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Transcript

Roast the Post LIVE: Happy Hour · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:08
  We are live.
• 0:09
  Hi.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Paul.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hi.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hi Jen.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is kind of fun.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: We've never done this before.
• 0:21
  We are live on Substack and you know I realize that I'm gonna
• 0:24
  sound a bit like a
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: goof when I actually look at the replay and I'm like what's going on?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: My goodness.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: My goodness.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's good to like look at you.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually in a live sitting next to each other.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, which is interesting.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Jen and I are in the same city which never
• 0:42
  happens because I live in Toronto and she lives in Victoria
• 0:44
  which is on the other
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: side of the flipping country
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: and Canada's a big place.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Canada's a big place, that is 3500 kilometres
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: or something... no idea...
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea all I know is that it's three hours time change
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm a little bit loopy.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just have a question Paul for you do you think that
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: it says waiting for me to join do you think that matters at all?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: No I don't think it
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: matters
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're live, we're recording, we're here.
• 1:18
  I mean you can like join your phone if you want or something
• 1:22
  but I don't know.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it matters.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we are in a pub in Toronto.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: We do have food.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers everybody.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's happy hour.
• 1:34
  It's happy hour and we have some questions that people have
• 1:38
  submitted,
• 1:38
  so I think
• 1:39
  what we're going to do is wait for a few people to join in on
• 1:41
  this live and then
• 1:44
  we're going to start ripping through the questions so this
• 1:46
  is...
• 1:46
  it's an interesting
• 1:47
  Des,
• 1:47
  I can't remember where you're located,
• 1:49
  but let us know where you're joining us from.
• 1:54
  And,
• 1:54
  you know,
• 1:55
  worst case scenario,
• 1:56
  we can start answering some questions.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think, Paul?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start answering some questions because,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: we've got all those questions that people submitted.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're in the UK.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's, geez, it's what, like 10.30 for you?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's a little bit late.
• 2:13
  Yeah,
• 2:14
  I mean,
• 2:14
  we've got all those questions that people submitted ahead of
• 2:17
  time.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:19
  There's probably about 30 questions that people submitted ahead
• 2:23
  of time,
• 2:23
  which is really cool.
• 2:24
  So I assume that a lot of people are going to watch the recap
• 2:28
  later because they
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: couldn't make happy hour with us.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Totally cool.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we wanted to take questions ahead of time.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we will do our absolute best to give you the answers that you seek.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:41
  and again Paul and I are side by side I refuse to turn to look
• 2:45
  at you Paul because
• 2:46
  I checked out the angle on the screen and it was not flattering
• 2:48
  so I'm not going to
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: turn to look at you even though I'm right here.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: That is Jen's hand.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's my hand
• 2:57
  okay so let's get to some questions here and please don't mind
• 3:00
  us like this is a
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: true happy hour we're gonna have some drinks we've got some food here
• 3:07
  and we're just going to get into it and please if you have any
• 3:10
  questions go for it
• 3:11
  in the chat let us know also maybe how you heard about this
• 3:13
  live so we can make
• 3:16
  sure that we are you know getting the message to the right
• 3:19
  people who want to be
• 3:22
  part of this kind of thing so yeah here's a question I'm going
• 3:24
  to ask you that was
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: submitted cool
• 3:27
  in a better world what would the job seekers experience look
• 3:29
  like if you could have
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: it your way and I'm gonna let you answer that first Paul.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Wow that's a big
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: question who submitted that question?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is our friend Chief Absurdist Officer.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right on.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge question what would the
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: candidate experience look like in our perfect world... you know for me
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've been on both sides of the fence, really.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've been a hiring manager before.
• 4:03
  I've participated in dozens of recruitments,
• 4:05
  over my career,
• 4:06
  as a hiring manager.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I've also been someone who's looking for a job, like most of us have.
• 4:15
  and for me,
• 4:17
  the hiring experience...
• 4:19
  it is really lacking in a lot of ways
• 4:21
  and I think that good communication,
• 4:24
  timely communication,
• 4:25
  and setting expectations
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: are things that a lot of companies really fall short with...
• 4:32
  So perfect candidate experience is,
• 4:33
  regardless of whether or not something goes your
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: way,
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: communicate what's ahead.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: set out the timeline for the recruitment that you're running as a
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: company,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: tell your candidates,
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: we're accepting applications until this date, we're gonna look at them by
• 4:53
  this date,
• 4:55
  we're going to get back to everybody who didn't make our
• 4:57
  initial screen
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: by this date, and we're looking to make a hiring decision by this date.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: The
• 5:03
  more that you can set expectations with people,
• 5:05
  the more informed they are,
• 5:06
  and I
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: found a lot of the stress and tension
• 5:11
  that comes from looking for a job if you're on the candidate
• 5:17
  side is just not knowing.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: there's that whole black hole thing going on where they say,
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: I disappeared into the black hole of the ATS and I never,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: ever heard again.
• 5:27
  that sucks,
• 5:27
  and that's like the worst of it...
• 5:30
  so start there,
• 5:30
  you know a perfect
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: candidate experience really includes great communication.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's also things like
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: respect that are really important, I think, in my perfect experience you
• 5:43
  wouldn't have any of these video screen things where you're
• 5:48
  talking to like Loom or
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: YouTube or you're talking to an AI to do your video screen, like, they're
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: very, very strange...
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: You never know how your likeness is going to be used with those.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is your likeness and your voice going to be used to train some AI model?
• 6:05
  Nobody ever talks about that,
• 6:06
  and I think a lot of companies that use these
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: platforms,
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: they also don't know.
• 6:10
  They don't look that carefully at the T's and C's in the
• 6:12
  privacy policy of the
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: providers that they use, so they don't even think of it.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: But as someone who's looking
• 6:19
  for a job,
• 6:19
  like,
• 6:19
  I think about that a lot and it bothers me when I don't know
• 6:21
  the
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: answers to that because we're in uncertain times
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: So perfect experience,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: good communication,
• 6:29
  respect,
• 6:29
  and do your best to communicate what the job is going to be
• 6:34
  like,
• 6:37
  what the role is going to be like and also what working at the
• 6:39
  company is going to
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: be like.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Jen and I we find with with looking at job ads that a lot of them are a
• 6:48
  little bit light on details,
• 6:51
  you know,
• 6:51
  we roasted one last week that was a...
• 6:52
  recorded
• 6:54
  one last week,
• 6:55
  anyway,
• 6:55
  that was pretty much half finished and it was such a great job
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: ad, but it just stopped it drove off a cliff.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And as the candidate, you have to think
• 7:04
  to yourself,
• 7:06
  you're obviously going to be thinking to yourself there...
• 7:08
  okay,
• 7:10
  what else,
• 7:11
  so you guys just stopped writing this job ad and posted it...
• 7:14
  what does that
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: say about the company?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: What does that say about the leadership?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does that say
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: about what it's going to be like to work there?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you do your best to
• 7:24
  really talk about what that experience of working at the
• 7:26
  company is going to be
• 7:28
  like,
• 7:28
  you know,
• 7:28
  you nail all those things...
• 7:29
  the candidate experience is going to be pretty
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: good, no matter how the chips fall with
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: hiring and whatnot, rejections
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: aren't the end of the world, right?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think my response for this is a little bit shorter.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: The question for anyone joining me... ... are you saying I talk too much?
