Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #369: Kevin Donner-Bucknell University | From $1,000 Stipend to 25 Years of Building a Championship Culture

Transcript

#369: Kevin Donner-Bucknell University | From $1,000 Stipend to 25 Years of Building a Championship Culture · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

• 0:02
  You're listening to the Guild Athletics Connections podcast
• 0:05
  with host Mike Cunningham. Track and field world UNL tuned
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  in to our humble servant Mike Cunningham for another
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  extraordinary message for Guild Athletics connections.
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  All right, we're back here on the Guild Connections podcast
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  again. So grateful that you had pressed
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  play today. I'm pumped.
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  I got a guy here today that, you know, a little long in the tooth
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  and what I mean by that, he's got a lot of experience and I
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  love those because there's a lot to learn from that.
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  So I am going to hop right into it because I want to get to know
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  more about today's guests. Help me welcome the head coach
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  from Bucknell University, the wise, the wonderful Mr. Kevin
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  Donner. Kevin, what's up, man?
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  Welcome to the show. Hey, doing good Mike.
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  Thanks for inviting me and we can't wait.
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  Absolutely, man, I always so one of my little nerd domes is
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  mascots of college and Bucknell is one that I cannot think of
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  off the top of my head, but I feel like it's not something
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  stereotypical like a like a deer, like a buck or something
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  like that. I want to feel like it's like
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  something like, I don't know, I feel like you're up in that
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  area, something Quaker ish, like, you know, up in the
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  Northeast. What is it?
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  I can't even take a guess here. It's a bison.
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  It's the bison, OK. Are there a lot of bison up in
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  that area? There's.
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  None. OK, I guess there was a long,
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  long time ago. OK.
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  Is that how? That's how they got the name,
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  but they're extinct right now and at least in this area.
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  So is it the Bucknell bison? Because plural bison, I think.
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  Is bison now there is no S. OK, I love that because my
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  favorite trivia question in the world is name the college
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  mascots that don't end an S because most of them do, right?
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  Penn St., Any Lions, the Patriots, you know, all that
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  kind of stuff. I don't think I've ever included
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  Bucknell in my answer. I will now.
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  I love that. It's the bison.
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  Yep, there is no plural S in the word bison.
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  What's funny is there's a local high school in Pennsylvania that
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  does go by Bisons, and there is no such thing as Bisons.
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  I was gonna say, is that like somebody going by the fishes
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  like that doesn't? Exist.
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  I don't know, but there's no S in the plural of bison.
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  Yeah, that's what I thought. OK, so help me with that trivia
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  question. Kevin, let's play the game with
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  you. Can you name three schools where
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  the mascot, and you can't say Bucknell because we know now
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  that's one of them. Three other schools where the
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  mascot doesn't end an S. Oh boy, I know, Stanford
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  Cardinal. Cardinal.
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  Very good. Nice Cardinal.
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  Yep. Let's see, I I used to know this
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  years ago. The Thundering Herd of Marshall.
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  Nice. Very good.
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  Most people miss that one. I love that.
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  Nice. Yep, Yep.
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  Let me think of another one here.
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  Let's see. I'm not think it's not coming to
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  me. I know I'll.
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  Give you a hint. Do you know where we're located?
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  Where Gil is located. Not really.
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  Okay, we're in Champaign, IL. Do you know universities and
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  fighting? A line I.
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  Fighting a line I baby. That's it.
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  Yeah, other, some others. Yeah, other popular ones.
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  University of Notre Dame, the Fighting Irish.
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  Fighting Irish, okay. University of Alabama Crimson
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  Tide. And Tide, yeah.
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  Down in two more, I'll give you a Down in New Orleans, we've got
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  the two lane Green Wave. Green Wave.
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  Yeah, right. I'll give you an.
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  Extra 1 actually, because you're up in the Northeast.
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  Saint John the Red Storm. But then also one of my
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  favorites because it's ridiculous is the Tulsa Golden
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  Hurricane, which is ridiculous because there's no hurricane
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  ever in Tulsa, OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it should be
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  the Gordon Golden tornado. I don't know why I.
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  Got to learn, I know, I know. Another one.
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  Saint Francis. Red Flash.
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  Nice, I used. To coach there.
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  Yes, nice, nice, nice. So that's the other reason I
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  like giving that trivia question out, because I learned more.
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  I was like, oh, yeah, There you go.
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  All right, Kevin, I love that. Thanks for entertaining me
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  there. I do appreciate that very, very
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  much. Let's get into our Wayback
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  Machine and learn more about you, my friend.
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  Assuming you're an athlete, and we have certainly know what
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  assuming does to us. Where in the world does track
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  and field start for you? Well, what's funny is I was
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  always baseball, football, basketball growing up.
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  I played all the sports. Then I went to a private all
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  boys Catholic school in Detroit that is a powerhouse and sports
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  and I was on the freshman football team, tried out for
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  freshman basketball. I got cut and then I was on the
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  freshman baseball team and then as a sophomore I was on the JV
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  football team. Didn't bother going out for
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  basketball and then baseball. I got cut from the JV baseball
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  team and I decided to go out for the track team as a 10th grader.
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  And the reason is for conditioning and football
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  practice. We used to run a mile every
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  Monday with full pads and I always was up top.
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  Me and another guy named William Sepla.
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  We were wide receivers and we we always beat all the fat lineman
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  in the mile with full pads. That was that was AJV football.
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  Every Monday. We did that dude.
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  Yeah. And he and this coach made
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  everyone do it. The the big lineman had to do
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  it. Everybody had to do this mile
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  run every Monday and me and Bill Seppala, we're always up front.
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  And a guy named Doug Larson, we we would get out there.
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  And so after I got cut from JV baseball, I decided, well, you
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  know, I always win the mile and the for football practice.
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  Well, maybe I'll be a miler. So I went out for the track team
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  and the coach took me guy named Tony Magni.
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  And you know, I didn't realize I thought you'd run a mile every
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  day, you know, or some sort of speed work thought you ran a
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  mile right. And you know, the first day he
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  told us to run, you know, 6 miles and he gave me a break and
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  said you can run four cuz it's your first day.
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  And it was just an out and back. You know, I'm like, holy crap,
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  this is tough. And but you know, that's how I
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  got started in track. And then at the end of the
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  season, I was not good enough to make the championship meets.
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  And we had a big, big team. So what they did is they it
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  pretty much shut down the the non championship people.
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  And so coach Magny, who's still a great mentor of mine to this
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  day, still coaching in his 60th year, he gives me this packet of
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  workouts for cross country. It says, here you go, Donner,
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  you know, we will see in the fall for cross country, right?
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  And I said, coach, I don't run cross country.
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  I play football, right? It's in the 11th grade is
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  varsity now. And he he made the comment back
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  and said, Donner, you don't play football.
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  You're on the football roster. I've been to the games and I
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  just don't see you playing that much.
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  And I thought to myself, God, you know, he's kind of right.
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  I, I just get in like the last two, two or three minutes when
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  you know, the game's already out of out of hand one way or
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  another. And so I, I go talk to my dad.
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  I said Dad, Coach Magni wants me to go out for cross country and
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  my dad said, yeah, maybe you should, Kevin.
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  I'm kind of tired of going to the games and watching all the
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  other kids play. And so I decided to golf for
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  cross country as a Grade 11 and the rest is history.
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  So pause there. I love the that's fascinating
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  and very not uncommon in the sense of like other sports cuz
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  we watch a lot. You maybe watched football and
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  baseball and basketball growing up on TV.
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  Maybe there's not a lot, there's not a lot of track TV on TV
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  today. There wasn't back then either
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  when you got cut that sophomore year from baseball and you
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  decide to go to track now, obviously your level of
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  knowledge of track is really low cuz you're like, I thought I'd
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  just run a mile a day. Yeah.
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  I knew nothing. Did you know about track,
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  though? Like, did you know, oh, there's
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  gonna be sprinters, there's gonna be some throwers?
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  Like, did you understand that or did you just think it was all?
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  I knew there was a team. I had friends that were on the
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  team, and I knew there were different events.
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  And I still used to watch the Olympics when I was that age.
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  And I used to like to watch track and field.
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  Yeah, but, you know, I didn't know how they trained.
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  I I didn't know exactly what what they did.
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  Yeah. And so.
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  You were happy that you didn't have to wear your pads and
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  helmet to grow. So that's that's nice.
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  That was that was an added benefit, that.
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  Was I did like the guys on the team and I like the much more
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  laid back coaching part, you know, because our football
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  coaches got pretty intense every way and.
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  The Monday mile a little. Practice.
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  They, they weren't like that. And so I I enjoyed that.
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  What's interesting to me though, is I love coaches statement.
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  Sometimes there's a little, some people call it tough love, Some
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  people call it introducing reality to the world of like,
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  hey, Donna, you're on the football team.
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  You don't play football. But you said you didn't even
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  make the championship squad your sophomore year.
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  So it's not like like I would have suspected like, oh man,
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  Kevin came out and killed it. And so coach was like, you need.
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  To replace, but I did go to meets, we had all the dual meets
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  and right now you took me to there's a freshman sophomore
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  meet and yeah, you know, kind of a JV city championship,
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  something like that. So I participate as a sophomore
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  and maybe 8 or 9 meets, you know?
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  What I love about it is it's easy for if you to come out and
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  run 420, it's easy for us to identify like, wow, this kid
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  should be running crowds. That didn't happen, right?
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  Right. But to me, the superpower of a
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  coach is they see something in in other people before they can
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  see it in themselves. Coach saw something you it's
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  like, hey, man, you might enjoy football, but you're a distance
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  guy. You need to be on the cross
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  country this fall. So, OK, it begs the question,
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  you get this and that's all great.
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  And we know the power of football and the pull of it and
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  everything like that. Did you do the summer workouts?
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  And how did the fall come around?
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  I didn't do the exact summer workouts.
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  I wasn't 100% committed. Sure, because there is still.
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  Part of me that was thinking about going back to football,
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  right? You know, So I, you know, I, it
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  took, well, probably all of July before I decided that cross
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  country was going to happen. OK?
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  So I was still kind of training for football.
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  And, you know, I was between my sophomore and my junior year of
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  high school. And like I said it, yeah, I
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  wasn't 100% committed to going out for cross country.
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  And then, you know, coach Magni used to have some non mandatory
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  days at certain parks in the area where, you know, the guys
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  could meet for a run. Just so that, you know, he could
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  legally, you know, coach, he couldn't have formal practice.
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  So, you know, they were non mandatory meetings.
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  And I started going and, you know, about mid-july, and that's
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  when I made the decision that I was going to go out for cross
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  country. What was it beyond the football
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  team? What was it that helped make
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  that? Just the guys on the team that
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  were friendly. Coach Magni was friendly.
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  I realized that, you know, I was going from JV to varsity.
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  I wasn't really playing JV, So what makes me think I'm going to
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  play varsity now? So I just decided, you know, and
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  I was enjoying the running part, even though it was, it was
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  tougher because I just started running, but I, I really enjoyed
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  the guys on the team and I decided to formally make the
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  decision in July. And then he had this cap in
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  Canada at the, the Pontry Provincial Park, which is about
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  two hours from Detroit where the high school is located.
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  And he invited me this cap and it was 2 weeks and 10 S of Lake
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  Erie. And boy, that was a blast.
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  We ran a lot. But, you know, back in the 70s,
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  you know, mileage was high at the high school level.
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  Is that right? Yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah, at least with our program and but it was, it was a
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  blast. I I loved it so much.
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  Did you have a conversation with a football coach that, hey, I'm
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  going to switch sports? Yeah, I did.
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  And he, he, he, he accepted. I mean, it was a loss for him,
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  trust me. And what the hardest part was,
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  they had their football camp and I went to it as AJV also around
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  in Canada, about two hours from Detroit, only maybe 20 miles
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  from where the the Detroit Catholic Central cross country
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  camp was. And so we actually did a 20 mile
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  run the last day of camp to this town and we, you know, met the
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  coaches and the football coaches and, you know, they were very
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  cordial and nice, you know, that they recognize it.
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  I mean, that's I'm sure it happens all the time.
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  Yeah. Trust me.
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  They weren't going to miss me in football.
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  Trust me. Yeah.
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  Sometimes they were they were happy for me and then I I'd
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  still and and in touch with the head coach who retired the head
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  football coach. Very successful football coach.
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  Won multiple state titles including my senior year.
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  That point. Then my biggest regret was the
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  guys I played football with won a state title.
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  I would have been on that team, but probably not playing much.
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  Yeah, yeah. But I would have been on that
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  team but did. You say you're still.
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  I made the decision to do track and field and cross country.
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  Obviously that's what got to me, to where I'm at now.
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  Yeah, right. Exactly.
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  Football, there's no way I'd be attracting cross country coach.
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  Did you say you knew the football coach all the way
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  through? Like still?
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  Yeah, yeah. Did they keep the Mile Monday
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  tradition? They well, that was the JV
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  coach. OK, so.
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  I don't think the varsity coach. OK.
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  All right. Did that.
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  That's what we did that for JV football.
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  It was separate programs. You know it's.
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  It's a football powerhouse where I went.
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  It's OK to make mistakes. We got to continue to develop
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  and and educate ourselves as coaches though, so I was hoping.
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  Yeah. Please don't be doing that
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  today. Maybe when it's third down in a
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  mile that'd be. We got to run where we want
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  them. 3rd down in a mile, that's where where we pay, that's where
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  it pays off. That's right.
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  We're good. We're good.
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  All right, so you're committed. You go into cross country
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  season, tell us about how you know now.
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  You're now you're a track kid. Yeah, I was in.
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  Totally invested in cross country and track and field.
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  I was an average to above average runner on a pretty good
• 15:46
  team. We were state ranked, but we
• 15:49
  weren't contending for state titles.
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  But we were, you know, in that 8th through 15th range.
• 15:56
  So we're it was a pretty solid, solid, yeah.
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  And we had about, you know, 30 guys on the cross country team
• 16:04
  as the program progressed. And my coach Tony Magny started
• 16:09
  who's in his 60th year coaching right now.
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  He's he looks like he's 50 years old too.
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  But anyway, he really developed as a coach and couple years
• 16:20
  after we graduated, he started winning state titles.
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  Our team was his first team that qualified for a state
• 16:29
  championship and I think we were 13th or something like that.
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  But you know, a couple of years later he finished runner up and
• 16:38
  the year after that state title, he he's won six or seven state
• 16:42
  titles since then and he's been runner up a few times, been
• 16:47
  third. Really great, great coach, great
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  program. Like I said, he's in his 60th
• 16:52
  year. That that's one of my great
• 16:54
  mentors. That's awesome.
• 16:56
  Even my first, you know, 7-8 years of coaching University of
• 17:01
  Detroit, I would call him about workouts of what he thought and
• 17:05
  things like that. So and I still talk to him.
• 17:08
  I still see him all the time. Saw him this summer.
• 17:12
  He's actually come to Bucknell a few times as a referee for some
• 17:17
  Patriot League meets at. Oakwood.
• 17:20
  And, you know, and I've had a couple of his athletes that has
• 17:24
  competed for me. I have a long jumper on my team
• 17:26
  right now from the same high school where I went, Detroit
• 17:29
  Catholic Central. We've had a distance runner here
• 17:33
  who actually still owns our mile school record indoors, Andrew
• 17:36
  Garcia Garrison. It's 4 flat .28, I think.
• 17:42
  And you know, and, and I know Coach Magni is very proud of
• 17:46
  that fact and the fact that he's still coaching.
