Latest / Before You Speak / Before You Speak Episode 38 | Are We Funding Our Own Surveillence State?

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Before You Speak Episode 38 | Are We Funding Our Own Surveillence State? · Before You Speak

• Elwyn: This erosion of trust in our government, this idea that the government not only isn't working on our behalf, but doesn't even know what the normal day to day lives of American people are like, that doesn't know that it's almost impossible to have a student loan payment, a house payment, and car payment on an average salary. Derek Peterson: What's up y'all? Welcome back to the Before You Speak podcast where we thoughtfully or at least try to thoughtfully deep dive into topics that we think are relevant for the times that we're living in. But before we do that, I am your host, Derek Peterson, and as always, we'll start by processing the fire hose of our newsfeeds. Well, I'll process the fire hose of my newsfeed with this guy somewhere. You're on you're either above or over there. Elwyn: What's up? Yeah. I on yours I'm to the right or left. I don't know. I am Derek Peterson: Right now you're above me. Elwyn: Well, as I encircle Derek, I am Elwyn, and right now the fire host of my newsfeed has evaporated 'cause it's like a hundred degrees in Texas and Texas summer is bullshit and I fucking hate it. Derek Peterson: You know, since I've been in Texas, it I feel like the it's slightly like we got when I first got to Texas in 2012, I feel like summer started like in April. And I feel like now summer doesn't really kick in full until July, but it goes all the way until November. Like it's still brutally hot in October. So like we'll we'll see. Like I'm not a I'm not a huge fan of the Like i September sucks. Like everything is hot all the time. and that's the it's my birthday month and it's also when football starts. So I just I feel like I'm sweating all the way through the month of September. So but you know, things Elwyn: Yeah, it's you know, you probably had this also, but you grow growing up in Utah, but growing up in New York, you know, September rolls around, back to school, weather starts to drop. Maybe on a weekend you you're sitting outside and you know need a sweatshirt and a blanket and maybe a fire. And here it's like it still gets me. This will be my eleventh September in Texas, and I know that I'm just gonna be pissed on like September twentieth when it's ninety-eight degrees. Derek Peterson: I love Nick Lachey. Everybody tells me I look like him. So the that was a ninety eight degrees joke, by the way, the boy band. in case all of our loyal listeners know. Elwyn: Yeah. It to it took me a minute. Derek Peterson: Well let's jump into the news. so Mitch McConnell. Nobody knows where he's at. We still don't I I'm fully believing that he's in a coma or dead because you know like it's relatively simple to provide proof of life and AI provides photos and all of the photos that they have supplied have no metadata. So there's no way to actually know if the photos are real or not. and so which is shady in and of itself. But to if I'm being honest, my my biggest frustration we we spoke about this a little bit as we were doing our podcast prep is just that, you know, like If if if the rules were reversed, Mitch McConnell would have already replaced himself. So the Andy Bashir needs to make an executive decision. And in my opinion, just put somebody in. Because if you if you just put somebody in, then they're forced to provide proof of life. Then there's no way or there's no way around it. They can't just say you can't do that. Like, I mean, so in my opinion, I the Democrats, this is like case in point about how the Democrats just are fighting a different fight. It's like we're you know, ice skating and they're boxing. It's just like we're playing two different sports. Elwyn: Yeah, I mean I've I've said it before, Democrats are st still trying to figure out the rules, and they haven't re recognized that the Republicans are playing a different game. and yeah, I mean i you're right. I I hadn't really thought what would happen if Bashir just was like, you know what? I believe that he's dead. And because I have that belief, and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'm gonna exercise my right to appoint someone else. And you know, then they have to go to court and say, you don't have you he doesn't have the right to do that. And then Bashir says, I don't know. I think I do. I think he's dead. Show me he's not dead. Right? And, you know, this is the kind of story where it's like it's a little bit funny enough. You know, like the the proof of life photo that they gave and and all that stuff. Like there's this undercurrent of just like black humor to it. So I can't allow myself to be outraged about everything, especially when it comes to like Republican hypocrisy. But if Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: I were to to dive in, like it's right this one's right on the line where it's like I'm I'm just choosing not to let my outrage meter fly off the scale. Because this Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: guy, you're absolutely right. Mitch McConnell would have removed Mitch McConnell as senator already. There's no question about that. Right? We have and this There's part of it that's not just Republicans, Democrats with Diane Feinstein did the same thing. But like we have a system now where you can just be completely infirm and ninety something years old and still be a senator. And the loss of one senator is the loss of one out of a hundred, right? That's an important vote. So now Kentuckians don't have two senators. They have one. He's been in the hospital for forty three days now. You know, no one has seen a live video that I think there's only been the one picture that came out. Of him, where this is like absolute proof of life with a newspaper in his hand and he's pointing to the date or something. you know, so he's not Derek Peterson: Yeah. Which is also exactly how you would create a photo in AI if you were trying to provide proof of life. So it just it feels the whole thing just feels like a setup. You know what I mean? Elwyn: And it's lud it's ludicrous that the that that's the position that we're in anyway. Right? Like that that a pr a literal proof of life photo is what's is what the McConnell camp felt was needed to slow slow the roll on this. Right? That's bonkers. If if he can't get up in front of a camera and speak to us, then he's not fit to serve as a senator and he shouldn't be in the Senate. And he's still getting paid. I'm sure he's made billions in other ways, but This motherfucker has spent forty years voting against paid sick leave and any sort of worker protection that would help them if they get sick and and keep their job in place should they get sick so that they don't go bankrupt as a result. And now he's in a coma or brain dead or whatever for forty three days, still employed. The Republican Party's just like We love Armitch. Derek Peterson: Yep. Yeah, dude it all of it is like okay, so the photo that they provided is something that can easily be doctored with AI and artificial intelligence and still has no metadata on it. So if they really wanted to actually like fix some of this stuff, just provide a photo with metadata or a video. Like they that shows that the time location and timestamp from when they took it. Like but the Elwyn: No, we we need to see Mitch McConnell i alive. We need to see him either walk or get wheeled to a microphone and speak words. Like I Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: absent that at the very least he you know, Bashir should like, No, he's incapacitated, he can't serve, right? But it's not just like the joke of is he dead or not. It's also the like, no, he's he's got a job that he's not doing and at some point You just can't let someone I mean the Republicans did with Tom