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189. The Eric Capaci Interview - Part 2 · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:00
Welcome back to this week's episode of Eric Pacey's
0:04
interview. This is Part 2 of what we have
0:08
going on with our interview this week.
0:11
We thank you for listening. We thank you for all those who
0:14
have shared our last episode, share the videos that we've been
0:17
sharing, the clips that we've been sharing.
0:20
This interview has been an interview that me and Brett
0:23
thought up a couple years ago and we're excited about finally
0:27
coming through with it now. And it has been one of these one
0:32
of those monumental episodes for us just being able to get my
0:36
former pastor on here, college president and be able to get his
0:40
words on his transitioning from the IFB.
0:44
Last week we looked at just the his foundational part of his,
0:49
his upbringing where he was at the founding of Champion.
0:52
Today's interviews, really looking for the future and
0:55
seeing what he has been a part of over these last couple of
0:59
years and the future of the vision that God's given him
1:03
there in Hot Springs, AR also this college as well.
1:07
And as we want to share this today.
1:10
Again, if you haven't got our experience box, please go by our
1:13
website. Check that out.
1:14
You get one of each of our cigars, a coffee bag of coffee
1:18
and a bar of soap. And this is all custom.
1:22
It's all handmade. And so we are excited about
1:26
being able to partner with a couple of different companies.
1:29
Our soap company is a brand new company in Tennessee who just
1:33
started up Angela, who just started putting some some great
1:37
soap together, some of the best soap I've ever used.
1:40
And we're partnering with United Christian Missions with our
1:43
experience box and they're providing the coffee for it.
1:47
And every box that you buy is going.
1:49
Proceeds of that are going to help plant churches and
1:53
strengthen churches is in Nicaragua right now they've
1:56
planted about 9 churches and looking to continue to educate
2:01
and provide training for those pastors and even in the future
2:05
plant more churches. And so we are excited about
2:07
partnering with that endeavor to be able to see some proceeds go
2:12
to specifically help those organizations and that
2:15
organization there. And so we hope you go and check
2:18
that out. Small way to help support the
2:21
podcast, but also support some great ministries in that
2:24
endeavor. As always, you can go by and
2:27
check out my recent book that I put out from Brokenness to
2:30
Freedom. I've got an interview on that
2:32
coming out in just a couple of days with the Dead Men Walking
2:37
podcast, as well as with the We Are One podcast.
2:40
Both of them are going to be interviewing me on that book.
2:43
And so we're really excited about that.
2:44
And I think it'll be a help and an encouragement to those who
2:47
have been in the independent fundamental Baptist movement and
2:50
have left and you're processing through feelings, emotions,
2:54
stress. This will be a great resource
2:57
for you during this time, so we hope you enjoy that.
3:01
Again, this is Part 2 of Eric Pacey's episode.
3:04
And as we hope you enjoy it today, we hope you enjoy what it
3:09
is that Eric has to say about the future of his ministry and
3:12
where he's at there and looking forward to next week as we come
3:16
to you and we talked to you about West Coast Baptist Bible
3:19
College, Paul Chapel out there in California.
3:22
And we continue looking through the future of fundamentalism and
3:26
what that looks like and what that's going to go through.
3:29
And as always, if you ever have any questions or comments, feel
3:32
free to reach out to us. Maybe you have your own story
3:35
that you want to share about your time in the IFB.
3:37
We want to give you that platform to be able to share
3:40
with those that can be encouraged by your story.
3:43
And so by all means, reach out to us, shoot us a direct
3:46
message. And we look forward to
3:49
partnering with you in the future.
3:51
And we thank you for that. We hope you enjoyed Part 2 of
3:55
Doctor Eric Pacey's interview. For freedom, you set me free.
3:59
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee.
4:02
Grace lit the flame. Now I'm puffing peace, cigars
4:05
and victory. Justified.
4:07
Released. Welcome to the For Freedom
4:10
podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
4:14
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
4:17
everyday issues. I ain't.
4:19
Saved by dress codes, not by what I eat.
4:22
I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head
4:24
to feet. No tally of tradition.
4:26
No man made code. Blood bought my freedom.
4:28
Now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see
4:31
smoke rings rise. But my prey still ascends past
4:34
the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing.
4:36
That's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws
4:39
and your extra path. He sat with sinners.
4:42
I'm sitting with Saints, sipping grace from the bottle.
4:45
No room for face. I like one for liberty.
4:47
Toast to the king. Every ash of sermon.
4:50
Death has lost its sting. For freedom He set me free.
4:54
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee Grace.
4:57
Let the flame, Now I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory
5:00
justified released. For freedom He set me free.
5:04
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee grace.
5:08
Let the flame now I'm puffing peace cigars and victory
5:11
Justified released. And.
5:24
Brett Martin. As we transition to these next
5:29
questions, before we get to the next question, I'd like to bring
5:32
up something because I think we have a mutual friend and I'm
5:37
sorry if I'm cutting in and out. I I grew up in Open Door Baptist
5:43
Church in McComb, Ms. and my bus captain for a while was a man by
5:49
the name of Mark Cantrell. And so I think you know Mark
5:55
Legend. He's a legend.
5:58
I tell you what, I went to camp with this guy.
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He hit me. He hit me with a pillow.
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We were pillow fighting. He hit me so hard he almost took
6:04
my head off. I never swung another pillow at
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him. But I love, I love brother Mark.
6:09
I love his heart. And so I had.
6:12
I couldn't be on here with you and not mention him.
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Thank you. He's still a faithful member.
6:17
Great guy. Still a Deacon in our church.
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Praise the Lord. Amen.
6:21
Well, this next question you alluded to earlier, but you know
6:27
when you your ministry took a significant turn when you left
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the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement and we want to
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give you an opportunity to to speak into that.
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Was it, was it decisive, clean, was it gradual?
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Just talk us through how that was for you.
6:48
OK. You did cut off at the very end
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when you said we took a significant turn.
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Was it? Did you say that again?
6:55
Was it? You took a significant turn away
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from the independent fundamental Baptist movement, right?
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Just wants you to talk us through that.
7:04
Yeah, so. Or was it a decisive process?
7:07
Thank you. No, it was everything but
7:10
decisive in a way that it was, it was quick and, and, and, and
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it was, I like to put it this way because this is what I used
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to hear. And many times when I would hear
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an independent Baptist preacher preach, If you don't like it,
7:23
the door swings both ways. You know, I hear that a lot.
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I never understood it because I, I honestly didn't want to have a
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church with that kind of an attitude because to me it's, you
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know, it's, I don't want the door to swing both.
7:36
How do you build a church if the doors swinging both way?
