Latest / Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast / Still waiting on Joshua Báez, Libby bullpen move coming soon? Nolan Gorman & Victor Scott II future

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Still waiting on Joshua Báez, Libby bullpen move coming soon? Nolan Gorman & Victor Scott II future · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:06
Speaker 1: Hello, e Ruddy. I'm welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory.
0:10
Speaker 1: Jim Hayes with you, and today we have a media
0:13
Speaker 1: show or Buddy. Brendan Shaffer of MLB dot com is
0:17
Speaker 1: with us today to talk all things Cardinal and Brendan first,
0:22
Speaker 1: how you doing, Buddy?
0:24
Speaker 2: I am doing well. Kat. It is great to be
0:27
Speaker 2: back on with you. Appreciate the invite.
0:29
Speaker 1: Always great to have you. So the Cardinals are at Wrigley.
0:32
Speaker 1: As the Cardinals have gotten red hot back above five
0:36
Speaker 1: hundred now in the picture for the wild card. That's
0:40
Speaker 1: all well and good. I do think one of the
0:43
Speaker 1: top stories heading into this contest, however, is the fact
0:47
Speaker 1: that they are past the threshold in terms of keeping
0:54
Speaker 1: guys at that rookie level right and not encroaching on that,
1:00
Speaker 1: and so we should see josh obiamas right, but we're not. So.
1:07
Speaker 1: Bias is just over four hundred at bats at triple A.
1:12
Speaker 1: I know he's had a lot of swing and mission
1:14
Speaker 1: they're concerned about, but just over four hundred at bats,
1:17
Speaker 1: thirty four homers, ninety r and bis and that rookie
1:20
Speaker 1: threshold again, we're pasting it so they could bring them
1:24
Speaker 1: up and they're not, so I'm a little disappointed. I
1:27
Speaker 1: know Cardinal fans want to see this guy because it's exciting.
1:31
Speaker 1: Why aren't we going to see him, at least not
1:33
Speaker 1: what we will see him? We know, why aren't we
1:35
Speaker 1: seeing them now?
1:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like you said, I do think that, Look,
1:41
Speaker 3: it would be a surprise to me if Joshua Bias
1:43
Speaker 3: doesn't get some big league time this year. But I
1:46
Speaker 3: also think there's this notion of you got to temper
1:49
Speaker 3: the expectations a little bit.
1:50
Speaker 2: You mentioned the swing and miss.
1:53
Speaker 3: Looking at his numbers now, one hundred and thirty six
1:55
Speaker 3: strikeouts this season in four hundred and sixty one total
1:58
Speaker 3: plate appearances. Now, the power is fantastic, thirty four home
2:02
Speaker 3: runs and yeah, the ops at nine hundred.
2:04
Speaker 2: People want to see that.
2:06
Speaker 3: And I even kind of thought with the ballpark right,
2:08
Speaker 3: sometimes you're playing at Wrigley win blowing out, then you're
2:11
Speaker 3: going to Cincinnati, it actually might be a favorable time
2:14
Speaker 3: to do it if you're talking about a power bat.
2:17
Speaker 3: But I do think that it's a sign that the
2:20
Speaker 3: Cardinals do have some concern in terms of wanting to
2:23
Speaker 3: make sure more of that swing and miss gets cleaned
2:26
Speaker 3: up because it's.
2:27
Speaker 2: Only going to get more difficult for.
2:29
Speaker 3: Joshua Bias to make that quality contact when he gets
2:33
Speaker 3: to the big league level, the pitching that he is
2:35
Speaker 3: facing down there in Triple A to have sort of
2:38
Speaker 3: the ups and downs that go along with what his
2:40
Speaker 3: season has looked like against that caliber of arm. Not
2:44
Speaker 3: to take a shot at somebody from the Cardinals pass,
2:47
Speaker 3: but I saw recently that you know, he had in
2:49
Speaker 3: a bat against Jake Woodford that didn't go particularly well.
2:52
Speaker 3: And you know, Jake Woodford was a guy that when
2:54
Speaker 3: he was with the Cardinals was kind of trying to
2:56
Speaker 3: hang on and right now has been kicking around at
2:59
Speaker 3: the Triple A level.
3:00
Speaker 2: So it's not automatic.
3:01
Speaker 3: I think that's the way to look at it, and
3:02
Speaker 3: I think that's the way the Cardinals look at it
3:04
Speaker 3: when you think about Joshua Biaz and what he'll bring
3:06
Speaker 3: to the table when they deem that he is ready.
