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Pivoting a Tech Company into the Hospitality Industry | with Jeff Robbins · GAIN Momentum

• ​GAIN Momentum episode #43 - Pivoting a Tech Company into the Hospitality Industry | with Jeff Robbins === Jason Emanis: Welcome to another episode of the Gain Momentum podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from global industry leaders about how to grow and scale a business in hospitality, food service, travel, and technology. I am Jason Emanis here with my co host Adam Mogelonsky. Adam, how are you? Adam Mogelonsky: Fantastic. Jason Emanis: Very good. Today's guest is Jeff Robbins, founder of Guest Insight. Hello, Jeff. Jeff Robbins: Hi, Jason. Hi, Adam. Great to be here. Adam Mogelonsky: we structure our episodes around asking leaders four key questions, and then from there we get into some nitty gritty feedback. So the first question that we structure this round is, Jeff, when it comes to scaling a business, what is a single piece of advice you would give entrepreneurs from your perspective as a professional in hotel [00:01:00] technology? Jeff Robbins: well, I would say that this doesn't, is not only limited to hospitality or hotel technology, I would say it, translates to a lot of different kinds of businesses. But I would say that the main thing that folks should look at is, Keeping perspective or looking at your business from two main perspectives. One, obviously day to day, the nuts and bolts of what you do is important. You have your head down and you're delivering your product or your service your clients or your customers. But it's also important to look at your organization or your company from the outside, take an outside look in. Because you may need to adapt as time goes by, and especially in technology, that's important because technology changes so rapidly. So you have to always be seeing the big picture of where you fit into your industry and how you may, again, need to [00:02:00] adapt or even pivot. And that's something that we've had to do. Our business has been around for 25 years now. And, essentially we do the same thing that we've always done, but we also don't do the same thing we have always done. There have been changes, and I wouldn't say full pivots along the way, but there have been twists and turns along the way. Jason Emanis: yeah, and that's interesting that you put it that way, because as you were speaking, the first thing I'm thinking of is, you know, as a marketer, you try things and you look for social proof, you look for a little feedback and it's like, okay, did that hit or did I miss, or, you know, did they bring up something I didn't even think about? And, you know, I'm still curious if. in, you know, the past 20 years or so, who did you go get that feedback from maybe, outside of the company? Jeff Robbins: well, first and foremost, it's from your customers, or your Who [00:03:00] you hoped were going to be customers and didn't become your customers. So, you know, getting feedback from those two main groups, I guess, but you always have to, keep your eyes and ears open to what's going on in your industry too. So that, I guess that would be a third, source of getting feedback. But yeah, I mean, feedback is what we do. So we kind of practice what we preach. we want to make sure that we are, at least meeting the expectations of our own clients as well as helping our clients meet or exceed the expectations of their guests. So yeah, feedback is, um, I forgot who said it's the lifeblood of business, I believe. I forgot what, I forgot who, said that, but somebody did. I know that. Adam Mogelonsky: So, Jeff, you mentioned that Guest Insight has been around for 25 years, around that mark. That's a long, long time in the world of technology we live in today. And you've mentioned that there's been several pivots, during that time, but [00:04:00] pivots can be painful. So I'm wondering if you could pick apart one of those pivots that Guest Insight has gone through and get behind your mindset of knowing. That the pain was worth the trouble of going through that. Jeff Robbins: Well, I mean, my first, my gut reaction to that question is, a fear. I mean, sometimes if you don't pivot or make some sort of change or, bend in your, path, in your road, the fear is that it's not going to work for a very, for forever, certainly, but maybe for, not for very much longer. I'll give you, I guess. Well, first of all, you should know that this didn't start out as a hospitality or hotel only business. I come from consumer market research. I was in the analog world of consumer market research for a long time. I do have a tech background, so I was responsible for [00:05:00] bringing tech into the analog world of consumer market research back in the 80s, 90s. long time ago. And, company was founded as Database Sciences and our original goal was to become, a web based market research field service for consumer research. And that's how we started. and we were not looking specifically at the hotel. industry or the hospitality industry. We did have clients in that, in that industry, but it was not only, it was actually a small part of our practice. And so, in the early years, that's what we did. But over time, things changed around us. And, the way of collecting feedback, not only from hotel guests, but from consumers, changed. And it was accepted and adopted by the industry at large. And there were services that popped up around us, and some still exist today, [00:06:00] and we had competition in that. in that arena, if you will. And so I would say the key thing that made us sort of pivot at that point