7:39
I want to swing in. I realized people are going to
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leave, but I don't want to be on account of my, you know,
7:46
insensitivity. So I realized this I had and I'm
7:51
going to be hard on myself for a second because I think I need to
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be because it, it helps me to say it.
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I got myself into this mess. I mean, you made your bed, Eric.
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You got to lay in it. You got to you.
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You, this is you. You took the church this far.
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You grew to 1500 people with a bus ministry.
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Hellfire Brimstone having Tony Hudson in church.
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And I'm not picking up brother Tony.
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I mean, he's just one of many, but Eric, you're going to have
8:17
to get out of this and for you to just turn your back on all of
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this and just say it was all wrong.
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And, and you know, bless God, we're going to, we're going to
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run over here to, you know, to, to this other side.
8:27
We're going to let the extremism of fundamentalism now become the
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extremism of etcetera, whether it's contemporary or whatever.
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So I realized that is not a good method.
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See, I'm convinced that methodology is incredibly
8:44
important. How you do something is
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important. It's like how we talk the tone
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in which we say something. We could be right and everything
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we're saying, but if our tone is wrong, then nobody's going to
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hear what we're saying. And if they do hear, they're
8:58
going to want to do the exact opposite because we, we, we,
9:01
we've not, we're not saying it in a way that can be received.
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And that that goes for a husband and wife and a pastor and
9:08
member, a friend. And so Brett, I took it very
9:12
slow. I mean, when when the when I got
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back from from New York and and from Brooklyn tab and and this
9:19
whole transition be started. It was about a year, about five
9:23
years, excuse me from start to finish in that five year period.
9:28
It included it included transitioning our music and it
9:34
started with Southern gospel. I mean, I'd always like Southern
9:36
gospel, but when we had the ball brothers in, I lost about, you
9:39
know, 10 meetings and 10 friends and and this is just a Southern
9:43
gospel. We're not talking about, you
9:44
know, and then Casting Crowns. And that to me, Casting Crowns
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is, I mean, that's not, you know, it's not Lecrae, you know,
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I mean, come on, you know, I mean, my kid loved Lecrae.
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You know, I had conversations with our church members.
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I had conversation, hundreds and thousands of conversations.
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The price you have to pay, Jesus said that you got to count the
10:05
cost. I mean, if it, if it doesn't
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cost you something, then it's probably not worth doing.
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But secondly, if you're not going to be willing to pay the
10:13
price, then don't do it. Just don't, don't change.
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And so I knew I, I was going to lose a lot going in and we did.
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It was a slow leak. It went from 1500 down to 750.
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And then we went and our Christian School from 150 kids
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to 50 and our college went from 300 to 30.
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So we basically, I was 30 days away from foreclosure and, and
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all of this, I mean, literally at a bank.
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I mean, not because of mishandling money, not because I
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was, you know, a liberal or it was because we were
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transitioning and fundamental Independent Baptist Church.
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This is and I'm I'm pretty open with my brother and who who say,
10:54
how did you do it? I said, look, it's if you're not
10:57
ready to get 30 days away from foreclosure, not saying you'll
10:59
get there, but for me, it was almost the death of my ministry.
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I remember our deacons called me in and said, preacher, we, if we
11:06
lose it all, we'll just go get us an acre somewhere out and
11:11
Malvern and or Glenwood or Mount Ida and we'll, we'll try to
11:15
start again. You know, we, we were, that we
11:17
really thought it was over. So this, this transition, even
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though I did it with compassion, it's still nobody was mad at me
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though. This is the beautiful thing
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because people were leaving, but they weren't mad like they would
11:30
leave the church. We, I remember one guy we just
11:33
quit the Sunday night service. So he brought his family in him,
11:37
his wife and their three kids. They ended up going to gospel
11:40
like Malvern when they left us and they came and they said,
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preacher, the straw that broke the camel's back for us was
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Sunday night. They said we just and she said,
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my dad's a preacher. And if he, if he, if he is funny
11:53
because he, she said it like this, I'll never forget it.
11:56
He said, if, if, if he knew that we were not going to church on
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Sunday night, he rolled over in his grave.
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And I thought, sister, you just told me he was lost because if
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he's saved, he's not, he's not in the grave.
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But I didn't say that, you know, But he, she said he would roll
12:12
over in his grave. I just can't imagine that my dad
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would be so disappointed to me. And I said, look, I get it.
12:19
I said, you probably need to leave.
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I understand. I, I just want you to know that
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I love you and I want you. I'm not doing this because I, I
12:26
don't care about you. I'm just doing this because this
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is what Jesus is calling me to do.
12:31
And they said, we respect you, we love you, We're not angry
12:33
with you. And they left.
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And this was dozens of families, dozens just for different
12:38
reasons. And it's.
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So after the smoke cleared and the dust settled, we had, we had
12:45
a, a church, but it was a broken church, a church that was on
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fumes. I mean, I, I didn't take a
12:51
salary for six months. We were, my dad wrote me a
12:54
check. I never forget it.
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He said, at that time I was making 40,000 a year, you know,
12:59
and, and he said, Eric, what do you, what do you, what do you
13:02
need to make it? My dad's Catholic.
13:04
He knew what, he knew what I was going through.
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And I said, well, dad, I told the deacons, I'm not going to
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take a check for six months just so we can somehow make it.
13:12
And I don't even know if we're going to make it.
13:14
He said, I'll write you a check for 20,000 for six months so you
13:17
can at least pay your bills. And so my Catholic dad stepped
13:21
in and, and helped my family survive six months without pay.
13:24
And then, and then we still slowly started rebounding and,
13:28
and, and man, it's just been, it went basically from here.
13:33
I'll do it to here and now. We just climbed back up and
13:37
again, it's all been God's grace.
13:38
So it was a slow move. It wasn't.
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I don't look, I think anything that's done in haste and I think
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Scripture teaches this is usually going to lead, whether
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it's anger, whether it's words, whether it's money that we spend
13:54
in haste with all of that is going to usually end with
13:58
regret. I have no regrets about the way
14:00
that I transitioned. I have no regrets about leaving
14:04
fundamentalism and becoming because we did not do it with
14:09
with in a way that was uncaring or unthoughtful.
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We really, we really took it serious.
14:17
And I heard a lot of people. I never razzed Pittman.
14:20
Yeah, I do. So I took I took razz out to
14:23
lunch because razzing as they were going to leave the church.
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They were 60s. They were in the 60s.
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They said, we just can't handle the music preacher.
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We can't do it. Sorry.
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We love you. It's just too loud.
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And I said, look, I know it is. I apologize.
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I don't, I don't always like it and I'm working on it.
14:37
We're trying to get the sound right.
14:38
And but Raz, Esther, I love you and I need you.
