Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SLAY SUSPECT BRYAN KOHBERGER COPIES SERIAL KILLER BTK, BIND/TORTURE/KILL

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SLAY SUSPECT BRYAN KOHBERGER COPIES SERIAL KILLER BTK, BIND/TORTURE/KILL · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: In the last hours slay suspect Brian Koberger in a
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: court of law for arraignment. He chose to neither enter
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: a guilty or a not guilty plea, instead opting to
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: quote stand silent in the open courtroom. Why, I'm Nancy Grace.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: at Fox Station and serious xem one eleven. First of all,
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  Speaker 2: listen to this and miss Taylor.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: He's mister Coberger prepared to please to these charges priority.
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: All the saxe because to mister Kilberger is send silent.
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  Speaker 4: I'm going to enter and I'm guilty. Please, I show
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: has one, two, three, four and five. Now at this juncture,
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  Speaker 4: I would say it has sixty days to give notice
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  Speaker 4: of attention to see.
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  Speaker 3: If gut Then was here.
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  Speaker 2: Is anyone surprised, because I am not surprised. Coburger quote
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  Speaker 2: stood silent. There are many theories about why he did it,
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  Speaker 2: but let me just throw this one out there. We
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: hear him speak a little bit in the courtroom. We
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: hear certain answers. Could it be he did not want
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: to speak any more than he had to because he
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: did not want a witness, an ear witness from the
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: time of the murder. I'm referring specifically to Dylan Mortensen,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: who heard someone at the time of the murder say
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: something to the effect of it's okay, I'll help you.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I'm here to help you. If Dylan Morton's here's Brian
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Coberger's voice. Can she make a positive identification that it
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: was Coburger's voice she heard the night of the murders
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: at the murder Saine. The standing silent is in response
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  Speaker 2: to this, all right, I'm going.
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: To read you the charges on the indictment, starting.
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  Speaker 5: With count one.
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  Speaker 4: Burglary as a felony under Idaho Code Section eighteen, at.
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  Speaker 6: One four zero one and.
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  Speaker 4: One four zero three. This allegis that you honor about
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  Speaker 4: November thirteen, twenty twenty two, the Layta County, State of Idaho,
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  Speaker 4: did unlawfully enter a residence located at one one two
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  Speaker 4: two King Rode, Moscow with an attempt to commit the
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  Speaker 4: felony crime of murder. This allegis that you honor about
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  Speaker 4: November thirteen, twenty twenty two, the Laytak County, State of Idaho,
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  Speaker 4: it unlawfully entrew a residence located at one one, two
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  Speaker 4: two King rode Moscow with an attempt to commit the
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  Speaker 4: felony crime of murder count two murder in the first degree.
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  Speaker 4: This alleges that you honor about November thirteenth, twenty twenty two,
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  Speaker 4: in Laytak County, State of Idaho, did lowfully, unlawfully, deliberately,
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  Speaker 4: with premeditation and with malice at fourtho killed and murder
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  Speaker 4: Madison Mogan Kayla Cosalez Zana pernodle Ethan chapin is signed
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  Speaker 4: on May sixteen, twenty twenty.
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  Speaker 5: Three by the presiding Grand Jury Jury.
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  Speaker 2: You are hearing the judge outlined the murder charges against him,
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  Speaker 2: and also we hear for the first time mention of
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  Speaker 2: the death penalty.
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  Speaker 6: Listen or counts two, three, four, and five murder in
• 3:58
  Speaker 6: their first degree asimum penalties of life in prison or
• 4:03
  Speaker 6: the death penalty.
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  Speaker 4: Find about the fifty thousand dollars are both fine and
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  Speaker 4: a life in prison or the death penalty, restitution for
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: the victims economic losses resulting from crime. Also an additional
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: fine of up to five thousand dollars to be paid
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  Speaker 4: directly to the Inner Standards if you are found guilty
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  Speaker 4: or fleet guilty on each charge and a maximum sentences
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  Speaker 4: are in post consecutive critic compartments, one right after the other,
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  Speaker 4: you could be facing ten years in prison followed by
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  Speaker 4: four consecutive life sentences or death penalties. Finds about to
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  Speaker 4: two hundred thousand.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: You're hearing Judge John Judge speaking with me an all
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: star panel to make sense of what we know right now.
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  Speaker 2: First to Chris McDonough joining US, director of the Cold
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Case Foundation, former homicide detective, and hosts of YouTube channel
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: The Interview Room. Chris, are you surprised that on some
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: questions he would say yes, yes, yes, a single word,
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  Speaker 2: but when it came time to say not guilty, he
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  Speaker 2: quote stood silent.
