Latest / Kenny Wallace Media / Joe Gibbs Has 2 Shots at a Cup Championship | NASCAR Press Conference
Transcript
- 0:00Coach Gibbs, thank you so much for joining us today.
- 0:02I really appreciate it. Obviously on good terms to be
- 0:07able to chat on championship four week for you with Denny
- 0:10Hamlin and Chase Briscoe going this weekend to Phoenix in hopes
- 0:14of capturing the NASCAR Cup Series championship.
- 0:18Obviously last night you guys had Christopher Bell not
- 0:22advancing. So I know you have mixed
- 0:23emotions most likely, but can you just tell us what the last
- 0:27few weeks have felt like for your organization?
- 0:30Well, I felt like kind of going into yesterday it's, it's been,
- 0:36you know, an outstanding year for us.
- 0:38But in pro sports, you can have some tough Mondays.
- 0:43And we're having 1 today because, you know, yesterday we
- 0:48hate it with the the 20 kind of missing being in the playoffs
- 0:53there. And it was just one of those
- 0:55days where, hey, you got to give credit to the Henry cars did a
- 0:59fantastic job and you got to give them credit on a day like
- 1:03that. But the way everything worked
- 1:05out for us, our playoff schedule is so tough.
- 1:10The 20th had a heck of a year, but we just wound up yesterday.
- 1:17We just weren't quite good enough to get in.
- 1:19So that part of it is a downer. But we have two cars that
- 1:25obviously to be in the final four is a thrill for us.
- 1:29You got the 11 with Denny and Chris Gayle and all the emotion
- 1:37and stories that goes with that car, and then you got our first
- 1:42year car with Chase and James just having a heck of a year
- 1:51with the 19. So we got two stories there.
- 1:54We're really excited about that. It's just today's been tough to
- 1:59get back excited. Yeah, Coach Denny has had a few
- 2:04mechanical issues over the last 5-6 weeks.
- 2:07Do you have any concerns or doing anything additional for
- 2:12quality control? No, we've been on that all
- 2:14morning. We've all been got the parts
- 2:18out, looked at everything. And I think issues with the
- 2:22motors are always concerning. You never want that to happen.
- 2:27But I think we're kind of have understood where we are and what
- 2:32those parts were and have made adjustments for sure.
- 2:38And really those parts will not be in the cars for this weekend.
- 2:42So I feel good about that. And as What do you think Denny
- 2:48has learned from the championships that have slipped
- 2:51away that will help him this time?
- 2:55Well, I think he's the the experience, as you know, in pro
- 2:59sports, that's something that you just can't teach someone.
- 3:07They've got to experience it and I think Denny over these years,
- 3:12sixty wins and and being here for this amount of time, I think
- 3:18you listen to him in meetings and he really with the
- 3:23experience and everything is really good.
- 3:26I think for the young drivers that are in that room because he
- 3:30sees things just as a as a veteran would.
- 3:34He's been through almost everything.
- 3:36He kind of understands it. He works extremely hard in the
- 3:40same. But his preparation and
- 3:42everything, I think a veteran guy like, like him, it's just
- 3:47it's hard to, you know, that kind of experience really means
- 3:53a lot. So hopefully our sport is so
- 3:56hard, it shows and how hard our sport is.
- 4:00You got to be able to get to the final, final four, which we've
- 4:05done with Denny. Now you got one race and you
- 4:09know you got to make it happen. Coach 2 drivers from Joe Gibbs
- 4:13Racing 2 drivers from Hendrick Motorsports in the Championship
- 4:164. It's the second time in four
- 4:18years so this is nothing new for you and Rick Hendrick, but
- 4:20what's it like for you going up against Rick Hendrick in the
- 4:25Championship 4? You know Jeff Gordon was talking
- 4:27last night about how you and Rick exchanged messages a lot
- 4:30just as friends rather than competitors.
- 4:32What? What's this like?
- 4:33I guess facing the best team in NASCAR in terms of playoff
- 4:37victories, both as competitor and his friend.
- 4:41Yeah, what it's like, I don't like it.
- 4:43OK, yesterday's a good example. I got to give Rick and his crew
- 4:50over there, the 24 and the five and the 9, this everybody over
- 4:56there, 48, everybody was fast. And it shows you what a quality
- 5:01organization and how good they really are.
