Latest / The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee / Grace Through the Fertility Storm, Finding Clarity in Fertility Decisions with Sarah Roberts

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Grace Through the Fertility Storm, Finding Clarity in Fertility Decisions with Sarah Roberts · The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

• 0:04
  Liz Walton: Welcome to the Home of Fertility, a space for real conversation.
• 0:09
  Liz Walton: Expert insights about fertility, healing, and creating family.
• 0:14
  Liz Walton: I'm Liz Watson.
• 0:17
  Helen Zee: And I'm Helen Zay.
• 0:18
  Helen Zee: We are two mums who've walked this path and are passionate about supporting you on your journey, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.
• 0:28
  Liz Walton: We talk about it all.
• 0:29
  Liz Walton: Fertility treatment, holistic support, relationships, mindset, and the emotional high athlete.
• 0:38
  Helen Zee: Because sometimes the missing piece lies in someone else's story, in the quiet wisdom of the body, or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you.
• 0:49
  Liz Walton: We are so glad you are here.
• 0:52
  Liz Walton: Let's dive in.
• 0:55
  Liz Walton: Hello, hello, hello to all of the beautiful listeners out there.
• 0:58
  Liz Walton: This is Liz Walton from the Home of Fertility.
• 1:01
  Liz Walton: And I am excited to speak to my next beautiful guest, who is the lovely Sarah Roberts.
• 1:08
  Liz Walton: How are you, Sarah?
• 1:09
  Sarah Roberts: Oh, I'm good.
• 1:11
  Sarah Roberts: I'm good.
• 1:11
  Sarah Roberts: I'm getting used to this change towards summer, but I'm I'm doing pretty good.
• 1:16
  Sarah Roberts: How are you doing?
• 1:17
  Liz Walton: I'm good.
• 1:18
  Liz Walton: Yes, I'm loving the fact that spring is springing and everything is blooming and warmth is a bit more around me at the moment.
• 1:27
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:29
  Sarah Roberts: And I just love the timing of the fertility summit that's early November, Melbourne comes to life.
• 1:34
  Sarah Roberts: Just such a beautiful time for us to connect.
• 1:37
  Liz Walton: Absolutely.
• 1:38
  Liz Walton: I've learned from last year.
• 1:39
  Liz Walton: I don't have it in winter, and I think spring is a much better time.
• 1:44
  Liz Walton: So it is absolutely yeah.
• 1:47
  Sarah Roberts: And it's interesting timing in the IVF journey because we're going to talk about this in a bit, but I did 10 years of trying to conceive an IVF.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:56
  Sarah Roberts: And it is an annual journey.
• 1:58
  Sarah Roberts: It's this thing where as you're coming into the end of the year and you can you can feel like December, January, the clinics are likely to close down.
• 2:05
  Sarah Roberts: So kind of this comes into a little bit of stop take around what am I going to be doing next year?
• 2:12
  Sarah Roberts: What does this gonna look like?
• 2:13
  Sarah Roberts: So it's just beautiful timing.
• 2:15
  Liz Walton: Yeah, it is.
• 2:15
  Liz Walton: Yes.
• 2:16
  Liz Walton: And like spring, you know, how it represents, you know, it's it's about blooming, it's about budding, it's about lusciousness.
• 2:22
  Liz Walton: So it is also a you know a time of, you know, let's let's give it a go.
• 2:27
  Liz Walton: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 2:29
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 2:30
  Liz Walton: So yeah, so the the expo is my is my like IVF, you know, fertile egg, you know, will it grow?
• 2:38
  Liz Walton: Is it gonna mature?
• 2:40
  Liz Walton: You know, this is my, you know, this is so me I at the moment.
• 2:44
  Liz Walton: Yeah, this is my new baby.
• 2:46
  Liz Walton: You know, will it make it?
• 2:50
  Sarah Roberts: Huge courage and so precious.
• 2:52
  Sarah Roberts: It's so precious for you to, I mean, really the first to offer this to IVF clients, like like I would have fallen over, I probably would have crawled my way through the door to have had an opportunity like this when I was going through IVF because it just felt like Oh my god, like as a client, you would have Dr.
• 3:12
  Sarah Roberts: Google and you would just be dealing with this like massive information and to have access to all of these specialists who can really navigate their way through and really in depth, really go through.
• 3:25
  Sarah Roberts: Let me talk this through with you.
• 3:28
  Sarah Roberts: Because there's just not enough time, clinic time.
• 3:30
  Sarah Roberts: You know, when you see a doctor and there's just not enough time to really go through all the questions, and sometimes it's even questions you don't even know that you have.
• 3:38
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and oh my god, connecting with others who are going through the same journey, just so precious.
• 3:45
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 3:45
  Liz Walton: So precious.
• 3:46
  Liz Walton: And you know, you're at a time where your mindset is different because you're not in front of the doctor feeling broken.
• 3:52
  Liz Walton: You that you're being able to come in going, oh, I've got all of these questions, or I'm curious about this, or how do I know about that?
• 3:58
  Liz Walton: And then you also learn loads of stuff that you didn't even think you'd learn.
• 4:02
  Liz Walton: Yes.
• 4:02
  Liz Walton: So it's a real safe space to come and you know, know that we that that you're held, that you're loved, and we see you.
• 4:12
  Liz Walton: Absolutely.
• 4:13
  Liz Walton: You can also come and speak to the doctors, you can speak to therapists, you can speak to all of these amazing, and a lot of them have had their own journey.
• 4:21
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 4:23
  Sarah Roberts: And you know, the other side of it is I know that that during our fertile years, sometimes when we're accessing IVF, there's a whole lot of decisions around who do I tell, do I want people to know?
• 4:33
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, there can be kind of a bit of a resistance to step into a space with other people who are going through this.
