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DNA, NGS, NMR & IRMS - What Are These Technologies And How Do We Use Them · Origin Matters

• Spencer Macintyre: Hey everyone and welcome back to Origin Matters. is a full on science episode where we will be digging into some of the different science and technologies we use here at ORIVO Specifically we'll be looking at DNA, ⁓ NGS IRMS, which is a lot of acronyms, ⁓ we'll explain them later on in the episode. And to be honest, before we before I started working at ORIVO, I'd only actually heard of DNA analysis myself, which is probably just watching crime shows or or something like that. but these technologies are actually at the core of how ORIVO helps prevent fraud and bring transparency to global supply chains. So to help me break this down, I'm joined by someone who actually understands all of this at a much deeper level, our chief technology officer, Erik Fuglseth who is a trained chemist and holds a in organic chemistry. So Let's start where most people's minds go, including mine, which is DNA. As said at the start, I think crime shows have convinced us all that DNA technology is extremely accurate. I mean it's used in court cases to convict people of crimes. but Erik, can you give us a bit of an overview as to how the actual science works, maybe like a DNA for dummies, and what a DNA analysis actually is and how it works. Erik: Sure. Happy to be here, Spencer. I will explain a bit. so DNA is ⁓ is ⁓ a molecule that we have it's percent in in our all our cells. It's sort of the genetic code that makes into ⁓ what we are, who we are. Biologic user manual, if you will. and and ⁓ you say, most have seen crime shows on on TV and how that is used, and then you understand that the DNA since they make us ⁓ into who we are different. They are between ⁓ every human we know we have ⁓ different fingerprints and and ⁓ we look different. but of course they are different between species as well. So while ⁓ a crime scene or a crime show deals with ⁓ typically who did this, and we can ⁓ identify down to the to the very person, there's also ⁓ very useful biological use of this we see where we do on on a different level or on a on a higher level where we identify which species is this instead And of course, many remember COVID where ⁓ suddenly ⁓ PCR became ⁓ an expression ⁓ everyone knew. That was ⁓ that was an expression ⁓ for scientists ⁓ before COVID I think. But ⁓ but then suddenly DNA analysis was ⁓ Became well known identifying the presence of certain species in a was very like this it describes very accurately DNA analysis is all about. Spencer Macintyre: Okay, that's super super interesting. And I know that for us we use NGS, the next generation sequencing. Is that just a different name for DNA analysis or is there two methods? There's DNA and then there's next generation sequencing, or is it just a better version or what is that? Erik: It's yeah, so NGS is ⁓ it's is all about we're we're talking about DNA analysis. so generation sequencing was ⁓ something has developed over the last 15 years or so. and this is all about ⁓ using the increasing power that we we have developed in in the world, allowing us to do parallel processing basically doing a lot more in a lot shorter time than that we could do before. Now the COVID analysis is is definitely not an NGS process uncovering sequencing the human genome for instance that ⁓ took sort of like decade to complete. Now ⁓ can use NGS do that in ⁓ in a day. or so. even even less. So ⁓ all about doing parallel processing by ⁓ utilising computer power which has allowed us the or the whole scientific community to to do to get more efficient basically do more in shorter time. Spencer Macintyre: Okay, interesting. And ⁓ what are the main areas that we're using next generation sequencing for in house at ORIVO? What kind of samples are we commonly analysing with that technology? Erik: Yeah, so so we are using at least or the the big advantage with with NGS and so on one that I told you about is that ⁓ we can multiple processes at at the same time and that allows us to instead of doing again going back to the COVID example, instead of searching for this one species in a sample, we can do what we call a non ⁓ targeted approach where we actually Do the analysis and and ⁓ and it gives us an overview of all the the species that are percent in a sample. And that can be really useful for a sample where you cannot see it's it's hard to identify ⁓ which ⁓ species you're you're looking at. instead of a fish filet, which you can Sometimes by looking at it. You're about fish meal, fish feed, ⁓ pet things like that. We can do an analysis of that ⁓ and get list. How which species are percent in this this sample. And also the ability to quantify using DNA has also improved a lot the with NGS. So we are able analyse, for instance, a pet food sample, do a kibble of of the pet food, and then list the species that are there and quantify how much is percent of each of those species. Spencer Macintyre: Mm, super interesting. I think that that's the one that you told me about before where you've got to be real careful with the tolerances because say if I got my hands and I rubbed over a sample, ⁓ some skin particles might go onto it, and that would be a chance that it could show up like zero point zero zero zero zero five percent human, for example, which is not really what we're looking for. So you've got to put in some tolerance ranges