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And I said I just, I, I, I, I can't imagine going to church
14:45
without you. I said, but I get it.
14:47
If you think you need to leave, I understand.
14:49
But I said, I just want you to know that your grandkids go to a
14:53
church like ours in Florida. All of your children are not in
14:57
an independent Baptist Church. I said, so please know that, you
15:01
know, I really do believe that, that there's something you're
15:04
missing if you leave, just something you're going to
15:06
regret. Would you at least give me 6
15:08
more months and just just pray through this thing?
15:11
And they said, OK, we will. So they stayed six more months
15:14
and they're here today. Graz is 82.
15:18
His wife has dementia. I'm still their pastor.
15:21
That's been 10 years. And I'm going to get to bury him
15:24
one day if I don't die first. And, and in fact, I told him
15:27
that at lunch. I said, Raz, who's going to bury
15:29
you? Who knows you like I know you.
15:31
Who's going to preach your funeral like I could.
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He's like, yeah, you got a point there, preacher?
15:35
He goes, he goes, I hate it. I'm I think he must have been
15:38
like 72 at the time. I said 60.
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He's probably 72 because he's 82 now.
15:42
You know, stories like that. I've got 1000 like that.
15:45
That's great. I love it.
15:46
And as we think through that, when you left the independent
15:51
fundamental Baptist and I've came to champion or gospel light
15:55
in 2020 because it was during COVID you you moved teen Rev
16:00
from. Gatlinburg Wait, you came when
16:03
20? 2020, you moved Teen Teen
16:07
Revolution from Gatlinburg to Hot Springs.
16:10
And I brought like, we were just shut down.
16:12
No one was doing anything. And I said we're we're just
16:15
going to go do something. And I had like 20 teenagers show
16:17
up during COVID and it was awesome.
16:19
We stayed in the dorms. So I began to see, man, you got
16:23
a black wall, you got lights, you got a drums.
16:26
Like I was just blown away. Like what's going on here?
16:28
So your transition and we haven't talked.
16:31
We mean you had these talks. I've talked with with Mark and
16:33
other guys there. What what was what was the
16:37
reason you went to the SBC? That's sort of the the the
16:41
transition we're going to look at here.
16:43
Let me there's the Presbyterians, their their air
16:46
on baby baptism, paedo baptism. There's some other theological
16:54
things that are different. There's some other good
16:55
denominations out there. What was it about the SBC?
16:59
Was it a theological issue? Was it a practical issue?
17:02
What prompted you to go that way?
17:05
It probably started with Adrian Rogers just cuz I was so moved
17:11
by his teachings, his message, his disposition and I started
17:18
following and I went to his funeral in 2000.
17:22
If I'm not mistaken, it was 2000 and well, I may be wrong.
17:29
I don't want I want to say it's 2004 that I went to his funeral
17:33
and I remember no, it was what after that because 2005 when we
17:39
started champion. So it must have been 2014.
17:42
I don't remember. But anyway, I apologize for not
17:44
knowing that exact date, but I went to his funeral and, and
17:49
heard they, they played a video about the history of Adrian
17:53
Rogers. And a lot of it had to do with
17:55
his stand for conservativism within the Southern Baptist
18:00
Convention. And I'm sure you've heard that
18:01
story. If you've been a Southern
18:02
Baptist, you, you know, that was a kind of an awakening in the
18:06
SPC movement that was brought on by by conservatives like Adrian
18:11
Rogers. So I began to become attracted
18:13
to his leadership, which introduced me to the Southern
18:16
Baptist world. And so for probably the last
18:20
five years that I was independent Baptist, I was
18:23
already fellowshipping with, with Southern Baptist pastors.
18:27
It would be, I didn't know anything other than being an
18:31
independent Baptist other than Adrian Rogers.
18:34
So I got introduced to it. And then I went up to Rogers
18:39
and, and, and again and talk to talk to Ronnie.
18:43
And I said, Ronnie, and he really helped me.
18:45
I mean, we have Starbucks. Never forget it.
18:47
I never forget he spent six hours with me. 6 And this was
18:52
the future president of the SBC and he wasn't the president yet,
18:55
but he ended up, I said, Ronnie, well, do you think it would be
19:00
wise for me to become an SBC? He said, Eric, let me tell you 5
19:03
reasons why, 5 reasons, and he gave me 5 reasons why.
19:07
And they were all powerful reasons, I mean.
19:09
Ronnie always has five. Yeah, always 5.
19:12
He was always five. He had A5 playing vision for
19:15
2025, like he had whenever he would talk at SBC.
19:19
It was always 5. Like Mark Devers, always 9.
19:22
He's always 5. These guys just have their
19:23
numbers. They got their numbers and one
19:26
of those reasons was the networking, he said.
19:29
Eric, look, the networking is invaluable.
19:32
Look, we don't have we don't, we don't require a look at your
19:37
financials. We don't care about your
19:39
properties. We don't ask to see your bylaws.
19:42
You've just got to sign the Baptist faith and message and
19:44
you get 45,000 friends the day you sign.
19:49
You know, he that was what he's telling me, you know, and I'm
19:51
like, really? So you guys don't like own our
19:53
church property. Somebody said if you become a
19:55
Southern Baptist that the SBC convention.
19:58
Oh, he goes, Eric, I've heard that a million times.
20:00
He goes, I don't know. Of course, all my independent,
20:03
independent Baptist friends though.
20:04
But you know, it's like signing your life away to become a
20:06
Southern Baptist. You know, I didn't sign one
20:08
thing. I just sent 100 bucks into the.
20:11
To the cooperative program, you know for a year and and now of
20:13
course we give thousands but so here's what I did and you'll
20:19
appreciate this again. Here's my Brett here's my not
20:22
decisive way of doing things more more massaging things.
20:26
So I said, I told our elders, we're going to go on a six month
20:29
journey with the Southern Baptist Convention six months
20:32
and we're going to make a decision as a church after six
20:34
months. And I announced it to the church
20:35
that I said we were, we were we were already an elder LED church
20:39
by this time. This was 2018.
20:41
So I said, we're going to go on a six month journey beginning
20:44
with a trip all of our elders to Little Rock to meet with with
20:49
Sonny. Oh my goodness, got about his
20:53
last name and all of the leadership that he was the
20:55
executive director, Sonny Tucker, Sonny Tucker.
20:57
So we get to to Little Rock. They give us 3 or 4 hours, they
21:01
take us to lunch, take care of us, answer every question we've
21:05
got. And I said, OK, boys, we're on
21:07
our are you guys good so far? Yeah, I think we should take the
21:10
next step. I said OK, So I called Little
21:12
Rock. I said, can you send me a guy
21:13
down that will teach 6 consecutive weeks in our church
21:19
on what it means to be a part of the Southern bad convention?