• 4:39
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 4:39
  Sarah Roberts: Um and I just know because I was at the one in Canberra, just how beautifully held, how safe, how loving the space is that you create.
• 4:48
  Sarah Roberts: Um yeah, so I just feel so blessed to be part of this one again.
• 4:52
  Liz Walton: Oh, look, Sarah, I cannot um express my gratitude that you are coming back again to share your amazing work.
• 5:01
  Liz Walton: And of course, your work is sometimes the work we're so scared to admit or to face, you know.
• 5:06
  Liz Walton: So let me introduce you, my gorgeous Sarah, because you are I just look you to bits.
• 5:11
  Liz Walton: So let me introduce you to all of our listeners.
• 5:13
  Liz Walton: So Sarah Roberts is a counselor, she's a childless lived experience advocate.
• 5:19
  Liz Walton: Okay, so she's with World Childless Week, she's a World Childless Week Ambassador and founder of the Empty Cradle, okay, a healing and supportive service for women whose fertility story ends without a baby.
• 5:33
  Liz Walton: And who Sarah understands this experience from the inside very personally, very throughout her whole being, as this was her story too.
• 5:41
  Liz Walton: After 10 years of trying to conceive, Sarah left IVF alone and in um deep grief and found no appropriate support.
• 5:49
  Liz Walton: And you know that that was me as well.
• 5:51
  Liz Walton: And I couldn't find any support.
• 5:52
  Liz Walton: So I'm so glad that there's you, you know.
• 5:55
  Liz Walton: Sarah pivoted her work as a therapist to supporting women coming to terms with this heartbreaking loss and wondering, you know, what has life got for me now?
• 6:05
  Liz Walton: How do I walk this life now?
• 6:06
  Liz Walton: So Sarah is passionate about caring, caring, sorry, for our headspace, our body space, our being during our fertile years and beyond.
• 6:17
  Liz Walton: So thank you, Sarah, for today, because I think this is this is the part.
• 6:22
  Liz Walton: And I remember for me, I was too scared to contemplate it.
• 6:25
  Liz Walton: I was just too scared.
• 6:26
  Liz Walton: What if it does?
• 6:27
  Liz Walton: Oh, I can't go there, I can't go there.
• 6:29
  Sarah Roberts: Absolutely.
• 6:30
  Liz Walton: And um, so Sarah, tell us tell us a bit about you and your journey, and then what what you know what got you into this?
• 6:37
  Liz Walton: Tell us, yes, yeah, share a bit of you because this this is all of our journeys when we're on it, you know.
• 6:43
  Liz Walton: Absolutely.
• 6:44
  Sarah Roberts: So the beginning point of my adult story around my journey with with motherhood um was I I think I was about 19 or 20, and I had a really lovely partner at the time, and we had a contraception mail, which happens lots.
• 7:04
  Sarah Roberts: I know it's super stigmatized, but you know, and I was in that position where I think I was 19 or 20, I didn't tell anybody, and I waited out the two weeks, and it was like, Am I pregnant?
• 7:16
  Sarah Roberts: And I'm sweating on it for two weeks, and of course, at that age, wasn't ready for it, crossed my fingers.
• 7:21
  Sarah Roberts: I was actually I was lucky enough, and I know many young women aren't this lucky, is that I was lucky enough that I wasn't pregnant at that time, and so I didn't have to face that really difficult choice about what do I do now.
• 7:36
  Sarah Roberts: But what did happen for me during that time was that it was kind of the first time in my young adult life that I absolutely knew that motherhood was really important to me, and it was something that it was like almost like a fixed point in my future.
• 7:53
  Sarah Roberts: I didn't know when it was going to be, but I just knew that it was really, really important.
• 7:58
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, and so um, you know, I I over those years I did things like I, you know, I collected books, I collected different items, I had my little baby's chests together, and you know, I over all those years, it was just kind of it was just this assumption, particularly through my 20s.
• 8:16
  Sarah Roberts: I hadn't I had some not great relationships during my 20s, so that kind of set things back a little bit.
• 8:22
  Sarah Roberts: But in my early 30s, I met my my current husband, um, a really beautiful man.
• 8:27
  Sarah Roberts: I know that's totally biased.
• 8:29
  Sarah Roberts: And I know for many women that doesn't happen, and so and many women and men, so deep, deep love and care for women for people during those fertile years, and just going, Is this am I gonna get these stocks lined up?
• 8:42
  Sarah Roberts: Is it gonna work?
• 8:43
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and so for us, we tried.
• 8:46
  Sarah Roberts: Um, I remember going into my gynecologist at 34, and they said, Are you planning to have kids?
• 8:50
  Sarah Roberts: And I was like, Yeah, whatever, the next few years.
• 8:52
  Sarah Roberts: And she said, Sweetheart, you don't have years.
• 8:55
  Sarah Roberts: And so she kind of gave me the marching orders to go, you get a bit better get a wriggle on, honey, yeah, at 34.
• 9:01
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and so it was really within the next 12 months that we started for kids, and I just assumed you'll start, you'll be pregnant the next month, maybe the month after, you know, the whole assumption around all that.
• 9:14
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 9:15
  Sarah Roberts: Anyway, 10 years later, many IVF cycles, 12 reproductive losses, etc.
• 9:23
  Sarah Roberts: etc.
• 9:23
  Sarah Roberts: etc.
• 9:24
  Sarah Roberts: I got to my mid-40s and yeah, I just, you know, I made that really, really tough decision to end fertility treatment um and to move into a childless path.
• 9:41
  Sarah Roberts: So um what happened for me was that um other pathways to parenting either weren't available or weren't suitable for us at that at that point.
• 9:51
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah um and just made that really tough personal decision.
• 9:56
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and look, to be really honest, I remember during all of those years, there was a lot of anxiety around.
• 10:03
  Sarah Roberts: I didn't even think.