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  Speaker 7: No, I'm not surprised, Nancy. But your point about that
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  Speaker 7: voice match potential for that witness is, you know, I
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  Speaker 7: got a shiver when I heard it because I had
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  Speaker 7: not considered that personally, And I think you're right on
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  Speaker 7: target there. He is in this control mechanism even there
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  Speaker 7: in the courtroom, and he wants to again mitigate his
• 5:35
  Speaker 7: risk and relationship to that or he's mentoring, you know,
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  Speaker 7: back to the individuals that he studied in his in
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  Speaker 7: his course studies in relationship to his assigned books from
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  Speaker 7: his professor, specifically Dennis Rader, who also stood silent.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, that's a really good comparison. Could you explain that place?
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean when when bt K went before the court,
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  Speaker 7: he had his attorney said the exact same thing and
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  Speaker 7: and elevated himself. You know, the thought process is by
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  Speaker 7: having a judge declare his you know, not guilty.
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  Speaker 2: Why do you say that elevated himself.
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  Speaker 7: Well, you're sitting there and you have a judge telling
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  Speaker 7: the world, Well, I'll just go ahead and tell the
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  Speaker 7: world you're not guilty, that you're that you're you're standing silent.
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  Speaker 7: And BTK relished it. And then later on, of course,
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  Speaker 7: when he saw the extent of the evidence, then he
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  Speaker 7: came forward with his you know now infamous confession to
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  Speaker 7: the to the world.
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  Speaker 2: Very very compelling because we know that uh Coburger has
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  Speaker 2: taken a very unusual interest in Dennis Dennis writer bt
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  Speaker 2: K by torture kill serial killer. In fact, there was
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  Speaker 2: much speculation that the two had been in contact. Very
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  Speaker 2: compelling argument, along with the theory that he does not
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  Speaker 2: want his voice repeatedly out there for Dylan Mortensen or Frankly,
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  Speaker 2: the other survivor to be able to identify him Bethany.
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  Speaker 2: So you've got Dylan and Bethany there that night. We
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  Speaker 2: don't really know what Bethany heard or didn't hear, because
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  Speaker 2: her statement has not been made public. Very curious. What
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  Speaker 2: about this tie into it? And I'm going to go
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  Speaker 2: to Karen Stark joining US renowned psychologists joining us out
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  Speaker 2: of Manhattan. You can find her at Karenstark dot com.
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  Speaker 2: It's Karen with a C. Karen, what about this complete
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  Speaker 2: disdain for the judicial system, for our jury system, for
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  Speaker 2: our judges. You know, a judge in herself or himself
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  Speaker 2: are not the law, But like our president is not
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  Speaker 2: the US government, they represent. The president represents our country,
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  Speaker 2: represents our government. The judge represents the law. And you know,
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  Speaker 2: Coburger seemingly have you ever have you read the accounts
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  Speaker 2: of how students that were in school with him, coworkers
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  Speaker 2: say he always had to be right, He always had
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  Speaker 2: to point out when other people were wrong about anything.
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  Speaker 2: He loved being smarter than thou. I could see him
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  Speaker 2: bearing great disdain for the judge and for our judicial system.
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  Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, think about his personality. I mean, this guy,
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  Speaker 8: he's so narcissistic. He actually studied the killers, wanted to
• 9:00
  Speaker 8: know more about it. He had no hesitation to tell
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  Speaker 8: other people that they were wrong, people that that learned
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  Speaker 8: underneath him, that other students, they just felt that he
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  Speaker 8: was so arrogant and think of what it takes to if,
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  Speaker 8: in fact he is guilty do what he did. And
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  Speaker 8: I felt like even when he was stopped, when the
• 9:28
  Speaker 8: police stopped him and he was attempting to have a
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  Speaker 8: good exchange with them, that he wasn't even at that
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  Speaker 8: point able to show that, oh gee, I'm really really
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  Speaker 8: sorry it's anything. It seemed more like his father was
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  Speaker 8: than he was. So I don't feel like this is
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  Speaker 8: a guy who feels like anybody knows more than he does.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace, You.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Know, I want to go back to and guys on
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: the panel. Remember we're not having high t at Winsor
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Castle with Charles and Camilla. Jump in if you have
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  Speaker 2: a thought, Chris McDonough, do you remember how his colleagues
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  Speaker 2: and co students disliked him because he was always correcting them,
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  Speaker 2: always had to have the last word, always had to
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  Speaker 2: be right about everything. Do you remember that?
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  Speaker 7: Yes? Absolutely so?
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  Speaker 2: How does that have. How does that connect to his
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  Speaker 2: choice to basically not even acknowledge the judge.