• 17:50
  I still meet with them. I met him.
• 17:52
  I went to one of his summer practices this past summer, you
• 17:55
  know, medical breakfast, and he talked all the time, you know,
• 17:58
  so great, great mentor. He obviously had and has
• 18:02
  continues to this day, a great impact on you.
• 18:04
  I love that. I mean, that is a story.
• 18:07
  I'm glad that is not a unique story.
• 18:09
  And what I mean by that is the impact coaches have on student
• 18:12
  athletes. A lot of times we hear decades
• 18:15
  plus impact. And so I love hearing that when
• 18:18
  you are your junior, senior year, I'm here and you're kind
• 18:21
  of now you're invested, you're a track kid, you know, spoiler, we
• 18:24
  know you become a track coach. What kind of athlete were you?
• 18:28
  And what I mean by that, Like, I really don't care how good I
• 18:30
  don't care if you are. Full flat or 6.
• 18:32
  I wasn't a very guy, right? Exactly.
• 18:34
  Because that doesn't you know how good or not good you are as
• 18:38
  an athlete. 0 correlation I think to whether you're going to
• 18:42
  become a coach or and become a good coach or not.
• 18:44
  But what I am curious about is the mind of Kevin as a 1718 year
• 18:48
  old kid. Are you like, are you meeting
• 18:52
  with coach in in prep period to talk about workouts and why'd
• 18:56
  you do this workout and that workout or because I have a lot
• 18:58
  of grace for 17 year old kids. Were you the kind of kid, the
• 19:02
  athlete that was like, coach told me to run, I ran?
• 19:05
  I was the second one, yeah, I did whatever he said.
• 19:09
  That's how it was. You know, we never questioned
• 19:13
  workouts. We never challenged anything.
• 19:15
  We just, we just did what they told us to do.
• 19:18
  And then, you know, we had a lot of trust in him as a coach and,
• 19:23
  you know, enjoyed it, you know, and some kids worked harder than
• 19:27
  others. And I'll be the first to admit
• 19:28
  that, you know, I probably wasn't 100% invested like a few
• 19:35
  other of the other guys in the distance running at the time.
• 19:39
  It was my first year and even the second year, you know, funny
• 19:44
  story about that. Here's here's a funny story in
• 19:48
  which you know, coach Magny, my my coach knows about it.
• 19:52
  We told him years later, but we used to do the high school was a
• 19:57
  Catholic High School. So during E the week of Easter,
• 20:00
  we had the whole week off and we used to practice in the morning
• 20:06
  for track and field. Anyway I.
• 20:12
  The leader, we had a really great runner on the team named
• 20:14
  Andy Dillon. He ran nine O 8 for 3200.
• 20:17
  That was really good back then. Yeah.
• 20:19
  And ended up running at Notre Dame.
• 20:21
  But he he was the leader of our distance program.
• 20:25
  And there was this restaurant called Uncle John's Pancake
• 20:30
  House. And like every Tuesday there'd
• 20:34
  be, you know, dollar 50 or $2.00, all you can eat pancakes.
• 20:39
  And now granted, this was literally 1979.
• 20:44
  So he says, hey, everybody bring $2.00 tomorrow.
• 20:47
  And when we go out for our eight mile run, we just run over to
• 20:52
  Uncle John's and eat pancakes for about, you know, 45 minutes
• 20:57
  and come back. So we all did that, you know, we
• 21:00
  all, we put $2.00 in our socks or whatever and we jog over.
• 21:04
  So this tells you we weren't 100.
• 21:06
  Percent right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:07
  Yeah, so it was a good program, but but you know what's?
• 21:10
  Cool about that. I know in the immediacy it's
• 21:13
  like, guys, I told you to run eight mile or whatever, you
• 21:15
  know, and you've slipped off the the workout.
• 21:18
  However, those are the kind of eight stories that we tell 30
• 21:22
  years later. Oh, they're fun, right?
• 21:24
  It's also the memory. There's I bet you, you can prove
• 21:29
  me wrong here, Kevin. I bet you if I asked you to list
• 21:32
  all the track meets and the races and what time you ran and
• 21:35
  what places you got, you probably couldn't do it.
• 21:37
  There's there's a few probably rememberable races or things
• 21:41
  like that. But you remember this $2.00, all
• 21:44
  you can eat pancake. I mean, that's in the world of
• 21:48
  world. That's a very small thing, but
• 21:49
  you remember that camaraderie, that part.
• 21:52
  While you may not have gotten the athletic gains, you guys
• 21:55
  gained culture and and. And yeah, talk about skipping a
• 22:00
  workout. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not.
• 22:02
  By the way, if you're, if you're on Kevin's team right now, he is
• 22:05
  encouraging you to skip a workout.
• 22:06
  No, don't. Don't do that.
• 22:07
  Don't. If you do it, don't blame me.
• 22:09
  I don't want him coming at me because you missed the workout.
• 22:11
  But but have fun and memories with your teammates.
• 22:13
  That's, well, that's half the story.
• 22:15
  So we just pig ourselves out, right?
• 22:19
  First stuff and then it's like, well, you know, you know, we're
• 22:23
  we're fin you know, we should be finishing this eight mile,
• 22:26
  right, Yeah, you got. To time it, yeah.
• 22:28
  So, you know, we, we could barely jog.
• 22:32
  It was about, you know. Because you're so full of
• 22:34
  pancakes. Because this restaurant was
• 22:36
  about 3/4 of a mile away and we thought we could just jog back.
• 22:40
  We could. So we barely could jog and then
• 22:44
  so we just walked. And then when we got to the road
• 22:47
  where the high school was on, we started jogging and the head
• 22:51
  coach, not not the distance coach, moved.
• 22:54
  Who? And Tony Magny ended up being
• 22:55
  the distance coach or the head coach, but the head coach was a
• 23:00
  Sprint coach who was also a football coach.
• 23:02
  He is literally waiting for us at the front door.
• 23:06
  He knows. We're like, you know, jogging.
• 23:08
  We're like, why is he there waiting for us?
• 23:11
  Did somebody, did you see someone you knew at the
• 23:14
  restaurant called them? And so we get there, he's
• 23:18
  waiting. He says, everybody in my office.
• 23:21
  And he had this big old football office.
• 23:24
  It was like a classroom and they put all the football coaches in
• 23:27
  there. And but that was also, you know,
• 23:30
  he's a track coach too. So we we get in there and mind
• 23:34
  you, it's not Tony Magni who was the assistant coach at at the
• 23:37
  time of coach distance across country.
• 23:40
  So he's waiting for us and we get in his office and then he
• 23:44
  says, wait for me. And we're sitting there in his
• 23:47
  office about, you know, 15 of us.
• 23:51
  And we're like, we're, we're getting kicked off this.
• 23:54
  Yeah, you're busted. Yeah, you're done.
• 23:56
  We're we are literally going to get kicked off this team and he
• 23:59
  walks in and he says, guys, I am sick and tired of you guys not
• 24:05
  stretching out with the rest of the team.
• 24:08
  You guys got to start stretching out with the rest of the team.
• 24:11
  Yes, Sir. Yes, Sir.
• 24:14
  We're so sorry, Sir. We will start doing that.
• 24:16
  You are. Correct, Sir.
• 24:20
  And we were walking out like who?
• 24:22
  Like. We can go.
• 24:23
  Now, right, We literally thought somebody busted us and we were
• 24:28
  going to get kicked off that team.
• 24:31
  I see you guys being so nervous, like God we are.
• 24:33
  Screwed. We waited like 20 minutes.
• 24:37
  Torture. He's talking with other coaches
• 24:39
  and we're just sitting there waiting for him to come in and
• 24:43
  scold us or kick us off or whatever.
• 24:47
  Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that.
• 24:51
  I love that he probably doesn't know, and maybe he does today
• 24:54
  that he. Doesn't know how.
• 24:55
  Close. He was, yeah.
• 24:57
  This is coach. I'm fessed up to him.
• 25:00
  It might have been a few years later.
• 25:02
  Right. OK, Love that.
• 25:05
  That's awesome. Kevin, you go through a couple
• 25:07
  years now, you're a track kid. Where is at all?
• 25:13
  And it can be 0 and that's quite common.
• 25:15
  Where is coaching because you're starting to look at college and
• 25:18
  career and all that kind of good stuff.
• 25:19
  Where is coaching at all in your?
• 25:22
  Yeah, right. Not Even so as a high school
• 25:26
  senior, maybe you start looking at colleges.
• 25:28
  Tell us about what were you looking at?
• 25:30
  Did you try to run in college? And.
• 25:33
  What were you thinking of becoming as an 18?
• 25:35
  Year old I got another great story about that.
• 25:37
  Good. I was an average to above
• 25:40
  average high school runner. I was not getting letters.
• 25:43
  I think I got 2 letters from some Division Three schools I
• 25:48
  literally never heard of. And then I think they just send
• 25:52
  letters to everybody on every high school roster in the
• 25:55
  country. But I wasn't interested in those
• 25:59
  schools. And a former older teammate of
• 26:03
  mine in high school told me he ran at Michigan State.
• 26:08
  And he told me that, you know, this was before they really
• 26:12
  enforced Title 9. And, you know, a lot of these
• 26:14
  big colleges had large cross country teams, you know, 40-50
• 26:19
  guys or so, which doesn't really happen nowadays, right?
• 26:23
  And he says, oh, we don't cut anybody.
• 26:25
  We, we keep everybody. So I was very interested in
• 26:29
  going to Michigan State for school, and I thought I could
• 26:33
  walk on the team because my older high school teammates said
• 26:37
  they take everybody, though I am literally writing letters.
• 26:42
  This was before the computer age.
• 26:43
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is 1980.
• 26:46
  I'm writing letters to this coach.
• 26:48
  And there was answering machines.
• 26:52
  They didn't call it voicemail. They were literally answering
• 26:54
  machines. And I leave messages with him.
• 26:58
  He never called me back. Now mind you, my times were not
• 27:02
  fast. Sure.
• 27:04
  And but I thought, you know this, you know, old teammate of
• 27:07
  mine in high school said, oh, we take everybody.
• 27:10
  Well, that wasn't true. And he takes who he wants to
• 27:15
  take. He takes a lot of people.
• 27:17
  So anyway, I'm planning to go to Michigan State and I fell in
• 27:21
  love with distance running, fell in love with track and field.
• 27:26
  And but I was an average high school runner.
• 27:31
  We just love the sport. And I thought I could walk on at
• 27:34
  Michigan State. So I literally July came around.
• 27:38
  I haven't heard this guy has not called me back.
• 27:41
  He has not returned a letter, nothing.
• 27:45
  So I thought, you know, maybe I should just drive up there.
• 27:47
  And Michigan State was maybe a hour and a half drive.
• 27:51
  Did you? Pause right there.
• 27:54
  I grew up a little bit after you.
• 27:55
  Not not too long, Kevin, but where I grew up in Alabama, we
• 28:00
  grew up either Alabama or Auburn fans, you're in Michigan.
• 28:02
  Did you grow up a Michigan or Michigan State fan or Well,
• 28:06
  that's. Another thing is I used to be a
• 28:10
  huge Michigan fan, OK, And then I flipped to Michigan State and
• 28:15
  I didn't get accepted to go to the University of Michigan.
• 28:21
  I did not get accepted to them. So this.
• 28:24
  Is kind of a transition time for you because you're thinking
• 28:26
  about going to Michigan State and walking on Michigan didn't
• 28:29
  even accept me. Screw you guys, I like.
• 28:30
  Both of them, yeah, That wasn't, I didn't have an allegiance
• 28:34
  toward any one of. Those yeah, that sounds.
• 28:36
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I liked them both, but
• 28:39
  I probably did like Michigan better because, you know, they
• 28:41
  had better football. And although Michigan State won
• 28:44
  a national title and basketball with Urban Johnson literally in,
• 28:50
  in 1979, the year before I graduated.
• 28:53
  And so I, I liked them as well, obviously.
• 28:57
  So, but you know, Michigan, obviously, I think they have
• 29:02
  higher academic standards. So they didn't take me and I
• 29:06
  just completely decided to go on Michigan State.
• 29:10
  They did all right. They just take me on the track
• 29:13
  and field. Let's say, but coach isn't
• 29:14
  calling you back. Yeah.
• 29:15
  I, well, I couldn't really hold that against them.
• 29:18
  I I I knew the pecking order. But did you go to school?
• 29:22
  Did you go to school there and like show it first day of
• 29:24
  practice or what? No, no, I what I did is after he
• 29:28
  told me, I, I, I drove up there and that's.
• 29:31
  Right, that's right. That's.
• 29:32
  Right. And he basically said, what are
• 29:34
  your times? And I told him and he said, no,
• 29:38
  we can't do that. And then I walked, I drove away,
• 29:42
  and I literally withdrew in July.
• 29:45
  Wow. Decided to go to, I met with the
• 29:49
  coach at the University of Detroit, Earl Clark, who
• 29:53
  unfortunately just passed away a few months ago.
• 29:56
  And you know, but anyway, I went and met him and he welcomed me
• 30:01
  with open arms on the team. Now University of Detroit, it's
• 30:05
  Division One, but it's Division One because of basketball, at
• 30:08
  least at the time, right? And now they're much more, much
• 30:12
  better program. But at the time he you welcomed
• 30:16
  me with open arms, but you decided to go there.
• 30:19
  But you, this is interesting. But you're committed to running
• 30:22
  college though. I mean you.
• 30:23
  Would I wanted to rock? You would drew from as soon as
• 30:26
  Michigan State said no, you're like, well, I'm not gonna go to
• 30:28
  school here, then I'm gonna find another place.
• 30:30
  Yep. Wow.
• 30:31
  So you are all in on track and field across.
• 30:33
  Or I love the sport. I I absolutely loved it.
• 30:36
  I wasn't the best runner, obviously, but I love being a
• 30:40
  part of a team. Yeah, and I, I enjoyed distance
• 30:43
  running. I enjoyed the meets, the
• 30:46
  practices, the team camaraderie, right.
• 30:48
  So he let welcome me on the team.
• 30:50
  Now the team was not at a high level, but that didn't matter to
• 30:54
  me, right? I just wanted to be a part of a,
• 30:56
  a program. So I went there and ran there
• 31:01
  for four years. What?
• 31:03
  What did you when you started your freshman year?
• 31:05
  What were you thinking you were going to become?
• 31:06
  Because coaching is not a good. Well, here's another story.
• 31:11
  My dad was he was a line worker at Ford Motor Company, very
• 31:17
  middle class family in the UAW. And so he told me that all the
• 31:27
  engineers at the auto companies make all the money to be an
• 31:32
  engineer. And I'm a first generation
• 31:34
  college. So I decided I would go in
• 31:38
  mechanical engineering at the Detroit.
• 31:43
  My very first class was a mechanical engineering class.
• 31:48
  And Mike, it might as well have been Chinese.
• 31:54
  I had, I walked out of that class, I had no idea what people
• 31:59
  were talking about. And so I called up my dad.
• 32:03
  I said, dad, I, I got to change. I, I can't do this.
• 32:07
  And then some guys on the team said, well, you should go, you
• 32:11
  know, business, you know, accounting, economics, whatever.
• 32:15
  So I went into the Business School.
• 32:18
  I I made that change the second day of class.
• 32:21
  No way I. Changed majors.
• 32:24
  Literally the first day of that any.
• 32:27
  Class you were like, I was lost. I was lost.
