Latest / National Immigration Law Center Freedom to Thrive Podcast / Ep. #114 Encountering ICE: In Life and in Art

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Ep. #114 Encountering ICE: In Life and in Art · National Immigration Law Center Freedom to Thrive Podcast

• 0:00
  We're back and recording in the midst of so much happening in the world.
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  And in all of the negative heavy stuff, there are some significant positives
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  that I want to highlight.
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  Resistance is in the air.
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  Community and joy, love, people are coming together in support of immigrants
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  as these terrible ice raids and threats of mass deportations are being carried
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  out in communities all across the country.
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  And there's a couple of headlines from the news that I want to highlight.
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  One is just the volume of demonstrations happening across the country in support of immigrants,
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  many of them led by young people and immigrants themselves happening in places,
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  places that you might expect.
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  In fact, Los Angeles, for example, has been demonstrating for seven straight days.
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  No surprise, Los Angeles, there's a lot of immigrants in this community,
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  but places like Chicago, New York, Denver, Seattle also turning out.
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  And then places that I wouldn't normally have expected.
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  Places in the South like Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Nebraska,
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  Utah, Texas, and Arizona.
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  Humans are showing up for their humans. It's so powerful and beautiful to see.
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  There's also this report that
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  the U.S. Senate phone line has been jammed with 1,600 calls per minute.
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  A normal rate for them is 40 calls per minute.
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  But people are getting engaged, calling their senators, voicing their opinions,
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  and not just about immigration, other stuff too.
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  There's a lot happening, but this is beautiful. And these are real-time reminders
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  that we, the people, have power.
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  And we can own it and stand in it and come together and look out for one another because it works.
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  Now, another story that I want to flag is actually one that makes me really sad.
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  I was following it and hoping for a different outcome. But a young man,
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  he's 24, he's a middle school science teacher, was detained by ICE at a, quote.
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  Routine immigration hearing that he had. This was in Florida.
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  He came to the United States at the age of 13. He was a DACA recipient,
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  which means that he had the right to work and live in the U.S.
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  But after attending that routine immigration hearing and being detained by ICE,
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  he's now been deported. He was deported, I believe, a couple of days ago.
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  And, you know, the United Teachers of Dade have shared that this young man did
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  not have a criminal record.
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  And now this middle school science teacher has been separated from his family,
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  his students, his community, and his country that he called home.
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  And I've talked a lot about the power of
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  art holding up a mirror to society and that's what we're doing today because
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  a short film called A Lean is currently up for an Academy Award for Best Live
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  Action Short Film and this film
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  is about a family encounter with ICE at a routine immigration hearing.
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  It's heart-stopping, it's heartbreaking, frankly I think it needs a trigger
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  warning because it's really intense.
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  And the film's director, Sam Cutler-Kreutz, is with us today to talk about the film.
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  In addition to being nominated for this Academy Award, he's an award-winning
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  film director and cinematographer based in New York with other films including
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  Flounder, Trapped, Fallout, and Trust Me.
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  And we're doing things differently, as I have said before. We're welcoming my
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  brilliant colleague, Joanna Cuevas Ingram.
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  She's a senior staff attorney at the National Immigration Law Center.
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  Joanna's joining the conversation. She's a litigator with significant due process,
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  equal protection, and civil rights litigation experience.
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  And she has a pretty incredible and impressive track record of winning in the courts.
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  She's here to share information about our rights and what we should know if
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  we were to have an encounter with ICE.
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  This will be a powerful conversation and you don't want to miss it.
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  This is the NILC Freedom to Thrive podcast, Powering pro-immigrant narratives, one story at a time.
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  I'm Victoria Ballesteros, Executive Vice President of Narrative at the National
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  Immigration Law Center.
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  Sam, Joanna, welcome so much to the podcast. I'm so excited to see you both.
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  Thank you. Thank you for having us. Sam, congratulations on your Academy Award nomination.
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  Thank you. You must be feeling really excited about that. What was the inspiration
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  behind the film? What led you to make this film?
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  And did I say the title right? Sorry, can you say the title of the film? No, of course it's fine.
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  Yeah, the title is a play on words, so I sort of love the fact that people don't
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  know how to say it. But, you know, a lean is how we say it.
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  A lean. Like a lean on your house. Yeah, okay.
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  But yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And, you know, it is very exciting.
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  The Academy Awards is very exciting. But also, it's, you know,
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  when you're as an artist, you make something, you don't exactly know,
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  you know, what will happen with it.
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  And it's really exciting to see the art that you make kind of meet its moment.
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  And I think this film is really meeting the moment, the current moment.
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  And there's some sort of cosmic forces that are intersecting these two things together.