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  Speaker 7: Well, you know, to the doc statement, you know, to
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  Speaker 7: dovetail into the dark statement a moment ago as well
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  Speaker 7: the fact that he is, you know, projecting this total
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  Speaker 7: control over all everything. And and now you think about
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  Speaker 7: how he's convincing those around him by just dominance of
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  Speaker 7: you know, conversations, dominance of you know, even his colleague
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  Speaker 7: in his understudies where the kid was saying, look, you
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  Speaker 7: know you've got to stop, you know, you've got to
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  Speaker 7: be serious for a minute. I got to take your picture.
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  Speaker 7: And he was able to, you know, in a quick second,
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  Speaker 7: just flip that switch and pose for those photographs. And so,
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  Speaker 7: you know, as the doc can tell us, you know,
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  Speaker 7: we live three lives, our private life, our secret life,
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  Speaker 7: and our public persona. So everything that he is doing
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  Speaker 7: right now is in the secret persona, but he's projecting
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  Speaker 7: it into a public persona, Joe. You know, the doc
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  Speaker 7: I'm sure can get into the psychology of how deep
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  Speaker 7: that goes. But what Corburger is Corburger is doing right
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  Speaker 7: now is he is now taking this stage to the
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  Speaker 7: court room and he's projecting this dominance, and yesterday was
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  Speaker 7: another perfect example of that. What better way to have
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  Speaker 7: his message told than by a judge in the highest
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  Speaker 7: court in Idaho in relationship to the superior court where
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  Speaker 7: he's presenting himself in the judge shay, Okay, well, I'll
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  Speaker 7: go ahead and put in the not guilty for you.
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  Speaker 2: Because you don't deign to speak, I'll do it for you.
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  Speaker 2: Why did Brian Coberger quote stand silent? Is it because
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  Speaker 2: he doesn't want the witnesses, the survivors to identify his
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  Speaker 2: voice by speaking out in court? Is it because he
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  Speaker 2: has an odd connection to BTK buying torture killed Dennis Raider,
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  Speaker 2: who did the same thing in court? Or is it
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  Speaker 2: because he has such disdain for the judge, for our
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  Speaker 2: justice system. We know he treated colleagues, co teaching assistants,
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  Speaker 2: students in that manner very disdainfully. But here's a big
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  Speaker 2: indicator the way he talked down to a lady cop
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  Speaker 2: that very simply warned him about pulling into a crosswalk
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  Speaker 2: when people were walking at the crosswalk. Listen to this, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: So I found it.
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  Speaker 9: So I don't know what in Pennsylvania to the where
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  Speaker 9: you go to find law Lisbon in Washington. It's called
• 13:34
  Speaker 9: the Revice Code of Washington, So I'll try to turn
• 13:37
  Speaker 9: my brightness up. But it's basically it's just called an RCW.
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  Speaker 9: So it's RCW forty six sixty one dot two zero two.
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  Speaker 9: So it's no driver shall enter an intersection unless there's
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  Speaker 9: significant space on the other side of the intersection to
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  Speaker 9: accommodate the vehicle. He is operating without obstructing the passage
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  Speaker 9: of other vehicles despite any control signals, signal indications proceeds.
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  Speaker 9: So you had a green light, so you're thinking you
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  Speaker 9: can go, but you're blocking the intersection straight out.
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  Speaker 2: She's a special guest joining us. Tracy Brown, author of
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: How to Detect Li's Fraud and Identity Theft. Tracy Brown
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  Speaker 2: at body Languagetrainer dot com. Tracy, I mean he made
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  Speaker 2: the lady cop go and research the law about pulling
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  Speaker 2: your car into a crosswalk with people walking across it.
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  Speaker 2: He did not accept that she was going to give
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  Speaker 2: him a warning for doing that. He had her pull
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  Speaker 2: the law. Are you surprised at all? He made The
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  Speaker 2: judge entered the not guilty plea for him and refused
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  Speaker 2: to speak.
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  Speaker 10: I am not surprised, and I think, really what he
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  Speaker 10: was going for, and I think what everybody was hinting
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  Speaker 10: at is it is. Actually it's called a prestige suggestion.
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  Speaker 2: Whoa hold on, I got write that round right? That down?
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  Speaker 2: Prestige suggestion. What's that?
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  Speaker 10: Well, that's when you get you. People are more readily
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  Speaker 10: accepting of a comment from someone of prestige. Right. So
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  Speaker 10: it could be a dentist when you go into the
• 15:15
  Speaker 10: dentist and they say that you need some kind of treatment,
• 15:19
  Speaker 10: Well you must because they're a dentists, right, same thing here,
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  Speaker 10: So prestige suggestion from a judge, Well you got to
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  Speaker 10: believe a judge. What could possibly be wrong with the judge?