• 32:31
  Hey, it's better than one day one and not day 1000, brother.
• 32:34
  That's right, right. So anyway, I decided to go in
• 32:39
  business administration with a, a marketing background.
• 32:44
  So anyway, I run for, you know, 3 1/2 years, whatnot.
• 32:49
  Well, I ran all four years, but I started thinking about jobs my
• 32:53
  senior year and, but I wasn't in a big hurry to get a job like
• 33:01
  some of my classmates were because I, to be honest, Mike,
• 33:05
  I, I didn't really like my classes.
• 33:11
  I was running in track and cross country was what I was thinking
• 33:16
  about all the time. That's what you liked?
• 33:18
  Yeah. So anyway, I'm interviewing for
• 33:21
  all these jobs, you know, marketing jobs, sales jobs,
• 33:25
  things like that. And I just wasn't excited about
• 33:29
  it, any of them. And they were, you know, they
• 33:31
  pay in full benefits, hospitalization.
• 33:35
  And then that's what you know, my dad said that was important.
• 33:38
  You know, right? Right.
• 33:40
  But I wasn't excited about. I'm like, well, what am I going
• 33:43
  to do on Saturdays? You know, what am I going to do?
• 33:46
  So anyway, that my senior year, the University of Detroit, which
• 33:51
  is now called Detroit Mercy by the way, they merged with
• 33:54
  another school a few years after I graduated.
• 33:58
  So they decided, you know, to add a woman's cross country
• 34:04
  program that would start the year after my senior year.
• 34:10
  And my head coach, Coach Earl Clark, the one who passed away
• 34:15
  recently, he brought me in the office and he was APE instructor
• 34:21
  at the university along with being head track and cross
• 34:26
  country coach. And ironically he was the tennis
• 34:28
  coach as well. And all the coaching jobs were
• 34:32
  part time and he was a full time PE instructor.
• 34:35
  So he brings me in and says I really don't want to coach
• 34:39
  women's cross country. And do you want the job and?
• 34:47
  Dude. Well, here's the deal.
• 34:49
  It paid $1000. Yeah, yeah, the.
• 34:52
  Stipend. I was more excited about that
• 34:55
  $1000 stipend with no benefits than I was about all these
• 35:01
  marketing jobs I was applying for that had full benefits, full
• 35:06
  hospitalization, everything. I'm more excited about this
• 35:09
  $1000 stipend and coaching, starting a woman's cross country
• 35:13
  program. And I said yes.
• 35:16
  Why do you think he asked you? I believe I was the most loyal
• 35:20
  guy on his team. We weren't the best program and
• 35:26
  and he was the nicest guy ever. And I think a lot of our my
• 35:30
  teammates took advantage of that and, and I probably did too, but
• 35:36
  I was loyal. And he asked me to be the first
• 35:43
  woman's cross country coach as literally my senior year, I'm
• 35:49
  recruiting woman. And then I ended up bringing in
• 35:56
  five or six women. And then we had a couple females
• 36:00
  that walked on the team that ran in high school.
• 36:02
  So we had like 8 or 9 women on this, my first team.
• 36:06
  I'm curious, you know, as parents, we always want our kids
• 36:09
  to do and be better. Dad being, you know, I can only
• 36:13
  imagine line work. And it go good.
• 36:15
  I know where you're getting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:18
  Dad, they were mad. I'll say, I'll say dad smartly
• 36:21
  was like, hey, the engineers make the money, go that route.
• 36:23
  And that didn't work out. Now you're going to tell dad,
• 36:26
  Hey Dad. So I'm getting a business
• 36:27
  degree, marketing degree. But.
• 36:31
  I'm going to go for just 1000. I'm going to actually help start
• 36:35
  and run this women's cross country program.
• 36:38
  How did? How did Dad?
• 36:39
  Take. That was not good.
• 36:41
  No, no, they're like you're coaching for $1000 with a
• 36:46
  degree. What's going on?
• 36:49
  And in the meantime, I had to make ends meet.
• 36:53
  So I was doing part time work telemarketing.
• 36:57
  Oh, brother. Because I wanted to have
• 36:59
  practice and you know, at like the 4:00 range, you know, I
• 37:04
  couldn't have a full time job and start practice at 5:30, you
• 37:07
  know, colleges. So I'm doing these telemarketing
• 37:11
  jobs. Then I got my first break, oh,
• 37:15
  about three years into coaching. I was doing odd jobs for.
• 37:21
  I was going to, well, first of all, I was just going to coach
• 37:23
  for a year. That's what I was going to do.
• 37:25
  I owed it to my my coach. So he gave me the opportunity
• 37:30
  and he even gave me a little bit of scholarship money just cuz he
• 37:34
  had it leftover and he gave it to me to help me through.
• 37:38
  So I felt I owed it to my coach, Earl Clark, to coach the woman.
• 37:44
  And when he allowed me to do that, I said well I'll do it for
• 37:51
  one year, but then I got to get a real job.
• 37:55
  That's the exact words I do. I'll do it for one year.
• 37:59
  Then I got to get a real job. Well, I did it for that year and
• 38:03
  I had part time jobs, telemarketing.
• 38:06
  But then I liked it and I got to know the woman on the team.
• 38:13
  We became close and you know, we finished second in the league my
• 38:17
  first year, the old Horizon League or not, it was called the
• 38:21
  Midwestern Collegiate Conference that eventually changed to the
• 38:25
  Horizon League, but I thought well, geez, we might be able to
• 38:29
  win it next year. So the mega Long story short,
• 38:33
  Mike a year became. 2. 3 Then I'm like, you know, Then we
• 38:39
  added woman's track and field my third year and they gave me, you
• 38:46
  know, in the meantime they gave me some raises.
• 38:49
  Not I wouldn't call them raises, but so I got up to about $3500.
• 38:55
  Nice, Dad's happy now. Well, no, he still wasn't
• 39:01
  because I had other part time jobs.
• 39:04
  I got my first break. I, I started to get a name for
• 39:09
  myself with the team because we did win a couple championships
• 39:13
  in 86 and 87 and but then then I got an offer to be a financial
• 39:22
  aid consultant there, a full time job.
• 39:26
  At the university. At the university and they let
• 39:29
  me do flex time, so everybody else had to be in at 8:30.
• 39:34
  I came in at 7:00 so I could leave at 4 right with 1/2 hour
• 39:39
  lunch or something like that. So I did that for a few more
• 39:43
  years, but then did. You like?
• 39:45
  That that wore me down because our team started growing.
• 39:48
  We started adding more people, sprinters, hurdlers, jumpers,
• 39:53
  throwers. My stipend became a little bit
• 39:56
  more. And you know, between the full
• 39:58
  time job status and the part time with the coaching, you
• 40:02
  know, I was pretty busy and then about year, well, maybe.
• 40:10
  I was there, what, nine years? About year six or seven, I took
• 40:16
  our women's team to those indoor meet at Michigan State.
• 40:20
  And Mike. I thought all coaches had other
• 40:23
  jobs. I really did.
• 40:25
  I thought they were teachers at the university.
• 40:28
  I thought they had other job. I I did not know was a full time
• 40:33
  position. I knew it was with basketball
• 40:35
  and football, but for track and cross country I assumed
• 40:40
  everybody had another job because my coach had another
• 40:43
  job. He was a PE instructor.
• 40:45
  So anyway, Jim Stenzi gets the job at Michigan State.
• 40:50
  Been 1986 or 87 around there. And I take my team to this
• 40:55
  indoor meet at Michigan State at the old.
• 40:58
  They, the fact was, went around Jennison Fieldhouse or
• 41:01
  basketball court. So I go and introduce myself to
• 41:05
  Jim and I said congratulations. And I envy Jim because he was a
• 41:11
  great runner at Wisconsin during my time.
• 41:14
  Oh, nice. Yeah, Great, great runner.
• 41:15
  You. You.
• 41:16
  Know Jim? Yeah, yeah.
• 41:17
  So anyway, I said. So Jim, congratulations on this
• 41:21
  new job. What else you do?
• 41:26
  Yeah, he said. What are?
• 41:28
  You talking about isn't. This enough?
• 41:31
  I said what? Do you mean?
• 41:33
  He said. Isn't this enough?
• 41:36
  I said, Well, you have to have another job, right?
• 41:40
  Right, Kevin? Isn't this?
• 41:42
  Enough. And I went, I love this
• 41:45
  confusion between you 2 PE both they're like, what is he
• 41:47
  talking? About what is he talking about
• 41:48
  in a different world? So.
• 41:50
  I go back to my boss at University of Detroit.
• 41:54
  I said, you know what, those big schools, those, those are full
• 41:59
  time jobs. He said, yeah, Kevin.
• 42:02
  Yeah. But you know, here at University
• 42:05
  of Detroit, we just kind of forward to do that.
• 42:07
  And I thought to myself, man, they've been ripping me off for
• 42:11
  a long time here. So I'm doing financial aid on a
• 42:15
  full time basis, coaching on a part time basis.
• 42:19
  But to be honest, it was reversed.
• 42:22
  I was doing stuff that I shouldn't have been doing in the
• 42:25
  financial aid office. I was doing track and field
• 42:28
  stuff, workouts, doing recruiting, etcetera.
• 42:33
  And it was an advantage when, you know, I could get the
• 42:37
  financial aid packages done of my recruits really quick.
• 42:40
  Yeah, right. They went to the top.
• 42:42
  Of the heap, right? Yeah.
• 42:43
  Oh yeah, yeah. So.
• 42:45
  But anyway, I decided that, you know, I want to make coaching my
• 42:50
  career, not my hobby. Yeah.
• 42:53
  So yeah, I started applying for full time jobs and in 1990 it
• 43:01
  would have been the I guess the fall of 93 I got a job as an
• 43:08
  assistant full time coach at Central Michigan with the
• 43:11
  women's program under kilo Yelp. OK, pause there.
• 43:16
  Let's let's. Break down a few things. 1 is
• 43:19
  when you started adding at Detroit, you said you started
• 43:23
  adding other events with track and field.
• 43:24
  So jumps and throws and stuff like that I imagine, I assume.
• 43:29
  But again, we know what assume he does.
• 43:31
  They did not hire a throws coach at jumps coach etcetera.
• 43:33
  Were you coaching all those other events as well?
• 43:37
  Yes. I was, I did, I was the throws
• 43:41
  coach. I, I did coach sprinters.
• 43:43
  I, I coached it all. But then there's another and
• 43:48
  Earl Clark was, you know, helping me too.
• 43:50
  We we kind of consolidated the men's and women's program.
• 43:56
  It wasn't official. We unofficially consolidated the
• 44:00
  men's, a woman's program. And another young man's came
• 44:05
  into the coaching world named Guy Murray, who's been at the
• 44:09
  University of Detroit Mercy for a long, long time.
• 44:13
  He's the head coach there. But Guy, he stayed on as a When
• 44:19
  he graduated, he decided to go to grad school at Wayne State
• 44:26
  for sports management, which is also in Detroit.
• 44:29
  But then he helped us out. We gave him a stipend to be an
• 44:34
  assistant coach for both the men's and women's track and
• 44:36
  field across country. So what I did is I gave him all
• 44:42
  our female distance runners for the track seasons and then I
• 44:49
  took over. Yeah.
• 44:51
  And they, they gave me some, some assistant coaches with
• 44:54
  stipends, you know, 1000 bucks, that type of thing.
• 44:57
  So I was able to hire a Sprint coach.
• 45:00
  Then I coach the throwers and I still coach the distance runners
• 45:06
  to, you know, we we figured out with three or four coaches for
• 45:11
  both the men's and women's program.
• 45:13
  How did you back then, you know today?
• 45:15
  If a distance coach finds themselves and they have to
• 45:18
  coach throwers, there's some I can go right on now to YouTube.
• 45:22
  I can find some tutorials. I could probably find a paid
• 45:24
  class somewhere within a couple of months or I maybe.
• 45:28
  Hopefully my network. Is big enough that I can call a
• 45:30
  coach that I trust and say, hey, help me break this down what did
• 45:33
  you do how did you do how did you figure out two things
• 45:36
  clinics we went to a. Lot of clinics and that was when
• 45:41
  level 1 and 2 started becoming popular.
• 45:45
  So we did that. But I also would just, you know,
• 45:49
  call friends of mine and say, can you come on over and give me
• 45:55
  a throwing lesson? You know?
• 45:57
  And then I bought books and I joked that in this part of this
• 46:01
  is true. I just, I had to.
• 46:04
  I have this great coaching book on throws that I still literally
• 46:09
  have and I just stayed a chapter of ahead of the chapter ahead of
• 46:14
  the students that my team is all I did right, right, right and
• 46:18
  they. Felt appreciated I.
• 46:20
  Felt so it it worked out you know as good as it can be at the
• 46:25
  top I love that I. Love this.
• 46:29
  Image I have of you and Stanzi over there at Jenison and you're
• 46:32
  like, what else? Because you know, it's a great
• 46:34
  lesson in that we only know what we know.
• 46:36
  I I remember, you know, I grew up in Alabama where in high
• 46:39
  school every sport was coached by a.
• 46:42
  Football coach, you know our. Offensive line coach was the
• 46:44
  tennis coach, our quarterbacks coach was the track that that
• 46:47
  was just like that was everywhere.
• 46:49
  That's all I knew, right? And so when I first moved to
• 46:52
  Chicago and called a local high school coach to see if he
• 46:55
  needed, you know, just, I just wanted to help out.
• 46:57
  So I got into coaching and Russ Martin, I'll never forget him
• 47:00
  from D La Salle. And, and I asked and I go, So
• 47:02
  what position do you coach in football?
• 47:04
  And it it reminds me of what I envisioned your conversation.
• 47:08
  He was just like, what? What are you?
• 47:10
  I coached track. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 47:11
  But what position in football? And he's like, they got football
• 47:15
  coaches, man. I just coached track and cross
• 47:16
  country. He was just like, wait, whoa.
• 47:18
  It blew my mind. He's like, wait a minute, You're
• 47:21
  telling me in high school there's people who just coached
• 47:24
  that one sport? You're not also coming from the
• 47:26
  football? It blew my mind.
• 47:30
  And I blew his mind. Because he was like, what are
• 47:31
  you? Talking about, dude, this is
• 47:33
  crazy. Like he, if you knew Russ
• 47:34
  Martin, you're like, there's no way he's coaching football.
• 47:36
  So just hilarious. OK, so I'm at Central Michigan
• 47:41
  now. Yeah.
• 47:41
  Central Michigan Your. Time job.
• 47:44
  Oh my. God through and through all I
• 47:47
  had. Full time.
• 47:49
  Full time benefits not the not the best salary.
• 47:54
  Sure, sure, sure. But I was making as much as I
• 47:57
  was making doing 2 jobs right at the University of Detroit Mercy.
• 48:02
  Yeah, but I was, you know, coaching track and field.
• 48:07
  Yeah, that was all time was. Central in the Mac back then,
• 48:10
  yes, Yeah, it's always been the Mac.
• 48:11
  What a great. Conference I coached.
• 48:13
  The Ball State, I love that conference.
• 48:14
  It was one of my favorite conferences.
• 48:16
  Now all the dropping of. Men's programs.
• 48:19
  Oh man. Yeah.
• 48:20
  Watered down. But there was a point.
• 48:22
  Where a lot of Olympians came from.
• 48:25
  Oh yeah, Eastern. Michigan, OH of.
• 48:28
  Course that powerhouse. Program.