• 10:04
  Sarah Roberts: It was like I couldn't even consider it, just brought up anxiety to even think that I might have a future without children.
• 10:11
  Sarah Roberts: And the way I kind of describe it now is during your fertile years, it's like you're kind of sitting at this crossroads between these two lives.
• 10:18
  Sarah Roberts: And in one direction is the pathway into parenting, and we all have an ability to imagine what that's going to be like.
• 10:26
  Sarah Roberts: You know, we don't know completely, it'll be very unique and individual to us, but we kind of we can kind of mud map it and have a sense of what that life might be like.
• 10:34
  Sarah Roberts: And then there's the life without children, and of course, none of us want that exit pathway.
• 10:42
  Sarah Roberts: We all go into fertility treatment in the hope that we will walk out in that other life.
• 10:48
  Sarah Roberts: Um and I guess what I found is that that I left the clinic, there wasn't any clear or obvious support opportunities or options there for me.
• 10:59
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, um, I did reach out to my GP.
• 11:02
  Sarah Roberts: Look, I was sent to a uh to a couple of of people for support, yeah, and um it just wasn't appropriate.
• 11:12
  Sarah Roberts: Um I remember getting this kind of unfortunately, I was told, you know, that I was kind of lucky to not have kids because being a mum was really hard.
• 11:20
  Sarah Roberts: And um, there was a lot of you know, you just need to get on with it and make a good life.
• 11:24
  Sarah Roberts: And and almost this thing around almost like just skip over the grief.
• 11:32
  Sarah Roberts: Just you know, don't worry about that, don't worry about the grief, don't worry about all that stuff and the really hard journey.
• 11:38
  Sarah Roberts: But what I realized is that that grief actually is gonna follow you and it's going to you know, for many women it will be part of their life, and you've kind of got to sit down.
• 11:50
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, if you don't look at it, it'll still be there.
• 11:52
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, it's exactly right.
• 11:54
  Sarah Roberts: And you know, um what I wanted to say to women who are currently going through fertility treatment, I totally get that this is really important.
• 12:09
  Sarah Roberts: I totally get kind of the fears, the feelings that can come up around this potentially not happening.
• 12:17
  Sarah Roberts: But the other thing is that once you're there, it it is doable.
• 12:25
  Sarah Roberts: It's like and I'm not gonna say that I have this amazing stellar life.
• 12:32
  Sarah Roberts: It's just like I just have this really humble, ordinary, beautiful human life, and it's precious and it's valuable, and you know, I'm I'm surrounded and connected with lots of other women and men who where they wanted to be a parent and it didn't happen.
• 12:47
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, and it's possible to create a really beautiful life.
• 12:53
  Sarah Roberts: Um it's it's possible to grieve, there's resources, there's people who can support us through that.
• 13:00
  Sarah Roberts: Um and I guess part of why I do what I do is how do we hold that space for our care and hold ourselves in this really compassionate, loving way during our fertile years to give it the best shot, but then also to really support ourselves through whatever the outcome is.
• 13:25
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and that's what really drives my work, I think.
• 13:29
  Liz Walton: So yeah, yeah.
• 13:32
  Liz Walton: And that's so beautiful because it's you know, it's how to hold the heart, the soul, the being in this state of, you know, was so raw, you know, like how and then also it's like, well, I've been everything I've done is focused on trying to get the baby.
• 13:51
  Liz Walton: How do I focus on letting go and not having the baby?
• 13:54
  Liz Walton: And it it's kind of like it doesn't compute my how do how do I do that?
• 13:59
  Liz Walton: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:00
  Liz Walton: And this is where I think, and I love you have chosen to support others.
• 14:04
  Liz Walton: People go, you know, I can support that.
• 14:07
  Liz Walton: Yeah, you know, and I can help you with that.
• 14:09
  Liz Walton: Yeah, you know, and and and I I also understand that because I to me, I I, you know, by 42, 43, I hadn't had a baby.
• 14:18
  Liz Walton: My sister-in-law had a baby, and that was you know, uh to me, the universe had said you could never have a baby.
• 14:24
  Liz Walton: And so I it was just like I I for my sanity I have to I have to let go and yeah, how do I do that?
• 14:32
  Liz Walton: You know, yeah, and then spent, you know, I I'd say a good 18 months to two years of at really working deeply on myself to be clear.
• 14:42
  Liz Walton: So um, and I think this work is, you know, it it what I now know of being on the other side and yourself is we do survive and we we it finding out who we are if we don't have the baby.
• 14:56
  Liz Walton: I know there's those deep, it's probably such it's such a deep journey, isn't it?
• 15:00
  Liz Walton: To find out who are we if I don't have a child.
• 15:04
  Sarah Roberts: Oh my god.
• 15:05
  Sarah Roberts: It's it's totally um so there's a couple of things that I would say to that.
• 15:11
  Sarah Roberts: One of them is that I I totally understand that sense of really singular, undivided focus on I'm really going to focus on this as my goal, you know, becoming a parent.
• 15:24
  Sarah Roberts: This is so important to me.
• 15:26
  Sarah Roberts: I totally understand that and totally champion, you know, very, very hopeful for that for every person who goes through this process that they have that beautiful outcome that they want.
• 15:38
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 15:39
  Sarah Roberts: I also understand that that the decision making around it is very personal and very unique.
• 15:44
  Sarah Roberts: So you have some women who are who are are ready to move on a little bit earlier, other women who really want the, you know, allow the clock to run down.
• 15:53
  Sarah Roberts: I have some women that that right through to menopause, they're still hopeful.
• 15:57
  Sarah Roberts: And then they're going, oh now I'm having to kind of face it.
• 16:00
  Sarah Roberts: And so it's very unique to each woman and the different factors that that they choose, you know, that they prioritize are really important.