was that, there, a lot of self service tools started cropping up and that led to people starting to do their own market research. And in a lot of cases, especially in the early days, there was a lot of bad market research being done because those tools were available. To everybody. And we sort of focused on the idea that we were going to, in the beginning, um, stay the course and continue as an online market research field service. And it was not only the tools that we were providing, which meant the online survey platform and the reporting tools, but we had deep knowledge in market research, consumer market research, and so that was part of the service that we offer. But over time, what we saw happening was that. Even though there was a lot of [00:07:00] bad market research being done at that time, we sort of saw the writing on the wall that it was going to become more self service. And around that time, we, started doing some. customer satisfaction studies. They weren't ongoing. It wasn't, every day it wasn't transactional, but they were, some of them were runoffs and some of them were quarterly. And we started looking at that and saying, well, this is kind of interesting. You know, when we talk about scaling a business, when we first went into it, we weren't thinking of, we were just thinking of a consultancy with the tools of web based. surveys as, uh, you know, our key differentiator. We were one of the first to do that. We developed it ourselves. We were the first to do it. But over time we saw that maybe that's not the way to go. And it was scary because it was something that was completely different to, for us. Most of our projects were Yeah, we had, uh, we had clients that would come back to us over and over again, but they were [00:08:00] typically, ad hoc studies or one offs and, uh, you've completed a project, you moved on and you, you went to the next one. But this sort of became interesting to us because we saw the idea of what everybody really looks for now, recurring revenue and a subscription model. And so we went from. That being a very small part of our business to where we decided to focus. And we got into, we got into hotel, guest satisfaction, we're focused on it, I should say, because we had a few opportunities to provide that service for some hotels. and we decided to really, dig in on that one basically. But yeah, I mean it's fear, it's fear that what you're doing is. either not going to work as well as it has in the past or could go away completely. Adam Mogelonsky: Jeff, we're going to dive into our second question because you sort of touched on it with fear. What are some of the common pitfalls or failures you have witnessed [00:09:00] that business owners should look to avoid when scaling their business? Jeff Robbins: I guess the first one is not, not recognizing what's going on around you. I mean, it goes back to what I said before. Like if you're, if you always have your head down and you're doing what you're doing and we're, we're still, You know, I'll use our company as an example, if we continue to just keep our heads down and providing you know, those custom services for our consumer packaged goods clients, for example, over time, I guess you would see that, hey, we don't have as many studies as we as we used to and maybe at that point it's too late. So you have to always try to Both do your daily work and dig into what you're doing and providing to your customers or clients on a daily basis. But you also have to take a step back and see, is what we're doing still, as needed in the industry or industries that you're, practicing in, or is there change out there [00:10:00] that you're going to need to, respond to you. Sooner rather than later. So as a business owner or leader or manager, you have to always be looking at that, or you're gonna miss it. It's going to be too late. Jason Emanis: Yeah. I've, always been amazed that some of the leaders that can straddle the now while they're looking to the future. I mean, not. To Rod over at SHR where I spent five and a half years. He was always very practical with what we got to get done, as the CEO, but he always had a little investment, a little forward thinking always going on. And, um, I've been with a couple of leaders like that and like, cause I, I get heads down a lot. It's just like, Don't send me down a path of what could be. I got to, as a marketer, you know, I got to do right now. Jeff Robbins: And you know what? That's not a bad thing. That's something that's a trait that's important in being very [00:11:00] detail oriented, being a perfectionist and really, really delivering the goods for your clients. But it is hard to take that other perspective and it's great when you have somebody within your organization who can do it. It doesn't have to be, I guess it doesn't have to be the founder or the president as long as they recognize, and that's another thing we haven't really touched on and I guess we'll get there, is that the team that you have around you is so important. To, to scaling. and so that can be, you know, we have to all recognize what our strengths and weaknesses are. So if you are leading a company and you know that you're, you're the heads down guy that is going to be delivering to the clients and making sure it's perfect for your clients, you also know that you have to be looking to the outside and maybe you say, this is your role. You give, you hand that off. I think for me, I've always been that way. I mean, I wouldn't have been in this, I founded that business. So, or this business, it's, evolved to this business, but I saw the handwriting on the wall when I was