- 5:05And so no, I, I would, I would prefer to go against somebody
- 5:09that's not very good. The problem is that doesn't
- 5:12happen at NASCAR. And so to get to the Final four
- 5:16is just so hard. And so now we got one race, we
- 5:21know what we're up against, somebody that's really, really
- 5:24good. Two cars in there for them, two
- 5:27for us. And so hopefully this will be
- 5:29good for the fans and everybody. And excitement probably won't be
- 5:34good for me. I'll be so nervous and uptight
- 5:38about it. But you know, to get the Final
- 5:42Four is a thrill and we're thrilled to be in it.
- 5:44It's great for our sponsors and our entire organization.
- 5:49You got to give Rick and them to solve the credit in the world.
- 5:54And a quick follow up about Rick Coach, if you can think back,
- 5:58I'm sure you've told us 1000 times, but you can think back 30
- 6:00some years. How instrumental was he in
- 6:04helping you get into NASCAR? What did he do for you to get a
- 6:07team started in NASCAR and and how important was it just to to
- 6:11being in the sport? It it was really, really
- 6:14important for us. And so when I started thinking
- 6:19about trying, but you got to remember I was a football coach.
- 6:22I didn't have anything and so when both boys, JD and Coy, we
- 6:28talked about getting in racing, could we do that?
- 6:33Could you do something in NASCAR?
- 6:36Then everybody referred me to Rick and thank goodness he was a
- 6:41big Redskin fan and got him to a football game.
- 6:45Get him to tell you that story where his shoes came apart on
- 6:49the sideline and he almost lost his toes.
- 6:53It was so cold. That was the story.
- 6:55But Rick helped us a lot. He let Jimmie Johnson, his
- 7:00general manager at that time, kind of go with me to a lot of
- 7:05meetings and he just helped and gave advice.
- 7:09And then we started off originally leasing motors and
- 7:14everything from Rick. So it was a huge deal for us,
- 7:18you know, for us to be able to get off the ground.
- 7:20Rick played a huge role in that and I just really appreciate
- 7:25that. Thanks a lot.
- 7:26Hey, Joe, you know, a year ago at this time, you're coming off
- 7:30the end of the season where you guys didn't win the last half of
- 7:33the season, didn't have a team in the Championship four and
- 7:36Cup. What, what was that period like
- 7:40and why did you feel, what was it that made you feel like you
- 7:44had to make the big change with Gabe Hart to change the
- 7:48direction of this organization to where now you you've had this
- 7:53great successful season and and having two cars in the
- 7:56Championship 4. Yeah, Destin, I think for us,
- 8:01it's never just me making big decisions.
- 8:05And so our team, we kind of all got together.
- 8:08We got people that really care about JGR and have spent their
- 8:14most of their working lives here for sure.
- 8:17And so it's a team effort. And so when we talked about it,
- 8:22we laid out some things where we felt like we could really make
- 8:25an improvement. And so that was one of them for
- 8:29sure, getting Chris move him to be in the competition director.
- 8:35Then that met Chris Gayle moving over and some other changes that
- 8:39we made here with our four cars. And so, you know, this year to
- 8:45wind up kind of where we are with all of that is been, you
- 8:51know, very rewarding, I think for all of us.
- 8:54But you're constantly in pro sports.
- 8:56What I've learned, you know, I said the same thing in the NFL,
- 9:01I think pro sports, they, they changed at a rate of about 30% a
- 9:06year. And if you're setting still,
- 9:09you're falling behind. And so you got to be on the
- 9:12forefront of what's taking place.
- 9:16And so we kind of felt like some changes the were needed for us
- 9:22and just appreciate all of our guys and way they fought this
- 9:24year to to get where we are and have the success that we've had.
- 9:29And Joe obviously is spending a lifetime in sports.
- 9:32You understand how so many people look at these athletes or
- 9:36what they can do as superhuman. And it's easy to forget that
- 9:39they are actually human. You've gone through things in
- 9:42your life. Look, Denny Hamlin's going
- 9:45through things with, you know, he's talked a little bit about
- 9:47his father. It's the things with his his
- 9:50race team. What is it that you see in terms
- 9:53of the human side of Denny Hamlin that maybe most people
- 9:57that sitting in the stands don't see or realize of the things
- 10:00that he's going through and what he's trying, what he's over
- 10:04overcoming to try to reach this sport goal as he's dealing with
- 10:08life matters? Well, that you're right.