• 48:30
  That could compete at the national level, right and
• 48:34
  Central was at the time that you know there's been times where
• 48:37
  they've been at the national level very solid.
• 48:40
  Yep, not during my two years. We were struggling a little bit
• 48:45
  on both sides. Now I was just with the woman's
• 48:47
  program and actually I was the I start off as the throws coach
• 48:56
  and then they hired up. I wouldn't say.
• 49:01
  And once again I had a book, I'm standing, you know, chapters
• 49:05
  ahead of the the students. But then we needed a jump
• 49:09
  sprints coat, actually a Sprint hurdle coach and I went to Keila
• 49:13
  Young. I said, you know, I I'd be more
• 49:15
  comfortable doing that and maybe you should hire a throws coach.
• 49:20
  And she went with it. And so my first year I was a
• 49:24
  throws coach. My second year I was Sprint
• 49:26
  hurdle and they hired a another throws coach.
• 49:30
  We can. Be still today in 2026 very I
• 49:36
  must say myopic in our coaching meaning I'm going to I am a our
• 49:40
  identity becomes into I am a sprints hurdles coach, I am a
• 49:43
  throws coach, I am a distance coach, etcetera.
• 49:46
  You have jumped around not only freely, but like, like
• 49:51
  enthusiastically, like for you to go to the coach and like,
• 49:54
  hey, you know what I'd probably be.
• 49:56
  More comfortable with Spencer. Instead of saying like, hey, you
• 49:59
  know what, I really want to get back to distance.
• 50:00
  What what what was how was that mentality built for you That OK,
• 50:04
  I can coach. I just wanted to get a full time
• 50:06
  coach you. Know I didn't care what I
• 50:07
  coached and so Kilo was the distance coach and she was the
• 50:13
  head woman's track and field and cross country coach and it's her
• 50:17
  program. So you know, I would help her
• 50:20
  out in other ways and, and I knew that I really wasn't going
• 50:26
  to stay there that long, but so I, but I, I felt that I will say
• 50:32
  I felt a little out of my element coaching throwers.
• 50:36
  I did the best I could. I think even the throwers on the
• 50:40
  team at Central recognize some of my deficiencies, but I gave
• 50:45
  them everything I had, and I think they know that.
• 50:49
  Actually, one of our top throwers here at Bucknell, her
• 50:55
  name is Maddie Fowler. Her mother was a thrower for me
• 51:00
  at Central Michigan. No way.
• 51:02
  Oh, my God. Yeah.
• 51:04
  And Kevin, you're old. But that's that's just the
• 51:06
  definition. Of old brother.
• 51:07
  I love that. Yeah, we, we, we joke about it,
• 51:09
  I said. That's so cool.
• 51:11
  Yeah. I did the best I could with you,
• 51:13
  but I really wasn't a thrills coach that particular year.
• 51:17
  I was. But I gave you everything I had.
• 51:21
  That's awesome. That's what we should expect,
• 51:22
  yeah. And we're and she recognizes
• 51:24
  that. And is dad a bit?
• 51:27
  I don't know if I'm going to say Dad's completely happy because
• 51:30
  he he wanted engineering type route, but is that a little
• 51:32
  happier that he started coaching full time He.
• 51:35
  He he did accept that. Nice.
• 51:37
  My career, yeah, especially. When I.
• 51:41
  Got the Bucknell job. OK.
• 51:43
  Is that after Central Michigan? No, no, I, I went.
• 51:47
  From to Saint Francis, where I was the first full time coach
• 51:53
  there. But what happened at Central?
• 51:57
  I was there for two years, but I like being a head coach more
• 52:03
  than and I was a head coach at Detroit Mercy and I like being.
• 52:07
  A head coach. A little more than being an
• 52:09
  assistant. So I decided to look around and
• 52:15
  Saint Francis called me. This was in, I guess it would
• 52:20
  been 1995. They called me and they had
• 52:28
  decided that they were going to make their position full time.
• 52:32
  They also had part time coaches. For years.
• 52:35
  Saint Francis is a very small Catholic school in central PA
• 52:41
  and obviously is everything's based around basketball but they
• 52:47
  all their other programs were part time coaches.
• 52:50
  I think the head football coach was full time, but even his
• 52:53
  assistants may have been part time.
• 52:55
  And the basketball cup staff was all full time, but all the other
• 52:59
  coaches were part time. And then they decided that Frank
• 53:04
  Bergaluzzi was their AD. He was the old football coach
• 53:07
  and he stepped down to become the AD.
• 53:09
  And I'll tell you what, he did a great job of creating full time
• 53:15
  positions there in sports like track and field and soccer and
• 53:21
  basically the Olympic sports that weren't football and
• 53:25
  basketball. He made those full time jobs.
• 53:30
  How they? Were entry level type jobs.
• 53:33
  They were not high paid, but they were benefited, you know,
• 53:37
  with medical and hospitalization and retirement plans and stuff
• 53:43
  like that, but they are low paid.
• 53:45
  So so I got this opportunity at Saint Francis.
• 53:49
  Now that meant moving out of the state of Michigan.
• 53:52
  I went to state of Michigan, went to School Lodeston,
• 53:55
  Michigan, and then I got this offer at Saint Francis.
• 53:59
  And how far is that? It was.
• 54:01
  About a six well. My hometown of Detroit, it was a
• 54:06
  6 1/2 hour trip where I was presently living at Central
• 54:11
  Michigan, about 8-8. Yeah, that's a that's a hall.
• 54:16
  That's a distance. How?
• 54:17
  How did you? Yeah, but it was across the
• 54:19
  country. I could fly, I could drive
• 54:20
  there, right? Right.
• 54:21
  So I go interview and basically it was starting from scratch
• 54:28
  because they always had part time coaches.
• 54:31
  The teams were small, they weren't very good at all.
• 54:37
  And so I was the first full time coach and they found a desk for
• 54:43
  me. They found some old press box
• 54:46
  was my office, but it was my program.
• 54:51
  I was in charge. I was full time, I was single
• 54:54
  and I to be honest, I was in heaven.
• 54:57
  I could start from scratch. Nothing I could do would be
• 55:01
  wrong. So I was actually.
• 55:04
  Educating. The admissions office they were.
• 55:07
  They needed students there and I think they gave me, you know,
• 55:11
  two or three scholarships per program and I brought in a
• 55:17
  fairly large group with that. You know, they were stacking it
• 55:21
  on to other financial aid and my first recruiting class was
• 55:25
  probably about 20 kids and with. You know, split.
• 55:31
  Among two men's and two women's scholarships.
• 55:34
  And then the vice president called me in and said, you got
• 55:39
  20 kids with basically 4 scholarships.
• 55:43
  If we give you 4 more, can you get another 20?
• 55:47
  And I said absolutely, yeah. So, you know, we just slowly
• 55:53
  built that program. And my first year, we weren't
• 55:57
  very good at all. But the kids appreciated the
• 56:01
  fact that there is a full time coach.
• 56:03
  And I'm still very close to some of those people, some of those
• 56:07
  athletes. And we improved and we really
• 56:11
  improved my second year. I think we, our men went from,
• 56:15
  you know, like 10th in the league to 3rd in the league and
• 56:19
  cross country. And the woman, you know, went
• 56:24
  from 9th to about third or whatever second.
• 56:27
  So then we started winning some championships around my third
• 56:31
  and fourth year and then my men's team got nationally ranked
• 56:37
  my last year there and cross country and we won the NEC and
• 56:41
  track with a very full dimensional team.
• 56:44
  And I was the only full time coach, but they were giving me
• 56:48
  graduate assistance is what they were giving me.
• 56:51
  And basically they let allow them to enroll in school, gave
• 56:56
  them a stipend and they paid for their schooling and they gave
• 56:59
  them a stipend and they were all I had.
• 57:01
  All graduate assistants and part time assistant coaches did that
• 57:05
  and I raided the local high schools for assistant coaches.
• 57:10
  You know that hey, I will give you $3000, the coach, the
• 57:14
  sprinters, you know, instead of it being the head coach at high
• 57:18
  school, you can help me out and you don't have the worry about
• 57:22
  being a head coach and making sure everybody has a ride home
• 57:25
  afterwards. You can coach the kids and get
• 57:27
  out of here. So that was my assistant
• 57:29
  coaches. How was the administration's?
• 57:32
  Attitude. We we tend to think that schools
• 57:35
  are either were championship focused or were enrollment
• 57:40
  focused. And you can, I think you can be,
• 57:43
  but I don't know, it seemed like they were enrollment focused at
• 57:46
  the start. Based on your description, you
• 57:49
  started winning. Did they care about the winning
• 57:52
  or was like that's great Kevin, make sure the roster they would
• 57:55
  take our team out for? You know, they'd have a dinner
• 57:58
  for our team. OK, good.
• 58:00
  It would start giving out. Bonuses to.
• 58:02
  Coaches who? Awesome friendships and it was
• 58:08
  great they they they recognize. That track.
• 58:11
  And field could also help with enrollment when you know they
• 58:16
  would they a school that wanted 1200 that only had 1000
• 58:20
  students. Boy, I could get 80 of them on
• 58:23
  the track and field team, you know, with four or five
• 58:27
  scholarships with each gender, right?
• 58:29
  And so they recognize that. But they also saw that we are
• 58:34
  starting moving up the pecking order good in the Northeast
• 58:37
  Conference each year to the point where my last couple years
• 58:42
  we are contending for championships.
• 58:44
  But I also had a nationally ranked men's cross country team,
• 58:48
  right? And.
• 58:50
  Anyway. That is where I when I went to
• 58:54
  Saint Francis, that is where I started to learn about Bucknell.
• 58:58
  OK, when I was at Saint. Francis because the.
• 59:01
  Schools are only two hours apart, OK, And when I moved from
• 59:06
  Michigan to the middle part of Pennsylvania, I had to build a
• 59:11
  schedule. And the first thing I built was,
• 59:15
  well, I mean, keep in mind a small private school didn't
• 59:19
  really have a big budget, right? Well, I had to find a place that
• 59:23
  was within driving distance where I didn't have to go to
• 59:26
  hotels and I could take the kids to four meets.
• 59:31
  And I found this school called Bucknell.
• 59:33
  And I had heard, I had known about Bucknell because they, you
• 59:36
  know, they had great teams cross country for years with Art
• 59:40
  Golden and they were a fixture at the National.
• 59:44
  Championship. So anyway, I found I recognize a
• 59:48
  Bucknell's only two hours away and they got an indoor track and
• 59:53
  I looked them up and I realized, man, they host a lot of meats.
• 59:56
  And so I started taking my kids from Saint Francis to the
• 1:00:00
  Bucknell meats because only two hours away didn't need a hotel,
• 1:00:04
  just an Outback. And so I went these meats up
• 1:00:09
  Bucknell, I met Art Golden and. You know, they had Bucknell had
• 1:00:14
  a huge team, just enormous team, very full dimensional, sprints,
• 1:00:20
  hurdles, jumps, throws, mid distance, long distance.
• 1:00:24
  But I recognize that they had a lot of spirit and I realized
• 1:00:30
  this art golden guy really creates a culture.
• 1:00:36
  And so I go to these Bucknell meets, and the Bucknell kids
• 1:00:40
  were just so enthusiastic. I thought to myself, that's the
• 1:00:45
  type of program I want to build at Saint Francis.
• 1:00:49
  Interesting though I. Started increasing.
• 1:00:52
  The size of our team to the point now we were never at
• 1:00:56
  Bucknell's level. But you know, I think when I
• 1:00:59
  left there I had about 35 to 40 men, 35 to 40 women program.
• 1:01:05
  When I got there in 1995, I think I had, you know, between
• 1:01:11
  track and field and cross country, I think I had 13 guys
• 1:01:14
  and 20 women all together. So we built this program up.
• 1:01:19
  We started winning. And so anyway, I started to use
• 1:01:24
  Bucknell as a model about my third or fourth year at
• 1:01:28
  Bucknell. But then my 4th and 5th year I
• 1:01:32
  started using Bucknell as a target.
• 1:01:35
  Think we can beat these guys, you know, and if we could beat
• 1:01:39
  Bucknell in a track beat or a cross country meet, we should be
• 1:01:44
  able to win the Northeast Conference.
• 1:01:46
  Now, Bucknell was always in the Pedro League, but my last couple
• 1:01:50
  years we started to beat Bucknell in cross country on the
• 1:01:54
  men's side. Our woman couldn't touch them.
• 1:01:58
  But now I had some national caliber woman at the time.
• 1:02:01
  Then even in track and field, my my men's team beat Bucknell that
• 1:02:06
  have scored meet once again. My women's team was not beating
• 1:02:11
  Buck now, but we are closing in. But Buck now had a, a powerhouse
• 1:02:16
  women's team back in, you know, like 19992000 that range.
• 1:02:22
  So anyway, I'm at Saint Francis for six years and we got pretty
• 1:02:27
  darn good where we're winning Northeast Conference
• 1:02:30
  championships. If we're not winning, we're
• 1:02:34
  second or third, you know, and, and I've gotten a couple raises,
• 1:02:39
  but just minimal raises enough and couple bonuses.
• 1:02:45
  But I realized, you know what, I, I'm not so sure how much more
• 1:02:51
  I can do at Saint Francis. And the thing that at the time I
• 1:02:56
  didn't have a outdoor track and I didn't have an outdoor track
• 1:02:58
  facility, but we are using local high schools and indoors, you
• 1:03:05
  know, we had a little jogging track, but it wasn't a true
• 1:03:10
  indoor track. So I was getting, I was getting
• 1:03:13
  a little tired of that. And I decided, you know, I'm not
• 1:03:17
  sure I can get this program any better.
• 1:03:20
  Yeah, we're good. Pause there, I'm.
• 1:03:23
  Interested so? We've talked a lot about your
• 1:03:26
  career up until this part of a lot of learning.
• 1:03:31
  You're coaching throws, you go to learn, you get a book, you're
• 1:03:33
  doing that. You coach Sprint, you calling up
• 1:03:35
  people. I love all that.
• 1:03:38
  I was going to ask about your development as a head coach and
• 1:03:41
  you kind of touched on it as like I got put together a
• 1:03:43
  schedule because a lot of people think they want to be a head
• 1:03:46
  coach, but they don't realize what it all entails.
• 1:03:48
  It actually probably entails less coaching than you actually
• 1:03:51
  think. It involves scheduling,
• 1:03:53
  budgeting, equipment, all this other thing.
• 1:03:55
  So I love that. But what I'm curious about
• 1:03:57
  something was real interesting there is when you said you kind
• 1:04:00
  of discovered Golding and Bucknell and you mentioned the
• 1:04:04
  word culture and that you got attracted to that.
• 1:04:07
  You're like, wait a minute, they're doing things a little
• 1:04:09
  differently. They're a little bit more
• 1:04:10
  enthusiastic. Did you up to this point?
• 1:04:13
  So in Saint Francis, how did you, I'm going to say manifest
• 1:04:18
  that, but how did you, what did you do differently as a coach?
• 1:04:21
  Once you started learning? It's not like you had zero
• 1:04:24
  knowledge of what culture and team attitude and things like
• 1:04:27
  that is. But now this seemed to be like
• 1:04:29
  an example of like, oh, wait a minute, OK, they're doing
• 1:04:32
  something different here. How did that manifest for you as
• 1:04:34
  a as a coach? The last half there at Saint
• 1:04:37
  Francis. At Saint Francis.