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  Speaker 7: Right?
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  Speaker 10: And so it's just that little bit of extra prestige
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  Speaker 10: to something to make you consider what's really being said.
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  Speaker 2: Differently, Prestige suggestion. So how does that factor in Tracy
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: to him quote standing silent when it was time to interplace, Well.
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  Speaker 10: I think he's depending on that prestige to start to
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  Speaker 10: change public opinion.
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  Speaker 2: Well it didn't as far as I can tell, it didn't.
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  Speaker 10: I don't think so, But he's got to try.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: You might as well try something if you ran up
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: at lands is that Karen started jumping Karen.
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  Speaker 8: Yes. Well, I also want to point out that he
• 16:08
  Speaker 8: was He had no problem stating very firmly that he
• 16:13
  Speaker 8: understood what was being.
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  Speaker 10: Said to him.
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  Speaker 2: Oh my stars, Karen Starr, you just read my mind.
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  Speaker 7: Jack.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Could you play our cut four three five uberger.
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  Speaker 3: Do you understand the charge in count why perfect yes?
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  Speaker 3: Do you understand the maximum penalty yes? Do you understand
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  Speaker 3: the charge in count two murder in the first three yes.
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  Speaker 3: Do you understand the maximum health yes? Do you understand
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  Speaker 3: charge count three murder in the first three yes. Do
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  Speaker 3: you understand the maximum healt yes? Do you understand the
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  Speaker 3: charge in count four murder in the first degree yes?
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  Speaker 4: Do you understand the mathma health yes? Do you understand
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  Speaker 4: the charge in count five immerging on the first scar?
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: Do you understand the massimum patty?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, you're absolutely right, Karen Stark very forcefully. Yes. And
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  Speaker 2: I also noticed, you know, Karen, no matter what judge
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  Speaker 2: I was in front of, didn't matter what judge, even
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: if it was a when I got sworn in at
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: the US Supreme Court, all the way down to a
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  Speaker 2: traffic judge, doesn't matter. I would always say yes, sir,
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  Speaker 2: or yes, ma'am or yes judge to show respect for
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  Speaker 2: this person. Whether I liked the judge or thought that
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: they were a lunatic, it didn't matter. They still represented
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: our judicial system. And you see Coburger putting, you know,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: just like Tracy Brown was talking about prestige suggestion, putting
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: himself on the same level as the judge in a
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: court of law instead of showing any respect by saying
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: sir or ma'am, that's not going to happen with kay
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Broker now.
• 18:04
  Speaker 11: And then Nancy have another idea too, is that I
• 18:07
  Speaker 11: think you know, as much as we speak about the
• 18:10
  Speaker 11: recording of his voice and people hearing it, there are
• 18:12
  Speaker 11: recordings of his voice, whether through the bodycam video with
• 18:15
  Speaker 11: police stopped him and interviews which maybe if they can
• 18:18
  Speaker 11: be entered in and suppressed as evidence, could be heard
• 18:21
  Speaker 11: by the witnesses. My view is that this is really
• 18:25
  Speaker 11: about him being smarter than everyone else, him studying him,
• 18:28
  Speaker 11: wanting to be smarter when out smart investigators. He wanted
• 18:31
  Speaker 11: to do things that would be not traceable to him.
• 18:34
  Speaker 11: He was trying to commit this kind of I believe
• 18:36
  Speaker 11: the allegation here is that he was trying to commit
• 18:39
  Speaker 11: kind of his perfect crime and as a result, he's
• 18:42
  Speaker 11: going to put the full burden of proof, full burden
• 18:45
  Speaker 11: everything on the prosecution to basically say, here I am,
• 18:49
  Speaker 11: you got to come after me, you got to give
• 18:50
  Speaker 11: me everything you have.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: They smarter than everyone else. I think you're hearing Bill
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: Daily right now, former FBI investigator, forensic photography security expert. Bill.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: I think you're right.
• 19:02
  Speaker 8: Karen Stark wag In, He's definitely he's correct.
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  Speaker 12: Man.
• 19:06
  Speaker 8: See, this is an arrogant guy. There's no difference there.