3:09
Speaker 3: But I do think it's important that you get a
3:11
Speaker 3: look at him at some point down in the stretch
3:13
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty six, because again, the notion that it's
3:16
Speaker 3: not going to get any easier doesn't mean that you
3:17
Speaker 3: should delay it forever. Give Bayaz a look at that
3:21
Speaker 3: and give him something to remember back to as he
3:24
Speaker 3: is working on things into the offseason. I think would
3:27
Speaker 3: be to his benefit, would be the Cardinals benefit to
3:29
Speaker 3: see a little bit of what they have in him.
3:31
Speaker 2: But I guess if you do it right.
3:33
Speaker 3: At the beginning of that forty five day threshold, I
3:36
Speaker 3: don't know. Maybe the sign there is that he's as
3:39
Speaker 3: ready as everybody has says he is, when in fact
3:42
Speaker 3: the Cardinals say there are probably still some things to
3:44
Speaker 3: work on.
3:45
Speaker 1: Look, and I agree with you, and I'm not second
3:48
Speaker 1: guessing you, like I will stipulate that him and his
3:52
Speaker 1: guys in the front office and all the people working
3:55
Speaker 1: analytics no better than me. I just thought we'd see it.
3:59
Speaker 1: In my opinion, you're not gonna You're not gonna help
4:02
Speaker 1: or herd a guy by an extra few games in MLB,
4:06
Speaker 1: So why not? I mean, it will have to me
4:08
Speaker 1: zero impact on his progress as a player, whether he gets,
4:13
Speaker 1: you know, twelve games at the big league level or
4:16
Speaker 1: whatever it is. But I thought it'd be nice because
4:18
Speaker 1: the fans want to see him, and the fans I think,
4:20
Speaker 1: have been energetic and on board with this team, So
4:23
Speaker 1: why not give him a little reward All right, Let's
4:26
Speaker 1: talk about some other guys. Yes, we don't hear about
4:30
Speaker 1: Nolan Gorman, power guy talking about a lot of slaying.
4:35
Speaker 1: Miss got that a lot of slag miss still right.
4:38
Speaker 1: But he started at Homers, he's got twelve. It's not
4:42
Speaker 1: like the Cardinals have had anyone grab third picks, you know,
4:46
Speaker 1: this season they've had some injuries in there. Blaze Jordan
4:51
Speaker 1: has been solid. They put for me, and they have
4:54
Speaker 1: a lot of guys kind of shuffling around. You think
4:57
Speaker 1: we'll get another chance to see Gorman this season or
5:01
Speaker 1: even next season. If there is one at spring training
5:05
Speaker 1: trying to get back to where he was, you think
5:07
Speaker 1: they're gonna give him that shot.
5:09
Speaker 3: I think it would make a lot of sense for
5:12
Speaker 3: the Cardinals, if they're not just completely ready to give
5:14
Speaker 3: up on Nolan Gorman entirely, to give him a look
5:18
Speaker 3: down the stretch of this season September, maybe when the
5:22
Speaker 3: rosters expand a little bit, and give him playing time
5:24
Speaker 3: at third base, just to see what it looks like.
5:27
Speaker 3: But here's the reason. I don't think even if they
5:30
Speaker 3: do that, it's likely to see him on the Cardinals
5:33
Speaker 3: next year. I think it comes down to a financial implication.
5:36
Speaker 3: He's in that arbitration process, and looking here on Baseball Reference,
5:41
Speaker 3: it looks like he's making around two point six million
5:43
Speaker 3: at the big league level this year. That's gonna go up,
5:47
Speaker 3: even though he hasn't had a good season, even though
5:49
Speaker 3: he's in Triple A right now. That's just the nature
5:51
Speaker 3: of the arbitration process. Like Nolan Gorman is gonna cost
5:54
Speaker 3: you at least three million bucks next year through that
5:57
Speaker 3: process if you want to retain his services. I can't
6:00
Speaker 3: imagine the Cardinals paying that, Like, I just don't think
6:03
Speaker 3: there's a benefit to it. You kind of feel like
6:05
Speaker 3: you're at the end of the road. However, you mentioned it.
6:07
Speaker 3: He is slugging a little bit right now in Triple A.
6:10
Speaker 3: The batting average is actually lower with Memphis than it
6:13
Speaker 3: was in Saint Louis. He's in the one eighties at
6:15
Speaker 3: this point, but the slug is four sixty four.
6:17
Speaker 2: He's got an eight hundred ozho ps and Triple A.