• 16:11
  Sarah Roberts: Um and then I guess what I kind of also wanted to say is that going through this process, for me, when I look back on that young woman who I was, and I'm now in my mid-50s, and I look back on that young woman who 20 years ago started on this, you know, completely naively on this fertility journey.
• 16:35
  Sarah Roberts: I hold her with such love, such compassion, such value.
• 16:41
  Sarah Roberts: Like I really hold a space for her love and care.
• 16:45
  Sarah Roberts: And the way that I've been able to do that is the process of grieving, the process of this loss, the process of navigating that, what it actually really did is it actually transformed me into a fully, fully realized adult woman.
• 17:08
  Sarah Roberts: It just broke my heart and then it broke open my heart.
• 17:11
  Sarah Roberts: And it just what it did is it shone a torch on all these places within me that needed healing.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:18
  Sarah Roberts: And I I said yes to that.
• 17:20
  Sarah Roberts: I said yes, I said yes to I'm actually going to whatever's needed here, I'm going to be open to this healing process.
• 17:28
  Sarah Roberts: I'm going to learn how to reclaim a sense of self-worth, how to hold my heart, how to hold my story with self-compassion.
• 17:38
  Sarah Roberts: And, you know, it's weirdly ironic that, and I often say this to women, I'm going to say it too much, but but I can say to you is the experience of me not being able to have a child actually made me into the kind of person who would be so much better as a mother.
• 17:58
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 17:58
  Sarah Roberts: If that makes sense.
• 17:59
  Sarah Roberts: It's actually because what it did is it brought forward like I needed to develop all these personal qualities that were needed to actually really support me within my life.
• 18:12
  Sarah Roberts: And they would have been skills.
• 18:14
  Sarah Roberts: They've supported me now in my childlessness, but they also would have been skills that would have been really important for me to have into motherhood.
• 18:22
  Sarah Roberts: So one of the things that I really suggest for women is take that time now to really sit with nurturing these personal qualities and skills that you're going to need whether you become a mother or not.
• 18:39
  Sarah Roberts: And so it's things like this deep level of self-compassion, being able to really make peace with your choices, being able to hold your story with love.
• 18:48
  Sarah Roberts: Um, you know, being able to go, where are the parts of me that feel wounded or broken or where I'm struggling to feel a sense of self-worth?
• 18:57
  Sarah Roberts: Um, yeah, and then they're they're places for healing, they're places for love and care and healing and nurture.
• 19:03
  Sarah Roberts: And um, yeah, absolutely.
• 19:06
  Sarah Roberts: You know, offer that to women where I come back to that young woman from 20 years ago and I come back to the women who are walking through this journey now and go, Hey, there's people who are here who are who are really happy to to hold space and to guide you and offer their wisdom and their experience to enable you, you don't have to be alone with this journey now.
• 19:31
  Liz Walton: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:32
  Liz Walton: I I absolutely love what you just said.
• 19:34
  Liz Walton: It broke my heart and it broke my heart open.
• 19:37
  Liz Walton: And it it's like there's a such a growth that comes with that.
• 19:41
  Liz Walton: I mean, I I always say the fertility journey is is is the biggest gift you can ever have because it teaches us so much about emotional intelligence, about compassion, about self-love, you know, all these things that that we need to learn.
• 19:58
  Liz Walton: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:59
  Liz Walton: You know, to become the best version of ourselves.
• 20:02
  Liz Walton: Yes, human beings.
• 20:03
  Sarah Roberts: To become to become a good parent and also to become a good human being.
• 20:07
  Sarah Roberts: All of that.
• 20:08
  Sarah Roberts: Like it's it's it's kind of that thing around because being a parent hasn't come easily to you, and I'm not I'm not for a moment downplay.
• 20:20
  Sarah Roberts: I mean, you and I, we've we're part of the SCAR clan, we've done our time in the trenches, we know just how bloody hard this can be.
• 20:28
  Sarah Roberts: I I don't want to for a moment downplay that, but sometimes within that rubble, there can be those little gifts of of magic.
• 20:37
  Sarah Roberts: And part of that is if parenthood does happen, that I won't take this for granted, that I'll try and be present to this experience.
• 20:45
  Sarah Roberts: And um and and yeah, that I will actually really make a space for this in my life.
• 20:50
  Sarah Roberts: And I've really, you know, I'm I've said a big yes to this.
• 20:54
  Sarah Roberts: It's not like I just kind of randomly ended up in a situation and went, oh, what am I gonna do about this?
• 21:00
  Sarah Roberts: It's like I've really actively chosen for this in my life, and what does that mean that I bring to the experience of parenting?
• 21:09
  Sarah Roberts: Um yeah, and I just you know, it's really a heart-centered thing, isn't it?
• 21:19
  Sarah Roberts: To really honor yeah, in a really caring and loving way what this experience has been for each of us.
• 21:26
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 21:26
  Liz Walton: Absolutely.
• 21:28
  Liz Walton: And um, so I I know just on my journey, you know, I was like, I wanna if try if it is for me to not be a parent, I know I want to live a happy, fulfilled life.
• 21:43
  Liz Walton: And so what does that look like now?
• 21:45
  Liz Walton: And it was really about, you know, how how do I live that now when it's not what I imagined?
• 21:51
  Liz Walton: But I know people do, and I I've got some really good girlfriends who are just like, I do not want to be a parent.
• 21:58
  Liz Walton: Yeah, they're having the time of their life.
• 22:00
  Liz Walton: So I was kind of like, okay, well, I need to take a ticket out of their book.
• 22:07
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 22:07
  Liz Walton: And they're, you know, they're doing wonderfully.
• 22:10
  Liz Walton: Thank you very much.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 22:12
  Liz Walton: And so that's when I was like, okay, so you know, I choose to live a happy life.
• 22:19
  Liz Walton: So, you know, I need to find out what that is for me.