• 19:11
  Speaker 8: This guy is going to show you that he knows
• 19:14
  Speaker 8: the law absolutely and he is smarter than everybody, and
• 19:20
  Speaker 8: he's going to get away with this. I don't think
• 19:23
  Speaker 8: this guy is afraid. I really don't. I think he
• 19:26
  Speaker 8: believes that he's going to be found.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Dennison, Now, I want to go to Tara Malick joining us,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: a high profile lawyer out of that jurisdiction in Idaho,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: and you can find her at Smith Malik dot com. Tara,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: thanks for being with us. What about the theory that
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: this whole standing silent move in the courtroom by Brian
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Coberger and clearly his lawyer was on board with it,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Ann Taylor, They don't have the insanity defense in Idaho,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: but how about somehow lying the ground for an incompetency defense.
• 20:00
  Speaker 13: You know, I don't know that it's an incompetency defense,
• 20:04
  Speaker 13: because as we heard on that clip, he said, yes,
• 20:07
  Speaker 13: he understood the charges. So you know, I think that
• 20:10
  Speaker 13: and I agree with the other panelists and what.
• 20:13
  Speaker 10: They've been saying.
• 20:13
  Speaker 13: You know, he's this narcissist. He's trying to kind of
• 20:16
  Speaker 13: gain control but.
• 20:17
  Speaker 10: Himself above the judge.
• 20:19
  Speaker 13: I think the other thing that standing silent does as
• 20:23
  Speaker 13: far as a strategy, is if there are negotiations ongoing
• 20:28
  Speaker 13: right now behind the scenes, you know, to take the
• 20:31
  Speaker 13: death penalty off the table or who knows what with
• 20:33
  Speaker 13: the prosecution, it's a bargaining tchip that they can save
• 20:37
  Speaker 13: and they can say and kind of save face a
• 20:39
  Speaker 13: little bit and be like, he didn't enter and not
• 20:41
  Speaker 13: guilty plea. He wasn't doubling down and saying he was
• 20:44
  Speaker 13: not guilty. What he was doing was standing silent, you know,
• 20:47
  Speaker 13: defaulting to the not guilty and then using that later on.
• 20:52
  Speaker 13: You know, he has that right to stand silent. The
• 20:55
  Speaker 13: other thing that came to mind when I heard that
• 20:57
  Speaker 13: he stood silent was that they don't have all the
• 21:00
  Speaker 13: discovery yet. You know, there's a pending motion to compel
• 21:03
  Speaker 13: by the defense against the state. I think the state
• 21:06
  Speaker 13: has turned over over ten thousand documents and several thousand
• 21:10
  Speaker 13: photographs already, but they're requesting more information and think there's
• 21:13
  Speaker 13: more information out there, and if they don't have all
• 21:16
  Speaker 13: the discovery yet, you know, they may not be able
• 21:19
  Speaker 13: to assess right now what he's going to do. And
• 21:22
  Speaker 13: so standing silent would give them some leeway there as well,
• 21:25
  Speaker 13: to say, you know, I can't even advise my client
• 21:28
  Speaker 13: one way or another because I don't have all the
• 21:30
  Speaker 13: information yet.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, Tara. Typically, even at the outset, when
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: all the discovery has not been handed over, the defendant
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: will enter a not guilty plea. The law is that
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: when a defendant refuses to speak, the court will presume
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: the defendant wishes to enter a not guilty plea and
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: enter it for the defendant. That is the Fifth Amendment
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: right to remain silent as it has been interpreted US
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: and state case law. So when a defendant won't interplea,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: the law presumes a not guilty not guilty plea is intended.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: That's really good reasoning Tar Malik. Another issue, guys, have
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: you ever heard of solve sets sovereign citizens? You know
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: the ones that, yeah, I hear you laughing, so you
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: are familiar. They are the ones that, for instance, refuse
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: to acknowledge the I R S is real, And so
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: they sit in the can in the Pokey jail prison
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: for a really long time until they go, Okay, yeah,
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: the I R S Is real, I will pay my taxes.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Long story short, solve SIT says that they are autonomous
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: and they are basically a citizen of the world and
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: do not recognize any sovereign over them, i e. The government,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: the judge, they anybody, We've all heard of the people,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: And it's usually have you noticed to Bill or Chris,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Karen Tara, anybody on the panel that it's usually about taxes.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: That's when they suddenly refuse to acknowledge a sovereign is
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: when it comes to paying taxes. Everything else fine, I'll
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: stop at the red light, but I'm not gonna pay
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: my taxes. Have you guys noticed that.
• 23:32
  Speaker 10: They don't like to.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah they don't. Yeah, when they get a ticket,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: they no longer agree with the traffic rules. Yes, that's
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: a good point. Maybe it's a solve set. I don't know,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: but I do know that that is what has happened
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: in court. Take a listen to our cup four three eight.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: By the way, I do want to.
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: Let everybody know, if they don't already know this, that
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: once the grand jury issuing nagement, polluter and hearing schedule
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: to start out of June twenty six was no longer
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: needed and it's vacated. So you get confused about that.