• 1:04:40
  We developed an outstanding culture and the culture we
• 1:04:44
  developed there was we are a blue collar bunch of misfits and
• 1:04:53
  we don't. Need the.
• 1:04:54
  Fancy uniforms, we don't need the big time budget, we don't
• 1:04:59
  need the indoor track. We'll just do hill work and in
• 1:05:02
  the winter months. And that was the culture that we
• 1:05:05
  developed there and it worked and our teams got very, very
• 1:05:10
  good. We are we are winning or
• 1:05:12
  contending for Northeast Conference championships.
• 1:05:16
  I had an all American named Brian Sell who ended up making
• 1:05:21
  an Olympic team a few years later.
• 1:05:23
  He ran in Beijing. He ran for Hanson's and
• 1:05:27
  ironically in Michigan. And ironically, I knew Kevin
• 1:05:31
  Hanson from my Detroit days and his wife is Nancy Manzier
• 1:05:37
  Manziero who ran for me at University of Detroit,
• 1:05:40
  ironically. So I I knew the Hanson's very
• 1:05:42
  well. And Brian's senior year was my
• 1:05:45
  last year there and he was all American and I always felt he
• 1:05:50
  could be a great marathoner. So I hooked him up with Hanson's
• 1:05:55
  and Hanson's loved him and we end up making Olympic teams in
• 1:05:58
  Beijing. So he was our first big time
• 1:06:02
  protege there. But so we developed a different
• 1:06:06
  type of culture at Saint Francis of we're just some blue collar
• 1:06:12
  misfits and we're going to beat the hell out of you.
• 1:06:14
  Nice. So anyway, I get the Bucknell
• 1:06:17
  job and Bucknell and you see that the runway not.
• 1:06:22
  Much more runway to go in Saint Francis, right?
• 1:06:25
  Start looking elsewhere. How does Bucknell even become
• 1:06:27
  available for you? Our golden passed away.
• 1:06:31
  He he had cancer that he developed in the late 90s and
• 1:06:36
  then he was actually in. Remission.
• 1:06:39
  And then, and I guess it would be the spring of O 1, he passed
• 1:06:46
  away of a heart attack due to the complications from the
• 1:06:49
  cancer that he was in remission for.
• 1:06:52
  And he passed away at the IC for a ECAC championship at Princeton
• 1:06:58
  at the time. It was quite a shock.
• 1:07:01
  To the team, quite. A shock to the team.
• 1:07:04
  What a shock to the. World of Track and.
• 1:07:06
  Field because obviously he was a very well renowned coach.
• 1:07:11
  So anyway, I was at the meet and they had a moment of silence.
• 1:07:16
  He passed away to his hotel room.
• 1:07:18
  And so anyway, Joe Clem was the assistant coach and he kept, you
• 1:07:26
  know, obviously quite a shock, but they stayed and competed the
• 1:07:28
  next day. Oh, wow.
• 1:07:30
  Yeah, yeah. You know, kind of like.
• 1:07:32
  Coach Golden would have wanted this like.
• 1:07:36
  Yeah, that was the word of. The weekend.
• 1:07:39
  Yeah, art. The Art Golden died, and
• 1:07:44
  ironically, one of my assistant coaches, who was a school
• 1:07:49
  teacher near Saint Francis said, you know, you might want to look
• 1:07:54
  at that position. And I'm like, why would Bucknell
• 1:07:57
  want me? You know, they get anybody they
• 1:08:00
  want, you know, and they have alumni.
• 1:08:03
  Why would they want me? So anyway, you know, they went
• 1:08:07
  to funeral service and all that, and probably around a month
• 1:08:12
  later, they advertised for the position.
• 1:08:15
  I didn't even apply. They're knocked at all.
• 1:08:18
  They wouldn't wait, wait, wait. Kevin, your your.
• 1:08:21
  Journey up to this point has a lot of earned confidence.
• 1:08:27
  Sure. You want me to take over a
• 1:08:28
  women's program or build? I'm sorry, not even take over
• 1:08:30
  build a women's program at at Detroit.
• 1:08:33
  OK Wait. You want me to coach with Rose
• 1:08:35
  at Central Michigan? OK, I'll.
• 1:08:37
  I'll figure it out. Wait, you want me to to become
• 1:08:40
  the head coach at Saint Francis and we got to get this done and
• 1:08:42
  this this done. OK.
• 1:08:44
  And when I say earn meaning not like I don't see bravado.
• 1:08:46
  I don't see a bad ego. I see like, OK, I'll I'll get to
• 1:08:50
  work. Where is this is the first time
• 1:08:52
  I'm hearing of some doubt from you.
• 1:08:57
  Where is this going from? I had.
• 1:08:59
  Already interviewed first a couple jobs I was interviewed
• 1:09:05
  was buffered Southeast Louisiana University.
• 1:09:10
  Ironically, my AD will hired me at Saint Francis.
• 1:09:16
  Was the AD there? So he calls.
• 1:09:20
  Me. Oh, maybe.
• 1:09:21
  June after the NCAA meet, our minnow was before and says I'm
• 1:09:29
  looking for a head coach. Do you know anybody?
• 1:09:33
  And I said, well what about me? And he said.
• 1:09:37
  You're really. Interested.
• 1:09:38
  I said, yeah. And so he brings me down for an
• 1:09:41
  interview. And, and their team was kind of
• 1:09:45
  down, but they had an outdoor track.
• 1:09:48
  And, you know, you don't really need an indoor track in New
• 1:09:52
  Orleans. But they didn't have many kids
• 1:09:55
  on the team. And I'm looking at the tuition.
• 1:09:59
  I'm looking at, you know, Pell Grants and stuff like that.
• 1:10:04
  I'm like, you know, I think I can get you.
• 1:10:07
  You know, I think we can make this team 35 to 40 on each
• 1:10:11
  gender. And they looked at me like I had
• 1:10:14
  two heads. The administration, like, how
• 1:10:17
  can you do that? And I said, well, you know, you
• 1:10:21
  get kids or getting other aid, you know, you stack it on, do
• 1:10:25
  some scholarship money and you just pester them.
• 1:10:28
  Sorry, not everybody can go to LSU.
• 1:10:31
  And so make a Long story short, he offers me the job and it was
• 1:10:39
  a not quite the salary. I'm thinking, well, geez, I've
• 1:10:44
  got to relocate the New Orleans that I am not a Southern guy.
• 1:10:49
  This is a huge, huge difference in lifestyle.
• 1:10:53
  And I said to my, you know, my old boss who was the AD there,
• 1:10:59
  and I said, if you can get me six, $7000 more in salary, you
• 1:11:05
  got yourself your next head coach, right?
• 1:11:08
  He said give me. A day.
• 1:11:11
  And call me tomorrow. And anyway, I called him the
• 1:11:16
  next day and he said I decided to go in a different direction.
• 1:11:24
  And I'm like, he didn't say. I couldn't get the money, he.
• 1:11:27
  Said I decided he. He says I.
• 1:11:31
  Go in a different direction. I said well what about the old
• 1:11:34
  offer? Can I take the old offer?
• 1:11:36
  And he said Nope, I got my guy. I'm like wow that sucks because
• 1:11:43
  I'm negotiating. But he would have said no, I
• 1:11:47
  would have taken work. And.
• 1:11:50
  So I. Blew that one I guess.
• 1:11:53
  And I'm like, man, did I just blow that opportunity because I
• 1:11:58
  was greedy? I mean, all I tried to do was
• 1:12:01
  negotiate, right? Right.
• 1:12:03
  So anyway, I did a interview at Portland State at the NC double
• 1:12:10
  AI took Brian Cell to Oregon to run the 10,000 at the NCAA.
• 1:12:17
  During that time, Utah was there interviewing for a woman's
• 1:12:23
  coach. She she just the the Cincinnati
• 1:12:26
  came right to Eugene and she's interviewing coaches at
• 1:12:28
  restaurants. So I interviewed for this
• 1:12:32
  woman's position at Utah and I didn't get it.
• 1:12:36
  But then I also drove up to Portland for Portland State and
• 1:12:42
  I interviewed a Portland State. I didn't get it.
• 1:12:46
  And then Bucknell called me. I decided to just throw in a
• 1:12:51
  resume to buck now for the be honest shits and giggles.
• 1:12:56
  I didn't think they would call me.
• 1:12:58
  I mean I mean they'd get anybody they want a buck now.
• 1:13:01
  I felt why would they want me? But I just threw I didn't even
• 1:13:05
  write a cover letter. I just in a resume and then they
• 1:13:10
  called me for an interview. And then I found out during the
• 1:13:14
  interview process, which took all day long, they had all kinds
• 1:13:18
  of search committees, alumni, student athletes, assistant ADS.
• 1:13:24
  That was an all day interview. Yeah.
• 1:13:29
  I'm realizing, boy, this is an important hire.
• 1:13:31
  Yeah, yeah. Our.
• 1:13:34
  Golden told the AD when he was struggling with his health that
• 1:13:40
  if something ever happened, you should call that guy at Saint
• 1:13:43
  Francis, interview him. So now.
• 1:13:48
  Once again, they didn't call me, but when I threw in that resume,
• 1:13:52
  they call and they brought me in for a visit and that's where
• 1:13:57
  they told me that Art Golden dropped my name to them, you
• 1:14:03
  know, like 2 years earlier that if something ever happens to me,
• 1:14:07
  call the guy at Saint Francis because they're they got a
• 1:14:10
  pretty good program and they don't even have a track and
• 1:14:12
  field facility. That had to feel good.
• 1:14:14
  Yes, it did. Yes, it did so.
• 1:14:16
  I interviewed here and I ended up getting the job and so and
• 1:14:22
  I've been here since This is my 25th year.
• 1:14:25
  So how you know taking? Over any program, as you've
• 1:14:28
  seen, you know, first of all, you started a program in
• 1:14:29
  Detroit, you go to Central Michigan, you take over Saint
• 1:14:31
  Francis. Taking over any program,
• 1:14:34
  regardless of the health of the program is tough, right?
• 1:14:37
  Because you have you have certain amount of kids that are
• 1:14:39
  still there that don't know who you are.
• 1:14:42
  They came there for another person.
• 1:14:44
  You know, there's many things that go.
• 1:14:47
  On there, you know. The administration, there's just
• 1:14:49
  a ton how that's hard. Here you go taking over a
• 1:14:55
  program that's successful. So it's not like Kevin, come be
• 1:14:59
  our savior. It's like, bro, where are they?
• 1:15:01
  The coach died. He wasn't.
• 1:15:03
  You have a coach that is a. Legacy coach, he's amazing.
• 1:15:07
  He did an amazing job. So you got to replace that.
• 1:15:10
  And there is trauma and grief in the program, in the athletic
• 1:15:15
  department. That coach had passed away.
• 1:15:17
  It's not like he retired, left for another school.
• 1:15:20
  He passes away doing his passion, his profession,
• 1:15:23
  coaching track and field. Kevin, that seems fairly
• 1:15:27
  insurmountable, my friend. What were your you, I assume you
• 1:15:31
  had to have like, OK, I need to come in and establish XY and Z.
• 1:15:35
  Like, how do you how do you work on changing things?
• 1:15:38
  Because it's like, well, that's not how Coach Golden did you
• 1:15:40
  know, I mean, there's a lot of that.
• 1:15:41
  Yeah, there's a. Lot of that.
• 1:15:43
  I inherited the coaching staff, 2 full time and two-part time
• 1:15:49
  coaches I inherited and one of the coaches was applying for the
• 1:15:54
  position. Oof, Yeah.
• 1:15:55
  So it was. Anyway, it was a unique, unique
• 1:16:02
  time at Bucknell. What I had gone for me is my
• 1:16:07
  Saint Francis teams at the time had beaten Bucknell on the men's
• 1:16:13
  side. So there's a little bit of proof
• 1:16:15
  there. Yeah.
• 1:16:15
  Cross. Country at.
• 1:16:17
  You know, regionals. And.
• 1:16:19
  Things like that. So I came in with a little bit
• 1:16:23
  of credibility, right And now the woman's team were still way
• 1:16:28
  better than my woman's team. But I have found that woman
• 1:16:32
  don't really hold that against you at all.
• 1:16:37
  So the woman's team was very welcoming.
• 1:16:41
  The men's team was very welcoming.
• 1:16:44
  The alumni were very welcoming. Ironically, somebody got my some
• 1:16:51
  alarm, got my number through somebody, my cell phone number.
• 1:16:55
  When I took the job, I probably, you know, I, I took about a week
• 1:17:02
  and a half to, you know, leave Saint Francis, put everything
• 1:17:06
  together, you know, kind of a clean getaway there and, you
• 1:17:11
  know, make sure everything was good.
• 1:17:13
  About a week and 1/2 after I, I accepted the job, I was kind of
• 1:17:20
  in limbo at Saint Francis. I'm still going in, but I was
• 1:17:24
  just kind of getting things organized to make my exit.
• 1:17:28
  I probably got. About. 40 calls from alumni
• 1:17:33
  above now just welcoming me to be the head coach.
• 1:17:39
  Somebody got my. Number my cell phone and they
• 1:17:42
  started calling me and I know they're getting they're feeling
• 1:17:45
  me out is what they were doing. They were very welcoming me.
• 1:17:49
  But then they're like, you know, what are your best workouts,
• 1:17:52
  guys? You know, they're doing their
• 1:17:54
  own interview. Oh yeah.
• 1:17:55
  Yeah, yeah. And and I thought that was kind
• 1:17:59
  of cool. Yeah.
• 1:18:00
  That they care. Yeah, they do.
• 1:18:02
  Oh, the alumni are? Passionate here about that.
• 1:18:04
  It's crazy. It's crazy, but it's a great
• 1:18:07
  it's a good crazy. It's a good distinction anyway.
• 1:18:10
  There was some. Transitional.
• 1:18:12
  Things with, you know, team policy and things like that.
• 1:18:16
  I inherited Art Golden's drinking policy, which was
• 1:18:21
  nothing, no tolerance at all. And you know, we had to change
• 1:18:27
  that a bit. We have a different one now, but
• 1:18:30
  there's still a policy. The assistant coaches, you know,
• 1:18:35
  obviously I'm, I'm different from Art Goulding, you know.
• 1:18:39
  So that was a transition and, and a couple assistants after a
• 1:18:45
  year or two they left and I was able to bring some of my own
• 1:18:49
  people in that that helped. But anyway, the first two or
• 1:18:56
  three years there was, there's a little bit of drama, but then
• 1:19:01
  about year 4, year five, our men started winning track and field
• 1:19:07
  championships. And for years we couldn't beat
• 1:19:10
  Army, Navy at all, you know, And then all of a sudden we're
• 1:19:14
  inching closer. We started and we started to
• 1:19:16
  beat them. And I had, you know, the kids I
• 1:19:20
  coached my first three years. I love them.
• 1:19:23
  They were very, very good. And they were, you know, they
• 1:19:27
  accepted me. But then after about year 4 or
• 1:19:31
  five, it's like being a homeowner.
• 1:19:33
  I felt as though my year, my first 2-3 years, I was renting a
• 1:19:38
  home. That's how I felt.
• 1:19:40
  And then about year 4, year five, I felt ownership of the
• 1:19:45
  program. It took about 3 years before I
• 1:19:50
  felt ownership of the program. Everything, everything was being
• 1:19:55
  compared with our Goulding. Yeah, right.
• 1:19:58
  You know he was. You know, there's statues.
• 1:19:59
  Here he's in the Hall of Fame. And then I started.