• 7:49
  ...
• 7:50
  have some fries,
• 7:51
  Paul,
• 7:51
  no,
• 7:51
  the question is "In a better world,
• 7:53
  what would the job
• 7:54
  seeker's experience look like if you could have it your way and
• 7:56
  I think like my
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: main answer for that is reciprocity.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's making sure that it's a two-way
• 8:04
  process and it's not just this,
• 8:06
  like,
• 8:06
  performative audition to get this role.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be...
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: there has to be some kind of reciprocity.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's something for the candidates, give
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: the candidates time to ask questions.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's so wild when you do like, even a phone
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: screen, and you don't have the opportunity to ask any of your questions.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's ridiculous.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then going back to something that, I mean, I could go into a
• 8:27
  lot of detail and I've written,
• 8:28
  Paul and I actually kind of connected by co-writing
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: a piece together about how we would kind of
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: work...
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, collaborate between hiring manager and HR on a better
• 8:38
  process,
• 8:38
  so we do have that on both of our Substacks,
• 8:39
  but going back to something
• 8:44
  that you said about those video type things,
• 8:46
  like,
• 8:46
  record yourself answering this
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: question or whatever...
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't vibe with that,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: then you should actually respond to,
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: the hiring manager or the recruiter by saying,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to withdraw from the process.
• 9:03
  I just wanted to let you know that you have no information
• 9:05
  about what you're going
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: to do with this data.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now you've got my likeness.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: How are you going to use this?
• 9:11
  I know some people are like,
• 9:12
  whatever,
• 9:12
  they'll find a candidate who's willing to do it anyway.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's absolutely true.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: But the more of us who say, I'm not f&cking with this,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: the better.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: So make your voice known and your values heard, and hopefully we can stop
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: with that tomfoolery.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about this before, what is the purpose of
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: having these recording things?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not to save time, because you're gonna
• 9:35
  have to watch them anyway,
• 9:35
  so why not just do a phone screen or an intro call with
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: people?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand what the value is, so yeah.
• 9:44
  A lot would change in the experience if it were up to me,
• 9:46
  or up to Paul,
• 9:47
  or any of us,
• 9:50
  I'm sure,
• 9:50
  on this call but starting with those types of things...
• 9:52
  absolutely giving
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: feedback too is like, as a candidate, like you said
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: you should tell the person you're going to withdraw because of A,
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: and C.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good feedback.
• 10:06
  For companies and hiring teams that really actually care about
• 10:08
  having a good
• 10:12
  process,
• 10:12
  and they care about the candidates,
• 10:14
  and they care about their brand and what
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: they're doing out there in the labour market,
• 10:20
  that feedback's really useful,
• 10:20
  because I can tell you it's very,
• 10:22
  very rare that hiring
• 10:27
  teams get unprompted direct feedback from candidates on their
• 10:30
  hiring experience,
• 10:31
  how
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: they do things, and a lot of the time when you're on the hiring side,
• 10:36
  you're just guessing,
• 10:39
  like,
• 10:39
  you're making up your experience based on kind
• 10:42
  of what you've been taught,
• 10:44
  or what you've done in the past,
• 10:45
  like,
• 10:45
  it's very
• 10:46
  ad hoc and random and you don't really know if it's working all
• 10:48
  that well from an
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: experiential standpoint.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, don't be afraid to tell people that their stuff is dumb.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Some ATS' do have a survey that you can send out to candidates.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you have that option, do it, and
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: just ask how the candidate experience was.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to acknowledge that we have some people who are joining.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: now... welcome!
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: ... it's so good to see you.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Some familiar names, thank you so much for showing up for us.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think Paul and I were both a little bit nervous for this.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: yeah.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just so you know, we are actually sitting right next to each other.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: See?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's
• 11:22
  my hand,
• 11:22
  but we figure this is probably the easiest way to do it figure
• 11:25
  sh*t out
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: here.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's let's talk about another question.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Here, this is a really good
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: question that was submitted as well I like how it's worded.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: "When an HR employee asks
• 11:38
  about your salary expectations during a job interview,
• 11:39
  is it a good idea to say how
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: much you currently make?"
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:47
  This is a three part question but I'm just going to stop there
• 11:51
  because nobody
• 11:53
  should be asking you how much you make,
• 11:56
  that is so heinous and in some provinces
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: illegal to ask, so that's one.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just get rid of that process altogether.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Two,
• 12:07
  don't tell them how much you're currently making,
• 12:10
  like,
• 12:11
  that's one of the few
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: cards that you hold as a job seeker.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't give it up, so instead of telling them how
• 12:19
  much you're currently making if you're in kind of like,
• 12:21
  between a rock and a hard
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: asked that during an interview,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: you can say something like,
• 12:26
  based on the job description and the scope of the role and my
• 12:29
  market research,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that the salary for this role should be around this much.
• 12:36
  So that's the kind of wording that you can say instead of
• 12:38
  telling them how much you make.
• 12:40
  And then if they're straight up asking you and,
• 12:41
  like,
• 12:42
  bullying you into telling
• 12:46
  telling them how much you make either...
• 12:48
  lie,
• 12:48
  or take that as an indication of what
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: it's gonna be like to work at that company, and then, yeah, walk away.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Again, like you
• 12:58
  have some power to,
• 12:59
  and yes,
• 13:00
  some people aren't in a position where they can just
• 13:02
  walk away from something and they need that income,
• 13:03
  but like,
• 13:04
  just don't allow
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: yourself to get bullied during the interview process.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Have something prepared to say
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: and then stick with that plan all based on the responsibilities, based
• 13:21
  on this market,
• 13:21
  and this location,
• 13:22
  here's what I expect to be paid for the role,
• 13:28
  because that's a really sleazy thing to do to candidates,
• 13:32
  and I don't care for it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: But there are other questions in this one question...
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna see if Paul has anything additional to add.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very good point, that is one of your
• 13:46
  biggest points of leverage on your employer,
• 13:49
  or the prospective employer,
• 13:51
  not knowing
• 13:53
  what your current salary is,
• 13:55
  like,
• 13:55
  never,
• 13:55
  never,
• 13:55
  ever give out that number,
• 13:56
  unless
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: you're at the very end stage where you're getting to an offer
• 14:01
  and they've offered you one thing,
• 14:02
  and they have an accommodation where they can
• 14:06
  give you a higher number if you can prove that's what you've
• 14:09
  been earning.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay, but during negotiations or before, yeah absolutely never.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Pay
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: transparency laws, this is kind of an area where pay transparency in the
• 14:20
  jurisdictions that have it is fantastic,
• 14:22
  because it allows you to very effectively
• 14:26
  sidestep this question and this bear-trap,
• 14:27
  really,
• 14:28
  by saying simply the range that
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: you posted on the job ad
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: works for me.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let's figure out the rest first, and then we'll talk about money.
• 14:41
  That's absolutely valid if pay transparency is a legal
• 14:44
  requirement where you are.
• 14:45
  So that's kind of my thought about it,
• 14:46
  yeah,
• 14:47
  and I saw that our friend Strategic
• 14:49
  Linguist,
• 14:49
  hello,
• 14:49
  hi,
• 14:50
  asked a question about "Is that a number that they'll latch
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: on to?"
• 14:54
  and the answer is yes,
• 14:55
  they will absolutely latch on to that and then you're...