in an analog market research business. [00:12:00] I said, We're not going to be walking around with clipboards and asking questions and checking them off. And then, and we were using, um, scanners to read it like the, the SATs, you know, the bubble, the bubbles on the, on the paper, we were reading it with scanners. I mean, I knew that that was going to go away, so you have to adapt and that was, so I've always had that mindset, I guess. I don't know. Bye. Jason Emanis: Fear. Jeff Robbins: Fear. Yeah, fear is good. Fear is a good motivator, I Jason Emanis: I, I work, uh, I work fear, fearful. I mean, who was it? It was like Jerry Rice, the, football receiver in the U. S. here that said he ran scared. Jeff Robbins: Yeah. Jason Emanis: He wasn't the fastest, he wasn't the biggest, he ran scared and he ran well. Jeff Robbins: It worked very well for him. Adam Mogelonsky: on the note of teams, Jeff, is finding people that can compliment your strengths. And that is much easier said than done. And if you look at a lot of companies, it's two people that have either worked together and they were [00:13:00] put together and by happenstance, they came together or they were friends in university or something like that. Jeff Robbins: I Adam Mogelonsky: has this idea for where to take a technology company or another company, but they can't do it themselves, and they know what their strengths are, they know roughly what they need to complement, uh, their strengths to actually scale and to get things done off the ground. Where do you go about finding somebody that you can trust as a partner in what is a going to be a long term relationship? Jeff Robbins: don't know if I have a really good answer for that. I've been lucky and I've been doing it for a long, a long time. And I think another thing that's important for me to share with everybody is that, we're talking about scaling a business and I think everybody means, makes the assumption that when you say you're scaling a business, like, especially in the technology world that we live in today. It means we want to grow as big and as fast as we can and have 10 million [00:14:00] subscribers or, you know, everybody, even on the social platforms, it's about how many views and just, blowing up. And for us, that was really never a goal. Again, we, we were go, we were, we had a consulting practice and we developed a tool that became a platform for that consulting practice. So. we never sought to be a platform for everybody. we wanted to grow in terms of, yes, of course we wanted to grow our client base, but we also knew that we didn't want to grow it to the point where it became technology only. We were always a, uh, business. We were always a people company first and the technology was, enabled us to do our job for our clients. So I think it's important, you know, we're not building an app, a consumer app that's, for the masses. So it's a little bit different, I think, when we talk about scaling in terms of that. as far as the [00:15:00] people, I mean, the people that we work with now for the most part are the people we worked with at the beginning. It's a very small team. Um, we outsource things. we're pretty good at figuring out what we don't want to do in house and what we shouldn't do in house and, we should get that outside of our organization. but, you know, traditional Networking and, I mean, now we have, you know, back in 2000, we didn't have LinkedIn to, to prospect for new, team members. And we obviously do now. And the hiring processes these days is a lot different than it was in 2000. The interviewing process is quite different. Way different than it was then. and applicants are expecting that now, you know, back then it was, you know, there was, there was a little more uncertainty when somebody walked through the door after you said you're hired. Um, now I think that we are able to have a better idea of who we're getting before they, you know, they actually sit down at their desk for the first day. [00:16:00] but, I don't know. I don't know if I have a great answer for that because we are a small group and we haven't, done a ton of hiring and we haven't had a ton of, bad experiences either. So I think that's important too. Yeah. Bad experiences inform the future. Hopefully you hopefully learn from your mistakes. Right. Adam Mogelonsky: It's nevertheless important, uh, to know, get inside the mindset of a company where, you know, you're, you, you keep a core team and then to bring new people in is, I don't want to use the word reticent, but you're conservative in that regard because you want to preserve the culture and, and the dynamic amongst that core group. Jeff Robbins: Yeah. And the point about culture is, Especially interesting these days. We are now a fully virtual company. We don't have an, we don't have a physical office anymore, and I think, you know, that may change again soon. I kind of miss seeing people more often in person. and I think that there's, uh, Good work can be done when you are under [00:17:00] the same roof or in the same space. but I think culture is certainly important. The culture of what you're delivering to your, how you treat each other and what you're delivering to your clients is important. And I think it's more challenging when people are not together all the time. So. I think that one is, uh, to be determined for us, like where that will, what that will look like a couple years from now, or even less. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, on the note of to be determined is into our third question, looking ahead. So Jeff, what do you see as the key opportunities and challenges for hospitality technology companies in 2024 and beyond? Jeff Robbins: Alright, well, I'm going to answer with the popular answer that all the cool kids are answering with these days, and talk about AI, right? Adam Mogelonsky: Oh Jeff Robbins: So, um, and I'm going to talk about that as an opportunity and a pitfall. I mean, since, since the, chat [00:18:00] GPT hit the headlines, I guess it's about a year ago and everyone started talking about AI and what it was going to do for us. And what it was going to do to us, I guess, is another way to, to look at it. everyone's trying to figure out you know, what it can do for their businesses. And so, in the hotel business specifically, I would say that one of the things that we have to, um, Be careful of is, first of all, the opportunity is great. It can do so many different things. We use it. Adam, you and I have talked in the past about this, that it helps us, it helps our coding team to, do things faster. yes, we're all good coders here, but, ChatGBT and, and the others, because there are others out there now, are great at, just. Working through the process of developing good code. You can't rely on it to do everything, but it can speed your development time and get more products or more [00:19:00] services and features out there quicker. So, there's great opportunity with that. We're going to see a lot of new features in existing software and we're going to see new software because of it. However We have to remember, I'm going to, I'm going to go back 25 years and put on my consumer market research hat here for a second and say, in the hotel, tech space, uh, we have to consider two main, consumers. One is the hotel teams that we're selling our, products and services to, and two are the hotel guests. And. there's great things we can probably do with AI now to really understand what guests want and need. And, and it's going to help, uh, hotel teams to, um, deliver goods and services to their guests, as well as manage their businesses and maybe sell more services, upsell once a guest is on property. But the other side of it, at the get, from the [00:20:00] guest standpoint. How much is too much? They may say, Oh, well, this is great. And then if you go too far, they say, well, Hmm, this might be a little creepy. So you have to understand, you know, what your guests want, and it's going to be different for different segments of guests, different types of properties, different service levels, and different types of types of guests in those properties. So I think that that's one of the key, Challenges for introducing AI into hotel technology. I mean, it's great. It's great for, as I said, coding development. It's great, again, you and I, Adam, have talked about this in the past, how it's great for analyzing data and developing, patterns or, or detecting patterns in, in open ended text responses to surveys, for instance. but when we start. You know, when we start talking about what it's going to do for a guest experience, I think that's where we have to be careful. What does a guest want? [00:21:00] artificial intelligence does a guest want to be involved in that overall experience? Some people probably don't want any. Some people just want to check in, go to their room and be left alone, right? And we have to figure out how to know who wants what. And maybe AI can do that too. Jason Emanis: Yeah, that's a good point. So many different types of guests. Jeff Robbins: Yeah. Jason Emanis: know. Jeff Robbins: I don't either, but I think, but again, there, there are certainly opportunity there, but there are challenges that come along with it as well. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, one of the traditional hunches that we have human biases or whatever you want to call it, For the deployment of technology has always been on my end working more so in the luxury end and the non acceptance of the whole movement towards online check in and kiosks because in the luxury end you want to deliver that more personalized experience. experience, or [00:22:00] luxury and resort, I should say. You want to have that personalize check in experience. And I'm wondering, when you talk about AI, embedding and different segments of hospitality, if you could give us some specific use cases where you think there is a point of delineation. between different segments like this may be appropriate for economy where it's just heads and beds and then this one over here is more appropriate where you want to map out that entire multi day itinerary like for like for a resort. Jeff Robbins: Well, I would actually say that we could flip that a little bit. So in a luxury, uh, hotel or resort, We could use AI to try to plan out itineraries or activities and services that people might want when they're staying there. However, as far as the contactless check in or the digital check in, I don't [00:23:00] necessarily know that people do that. want that in a luxury resort. They might want that personal touch. They want, might want to be, to feel that somebody, to have somebody personally assign that to them, to walk them through the check in process. Even if it's not necessary in this day and age, but they're paying a lot, they may want to feel that. that they're important enough to warrant one of the, you know, fewer people, fewer team members that are there to actually show them how special they are by walking them through that process. So I think, again, that's a fine line that you have to figure out. And again, as we collect More and more information from guests, post stay, we can, add to the database of knowledge that we have about each guest. And