• 1:20:04
  To. Develop my own identity about
• 1:20:06
  year 4, Year 5, and of course now I'm in the year 25 and
• 1:20:11
  everyone knows head coach. Now you gotta follow Donner.
• 1:20:15
  Right. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:20:16
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I like is we've only had
• 1:20:19
  two head. Coaches here in 56 years, is
• 1:20:22
  that right? Our school was here.
• 1:20:24
  For 31. Years.
• 1:20:26
  Wow, I'm in year 25 now. That says a lot about the school
• 1:20:29
  and the athletic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:20:31
  I think about guys like Golden and other just legendary, you
• 1:20:35
  know, I think about like the worst job in the world is going
• 1:20:38
  to be to replace Pat Henry and to replace Dennis Shaver and
• 1:20:42
  replace Mike Holloway. And Amy, you always wanted to be
• 1:20:44
  the coach. The coach who replaced the
• 1:20:48
  coach, Yeah. You know who you want to be.
• 1:20:50
  You know. Who I thought did a?
• 1:20:51
  Really excellent job, he. Just retired himself and you
• 1:20:54
  would have thought, I think a lot of people were like, there's
• 1:20:56
  no way he's gonna do a very good job.
• 1:20:59
  Is Bucky, when he had to replace John McDonald, another just
• 1:21:02
  bigger than life coach? And Buck, you come in and it's
• 1:21:06
  like, you can't, you can't even do it.
• 1:21:07
  And he did it. Yeah, it's like I'm sure, I'm
• 1:21:11
  sure for about four or five. Years.
• 1:21:12
  People second guessed them, Of course, Of course.
• 1:21:16
  And even I even think. About and Kevin, maybe you can.
• 1:21:18
  Expand this. I even think about the own, you
• 1:21:22
  know, we we've talked a lot in years past about imposter
• 1:21:25
  syndrome, your own doubt, your own self voice of like man, like
• 1:21:29
  in Bucky's case, you know, John did this and John won all these.
• 1:21:33
  And if I don't I'm I went through that.
• 1:21:35
  I went through that. That's out here.
• 1:21:36
  That's what I wondered, yeah. That did our golden.
• 1:21:40
  Get these kids in the national championships across country 9
• 1:21:44
  times out of a you know, 30 Yeah I didn't what what what what
• 1:21:50
  clicked for you of of the. Confidence of like, OK, the, the
• 1:21:54
  goal is the same championships, graduate kids, etcetera.
• 1:21:58
  But there is a my you know, what's that old song?
• 1:22:00
  My did it my way, but there is a my way.
• 1:22:02
  When did it and how did it? And it made me not when I say
• 1:22:05
  click, it may not be like a light switch where it just went
• 1:22:07
  from off to on. It could be a slider button
• 1:22:09
  here. When how did that confidence
• 1:22:11
  level come up with like, OK, this is my program.
• 1:22:12
  You talked about kind of renting the house for the first.
• 1:22:15
  I'd love that analogy. And then, oh, now it's my home.
• 1:22:17
  How did that like what are some some steps that you took?
• 1:22:21
  Whether it was the kids administration?
• 1:22:23
  Well, we were getting individuals.
• 1:22:25
  In the national championships, not teams across country, we're
• 1:22:30
  getting individuals, but we, our women's team continue to win
• 1:22:35
  Patriot League championships in all three sports.
• 1:22:38
  And we even, you know, feel those would be a Triple Crown,
• 1:22:41
  cross country, indoor and outdoor.
• 1:22:43
  And, you know, and you know, we just had good women's teams and
• 1:22:48
  the, the women's team was very accepting of me, very accepting.
• 1:22:53
  And I am a different coach than Art Golden, you know,
• 1:22:55
  personalities and we do things. And I think.
• 1:22:59
  The women were. Very accepting.
• 1:23:01
  The men were a little hesitant, but there were pockets of men
• 1:23:07
  that were totally on board. And then when we started winning
• 1:23:12
  track and field championships on the men's side around 2000,
• 1:23:17
  well, we started to close the gap with Army, Navy around O8O9.
• 1:23:21
  But in 10, when we finally beat them in track and field, the
• 1:23:27
  team, we're on board. Everybody was on board.
• 1:23:31
  I had my own staff that I hired and that was really when
• 1:23:37
  ownerships really started to establish itself.
• 1:23:41
  We were able to win some track and field titles on the men's
• 1:23:44
  side. When I got here, everyone said
• 1:23:47
  you can't beat Army and Navy. You can't beat them in track and
• 1:23:51
  field. Maybe cross country you can, but
• 1:23:53
  track and field, impossible. And we started to do it 4-5
• 1:23:57
  years later now and, and then I, although I, I hate to say this,
• 1:24:02
  but you know, Army, Navy. Made some coaching.
• 1:24:07
  Changes. I don't know if it has anything
• 1:24:09
  to do with us beating now, but then who they have now, these
• 1:24:13
  guys are, they're recruiting animals.
• 1:24:17
  They are, you know. Michael Smith.
• 1:24:18
  Is a Buckdell alum, yeah, yeah. His daughter runs for me.
• 1:24:25
  Yeah, so. He's very.
• 1:24:26
  Supportive but an Army and doing a great job.
• 1:24:30
  Great job. Of course, Jamie, Jamie Navy is
• 1:24:33
  building a. He's built a buzz.
• 1:24:35
  Saw. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:24:37
  So. And I love them.
• 1:24:38
  Being in the Patriot League because they challenge you
• 1:24:41
  right, man, They're tough to beat.
• 1:24:43
  Yeah, yeah. There's lots of good coaches out
• 1:24:45
  there, man. Say that part of it has
• 1:24:47
  something. To do with us beating them like
• 1:24:51
  in the, you know, the woman beating them for a long time,
• 1:24:54
  but then the men beating them in 2010 through 14.
• 1:24:58
  And that was about when they made the changes.
• 1:25:00
  Both programs cooks. He retired and and they brought
• 1:25:04
  in Jamie, who, you know, made it up.
• 1:25:08
  He's a director now. They used to have separate
• 1:25:10
  coaches between the plummet Navy and of course, you know,
• 1:25:15
  Michael's you know, he's doing a real good job there.
• 1:25:18
  And we're kind of back in the same boat, although my team is
• 1:25:21
  very good. Then when Boston joined the
• 1:25:25
  league, they came and fully funded with scholarships.
• 1:25:28
  We are still no scholarship. The time on the woman on the
• 1:25:30
  men's side and you know the Patriot League has turned into
• 1:25:34
  one of the top big majors in the country, I believe for track and
• 1:25:39
  field and cross country with Army, Navy, Boston, US Lehigh is
• 1:25:45
  really gotten pretty good. So you know American on the
• 1:25:50
  distance side can do some damage.
• 1:25:52
  It's it's a good league. Yeah, there's a a lot of.
• 1:25:56
  Great, a lot of. Great coaches out there and
• 1:25:58
  that's why when someone wins, to me it's like it's special, like
• 1:26:00
  you need to celebrate because it's hard to win because
• 1:26:03
  everybody's trying to do the same thing you are, buddy.
• 1:26:06
  I love that. What what is it's it's
• 1:26:08
  interesting. You know, one of the we almost
• 1:26:09
  titled this podcast and said the Guild connections podcast, the
• 1:26:13
  Guild myth Buster. So I, I like to bust myths out
• 1:26:16
  there in our profession of coaching track and field.
• 1:26:18
  And one of those myths is that everybody moves all the time.
• 1:26:21
  No one stays at a program and and they always add anymore.
• 1:26:24
  But then they'll say back in the, the the 2000s and 90's the
• 1:26:28
  same thing, blah, blah, blah. And by the way, this is a guy I
• 1:26:30
  coached for 10 years and was at 5 different institutions.
• 1:26:32
  So I was that guy. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:26:34
  What? What has kept?
• 1:26:35
  You there because I think it. Says a lot when I see a guy or
• 1:26:37
  gal that's out of program for a long time.
• 1:26:39
  First of all, I know that person has to be successful, not only
• 1:26:42
  on the track, but also navigating administrations and
• 1:26:46
  things like that. What's kept you there at
• 1:26:47
  Bucknell for 25 years? That says a lot about you.
• 1:26:50
  It says a lot about the school. Well, what's funny about that,
• 1:26:53
  Mike? Is when I got here, I thought
• 1:26:56
  this would be just a stepping stone.
• 1:27:00
  I start. When I started to have success
• 1:27:03
  in the profession, I thought to myself, you know what, I want to
• 1:27:08
  be at Notre Dame, Texas. Alabama.
• 1:27:13
  Michigan, I was, Michigan's, my home state.
• 1:27:16
  I always kind of had a target over there.
• 1:27:18
  Whenever something opened up, maybe I would go for it.
• 1:27:22
  That was my goal as a coach was to be at a blue blood type
• 1:27:28
  institution. I realized about Year 4 and five
• 1:27:33
  at Bucknell I was wrong. And I just loved the student
• 1:27:40
  athlete welfare that Bucknell provided.
• 1:27:45
  I love the alumni base that was so passionate.
• 1:27:49
  Can't beat our facilities here. The administration does take
• 1:27:54
  care of their coaches. And I realized that, you know,
• 1:27:58
  it's a nice place and a nice place to raise a family.
• 1:28:03
  I ended up marrying my wife, Amy, who was, ironically, a math
• 1:28:08
  professor at Saint Francis. What was my last year at Saint
• 1:28:12
  Francis? What?
• 1:28:13
  What kind of professor? She's a math.
• 1:28:15
  Mathematics. Math.
• 1:28:16
  Math. OK.
• 1:28:16
  Got it. Oh man, so she's.
• 1:28:18
  Smart and statistics. Oh yeah, she's.
• 1:28:19
  Very smart. Does she laugh at you about your
• 1:28:22
  mechanical? Engineering story, because I've
• 1:28:23
  seen there's a lot of math there.
• 1:28:24
  She knows about them. Yeah, Yeah.
• 1:28:26
  But anyway. We started dating literally
• 1:28:32
  during my transition between Saint Francis and Bucknell.
• 1:28:36
  Oh wow, yeah. That's the one time to meet.
• 1:28:39
  Someone for a long. Term relationship.
• 1:28:41
  Well, what's funny is. My last month at Bucknell, the
• 1:28:46
  director of athletics asked me to be on a search committee for
• 1:28:50
  a swimming coach at Saint Francis at Saint Francis.
• 1:28:53
  Got it, got it. Yeah, OK, so I'm.
• 1:28:55
  On the search. Committee.
• 1:28:57
  And we had already interviewed somebody and then between
• 1:29:01
  interviews, I got the Bucknell job and accepted it.
• 1:29:06
  So we're not done interviewing swim coaches.
• 1:29:09
  So I was on the committee, my wife Amy was on the committee
• 1:29:13
  representing academics and there was, and I was representing
• 1:29:19
  athletics. And then there's another
• 1:29:22
  assistant AD and you know, like 3 or 4 people on this committee.
• 1:29:27
  So anyway, I called the director of athletics and I said, do you,
• 1:29:31
  you know, I'm a lame duck coach? Obviously you still want me on
• 1:29:36
  this. Interview.
• 1:29:37
  Committee and he said yes, because that shows that our
• 1:29:41
  coaches can get other jobs and move on and that might be
• 1:29:45
  appealing. I said, OK, so during that week
• 1:29:48
  and a half transition between me moving from Saint Francis to
• 1:29:52
  Bucknell, I was on this interview committee for a swim
• 1:29:55
  coach in which Amy was on. And I knew, I've known of Amy
• 1:30:01
  and I knew her, you know, through the mathematics
• 1:30:05
  department. And anyway, she I get there for
• 1:30:10
  the second interview and they were interviewing 3 candidates
• 1:30:15
  on three successive days and she's the only one in the room.
• 1:30:20
  I get there, we're waiting for everyone to show up.
• 1:30:23
  She says, I heard the bad news that you're leaving us.
• 1:30:27
  Oh, bad news. And I said.
• 1:30:28
  Yeah. It's, you know, I, I.
• 1:30:31
  Yeah, they made a offer I really couldn't refuse.
• 1:30:34
  Up up now and I'll be here another week and 1/2 or so.
• 1:30:38
  And she said why don't we go celebrate and have a beer?
• 1:30:43
  So she asked me out Nice. And you are a good.
• 1:30:47
  Recruiter. Yeah.
• 1:30:49
  That's what people say. So, so anyway, we, we went out
• 1:30:54
  and we started, you know, we stayed in contact and we had a
• 1:30:58
  long distance relationship for about a year.
• 1:31:01
  And I would make my way back to her hometown.
• 1:31:05
  Her hometown was right near Saint Francis, a little town
• 1:31:09
  called Portage in which ironically I have a few kids
• 1:31:12
  from Portage on my team right now.
• 1:31:14
  So anyway, we had a long distance relationship for about
• 1:31:19
  a year and then I proposed and then she ended up getting a job
• 1:31:23
  at Bucknell as a mathematics professor and statistics, and
• 1:31:28
  she's been teaching here. And I've been.
• 1:31:31
  Coaching here and the rest is history.
• 1:31:34
  We have a young daughter who is a freshman at Susquehanna
• 1:31:37
  University, which is right down the road.
• 1:31:40
  She lives there even though it's only 20 minutes away and she's
• 1:31:45
  on the swim team. She's studying elementary
• 1:31:47
  education, and she's a swimmer, not a track.
• 1:31:49
  OK. A rat you did high school track
• 1:31:52
  for? Three years she didn't do it.
• 1:31:54
  Her senior year she was javelin thrower and she, you know, hurt
• 1:32:00
  her shoulder and swimming and decided not to go out for track
• 1:32:03
  as a senior when she get into Susquehanna for swimming and she
• 1:32:08
  just loves it there. So it's like, academically great
• 1:32:12
  friends. She's on their swim team.
• 1:32:14
  Cool. And she's close enough where she
• 1:32:15
  can get home every now and then. Yeah, yeah, actually.
• 1:32:18
  Quite a bit. And worked, worked out very
• 1:32:21
  well. So anyway, that's How I Met Amy.
• 1:32:25
  Awesome. Right at the end of my Saint
• 1:32:27
  Francis career. And now, you know, she teaches
• 1:32:31
  at Bucknell. So we both have jobs here at
• 1:32:33
  Bucknell. So anyway, yeah, it was about
• 1:32:37
  took about four or five years, you know, really feel as though
• 1:32:41
  I had ownership of of the program and ironically, I still
• 1:32:47
  hear art golden stories. Well.
• 1:32:51
  He was bigger than life. Holy cow.
• 1:32:52
  Alumni. We had a.
• 1:32:54
  We had a we. Hosted a very large meet this
• 1:32:56
  past weekend called the Bison Outdoor Classic.
• 1:32:59
  And we had, we also, you know, allowed alumni to come back and
• 1:33:03
  had a reception. So a lot of our Golden's alumni
• 1:33:06
  came back. And I really, you know, one
• 1:33:08
  thing I really loved about this place is the alumni are so
• 1:33:14
  passionate and they're always looking for excuses to come
• 1:33:17
  back. And we, we provide a lot of
• 1:33:20
  excuses because we have a lot of different home meets here.
• 1:33:23
  And so it, it's worked out really good.
• 1:33:27
  So anyway, I had these ambitions of going Power 4 and I realized
• 1:33:35
  between the alumni, the facilities, student athlete
• 1:33:41
  welfare, what Bucknell's all about, I really like that aspect
• 1:33:46
  that it's student athlete, student 1st.