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: you're stuck in this situation where if you go to offer
• 15:02
  and then you try to negotiate something higher,
• 15:05
  they will go back and say 'but you
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: said this number', so that's why it's really risky to name your price.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Try to
• 15:17
  have a range,
• 15:18
  try to be really strategic about it for the Strategic Linguist
• 15:21
  and
• 15:22
  they will write that down they will highlight it,
• 15:24
  they will make your offer
• 15:26
  based on the number that you said in that interview,
• 15:28
  so be really really careful
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: about that.
• 15:34
  Another question from the same submitter was "What if they
• 15:38
  offer you lower than your
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: current wage?"
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: and then somebody else, a separate person asked pretty much the same
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: thing.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you do if you get low-balled?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sam and Max we're combining a couple
• 15:53
  of questions,
• 15:53
  everyone,
• 15:54
  we don't have to say who Sam is,
• 15:55
  like,
• 15:55
  the one named celebrity
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: on Substack, everyone knows who Sam is, so
• 16:01
  if you want to guess in the chat,
• 16:04
  but we don't even have to say anything more,
• 16:05
  it was
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Dr. Sam, so yeah what are your thoughts on that?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: What if what if your offer is lower than
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: your current wage
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: AKA what if you've got low-balled?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 16:17
  I mean you've got to start kind of with the fundamental
• 16:22
  question...
• 16:23
  'how much will I
• 16:26
  work for',
• 16:27
  really,
• 16:27
  and that's kind of partly 'how much do I need to fund my basic
• 16:33
  necessities and how much do I need to fund my lifestyle and
• 16:36
  what am I willing to
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: actually take', you know, that's kind of like the floor part of it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: The ceiling part of it is 'how much am I worth' and I think that
• 16:46
  lowball offers,
• 16:46
  like,
• 16:47
  the best way to really deal with them is have a solid
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: understanding of those numbers at first.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: What am I willing to work for?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: What
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: do I need to work for, but also what are you worth in the market?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So do your salary
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: research for the area where the role that you're being
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: offered is.
• 17:09
  See what the average wage is and factor in things like years of
• 17:11
  experience,
• 17:13
  factor in things like responsibility,
• 17:14
  direct reports,
• 17:15
  and there are tools on the web
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: that can help you do this.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: One called Payscale has been around forever, there's
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: also stuff on Indeed,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think, that helps you peg your your salary range, so make use of those.
• 17:29
  Figure out,
• 17:29
  kind of / sort of what you're worth in the market and if you
• 17:32
  get a
• 17:33
  lowball offer,
• 17:34
  the way to go about it I find is to just engage in good faith.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: You
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: know, say
• 17:40
  'I can appreciate that that is what you're offering right now',
• 17:44
  that's your
• 17:45
  starting position,
• 17:45
  these are always negotiations right,
• 17:46
  like nothing is ever final,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: say, 'I can appreciate that's what your starting position is in the
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: market
• 17:55
  and,
• 17:56
  based on my experience,
• 17:57
  I think the number is more like this other thing.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: why you made the offer that you did, what goes into that?'
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you can kind of
• 18:04
  peel into issues and get into really negotiation points and
• 18:06
  say,
• 18:06
  alright,
• 18:06
  if you're
• 18:09
  offering that number and if that number is kind of a firm
• 18:12
  number,
• 18:12
  that's what you're
• 18:13
  willing to offer,
• 18:14
  and you're still kind of interested in this job even though
• 18:16
  it's a
• 18:17
  lowball,
• 18:17
  you can get into other topics like 'would you be willing to do
• 18:20
  a four-day
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: work week for that?
• 18:23
  Would you be willing to do extra vacation,
• 18:24
  would you be willing to do all this other
• 18:29
  stuff that isn't a hard salary number,
• 18:32
  but adds to the total value...
• 18:33
  health insurance
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: is another one, if you're in Canada there are companies that have...
• 18:42
  I forget what they're called,
• 18:43
  but basically when you're paying your premiums for
• 18:45
  your health insurance,
• 18:45
  which are much lower here than in other places,
• 18:47
  some companies
• 18:49
  have a program where they will let you allocate a certain
• 18:51
  amount of money as you
• 18:56
  see fit outside of that health insurance premium,
• 18:59
  or you can pay the premium
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: with that money, so ask about stuff like that.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Say, 'will you be willing to give me
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: $500 a month, $1,000 a month for healthcare stuff.'
• 19:13
  it can actually end up meaning more to you than additional
• 19:15
  salary if the numbers
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: aren't too,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: too far apart.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Always treat it as a negotiation.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to take or leave the number that they put in front of you.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I totally agree.
• 19:28
  I think going into it,
• 19:29
  like,
• 19:29
  you just need to do a little bit of life math and figure
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: out what are you willing to.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why we need to have salary bands on job postings.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: It pisses me off.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And in some states and provinces, this is a legal requirement.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: It pisses me off.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Just list the salary, band.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a waste of people's time.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just put the salary band in the job posting.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: How hard is that?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And why companies don't do it is because
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: they want to lowball you.
• 19:56
  There's a reason they don't put it,
• 19:57
  because they want to try to give you the lowest
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: possible salary.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, that was a little bit of a sidebar.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's systemic, right?
• 20:06
  Like the reason that this question is even being asked is
• 20:08
  because it's a systemic
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: problem and it just... is infuriating.
• 20:13
  But have that line of what you're willing to accept before you
• 20:17
  even go into the job hunt.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you get lowballed, tradeoffs.
• 20:21
  Like maybe you're getting paid less,
• 20:23
  but you have a better work-life balance or
• 20:25
  whatever it is,
• 20:25
  and then you can also ask,
• 20:26
  like,
• 20:27
  when we're talking about negotiation
• 20:31
  I think Paul's tips were great you don't necessarily have to
• 20:33
  negotiate salary if
• 20:34
  that's,
• 20:34
  like,
• 20:34
  if they won't budge on that,
• 20:35
  then that's fine,
• 20:36
  maybe you can negotiate
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: some other things, but
• 20:43
  you can also ask questions,
• 20:44
  like,
• 20:44
  how are compensation decisions made at this
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: organization?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: What do you have, like, a focal date salary review, where every
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: year in November, you're reviewing salaries and what goes into that?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: What is the
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: process?
• 20:58
  You can ask questions like that to understand,
• 20:59
  and you know,
• 21:00
  if you're like
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: 'Okay, I've done the life math, I know I can take a bit of a pay cut...'
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: I did that when I transitioned from my previous job to my current job.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I took a pretty significant pay cut, because I knew that
• 21:13
  I could afford it at that time and I also had asked the
• 21:15
  questions...
• 21:16
  what does it look
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: like, what's the performance review process, what, you know, when do
• 21:25
  you anticipate that I could make up this,
• 21:26
  because I told them when they made me the
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: offer well that's a pretty significant pay cut...
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I want to work here, I think we can
• 21:32
  make this work,
• 21:34
  but how long do you think it will take for me to make that back
• 21:37
  up?
• 21:40
  And if you're really confident and if you're really competent
• 21:43
  then maybe you just
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: have a timeline of how long can I ride out this pay cut.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it was a year.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I made up that pay cut within a year, so think about the trade-offs.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Think about
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: what you're willing to do,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: willing to sacrifice, I guess, and yeah I guess that was the other
• 22:02
  question was...