6:20
Speaker 3: I would at some point say, hey, we see the
6:23
Speaker 3: power right now, throw him out there for a few
6:25
Speaker 3: weeks in Saint Louis to end the season. If it
6:28
Speaker 3: looks great and you feel like it recoups some trade value.
6:32
Speaker 2: Maybe you can do that and he can.
6:34
Speaker 3: Be somebody else's project for three million plus next year,
6:38
Speaker 3: or if you decide that, man, he looks so good,
6:40
Speaker 3: we're gonna keep him around, because, as you said, Kat,
6:43
Speaker 3: nobody has really taken third base and grabbed it, and
6:46
Speaker 3: so if they can show him something, maybe they decide
6:49
Speaker 3: to kick it into twenty twenty seven. But I just
6:52
Speaker 3: don't really think that you're going to see the Cardinals
6:55
Speaker 3: pick up that contract or be able to meaningfully trade
6:59
Speaker 3: him anywhere without a little bit of a September showcase.
7:02
Speaker 3: So I know it maybe sounds crazy, he's in one
7:04
Speaker 3: eighty eight and triple A. I would personally do it
7:07
Speaker 3: just because I feel like, you know what they've been
7:09
Speaker 3: They've tried for this long with Nolan woman. He has
7:12
Speaker 3: perked up a little bit in the power department. Don't
7:15
Speaker 3: let there be any questions at the end of this
7:17
Speaker 3: relationship if it is coming to an end, like at
7:20
Speaker 3: least give him that one more shot and that after that.
7:23
Speaker 3: I do probably think it's the end of the road,
7:26
Speaker 3: just because of the financial implication of where he is
7:28
Speaker 3: in the arbitration process.
7:30
Speaker 1: And I totally agree, except he's got that one thing
7:34
Speaker 1: power that could interest some team, and why not give
7:39
Speaker 1: him one more shot to see what he can do
7:40
Speaker 1: and maybe that you know, one team or two teams
7:43
Speaker 1: that had their eye in them said that little roll
7:46
Speaker 1: the dice with that guy, because whatever happened, it's not
7:48
Speaker 1: gonna be like it's going to be each priced tag
7:50
Speaker 1: either way based on kind of what he's been through.
7:53
Speaker 1: What about Victor Scott the second Now he started really poorly,
7:58
Speaker 1: He's there's been enough tick with him him offensively as well,
8:01
Speaker 1: but clearly not where the Cardinals are hoping he would be.
8:05
Speaker 1: And the truth is we're seeing more and more from
8:08
Speaker 1: Church at the major league level, and they do a
8:11
Speaker 1: lot of the same things.
8:12
Speaker 3: Those guys they do, and that's what makes it a
8:16
Speaker 3: little bit complicated, because you don't necessarily need that redundancy
8:20
Speaker 3: on your big league roster if you are viewing one
8:23
Speaker 3: as the center fielder of the present or of the future,
8:26
Speaker 3: or both, and the other is also left handed and
8:30
Speaker 3: also a defense first type of guy. Nathan Church I
8:34
Speaker 3: think has showcased a little bit more pop, more power
8:37
Speaker 3: potential than what we've seen from Victor Scott. I think
8:40
Speaker 3: the best thing for Victor Scott would be to really
8:43
Speaker 3: continue to hone in and be a master of what
8:46
Speaker 3: he can do on the base pads, because that could
8:50
Speaker 3: give him a role in the big leagues as a
8:52
Speaker 3: fourth outfielder, as that defensive replacement, as you know, a
8:55
Speaker 3: pinch runner off the bench, and that I think if
8:58
Speaker 3: if he made that his skill set would I think
9:00
Speaker 3: he's got the ability to do There is value to
9:03
Speaker 3: that at the big league level in my opinion, whether
9:05
Speaker 3: here in Saint Louis or somewhere else. But you're right
9:08
Speaker 3: with the numbers offensively the ops at six thirty six
9:11
Speaker 3: right now as I viewed for vic in TRIPAA, I
9:14
Speaker 3: don't know that that necessarily screams he is the center
9:17
Speaker 3: fielder of the future in Saint Louis. I also, though
9:19
Speaker 3: personally am not ready or willing to, I don't think
9:22
Speaker 3: give up on Victor Scott the second skill set. I
9:25
Speaker 3: don't think we're quite as far along down the path
9:27
Speaker 3: as has been the case with a Nolan Gorman, where
9:30
Speaker 3: you've been doing this for however many years at the
9:32
Speaker 3: big league level, it hasn't been quite to that level
9:34
Speaker 3: with Victor Scott. And in fairness, I think Victor Scott
9:37
Speaker 3: got his first original call up a few years ago,
9:40
Speaker 3: earlier than he would have if the circumstances of the
9:43
Speaker 3: roster at the time weren't what they were. I don't
9:46
Speaker 3: think he was quite ready, but they kind of had
9:47
Speaker 3: to throw him into the fire. Victor Scott, you know,
9:50
Speaker 3: still at twenty five years old. I would be willing
9:53
Speaker 3: to say, yeah, are my hopes high right now? Of
9:56
Speaker 3: his contributions down the stretch in Saint Louis not necessarily
10:00
Speaker 3: for the end of this season, but I do think
10:02
Speaker 3: there's a skill set there. I wouldn't be looking to
10:05
Speaker 3: sell low on Victor Scott in terms of an offseason
10:07
Speaker 3: trade in quite the same way as I'm ready to
10:09
Speaker 3: do with a Nolan Gordon.