- 10:11That's man that you know, it's we look at these guys.
- 10:16Very few people can do this. Get in a car, you go 200 miles
- 10:22an hour, compete against somebody and so when you get 1,
- 10:26it's a huge deal for a race team.
- 10:29So for them though to be able to achieve that.
- 10:34And then there is the whole personal side.
- 10:37It's your relationships, everything.
- 10:39I know I've experienced a lot with JD and Coy not being here.
- 10:44And so you go through those emotions and sometimes we have a
- 10:47tendency to forget about that and only think about somebody
- 10:51being an athlete. But there's so much to this.
- 10:55And if you think about Denny, where he is right now with
- 11:00Dennis, his dad and all that the family went through to sacrifice
- 11:05for him, he brings that up all the time.
- 11:08Then everything he's got going at 2311, OK, and then what he's
- 11:13got going with us, you just realize that's a lot.
- 11:18And so I think he's a very unusual person to be able to
- 11:21handle all that. He's also a gifted athlete.
- 11:25So I would say from the time that Denny first came on board,
- 11:31you know, 20 years ago, I think probably where he is today is
- 11:35probably one of the biggest changes that I've seen in a
- 11:38person. And I think a lot of it's
- 11:41because of his family now and Jordan and the kids, you know,
- 11:46there's just, there's just a lot there.
- 11:49And so I think our fans appreciate that because they
- 11:54know a lot about the drivers and certainly our our four guys are
- 11:59totally different. They they got different things
- 12:02that are taking place in their worlds and so you make a good
- 12:05point. Sometimes we have a tendency to
- 12:07forget that, but it plays a major role I think, with great
- 12:13athletes. On the topic of Denny, when,
- 12:17when you have two drivers in the championship, right, I mean, 22
- 12:20opportunities to win a championship.
- 12:21And I, I'm, I'm assuming it'd be like asking to pick your
- 12:25favorite child. But how much of your heart, how
- 12:28sentimentally to try to do this and see Denny again get an
- 12:32opportunity to win a championship?
- 12:34I mean sentimentally, how much are is your heart with him this
- 12:37weekend? Well, you kind of take a look at
- 12:40both of our drivers in the Final four and you know, if I take
- 12:45Chase first, here's somebody I noticed I think yesterday on
- 12:50Sirius radio, they were talking to him about the couch that he
- 12:54slept on for like 2 years while he's trying to get an
- 12:58opportunity in the sport. And to see him, a first year
- 13:01guy, be able to get everything done and he's got done, be on 7
- 13:06poles, won three races to wind up and in the final four.
- 13:10So that's a great story when you think about that.
- 13:14All right, then you, you move over to Denny.
- 13:18Here's somebody that's won 60 times in our sport.
- 13:23All the things that he does now, he's an owner of a race team,
- 13:29OK? He races for us and all he's
- 13:33done over those years, his family, where he is today, when
- 13:36he first came with us all, that's just a huge story.
- 13:40His dad and everything that's taking place there.
- 13:45So it's two definite different stories.
- 13:49And I think for everybody, the only thing that Denny has not
- 13:52claimed is a championship. And so I know everybody asked
- 13:56him about that in every interview.
- 13:58And so if you do that for 20 years, I can tell you there's a
- 14:03burning desire for him to win a championship.
- 14:09This weekend, getting an opportunity to to win a
- 14:12championship. It's been since 2019 since you
- 14:15all have done that. I'm sure you don't need to be
- 14:17reminded of it. Has it?
- 14:19Has it felt that long, Joe? Has it felt like it's been a
- 14:21drought or a slump? What, what?
- 14:23What have these last few years been like?
- 14:25Trying to get back atop the mountain, so to speak.
- 14:28Yeah, I think it seems like it's been forever.
- 14:32I think that's the thing about pro sports.
- 14:34You worked so hard and you get down and with our championship,
- 14:38it goes to the last race and she's just, it's really, really
- 14:44hard. And the other thing, you know,
- 14:47you go 38 weekends, everybody's put everything that they, the,
- 14:52that they, all the work effort and everything they put into
- 14:55preparing our cars. All the people here.