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  And I feel like the response that we've had across the board from the film has
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  been really incredible and people feel like very much resonating with it and
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  with the experience that it kind of portrays and people are feeling, I think,
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  very kind of like fired up by it and which is exactly part of the reason we made it.
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  And so it's exciting to see it kind of have its moment, you know,
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  to kind of help spark and be part of that conversation that we're having as
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  a country about immigration, which is, you know, so much of the Nashville dialogue right now.
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  But to go to your earlier question, why we made it or what the kind of the genesis
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  of it was, you know, so David, my brother and I, who worked together,
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  were co-writers, co-directors, co-producers. We made the film together.
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  We read a New York Times article in 2018 about this exact process.
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  And we were just absolutely struck, sort of flabbergasted that it was possible,
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  legal, and that it was happening to people that felt so cruel and sort of so twisted.
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  The idea of ICE entrapping you at your own, you know, green car,
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  I-130 interview, your own sort of green car marriage interview.
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  And so I think that, you know, sort of sparked us to just how do we activate,
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  you know, sort of advocate against this process, this process.
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  And I think this, this particular, what struck us about this process in particular
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  was, you know, in the kind of banal cruelty of it, this sort of the uncertainty,
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  the waiting and the kind of the fact that they're trying to go do everything
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  right and still being, you know,
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  taken by ICE struck us as sort of emblematic of the larger, of the process and
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  the larger problems where people are.
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  Most people are just trying to do the right thing.
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  Everyone, most immigrants in the country that are here illegally or illegally
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  are just here to be with their families.
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  They're here to go to the grocery store and pick their kids up from,
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  from daycare and, you know, live a normal life.
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  And so, you know, trying to do the right thing and still getting,
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  you know, you know, deported for it persecuted for it is something that I think
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  felt resonant to the larger problem.
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  Yeah. So you had no idea then, because it sounds like you started making this
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  film or at least got the idea for it in 2018.
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  Or did you know, did you have a sense that, or I mean, obviously you're not
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  a psychic fortune teller, so you wouldn't know that the film today is so timely
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  and relevant. And so at the forefront of people's minds and people's experiences.
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  Yeah you know it's funny i do think in some ways you know
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  whatever life mirrors art and art mirrors life but i do think part of
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  being a maybe not a good artist but an
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  artist who is attuned you know in the right ways is is one who is picking up
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  on the sort of cultural zeitgeist finding a way to kind of soak it up and recrystallize
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  it you know form it into some shape that a viewer you know can engage with but
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  i think in this case you know we're not fortune tellers, we don't know the future,
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  but, you know, this issue wasn't going away.
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  And then the wider kind of maybe socioeconomic or political or zeitgeist,
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  you know, forces that have created, you know, a society that is more tribal,
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  that is more kind of closed-minded.
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  And, you know, in the last 10 years or whatever, I think those forces aren't
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  going away and they've only become more to the forefront as,
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  you know, the election of Trump and the kind of current political state. Yeah.
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  You know, there's there's this very prevalent notion that those of us who work
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  in the immigrant rights space here today.
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  I can't even tell you how many times, this sentiment that people feel like they
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  support immigrants. I support immigrants who do things the right way, right?
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  There's always this talk about doing things the right way. And here we see in
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  life, and here we see in your film,
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  this family that's trying to do things the quote right way, and they're still
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  getting caught up in this immigration system with devastating consequences.
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  And so I just want to challenge that notion and challenge that sentiment.
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  And I think your film does that, whether that's intended or not,
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  right? You're showing a face. And it's also so humanizing.
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  There are these beautiful little moments between this family and,
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  you know, what shirt is he wearing and things like that, that are just so humanizing.
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  And even the slow moving wheels of bureaucracy in this moment where this mother
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  is frantic and the person working behind the counter is just moving very slowly
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  and not feeling the urgency that a mother would feel, right?
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  It's all just very humanizing and very beautifully done. Thank you for doing that.
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  I'm curious, though, like what specifically about this issue,
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  right? Immigration, immigrants drew you to the story.
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  Do you have a personal connection to immigration or you just saw this as just
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  an important topic that needed to be covered?
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  Yeah, and I think, you know, the personal connection I have is the personal
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  connection that most Americans have, which is if you go back one generation
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  with pretty much anybody in the country, you're a generation away from an immigrant, you know,
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  like most people are, it's, you know, I think there's a sentiment that somehow,
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  you know, once you come in the country, it's like, okay, everyone behind you,
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  you know, close the doors, whatever.
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  But I think, you know, it's, it's amazing that, you know, if you look back in
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  your family, you know, my grandparents on my mom's side are from Russia,
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  you know, it's like, wherever you you're from, you know, it's amazing.