10:11
Speaker 2: Boy.
10:12
Speaker 1: If he could just fex his offense a little, I mean,
10:16
Speaker 1: if this guy's a two sixty hitter, two fifty hitter
10:19
Speaker 1: in the Major League, with a little bit more walking,
10:22
Speaker 1: he becomes that dynamic on it. Yeah, he becomes dynamic because,
10:26
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, once he gets on the base pass,
10:29
Speaker 1: it's almost like fifteen U club wall. He's going to
10:32
Speaker 1: be at second, the third because no one can come
10:34
Speaker 1: close to throwing him out. And defensively he's really, really good.
10:39
Speaker 2: Who's really good. I think he's really solid defensively.
10:41
Speaker 3: I think it needs to be more like what you're
10:43
Speaker 3: describing on the basis than what we saw. I mean,
10:46
Speaker 3: nine stolen bases caught four times in Saint Louis this year,
10:51
Speaker 3: and I know he wasn't on base a ton, but
10:52
Speaker 3: that it feels like that's a that's a skill that
10:55
Speaker 3: he could maximize.
10:57
Speaker 2: More than we saw.
10:58
Speaker 3: I think part of that is confidence, to be honest
11:00
Speaker 3: with you, Kat, where when it's not going well at
11:02
Speaker 3: the play and then you do get on base, you
11:05
Speaker 3: kind of have that fear creep in of all, I
11:07
Speaker 3: don't want to blow.
11:07
Speaker 2: This and make a mistake for my team.
11:11
Speaker 3: I think Vic just has to kind of find that
11:12
Speaker 3: confidence because he has the speed to do it, he
11:14
Speaker 3: has the intellect to be that type of base runner
11:17
Speaker 3: taking more advantage of that. I have fourteen stolen bases
11:20
Speaker 3: on sixteen attempts at Triple A. I'd like to see
11:23
Speaker 3: even more of that from him and the miners, so
11:24
Speaker 3: that he can kind of gain some confidence to be
11:26
Speaker 3: that guy if and when he returns to the big leagues.
11:29
Speaker 3: But you're right, get on base a little bit more.
11:31
Speaker 3: That can be a dynamic skill set that for me
11:33
Speaker 3: too soon to give up on.
11:35
Speaker 1: In my opinion, I'm with you, and you know, there's
11:37
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11:40
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12:17
Speaker 1: Thank you seat Geek. All right, so Libby gets to
12:20
Speaker 1: start today. He had a good start in Toronto and
12:24
Speaker 1: then I have a good start if last start at
12:26
Speaker 1: home was kind of odd to me because he was
12:28
Speaker 1: sweating and breathing heavy in the first inning. I love Libby,
12:32
Speaker 1: You love Libby, and I certainly believe he is a
12:36
Speaker 1: major league starting pitcher. Because I've seen it not as
12:40
Speaker 1: consistently as i'd like, and he's still young. I believe
12:43
Speaker 1: it's in it. So I'm not knocking, but that last
12:45
Speaker 1: start was not great. The start before Toronto was really
12:50
Speaker 1: really good against the good lineup, so he's been a
12:53
Speaker 1: mixed back. Look, the Cardinals are sticking with him as
12:57
Speaker 1: a starter. I think they probably should, even though I
13:01
Speaker 1: think he's also a fair quest to say, why not
13:04
Speaker 1: put him back in the bullpen where he was really
13:07
Speaker 1: good and let him fix some things, not to say
13:10
Speaker 1: he'll never be a starter again. How would you go
13:13
Speaker 1: about this, Brandon?
13:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do kind of think we're at the point
13:18
Speaker 3: of you. If you push him back towards the pen,
13:20
Speaker 3: he'll never be a starter again, at least in Saint
13:22
Speaker 3: Louis Right, another team down the line, if he's with
13:25
Speaker 3: somebody else, can decide to handle that differently. But I
13:28
Speaker 3: think if you pull the plug on it now, you've
13:30
Speaker 3: pulled the plug on it for the duration of his
13:32
Speaker 3: Cardinals career. I think that's kind of why the Cardinals
13:35
Speaker 3: are allowing it to play out. I also think there
13:36
Speaker 3: are some other factors that play here. Kyle Lahy has
13:40
Speaker 3: been really good in the starting rotation recently, arguably the Cardinals'
13:43
Speaker 3: best starting pitcher, but he's also a converted reliever and
13:46
Speaker 3: in year one of going from the bullpen to the rotation,
13:50
Speaker 3: he was in the eighties on innings count in twenty
13:53
Speaker 3: twenty five. The Cardinals knew they wanted to do this
13:55
Speaker 3: with Kyle Lahy, so they began to slowly build him
13:58
Speaker 3: up in long relief, but make that jump to a
14:00
Speaker 3: full time starter is still a significant gap, and he's
14:04
Speaker 3: well over one hundred innings at this point. Cardinals are
14:06
Speaker 3: gonna want to manage his innings load down the stretch
14:09
Speaker 3: and you'll see guys I think, like Quinn Matthews jumping
14:12
Speaker 3: back up from triple A to take that sixth day
14:15
Speaker 3: when the schedule dictates it, so that you can allow
14:18
Speaker 3: for others in the rotation like a Kyle Lahy whose
14:20
Speaker 3: innings you're trying to manage, to kind of take it
14:23
Speaker 3: easy a little bit. I think that's part of this
14:25
Speaker 3: conversation as well. Matthew Libertor being in the rotation rather
14:29
Speaker 3: than in the bullpen means that you can utilize Quinn
14:31
Speaker 3: Matthews as that sixth man, kind of like they did
14:34
Speaker 3: with McGreevy a year ago, like we saw with Hunter
14:36
Speaker 3: Dobbins prior to the trade deadline. That allows everything else
14:40
Speaker 3: the Cardinals want to do with their rotation to fall
14:42
Speaker 3: into place. We talk about it sometimes, but not a ton.
14:45
Speaker 3: How good of a job the Cardinals have done the
14:47
Speaker 3: last two years and keeping their starting pitching healthy and available,
14:51
Speaker 3: and I think a lot of it can be attributed
14:53
Speaker 3: to the scheduling in the way that they manage these guys,
14:55
Speaker 3: and so for as much as I do think Libertor's
14:58
Speaker 3: future may be in the bullpen if he isn't able
15:01
Speaker 3: to figure out the consistency as a starter down the
15:04
Speaker 3: stretch this year, I also don't necessarily think his future
15:09
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight in a leverage
15:12
Speaker 3: relief role necessarily changes dependent upon what he does over
15:17
Speaker 3: the next six weeks. I think it's fine to continue
15:20
Speaker 3: drawing this string out to the end of the season,
15:22
Speaker 3: letting him try to figure it out as a starter,
15:24
Speaker 3: and then if it doesn't happen, you can say we
15:26
Speaker 3: really gave it two full years and we're prepared to
15:29
Speaker 3: maybe do something different moving forward. I think it's the
15:32
Speaker 3: best of both worlds that it allows other starters in
15:34
Speaker 3: the rotation to have the extra rest to do it
15:37
Speaker 3: the way they're doing it now.
15:38
Speaker 2: And also you can.
15:39
Speaker 3: Be absolutely as sure as you possibly can be with
15:42
Speaker 3: libratorre and say we really did give it our level best.
15:46
Speaker 2: And if you decide to.
15:47
Speaker 3: Make a different decision in the future, you're not going
15:49
Speaker 3: to be wondering what if we didn't try it?
15:51
Speaker 2: For long enough.
15:53
Speaker 1: He's been, you know, given you know, several chants in
15:56
Speaker 1: now Levy. But I believe at some point we will
15:58
Speaker 1: see Levy as start somewhere and being a productive starting pitcher.
16:04
Speaker 1: I think that's what he wants to do, and I
16:07
Speaker 1: think that they'll get there now. I want to give
16:09
Speaker 1: you a credit because there's a lot of people now
16:12
Speaker 1: kind of taking Victory labs. But the Cardinals announced that
16:16
Speaker 1: they'll have Navy caps.