- 14:58It's when you stop and think about it, so many people kind of
- 15:04depend on this. And our big deal is you want to
- 15:07try and win. You know, I don't think we have
- 15:10any of our sponsors that I've ever got that said it's OK just
- 15:14to ride around the back. They they don't want to do that.
- 15:17They want to win. And so that that's obviously the
- 15:22goal up here for everybody. So in this case, you're going to
- 15:27have Rick and his two drivers. You're going to have me and
- 15:31everybody here, Heather, and everybody and our ownership and
- 15:35everybody in management, everybody here at the race, our
- 15:38race, our race shop, our entire team pulling for our two cars
- 15:44this weekend. So it's going to be a huge deal.
- 15:47I think our fans love that. It's the best in the world
- 15:50competing, you know, and one race is it should be really
- 15:56exciting. Can you discuss the parallels
- 15:59between coaching a championship team in the NFL and coaching
- 16:04championship teams in NASCAR and have the, you know, have the
- 16:09parallels grown closer over the course of the evolution?
- 16:13When were you first got here, you had the crew chief and the
- 16:18driver, and now it's kind of blossomed into you've got to
- 16:23have the entire team and special teams, you know, AKA the pit
- 16:27crew has become more important than ever in this sport.
- 16:32Yeah, I, I think the thing, I've kind of said this before, but as
- 16:37far as the two sports, it is kind of amazing how much they
- 16:42are alike in football. You're not going anywhere in
- 16:47football unless you got a great quarterback over here.
- 16:50It's what the driver, OK. And football, you got it.
- 16:54You got to have a coach who knows what's going on.
- 16:57Hopefully you have a great coach over here that becomes crew
- 17:00chiefs. OK.
- 17:02And so the two sports are are are the fact that our pit crew
- 17:08guys, it's almost exactly like football.
- 17:11They have mandatory weight training twice a week.
- 17:14They have mandatory practice. It's all videoed and filmed.
- 17:18They're paid bonuses on pit stops.
- 17:20I mean, the two sports in that way are a lot alike over here.
- 17:25We got a car. And many times that thing will
- 17:28not obey. It doesn't.
- 17:31It doesn't. You can't chew it out or
- 17:33threaten it. OK.
- 17:35But I do think that two sports are a lot alike.
- 17:38My role is totally different, you know, and in football I can
- 17:43make it happen. I was over there, I grew up in
- 17:45it. Technically call plays, make it
- 17:48happen over here. I can't, OK.
- 17:50And so my role over here is totally different.
- 17:52Pick the people, work with the people, try and keep our
- 17:55sponsors happy. And I said my biggest thrill is
- 17:59trying to pay the bills the 1st of every month.
- 18:01So my role here is different. I would say this, the there are
- 18:06a lot of similarities between this sport and the NFL.
- 18:12Those are the only two I've been in, but it's kind of amazing
- 18:16really. And you're trying to win a
- 18:18championship. The one thing that we talked
- 18:20about is different over here, you have four teams.
- 18:23That's a real challenge, really difficult.
- 18:27How do you get four teams to work together?
- 18:30I think the they that NASCAR is really tough from that
- 18:35standpoint and you in your spare time do a lot of motivational
- 18:41speaking. And when I was in Victory Lane
- 18:44at Martinsville with the Hendrick Group, it seemed like
- 18:48they all had a pep rally, you know, talking about loss with
- 18:53the members of Hendrick that they had lost on the plane
- 18:56crash. You know, something about severe
- 18:59loss as well. How can you use certain life
- 19:03lessons as catalysts to motivate your squads down the to the
- 19:09finish line? Yeah, I, I think Rick and I, you
- 19:13know, have talked a lot about that, our boys and the fact that
- 19:20they're not here. And so we've had discussions
- 19:23about that and it's, it's really hard.
- 19:26And so we both have experienced that.
- 19:30Yeah, I'm not not sure as far as motivating factors.
- 19:35I do know that with my two boys and I'm sure with Ricky, you
- 19:40know, their dream was to be a part of racing and the future.
- 19:45And certainly I, I think that's what Rick kind of had planned.
- 19:49That's what I had planned. And sometimes in life, you know,
- 19:54God has a different idea. And so you we're in a totally
- 20:00different place, both of us. But I think also we share a lot
- 20:06of similar heart breaks. So anyway, that's, that's part
- 20:11of our life and that's where we are now.