• 22:24
  Liz Walton: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:24
  Liz Walton: And this also need to heal me now and and hold me tender, so to speak.
• 22:31
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 22:31
  Liz Walton: And um, so I can do that slow walk to get to where they are.
• 22:37
  Liz Walton: And how what what that looks like for me, you know, obviously not, you know, doing what they're doing, but what would that look like for me?
• 22:42
  Sarah Roberts: So it's yeah, yeah.
• 22:44
  Sarah Roberts: And you know, one of the things I do when I'm working with women, and you're absolutely right, is women where it's a very clear, and I'm saying women, but but people, you know, women and men, for where it's a very clear choice that they absolutely do not want children, and they've often known for a fairly long time.
• 23:01
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 23:02
  Sarah Roberts: And and often they have no regrets, like like you know, research around where it's been by choice.
• 23:09
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, it's it can often feel quite power empowered.
• 23:12
  Sarah Roberts: It's in alignment with their sense of self and a sense of agency.
• 23:15
  Sarah Roberts: And certainly there can be, like as a childless person, I can look to somebody who's living without kids and go, oh wow, okay, there's some ways that they're doing this that are that I can find perhaps some inspiration.
• 23:26
  Sarah Roberts: What I also say when I'm working with women is that if you're somebody who desired to be a mum, even if it doesn't happen, you never have to have let go of that part of yourself in order to heal and move forward.
• 23:43
  Sarah Roberts: And the reason I say that is that when I was going through IVF treatment, I thought that 100% the whole of me, the totality of who I was, desired motherhood.
• 23:56
  Sarah Roberts: And it was a big want.
• 23:57
  Sarah Roberts: Like I knew the stats that you know there were times where I was still doing IVF treatment.
• 24:02
  Sarah Roberts: It was probably less than 10% chance that it was going to work.
• 24:06
  Sarah Roberts: But you know, less potential less than 10% was more than nothing.
• 24:09
  Sarah Roberts: So I was willing to to to still do it for a period of time.
• 24:13
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 24:14
  Sarah Roberts: Um, but what I realized, and this was part of my healing, was actually to realize that I am this complex, multi-layered, diverse woman, and that there's a part of me, not the whole of me, but there's a part of me that desired to be a mum.
• 24:31
  Sarah Roberts: And she's the part of me that carried those hopes and dreams.
• 24:36
  Sarah Roberts: And she's also the part of me that carries the grief that she never got to meet her own children.
• 24:41
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 24:41
  Sarah Roberts: And so what I do is I have this really special place, and I actually feel like I actually hold her under my left arm, like kind of around here.
• 24:49
  Sarah Roberts: And she's the part of me that sometimes, even still, when I'm around children, there's this sadness that might come up.
• 24:54
  Sarah Roberts: And yeah, there can be, you know, comments that are made that might be a bit insensitive and kind of show me, oh, people don't understand this experience.
• 25:04
  Sarah Roberts: But what I now do is I hold her, I love her.
• 25:08
  Sarah Roberts: I I what I've done is I've really worked to build this loving relationship with her, and she'll probably still be there with me right through the years because she's part of my story.
• 25:20
  Sarah Roberts: Absolutely.
• 25:21
  Sarah Roberts: But if I lift my gaze a little bit and I look around, I can actually see all these other parts of me that exist that are not dependent on my parenting status.
• 25:33
  Sarah Roberts: So there's the part of me that's talking to you.
• 25:36
  Sarah Roberts: There's the part of me that shows up in therapy with women and holds the space for their sense of becoming and healing.
• 25:44
  Sarah Roberts: There's the part of me that wanders out into the garden and um, you know, does all the native plant reveg.
• 25:50
  Sarah Roberts: Like there's the friend, there's the the sister, there's there's all the other parts of me that exist.
• 25:56
  Sarah Roberts: And so what can happen when we're in grief is that grieving part can just rise up and completely flood our system because it's needing attention and love and care and support.
• 26:08
  Sarah Roberts: But once we're able to kind of gently go, she's a part of me, but she's not everything.
• 26:14
  Sarah Roberts: And that's what I mean when I say we're complex, diverse.
• 26:20
  Sarah Roberts: That's what it means to be human, right?
• 26:22
  Sarah Roberts: It is, yeah.
• 26:23
  Sarah Roberts: Is is absolutely, and I think it's similar that you hear this in in when parents or particularly mothers talk about their identity, as they'll say, yeah, mothering's a really important part of who I am.
• 26:35
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, but it's not everything.
• 26:37
  Helen Zee: No.
• 26:38
  Sarah Roberts: It's it's a really significant, and that relationship with my child is really significant.
• 26:42
  Sarah Roberts: But yes, there's also part of other parts of me that exist.
• 26:47
  Sarah Roberts: And once we've been able to really tend to that relationship and she's feeling more at peace, and she knows that she's heard and able to process her grief, the other parts of us were able to like free up some of our energy to offer a little bit of attention to the other parts of ourselves and just gently wonder and explore and have some curiosity around what else is there?
• 27:13
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, what else might be possible?
• 27:15
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 27:15
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and that's that's an experience that we live through.
• 27:20
  Sarah Roberts: So it's not like you get to the end of it and go, ah, there's this really clear strategic plan purpose that dropped in my lap, it's all sorted.
• 27:28
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 27:29
  Sarah Roberts: It's like, no, you actually are changed by your experience of this.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:34
  Sarah Roberts: And so the person you become and the life you create is actually a life for a person that probably doesn't exist yet.
• 27:42
  Sarah Roberts: So that person who's done that healing, she will actually probably create quite a different life, perhaps, than the one that you imagine being a parent might look like.
• 27:55
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 27:55
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and it's not a better or worse life.
• 27:58
  Sarah Roberts: They're equally valuable, yeah, they're beautiful.