21:21
So he would drive down and I would not do it inside the the
21:24
church building because I didn't think that many people would
21:26
come. And they and I was right.
21:27
I mean, nobody really cared. I was just, I mean, most, most
21:31
people in our church by now weren't independent fundamental
21:35
Baptists, but, but there were some.
21:37
And I wanted to care for those 50 or 60 that were left that
21:41
were, had heard that to be an SBC member was to, to, to just
21:45
completely, you know, deny your faith.
21:50
So that guy came down, I can't remember his name.
21:53
He's still a part of it to me. He's awesome.
21:55
And then, and then we started going through the Baptist faith
21:58
and message and it was great. So at six months, I had Sonny
22:04
Tucker come and preach on a Sunday morning and we voted.
22:07
Now we were packed. By then, church was packed.
22:10
And get this, this is pretty impressive actually.
22:13
After six months of teaching, training, informing everything,
22:18
we voted on a Sunday morning after Sonny's message 100% to
22:24
become an SBC church. That one negative vote.
22:27
Nobody left, no independent bat. Mark was with me all the way.
22:32
You know, So Long story short, that's how we did it.
22:35
It was a process. It began with a conversation
22:38
with Ronnie Floyd. It led to six months of learning
22:43
about the SBC and then a vote on a Sunday morning.
22:45
So I, man, I have no, I talked to the Arkansas Baptist
22:50
Foundation this morning the, the president of the foundation
22:52
about, because we, we just took over another campus on Park Ave.
22:56
and, and they had some money in an account that they're going to
22:59
send to us. And I was just talking with him
23:00
and telling him how we're doing. And I tell you, I am so blessed
23:04
to be in the SBC. And not because it has no
23:07
problems or controversies or but I love it because of the the
23:12
overwhelming unity that you sense amongst at least most SBC
23:19
churches, especially in Arkansas.
23:21
But I do believe even nationwide missions brings us together and
23:27
you know, with all of our issues and problems, you can still get
23:30
10,000 delegates every year in a building to at least say we we
23:35
not all alike, but we all agree that the gospel is, is number 1.
23:40
So. Yeah, I'm sure if you had a made
23:43
a vote to say, hey, we're going to paint the back of the wall
23:45
the church black, it wouldn't have got 100% no.
23:50
No, no, that would not have gotten and that did not get
23:53
100%. Yes, we, we, we're not going to
23:55
get 100% on that. But no, yeah, it's great.
23:58
The question is what kind of opposition or consequences, if
24:02
any, did you face during your transition to the SBC, either in
24:07
your church or personally? Yeah, I would say the
24:10
consequences that I faced for the most part were outside of
24:15
the church missionaries, You know, anybody that we supported
24:22
that was independent Baptist, Literally they would call us and
24:25
say we don't want your money anymore because you're an SBC
24:28
church. Those were consequences.
24:29
And I lost some friends over that.
24:31
And again, I understood. I, I never, I, I honestly have
24:36
never tried to argue my way or out of those kinds of to me,
24:41
people have to figure things out and you know, it's I'm not if
24:45
they ask me a question, I'll answer it.
24:47
But if they call me and say you're in you're Southern
24:50
Baptist church, we don't want your money anymore.
24:52
You know, it's dirty money to us.
24:54
I'm like, OK, that's the way you feel.
24:56
I'm sorry. You know, they're not asking me
24:57
how I feel or if we are they're just so that would happen.
25:02
I lost meetings and you got to realize with with me and and
25:04
preaching out. You know, I was AII used to
25:08
preach out 5060 * a year. Of course I was losing my
25:12
family. When I say that, I don't mean
25:13
literally all the brink of divorce and like I just mean I
25:17
wasn't home enough for that to be sustained over a period of
25:20
time. I would have lost my family.
25:22
My I'm I'm convinced of it. You know, it was unhealthy for
25:25
me to do what I was doing, but when I got to where I was
25:29
managing my traveling much better and traveling a couple of
25:33
times a month, that went down to probably one time a month, I
25:39
lost quite a few churches that were still having the end when
25:43
we became a Southern Baptist church.
25:45
So I would say this to you, Brett, The consequences were it
25:49
was for some, for some, it would have been the straw that broke
25:52
the camel's back. But locally, zero, no opposition
25:57
locally, no opposition within the church, no opposition in the
26:01
college because we had already lost everything by then.
26:06
I mean, it was I, I had already reached a point where I'm, I'm
26:09
on an island and I've got these SBC friends around town, but I'm
26:16
not an SBC church in it. And again, I'm not an SBC church
26:20
by conviction. That's not why I'm an SBC
26:23
church. I'm an SBC church because of the
26:25
fellowship and the networking and the missions.
26:27
And it's just a great tool. It's like being a part of the
26:31
Chamber of Commerce. I mean, whatever.
26:33
I mean, it's, it's, it's not, there's nothing in writing that
26:37
that makes me that creates this loyal.
26:41
We don't, we don't tell people in our town gospel light, a
26:43
Southern Baptist church. You know, we don't do that it
26:45
we're gospel light, You know, somebody asks me, are you a
26:48
Southern Baptist church? The answer is yes, but it's not
26:51
like we advertise that as some label that we're proud of.
26:55
It's no, We're we're just proud to to be Christ follower.
26:58
That's it. So anyway, I I'll I'll leave
27:03
that answer like that. Yeah, you're not.
27:05
You're probably not gaining too many members by just saying
27:07
we're Southern Baptist Church. No, this, it it helps them
27:10
understand that they are familiar with Baptist, the
27:13
Baptist faith, the message. That's what we affirm.
27:14
OK, You affirm these things, we can fellowship.
27:17
Yeah. I love it.
27:18
Love it's great thing. It gets me a convention with
27:20
these churches that put Southern Baptist Church in their name.
27:25
Yeah, no, I don't get it either. It doesn't make it that that's
27:29
that's strange. That is strange to me.
27:31
But again, in their defense, you know, that was a long time ago
27:36
and and it's tough to change once you've got it in there
27:38
because you've got money involved, you've got deacons and
27:42
high we've, we've experienced that, you know, in some of these
27:45
campuses that we've started. So yeah.
27:47
So as as many people have have left the IFB, myself, Brett,
27:52
John, list goes on and on of people that we can talk to and
27:55
we can say that they've wrestled with, we like to use the term
27:59
disillusionment. The the, the glass wall that was
28:03
in front of us finally broke. We saw what was behind it.
28:05
The doubts began to come in. What advice would you give to
28:09
those that are considering leaving but they feel stuck?
28:13
Yeah. All identities wrapped up in it.