- 20:13We got, we got all I got my grandkids involved.
- 20:17I got Heather involved. Everything is taking place here.
- 20:20I think my grandkids are a number of them will want to be
- 20:25with the race team and be involved with it.
- 20:27So that's exciting for me. It's not what I the way I
- 20:31thought it would go. But then again, God's plans many
- 20:35times are not ours. Thank you for your time, Coach.
- 20:39You've obviously participated in football playoffs and then the
- 20:43Super Bowl, and you've experienced every iteration of a
- 20:48NASCAR championship format. So I'm curious, have you
- 20:51provided NASCAR any feedback from your standpoint about what
- 20:55direction they should go or what are your feelings overall about
- 20:59this time period we're in right now, thinking about what our
- 21:02future looks like? Yeah, I, I think there's no, I
- 21:06haven't, but I think they've gone about this the right way.
- 21:10If you got a committee, Heather's been on there and a
- 21:14lot of real bright people are thinking about our playoffs and
- 21:19is this the right format for us going forward.
- 21:24The one thing I would say one race is man is it is tough
- 21:30because things can happen to you that they're out of your control
- 21:35and that one race. And so I think they've done a
- 21:38good job. I'll I'll leave that to NASCAR.
- 21:41I hear some rumors about it and I think we'll probably make a
- 21:47change in there if I'm guessing, but I think that'll be something
- 21:52for the future. And what we're focused on right
- 21:57now is the way we do have our championship four, and this is
- 22:03the way NASCAR is, and we're in it and we got two cars in it.
- 22:08This is a thrill when we get here because it is exciting.
- 22:14You got one race to make it happen, but that's the way I
- 22:16look at it. And so we got to find a way.
- 22:19And I'm sure Rick's thinking the same thing.
- 22:22And then with the. Taylor.
- 22:24Winning on Saturday and and Ty's car.
- 22:27You're talking about the future of the company and you know, the
- 22:31way that the family structure is moving forward.
- 22:34Is there something in that dynamic that you've kind of
- 22:38tasked tie with? Trying to learn or.
- 22:42From a team management, like do you have him doing homework at
- 22:45all in terms of what it's like to to run a team in any way?
- 22:49I think he's so consumed with racing right now.
- 22:53That's been his world ever since he was two.
- 22:55He's been on something with wheels and after it.
- 22:59And so I, I think when you're trying to climb the ladder and
- 23:06it is so hard to be successful in racing, I think he's totally
- 23:11focused on that really. And so now I, I think that
- 23:17that's been his whole focus is to try and win and climb a
- 23:23ladder and be a part of NASCAR going forward as a driver.
- 23:28And so, yeah, we haven't other than that he's totally
- 23:31concerned, assumed with that, I can tell you that.
- 23:34You know, you're talking about the parallels to the NFL and
- 23:36NASCAR. As a head coach, a Hall of Fame
- 23:39head coach, you had to mentally prepare your players for that,
- 23:42you know, one game to win a championship.
- 23:45How involved are you with crew chiefs, drivers and and picker
- 23:49members? Just getting them mentally
- 23:50prepared for the task at hand, which is just a one race to to
- 23:53win a championship. I think over here to be able
- 23:58what it's, it's mostly the crew chiefs and they have that close
- 24:03working relationship. They're constantly in the SIM.
- 24:06They're going over thing with their drivers and they're trying
- 24:10to climb the mountain, get it done.
- 24:13And so the crew chiefs over here deserve the credit and and I'm
- 24:18obviously in the background. I'm in the competition meetings
- 24:21and stuff and I share things at different times, but it is over
- 24:26here. I look at the crew chiefs and
- 24:30it's just the same role that I did play in the NFL and they're
- 24:35kind of the motivators. They're the guys that make it
- 24:38happen. They're the guys that make the
- 24:39calls. And so that's a very close,
- 24:43tight knit relationship between drivers and crew chiefs.
- 24:46They really depend on each other.
- 24:48And so this world, those are the guys that make it happen.
- 24:54Over here, it's not as much I'm there certainly around it, care
- 24:59about it, but they're the ones that make it make it happen.
- 25:04Awesome. And, and with the, the crew,
- 25:06she's being essentially the, the head coaches in NASCAR, do you
- 25:09think they get enough credit for, for what happens on
- 25:12Sundays? I think I think our fan base is
- 25:16very knowledgeable. I love Sirius radio.