• 22:02
  general negotiation tips so I don't know,
• 22:03
  I think we covered that.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I
• 22:06
  know that our friend Chief Absurdist Officer really wants to
• 22:08
  know what we're eating
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: and drinking, so let's let's do a little like cheers happy hour.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have a Guinness.
• 22:17
  I have some kind of white wine that I think I've already had
• 22:22
  too much of,
• 22:23
  so here
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: we are.
• 22:24
  We have some dumplings which neither of us has tried yet,
• 22:27
  and we've got some
• 22:29
  fries kind of hanging out too,
• 22:30
  we got some truffle fries,
• 22:31
  we got some Wagyu beef
• 22:33
  dumplings we got some...
• 22:34
  we're hiding in the back of a pub for those who joined a
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: little bit later,
• 22:42
  and doing a live and just trying to figure out how this all
• 22:45
  works,
• 22:45
  so,
• 22:45
  thank
• 22:46
  you so much everyone for joining us and then I have this weird
• 22:48
  thing happening on
• 22:49
  my computer I'm scared to touch anything,
• 22:50
  because if anyone joined the live that I
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: did with Andrea Chiarelli, I touched things and broke things
• 22:59
  multiple times and shaved like 10 years off of his life,
• 23:00
  so I'm really scared to
• 23:04
  touch anything which is why we're on two,
• 23:05
  like on a split screen instead of next to
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: each other, even though I'm right here.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just trying to make it work so
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: thank you for your patience.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: We've got another question, this is a really good
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: question again, from Matt, "How do interviewers measure cultural fit?"
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Such a
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: good question.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's a crazy question.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Being on the hiring team side of it,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've never thought about how you might quantify cultural fit.
• 23:45
  It's always been,
• 23:46
  for me anyway,
• 23:47
  it's always been more of like a vibes-based thing.
• 23:50
  I tend to approach culture from the standpoint of:
• 23:53
  communicate in the early part of the process.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Communicate the values of the company.
• 23:59
  Communicate what's your purpose,
• 24:00
  what's your mission,
• 24:00
  what's all that stuff.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Communicate some of the human values
• 24:07
  as well,
• 24:08
  like,
• 24:08
  kind of communicate what it's going to be like working there.
• 24:10
  You can kind of start to really paint a picture for candidates
• 24:12
  in that early phase
• 24:14
  through your written materials for your job ad,
• 24:16
  and also through your screening
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: process.
• 24:17
  But then when it gets down to,
• 24:18
  like,
• 24:18
  the later end of it where you're trying
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: to assess 'is this person going to be a good fit?'
• 24:25
  I've always just done it by involving other people on the team
• 24:30
  and getting
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: their perspective on the person and asking questions of them...
• 24:36
  whether it was from an interview where they participated in the
• 24:39
  interview,
• 24:39
  or
• 24:40
  whether it was from,
• 24:41
  like,
• 24:41
  a trial workday or something,
• 24:43
  which,
• 24:43
  trial workdays...
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you got to be really careful about them...
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Gross.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: ...
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're going to do trial workdays...
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you don't want that, don't do them.
• 24:53
  ...
• 24:54
  if you're going to do trial workdays,
• 24:56
  pay them and pay them the rate at what you
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: would pay the real person for their time.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Don't, don't, don't do the free
• 25:04
  thing...
• 25:04
  like that's just skeezy as...
• 25:05
  f&ck,
• 25:06
  I don't like that...
• 25:06
  but trial workdays
• 25:11
  can be great to have people who are on the team thinking about
• 25:15
  bringing this person that
• 25:16
  you're considering onto the team with them,
• 25:18
  you know,
• 25:18
  so I've always asked people
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: after those kind of events whether it's an
• 25:22
  interview,
• 25:22
  or trial workday,
• 25:22
  or project,
• 25:23
  whatever else...
• 25:23
  like,
• 25:23
  what did you think about this
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: person?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about your perception, your perspective on their
• 25:31
  work,
• 25:31
  on how they communicate,
• 25:33
  on how they think...
• 25:34
  critical thinking,
• 25:34
  situational
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: awareness, that kind of stuff.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Try and get a balanced view of what that looks
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: like, but quantifying it.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay, so Jen has thoughts... this is, it's really hard to
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: do live when you're,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: jet-lagged and drinking red wine or white wine... oh my god, see?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm drinking white
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: wine.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, how do interviewers measure cultural fit?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: They don't.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's by gut, it's by vibes, and that's why cultural fit interviews
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: suck... so that's really my answer.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: They don't.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you can have a rubric,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: you can do whatever you want, but at the end of the day when you're
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: including a culture fit in your assessment of a human being,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: you're doing it based on, like, vibes.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, again, any of the articles on
• 26:34
  Uncompliant,
• 26:34
  if you want to check them out,
• 26:36
  about my feelings on cultural fit and
• 26:38
  Paul gave really good answers about that,
• 26:39
  because the reality is companies...
• 26:41
  still do that,
• 26:41
  so my answer kind of sucks,
• 26:42
  but it's true it's not measured.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not measured in a good way.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's measured by still, in 2026, it's measured by who
• 26:56
  you would go and grab a beer with,
• 26:58
  and it's inherently wrong,
• 27:00
  and so it needs
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: to go, but...
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, I mean, that's all I have to say really about that.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's also kind of the
• 27:09
  fundamental underlying question behind "cultural fit" too
• 27:10
  right,
• 27:11
  like,
• 27:11
  do you
• 27:17
  actually need someone who's going to work for your
• 27:20
  organization,
• 27:20
  working on your
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: team to be a "cultural fit"?
• 27:26
  Can you have somebody who doesn't really,
• 27:29
  like,
• 27:29
  get what you're trying to do,
• 27:29
  your
• 27:30
  mission/vision/values and all that but still do a really good
• 27:32
  job,
• 27:32
  and be an asset?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, come on, of course you can.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't we just go to work, do our job and,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: then go home, right?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just... it's too much... it's too much, and we need to get over
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: ourselves.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: There...
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't even get into...
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think we talked about this when we did a
• 27:55
  recording a while back,
• 27:56
  for the Roast the Post podcast,
• 27:57
  so I won't go into
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: it...
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we're getting way too full of ourselves about this.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can
• 28:04
  still do the job and do it really,
• 28:05
  really well,
• 28:06
  and not have "fortitude" as one of
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: your core values.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it... please.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just... too much.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go to
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: another question, because it's a really good one, still by Max here.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, cool...
• 28:22
  Should I say the true reason I'm leaving my current job,
• 28:25
  and in brackets,
• 28:25
  it says
• 28:26
  toxic,
• 28:26
  like...
• 28:26
  do you say because they're gonna ask why are you...
• 28:30
  why is now the right
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: time for you to be looking for a change?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Or however they want to word it.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: a great question.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a good question.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really tricky topic
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: too, right?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because you...
• 28:43
  if you are in a very toxic working environment and that is the
• 28:47
  reason that
• 28:48
  you're leaving,
• 28:48
  because it is so toxic that you are just drained,
• 28:51
  and you're done for,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: and you need to make a change... you're probably a little bit short on
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: trust.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And answering that question honestly requires a lot of trust in the other
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: party.
• 29:07
  So do you think that you would be able to trust them enough to
• 29:10
  be honest with the answer?