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  Everybody is truly, you know.
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  Part of the immigration process. And so I think it's, you know,
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  I don't have like a connection to this particular, you know,
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  New York Times article issue, but I think we all have a connection to immigration.
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  And as, you know, and as citizens of the country have a responsibility to engage
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  with it and to kind of make the country that we want,
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  you know, and it's our job to tell the law, to tell the lawmakers and people
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  in Congress, like, hey, this is how we want it to be.
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  You know we get to choose i think in some ways and i think it's easy
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  in this kind of current climate which is incredibly overwhelming
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  and there's so much noise and and so much
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  kind of statistics and in articles and you can
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  it feels very abstract and very kind of overwhelming to kind of how do we cut
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  through that noise and bring people and filmmaking has that ability that kind
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  of you know it's an empathy machine in some ways you know it can really put
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  people in a way that many other art forms can't do into the shoes of somebody
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  else that that's not their current experience,
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  you know, can that help people think about, you know, this problem in a way
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  that feels more specific and not so kind of abstract?
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  Yeah. Yeah. And that's the beauty, I think, also of art and film and creativity
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  and culture, right, is being able to do that.
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  So in addition to the Academy Award nomination, I'm going to keep saying that
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  because I think it's incredible and I'm super happy for you.
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  What has been the response, the audience response, or what are you hearing?
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  Yeah, I mean, it's been amazing. I think, you know, it's been depressing i guess
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  in some ways as well but in both sort of on both sides of that you know it's
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  been it's there's been a response which is like truly i think the most you know sort of,
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  maybe one of the satisfying things about about the piece coming
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  out to the broader public you know i think the biggest response we've heard
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  across the board is just how much people people people come up to somebody yesterday
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  was talking to us about this like somebody's saying like hey this is felt so
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  resonant to my experience in a process that was similar to this in immigration
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  in some way, the claustrophobia, the uncertainty,
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  the sort of death by a thousand paper cuts, you know, this sort of like this
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  endless waiting and bureaucracy, this kind of Kafka-esque scenario that we've
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  built for everyone, I think is,
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  you know, something that struck David and me about this process and about this
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  particular aspect of it was, you know, it feels like it shows off this idea
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  of a process that's been built for humans, but is fundamentally inhumane, you know?
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  And so I think, you know, people across the board we've talked to who've seen
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  the film have been just, you know, so, I don't know, taken with the capturing
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  of their experience in some emotional way, whether it was, you know,
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  specifically this particular process or not.
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  Yeah, that's so very well put. So I'm going to come right back to you,
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  Sam, but I want to bring in Joanna into the conversation because,
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  Joanna, I would love to hear your response, your reflections as an attorney
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  who does this work, right?
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  You've looked at the film, you watched it, break it down. Like,
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  what would your response be as an attorney?
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  Not giving legal advice, but just, you know, more like what people in a situation
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  like that, you would want them to know. Yeah.
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  So again, this is not legal advice, but just general know-your-rights information and education.
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  I think the film really crystallizes that this can happen to anybody who is
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  following all the steps they're required to.
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  And in that vein, it's important. I think if this family had an attorney,
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  that the attorney prepared them well for this interview, that they had the attorney's
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  number on speed dial to prepare for this moment.
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  And especially because this family had a child, making sure that they had emergency
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  plans just in case, right, for guardianship and powers of attorney,
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  you know, so that their child would not be threatened with Child Protective
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  Services custody, right?
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  That the child is protected, right, in this process, no matter what happens.
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  But to even prevent any of that from happening, to have the attorney come with
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  them to the interview if there is any concern.
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  And if not, to, again, have that number on speed dial.
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  If the father was stopped in the hallway not to run because that could give
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  their argument that they had probable cause or regional suspicion to arrest him, right?
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  So staying put and knowing your rights and saying, no, I have the right to remain
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  silent. I do not wish to speak with you without my attorney present.
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  And I need to speak to my attorney. Can I have permission to call my attorney?
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  And keep asking that because that is your right.
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  You have constitutional rights when you're going through this process or even
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  when you're not going through this process, right?
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  If you are at home, if you are at your employers, if you're at a hospital,
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  if you are at a school, there's something called the Fourth Amendment, right?
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  Which protects you from unlawful search and seizure, right?
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  So knowing your rights is half the battle and it's critical.
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  And in fact, in this environment.
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  Mr. Holman has recognized, CNN reported, that people knowing their rights actually
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  has prevented ICE from engaging in mass raids and other types of conduct that
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  we at NELC would consider potentially unlawful, right?