16:17
Speaker 2: On the road.
16:18
Speaker 1: I was part of a radio show many years ago
16:21
Speaker 1: whereas pro Navy cap and then they didn't bring me
16:25
Speaker 1: along when they went to FM. But that's for another show.
16:28
Speaker 1: All good, But you were also one of the guys.
16:31
Speaker 1: You were one of the guys that was a pro opponent,
16:34
Speaker 1: and you have now being with MLB dot Com, you
16:38
Speaker 1: have more interaction with the powerbrokers with the Cardinals, and
16:42
Speaker 1: I know this was something you were pushing for. And
16:45
Speaker 1: they did their little survey and they found out fans
16:48
Speaker 1: won Navy caps on the road, so I will tip
16:50
Speaker 1: my cap to you.
16:52
Speaker 2: Be chef. Well, I appreciate that.
16:55
Speaker 3: I really think it boiled down to one interaction where
16:59
Speaker 3: I asked after the press conference with Buildew with the
17:02
Speaker 3: third a new Coronarat, they were both there and I said,
17:06
Speaker 3: you know, the Navy caps. We didn't want to ask
17:09
Speaker 3: it on camera, but I'll ask you now, and A
17:11
Speaker 3: knook said, hey, we prepared for that, So they were
17:13
Speaker 3: ready for the question potentially, and A knook, you know,
17:17
Speaker 3: had heard about it from the radio show that you
17:19
Speaker 3: mentioned and from others just kind of discussing it, but
17:22
Speaker 3: didn't really know how much of a thing it was
17:25
Speaker 3: for the fan base. And so the Cardinals figured the
17:27
Speaker 3: way to figure that out would be to just ask,
17:30
Speaker 3: and so they did the survey, and A knook said
17:32
Speaker 3: that the survey was like eighty twenty in favor of
17:34
Speaker 3: Navy caps on the road, and so the Cardinals said,
17:37
Speaker 3: no time like the present, let's go back to it,
17:38
Speaker 3: which I think is a lot of fun.
17:40
Speaker 2: I think it's a good look.
17:41
Speaker 3: Like I wasn't necessarily this is like a life or
17:44
Speaker 3: death issue for me, but I like the Navy caps.
17:46
Speaker 3: And I'm excited that that fans are excited that they'll
17:49
Speaker 3: be back on the road.
17:49
Speaker 1: Now for me personally, like I never got into like, ohh,
17:54
Speaker 1: I like this uniform. That uniform Navy looks good. I
17:58
Speaker 1: know some of the players liked the navy caps. My
18:02
Speaker 1: former partners from the radio love it. I just think
18:05
Speaker 1: it's a great look for the Cardinals to put it
18:07
Speaker 1: out to the fans and then responding. So kudos all around.
18:12
Speaker 1: But again, typically cap to you gonna take a short
18:14
Speaker 1: break here. You are watching Cardinal Territory on the Foul
18:18
Speaker 1: Territory Network.
18:21
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18:26
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19:20
Speaker 2: All right, BChE if.
19:21
Speaker 1: I talked about this with former professional athletes on Cardinal
19:25
Speaker 1: Territory all the time. You know, the guys that are
19:28
Speaker 1: sitting on millions. But I'm gonna give Olli Marmo a
19:33
Speaker 1: lot of credit because I don't think people understand the
19:38
Speaker 1: nuances to what he's dealing with now. Right, it's a
19:41
Speaker 1: year of development. Now they're playing pretty good baseball. Look
19:45
Speaker 1: like they were done a little, I would all say
19:47
Speaker 1: it right around the trade deadline. In fact, Stanek said
19:51
Speaker 1: he thought they were distracted the younger guys by the
19:54
Speaker 1: possibility of guys coming and going. He said, once that
19:58
Speaker 1: was over, the energy came. Can they play? So the
20:01
Speaker 1: back over five hundred playing good baseball? They just took
20:05
Speaker 1: two or three from a really solid Phillies team. But
20:09
Speaker 1: Ali has kind of two agendas, whether he'll admit it
20:13
Speaker 1: or not. One is trying to win the game in
20:16
Speaker 1: front of them. I get that, But two is development,
20:19
Speaker 1: and sometimes you have to figure out how to navigate
20:24
Speaker 1: a game with those two things as the goal. And
20:28
Speaker 1: I think he's done a really good job with it.
20:30
Speaker 2: I don't even know if you.