• 29:12
  The questions that kind of would circle in my brain are...
• 29:14
  'If I tell the truth,
• 29:17
  are they going to be like,
• 29:18
  oh this person is actually a bit of a flight risk because
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: they're a little bit el f$cko,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: and if I say this... sorry, did you say "el f$cko"?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: ?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah!
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: El f$cko.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I make up sayings.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: All the time.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: That one, actually, I think
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: that was from when I was a kid.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: People would be like running around my
• 29:40
  high school saying you're el-f&cko,
• 29:41
  and I'd be like 'no,
• 29:43
  you're el-f&cko!'
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, like
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: your natural first kind of question is 'can I trust this other party
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: enough to be honest?'
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And in the interviewing process, that's really difficult, like,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: that's a challenge, right?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've always kind of leaned towards what I think of as
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: "sanitized honesty".
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Be kind of honest about why you are leaving, but
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: don't dump your baggage all over the interviewer's desk or anything.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can say stuff like, you know, it's time for me to make a change.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was getting stagnant,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: things were getting flat,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: the environment,
• 30:18
  I didn't feel like it was a great place for me to be to grow in
• 30:20
  the future,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: so I'm looking for new challenges.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Stuff like that,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: it's all kind of in the same ballpark,
• 30:27
  but it doesn't require you to open up and trust the person
• 30:29
  who's asking that
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: question.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, so i have two answers.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: One is that, yes, you should be able to technically
• 30:40
  say 'I'm leaving my current job because it sucks and everyone
• 30:44
  is toxic and it's
• 30:46
  awful',
• 30:46
  like,
• 30:47
  you should be able to say that,
• 30:49
  because it's the truth and everyone has
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: experienced that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: But for some reason, it's taboo to say that.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: as an interviewer, will let people know like hey, like you said, this is
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: a reciprocal process.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: You can say things to me, we want to make sure that
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: we're not bringing you into the same situation you just f&cking left.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Can you
• 31:13
  imagine that you were in this traumatic work situation and
• 31:16
  you're just going into
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: the same situation again?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're just going to be re-traumatized again, so...
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: in an ideal world,
• 31:24
  you should be able to say that you're leaving because it's a
• 31:28
  toxic environment.
• 31:29
  Not every organization is ready to embrace that,
• 31:34
  mostly because organizations are toxic.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and sometimes they don't see themselves as the problem.
• 31:42
  But,
• 31:43
  Paul gave some good tips about what you can say...
• 31:46
  it was time for a change,
• 31:46
  stick
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: to, like, structural type things.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we pivoted, or I think once I
• 31:52
  said something about how when I initially joined the
• 31:54
  organization...
• 31:54
  this is what we
• 31:55
  were focused on,
• 31:55
  because I really like mission-driven organizations,
• 31:57
  but we've since
• 32:00
  pivoted,
• 32:00
  and that no longer aligns with my values and so I'm looking for
• 32:03
  something
• 32:04
  that is closer...
• 32:04
  better aligned to my values,
• 32:05
  so there's lots of things that you
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: can say.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 32:13
  I really do wish that we could explain,
• 32:14
  because what terrifies me is somebody
• 32:17
  getting into the same situation that they just left and it
• 32:20
  takes so much courage to
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: leave a toxic organization.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really... it's really sad.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's also this concept of asking questions as a candidate too.
• 32:35
  A lot of people think that they really can't ask questions
• 32:37
  because it's not their place.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're taking....
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: not actively investigating and evaluating.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's BS.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Ask questions.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Ask tons of questions.
• 32:47
  Like,
• 32:47
  you're interviewing the company as much as they are
• 32:49
  interviewing you.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if they say something like, you know, why did you leave?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can turn that into a question.
• 32:58
  You can be like,
• 32:58
  well,
• 32:59
  you know,
• 32:59
  looking for kind of some dynamic changes.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me a little bit about what this team is?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: In A, or B, or C kind of scenario?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can kind of do stuff like that.
• 33:11
  But if you're coming out of a toxic organization,
• 33:12
  toxic workplace,
• 33:13
  toxic team,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 33:16
  Do everything that you can to make sure you're not going back
• 33:18
  into the same thing,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: painted a different colour.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Ask strategic questions.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: If something about your current workplace was really
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: upsetting to you, like, maybe it was...
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, really poor benefits?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: you're asking questions to what the benefits are like at that company.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just...
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: something...
• 33:39
  I mean,
• 33:39
  that's not benefit,
• 33:41
  I don't know if benefits can be toxic,
• 33:42
  but I just can't
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: think about another example right now.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ask strategic questions, try to
• 33:47
  unearth that,
• 33:47
  but again this depends on whether or not they're giving you
• 33:49
  space
• 33:51
  to even ask questions and a lot of times it's not reciprocal
• 33:53
  and you don't get to
• 33:55
  ask your questions,
• 33:55
  and that's really challenging too,
• 33:56
  so you can do your research.
• 33:59
  I always go on Glassdoor and do as much research as I can about
• 34:01
  the company,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: understanding that
• 34:05
  people are going to be more likely to put negative reviews on
• 34:08
  Glassdoor,
• 34:08
  but even
• 34:09
  the negative reviews are somebody's lived experience and
• 34:10
  there's a lot that you can
• 34:14
  get from that,
• 34:14
  so do your research and just,
• 34:15
  again speaking from a place of privilege,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: where you're like maybe... oh I don't need to apply to this company.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you just
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: have to
• 34:27
  apply to as many companies as possible to find something,
• 34:30
  but just do it,
• 34:30
  go with
• 34:31
  your eyes wide open,
• 34:32
  and know what you're getting into,
• 34:33
  and hopefully if you're
• 34:34
  entering a toxic situation,
• 34:35
  you have a bit more of a toolkit to be able to handle it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you just invest a little bit less of yourself to survive.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then
• 34:44
  there's another really good question,
• 34:45
  again from Max,
• 34:46
  that I wanted to get
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: out there.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: "What if I mess up during an interview?"
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:55
  I mean,
• 34:56
  if you are the kind of person that believes that everything
• 34:58
  happens for a
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: reason,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: then there is no such thing as messing up.
• 35:05
  Messing up is just taking you down the pathway that you're
• 35:07
  supposed to go down.
• 35:10
  I'm not one of those people who believes that everything
• 35:13
  happens for a reason.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we have agency and free will and whatnot.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you mess up in an interview, and man, I've done it before...
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have done some stupid, said some stupid, stupid things in interviews.
• 35:29
  What I've kind of figured out over time is that nothing is
• 35:31
  really permanent.
• 35:36
  If you realize that you have said something kind of bone-headed
• 35:39
  right away,
• 35:39
  or you're
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: worried about how what you said would be taken,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: you can kind of address it right there.
• 35:45
  You can say,
• 35:45
  you know what,
• 35:46
  that answer,
• 35:46
  I don't think it came out the way that I meant it
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: too.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, let's talk about this a little bit more.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is kind of what I actually meant.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make more sense?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have questions about that?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Not everyone can do that.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Not everyone can tap dance on their feet like that in an interview.
• 36:09
  It takes a lot of time and experience to build that kind of
• 36:12
  confidence and
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: self-awareness that works in real time.