Kane too. Just they these guys just disappear for months. And you know, the Republican Party is like, well, whatever. We don't really care because we don't give a shit about anything. Yes, he did, Derek Peterson: D has that guy ever showed back up? Elwyn: actually. He like he had checked himself into a mental hospital for suicidal depression. So it's actually like a little sad. But still, four months like quit your job, man. Give up your seat. Derek Peterson: Yeah. For real. Like there's a all of this stuff is it it feeds into the br all of this stuff is feeding us and like I feel like funneling us towards what I hope is actual change when all of this is done. Like the whole Trump experiment is just shown us like how flawed the system is. And I genuinely hope that the byproduct coming out of all of this is we don't end up all dead in World War Three or under authoritarian regime. I I hope that is pr it's protections around democracy and like we talked about in some of our early podcasts, codifying some of these norms and setting, you know, term limits and age limits and actually kind of fixing the system, up uprooting Citizens United, fixing, you know, the the money that infiltrates politics and ruins all of it. You know, like We don't have the people's best interest at heart anymore. We have whoever is paying the most money i into it. And we're seeing that in real time in all of these primaries that are starting to kick off. Like, dude, if you're taking big pack money now and it's tr like this is starting to work against you. You know, like all the money that you're taking in w this is gonna play out really interesting in the this Michigan primary election with Abdul Said and what's her name? Amy or ha Elwyn: Hayley Stevens Hailey Stevens. Derek Peterson: Haley Stevens. Yeah, it's interesting because one of them is heavily pack funded and the other one is not. And we're like that election in and of itself, I think, hold is gonna speak a lot to how the American people are viewing, you know, money in our politics right now. And my hope is is that the outcome of all a lot of these elections is that Yeah, like grassroots campaigns start to take hold and come back a little bit more and big money has less and less of an impact because if we get enough people that have those viewpoints in into the system, there's hope that we can actually eradicate all of that and get back to some normalcy. I would love I would love again a time where I'm genuinely torn bef between voting for a Democrat and a Republican. based on their policies and values. but right now it's just we we don't even we're not even afforded that opportunity at the Elwyn: Well, yes and no. You know, I mean I you can s if if we were in Michigan, you know the Michigan voters, they have the choice. They they have the right to vote for a progressive Hassan Piker left backed, you know, in the you know in the camp of Mamdani type Democrat or a more centrist Democrat who they've known for a long time. Like they they have that choice. Now, is there an incredible amount of money coming into one side that is attempting to weigh the scales, yep, absolutely. And and and that is a problem. But it doesn't it doesn't really relieve of relieve us fully of choice because in the primaries in particular we do have that choice and we just we're seeing that play out this year. It's what you alluded to at the beginning. but you know I I just the money in politics has to change absolutely. you know I'm not sure if the primary system needs to exist anymore either. To be honest, you know, it it just it lends itself towards the most extremes on both sides. Right? How did we get how do we get extremist MAGA Republicans? They win a primary in a red district. And, you know, how are why why are people freaking out about DSA candidates? Because like you know, one of the ones in New York is like, No, we should absolutely abolish all police. There should be zero police and she's gonna be a congresswoman. She won the primary. So The primary system really lends itself to just the extremes of both sides. But money out of politics, like six-week election cycle, whatever. Shorten the shit up, take the money out of it as much as possible. You know, I don't returning it to normalcy, I think the risk that we run right now is apathy of the American people, right? And a sense of disconnectedness, which is That's certainly there where it's like the the elected officials are not representing us at all. And how that plays out, we don't know. It's it we've never faced Derek Peterson: Well. Elwyn: that in this country. Derek Peterson: Yeah, but the apathy that's not gonna be a ma that that's not gonna hold. The apathy will change because life I mean, I think over the last what ten to fifteen years, life hasn't gotten bad enough that people have actually thrown their arms up and been and really been an advocate for change. But dude, there's there's a world that we're headed that direction right now. Like, you know, Our stock market has been held up by a handful of AI companies and AI investments. And we're starting to see the cracks in that. There are people divesting from AI. AI is proving itself to be not only difficult to sell to the American people as far as data centers go, but the cost of acquisition, like you know, when you think about like a business, right? When you for me to acquire a c a client, if it cost me $250 Per client for me to acquire based on ads and different things that I'm running. That's worth it based off of what I take home when I sell. For AI, once they acquire a client, they end up spending like 10x on that client more. And that the infrastructure and the setup for AI is just not, it's it's not there. and it and they're still a a long ways off from it being there. and So you you couple the stock market potentially crashing on top of the war in Iran, gas prices, you know, oil prices potentially hitting over a hundred and twenty dollars a barrel, which shoots up food prices and everything else. Like we could see ourself in a situation where people genuinely are fed up. I I think apathy may may not be the choice, you know, coming up 'cause we're we're we're headed down a pretty ugly path potentially. Elwyn: No, I I agree with you, but I think so what I referenced at the end was we don't know where the apathy leads. It can either lead to, you know, revolution and anger, or yeah, but or Derek Peterson: Well, apathy got us here potentially. Elwyn: it it could you know, I don't think it's too late. I don't know if the candidates exist, but I don't think it's too late for, you know, smart candidates to come in and actually listen to what the American people are saying. You know, the the money in politics prevents that truly from happening in a lot of cases. But, you know, if I do think that people in general are they don't wanna like engage in a revolution. So they're we're willing to back candidates that give us hope that that we feel like are listening to us. it it's why progressive candidates have been successful, because they're talking a language that a lot of the American people are like, Yeah, no, this guy understands or this lady understands my life. the problems in my life. And that means that she can or he can seek to fix those problems in government. And I think people want that and they'll vote for that. And they'll hold the they'll keep their powder dry, both figuratively and literally, if they feel that. So there's always that avenue also. I don't apathy will not reign forever because at some point you have to eat. And, you know, if if you can't eat or you you're eighty seven or seventy five and you and you lost your retirement savings and now you have to go you be a greeter at Walmart, you or someone in your family is unlikely to remain apathetic for very long. Derek Peterson: Yeah. Yeah, the money is the problem. We all know what the problem is, the root of the the cause of all of this, and it