20:30
Speaker 1: Agree with what I'm saying, but what are your thoughts
20:33
Speaker 1: on that olshpiel?
20:34
Speaker 2: That just game? I think a lot of is. I
20:38
Speaker 2: don't disagree with it.
20:39
Speaker 3: I just think a lot of that notion of how
20:41
Speaker 3: the development part gets handled it happens more at heim
20:46
Speaker 3: Bloom's level, more so than all these level in game.
20:51
Speaker 3: There are moments where it happens that you'll give a
20:53
Speaker 3: guy an opportunity that may not be backed by the
20:57
Speaker 3: numbers because of the development angle. But I don't find
21:00
Speaker 3: that Ali Martle is usually going out of his way
21:04
Speaker 3: to do that unless there's a very specific reason. I'll
21:08
Speaker 3: take you back to this past homestand the moment where
21:11
Speaker 3: Jimmy Crooks took the bat in the eighth inning. Cardinals
21:14
Speaker 3: were trying to mount that comeback, I believe against the
21:17
Speaker 3: Phillies and he strikes out Jimmy Crooks had first and third,
21:21
Speaker 3: one out. It was a time to get a batted
21:23
Speaker 3: ball in the air into the outfield tie the game,
21:25
Speaker 3: and he strikes out looks silly on a pitch above
21:28
Speaker 3: the strike zone. After the game, all He said, I
21:30
Speaker 3: would have done it differently. You have Brian Torres pinch
21:33
Speaker 3: it one slot sooner because he makes contact in his
21:36
Speaker 3: flyout which ended the inning after he pinched it for
21:39
Speaker 3: Preeto would have tied the game if a similar result
21:43
Speaker 3: had happened. So Allie said, yeah, that's an opportunity given
21:46
Speaker 3: to a guy like Crooks. But he still said I
21:48
Speaker 3: would have done it differently. So I don't think the
21:51
Speaker 3: decision happens in a way that it comes through that
21:55
Speaker 3: filter of oh, what's the development going to be. I
21:58
Speaker 3: still think when the game's on the line in a moment,
22:01
Speaker 3: you're probably still making whatever decision you can, at least
22:05
Speaker 3: in terms of those pinch hit opportunities right to try
22:07
Speaker 3: and win the game. But then the flip side of
22:09
Speaker 3: that is I think on the pitching side, it's not
22:12
Speaker 3: a question of development of do I leave this guy
22:15
Speaker 3: in for the sixth inning as a starter, or do
22:18
Speaker 3: I go to the bullpen. There are times they want
22:20
Speaker 3: to see a guy get through a spot because he
22:24
Speaker 3: needs to learn to be able to do that. But
22:27
Speaker 3: more than that, I think when those situations come up,
22:30
Speaker 3: usually it's behind the scenes. They didn't maybe say it
22:33
Speaker 3: on camera, but this starting pitcher said he's gassed and
22:36
Speaker 3: that's all he's got. Or you know this, this bullpen
22:39
Speaker 3: arm that everybody wants to be utilized in that spot
22:42
Speaker 3: isn't available, and nobody really knows.
22:44
Speaker 2: It because they didn't hear the conversation.
22:46
Speaker 3: So, like I think, more often than not, we try
22:48
Speaker 3: to kind of put everything into a nice, neat little
22:50
Speaker 3: box and say, oh, this is probably a development move,
22:52
Speaker 3: this is we're going to try to win now, No
22:55
Speaker 3: one all in Marmal. I think he's always trying to
22:56
Speaker 3: win the games. But some of those outlying factors you
23:00
Speaker 3: do have to keep in mind. I do agree with
23:02
Speaker 3: your premise that he's doing a nice job of balancing
23:05
Speaker 3: those things. I just don't know if it's quite as
23:08
Speaker 3: ingrained within every single decision as maybe it sometimes feels.
23:14
Speaker 1: I don't say it's in every decision, but it's certainly
23:16
Speaker 1: within the makeup of the roster that he has to
23:18
Speaker 1: deal with, right, Yes, certainly has to do with his
23:22
Speaker 1: pitching decisions, which is part of it. And what did
23:25
Speaker 1: Jimmy Crooks think? And I'll say this, I said it
23:28
Speaker 1: the other day on this thing. Look, I get it,
23:31
Speaker 1: I get the second guessing. Look, Jimmy Crooks is a
23:35
Speaker 1: guy they want to develop into their semi regular every
23:40
Speaker 1: day he's pretty much their semi regular catcher. No, right,
23:43
Speaker 1: it's got a lot of tools, hasn't hit and he's
23:46
Speaker 1: facing a guy who was out there because they had
23:49
Speaker 1: no one left in their bullpen. And he's gonna throw
23:52
Speaker 1: change up after change up after change up because that's
23:55
Speaker 1: what he's got, a change up, and Crooks look bad
23:58
Speaker 1: on the change up. I don't think it's even wrong
24:01
Speaker 1: to say, you know what, this guy's gonna have to
24:04
Speaker 1: do this. It's gonna have to make contact and put
24:07
Speaker 1: the ball in the air. Let's he's Jimmy Crooks, he's
24:10
Speaker 1: a guy we've talked about for a couple of seasons.