28:15
They're they're preaching, they're brothers, they're all
28:18
the everything they've ever known is in it.
28:20
They feel stuck, but they know they don't belong.
28:23
They know this isn't right. They know that the the legalism
28:26
is tearing their families apart. They know that this is something
28:28
that is detrimental to their their family, their church and
28:31
everything, but they feel like there's no way out of it.
28:34
How would you counsel someone in that?
28:37
Yeah. So you're talking about an
28:39
independent Baptist that feels there's no way out.
28:44
Yeah, Well, I meet them all the time and I counsel them all the
28:48
time. There's obviously different.
28:50
I say it like this, not to make an, not to make an excuse, but
28:53
just to give one answer. There's different levels of
28:58
answer I give, you know, but to give a balanced one versus an
29:03
extreme, you know, I, I respect the fact that for some it is
29:14
well, I wish I could mention the name right now because it would
29:15
help so much, but I don't think I need to, but I don't think it
29:18
would be helpful, especially since this is a podcast.
29:20
But I'm thinking of one dear friend of mine that comes here
29:23
often and he comes, he loves me. We're tight.
29:25
He comes to the church, he has family in the church, so he
29:27
comes here, but he has a very high profile father and it's
29:32
independent Baptist and he's told me so I don't think I could
29:35
ever do it, he said, but Eric, there's things, the reasons why
29:39
I would like to do it. And I've said, look brother,
29:42
here's the thing, you know, you've got to be if you're not,
29:47
the answer is not becoming a Southern Baptist.
29:49
The answer is being free. It's being free.
29:52
It's being free to follow Jesus the way God has LED you to
29:55
follow Jesus. Now, if that is in this to the
29:58
Southern Baptist Church Convention, you need to do it,
30:01
but it doesn't sound like it needs to be in your situation.
30:04
If it would create division, if it would have caused your kids
30:07
not to have a grandfather or grandmother, I, I advise you
30:11
against that, that that I didn't pay that price at all.
30:15
I mean, I lost friends, but I lose family.
30:17
If you're going to lose family, then what I encourage you to do
30:20
is follow Jesus and, and, and realize that there are going to
30:27
be conversations that you're going to have to have with with
30:31
with your family that certain things, for instance, one on the
30:36
King James issue, this particular guy said, I, I've
30:38
learned that I can, I can talk to my dad about that issue.
30:42
You know, So I've usually, I guess my counsel to to people
30:48
who are in desperate situations that were that would result in
30:52
separation from their family. I don't OK, I'm thinking of
30:56
another guy that has now this guy actually, I will say this.
31:00
He does work for for a high profile college independent
31:05
Baptist pastor. His he's, he's totally lines up
31:11
with where you and I would be James, but he married a wife who
31:15
does not she, she, she cannot see it his way.
31:18
She, she loves him. She, she's OK with him being OK
31:23
with things that she's not OK with.
31:25
But she, she, she told him, she says, I don't think I could ever
31:29
attend to church other than this one.
31:31
And I told him I said, look, I I don't think I would for the sake
31:35
of just standing up for what you believe in, leave your wife or
31:39
lose your family. I believe I would just keep on
31:42
living and loving and serving Jesus and having conversations,
31:47
healthy hard conversations with your family that will lead to
31:52
prayerfully a change in heart. So I guess it's, it's it's a
31:58
tough question, James, because there's so many conversations
32:01
I'm having right now with guys. I mean like dozens with
32:04
different situations. And my prayer is that one day
32:07
they would be set free completely.
32:09
But it's difficult. It's difficult sometimes.
32:12
I mean, like for me, I'm a Roman Catholic.
32:15
I mean, I, you know, my Catholic family didn't understand why I
32:18
was an independent fundamental Baptist.
32:19
So it was like they looked at my changes as, man, we're glad your
32:23
wife can finally wear pants and you know, you can finally take
32:26
your tie off on. So they were happy for me.
32:28
But for some it might mean, it might mean you, you don't have
32:33
a, you don't have a father, you don't have a mother, you don't
32:36
have, you know, so I get it. It's there's different levels,
32:39
but I think it all boils down to this communication,
32:42
conversations and a willingness to to just be honest, but not to
32:49
be hateful and arrogant, if that makes sense.
32:51
Yeah. So I think the other side of
32:53
that question that I want to ask is, let's say someone's no
32:56
longer stuck. They feel like that they can
32:58
take that step. They can take that move into the
33:01
right direction. That is more balance for their
33:03
family, for their ministry, for what God's got them to do to
33:06
follow their convictions. What are some steps that you
33:09
would recommend practically or even spiritually that they
33:13
should take? How does how do they navigate
33:15
through that? Or we're, we're in this area and
33:17
we're wanting to move away. How does that look?
33:19
Yeah, that's great. So I think what I've always
33:23
said, it's a principle that I've lived by now for a long time and
33:26
that is live in the tension. Let me explain what I mean by
33:29
that. When we are willing to live in
33:32
the tension of grace and truth, grace and truth, live in that
33:36
tension, understand that it's, it's never, it's never right to
33:41
be just all grace. It's never helpful and healthy
33:45
to be all truth. But when we're willing to blend
33:47
those two to live in that tension in our ministries, in
33:51
our with our families, raising our kids, that requires, that
33:57
requires a, a willingness to desire.
33:59
Look, I don't want I still appreciate my independent
34:02
Baptist heritage. My all five of my kids.
34:06
I've got one special needs, but I'll still say 5 all all of them
34:09
would say, you know, dad's never we've never had dad dad really
34:13
curse his past or talk negative about people on either side or,
34:19
you know, or or or or or or worship a Southern Baptist
34:24
leader. I live in the tension because I
34:27
know that we're all sinners, that there's things on both
34:30
sides of the script that are going to be that are difficult.
34:34
And, and, and we could, we could, we could give reasons why
34:37
we are not this or not that. But when we live in the tension,
34:41
meaning it's, it's, it's, it's not easy.
34:44
Meaning there's difficult conversations, meaning that at
34:47
the end of the day, it requires a lot of time to be balanced.
34:51
It just does. It requires a lot of effort to
34:54
be that it'd be a lot easier just to throw out my hands and
34:56
say, you know what I'm not going to do.
34:58
But I love the fact that we have a large staff here.
35:02
But I, I, I tell them all the time, guys, we, we can't treat
35:07
our preferences like they're, they're the only way or they're
35:10
the best way. We have to understand that the
35:12
reason why we still sing a hammer to around here, it has
35:15
nothing to do with the fact that, you know, we want to be
35:19
old fashioned. It has something to do with
35:22
there are people who appreciate that they appreciate that they,
35:26
they let's respect each other. Let's love each other.
35:28
Let's care for one another enough to where we're willing to
35:31
to have a give and take relationship.