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: So I think, thank counsel and I am a media
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: and the public for your attention and the staff.
• 24:18
  Speaker 7: So you are a journey.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: There are many ways to charge someone formally with a
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: felony like murder. You can have a single prosecutor draw
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: up what it's called an information. They just write it
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: up themselves and say hey, you're formally charged. You're going
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: to trial. You can have a preliminary hearing like in
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: the AJ Simpson case, where witnesses are called, they can
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: be cross examined an a judge then quote binds the
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: case over to the correct court such as a superior
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: court for trial. Or you can have eight grand jury proceeding,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: which is what was held this time. By having the
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: grand jury hand down the charges that got rid of
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: the need for a preliminary hearing, So the preliminary hearing
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: except for June, is now off. I want to mention
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: again the behavior of Brian Coburger in the courtroom, and
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: I watched defendants like a hawk to see if I
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: can learn anything from their behavior their demeanor. Nicole Parton,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: joining us Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Nicole, I
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: played and replayed Coburger going in and out of the courtroom.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: He very carefully trained his gaze on anything but the victims' families.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: What did you see, Nicole.
• 25:43
  Speaker 12: Parton, Absolutely, I noticed the very same thing Nancy and
• 25:48
  Speaker 12: I also have heard witnesses that were in the courtroom
• 25:51
  Speaker 12: saying that members of Cayley's family kept their eyes locked
• 25:55
  Speaker 12: on him, but he refused to even look their way.
• 25:59
  Speaker 12: He only he looked at his attorney. I also noticed
• 26:02
  Speaker 12: that yesterday, compared to the previous videos and photos we've
• 26:06
  Speaker 12: seen of him, he is not as frail in thin
• 26:09
  Speaker 12: now Physically he looked stronger. He also doesn't have those
• 26:13
  Speaker 12: scratches and marks on the side of his face that
• 26:16
  Speaker 12: we saw in previous court events, so he looked physically different.
• 26:21
  Speaker 12: But he had that focus, not looking at any family members,
• 26:24
  Speaker 12: not looking at anyone in the courtroom, and just sitting there,
• 26:28
  Speaker 12: gazed into his attorney that one little, little small smile
• 26:32
  Speaker 12: that he gave her.
• 26:33
  Speaker 11: And that was in.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: To Tracy Brown, body language expert and author of How
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: to Detect Li's Fraud and Identity Theft. What do you
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: at Coyburger's behavior in court?
• 27:02
  Speaker 10: Well, I thought there was really a lot to see.
• 27:05
  Speaker 10: And let's let's start with how he walked in And
• 27:07
  Speaker 10: you all mentioned his his gaze. What which which is true?
• 27:13
  Speaker 10: Which let me there was a couple of clues that
• 27:16
  Speaker 10: said he was emotionally unaffected by the proceedings. For one,
• 27:24
  Speaker 10: did not show emotion on his face. Okay, but here's
• 27:28
  Speaker 10: here's what's more interesting is that he did not protect
• 27:33
  Speaker 10: himself like we would normally see someone walk into the courtroom.
• 27:37
  Speaker 10: So his his arms were out into the side. He
• 27:40
  Speaker 10: was making himself a little bit bigger. Now, some of
• 27:41
  Speaker 10: that had to do with him wearing which I think
• 27:43
  Speaker 10: was a bulletproof vest, but his arms were hanging down
• 27:49
  Speaker 10: to his sides. Usually we'd see someone protect themselves in
• 27:53
  Speaker 10: some kind of way. With arms in front of them
• 27:55
  Speaker 10: at least a little bit. So excuse me, so that
• 27:58
  Speaker 10: this lets me know, Okay, wait a minute, this guy
• 28:01
  Speaker 10: doesn't think he has anything to protect himself from. Now
• 28:05
  Speaker 10: beyond that, he does not when he's sitting there, he
• 28:09
  Speaker 10: does not show any adapters or pacifiers. And what those
• 28:15
  Speaker 10: boil down to are small little movements that really stress,
• 28:19
  Speaker 10: Small little repetitive movements. Right, So he didn't put his
• 28:22
  Speaker 10: hand to his forehead, he didn't lean on his elbows,
• 28:24
  Speaker 10: he didn't smooth down his pants, right, those kinds of things.
• 28:28
  Speaker 10: He didn't run his hands through his hair, none of that.