24:13
Speaker 1: Let's give him a shot to do it. Now. That's
24:16
Speaker 1: as I understand it, not how OLLI looked at it,
24:19
Speaker 1: But when I was watching it, I understood it. And
24:21
Speaker 1: even if that's not the case, I still think it
24:25
Speaker 1: was okay to see what this guy can do, you know.
24:29
Speaker 1: And at the time, it's not like the Cardinals were
24:32
Speaker 1: on a roll, right that they weren't on the hot
24:34
Speaker 1: street they are now, so it's a little different. So
24:38
Speaker 1: but there are certain things like that. I think you
24:41
Speaker 1: want to see what a guy can do.
24:42
Speaker 2: And maybe if.
24:44
Speaker 1: It was, you know, the last game of the season
24:47
Speaker 1: and you need that wing to get into it's different.
24:50
Speaker 1: I'm just saying a lot of what Oli does now,
24:52
Speaker 1: not just the obvious stuff, but with the roster and
24:56
Speaker 1: how he's managing innings is part of that.
24:58
Speaker 5: That's all.
25:00
Speaker 2: Oh, and I think your spot on there.
25:02
Speaker 3: And the other part I would add is that it
25:04
Speaker 3: is widely misunderstood by the public. Not to like rip
25:09
Speaker 3: on Cardinals fans, but I don't think people know ten
25:12
Speaker 3: percent of what goes into some of the decisions.
25:15
Speaker 2: That are made.
25:15
Speaker 3: Part of that's by design because sometimes, you know, the
25:18
Speaker 3: media never fully catches wind of that because there are
25:20
Speaker 3: things they want to keep in house. But the degree
25:23
Speaker 3: to which, like some of this stuff does get explained
25:25
Speaker 3: to guys like us, Kat I do think it's widely misunderstood.
25:29
Speaker 3: Fans will look at one decision and say, oh my gosh,
25:31
Speaker 3: he blew it. Rarely is that the case, And then
25:35
Speaker 3: in a situation like you know, the one against the
25:38
Speaker 3: Phillies on Monday, we're talking about it still a few
25:40
Speaker 3: days later, you say, yeah, maybe it was a reasonable approach.
25:45
Speaker 2: To take, and it can be debated.
25:47
Speaker 3: But I just think there are times where it's easy,
25:51
Speaker 3: because it's the manager seat in Major League Baseball, for
25:54
Speaker 3: people to look at a decision or a game lost
25:56
Speaker 3: and say, I'm pinning that on the guy that made
25:59
Speaker 3: the call. There's so much more that goes into it
26:02
Speaker 3: that I that I don't think people always have the
26:04
Speaker 3: opportunity to appreciate. That may just be something that people
26:08
Speaker 3: hear and it goes in one ear and out the other.
26:10
Speaker 3: I'll understand that, but all I can do is say
26:12
Speaker 3: it and hope that people go home. Maybe I'll maybe
26:15
Speaker 3: I'll think about that a little bit and kind of wonder,
26:18
Speaker 3: where's the context to that decision that the next time
26:21
Speaker 3: it's made just my little soapbox ran for you.
26:23
Speaker 2: Kat Oh. I get it.
26:25
Speaker 1: I'm not disagreeing, but I will say this fans have
26:27
Speaker 1: a rank to feel anyway they want to, because that's
26:29
Speaker 1: being a fan, and they are the customers, and the
26:33
Speaker 1: customers are always right, except if they critique this podcast
26:37
Speaker 1: or rip my performance. In that case they made it wrong,
26:40
Speaker 1: but otherwise the customer is always right. That's gonna do
26:44
Speaker 1: it for this edition of Cardinal Territory Special thanks to
26:48
Speaker 1: Bee Shape. We appreciate him coming on, and we will
26:51
Speaker 1: see you next time. Hopefully that episode won't suck