it's just gonna take and this is what is interesting about some of these DSA candidates, is that they're some of the few people that are actually talking about like ending all of this. And they're some of the few people that can because they're not taking pack money. So like that's the that is the catalyst for a lot of this stuff, which is interesting to me, but we can jump on that. Elwyn: Well the money the money is the money huge, but there's also a bubble that these folks live in. Like I just read yesterday James Clyburn, who's a congressman from Georgia or South Carolina or something. he's been Maryland. He's been in office for 40 something years. And he was just texting someone the other day this came out with a screenshot of text that he only learned what Chat GPT was like last month. And Honestly, I don't think yeah, I I you can't if you just learned what Chat GPT was last month, you cannot be legislating for on behalf of us in twenty twenty six. Period. Quit. Resign your job. You do not have the knowledge. It's like me saying that I'm a real estate agent and I've never bought or sold a house and holding myself out as an expert. You know, it's I shouldn't be doing it. Derek Peterson: Correct. That is a thousand percent correct. You're you don't know anything about the very thing that's currently holding up the United States economy, and not even just the United States, the world economy at this point. You know, like it it's insane. So which the other thing that holds up the world's economy is oil. and we are still in the war in Iran. Is there anything we need to to discuss here? Elwyn: You know, I've I worry that the oil situation is actually really bad and we just don't know it yet. Right. If we look at the first time Trump sort of stopped this war, if you go back like five days before he said that, he had a meeting with all the CEOs of the major oil companies and What reporting has come out of that, and there's not a ton, but what reporting has come out of that all said that the those CEOs were like, dude, we are in trouble. Like we are like the the the oil's about to stop coming into doc. This is a this is a major, major problem. We don't have enough oil. We are running out, we are running out fast. You have to figure this shit out. And since then it's been like open, closed, open, closed. The nut of it is he doesn't know what he's doing. He doesn't care about what he's doing. You know, it it it's it's the biggest foreign policy mistake and self own certainly in our country's history. Maybe in world history. I have no idea if like the Greeks or Romans did similarly stupid shit two thousand years ago. But you know Derek Peterson: If they did, it's probably what ended their civilization. Elwyn: No doubt about it. No doubt about it. Right. So, you know, it's people are s are not talking that much about Iran anymore because we all know, like, all right, great, he's making threats again. Like now the Iranians know when he says he's gonna bomb them all back to the stone ages, he's not going to. You know, so it's all bullshit. And they can just now the Yemenis are are fucking up the Red Sea, like Just think that at some point my worry is that and it's gonna happen very quickly, that people are gonna be like, No, we're we're out of oil. We have like three weeks left of oil and it's too short of a timeline to do anything about it. Derek Peterson: Yeah. You know what else is crazy is I was just listening to the Pod Save America guys talk about how they were somebody was I think in Congress they were asking someone and I'm don't remember exactly who about the Venezuela oil. And there's been something like three billion dollars worth of oil coming that's come out of Venezuela that's complete the that's completely unaccounted for. Like and nobody is ans will answer the question of where like what happened and where did it go. which is exactly what all of us were saying prior to them going into Venezuela was like, This is an oil grab for someone and we're gonna do a bunch of shady shit's going to happen as soon as all of this transpires, which is exactly there's a bunch of people getting wealthy off the books and everybody else is in the and they used our military as the as the the means to do it, which is Complete horseshit. The only people that should be benefiting from any of that, which to be quite frank is no one. Not none of us should be benefiting from the Venezuela oil unless it's sold to us, in my opinion. But Elwyn: Except for Venezuela. Derek Peterson: except for Venezuela, correct. But at this point, once it's done, the American people who fund our military should be the ones that are benefiting from it. So it it's infuriates me, but also par for the course with everything that's go been going on with this administration, which is just the most corrupt bullshit that we've ever seen. And that's not even getting Elwyn: Yeah. Derek Peterson: into the worst of it, which is the crypto stuff. Elwyn: I don't know anymore how you can just look at the news that is well reported, like if you pay thirty minutes of attention a day to the news and not CNN really, like to actual news. I don't really know how you can come to any conclusion other than There is a group of folks, and and this sounds like the most anti-Semitic Jew hate thing anyway. I just don't think that the folks are Jewish, right? But that our entire world is being controlled and gamed by like I don't know, fifty people, right? Derek Peterson: for sure. Elwyn: Because I'm expanding Trump's circle to include his sons, and then his sons, you know, Jared Kushner, right? It'd probably get to fifty people. But like, you know, when you see Peter Thiel like decamping to the mountains of Argentina and You know, Elon Musk is i is a bond villain at this point, right? And Donald Trump doing his shit, how can you not conclude that the entire system that yeah, they're taking the oil for themselves, that Peter Thiel has some fucking bunker or he bought a mountain and he's storing barrels of oil for himself, which sounds ludicrous. But why not? Right? Everything else is so completely gamed and rigged, you know, there's no transparency, there's no visibility on anything. The Crypto shit is a giant mess, right? Everything is a grift and everything is done for the power of those in power. So how do you not become like okay, cool, we're living in a glass onion movie where Ed Norton is on some island somewhere? Feels like that's really close to true. Derek Peterson: It is really cro close to true and you know what's interesting and you know, like Kushner and the Trump kids have gotten into bed with some some people that do not mind have killing other people, including the the Saudi Arabians and pretty much mu half the Middle East. And dude when when when Trump is gone and this has been my my my sediment from you know, the last few months with since we've been talking about it is that, you know, this claw for power for the Trump kids, like I the only play I see in all of this is that they have to run Eric or Don Jr. for president because i if if the Trumps lose power that their family is screwed. Like i i in some way Elwyn: Is it? Derek Peterson: like there's well Trump pulls the strings, right? And so when you lose that power in the United States Like what like what what is the benefit to having the Trump kids around? And and and to be quite frank, I don't think the Trump kids are Trump. I don't think that they're gonna garner the kind of attention and persona that he has historically that's ju it does doesn't work like that. So I to be honest, I think they're fucked when all is said and done in all of this, if if one of them does not gain some kind of political power in all of this. So I mean we'll see because Democrats take control if it at some point or even J D Vance, like, you know, I I don't see J D Vance being able to call shots like Trump does. Elwyn: Yeah, but who who's going after who's