so hopefully down the line, we can learn their preferences and some people may want that personal check in experience and some people may not. But I think especially, you know, in [00:24:00] the, in a luxury, or resort, property, We should be able to deliver both, maybe? Depending on what the, what the guest who's paying a lot of money wants, right? Adam Mogelonsky: Well to drill down into what you're doing at Guest Insight and related to post a feedback and artificial intelligence. How are you looking to use artificial intelligence to increase engagement in the post stay context to thereby drive both improvements to the hotel and future personalizations for the guest? Jeff Robbins: well, we are using artificial intelligence first and foremost, or our first use of it, I should say, was to try to understand patterns in open ended text responses to guest surveys to help hotels. detect things that are not [00:25:00] covered necessarily in the, closed end question. So, you know, ranking scales and ranking of attributes and that kind, kind of thing. So that's the first use. Uh, the second use, is more about engagement. So we know getting back to what we talked about a while back, several minutes ago I think, messaging is becoming very, um, People are being bombarded by messaging from all kinds of different places right now. So we, we know, and we are always looking at this, that it's not good enough to send a guest one message about sharing their feedback with us or with the hotel, I should say. We need to, send out reminders. So we are using artificial intelligence to analyze The patterns of responses, like trying to understand what what the best time of day, what the best interval after a guest checks out. is to send that message, [00:26:00] what gets the most response. And it's not the same for every property, and it's not the same for every type of property, and it's not the same for every location or, general geographic areas. And then beyond that, so we know that we're not going to get the, best response from that first ask, if you will. And we have to figure out then the second interval, what's the best time to follow up? How many days later is the best time to follow up? And again, what time of day? And you have to go through all those different variations or permutations and figure out for each property. So, what's best. And we're getting better at it. We're getting higher response rates by tweaking that a little bit. But I think that's going to always be a, um, you know, that's an ongoing battle, especially as messaging, uh, still exists in the way it exists now. And we choose not to do it in, in a lot of different ways. we still just use email. We don't go the route of text. We can, but we choose [00:27:00] not to. and I know that texting has become a way that hotels are, some hotels are, are using texting or, on property management to keep guests engaged and, and have a dialogue with them once, while they're on property. And I don't know. I don't know. I, I think there needs to be some research done to see demographically, where, who that's going to resonate with and who that, who that is not going to resonate with. So, messaging is, uh, as it changes, I think we're going to have to, change with it and understand and possibly keep relying on AI to help us do that. Adam Mogelonsky: Makes perfect sense to me, Jeff. Now, moving into our fourth question related, you can draw on more, just to tie things off from your previous answers here. What are the key things innovative leaders and entrepreneurs should prioritize and focus on to gain traction for their business? So Jeff Robbins: in terms of the, their businesses and the business itself, I think [00:28:00] it's key to do what we said at the, at the outset of this, which is to maintain those various perspectives, both internally and focusing on head down, day to day, what are you delivering? As well as outside perspective, what's going on in the marketplace for your product or services around you? And, what kind of feedback are you getting from, both your, customers that you have as well as your prospects? As to, you know, why you are successful for some sales and why you're unsuccessful for others? to other potential clients and use that feedback to possi to, not possibly, to adapt your offerings. And then outside, as far as gaining traction, you have to, be cognizant of what's working in terms of, salesmanship and marketing in the current, the current world. 2024, obviously that's where we are now. Will it be the [00:29:00] same in 2025? I don't know, probably similar, but there will be, there will be changes over time. Certainly the environment that we are operating in now is different than the one when we launched back in 2000. So, you have to understand the best way to Get your messaging out there to potential clients. So, you know, I'll throw the ones out there that are probably no surprise to anybody at this point, but you have to generate content in this day and age to show that you know what you're talking about and you know what you're doing. So, that, content has to, take different forms, whether it's written word and blogs, um, video, podcasts, videos, Uh, you have to attend conferences. again, good old fashioned salesmanship, goes a long way. I mean, you still have to sell, in a lot of instances, you have to sell your products and services, especially in the hotel world, to people. And, it's unlikely that you're going to sell to [00:30:00] a, uh, again, you have to, I guess you have to look at the different types of hotel organizations that are out there. But it's If your target client is, uh, is one