35:34
And so anyway that that would be my answer is, is don't run in
35:43
any direction. Stay in the middle of of stay in
35:49
the balance and in the tension of grace and truth when it comes
35:52
to building a church, building a staff, raising children.
35:55
Stay in that tension. Eric, you've, you've walked us
35:59
through the past and it's been a great journey hearing your
36:03
experiences. But I want to talk about the
36:06
present right now and I want to know what excites you most about
36:10
what God is doing at Gospel light and Champion Christian
36:15
right now. Like what are you most excited
36:17
about today? Oh yeah, I can tell you right
36:22
now we have, I mentioned earlier that the the revival that I was
36:26
in as a faith Baptist Church in Canoga Park, CA, that that youth
36:31
revival that I was a part of, I mentioned.
36:32
I don't know that I've ever been since that day and something
36:36
that was so fascinating until now, there is something going on
36:42
right now. It's like, it's like it almost
36:44
feels as if the prayers that I have prayed for over 30 years
36:49
for God to send revival to Hot Springs and, and to help
36:54
Champion become a global college.
36:57
I'm beginning to see seeds of that coming to pass.
37:00
So Brett, to answer your question, I'll start with the
37:03
college and then I'll say something about the church and
37:05
the school. So the college real quick, we
37:08
have James, it looks like that this year we'll have 800
37:12
students at Champion Christian College.
37:14
We had 160 last year from 160 to 800.
37:17
How well our own campus environment will be about 200,
37:22
our online will be about 600. And how that's happened is we
37:25
have partnered with a dual language track for Brazilians.
37:31
And so we are, we are right now admitting and accepting
37:35
applications to hundreds of Brazilian students that are
37:37
coming to take theology classes from Champion.
37:40
And it has exploded our budget, our finances, our hiring
37:45
process, our facilities, because God has, I remember I read Jerry
37:50
Falwell's biography and Jerry Falwell was at a place where he
37:56
was, his college was going bankrupt.
37:59
You can read it if you've not read by his biography.
38:01
It's fascinating. I love it.
38:03
And, and, and he, he fasted, prayed for 40 days and God sent
38:08
to God by the name of AL Williams to, to write a check
38:11
for $100,000. I mean shoot $100 million and it
38:15
revolutionized on the 40th day of Jerry Falwell's fast the
38:19
future of of and to this day you, you hear people speak about
38:23
that 40 day fast and the miracle check that that totally
38:28
revolutionized the future of Liberty University for which I'm
38:31
a a graduate. I would say for us, it's
38:35
probably this dual language track.
38:37
This has opened up millions of dollars that we would have
38:40
never, never had in our budget. And so we're we're we're on a
38:45
journey right now at the college where we are seeing things come
38:50
to pass because of provision. And it's not these are all
38:54
theological students and they've been on 110 of them more on our
38:58
campus two weeks ago. It was just as fascinating.
39:02
So I'm really excited about champion the growth, the, the,
39:05
the, the fact that we're not just now a, a local, you know,
39:09
campus with kids in the dormitory, but now we're kids
39:12
all over the world and all over the United States Christian
39:15
School. Our our governor is Sarah
39:17
Sanders, formerly Sarah Huckabee, credible governor,
39:21
very, very Christian. She has she has finally been
39:25
able to pass school choice through all of our legislation
39:28
here in Arkansas, which means now you can attend gospel like
39:32
Christian School through what's called resources from the LEARNS
39:35
Act. The LEARNS Act is what she is
39:38
providing every every student and and family in the state of
39:42
Arkansas with monies to attend the school of your choice.
39:46
And so we have now a waiting list a mile long of young people
39:50
and families that are trying to get their kids in the gospel
39:53
like Christian School. It is unbelievable how that's
39:57
changed. We finally are able to be
39:58
competitive in our salaries. I mean, literally my son 10
40:03
years ago made $14,000 to teach in our Christian School.
40:06
And this was the independent Baptist way.
40:08
I mean, you know, this is just we don't pay much and you guess
40:11
what, you don't get much. But we are now able to compete
40:15
with public schools and what we can pay our teachers.
40:18
And it's revolutionized how the hiring process of the quality of
40:23
teacher still Christian, obviously, but it's been, it's
40:26
been incredible church. So three years ago I became
40:32
burdened about SBC churches in Arkansas that are empty.
40:36
I went to the state convention and I heard a guy get up and say
40:40
of the, of the 14179 Southern Baptist churches, he said, I
40:47
think he said 1200 or maybe it was 1100.
40:51
It was over 1000 churches or 100 or less.
40:54
But then he said something astounding.
40:55
He said something like 500 or 600 have less than 20.
41:00
And so I thought, wow, what, what, how are they making it?
41:04
Well, they're not, you know, they're, they're, we had, we
41:06
have, I think a dozen in the, in Garland County.
41:09
So I began to do some research in Garland County as to who
41:12
these churches were and, and why were they, why were they
41:16
settling for 1020 people? And how big are these
41:18
auditoriums? So God opened the door for us to
41:21
have a conversation with Antioch Baptist Church on Sunshine Rd.
41:24
an auditorium that seats 250. And they had eight people.
41:28
And so God allowed us to develop a relationship and we created a
41:32
model that introduced them to what it would look like to
41:35
replant their church, make it a campus of gospel light, but not
41:40
lose the heritage of Antioch because this is what we have
41:44
found. When we pulled the church, even
41:46
though it's just eight people, they all said, we know we're
41:49
dying. We know that if we stay Antioch
41:53
Baptist Church the way it is, it's going to close its doors.
41:56
But we, we don't want Antioch to lose Antioch.
42:00
And if we become gospel light, then where, where does that
42:02
leave me? Antioch.
42:03
And, and we said, well, let's talk about that.
42:04
How can we figure that out? And so we began to create ways
42:08
that Antioch can still live within the life of being a
42:11
replant. For instance, we name our coffee
42:13
shop over there, Antioch Roast. You know, we kept the, the sign
42:17
on the church that says Antioch Baptist Church founded.
42:20
So we, we did a name change. They deeded their property to
42:24
our church. It had on Easter Sunday this
42:26
year, 179 people. It's exploding on Sunshine Rd.
42:30
It's a campus of our church. But we created a model that said
42:37
it's not our way or the highway. There's got to be a way that we
42:40
can, we can, we can merge these two.
42:42
So we did. And then a year ago, Park Place
42:45
Baptist Church, which is a much bigger transition, 750 seat
42:48
auditorium. Bill Clinton, it was his
42:52
childhood home, sang in the choir.
42:53
Historically, Park Place has a huge, a huge reputation in the
42:58
state of Arkansas. But it was down to 20 people.