going after the Trump kids, right? So let's say in JD Vance certainly isn't. So forget about that. Forget about any re any Derek Peterson: Anybody that gets anybody that got screwed over in a deal, leveraged by the Trumps, which i in secrecy. Elwyn: They they have they have so much money now that it doesn't matter. And like do I the only I guess scenario where I could see what you're talking about making any sense is like, you know, what's his name? MSB Mohammed MBS, the Saudi Arabian guy, that Derek Peterson: Yeah, MBS. Yeah. Elwyn: he like fucking chops them up like he chopped up the reporter. But honestly, I think they've amassed so much money and so much wealth now. Then no matter what, they'll just be like, Great, there's a there's a sweet apartment for me in Saudi Arabia. There's an Albanian island that I bought. I can they just have too much money, and I don't trust the Democrats at all to be like, No, we're throwing you fuckers in jail. That to me is what needs to happen. They're all criminals and they should all go to jail. And other countries do this. South Korea, their their president last year tried to basically commit commit a coup, right? The the parliament Fought back. There's video of like the the opposition leader climbing over the walls of the parliament building to get back in and cast the vote. They cast he cast the vote, he kicked the guy out of office, they arrested him like six weeks later, and now he's been sentenced to life in prison in in a year. This can be done. This can be done. Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: We just in this country have no will. We've never had the will to do it. And it goes back to Gerald Ford, it probably goes back before then. But until one party has the political will to say These are criminals who did crimes and I'm arresting them. And if you think I'm a criminal that did crimes, come arrest me too. And if I see a Democrat that's done it, I'm arresting them too. But this shit has to end. And that's the only way Derek Peterson: Yeah. It has to. Elwyn: it ends, because the more it stays like, well, you know, harmony and unity, and now we're in power and we don't want to blah blah blah lawfare. Bullshit. The fucking lawbreakers have to go to jail. And No party in this country has shown a willingness to do it. Derek Peterson: Yeah. And I I think we're headed towards a place where the American people are going to this there's a world where this gets bad enough that the American people are gonna require that of their elected officials in the future, but we'll see. I mean, it happened in Brazil, right? The Bolsonaro getting arrested. So like y there are other countries pulling it off. So well let's end our news we news topic our news segment for today there. which It went in a couple different but probably needed. I that that was a Elwyn: was fun. Derek Peterson: good conversation. Yeah. so today we are going to talk about are we funding a surveillance state for ourselves in general? And so I think important to start off is, you know, what and I'll let you kind of fill this first question is what is a what would a surveillance state be? Elwyn: Well, you know, surveillance state can in can encompass an awful lot of different things, right? So I but I think for purpose of our purposes of our discussion, we're talking about ways that we are watched, yes, but also ways that our world is molded based on what the watchers see. so you know, and and there is a balance, right? traffic cameras, for example, right? Like We don't have them in Texas. They have in a lot of other states. You know, are they useful in preventing traffic deaths? Yeah, I actually think that they are. Is there an argument about freedom, which is the argument Texas made that nope, if you want to catch me speeding or running red light, you have to actually catch me running a s red light? Yeah, I think that's an argument to be made too. I don't I don't necessarily think that so much is the surveillance state that we're talking about. I think we're talking about data. I think we're talking about honesty and transparency with that data. And I think that we're talking about things like surveillance pricing. so you know, how are we tracked by companies, by governments? What is done with our data? what do governments do with our data? What do companies do with our data? Do we know what they're doing with what they're doing with our data? And then why did my airline price, my airplane ticket just go up eighty seven dollars and then Derek Peterson: Yeah. And it it's interesting because like historically, you know, most surveillant things start with convenience. like th they they solve a problem. And so then we as they solve that problem, people become more and more willing to give up more and more information. like I remember this, right? you remember in the early two thousands when a website required you to put in a credit card? And you're like, whoa, that's a step too far. I'm not putting my credit card in there. Who knows what you're gonna do with that, right? and now it takes about fifteen seconds for our phone to auto populate a credit card into a a blank. Elwyn: People send me pictures of their credit card over text. Derek Peterson: Yeah, for for whatever reason to purchase or you know pay for your membership. So you know we've we've gotten to a pla like so things typically start with convenience. but I think the question on whether like so what what point do does convenience begin to shift and the use of those things becomes data That can be used against us. Elwyn: I think s i organiz like on a society level, you know, if I understand the question, which is you know, when when does it become this data collection is not being used to for convenience anymore? It's gone past that and it's going now to just why do they need all this stuff? What are they doing with it? I don't know what that point is, but I know we're past it. I don't I don't I don't Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: know exactly where that was, but I'm we're we're past it by years and years and years. You know, I think why I paused before is like, where does it there's also an individual question there, which is, you know, what's our comfort level with giving up, with with being surveilled? so you you but I think the answer to your first question comes down to trust. You know, I think that they're the party that's collecting the data, we're likely to allow it more if we trust them. So You know, Apple and Google, these companies are actually historically quite good at protecting data. When it comes now, I'm gonna put a caveat in there, like tracking apps and shit like that. I'm sure they're terrible with that. I'm sure they don't care. Right. But when it comes down to like law enforcement wants to know where I was and they want to track my cell phone, tra the GPS of my cell phone to find that, you know, Apple and Google historically are really they they fight quite hard against that. The government has to make a showing. So, you know, is there a trust w in a company like Apple? There must be, because people are sending me pictures of their credit cards. and they've done that without incident, right? Messages. Apple is is a quite a secure system. So I think that's the key. Like, do we trust our government right now to to collect data? I guess if we were I would guess if we ran a poll, it'd be eighty, twenty minimum that no, we do not. did we five years ago? Probably more than we do now. I think COVID probably really fucked with our trust in government in a lot of different ways. But I th the answer to that question I think comes down to just who is collecting the data and for what purpose. The other problem with government collecting data is like, why exactly is the government collecting data on me at all? You know, it's like Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: I that's that's a legitimate question to ask. You