• 28:31
  Speaker 10: I have never seen anyone without these kinds of movements
• 28:37
  Speaker 10: in what's such what you'd think would be such a
• 28:41
  Speaker 10: pressure field situation, which let me know he does not
• 28:44
  Speaker 10: emotionally connect to the pressure that's around him, like just
• 28:50
  Speaker 10: not protecting himself, not letting off any anxiety at all. Now,
• 28:56
  Speaker 10: we hinted at some of this earlier. I think from
• 29:00
  Speaker 10: the way that he actually didn't move his head because
• 29:03
  Speaker 10: he was very straight on the whole time, it tells
• 29:05
  Speaker 10: me he's a really analytical linear secer in my experience,
• 29:08
  Speaker 10: that's what we see, and he doesn't do emotions well,
• 29:12
  Speaker 10: So I thought that was not necessarily uncharacteristic of someone
• 29:16
  Speaker 10: who's likely been involved in this kind of situation. Now
• 29:20
  Speaker 10: here's what's most interesting is that we didn't see any
• 29:24
  Speaker 10: wrinkles in his forehead. And our forehead is the part
• 29:30
  Speaker 10: of us that's the hardest to control. It's almost impossible
• 29:34
  Speaker 10: to do, so that's what we'd see is stress mark,
• 29:38
  Speaker 10: stress lines across the forehead if he was stressed. He
• 29:42
  Speaker 10: didn't show a drop of stress at all about anything.
• 29:46
  Speaker 10: The only time I've seen anything like that was similar
• 29:50
  Speaker 10: was with Lee Harvey Oswald who killed Kennedy. He didn't
• 29:52
  Speaker 10: show any stress when he was on camera either. So
• 29:58
  Speaker 10: his is a blink rate was super slow. Okay, So
• 30:04
  Speaker 10: that says, okay, wait a minute, there may be something
• 30:06
  Speaker 10: going on there or as far as stress goes inside
• 30:09
  Speaker 10: that he's trying to hold back, or he he could
• 30:16
  Speaker 10: be staring out at what's going on, trying to emotionally
• 30:21
  Speaker 10: disconnect from a situation. But I don't think there's a
• 30:24
  Speaker 10: lot of connection there to start with. Like he sounds
• 30:27
  Speaker 10: fully aware, I think he just wasn't able, like mentally
• 30:30
  Speaker 10: to connect to the gravity of what's going on.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: You know what I compare it to, and I want
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: everybody to jump in, Karen, Chris, Bill, Nicole, and doctor
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Kendall Crown's coming right back to you. He would not
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: look at the victims' families sitting in the courtroom, some
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: of them anyway. And I remember in my own experience
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: coming down off the witness stand and my fiance's Marty
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: tru and I looked at the defense attorneys and they
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: all look down. I looked at the defendant and he
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: looked down. I find that significant. What about it, Chris mcdonney,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: You've seen plenty of homicide defendants.
• 31:14
  Speaker 7: Nancy Sill. My take on him in relationship to that
• 31:18
  Speaker 7: is again, remember he wore the perpetrator here warm math,
• 31:25
  Speaker 7: and it was just enough to where the eyewitness could
• 31:29
  Speaker 7: only see partial, you know, pieces of that individual's identity
• 31:36
  Speaker 7: in this case where he walks into that courtroom, does
• 31:39
  Speaker 7: not make eye contact with anybody in relationship to you know,
• 31:44
  Speaker 7: who the victims are here. That again, I read that,
• 31:49
  Speaker 7: as you know, Leather or mine, I control the whole
• 31:57
  Speaker 7: scenario here. I control that before it happened, I controlled
• 32:01
  Speaker 7: it when it happened, and now I'm going to control
• 32:04
  Speaker 7: it after it happened, and so by him not acknowledging it,
• 32:09
  Speaker 7: it's almost Remember, these guys and the doc can break
• 32:14
  Speaker 7: into this, are much deeper. These guys do these things
• 32:18
  Speaker 7: at night because deep down inside, it's this idea that says,
• 32:23
  Speaker 7: I am nothing, Joe. Remember if you pull that mask off,
• 32:28
  Speaker 7: everybody goes that's the guy. And you know what, that
• 32:32
  Speaker 7: guy's really weird and he's been weird blah blah blah.
• 32:36
  Speaker 7: And you go back and look in their history and
• 32:39
  Speaker 7: sure enough they were, and we start seeing evidence of
• 32:43
  Speaker 7: that just on with this guy. You know, the tinderbates,
• 32:48
  Speaker 7: and we can keep going on. But what he's doing
• 32:51
  Speaker 7: there is telling that family, no, they belong to me.
• 32:58
  Speaker 7: I'm in control and I'm not going to let you in.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm just thinking through everything that happened, Bill
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Daily joining me form or FBI investigator forensic photography and
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: security expert. Did you notice he trained his eyes on
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: his lawyer and the defense table and would not look
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: at the victim's families at all.