- 25:20You hear the fans come on there, everything on TV on the
- 25:24weekends. We're 38 weekends, which is a
- 25:27huge window, TV and everything that takes place.
- 25:31I think our fan base is very knowledgeable and they
- 25:35understand and I think they really appreciate crew chiefs.
- 25:39They know what it takes. Our fan bases, they're after it
- 25:43and I appreciate that and there's an excitement there when
- 25:47you hear them call in on the radio or have discussions with
- 25:50them. I think they definitely
- 25:52understand how important the crew chiefs role is.
- 25:56And so I appreciate that about our fans.
- 25:59And I think in pro sports, they get a lot of attention.
- 26:03Pro sports do and certainly NASCAR does.
- 26:07And people know, you know, I think the crew chiefs are, you
- 26:11know, they deserve a lot of credit and I think they're
- 26:17they're keys to what happens here with your race teams.
- 26:21I find it interesting because you're such a motivational guy
- 26:25and competitive guy, but really up close.
- 26:28You're so down to earth, right? And I wonder if you could take
- 26:31us through the issues that you had with Chase's car and then
- 26:35Denny's car. Where are you?
- 26:37What do you do? How involved do you get?
- 26:40Then you come back and they digest it, right?
- 26:43But then are you banging on tables?
- 26:45Are you calling? Like, I'd love to hear what it
- 26:48is that you add to all of that and kind of take us.
- 26:51Yeah, I'm not sure what I had, Claire, but what we did, what we
- 26:54do, we got a great group of technical people.
- 26:58Here are Toyota people, particularly with the motors,
- 27:02which was a yeah, a huge issue for us.
- 27:05It makes you really nervous and it makes them nervous because
- 27:08there's perfectionist. So this morning, what we did, we
- 27:12got all the parts, we laid them out.
- 27:13We had a full discussion on where we are, what happened.
- 27:17That's the first thing. And and certainly in racing, you
- 27:21want to make sure you understand what did happen.
- 27:25That's really important what what did 'cause and don't miss
- 27:29that. I think we've kind of we got
- 27:32that detailed. And so the decisions then were
- 27:37made by Toyota. This is what we're going to do
- 27:40for this coming weekend. And so we feel like that we've,
- 27:44we've made the right decisions and the we kind of discussed
- 27:50what did happen and we're convinced that we made the right
- 27:53decisions about what's going to take place on Sunday.
- 27:57So I think it's made by Toyota and a lot of our technical
- 28:03people. And I'm kind of a bystander, but
- 28:06I kind of I kind of know what they're doing.
- 28:10I gotcha. And, and a quick follow up, it's
- 28:13on Chief James Small and Chase Briscoe, obviously, and then
- 28:18interviewing James Small forever.
- 28:20But to see him kind of rise to where he's refreshed with Chase
- 28:25Briscoe after kind of what he went through.
- 28:28What do you see in him to field an effort for the championship
- 28:32finale in Phoenix? Yeah, I, I think Claire his what
- 28:38he did this year with taking Chase and for them, he ever part
- 28:44of Chase's time here. Yeah, James has been in it.
- 28:50They've been just like this. And so to see them kind of work
- 28:55together and at first, you know, they got the first pole and I
- 28:59went, oh, that that's exciting. We got one pole and then they
- 29:03just kept upfront fast. And I think that's the thing
- 29:07that you look for in our sport. You want, you want a driver
- 29:12that's fast. And in order to get there, the
- 29:15crew chief has to help him for sure.
- 29:17And so as their year went, I, I, I think they set some records,
- 29:23almost 7 poles and all that they did this year.
- 29:26I think James is everybody that knows James, he cares.
- 29:32He is after it. It's a big deal.
- 29:35You know, you can see him worry about stuff.
- 29:38And so I appreciate that his his the way he cares about it.
- 29:44And certainly you're seeing somebody like Chase who came up,
- 29:50sacrificed all that he sacrificed with his family and
- 29:55him, Marissa, everything that they've gone through to get to
- 29:59this level. And it's so exciting to see them
- 30:02have a year like they've had. So none of us expected it.
- 30:06I don't think any of anybody, I don't think I didn't hear
- 30:09anybody in the press say that was going to happen.
- 30:11I think it took us all by surprise.