know, I I opt in to Apple collecting my data. I know when I don't read the thirty seven page user agreement that what I'm not reading is all the ways they're gonna use my data. so Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: I'm opting into that, but am I opting into the government tracking my whereabouts? No, not really. Derek Peterson: Yeah, and this is but this is this is something that we see currently happening. So like there was a situation in Texas and these they have these license plate readers from a company called Flock that are now placed I think there's thousands I there might be over hunt like hundreds of thousands of them across the country. But there was a story that was just came out about woman last year that left was leaving Texas to get an abortion, and they queried over eighty-three thousand cameras to track her car, leaving state lines to to do that. And we're we're seeing this more and more. You know, you you couple that with like remember during the Super Bowl this year they had that ad for ring cameras where if your dog got lost they could you know identify by looking at everybody's ring cameras. and they that ended up actually getting a bunch of pushback. And you know, these flock cameras are getting pushback as well right now. There's some hilarious videos going around the internet of a guy that's basically teaching people how to dismantle them. and then people Elwyn: nice. Derek Peterson: are yeah they're and then people are reposting them s like jokingly saying like You should never, if you see a flock camera, ever do anything like this guy is teaching you step by step how to do wink wink, which is hilarious. but yeah, I mean Elwyn: Right. Well also you have sorry, you have law enforcement officers in Florida are, you know, I don't know if it was Flock, but it was, you know, one of them was just arrested. he ran into a woman once and he wanted to date her or something. He he got her license plate and he followed her. He had like four hundred different inquiries about where he was following her in real time, where she was going in real time, so that he could create interactions with her. Right. And then so that was like everybody was like, my God, this is awful. And then that died down. Now it's like, there's actually twenty more law law enforcement officers in that area that are doing something similar. So yeah, it's disgusting what what they can do. And it has nothing to do it's anathema to freedom. Right? Like we use that word a lot, but like yeah, being tracked at every traffic light, man, that that's some dystopian shit. I mean not good. Derek Peterson: Well, and that's where yeah, and that's where this conversation come comes up, right? Because like if we as as we've gotten more and com more comfortable with the convenience of our lives and being tracked, you know, like my our cars got broken into last year and in my driveway somebody just went through the center console, ran off with a bunch of our stuff. So, you know, we have three ring cameras on the front of our house. So That we did that as a byproduct of security. Like I I I want to catch the fuckers that are digging through my car and trying to steal shit because it makes me feel unsafe. So like I'm giving up you know I'm giving up, you know, maybe some privacy for the the feeling of safety by using these ring cameras. Now, if these ring cameras are used for political purposes, like if somebody disagrees with this podcast, for example, and then uses these ring cameras to find out where I live, like that's a situation where I'm completely not comfortable with it. And I think that the part of all of this that we really have to wrestle with and struggle with is like like where are the lines and what are the consequences of using these technologies against the American people. And part of my fear in all of this and you know is that are we already too far gone? Like are companies like Palantir and and some of these companies that have you know contracts with the government the with the military w will they be able to use this data to potentially in the future you know go after people that disagree with them politically? Like this this is the this is the fear and the of the the the path that we're on, right? is the party in power can then eliminate or use use tracking this data as a fear tactic to put people in you know under their oppression or make them scared enough to never do anything about it. Elwyn: Well that I mean, that's already happened, right? That's the that's the Texas abortion case. That's a purely politic politically driven instance designed to create fear, and and punish someone for doing something that the party in power doesn't think they should be able to do. You know, I I think that you know, one of the differences with flock cameras and some of the other stuff is no one has been able to sell anybody on the benefit to To us from Flock cameras. You know, from cameras like that. No one. Right? What and that's why that ad was it, I think it was Flock and Simply Safe or something like that in the Super Bowl. Right? And and the backlash was so big that within fourteen days, the partnership that they were advertising, they they discontinued. They disbanded it. Because everybody watched that and they were like, fuck no, I don't want you to be going going into my my camera to find someone's lost dog, get the hell out of here. Like I want my nest camera, my ring camera, for the reason that you exactly just described. I do not Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: want someone to be able to access it without my knowledge or permission. I'll go through the video and I'll give you the video if I want to. Right? But, you know, we know from the the Nancy Guthrie case, you know, Savannah Guthrie's mom, when she was kidnapped, there was this kind of kerfuffle online about How she didn't have the Nest Premium service that would have recorded everything the camera saw for like fourteen or thirty days. And there are people like, This is why I always pay for Nest Premium, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is such an incredible safety thing. You have to have it. And Nest is sitting there like, Yeah, guys, she didn't pay for it. We can't we can't give you the video. Like she had to pay for it. And then thirty days later What's the headline on the Derek Peterson: They have the video. Elwyn: head lead story on the news? Is they have the video and they're like, Well, we were only able to find it by going through layers of this and layers of that, and it's like no one believes you. No one believes that if you believe that for a second, you're you really I got a bridge to sell you. Because of course they know where to find that data. Right? They've been selling this stuff for years. It wasn't like, my god, Savannah Guthrie's mom got kidnapped. Let's overturn every stone to see if somehow that That data, that image is still in our system. No, they knew exactly where to look. They just wanted enough time to pass where people would forget about the first debate and they could lock in all their subscribers. So, you know, yeah, I Derek Peterson: I was gonna say I'd be curious how many subscribers they they that upgraded their their plans after that case was went national. I'd be really curious to see that data. Elwyn: Yeah. So I think that there's you know, it does tie back we're willing to accept a lot of this stuff. I think most of us now recognize the the convenience of this guy, of the phone, of the internet, of GPS in our cars is so valuable and so much a part of our everyday life that we accept that we're giving up, you know, ourselves our our privacy a little bit, that we're allowing ourselves To be tracked. But tracking is not surveilling. Surveilling is a more active and insidious thing. So when it comes to like live following the the real-time whereabouts of just an innocent woman who has no idea what's going