43:00
Took the pastor out a year ago, had a great conversation with
43:03
him, but I could tell no go. So I just kept calling about
43:06
every month, Hey, pastor, I love you, how can we help?
43:10
Found out, you know, they couldn't have didn't have enough
43:12
money to mow their lawn, started mowing their lawn, started
43:14
caring for them, loving them, meeting his needs, finding ways
43:18
we could help him personally, 75 years old.
43:21
So finally about four months ago, he said, Eric, look, you
43:25
know, we're about out of money and we're having to make a
43:28
decision as to what to do. And it looks like our only
43:30
option is to have a conversation with you.
43:31
So I told him, look, this is the model, this is what we can do.
43:35
How can he said, but I don't want Park Place.
43:37
I don't think our people would ever agreed to do it without
43:39
Park Place in the name. And so I went back to our
43:42
elders. I said, look, let's talk.
43:44
So we decided on gospel light at Park Place because it's on a
43:47
street called Park Ave. So it made sense.
43:50
So they voted a month ago to, to, to merge their congregation
43:56
with ours. So that added a fourth campus
43:58
because we've got our Spanish campus as well.
44:01
So I am so excited because I feel like we've got some
44:03
momentum here That and, and, and I had about five years ago, I
44:07
felt like not an epiphany, but I felt as if God said, Eric, you
44:12
know, I know I didn't let you pastor at a large city, but I'm
44:15
going to give you 10 campuses in Garland County.
44:18
So we're on our 4th campus. I'm praying for six more and
44:22
we're asking God to give us these empty churches.
44:25
They're, they're debt free. You know, this was a $3,000,000.
44:29
The other I think Sunshine Rd. was a million and a half dollar
44:32
campus, beautiful campus, Sun Fellowship, Pauls and gymnasiums
44:36
and parking lots. It's just fascinating.
44:38
And so we're excited, man, I, I am so excited because I, I think
44:43
that I'm onto something. That's what I want to have a
44:45
meeting with the head of the SBC in the state to say is there.
44:50
And I know, James, you've experienced some of this, you
44:52
know, in your, in your, but is there a way that we can have
44:57
conversations with churches that it takes a while to transition,
45:02
but that there is not a my way or the highway attitude.
45:05
It's more of a, how can we keep the heritage of your church but
45:09
transition into a new culture? And it, it takes, it takes a lot
45:14
of massaging without, without dishonesty and deception, a lot
45:19
of massaging and conversations. But it's so we are now one
45:22
church on 4 campuses. We're back up to averaging close
45:25
to 1300 a Sunday and it's, it's been, it's been amazing.
45:29
So I, I feel like I'm back, you know, size wise, we're about
45:33
what we were at our peak as an independent Baptist.
45:35
We're just having to do it a different way.
45:37
No bus ministry, just campuses, you know, it's a, this is
45:40
different, it's a different method, same gospel, so.
45:44
Yeah. Two things that I want to
45:45
interject is we've got a guy in our North Carolina convention,
45:49
his name is Mark Gray. I can get you his contact and he
45:52
is over what we call legacy churches in North Carolina,
45:55
churches that have a huge legacy that are, have been there for
45:59
many, many years in their community, but they're dying and
46:01
they don't know how to change. And so they come in, he comes in
46:05
as a consultant and says, hey, there's another church over
46:08
here, a Gospel light or a Pleasant Grove that'll come in
46:11
and help replant your church. And one fun thing that they've
46:14
done is they've taken like 2A corner of like the a hallway and
46:19
they've done like Park Place and all the history and they'll put
46:23
pictures at the corner divide. The other way is the new church
46:28
that's taken over and that is replanting it.
46:30
So it's it's a vision of where we were at, but where we're
46:32
going. And so all the people that were
46:34
there and the people get to come get to see Bill Clinton came
46:38
here, all these people came here.
46:39
But yet there's an advantage to go forward and you're not
46:41
abandoning that legacy that they did.
46:43
That's it. The money that was given, I'd
46:46
love to. Talk to him.
46:48
Yeah, he's a great guy. I have lunch with him probably
46:50
every once every six months, just hanging out and talking.
46:52
And then #2 I have something else I was going to say I can't
46:58
remember now. Anyway, it'll come back to me #2
47:02
But let me ask you this if you could.
47:04
I sort of like to do this thought experiment every once in
47:06
a while, even with me and Ally. We'll do this, and we'll sort of
47:09
go back and we'll think about some of our past, some of our
47:12
old self. And the question is, is if you
47:15
could go back to 20 year old Eric just left house, you're at
47:20
Canoga Park, CA, you're about to plant Gospel light and Hot
47:24
Springs. You're just now coming to the
47:26
ministry, you're transitioning. What would you say to that 20
47:30
year old Eric? You know, I've always, I've
47:35
always known that as I've, as I've grown, the area of my life
47:41
that I wished I would have been. I wish, I wish I would have done
47:45
better in if you're referring to what would I change or what
47:47
would I say to that person? It would be this.
47:50
Listen, I, I don't think I was a good listener when I was
47:55
younger. I think I was, I was moving so
47:57
fast that I wasn't really listening to the voices that
48:04
we're speaking into my life. And I, I, I, I think I missed
48:08
out on a lot of input and, and, and wisdom because I was such a
48:14
strong personality, such a mover and a shaker, such a salesman,
48:19
if you will, which was all good things.
48:21
I mean, things that benefited me in, in ministry.
48:24
But I, I think I've learned to listen, to stop to, to, to
48:31
listen to what someone has to say and not respond, just pray,
48:36
listen. I feel like if I would have done
48:39
more of that from 20 to 30, that I would be in a better place
48:44
than I am right now. And I and I know that my journey
48:47
did not include that trait. OK, it was lacking that, but you
48:51
asked the question, so I'm answering it.
48:53
And I think without without any question, and it's great advice.
48:57
It really is. I've had the chance to tell all
49:00
my kids this, you know, and I hope they won't.
49:02
I don't think they've made they're making that that same
49:04
deficiency is, is to listen, listen to the the advice, the
49:10
wisdom, the contrast, the opposite, the same.
49:13
Listen to all of it. Let it let it let it influence
49:17
your life in ways that are going to be positive and also ways
49:22
that are going to that are going to be able to keep you, you
49:25
know, from making mistakes. So I think the 20 year old Eric
49:29
should have been a much better listener.
49:31
I think I just, I moved so fast, James, that I think I, I could
49:37
have probably made the transition into who I am today
49:42
at age 30 instead of at age, you know, 45 or 50, if I would have
49:48
listened, you know. Yeah, the other thing came to
49:51
me, one class that I took from you that I've never forgotten,
49:55
and it was right before Brett gives his last question and we'd
49:58
be done was by concentric circles of concerns.