• 28:02
  Sarah Roberts: We know that there's so many people without children and non-parents who contribute in such significant ways to the lives of children, to supporting parents, to the life of the community.
• 28:14
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and so it's really about embracing each other with just this love and sense of care and respect, which is just so important.
• 28:23
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:25
  Liz Walton: I love that.
• 28:25
  Liz Walton: And I think that really explains the work that you do and how, you know, the empty cradle, this is how you support people in, you know, and it's I don't know if the word managing is right, but but that next decision when it is about um how do I walk this next path of letting go and ending my journey, and it's without the child that I so wished I had.
• 28:50
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 28:50
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 28:52
  Sarah Roberts: And um that's a very gent, that can be a very gentle and unfolding process.
• 28:58
  Sarah Roberts: And again, it's it's it's very unique to each woman.
• 29:00
  Sarah Roberts: Some women, it's absolutely clear enough and they do intense grieving and and step into and they feel like that's part of their history, but not something they necessarily carry.
• 29:13
  Sarah Roberts: For other women, it might be something they continue to carry, a little bit of sadness, you know, right through their years.
• 29:20
  Sarah Roberts: Um and however it lands for each woman, it's it's possible to heal and create this really beautiful life.
• 29:29
  Sarah Roberts: And it's painful, it's hard.
• 29:32
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, it's it it can be intensely challenging.
• 29:36
  Liz Walton: Yeah, but it can be doable.
• 29:39
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 29:40
  Liz Walton: I think that's the truth.
• 29:42
  Liz Walton: It is hard, it is painful, it is all of that, but it is possible, you know, that you know, I will go on.
• 29:48
  Liz Walton: Yes, I will go on, I can't survive.
• 29:51
  Liz Walton: And that was the biggest thing for me was facing the thing I was so scared about.
• 29:55
  Liz Walton: And then when I faced it, I was a bit like, oh, I'll.
• 29:59
  Liz Walton: I will be okay.
• 30:01
  Liz Walton: You know, it was a bit like, oh, yeah.
• 30:04
  Liz Walton: Because it seemed so like I I couldn't be okay.
• 30:07
  Liz Walton: There's no way I could even contemplate it.
• 30:09
  Liz Walton: And then when I had to, and sort of, you know, go through the funnel or go through the eye of the needle.
• 30:16
  Liz Walton: It was like, oh, I I will be okay.
• 30:19
  Liz Walton: You know, it's it's it's all right.
• 30:21
  Liz Walton: I don't like it, but I'll be okay.
• 30:24
  Liz Walton: And I and for me, I I I wanted to find happiness, you know.
• 30:28
  Liz Walton: So it was like I I can do this.
• 30:30
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 30:31
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 30:31
  Sarah Roberts: Absolutely.
• 30:33
  Sarah Roberts: I can so relate to that.
• 30:34
  Sarah Roberts: Yes.
• 30:35
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 30:35
  Sarah Roberts: It's almost like you've got to, you know, you're just so screaming in the direction of that parenting life.
• 30:43
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 30:43
  Sarah Roberts: And then to have to face that that life's not the one that I'm going to have.
• 30:52
  Sarah Roberts: So what does that mean now?
• 30:54
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:55
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:57
  Liz Walton: Now I know um you're coming to the Melbourne Fertility Expo and you're doing an amazing workshop.
• 31:04
  Liz Walton: And it is about, you know, when we're trying to create a decision during our fertility journey and treatments, there's just so much, you know, what decision, what's right.
• 31:17
  Liz Walton: Even if I choose it, have I done the right decision?
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 31:19
  Liz Walton: Oh, you know, oh, I don't, I don't know.
• 31:21
  Liz Walton: And you know, and it's it's kind of like, you know, you're almost sort of stuck in this shock of ideas.
• 31:25
  Liz Walton: Yes.
• 31:26
  Liz Walton: Right thing to do.
• 31:27
  Liz Walton: Yes.
• 31:28
  Liz Walton: And um, so I know one of the your your um workshop is about finding clarity with decision making and those little choices.
• 31:38
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 31:39
  Liz Walton: So share with me, you know, what can help us with decision making.
• 31:43
  Sarah Roberts: Oh, absolutely.
• 31:44
  Sarah Roberts: So one of the starting points that I often work with when I'm working with women around decision making is what are the beliefs or maybe the myths that you're carrying around decision making?
• 31:54
  Sarah Roberts: And there are some really big ones that we carry or that get told to us during our fertile years.
• 32:02
  Sarah Roberts: Sometimes we can be told, you know, we can get a sense that there's the right decision out there.
• 32:08
  Sarah Roberts: Um, we just need to find it.
• 32:10
  Sarah Roberts: And that's also that we can feel a sense of if I just make the right decision, then I'll get that outcome that I want.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:19
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and one of the things that's can be a little bit unusual about the fertility experience is that the outcome's pretty clear, right?
• 32:26
  Sarah Roberts: Like this, it's a pretty clear outcome.
• 32:27
  Sarah Roberts: We want to have a healthy child.
• 32:30
  Sarah Roberts: We want to, for us to end this journey with our mental health, with our psychological well-being, with our financial well-being, with that it fairly intact.
• 32:41
  Sarah Roberts: So, so the goal itself for us is often quite clear.
• 32:45
  Sarah Roberts: How we get there might be a little bit different, but that goal is often pretty clear for us.
• 32:51
  Sarah Roberts: The challenge is around recognizing that not everything within this journey is within our control.
• 32:58
  Sarah Roberts: There's certain things that we can make choices about and decisions about.
• 33:04
  Sarah Roberts: And there's other things that are outside of our control.
• 33:09
  Sarah Roberts: And so, how do we navigate the uncertainty of that?
• 33:12
  Sarah Roberts: And sometimes when it comes to decision making, it might be I'm choosing between not ideal options, not great options, what's the best of some not great options?