on, or tracking someone who's leaving the state to get an abortion, you know, that is surveillance and that is dangerous. And I don't think anybody agreed to sign up for that. Derek Peterson: Yeah, and I think it's important to note, you know, ring cameras and NES cameras are owned privately, right? But flock cameras are installed by government. And the flock cameras are different because they're license plate readers. They're meant to be license plate readers. That's what they're designed for. But the the sell to communities and, you know, city councils and places that installed these was that, you know, this prevents, you know, this allows us to track stolen cars and this allows us to track kidnappings and this allows us to do you know basically prevent crime like it it was they were installed by a government to to make people feel safe and again like j just a complete misuse of the technology and the lack of trust and you know it's it took all it took was some a couple of these cases to start to really you know this This might actually be the flock cameras were getting you know, I'd seen videos about people talking about how awful it is that we're being surveilled. but the this Texas case I think is really starting to fire people up a little bit about it. but I mean ironically, you know, the the the people that are the most have historically been against the you know no surveillance, you know, we're not going We're not in nineteen eighty four or whatever, were the the MAGA Republicans and they're also the ones that are the most likely to be cheering on the fact that the government used that data to track somebody that was getting an abortion. So it's the it's people are against it unless it's i in circ in most circumstances and until it's or or the these people would be for it until it's used against them, essentially. Elwyn: And and their argument in response would be like I'm not doing anything that that the government would need to do this for, would need to surveil me for, which is just fucking good for you. Right? Like that that it's an argument that's like so shallow that it but so effective to people also, right? We still hear it all the time. Like, well, I don't care. I'm not doing anything that would get me in trouble. It's like, good. I'm glad you're a good citizen, but like Part of freedom is the choice to to roll the dice and do and run a red light. You know, roll the dice and travel out of state to get an abortion. That's all part of freedom. When I make that choice, you know, catch me. You know, the the Derek Peterson: Yeah. Yeah. Elwyn: my bet is that I won't get caught. If I get caught, I'll pay the fine. I'll go to jail if I committed a crime. But like, you know, no, there there there's a certain pact we make, and then, you know, just tell them that the Democrats are gonna use that data to you know, I don't know, look at their IRS returns or something like that, and the whole argument falls apart. Derek Peterson: Well, the argument falls has already fallen apart. There I the actually what spawned this conversation and what made me bring this up was I I was watching a story, a news story about a woman in Colorado that flock cameras had picked her car up on around the same time that there was a you know a package pirate stealing packages off people's doorstep, and it was a blonde older blonde woman. And the woman that was stealing packages happened to be an older blonde woman. And they found this data in the or the flock cameras picked up her car. And the police came to her house and were I don't know if they arrested her, but it was a weeks, weeks process of like two or three weeks of her having to prove that she that it was not her. And that it was she had to use ring camera from her house and ring camera from other people's footage to prove that the flock cameras were wrong, that she was, yes, in that area because she lived there, but it was actually another blonde woman that was stealing those packages. So, like this data can be used against us. Like there there's gonna be a lot of situations that come up that it wrong place at the wrong time, and and the the most concerning thing about this for me is that the people that will be the worst affected in all of this are black people because they're like, Well, you're black, you were in the area and we tagged your license plate when this crime was going on. So yeah, end of story. We're doing no more investigation beyond that. And it's like, this is completely messed up. So and that that's what terrifies me about all of this is just that we're you know we're we're headed down a path that could be that could be we're We we've given up enough of our conveniences that, you know, we've funded and and agreed to the self monitoring that could be something that potentially erodes our society. Elwyn: Yeah, the thing it's like for me it doesn't even amount to to fear, where it's just like it's just obvious that this is all a bad idea. You know, like that story you just said, it's it's just obvious that this stuff can fall into that the possibility, that the the mere possibility that this could be used by, you know, a rogue or a bad actor in government is so obvious that Why why does the discussion go beyond that? It's like meta glasses, right? Like meta glasses, I think now are are finally kinda last I read, they're a little bit they're they're struggling, meta struggling with the metaglasses. Like this is I think the third time now that camera glasses are failing. And the reason why is because nobody wants somebody walking around wearing a pair of glasses, you know, taking pictures of them and filming them without their knowledge, you know, and like disrobing them. With some AI thing without their knowledge, right? Nobody fucking wants that. That's just surveillance on an individual level. Right? So and it's obvious to people that that's bad and that we don't want that. But somehow, you know, I guess because it's government and it's hidden behind a bunch of layers, right? We've allowed it to get to the point now where these things are happening and we have to fight back. And it does seem like by and large, communities are fighting back against Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: flocks. Derek Peterson: But we're I mean, we're already like a step we're one step away from military use being used against us as surveillance. I mean, it already is happening. I ICE is already ICE is already yeah, Elwyn: Sure. I I I believe it's already happening. Derek Peterson: ICE is already they've already shown that ICE is using flock cameras to track immigrants. So we're literally a half step away before ICE is, you know, tracking a Democrat for just like Elwyn: Yeah. Derek Peterson: That that that the Republicans are starting to track all the Senate Democrats, and all the the House, you know, Democrats to find out if they're ever doing anything wrong so they can make a public mockery of it. You know, like we're we're we're so close to all of this stuff and it Elwyn: We're we're not a half we're not a half step away from the capability, we're a half step away from that use case. But the capability Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: is there. I feel certain that Palantir if if Donald Trump called up Peter Thiel and was like, Hey man, gimme all you got on Derek and Ellen, i it would be twenty minutes. Derek Peterson: Yeah, be done. Yeah. Yeah, ex a thousand percent correct. So, you know, is there anything we want to leave with on a hopeful note here? Or is this just all I mean, I don't know that there is a I Elwyn: No, it's all shit. It's all shit. But I I I want to talk also about surveillance pricing because I think Derek Peterson: Okay. Elwyn: this talks this gets into a little bit of like, you know, what do we believe our government should be doing? Like what what do we believe the role of good government is? And surveillance pricing is a real thing, and