that operates many units or many properties, uh, they're not going to go to your website and sign up. You're going to have to, there's going to be people involved, you have to be able to, have the proper sales channels and sales process in place for that kind of sale. So, That's how you have to gain traction. Again, it depends on what you're selling and who you're selling it to and what size organization. There's going to be different nuances to how you do all this, but you have to do all those things in some way, shape, or form, no matter who you're selling to in the hotel business or, anywhere else for that matter. Jason Emanis: Yeah, I think selling software has changed quite a bit in the past three years. you, you nailed it. like I tell all my clients, I mean, you can write blog posts, but you need [00:31:00] to go where your buyers go to learn. And it's not necessarily they go to your website. So, be speaking at events, be The talking head speaking differently and intelligently on LinkedIn because they're there. Jeff Robbins: and you have to touch all those places because I mean, they're one of, just, just in being in one place is not going to do the trick. You have to be everywhere. But at the end of the day, it's people, right? People make the deals. yeah. Jason Emanis: And you gotta, yeah, people want to be educated before they talk to a salesperson more so than ever before. So when you communicate, educate all along the way, answer those questions for them so that When they do reach out and say, I want to talk to a salesperson, that is a meaningful conversation and it's not a bunch of tire kickers. Jeff Robbins: absolutely. Adam Mogelonsky: pick out one thing and, uh, Give you another, another hardball question here is looking specifically at hotels and travel. [00:32:00] You could be on the road 50 weeks of the year going to different trade shows and conferences to get face to face with people in order to sell face to face because this industry is people buying from people. What advice would you give to other vendors and entrepreneurs to decide? What conferences and trade shows to attend, which is a huge cost versus those that maybe are outside of budget. Jeff Robbins: that is a hardball question right there. I don't know if I have a good answer for that. you know, I think that, a lot of it does depend on, on budget. And I think that, a lot of it does depend on budget. And you have to try to do the best research you can to figure out, which of those conferences is going to, Get you in front of the most people. I guess I'm, I'm thinking early on, like early on in a company's existence or in a new [00:33:00] product or services existence. You want to, you want to get the most bang for your buck, especially if you don't have a lot of bucks. So you got to do your research there. I don't really know. What other advice I can give on that other than you do what you can afford, I think, right? You just try to maximize your marketing spend. You allocate a certain amount. I mean, sometimes you can, I guess, trade off and not do something else if you find that some good prospects are going to be at a conference that you didn't plan on being. I'm going to and, um, you know, delay something else, but that's risky also. So that's a tough one. That's a real tough one, Adam. Yeah, Jason Emanis: you could attend, like you can have a salesperson attend or a founder can attend and kind of go see what they see. Like maybe next year we want to exhibit here. You know, the other thing that, and I can't emphasize this enough with people, if you are. Out there being [00:34:00] seen in the marketplace, speaking differently and intelligently on a problem. you're more likely to get speaking gigs at these events. And so you can always throw your name in the hat for, you know, an educational track or whatever to these places that you want to be. And, you know, suddenly you're in the door and you didn't. You didn't have to spend a bunch, you're there and you can, you're most likely going to get the attendee list and then you can, reach out beforehand and get some meetings and it, uh, well worth, you know, that effort. Jeff Robbins: Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, if you can get those speaking engagements or speaking opportunities, that's terrific. And I think that, uh, what I mentioned before, and you, followed up on it, Jason, is that. You know, you, you do have to develop those blog posts and maybe podcast episodes and, white papers and all that. And that's not going to close sales for you, but it's going to give you. It's going to help to show that you're an expert in your [00:35:00] field, that you know what you're doing, and it can help you get those speaking opportunities too. When, you know, you throw, as you said, you throw your hat in the ring, and then the folks that are running whatever conference you've thrown it into, they're going to look and see, you know, what's, what's your body of work? Why do we want this guy to speak at our conference? And at least there's something there that they can fall back on, right? Adam Mogelonsky: I think that's a good place to end it, uh, with, you know, some hardball questions thrown at you, but, um, you know, talking about, you know, No, no. You at least, at least got a triple probably, uh, you know, yeah. On base as well. . Jason Emanis: You're Adam Mogelonsky: So, yeah. So Jeff, uh, you've given us some great, great answers here and some timeless wisdom. Can't thank you enough for coming on. Jeff Robbins: Thank you so much for having me. This was terrific. I really enjoyed it. talk soon, I guess. Adam Mogelonsky: Thanks.