• 33:23
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and so that can be part of it.
• 33:25
  Sarah Roberts: So there's a couple of things that I'll be offering in the workshop, apart from that, because there's a whole lot of other myths that that will bring forward, but also um we'll look a little bit at decision-making models.
• 33:39
  Sarah Roberts: So, what are some basic decision-making models?
• 33:42
  Sarah Roberts: Um, and how decision making is very much an information gathering, forward-moving, iterative process, and that sometimes what we can do with decision making, and this is really important, is that sometimes we think sometimes what we do is we blend together the outcome and the decision.
• 34:08
  Sarah Roberts: And so what I mean by that is sometimes we think if there's a bad outcome, maybe I didn't make a good decision.
• 34:14
  Sarah Roberts: Or we think if there's a good outcome, maybe I did make a good decision.
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:20
  Sarah Roberts: And what I'm gonna gently suggest for women is you can actually make some good decisions and still not reach the outcome that you're wanting.
• 34:28
  Sarah Roberts: And so being able to pull those apart a little bit can be so.
• 34:33
  Sarah Roberts: What are some other ways that we can consider what feels like a good decision for us and it aligns with our values, it aligns with the information that we have, it aligns with what is right for us at that point in time.
• 34:51
  Sarah Roberts: Um and so we'll look at a few different models, and then if there's time, we're also gonna spend a little bit of time looking at what do we do when we feel ambivalent about decision?
• 35:05
  Sarah Roberts: And what that means is ambivalence is like I feel a bit conflicted.
• 35:10
  Sarah Roberts: There's a part of me that says, yep, go ahead with this.
• 35:13
  Sarah Roberts: There's a part of me that goes, Oh, I'm not sure about that.
• 35:16
  Sarah Roberts: And so what I'm gonna bring forward is is a an activity that I or a tool that I use with women to actually kind of sit down and really unpack what are those different parts of me and what are they saying, and allowing ourselves to be in dialogue and how do I prioritize a decision out of that?
• 35:35
  Sarah Roberts: Um and just being able to kind of hold ourselves with compassion and care and love as we're as we're working through those decisions.
• 35:48
  Sarah Roberts: Um yeah, and just being able to be really kind and generous with ourselves because you know, this this is tough.
• 35:58
  Sarah Roberts: Like, you know, there can be so many tiny decisions, and you can feel this sense of overwhelm.
• 36:03
  Sarah Roberts: And you know, I found myself, I don't know if you experienced this, but I literally during those 10 years, particularly kind of the last four or five years, I actually had it was almost like you know, when you you're in a car and you put the car in drive, and then you're sitting in a traffic light and you might sit in neutral.
• 36:22
  Sarah Roberts: My brain for a few years had a neutral setting, which was I would always default to problem solving.
• 36:28
  Sarah Roberts: What else could I do?
• 36:29
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 36:30
  Sarah Roberts: Maybe diet, maybe, you know, I would my thoughts would always go back to what else can I do?
• 36:36
  Sarah Roberts: What else can I think about?
• 36:37
  Sarah Roberts: Maybe I need to, you know, what went wrong, maybe it was that coffee, maybe I shouldn't have had that wine.
• 36:43
  Sarah Roberts: Do you know what I mean?
• 36:44
  Sarah Roberts: Like you can get so caught up in the mind, every little thing, detail of all that.
• 36:50
  Sarah Roberts: And what where that comes from is feeling this sense of it's my fault, I'm responsible.
• 36:57
  Sarah Roberts: And if I can just make the right decisions, then I can make this happen.
• 37:02
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 37:03
  Sarah Roberts: And of course, the other thing that I talk to with women is that one of the mistakes that we can make in decision making is to confuse the importance of a decision with the likelihood of the outcome we want.
• 37:18
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 37:18
  Sarah Roberts: And so you we might be sitting there, for example, like I said before, where you're sitting with a 5%, 10% chance of this going to work.
• 37:27
  Sarah Roberts: And because it's so, so, so, so important, you know, it's so, and you know, it as it becomes clear that it is not happening, sometimes what happens to us is it really raises the stakes on just how important it is.
• 37:43
  Sarah Roberts: So a lot of anxiety can sit around that, a lot of rumination, all that stuff.
• 37:47
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 37:48
  Sarah Roberts: And so one of the things that we can do in decision making, which can be really helpful to pull apart as well, is the importance of the decision and then the facts and the likelihood to actually kind of go, this is an incredibly important thing.
• 38:03
  Sarah Roberts: And so what I'm doing here is I'm giving a five to ten percent chance of this happening because it's so important rather than a zero percent if I don't do it.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 38:17
  Sarah Roberts: And so what I notice when I'm working with women is sometimes their motivation for doing IVF or doing fertility treatment can change over time.
• 38:31
  Sarah Roberts: So, for example, when we first come in, I mean, I think everybody comes in, and the first time they go through a cycle, they think, yep, it'll happen the first time.
• 38:40
  Sarah Roberts: And the big shock can actually be sometimes the fact that we're actually in fertility treatment can be quite a shock.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 38:47
  Sarah Roberts: But the big shock can be the first failed cycle.
• 38:50
  Sarah Roberts: And that can be the point where we go, hang on.
• 38:53
  Sarah Roberts: I just thought egg sperm, in body, done deal.
• 38:57
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 38:58
  Sarah Roberts: Um so one of the things I notice for women is that when they first come in, it's just this really strong sense of, yep, it's gonna happen.
• 39:08
  Sarah Roberts: It's all just about getting pregnant, it's a medical procedure.
• 39:10
  Sarah Roberts: I leave, it's behind me, and I don't have to think about it again.
• 39:15
  Sarah Roberts: As time unfolds, I notice that for women there can be other factors that come into play in their decision making.
• 39:23
  Sarah Roberts: So things like no regret.