• 1:33:49
  And with all I'll be honest, though, these new NCAA rules on
• 1:33:57
  capping roster spots the the portal, you know, I rarely have
• 1:34:02
  to worry about the portal. You know, our retention rate's
• 1:34:05
  so high. Kids are coming here for
• 1:34:07
  academics first and foremost and not necessary for track and
• 1:34:13
  field. And then the fact that, you
• 1:34:16
  know, the university opted out of profit sharing.
• 1:34:19
  We just decided we're not going to pay our athletes here to, you
• 1:34:25
  know, you know, collectives and people generally don't leave
• 1:34:31
  here, at least in my sport. And I think our basketball
• 1:34:34
  program has some issues. But in my sport, people aren't
• 1:34:39
  necessarily just looking for something better.
• 1:34:42
  But because we opted out, I didn't have to cut half my team.
• 1:34:47
  So we've always had large teams here, even the art golden days.
• 1:34:51
  It's about development. And now we're not as big as they
• 1:34:56
  were in the old days with our golden.
• 1:34:58
  But I carry between 80 and 85 women.
• 1:35:03
  And there's still a Title 9 cap, which is 67 for the men's side,
• 1:35:08
  but that's a heck of a lot better than 45.
• 1:35:11
  So we still have that development part.
• 1:35:15
  And I didn't have to cut half my team because we're not paying
• 1:35:17
  any athletes here. So it's about academic student
• 1:35:23
  athlete welfare is what we're all about here.
• 1:35:26
  Let me pick your brain on that. You're like every good coach,
• 1:35:29
  you're one step ahead of me 'cause it's exactly where I
• 1:35:31
  wanted to go with you on that. Kevin, first of all, I
• 1:35:33
  appreciate your origin story with your wife.
• 1:35:34
  As a guy who's a fellow guy who's married to an Amy, I get
• 1:35:38
  it. That's my wifes name as well so
• 1:35:40
  I love. That.
• 1:35:41
  Story great background there in regards to Bucknell and today's
• 1:35:46
  what I'll call it today's instead of blood.
• 1:35:47
  My question was going to be what you know, you've been there for
• 1:35:49
  25 years. What have you seen different?
• 1:35:50
  You started describing a lot of those what I'm curious about One
• 1:35:54
  of the things that I I, I, I, I'll say I fight back on.
• 1:35:58
  So you know, I have turned my career.
• 1:36:02
  I have a lot of similarities to you, Kevin.
• 1:36:05
  The sense of like I've been here 20 years now at Gil after
• 1:36:07
  coaching for 10. And first of all, I see a lot of
• 1:36:10
  different when I got to Gil in 06 that is different than today,
• 1:36:13
  Gil in 2026 and a lot of positive manners.
• 1:36:17
  What we do and how we do changes a lot with how NCAA and track
• 1:36:21
  and field goes in those regards as well.
• 1:36:23
  And one of the things that I've been able to do with my career
• 1:36:26
  here that I'm like, it's the I just have the best job in the
• 1:36:28
  world is I get to be an advocate, a cheerleader,
• 1:36:32
  whatever. I've been described many
• 1:36:33
  different ways for track and field coaches.
• 1:36:35
  You know, it's like I care about Kevin and I love that you're
• 1:36:38
  Coach Donner and that keeps me employed and I appreciate that.
• 1:36:40
  But Kevin to me is very important that, you know, you
• 1:36:43
  could have done a lot of things, maybe not engineering, but you
• 1:36:45
  could have done a lot of things. Thank God for me and my family.
• 1:36:48
  You chose coaching track and field.
• 1:36:50
  So one of the things that I partake in is especially through
• 1:36:54
  social media is having conversations again about myth
• 1:36:56
  busting a little bit, right. So you hear this now with the
• 1:36:59
  new NCAA air quotes there, but the the roster caps.
• 1:37:03
  That's the big deal is that, you know, there's no more
• 1:37:05
  development in college track and field.
• 1:37:08
  And specifically they're saying there's no more development in
• 1:37:10
  Division One. I'd say more at the Division One
• 1:37:13
  level. Well, buying kids and but it's
• 1:37:17
  trickling down to. I'll disagree with that, Kevin,
• 1:37:21
  but. That kid broke that.
• 1:37:24
  Division Three record on our track this past week.
• 1:37:26
  What what I push back on is. That like there was, I was in
• 1:37:31
  this argument really online yesterday about, you know, kids
• 1:37:34
  and development if it, and if a high school coach doesn't do XY
• 1:37:37
  and Z, they're really holding the kid back, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:37:39
  And what they're really saying, they're not saying the, the
• 1:37:42
  quiet part out loud is they're really saying that kid may not
• 1:37:45
  be able to go to, well, you, some of the schools that you
• 1:37:48
  have talked about here, Michigan or Michigan State or inside your
• 1:37:51
  state, Penn State, etcetera, that you're, you're right, that
• 1:37:53
  high school kid might not be able to go to their air quotes
• 1:37:56
  dream school, the school they grew up being a fan of for
• 1:37:59
  football. By the way, let's be real here.
• 1:38:02
  And the reason I push back is like, hey Will, that kid still
• 1:38:04
  has a lot of amazing. Options out there from.
• 1:38:08
  Bucknell to junior College in CAN wherever there's AI mean
• 1:38:12
  there are a ton of great coaches.
• 1:38:15
  How have you been able to So what has changed for you.
• 1:38:20
  I love that your rosters and stuff hasn't had had to change
• 1:38:22
  because roster limits, but I have to imagine recruiting has
• 1:38:26
  maybe changed whether it's the mentality of the kid today, the
• 1:38:29
  mentality of the parent of the kid etcetera.
• 1:38:31
  What the social media definitely is different In 25 years that
• 1:38:34
  you've been in Buck now, how have you adapted and developed
• 1:38:37
  in recruiting today's 18 year old versus 2001's 18 year old?
• 1:38:43
  Oh, it's changed a lot now. We at Bucknell, because of our
• 1:38:48
  high academic standards and the fact that we're not a considered
• 1:38:53
  a blue blood for track and field or cross country, we had to
• 1:38:57
  throw a very large net out there for recruiting.
• 1:39:00
  And but there were some restrictions because Bucknell
• 1:39:06
  has a 25 to 30% acceptance rate. So that would be pretty smart.
• 1:39:11
  You have to have very good grades.
• 1:39:14
  You got to be taking AP classes, honors classes.
• 1:39:18
  You used to have to have a very high SAT score.
• 1:39:22
  Now we are test optional. But you know, if you have a high
• 1:39:26
  score, it really helps a lot for us.
• 1:39:31
  But also the last few years, I believe I've had my best
• 1:39:36
  recruiting because of these roster caps at the larger
• 1:39:41
  schools. Not everybody can just go and
• 1:39:44
  make the Penn State team right now, right?
• 1:39:47
  Not everybody can be at Notre Dame.
• 1:39:50
  Not everybody can be at Georgetown, places like that
• 1:39:54
  which have been blue bloods in, you know, the sport, at least
• 1:39:58
  out East here. And so they got to go someplace.
• 1:40:03
  And we might be kind of that next step.
• 1:40:07
  So I have found that there's the last couple years recruiting,
• 1:40:12
  there's just been better kids available at some of the Power 4
• 1:40:17
  schools just could not take you can't right caps and and I think
• 1:40:23
  I've told my staff this that, you know, we have to be ready.
• 1:40:27
  And I do think there's going to be some very good, good kids
• 1:40:31
  available. And I believe my last two to
• 1:40:33
  three years have been our best recruiting.
• 1:40:36
  So and we're able to take them in because we're not at a 45%
• 1:40:42
  cap, because we're not paying any of our athletes here at
• 1:40:45
  Bucknell. Now the quarterback at Bucknell
• 1:40:49
  is not getting any money. He's he might get a scholarship,
• 1:40:54
  that's it. If he gets some NIL money, he's
• 1:40:58
  getting it on his own, right? The way it was, the way it was
• 1:41:02
  intended, by the way. Yeah, well, that was the
• 1:41:04
  intention of nil. Was the market yourself and get
• 1:41:08
  the extra money, which you couldn't do a few years ago.
• 1:41:11
  It was not about universities taking a collective from alumni
• 1:41:15
  and then just giving it to the kid so they found a back door of
• 1:41:20
  NIL. We're not allowed to do that
• 1:41:22
  here. We can't take a collective and
• 1:41:24
  pay people. Our kids can still try to get
• 1:41:29
  some NIL on their own and I believe our good job and thrower
• 1:41:34
  Abby might be looking into that. I'm not sure exactly what she
• 1:41:39
  does, but I think she's looking into doing lessons and stuff
• 1:41:44
  like that and so. That's.
• 1:41:47
  What the Nils original intent was for not to.
• 1:41:52
  Get collectives and pay a. Quarterback $1,000,000 so we're
• 1:41:56
  not allowed to do that since we opted out and we because of that
• 1:42:00
  we can maintain our business as usual roster.
• 1:42:05
  How do you when you're talking? To whether it's a parent, a high
• 1:42:08
  school coach or the kid themselves, the you know, again,
• 1:42:11
  I'm doing air quotes here, the D1 or bus now you are D1, but
• 1:42:14
  you're the kid that just says, hey, coach, appreciate you
• 1:42:17
  calling me. Or you know when I say kid, it
• 1:42:19
  could be the parent high school. There's a lot of gatekeepers
• 1:42:22
  here. Coach, love you, love your
• 1:42:24
  program. That's all good.
• 1:42:24
  But you know what? I'm coach.
• 1:42:26
  I'm. I'm going to Notre Dame, I'm
• 1:42:28
  going to Michigan. And you're like, brother,
• 1:42:30
  brother, you run 4:15 in the mile, you ain't doing that.
• 1:42:33
  How do you? Yeah, we we still get that.
• 1:42:35
  We're. Just I think we're just aiming a
• 1:42:36
  little higher. Yeah, I think we're just cuz
• 1:42:40
  what I'm curious, are you are you trying to convince?
• 1:42:42
  That kid. Or do you say, OK, cool, you
• 1:42:46
  know, underneath your breath when they don't call, you call
• 1:42:49
  me back. Like what?
• 1:42:50
  How do you handle that? Yeah, well, I just want to let
• 1:42:53
  them. Know that we're a viable option
• 1:42:56
  and but with that said, because of our high academic standards,
• 1:43:01
  our recruiting calendars a little earlier and a lot of
• 1:43:06
  those places. So how do you think about that
• 1:43:08
  they've got? Yeah, where you?
• 1:43:10
  Have to apply by January 15th here.
• 1:43:13
  If you don't have an application in by January 15th, you're not
• 1:43:16
  coming, is that right? So there's.
• 1:43:19
  No fighting a guy July at summer club, there's none of that.
• 1:43:25
  Interesting. The majority of our, you know,
• 1:43:27
  we just had a junior day at our Bison Outdoor Classic.
• 1:43:30
  We had 61 juniors there. Our recruiting is done right
• 1:43:34
  now. It is literally done.
• 1:43:36
  Yeah. For the seniors in high school,
• 1:43:40
  right? You know, May 1st.
• 1:43:42
  Is. When everybody else send a
• 1:43:46
  deposit, but with our slot program where 90% of our
• 1:43:50
  recruiting is done, there's a few kids who applied who got
• 1:43:54
  accepted that were we, we call them walk ONS and they have to
• 1:44:00
  decide by May 1st if they want to come to Bucknell and we have
• 1:44:04
  to decide whether we want to give them a roster spot or not.
• 1:44:07
  What's the party of our recruiting is done?
• 1:44:10
  What's the leniency May 1st? Comes around and a I'll just
• 1:44:15
  keep using the miles example A4 O 4.
• 1:44:18
  I'm I'm assuming you would love to have a four O 4 Miller
• 1:44:21
  obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:44:23
  You never know 4. Miller, your school?
• 1:44:25
  Record's 4 flat, so it's not like 4.
• 1:44:27
  O 4 is going to come in and be the school record holder, but OK
• 1:44:29
  a four O 4 calls and says hey coach, I've been watching very
• 1:44:32
  far. I definitely want to go to buck
• 1:44:33
  now. Nothing I can do really 0.
• 1:44:36
  Nothing I can do Zero. Yeah.
• 1:44:40
  So you're must have maybe still accept an application February
• 1:44:46
  15th. Maybe yeah, they're actually cuz
• 1:44:51
  they you know, we have the early decision one early decision 2
• 1:44:55
  process, but the regular decision process is you have to
• 1:44:59
  apply by January 15th. You're going to either get
• 1:45:02
  denied or accepted by the third week of March.
• 1:45:06
  And then you have the third week of March to May 1st and decide
• 1:45:09
  if you want to deposit here. So your staff once the letters.
• 1:45:13
  Are sent. The acceptance or.
• 1:45:17
  Denial letters. Or wait list letters are sent
• 1:45:19
  the third week of March. There is, absolutely.
• 1:45:23
  Nothing we can do. They might be nice and you know,
• 1:45:28
  if I present a kid mid February, they might be able to accept his
• 1:45:35
  application or her application because they they're not done
• 1:45:40
  making their right, right, right, right, right.
• 1:45:43
  So they can get them in the. Pool and and if I, you know,
• 1:45:48
  present them a kid in mid February and we have some slots
• 1:45:54
  left, they'll they'll probably accept the application, but
• 1:45:58
  especially if it's a good student, if it's a bad student
• 1:46:02
  they. Might not accept it here.
• 1:46:05
  So I'd say yeah, once mid February hits, there's really
• 1:46:11
  not much we can do. So your staff is busting hump,
• 1:46:15
  Junior. Spring of junior year through
• 1:46:17
  summer and fall and summer, you're turning back over to the
• 1:46:22
  senior year is critical. Yeah, the fall of.
• 1:46:26
  The senior year, yeah, that's when it's happening.
• 1:46:30
  Wow. Yeah, that's.
• 1:46:32
  When it's happening, we are. Busy in the fall and early
• 1:46:36
  winter, yeah. And then we kind of take a
• 1:46:41
  little break. We're just, you know,
• 1:46:42
  maintaining contact with the recruits who committed to us.
• 1:46:46
  But there's a few. Stragglers that.
• 1:46:48
  We're still kind of working on, For example, there's a young
• 1:46:52
  lady who has an acceptance letter from Buck now.
• 1:46:56
  We recruited her in the fall, but since then she's gone from
• 1:47:03
  above average to outstanding and all of a sudden people are
• 1:47:09
  recruiting her. She has an acceptance letter at
• 1:47:12
  Bucknell. We she has to make a decision by
• 1:47:15
  May 1st and that's where we're coming in now.
• 1:47:19
  Got it, Gets this girl to apply. Or she must have.
• 1:47:22
  Liked it, but we may not offer at the time.
• 1:47:27
  But. Since then the last three months
• 1:47:30
  she's gotten very, very good, right.
• 1:47:33
  And now we're we're going to try to get her and get her deposit
• 1:47:37
  here and maybe you know, able to make, you know, like a financial
• 1:47:43
  aid off. Yeah.
• 1:47:44
  So yeah, that that's a good point.
• 1:47:45
  You are still. Recruiting during that spring of
• 1:47:47
  surgery, yes, but it's the kids already accepted.
• 1:47:50
  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:47:51
  Right, Right, right, right, right.
• 1:47:53
  I'll tell you that, said that the.