it's this idea that algorithms, programs are watching your buying habits, watching your browser, where you're browsing from, what you've done in the past, what you've bought in the past. in order to figure out what is the most you'll pay for an item. And probably I feel like the example that most people know of with this is you're looking for an airline ticket. You know, so figure, all right, tonight we're going to buy tickets for our next trip and you start searching and then you go have dinner and you come back and you're like, wait, this ticket just went up eighty seven dollars. Right? Like, my God, we better buy this. These seats are selling out. That's why it's going up. Nope. Not at all. They know that you came back because you're looking back at that flight and they know that based on all sorts of data, they can now increase that price a certain amount. this is a thing that happens. This is not, you know, not like tinfoil hat type shit. So, okay, why did I say this about good government? Shouldn't government regulate this? Like isn't this something to me, this feels like something that government should be passing a law saying you can't do this. Set a price. That's the price. Right? You don't get to just follow somebody and rip them off because you have data that indicates that the price you originally set was too low. No, that's your problem. Right? We need to protect the consumer from being skinned for an extra hundred bucks on those tickets. You know, I bought I just bought tickets. We're going to see Noah Con tomorrow, Bianca and I. And so I had to buy them on Stub Hub because they sell out in a day. And the whole time I was like, are these gonna go down? Or do they know that I keep looking and you know I'd go to different sites and I'm like, now they have my data again. Like this is something that an organization, an agency like the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, the CFPB, should be able to do, should be able to help consumers by passing regulations and or laws that prevent companies from doing this. And I don't think that that is an unfair ask of government. And I don't think that well. I believe that when I consider what government exists for, it's that type of thing. It's to protect an individual against the power and money of a company that can spend whatever, twenty million dollars putting into putting in place that program that's going to be leveraged against millions of us and it's going to make them millions more dollars. I don't have the money to fight that or to know that it's there or to know how to get around it, right? But I know it's there and I know it's costing me money and good government. should be able to help me with that. And I think that it's kind of this little place where we can say, you know, good government goes beyond keeping roads paved and goes beyond, you know, upgrading infrastructure and upgrading hospitals. There are agencies that exist, like the Clean Air Act that help us breathe clean air and clean water act and that protect us from companies who are just trying to rip us off. but we're not having that conversation because I don't know, because MAGA and Trump and because feckless Democrats, but I do think a lot about what do we what do we define, how do we define our government? And I feel like this is an interesting place to be like, no, I define government as an entity that learns this is going on and finds a way to stop it because in doing so they're protecting their constituents. Derek Peterson: Yeah. You're a thousand percent correct. And even when government has done that, it gets turned over, right? Like 'cause there were remember I think it was the Biden administration that put in the forced one kick one click cancellation policy for for subscriptions because people were getting charged and then the the you could you can one click to sign up for a subscription and they make it a giant fucking circus to cancel. And so the Biden administration put in a one-click cancellation policy, and the Trump administration ended it. They they backtracked all of it as soon as he got in to because their interests are corporations and people funneling money to the campaign. And you know, all of this, this entire conversation points back to one thing: is that our leadership and government is is eroding the trust of the American people, and as they erode trust. their surveillance and their their need to control us increases because disr unrest will become a thing and we're like I said I don't think we're that far from from this stuff really mattering to people and my hope is is that we have politicians that are that are going to be more open and talking about all of this stuff because it's important. We want to see criminals prosecuted We wanna see a mi freedom in America. We don't wanna be surveilled. We want government that works for the people and actually, you know, prevents prevents people from screwing us over on a large scale. So we can buy concert tickets and and not feel like we're getting gouged or a or a flight at every at every turn. but when our government is serving corporations, th it just doesn't work and it it can only work like this for so long before people lose their mind and I we're at least I'm getting close to that. So I'm assuming other people are either already there or getting close to it too. But so now who we telling to shut the fuck up to today, Alwyn? Elwyn: It's kind of in line with in line with a lot of what we're talking about. We are telling centrist democrats and mainstream media to just shut the fuck up about the DSA, about the democratic socialists of America. Just shut the fuck up. You don't know what you're talking about. You're you're fucking everything up. Okay. Look, there are fringe there are policies that people in the DSA support that don't work and that are bad politics. Like Abolishing the police, right? defunding the police, things like that. That's a terrible, stupid policy. I get it. Okay. But alongside that terrible, stupid policy is universal health care, is you know, universal pre-K is allowing people to go to work while they're raising their kids, with or allowing people to afford childcare while they're raising their kids. It's housing reform so that people can buy a home and create generational wealth. It's Student loan reform so that people can go to college, you know, and because of some sickness that I don't know, I don't know what it is. You know, I don't know who hurt James Carville, you know, who hurt Jamie Harrison, the the former Senate committee leader for the Democrats, where they see, you know, a couple of DSA candidates win in New York and they're like, get these people the fuck out of my party. If these people are in my party, I don't want to be in my party. Dude, shut the fuck up. Then you leave because you're the problem, not them. Okay, because the there's a reason they're winning. And that reason is kind of everything we've been talking about. This erosion of trust in our government, this idea that the government not only isn't working on our behalf, but doesn't even know what the normal day to day lives of American people are like, that doesn't know that it's almost impossible to have a student loan payment, a house payment, and car payment on an average salary. That Housing is too expensive, that car insurance, that childcare, that my God, health insurance. We were looking at health insurance, it was gonna be twenty eight hundred dollars a month. Twenty eight hundred dollars a month. Are you fucking serious? That's a okay, we're not buying health insurance, we're just rolling the dice. Not paying thirty four thousand dollars a year for product that I hope to never use. That's two Porsches in my driveway that I'll that I will use every day. Right, Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: that I can't afford because I don't have twenty eight hundred dollars a month. The government doesn't know