• 36:17
  You can address it after the fact in an email,
• 36:19
  like,
• 36:20
  odds are if you've gotten to the
• 36:21
  stage where you're having in-person interviews or,
• 36:23
  you know,
• 36:23
  like one-on-one
• 36:26
  interviews over Zoom or Skype or not Skype...
• 36:27
  Skype's gone...
• 36:28
  Zoom,
• 36:29
  Google Meet,
• 36:30
  whatever
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: else...
• 36:34
  you probably have contact information for at least the
• 36:38
  recruiter,
• 36:38
  if not the person
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: who is interviewing you.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you can just send them an email later, and be like 'You
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: know what?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: When we were talking about X in the interview, I said Y, and that didn't
• 36:50
  really represent what I was thinking in my brain...
• 36:52
  so here's a little bit more nuance
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: and context.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: People appreciate that.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's not gonna sink you, if
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: you do something like that.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that... again, systemically...
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: there's a bigger issue here, and it's that we're trying to have
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: these gotcha moments during interviews, and catch people by
• 37:12
  surprise...
• 37:12
  when really,
• 37:13
  we should be sending questions in advance,
• 37:15
  because that helps
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: to
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: get a better idea of the work behind the work, and people's thinking.
• 37:24
  And it also helps for those who are maybe neurodivergent and
• 37:28
  need to prepare in a different
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: way.
• 37:31
  It doesn't mean that they're going to not be as good at the job
• 37:35
  as someone who can
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: just pull rehearsed answers out of their a$s,
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 37:41
  So again,
• 37:42
  it goes back to the things that are wrong with the hiring
• 37:45
  processes as a whole.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can't fix that right now,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: then if you feel like you messed up during an interview,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: I promise you didn't.
• 37:56
  I would like more context from Max on this question...
• 37:59
  like,
• 37:59
  what did you...
• 37:59
  what do you
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: think was a mess up?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have interviewed so many people and I have heard the
• 38:08
  wildest responses from people and I've never interviewed anyone
• 38:12
  and wrapped up
• 38:14
  and thought 'well,
• 38:14
  they messed that up' I've never thought that ever,
• 38:16
  so it'd be
• 38:17
  interesting to know what you feel like you've messed up on
• 38:19
  during an interview.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because...
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: There yeah...
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: No one interviews perfectly, even if you think you do...
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think of myself as someone
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: who interviews really well,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: but like, I know that's just not true.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: don't worry too much about it.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: I feel a little bit like... sure you can reach out, like
• 38:39
  Paul was saying,
• 38:39
  reach out after the fact and say here's how I would have
• 38:41
  answered
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 38:43
  I don't know how much I would take that into consideration I
• 38:46
  think I would just be like
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's fine.
• 38:52
  I don't even know if I would have time to read their response,
• 38:56
  because as the HR
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: person who coordinates a lot of these interviews or runs the process,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: people email you non-stop when you have an open role.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: They want to ask an opportunity to have a coffee chat.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: They want to ask additional questions.
• 39:12
  I don't know,
• 39:12
  they just want special privileges and you just don't have the
• 39:15
  bandwidth to give that to people,
• 39:16
  so somebody followed up after an interview to tell
• 39:19
  me that they wish that they answered a question differently,
• 39:21
  I would feel something
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: for them...
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't know that would be kind of...
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'd have the space to
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: even review that.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think during the interview itself, you can say... hey can we go back
• 39:34
  to that one question,
• 39:37
  I've had a little bit of thought or time to think about it,
• 39:39
  and
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: would answer differently.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other thing that I've noticed... we're actively
• 39:43
  hiring at the company that I'm working at right now so,
• 39:46
  I'm doing a lot of
• 39:47
  interviews and what I'm noticing from certain people is that
• 39:49
  they're answering too
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: quickly.
• 39:52
  They're like,
• 39:52
  I'm barely done the question and they're already speaking,
• 39:55
  and I just
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: want to say to everyone, like, take a beat.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Slow down.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Think about what
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: they're asking you, and then answer the question.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to dock points
• 40:09
  because somebody took five seconds to think before they answer
• 40:13
  the question.
• 40:15
  One of the notes that I had on a really great candidate was
• 40:18
  that I felt like there...
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: they were showing me the thought process, and it wasn't spectacular.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Too
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: fast... too fast... you can slow down.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay, take the time and, yeah, just think
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: about the answer that is the real answer, and not the formulated answer
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: that you think that they want to hear.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I find that in interviews trying
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: to figure out how a person
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: thinks about something is a... it's a tall order sometimes.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: ask open-ended questions.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can ask tons of open-ended questions.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can ask like
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: directed stuff about very specific topics relevant to the job,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: but people are going to be nervous AF during the interview.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the time, right?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: So are you actually teasing out how they think about a particular topic?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not.
• 41:13
  This is why I actually quite like exercises to be a part of the
• 41:18
  hiring process and
• 41:19
  this is one of the areas where Jen and I kind of diverge a
• 41:21
  little bit,
• 41:22
  because I'm
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: like, yeah, send them a take-home project.
• 41:27
  Jen kind of thinks,
• 41:29
  that's maybe a little bit exploitive,
• 41:30
  and I agree if it's
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: unpaid... if you don't pay them for their time, that's exploitive.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do that.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Pay them
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: an honourarium.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Pay them something that's fair, and this kind of does a couple of
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: things... like number one, if you give them a
• 41:41
  take-home project and there's a price tag attached to it,
• 41:42
  that then has you thinking
• 41:46
  about resources,
• 41:47
  so you're like,
• 41:47
  okay there's actually a cost to doing this,
• 41:50
  so I'm
• 41:51
  going to only do it with people who I think are actually really
• 41:53
  good fits,
• 41:56
  potentially,
• 41:56
  and I'm going to see what they have to say or what they do,
• 41:59
  knowing that
• 42:02
  there's a price tag attached to it,
• 42:03
  so like it's kind of good in a couple of
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: different ways, but yeah...
• 42:10
  And like,
• 42:10
  it's not that I hate take-home assignments,
• 42:15
  even though I do,
• 42:15
  but I think
• 42:18
  that a creative way to see the thinking behind the work is
• 42:23
  during the interview
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: process.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: One of the segments of the interview could be a collaborative work
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: session with people on the team that they would be working with,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: and so, it's a question or whatever and you've got, I don't know,
• 42:38
  20-30 minutes to work out this situation,
• 42:40
  whatever it is,
• 42:41
  that's relevant to the role
• 42:44
  that you're hiring for with a couple of teammates and then have
• 42:46
  them do it in real-time.
• 42:50
  Then it's part of the interview process,
• 42:52
  it's not something additional that they
• 42:54
  have to take home with them and try to fit in,
• 42:56
  in between like the job that they
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: currently have and their family and their other commitments.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: way... that's a workaround that I...
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like a co-working session.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: ... yeah, like a co-working session, a collaborative co-working session.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing too wild, so just get an idea of how they work.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: And see, like, you can see from that, are they a leader?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Are they assigning?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Are they delegating?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: How are they working with their potential future teammates?
• 43:25
  So I think that's a really interesting way to go about it as
• 43:27
  well as an assessment.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Reminds me of the popsicle stick bridge thing.
• 43:32
  Let's just get all the candidates to build popsicle stick
• 43:34
  bridges with everybody.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be so much fun.