• 33:22
  Speaker 11: Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. And what they were all getting around
• 33:25
  Speaker 11: here too, is that he's emotionally vacant. And even during
• 33:28
  Speaker 11: the car stops when we saw the body cam footage,
• 33:31
  Speaker 11: and all the way through he just has this kind
• 33:33
  Speaker 11: of vacant look on his face. But I think it
• 33:35
  Speaker 11: actually goes a bit more deeper than that. I think
• 33:37
  Speaker 11: as he's standing there and not willing to say to
• 33:42
  Speaker 11: put it forward to plee if not guilty, he's already
• 33:44
  Speaker 11: thinking down the road as to how he's going to
• 33:46
  Speaker 11: try to unravel the prosecution's purpose of going forward to
• 33:52
  Speaker 11: forensic evidence. I think he's looking already, and I imagine
• 33:55
  Speaker 11: what we're going to see him be very active with
• 33:57
  Speaker 11: his attorney and trying to pull apart it's by piece
• 34:01
  Speaker 11: the forensic evidence, whether it's change of custody like we
• 34:04
  Speaker 11: saw on the OJ Simpson trial, or whether it's through
• 34:07
  Speaker 11: questionable laboratory techniques they didn't try to suppress as much
• 34:11
  Speaker 11: as he can, And I think that's where he already is.
• 34:13
  Speaker 11: I think he's already down the road trying to outsmart
• 34:16
  Speaker 11: the court, outsmart the prosecution.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: To doctor Kendall Crown's chief medical examiner, Terran County. That's
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: fort Worth Lecturer, University Texas Austin TCU Medical School, doctor
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Kendall Crowns. The one thing he did not want to
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: hear about at all, is what happened to these victims?
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Before we close today, I don't want our discussion to
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: be just about strategy technique. Could you please explain what
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: happened to these for victims.
• 35:00
  Speaker 14: So, all the individuals were stabbed multiple times with a
• 35:05
  Speaker 14: k bar type knife, and that's the type knife that's
• 35:08
  Speaker 14: the Marine Corps is issued, so it's a relatively large
• 35:13
  Speaker 14: kind of hunting knife, but used for hand to hand combat.
• 35:17
  Speaker 14: They were all stabbed multiple times about their bodies a
• 35:21
  Speaker 14: large evidently larger gaping wounds, so there's probably a fair
• 35:25
  Speaker 14: amount of movement in the stab wounds as well. So
• 35:30
  Speaker 14: I would think that they each individually were probably over
• 35:35
  Speaker 14: stabbed more than once because usually in these situations it's
• 35:38
  Speaker 14: hard to just stab a person one time and have
• 35:42
  Speaker 14: them drop dead like it happens with a gunshot wound.
• 35:46
  Speaker 14: So usually the individuals are stabbed multiple times and there's
• 35:49
  Speaker 14: defensive wounds as they're trying to stop you from stabbing them,
• 35:53
  Speaker 14: and all they have to defend themselves is their arms
• 35:55
  Speaker 14: in hands, so often there's mutilating injuries of the hands
• 35:58
  Speaker 14: where even fingers are hacked off because you're grabbing at
• 36:02
  Speaker 14: the knife trying to stop it. So I would assume
• 36:06
  Speaker 14: that these individuals have those wounds as well, so they're
• 36:09
  Speaker 14: probably is a group. All of them have multiple stab
• 36:12
  Speaker 14: wounds with the combination of defensive type injuries and then
• 36:15
  Speaker 14: mutilating injuries as well.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: What did you mean when you said movement within the
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: stab wounds.
• 36:22
  Speaker 14: So there's a couple things. As you know, you're not
• 36:24
  Speaker 14: going to just stand there and be stabbed, right, You're
• 36:27
  Speaker 14: going to try and get away from them, pull away
• 36:29
  Speaker 14: when the knife enteres your body is painful, so you'll
• 36:32
  Speaker 14: twist and turn, and then that can cause a change
• 36:37
  Speaker 14: in the shape of the wound itself. And also sometimes
• 36:40
  Speaker 14: with individuals when they stab you, they will actually put
• 36:43
  Speaker 14: the knife in and then pull it as hard as
• 36:45
  Speaker 14: they can in one direction or another to make the
• 36:48
  Speaker 14: injury even more devastating and make the wound bigger.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: I'm just thinking back to the night these four students
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: were murdered, stabbed over and over and over the way
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: our medical examiner, doctor Kendall Crowns, is describing, and then
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: this guy comes in to court and refuses to enter
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: a play.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: We wait as justice and false goodbye