50:02
Yeah. Any principles or few methods
50:06
may change, but principals never do.
50:07
And when you when you were talking about earlier about
50:10
steps that you would take, you know, changing some methodology
50:13
and helping churches go that way, it reminded me of that
50:16
because methods are many. We can do things, bus routes, we
50:19
can do Sunday school, we can do small groups, we can do home
50:21
groups. We can do whatever you want.
50:22
They're going to be tons of methods.
50:24
As long as the principal what a Jack house say, keep the main
50:27
thing, the main thing, right? We got to continue to keep the
50:30
main thing, the main thing, the gospel as the gospel.
50:33
Right. Amen.
50:34
Love it, right? Well, Eric, just a little
50:38
context to this last question. We want to give you an
50:42
opportunity to speak directly to our listeners.
50:46
Now before I I give you that opportunity, I want to read you
50:49
just a little bit of our mission statement.
50:51
The mission statement of the podcast is the Four Freedom
50:54
Podcast exists to bring the message of Galatians 51 to those
50:59
in the body of Christ that have been trapped in the legalism of
51:02
the IFB. It's our goal to expose
51:05
legalism, help those who have been abused, encourage them in
51:09
God's grace. Now that's our listener base.
51:12
And I want to give you an opportunity to give them a final
51:16
thought. Give them some encouragement.
51:19
We've got listeners who are still in the IFB who are
51:22
transitioning out, who are out now and, and looking for
51:26
something. And I just want you to give you
51:29
one last opportunity to give them some encouragement.
51:33
Well, thank you, man. I, I will, I'm honored to be
51:36
able to do that. And, and again, as I answer this
51:39
last question, thank the both of you.
51:41
I think you've done a great job with this interview.
51:44
I've enjoyed it. I, I've, I feel as if I
51:48
benefited myself that I'm not just given answers, but that I
51:52
have also received, you know, the, the, the way you've asked
51:58
the answers and, and cultivated this conversation has encouraged
52:02
me that there are some young men like yourselves, man, that are,
52:06
that are really standing in the gap.
52:07
And, and this, there's a bright future for the, for the work of
52:11
God as we move forward. And so thank you guys for this.
52:14
It's been amazing as I, as I think about your question, Brad,
52:17
and, and your listener base and how you framed the mission and
52:20
in response to this answer. You know, there's, there's
52:25
always things that I look back on and I would say this to every
52:28
listener. That things that that may be a
52:32
bad memory or a situation that I could choose to continue to, to,
52:39
to pick at or to refer back to or to live in or to complain
52:43
about or to even I'll say it, you know, the gossip about, you
52:48
know, because that's, that's, that's something I feel like is
52:50
it happens often times when we get together and, and we, we
52:55
sort of rehash the past and there's a lot of mistakes that
52:59
they made by, by people that we love and people that we, we
53:02
respected, people that we followed.
53:05
I get all that. And but what has helped me to
53:09
shape my attitude and my vision and my, my, my positivity, if
53:17
you will, if you know my optimism about ministry is that
53:21
I don't look back. I feel like that there is a
53:24
principle in Scripture that is often caught by Paul, by Jesus.
53:28
And of course it was taught by Paul.
53:30
He got it from Jesus. And no man putting his hand to
53:34
the pilot and looking back, Paul said, I, I, I, he talked about,
53:38
he presses towards the mark for the prize.
53:41
I think what I would say to your listeners is as independent
53:43
Baptist, yes, we have a pass and we can look back at that and see
53:48
so much garbage and trash and problems and issues and, but and
53:53
and and and prayerfully there's also some good things we can
53:56
see. OK.
53:57
But I think if we live our lives with a I'm going to follow Jesus
54:02
forward. I'm going to follow him forward.
54:04
I'm not going back and rehashing and re talking and remembering
54:10
and re. I'm going to look forward, yes,
54:13
I, I've got some things that I regret or some things, some
54:16
people that I particularly don't really care to have listen to
54:21
another sermon they preach. You know, I've got that too, by
54:23
the way, everybody. But I, I feel as if, if we would
54:26
have an attitude of, of, of, of Scripture that is we're looking
54:31
forward to the coming of Christ. We're looking forward to the
54:34
next soul. That said, we're looking forward
54:36
to the next great book. That's going to be we're looking
54:38
forward to to the next to say, I think that would help all of us
54:43
to kind of as I see it, one of the negatives that I see in some
54:48
podcast in some and, and, and some of the issues that people
54:53
seem to have is that they can't seem to let go of that because
54:58
it's kind of become part of their identity versus
55:02
recognizing that don't allow the past to become your identity.
55:08
Allow what God is doing now, what he's work, you know, the
55:11
the work he's doing now in your life.
55:14
So for me, that's helped me a lot.
55:16
You know, I love it. We put it on the podcast like.
55:20
This everyone comes to a fork in the road and they either choose
55:23
to live in the bitterness and the hate, or they choose to live
55:26
in grace and comfort that God gives us.
55:29
We when we go to the route of bitterness, we live in the cycle
55:32
of that. And so it's that fork in the
55:35
road moment. Where are we going to go?
55:36
What are we going to do? And it's a great thing, Eric.
55:39
Thanks. So yeah, by no means on that
55:41
right there, just to know. I'm not dismissing the hurt, the
55:44
pain. I get it.
55:45
Yeah, I don't. I don't want anybody to think
55:47
that at all. It's not like I'm being over
55:49
positive because sometimes I can be.
55:50
I get it. I mean, sometimes, you know, I
55:52
could be over optimistic. But I am saying that very
55:55
carefully and gingerly and lovingly.
55:57
Just saying what you just said. James, that fork is a very
56:00
important moment in all of our lives.
56:02
You've been there, Brett. You've been there.
56:03
I've been there. All right.
56:04
I'm sorry. You can close it out.
56:06
You're great, man. Thanks for coming home.
56:07
We appreciate all you've. Done even for me and my family
56:11
and Eric, Brett and his life. And I appreciate you being a
56:15
friend in many different times that I've had, and I always
56:18
appreciate those. Texts and calls.
56:20
We. We.
56:20
Have together and so until next time, to God be the glory.
56:24
Yes Sir, great things he has found.
56:26
My new. Name found.
56:29
That good grace found that healing, and the tears fell down
56:34
my face when I found my beginning.
56:37
It has no ending. I found that Second chance found
56:38
my best. Friend found my forgiveness.
56:40
Found my. Happiness.
56:41
I've been singing. Ever since I found my feet on me
56:48
all. Thanks for listening to the Four
57:00
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
57:03
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57:06
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57:10
Be sure to join us next time for the Four Freedom Podcast.