• 43:36
  Yeah,
• 43:36
  I don't,
• 43:37
  or like those,
• 43:38
  like,
• 43:38
  it's like dried spaghetti and marshmallows.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you're trying to build, like, the tallest structure.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a Canadian thing?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Or do our friends on the chat know what we're talking about?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Those team building exercises.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just sit there and eat the marshmallows.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: But, uh,
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Another question that we have,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just looking at the time and seeing what we've got left here.
• 44:04
  Mike asked a question about our thoughts on digital nomads and
• 44:10
  remote work.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have thoughts?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:17
  So there are kind of two perspectives to look at with that one,
• 44:20
  and kind of think about.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: The one perspective is...
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: you being a digital nomad.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's viable?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: market for that kind of talent?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: The other perspective is, should you hire them?
• 44:35
  Should you hire people that are working remote from not their
• 44:37
  home country,
• 44:37
  like a
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: beach in Thailand or whatever else?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah two perspectives.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Personally for me,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: the digital nomad lifestyle as a worker,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: if I was in my twenties and that was a thing back then,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely would have done it.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, have laptop... will travel.... etc etc.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: And kinda set your own work and office space, set your own hours...
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: maybe a little bit... don't know.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be great.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: What I do kind of find, talking to people
• 45:15
  who do that sort of thing now,
• 45:18
  is that some of them say it's not *quite* as advertised.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, you will eventually get to a point
• 45:27
  where you feel a little bit adrift,
• 45:29
  and you don't feel like you have roots.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: For some
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: people, not really a big deal.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: For other people, huge deal.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it becomes a
• 45:38
  really big problem for them,
• 45:39
  so you kind of got to know yourself before you get
• 45:42
  into doing that kind of what I think about it,
• 45:44
  I don't know,
• 45:44
  maybe you want to take
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: on the other perspective, like should you hire digital nomads?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry, there's
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: a big giant fruit fly and I didn't realize that my hand would do this and
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just getting progressively...
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: I need... the food is right next to us, and I have an
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: empty stomach, and I've had just enough
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: enough wine... okay, so thoughts on digital nomads and remote work.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Should you... yeah...
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: My answer is yes to that.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Those are my thoughts... yes, hell yes, and absolutely
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: yes and also, yes.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is to me the way of the future.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is an employee-employer
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: value proposition, to be able to have employees
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: who are free to work from different locations, to travel while they work.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: If anybody read the Not Rising inaugural edition where I was featured,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: thank you Chief Absurdist Officer,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about abolishing the Monday to Friday 9-to-5 thing.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: ... it's goofy...
• 46:48
  I am a very competent and hard worker,
• 46:52
  it does not take me 40 hours a week to do my
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: job, and if it did, I think I would be mortified by that.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can do my job very
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: efficiently at this point, very quickly, and very well.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I shouldn't have to be chained to my desk
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: in order to do my job.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just... it's the way of the future.
• 47:16
  It's how you differentiate yourself as an organization that
• 47:21
  people would want to work at.
• 47:22
  I have worked remotely since COVID,
• 47:24
  and it would be very challenging for me to go
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: back to an office.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't know.
• 47:29
  I wouldn't even know how to be,
• 47:31
  I would go into an office and be like...
• 47:32
  a weird robot.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't even know how to interact with people anymore.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 47:40
  for me,
• 47:42
  what I realized by going remote was that I have certain,
• 47:45
  I guess,
• 47:45
  like
• 47:46
  social limitations and going into an office environment drains
• 47:49
  me and doesn't allow
• 47:53
  me to produce my best work,
• 47:53
  and so being a remote worker to me has unlocked
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: so much.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are a lot of people like me out there.
• 48:04
  The one thing I will say to be careful with for digital nomads
• 48:07
  is...
• 48:07
  there are tax
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: implications for the employer and for the employees.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to be really mindful.
• 48:12
  So I think if you have a very thoughtful policy and process on
• 48:17
  that and you're very clear,
• 48:20
  then
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: why wouldn't you...
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's something to be said
• 48:24
  about now,
• 48:24
  if you're at an organization that's fully remote,
• 48:25
  that's different.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: If
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: you're at a hybrid organization, are there more
• 48:31
  opportunities for someone who is at the office and maybe
• 48:36
  proximity to leadership or
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: decision-makers?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't give a sh*t about that and you
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: just want to travel and do your thing, then who cares?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: Live your life, right?
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, those are my thoughts.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about, the other week, I don't
• 48:54
  think that this episode of Roast the Post has gone out yet,
• 48:57
  but we were talking the
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: other week about how
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: you don't always have to, at a company, have a pathway to progression,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: professional development, advancement, whatever.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: Companies aren't... they don't need
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: to offer that.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's better when they do, especially if they're
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: trying to...
• 49:15
  and they're trying to retain people long-term,
• 49:17
  and build a really resilient
• 49:18
  organization,
• 49:18
  having those pathways in place,
• 49:19
  it helps...
• 49:20
  do that,
• 49:20
  but you don't need to
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: do that as a company just because someone tells you to do it.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: You can just have, like,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: these are the jobs that we have, these are the responsibilities,
• 49:34
  the functional capabilities we need,
• 49:35
  these are the people we need to fill them.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 49:37
  Done.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, for somebody who is working remote as a digital nomad
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: ... yeah... you know, one of those could work.
• 49:45
  And this goes back to...
• 49:45
  why does your employer have to be all of the things to you?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're in this this place now where it's like,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: they have to fulfill all of these things for me.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: They have to tick all of these boxes for me.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no way.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Go make it.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Go make
• 50:00
  your life what you want it to be,
• 50:01
  without relying on your company to tick all of
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: these boxes for you.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a very successful and happy life and career
• 50:09
  by being an individual contributor,
• 50:10
  by just kind of doing your thing and staying in
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: your lane.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why we have these, and for some people it's very valid and
• 50:17
  they want to be...
• 50:17
  they want to,
• 50:17
  like,
• 50:17
  climb the corporate ladder or whatever...
• 50:19
  that's
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: totally fine, but I think that we just need to shift
• 50:27
  as a society,
• 50:28
  what work actually means to us,
• 50:29
  and we need to get back into
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: being creators and all of us here right now, you know, who are...
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: maybe mostly from Substack are doing that, right?
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're finding that fulfillment from
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: something other than just
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: clocking in and clocking out.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's phenomenal.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think we've got like seven minutes left of our schedule.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know, were we supposed to be doing this for an hour?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: We can go a little bit later.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: If people gotta go, they gotta go.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say,
• 51:01
  I don't want our friends who are so kind,
• 51:02
  because I think that this is the world
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: record for lowest attended Substack Live.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you feel like you need to go,
• 51:10
  please don't feel like you're gonna hurt our feelings,
• 51:12
  it's so nice that you even
• 51:15
  showed up,
• 51:17
  but I think maybe we can ask one more question here...
• 51:20
  so one,
• 51:20
  this
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: is a really good one, "what is the length of the typical hiring process?"
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 51:27
  there's two that I want to ask from this one,
• 51:29
  so let's keep this one brief and then
• 51:31
  we'll ask that final question so...