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  Because people know their rights. And people know they don't have to speak with
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  ICE unless they have an attorney present, unless there is a warrant signed by
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  a federal judge, right? Right.
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  And many times ICE may come, you know, presenting themselves as other types
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  of law enforcement or without informing you as to your rights.
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  So it's really important that we all that all of our loved ones do know their rights.
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  Right. And know that they can call their attorney. They have their emergency friend's phone number.
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  They know their if they have they're going through the process and they have an A number.
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  They know their A number with USCIS. So if anything does happen to them,
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  someone can locate them where they're if they've been detained with their A number.
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  Having all of those emergency plans in place is really important, right?
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  Because if your rights are violated, you have the right to seek legal recourse with an attorney.
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  And you can continually assert your rights, right? So you have a record that
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  you asserted your rights even if they violate them, right?
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  That's the most important thing. And I think this film really just,
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  again, crystallized that it can happen to anybody.
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  You know, it's just really important that everybody have contact with either
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  legal aid or local bar association, get in contact with an attorney that you're
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  going to be able to call if this ever does happen to you, if you don't have one already.
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  And that you also have your plans in place to protect your children and protect
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  your family, if anything were to happen to you, even if it is unlawful and you
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  have to go to the courts to fight for your rights.
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  Thank you for sharing that. And I want to share something that you clarified
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  for me offline, which is as an undocumented person, those constitutional protections
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  still apply to you, right?
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  So those rights, you have those rights regardless of whether you're documented or undocumented.
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  We all have these rights, which is really important for us to know.
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  And I've seen it all over social media, Joanna, including I've seen you on a
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  video doing a Know Your Rights talk all over social media. that people are sharing.
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  Like, again, the community showing up for the community and sharing this information
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  and resharing it millions of times, which is so powerful and important.
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  And I really appreciate you spending time with us.
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  Joanna, where can people go for more information, more Know Your Rights information?
• 17:25
  We can definitely visit our Instagram for NELC. You can also visit our website.
• 17:28
  We have resources for schools, hospitals, employers.
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  You know, social service agencies and others on how to implement training on
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  the Fourth Amendment with your staff to make sure they do not admit ICE without
• 17:41
  a judicially signed warrant and they do not consent to ICE entering their premises, right?
• 17:46
  There's also Know Your Rights information more broadly for individuals.
• 17:49
  You can check out our website, nilc.org.
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  And, you know, there's a whole host of, you know, other colleagues and allies,
• 17:57
  you know, folks out there that are producing great Know Your Rights content.
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  Just make sure you do Know Your Rights if you have access to one of those red
• 18:03
  cards from the Immigration Legal Resource Center, that's also a great resource
• 18:06
  to make sure you know your constitutional rights and you're ready to show that
• 18:10
  card if you ever have an encounter with an ICE agent.
• 18:12
  I was going to say one more thing, and I think the most important thing for
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  all of us is that to take care of each other as a community,
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  take care of ourselves, take care of our loved ones and our family members and
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  friends, and make sure everybody knows their rights, because that is what is
• 18:28
  pushing back against unlawful and unconstitutional conduct.
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  Right, by officers and agents is knowing your rights. And that is,
• 18:36
  there's power in knowing your rights.
• 18:38
  That's right. Thank you, Joanna. Sam, I want to come back to you and ask you,
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  where can people who haven't seen the film, but who want to see it,
• 18:46
  where can they see the film? Yeah, of course. It's online in the U.S.
• 18:49
  On Vimeo, Vimeo, staff pics. You can go find it. If you Google it,
• 18:52
  I guarantee you it's the first thing that's going to come up.
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  And then also, it's going to be coming to theaters very soon,
• 18:57
  14th, I think, along with the four other Oscar live action shorts,
• 19:01
  as well as the animations and the documentaries.
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  So it's an amazing program. If you want to bring your family or whatever,
• 19:07
  five really incredible shorts packaged together into a whatever, 120-hour program.
• 19:12
  And then it's currently being placed outside of the U.S. on various services
• 19:17
  in Spain and in other places.
• 19:20
  But yeah, that's sort of ongoing. And then Academy voters can watch it on their
• 19:24
  own screening room app, which they have access to.
• 19:26
  Beautiful. Congratulations again. We're going to be watching the Oscars and rooting for you.
• 19:32
  I wish you all the best. I'm really rooting for you to win.
• 19:35
  Thanks. I appreciate it. I want to thank our listeners for spending time with us.
• 19:40
  For more immigration truths, visit us at nilk.org and freedomtothrive.com.
• 19:44
  And make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes.
• 19:48
  I look forward to continuing this conversation with all of you.