that this is the problem that American people face. And the American people are like, Bro, who's listening? And there's the DSA going, We are. We see it. You know, we're your we're your age. We've come up in the same way that you've come up, we're living in the same world that you've come up in. And no, you don't there's a long, long way between saying the DSA is awful and has to go. And throwing your arms against everything that the DSA stands for and saying, this is now who we are. You know, and the mainstream Democrats and the and the media are just like ignorant of that fact. They're like, well, these people are winning. Therefore, that is now the Democratic Party. So you normal moderate Democrat who's probably good on a lot of things and sees this, are you gonna disavow the DSA? Is what you're gonna do? How are you gonna win elections? You know, the Michigan senatorial election is is a really interesting one. That primary is a really interesting one. You know, who is electable? Right? Is a centrist Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: Dem that doesn't get it electable, or is a DSA person unelectable? Right? Make the Republicans make that argument. Why the fuck are we fighting? Right? Find candidates that can win. Period. Right? You don't get to argue. Whether DSA policies are good or bad in any meaningful way if you don't have power. Get power and let the fucking crazy person from New York put up her defund the police bill and let it lose in committee because she's the only one that votes for it. Right? Have that conversation when you have power. Find the people that can win. Don't shit on them because you don't like everything that they're saying. If they can win, get them in. Period. Then have that conversation and stop what I keep putting in the media, like stop bringing on three fucking Republican Congresspeople to tell your supposedly mainstream audience on CNN that the DSA is terrible. Of course the mainstream people are gonna the Republicans are gonna think that the DSA is terrible. What the fuck are we doing? Right? You're not that's not honest reporting. That's having an agenda and setting a guest list that will meet that agenda. So all those people need to shut the fuck up. And let the primary voters tell you who can win or not. And if Abdul El Sayyid wins the primary and gets wiped out in the general, well then if you're a Democrat in Michigan, you can say, Look, you motherfuckers, we had someone who could win and we lost. But if you're Mamdani and you have a 70% approval rating in New York, you can say, Look, motherfuckers, my shit works. That's the conversation that we have to have. But if we didn't learn, you know, the first time we did this was 2016 with Bernie Sanders. They pushed him out. They didn't give his platform a position to be aired. And when you do that, you make the people who follow that platform furious. And then they don't vote for Kamala Harry, they don't vote for Hillary Clinton, then you lose to Donald Trump. Right? We see this with free speech and on the Democrats also. If you tell people what they can and can't say, they're gonna break the other way. To the party that says, say whatever the fuck you want, we don't care, even though there's a bunch of awful shit being said. Right, the Democrats can't figure out that the more they talk about the shit that they don't like, the more they push the people who do like that away. And they make it harder to win. So, moderate Dems, when it comes to DSA, shut the fuck up. Say that you're monitoring what Mam Dani in New York is doing because he's the most real world laboratory experiment going on for some of these policies. And that you're watching it closely, right? And that no, you don't think that defunding the police is legitimate, but there are a lot of things about childcare and health care and public works that the DSA does stand for that are putting in play and you're really curious how that's gonna work. Answer the question that way. Otherwise, shut the fuck up. Derek Peterson: Fist bump it. This is a good one. Yeah, dude, I I I'm so I'm so annoyed with with how how I'm so annoyed with how well Republicans can deflect from terrible policy so easily, and Democrats just fumble their asses over it like it's the first time they've ever heard it. and I it just drives me insane. I'm like, man, if you can't debunk debunk somebody arguing that every all DSA candidates want to, you know, not have prisons. you know, go fuck yourself. You're an idiot. You're an idiot. So Elwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Derek Peterson: like they I lit we literally watched Donald Trump dieflect and jump through every hoop when he was disregarding Project 2025 only for them to get in and and and you know do exactly that. Elwyn: And do exactly that. It Derek Peterson: And I'm like It drives me insane to see how how poor the democratic leadership in is in our country while the policies are actually the ones that serve the people. And it's like, how in God's name did we get here? How in God's name did we get to a place where the right policies are thwarted so easily because the people that are spouting them cannot just get through like basic objections. It's like, have you never sold a fucking thing in your life? Like, God, like a car salesman could handle this better. So Elwyn: Yeah. That's right. Hey, interviewer, abolishing prisons and defunding the police is a terrible idea. I don't support it. And if that ever comes up in committee, I will vote against it. Period. There's no there's no gray on my position on this. But I think that universal health care is really important. And this person stands for universal health care and they won their primary in another state that I'm not in because that's all the only people who are doing this. So, you know, I'm I'm glad that we might have another ally on that. You know, meanwhile Andy Biggs, the Republican candidate for governor in Arizona, has been saying batshit crazy Nazi level stuff for a decade, and the answer is always I didn't see the tweet. Derek Peterson: That's exactly like God damn it. Like how do we it the playbook is all in front of us. It's just Democrats refuse to read it, so it's fine. Like yeah, maybe we end up here. But I will say, I watched a little bit of like some clips of that Abdul Sayyid and Haley back and or debate and I do think Abdul Sayyid is actually doing some of this stuff, like actually you know, staying on course, debunking, you know, dumb attacks and like look, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna give that more fodder than it needs 'cause it's n it's not where I stand. And that was encouraging to see. So we'll see. I'm interesting time coming up. But what Elwyn: If Ab if Abdul Al Sahed was named Mike Smith, this would not be Derek Peterson: He'd be Elwyn: a close primary. Derek Peterson: correct. Yep. Correct. what are we talking about next week, man? Elwyn: Do we wanna talk about isms? We had talked about that before. Derek Peterson: We should and that is something that needs to be discussed. Do we are we picking one at a time or are we talking about all of them? Elwyn: Nah, I mean I think we should do fascism slash communism and capitalism. I think we should yeah, we could do them all at once. Yeah. Derek Peterson: Do them all at once. All right. Those are some pretty big topics. Let's see how this goes. So stay tuned next week, y'all, for our our Isms conversation. So and until next week. Elwyn: The good thing is nobody can define any of that shit, so we can pretty much say whatever we want. Yeah. Derek Peterson: Unless one of us ever runs for a political seat, then these clips are gonna fall Elwyn: That's right. Derek Peterson: all over the place. Like this guy doesn't know. Elwyn: You fascist. Derek Peterson: You see what Elwin Hutter thinks fascism is? Elwyn: Yeah. Derek Peterson: Alright, we'll see y'all next week. Take care. Elwyn: Yeah.