• 39:26
  Sarah Roberts: I don't want to look back on this.
• 39:27
  Sarah Roberts: Um and regret that it didn't happen.
• 39:33
  Sarah Roberts: I don't want to, I you know, maybe it's for somebody who thinks they have a very low chance of it happening, but they want to know, am I still producing eggs?
• 39:40
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah.
• 39:41
  Sarah Roberts: I don't want to spend the next 10 years hoping that I'm gonna have kids if I'm not producing eggs and if they're not good quality.
• 39:47
  Liz Walton: Yeah.
• 39:47
  Sarah Roberts: It might be um, yeah, um, they're probably the main ones.
• 39:52
  Sarah Roberts: There's a few other ones like they're not coming to mind at the moment, but I'll talk more in the workshop about that.
• 39:56
  Liz Walton: Yeah, yeah, no, of course.
• 39:57
  Liz Walton: And I love it.
• 39:58
  Liz Walton: I love it.
• 39:58
  Liz Walton: I'm sorry, my daughter just came in.
• 40:00
  Liz Walton: Oh, totally fine.
• 40:01
  Liz Walton: Hello.
• 40:02
  Liz Walton: Hello, little one.
• 40:05
  Liz Walton: Sorry, that's right.
• 40:06
  Liz Walton: She's came in and got out.
• 40:07
  Liz Walton: So um, so with that, I think it's you know, understanding that the decision isn't about we're a bad person and we've made it bad.
• 40:18
  Liz Walton: We're doing the best we can.
• 40:19
  Liz Walton: Oh, and it's it's knowing that, isn't it?
• 40:22
  Sarah Roberts: Yeah, and offering ourselves this grace.
• 40:24
  Sarah Roberts: And what I love about what you're doing with the Australian Fertility Summit is that to have that level of access.
• 40:33
  Sarah Roberts: Because you know, when you're, I don't know if you felt like this, but when I went to the fertility clinic, I felt a little bit like it felt a little bit like being in a cattle yard and I was being in seminary.
• 40:42
  Sarah Roberts: It's an awful metaphor, isn't it?
• 40:44
  Sarah Roberts: But it's like you'd go in there early in the morning, there'd be dozens of people going through, there'd be everybody lined up for the bloods, there'd be, do you know what I mean?
• 40:52
  Sarah Roberts: There'd just be appointment after appointment.
• 40:54
  Sarah Roberts: And um to have this level of access, like you know, you'd go into the clinic, it'd be like, you know, deering the headlights a bit.
• 41:04
  Sarah Roberts: If you remembered the questions you wanted to ask, you knew that there just was limited time.
• 41:09
  Sarah Roberts: To be able to actually have access to this level of expertise, this number of people who can really give you some answers and really just paint the whole picture for you.
• 41:21
  Sarah Roberts: It's just so, so helpful.
• 41:23
  Liz Walton: Yeah, it is, it is, and I hope so.
• 41:25
  Liz Walton: That is my deepest prayer.
• 41:27
  Liz Walton: Thank you so much, Sarah.
• 41:29
  Sarah Roberts: It's so welcome.
• 41:30
  Sarah Roberts: And thank you, Liz.
• 41:31
  Sarah Roberts: This is just such a blessing to oh you are such a blessing, you know.
• 41:36
  Liz Walton: Thanks, Donna.
• 41:37
  Liz Walton: It's a mutual love fest, isn't it?
• 41:39
  Liz Walton: It is, it is.
• 41:40
  Liz Walton: If you had a top tip to um leave um with, what would that be?
• 41:46
  Liz Walton: I know it might be a terrible going a top tip, but if there was a little top tip you could leave with going, and then we can we can finish with some love.
• 41:55
  Sarah Roberts: I think it was what you just said almost, which is um just to offer yourself some grace, just that beautiful self-compassion around, oh, this is actually pretty hard.
• 42:08
  Sarah Roberts: And it's okay if I'm feeling wobbly, and you know, just to go really gently with yourself.
• 42:15
  Sarah Roberts: I know that for so many people there might be there's pregnancy announcements, or there might be hens parties, or there's all that sort of stuff that they can be invited to.
• 42:24
  Sarah Roberts: People might make comments, when are you gonna have kids?
• 42:26
  Sarah Roberts: blah, blah, blah.
• 42:26
  Sarah Roberts: Just to set some beautiful boundaries around yourself and around your heart and around your experience.
• 42:34
  Sarah Roberts: And it's okay to go gently with yourself.
• 42:38
  Liz Walton: Um I love that.
• 42:40
  Liz Walton: Sarah, thank you so much for taking the time out of your beautiful day to chat with us today.
• 42:45
  Liz Walton: I'm so grateful.
• 42:47
  Liz Walton: And um, I think this is a beautiful way to finish with that.
• 42:51
  Liz Walton: And so for today, it is go gently with yourself, hold yourself tenderly because um our journey in life, our journey in fertility, um, can be challenging.
• 43:04
  Liz Walton: And so remember to hold ourselves gently.
• 43:06
  Liz Walton: And with that, I will bid thee good night and good day.
• 43:13
  Helen Zee: Thanks for joining us at the Home of Fertility.
• 43:16
  Helen Zee: We hope today's episode brought you clarity, comfort, and connection.
• 43:22
  Liz Walton: If this podcast resonated, please share it.
• 43:25
  Liz Walton: Leave a review or subscribe.
• 43:28
  Liz Walton: This helps us support more people that are on this path.
• 43:32
  Helen Zee: And if you'd like to connect or share your story, find us on Instagram and Facebook at Australian Fertility Summit.
• 43:41
  Liz Walton: Remember the missing piece might be waiting in a story.
• 43:44
  Liz Walton: Your body's wisdom, or something new, just made for you.
• 43:50
  Liz Walton: Take care, and we'll see you next time.