• 1:47:54
  Calendar is a lot different than I was at Saint Francis, Central
• 1:47:59
  Michigan. Yeah, to Detroit.
• 1:48:01
  I I could see that being. Frustrating because like I said,
• 1:48:05
  you know, I know some kids will call you late and you're just
• 1:48:07
  like, man, I I wish we could buddy, but it's too late.
• 1:48:10
  That's what's. What's frustrating is when a kid
• 1:48:14
  was maybe an average to good athlete in the fall and we
• 1:48:20
  weren't all that excited about them or her and all of a sudden.
• 1:48:27
  Mid-May to June, yeah. Start popping.
• 1:48:31
  Right. Oh man, we had that kid here.
• 1:48:34
  Yeah, yeah. But I can also.
• 1:48:36
  See it being a little freeing of like, OK, this is kind of my end
• 1:48:39
  date now I get to work on the next year.
• 1:48:40
  Well, that's you also have to be much better at identifying
• 1:48:44
  sophomore and junior talent as well.
• 1:48:46
  You do need to do that. But also the good news is we can
• 1:48:51
  throw hard deadlines at kids too.
• 1:48:53
  And sometimes that helps 100% absolutely a lot of.
• 1:48:58
  Other schools, they don't. Really give a hard deadline.
• 1:49:02
  We have to when we make a slot offer for admissions that they
• 1:49:08
  we have to throw a hard deadline.
• 1:49:10
  So usually when we make. An offer we give.
• 1:49:14
  Them, you know, a week or two to decide and we if they turn us
• 1:49:20
  down, we move on. Yeah.
• 1:49:22
  Or we're, we're not waiting for a month to six weeks at all.
• 1:49:26
  That's it, right? Kevin, we're near the end of our
• 1:49:29
  time. You're right, that did go by
• 1:49:32
  fast, I told. You there's two.
• 1:49:34
  Things we'll wait until let's see if you do it after we hit
• 1:49:37
  stop here in a little bit. But number one is always, boy,
• 1:49:40
  this goes a lot faster than I thought.
• 1:49:42
  And I hope that happens for our listeners, too.
• 1:49:44
  I always tell people this is a hard podcast to listen to.
• 1:49:46
  I get it. It's close to two hours because
• 1:49:49
  you're a track geek like we are. Yeah, let.
• 1:49:51
  Me. Tell you what, our numbers.
• 1:49:52
  Tell us that there's still a lot of people that are really
• 1:49:54
  interested in the whole journey. Absolutely.
• 1:49:57
  I'm doing this for an audience. Of two buddy, trust me,
• 1:50:00
  thousands. Thousands.
• 1:50:01
  Thousands and I'm. Blessed that each and every one
• 1:50:03
  of them choose to hear our track coaches around the country.
• 1:50:05
  So my last question, Kevin, as we wrap up here is you've done
• 1:50:11
  25 years there Bucknell, you seem to be as excited today as
• 1:50:16
  maybe you were in day one. What in the world as you start
• 1:50:19
  looking to the future and you get to define that, whether it's
• 1:50:22
  the 2026 season, 2030 season, etcetera, what's got you excited
• 1:50:26
  about the future of Bucknell track and field, cross country?
• 1:50:29
  Well, I I just love the sport, obviously.
• 1:50:32
  The you know, it was funny. We had a decathlon that went
• 1:50:36
  through Monday just last week at our outdoor classic and it was
• 1:50:42
  just a nice day. And you know, normally I would
• 1:50:45
  be in the office on Monday morning, but I'm, you know, just
• 1:50:49
  watching this multi and I commented some coaches, I said
• 1:50:53
  things could be worse. We could be in the office right
• 1:50:56
  now. Here we are at a track meet.
• 1:50:59
  Pretty good Monday. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:51:02
  It's. Just I love all the different
• 1:51:05
  directions as coaches that we can go from an administrative
• 1:51:09
  part to the coaching part to building the relationships to
• 1:51:13
  putting fires out. And, you know, we do it all and
• 1:51:18
  we're never bored. There's, you know, the days,
• 1:51:23
  every day is a little bit different.
• 1:51:25
  And of course there's some ups and downs.
• 1:51:27
  Of course there's some drama, of course there's some, you know,
• 1:51:32
  things, you know, where we have to put a fire out, which isn't
• 1:51:35
  fun or things like that. But overall it's a very exciting
• 1:51:39
  lifestyle, very exciting job. I'm very passionate about the
• 1:51:43
  sport, but I also just love educating the students.
• 1:51:50
  The student athlete welfare is a huge part of our job, and I want
• 1:51:55
  our kids to have a very good experience from an academic side
• 1:52:00
  to an athletic side to a social side.
• 1:52:04
  That's important to us. And our retention rate is
• 1:52:07
  extremely high here. I don't really deal with the
• 1:52:10
  transfer portal hardly at all. If I do, it's usually for, you
• 1:52:16
  know, it's a graduate who's looking to go to grad school who
• 1:52:22
  might have a year of eligibility.
• 1:52:25
  And we don't have many graduate programs at Bucknell.
• 1:52:27
  So I have kids all over the country at different schools
• 1:52:31
  right now in Graduate School doing fifth years.
• 1:52:35
  And I encourage that. And you know, Bucknell is not
• 1:52:39
  really an option for most of them because we only have like
• 1:52:42
  two or three graduate programs here.
• 1:52:45
  So, you know, I just love every aspect about Bucknell, but
• 1:52:51
  especially the student athlete welfare.
• 1:52:55
  And I have fun. I, I'd like to say we're, we
• 1:53:00
  have a lot of structure, but we're laid back.
• 1:53:03
  I'm not a yeller and I don't pressure kids at all.
• 1:53:09
  I want the kids have a good experience.
• 1:53:11
  I want track and field practice to be the best part of their
• 1:53:14
  day. I really do.
• 1:53:16
  And our retention rate once again, is we don't have many
• 1:53:19
  kids that quit the team. Sometimes I wish we did, but we,
• 1:53:23
  we, we don't and we don't pressure kids.
• 1:53:26
  And at all, you know, we, we have great students here.
• 1:53:32
  Our team Gpas are extremely high.
• 1:53:35
  I don't have to, you know, every now and then we have a few kids
• 1:53:38
  where we have to worry about eligibility, but not near as
• 1:53:42
  often. I had at some of the other
• 1:53:43
  incidents that I've been at. And.
• 1:53:47
  So it's, I decided, you know, 1520 years ago that I was going
• 1:53:55
  to retire at Bucknell. I have not updated my resume
• 1:53:59
  whatsoever. I don't know when retirement's
• 1:54:03
  going to be. As I say, not for a while
• 1:54:05
  though, right? Could be a year.
• 1:54:07
  Could be. It could be 3.
• 1:54:11
  It all depends on things. I still have a daughter in
• 1:54:13
  college. Yeah, that's right.
• 1:54:15
  Right now I feel good sometimes, you know, I notice climbing the
• 1:54:22
  bleachers at Bucknell to the press box is not as easy as it
• 1:54:27
  keeps getting longer years ago. Another.
• 1:54:30
  Thing I've noticed is after meats, I used to enjoy the
• 1:54:34
  camaraderie with other coaches, like at these two or three day
• 1:54:38
  meats. I used to enjoy meeting up at
• 1:54:41
  restaurants and, you know, having a drink and that's a lot
• 1:54:46
  tougher now and I'm tired, you know, after these two or three
• 1:54:49
  day meats, I'm tired. So.
• 1:54:51
  The time will come. I can't coach forever.
• 1:54:55
  That's right. I also don't want to be one of
• 1:54:57
  those coaches that stays too long.
• 1:55:00
  You know what I mean? There's I'm out there.
• 1:55:02
  I don't want to be that coach. I think from a financial
• 1:55:06
  standpoint, anywhere from 1:00 to 2:00, maybe 3 at the most.
• 1:55:11
  Yeah, there's. I'm 60. 5 or I'm sorry, I'm 64.
• 1:55:16
  I'll be 65 December. You know, the average age of
• 1:55:21
  retirement at Buck now is 65. So who knows?
• 1:55:26
  It might be next year. It might be a year later.
• 1:55:31
  But I can't coach here forever. Yeah.
• 1:55:33
  And. You know.
• 1:55:36
  So we'll see what happens in the next year or two.
• 1:55:38
  I had a conversation with A. Now former college track coaches
• 1:55:42
  in the financial advising world and called me up to talk about,
• 1:55:47
  you know, some coaches and things like that, not specifics,
• 1:55:49
  but the coaching profession. And he meant he said, I want to
• 1:55:52
  help coaches coach at an age of your age and stage Kevin,
• 1:55:55
  because they want to, not because they have to, meaning
• 1:55:58
  financially, like I can't retire guys that you know.
• 1:56:00
  So I I love that and bless that for all of our coaches when
• 1:56:03
  we're recording this. One of my dear friends in
• 1:56:07
  another legend just announced his retirement in Mcburn over in
• 1:56:11
  Wisconsin. I saw that.
• 1:56:12
  I love that Iona. Yeah.
• 1:56:15
  What a wonderful. Job in Wisconsin in in one of
• 1:56:19
  the most. Fantastic people.
• 1:56:20
  I've ever, I love Mick. He's just amazing to get to know
• 1:56:23
  his wife and stuff through different projects.
• 1:56:25
  I just, I love the Byrne family. So super happy for him.
• 1:56:29
  And you know what, Kevin, one day I'm going to be happy for
• 1:56:31
  you when you go out the way you want to go out.
• 1:56:33
  And you know what? You know what's interesting?
• 1:56:35
  I'm going to wrap it up with this, Kevin.
• 1:56:36
  You know, we'll hear this a lot from high school coaches and
• 1:56:39
  even college coaches, things like that.
• 1:56:40
  When they advise a kid about picking a school and they'll say
• 1:56:43
  a lot of things about, you know, pick a school that even if the
• 1:56:46
  coach wasn't there, which you know, OK, but we all know we're
• 1:56:49
  picking a coach here. Let's be real, you know, but
• 1:56:52
  what struck me there was like, I think I have a freshman and a
• 1:56:56
  6th grader. So I think about college at some
• 1:56:59
  point here soon, sooner than later.
• 1:57:01
  And and I think about boy, I'd really like a coach who might my
• 1:57:04
  son's name is Troy. I'd really like a coach who
• 1:57:07
  cares about Troy and not his PRI want you to care about his PR in
• 1:57:10
  the sense of like help him improve, but not that that's his
• 1:57:14
  identity. His identity is he is his name,
• 1:57:16
  who he is first and foremost in the way you talked about your
• 1:57:20
  athletes there. I know you want success and
• 1:57:22
  you've had and you will continue to have a lot of success.
• 1:57:24
  You know, certainly today, you know, we could talk a lot about
• 1:57:27
  just your javelin thrower alone and your throws coach doing a
• 1:57:29
  great job there. You guys have the number one
• 1:57:31
  javelin throw in the stinking world as we record this.
• 1:57:34
  So obviously you're improving people and developing people,
• 1:57:37
  but boy, it is more important. I think that you know, who Timmy
• 1:57:44
  and Tommy and Sally and Cindy, who they are as people and the
• 1:57:48
  holistic approach academically, athletically and socially, I
• 1:57:51
  think we some we, we, we coaches like the kind of just like, Oh
• 1:57:54
  yeah, yeah, yeah. But that that is important.
• 1:57:55
  That is a part, very important who an 18 to 22 year old is,
• 1:57:58
  man. So I'm just impressed with that,
• 1:58:00
  Kevin. And you know, boy, if you'll
• 1:58:02
  retire by the time my kid goes to college, but and you don't
• 1:58:06
  coach bass fishing. That's what my son's going to
• 1:58:07
  do. He's not back at all.
• 1:58:10
  Well, one of our custodians is a.
• 1:58:11
  Professional fisherman here. Is that right?
• 1:58:13
  Yes. The actually does some coaching.
• 1:58:19
  That's awesome. I love that.
• 1:58:20
  I love that. Kevin, my friend.
• 1:58:22
  Thank you so much man. The most valuable thing that you
• 1:58:24
  can give me is time. I know you're busy.
• 1:58:25
  You're head coach, man. You got stuff to do.
• 1:58:27
  You got practice, you got another meet to go to, you got a
• 1:58:30
  lot of stuff to do. So I'm so, so grateful for your
• 1:58:32
  time today. Your openness and authenticity
• 1:58:34
  is awesome, man. I think that's going to help a
• 1:58:36
  lot of people who are listening to your journey as well and just
• 1:58:39
  really, really grateful for you, my friend.
• 1:58:41
  All right. I appreciate.
• 1:58:43
  You having me, Mike? This has been a lot of fun.
• 1:58:45
  You're right. It it didn't seem like it lasted
• 1:58:48
  as long as it did. You've been on for two hours and
• 1:58:51
  5 minutes. Yeah, buddy, feels like it was
• 1:58:54
  45. Minutes so.
• 1:58:55
  A lot of fun big I love talking track and field and sounds like
• 1:58:59
  you love it too and that sorts out really well.
• 1:59:02
  Thanks for inviting me awesome. Thank you for your trust, for
• 1:59:04
  sharing your your. Journey in this great profession
• 1:59:06
  guys and gals. Thank you so much for being here
• 1:59:07
  today. I love just the different.
• 1:59:10
  Avenues I love. That, you know, I love when a
• 1:59:13
  young kid, a 1617 year old kid knows they want to be a track
• 1:59:15
  coach one day, that that's, that's precious.
• 1:59:17
  I love when a guy grows into it and sees what's been in front of
• 1:59:20
  him the whole time. These coaches, these mentors
• 1:59:23
  that have been with them and they and he realizes, wait a
• 1:59:25
  minute, I want that impact on young people as well.
• 1:59:28
  And so I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that Kevin was
• 1:59:30
  not a good mechanical engineering student, honestly,
• 1:59:34
  because he got to impact way more young people positively.
• 1:59:36
  Yeah, so grateful. So thanks again for pressing
• 1:59:40
  play today. Join us next week.
• 1:59:42
  We'll do it all over again. Thanks, guys.
• 1:59:43
  You got it. If it goes to appreciate the
• 1:59:50
  coach. The ones that pouring people
• 1:59:52
  most every season needs a voice of reason speaking the growth
• 1:59:55
  you got to prep before you carry the load.
• 1:59:57
  Ice coffee to the soul. For those of us who stay on the
• 2:00:00
  go proper handoff to stay in the zone which you packing for the
• 2:00:03
  road. There's more than one way to go.
• 2:00:05
  Taking notes that's paying your toe.
• 2:00:07
  It ain't practice if your purpose ain't clear.
• 2:00:09
  It can't happen until you listen.
• 2:00:11
  With both is. You can't mentor without a
• 2:00:13
  mentor of experience. You can reinvent those years
• 2:00:16
  every plan's got to stand and deliver to.
• 2:00:19
  And the price sacrifice can you give up you.
• 2:00:21
  It's a choice and the fight not a win or lose.
• 2:00:24
  It's not a ploy boy device. Y'all can make more moves.
• 2:00:26
  It's not about how to it's all about why you don't know till
• 2:00:29
  you know who you are inside 6,000,000 waste of time choose
• 2:00:33
  none. So y'all cross finish line.
• 2:00:35
  The work ain't done so we learn from the experts but y'all got
• 2:00:38
  to put in the leg work guilt. Athletics use the network.
• 2:00:41
  It's all about connections put together for the profession to
• 2:00:44
  where every track coach could be blessing.