• 51:32
  what is what is the length of the typical hiring
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: process?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: It depends, that's what I think.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that being a little bit cheeky, but it really does depend.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hiring processes that unfold in public organizations,
• 51:51
  like,
• 51:52
  you know,
• 51:53
  governments,
• 51:54
  municipalities,
• 51:55
  crown corps,
• 51:55
  that type of stuff.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: They tend to be really, really long.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: They do not unfold quickly.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a bunch of reasons for that.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: There are legacy systems in place.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's usually much...
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: stricter compliance and fairness requirements for the hiring process.
• 52:07
  Typically those processes don't use a ton of technology and
• 52:08
  automation to augment them.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: So they tend to unfold very slowly.
• 52:10
  Typically those processes don't use a ton of technology and
• 52:17
  automation to augment them.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they tend to unfold very slowly.
• 52:21
  private organizations,
• 52:22
  especially on the smaller side,
• 52:24
  can unfold real quick.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: And when I've been on the hiring side,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: especially at smaller companies,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: smaller organizations,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: I tend to structure the hiring process in such a way that it
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: moves along at a good clip.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I really don't like the hiring process from
• 52:44
  putting the job ad out there to making an offer to go more than
• 52:47
  three weeks.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is usually what I shoot for.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Three weeks, start to finish, good to go.
• 52:52
  The more time that you leave in the hiring process,
• 52:53
  the more the probability that
• 52:57
  someone who you really want to join the firm is going to be
• 53:00
  picked up by somebody
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: else.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it depends on the organization.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: If it's a really long,
• 53:10
  drawn-out process and it isn't like a government type role,
• 53:12
  because that's
• 53:13
  to be expected,
• 53:13
  as Paul mentioned,
• 53:14
  then it means that they don't have their sh*t
• 53:17
  together and so,
• 53:17
  that is an indication of what it's going to be like working
• 53:19
  there
• 53:22
  I'm not saying that a faster hiring process is necessarily
• 53:26
  better,
• 53:26
  but it really
• 53:28
  shouldn't be this long,
• 53:29
  drawn out...
• 53:30
  like I personally think three rounds.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't decide who your ideal candidate is
• 53:37
  because you should know who your ideal candidate is before you
• 53:40
  start the process,
• 53:41
  have an ideal candidate profile ready to go and then you will
• 53:43
  know them when you
• 53:46
  see them,
• 53:46
  like,
• 53:46
  then it will...
• 53:47
  they will start to reveal themselves,
• 53:48
  so no more than
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: three interviews in my opinion.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's taking longer than that, then there
• 53:56
  are some organizational issues happening and the candidates are
• 53:59
  being punished as a
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: result, and they're going to go somewhere else,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: so yeah, it really does depend.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: Last question.
• 54:11
  Thoughts on letting employees push out their start date or do
• 54:13
  they need to start immediately?
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love this question.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've always looked at this issue as
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: as kind of a necessity-driven thing.
• 54:32
  If you're bringing on an employee who is employed at another
• 54:37
  firm,
• 54:38
  they've got a notice period.
• 54:39
  They've got a notice period,
• 54:41
  they can't really start before their notice period is
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: up at the at the other firm.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've come across things in the past, where people have
• 54:49
  said,
• 54:49
  'you know,
• 54:49
  I really want to accept this offer,
• 54:50
  but I have kind of these
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: things that are already booked.'
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, one person that I hired...
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: probably about eight years ago... she said, can we talk about start date,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: whatever, I was like, yeah for sure.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: What do you need?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: I assume you
• 55:08
  have like two weeks or three weeks notice period or whatever,
• 55:09
  and she was like,
• 55:10
  well...
• 55:12
  I'm actually getting married in three days,
• 55:13
  and I was hoping to go on a honeymoon
• 55:15
  and I was,
• 55:15
  like,
• 55:15
  cool I mean,
• 55:16
  congratulations good for you,
• 55:17
  you've got your flights and
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: stuff booked, I'm sure?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you've got all that kind of sorted out and she
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: looked at me kind of sheepishly, and she was like
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, and I really don't want to have to cancel.
• 55:31
  And I was like,
• 55:31
  no,
• 55:31
  you're not going to cancel any of this to start working for us.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: When do you fly back?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, I fly back on X.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, where are you flying back
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: from?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, it was somewhere like Bali or something, like it was in
• 55:47
  Southeast Asia,
• 55:47
  sounded really nice,
• 55:48
  and and I was like,
• 55:49
  okay,
• 55:49
  cool,
• 55:49
  so you know you're
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: flying back on this day why don't you start a week after?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: That'll give you time to
• 55:56
  kind of decompress,
• 55:56
  and you know,
• 55:57
  get rid of the jet lag and whatever else,
• 55:59
  like we'll
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: make it work, it's all good.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, *what?!
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: * And I was like, yeah, it's all good.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: Here are my thoughts on that...
• 56:10
  I think that every single new hire should have their first week
• 56:14
  at the new company
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: as paid vacation.
• 56:19
  I do not want someone joining an organization who just had
• 56:22
  their last day on a
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Friday and started the new org on a Monday.
• 56:26
  I want to reset,
• 56:28
  especially when we go back to toxic work environments and
• 56:30
  stuff.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a really long time to deprogram from a toxic work environment.
• 56:35
  You're bringing some of those coping mechanisms into your new
• 56:37
  organization...
• 56:37
  it...
• 56:37
  you
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: don't need to... you need a reset.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that the way forward is giving
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: every single new hire the first week off, paid.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: What are we doing?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are you hiring
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: someone because you need them to save someone's life immediately?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, this
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: person is gonna die or civilization is gonna die?
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, then maybe, but otherwise...
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: what are we doing here?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let people have some breathing room.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: Why is everything so
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: urgent?
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some companies might argue they can't afford it.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't buy that, I think that they can.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: Give them their first week as paid vacation, and make it mandatory.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: And let them come in
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: and really, truly, be empowered to do what you hired them to do.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: you hired them to do.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my philosophy on that.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I like that.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're
• 57:26
  at time,
• 57:26
  so there is one final question that I saw on the list there
• 57:29
  that I wanted
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: to throw out this one is from
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: Taryn?
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the question is... where in the world is Carmen Sandiego?
• 57:43
  I don't know who you are or where you are right now,
• 57:44
  but I love you for asking that question.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is that for real?
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's on the sheet.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think Carmen Sandiego right now is probably in Hong Kong.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: I hear it's beautiful this time of year for Carmen Sandiego people.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's Trish.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: I see it.
• 58:03
  I don't know if the people here even know what we're talking
• 58:06
  about,
• 58:06
  where in the
• 58:07
  world is Carmen Sandiego,
• 58:08
  I don't know but I wish her well,
• 58:09
  Queen,
• 58:09
  you do you.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: She's a
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: nomad.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, for sure, she's a nomad worker.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep thanks for the
• 58:20
  question Trish,
• 58:21
  and for everybody else who sent in questions,
• 58:22
  very much appreciated.
• 58:23
  We didn't get time to get to all of them,
• 58:25
  as usual,
• 58:25
  Jen and I blabbed a whole lot,
• 58:26
  as
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: we do, I hope that's why you like us because we just blabbed
• 58:31
  I think though,
• 58:31
  we can maybe do a one-off where we answer these questions?
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think we
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: owe it to the people, so thank you so much everyone for joining us.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was
• 58:42
  really fun,
• 58:42
  and yeah just thanks for showing up for us,
• 58:44
  we really appreciate it.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: From the pub, see ya later.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: Byyiiieeee.