and and things like that. Erik: Definitely. And that's ⁓ that's also something that has improved a lot with with DNA. ⁓ before if you were a bit sloppy when treating the sample and you got some skin or hair or whatever into the into the sample and suddenly you had detected human not ⁓ not good for a pet food sample, for instance. But now with this ⁓ new way of analysing ⁓ things and this non-target. targeted and and quantifiable approach, you can actually say that 0.1 % percent there. So ⁓ is just contamination from Spencer being a bit sloppy with washing his ⁓ washing his hands. Spencer Macintyre: Yeah, yeah, it's super interesting that it's that specific though, that it can pick up just down to such a small level as well, which is ⁓ really impressive. Erik: It's a super sensitive ⁓ technique and ⁓ and of course that's why it's so it's been so much used in crime scene ⁓ or or ⁓ forensic that that field. But this sensitivity can be a disadvantage as well. That's cross contamination in in processing ⁓ you have ⁓ you can yeah. A warehouse storing different ⁓ fish meals for instance and you can have cross contamination of just ⁓ small particles if you if you're not quantifying what you measure, then ⁓ DNA is so sensitive that you can ⁓ you can get some very strange ⁓ results. Spencer Macintyre: That makes sense 'cause if you just picked up everything and said all of these are present but it didn't show in what sort of rough ratio then you could yeah, question it a lot more than what's what's needed. Erik: Yeah, definitely. Spencer Macintyre: Cool. So, ⁓ moving on to a technology that I'd actually never heard of before I started at ORIVO is one called NMR. And I know it's one of the core technologies that we use here because we use it to analyse lipids. and it's probably one of the backbone technologies that we use. But ⁓ would you be able to explain a l a little bit more about NMR ⁓ how the technology works and and how we use it at ORIVO? Erik: Yeah, sure. is ⁓ that's ⁓ nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy. it's actually this ⁓ very principles ⁓ as in MRI when you to the hospital or to your doctor to get a ⁓ a scan of your knee your shoulder or your your head. it's this exact same technology behind. that ⁓ MRI is used for for looking at ⁓ at tissue muscles and bones. use it for analysing fish Chemists all over world use it to to monitor or to analyse sampls of products and ingredients to actually learn what the composition of this. ⁓ this product or or the the sample is. So it's it's a technology that applies strong magnetic field which can be turned on ⁓ off and ⁓ yeah it's ⁓ can be ⁓ controlled ⁓ an advanced way. And then all organic that are observing will react to this ⁓ magnetic field. It will ⁓ differently based the composition. Which type of molecule is this? So we these magnetic fields and then we observe. We have a detector that can monitor how the molecules react. And based ⁓ on this signal, chemists then interpret them and then go back and say okay we see the signal is like this then we can we know that the composition of this of this sample is this or that. Spencer Macintyre: Okay. So that's what develops the actual sort of fingerprint that we can see on the the different graphs when we're analysing different oils and Erik: Yes, correct. That's the that's the the different compounds, respond to to the magnetic field. And this is this is well proven, as I say. Same technology as MRI, but it's also widely applied ⁓ applied throughout the chemical industries, ⁓ medicinal industries. ⁓ this is ⁓ this is a well proven and ⁓ not a new technology but it's ⁓ that has also developed a lot ⁓ the last decades and also ⁓ improved a lot by the increased processing power that ⁓ has been developed. Spencer Macintyre: Mm, super interesting. So we're using it for oils, we we're using it for a lot of marine oils. But do you know what the sort of other main areas are that chemists and scientists are using NMR for? Erik: It's it's in in the medicinal field, it's a commonly used method when you're making pharmaceuticals for instance, you need to to make sure that ⁓ firstly you have the right compound and and secondly that it's it's pure. It's pure enough. And ⁓ an NMR can be for both to identify and and also to see if there are other compounds present that you you don't want to have there. And then it's again the use in is MRI ⁓ and ⁓ then ⁓ looking at tissue to identify if you have any if the tissue is is healthy or you have any illness or or disease. Spencer Macintyre: I see. That's super interesting. So so even with the pharmaceutical companies, they might have their specific formula, that their finished product should have. They'll have the fingerprint similar to how we we're using NMR and then they would just analyze their product to make sure that it's consistent and that that product has then got a quality assurance that it can go out and Erik: Yeah, yeah, it's sort of like a sort of like a microscope. You you it's a ability to to actually look at the molecules to see which molecules are are present in a sample. Spencer Macintyre: Hm, interesting. so then moving on to IRMS. ⁓ not gonna even attempt to pretend I really know what this one is. I know that you've explained it to me a couple of times, Erik, but it seems quite quite advanced, but maybe you just take this one and explain how it's different to DNA and to NMR and how how one works. Erik: Yeah, IRMS, that's the I agree with you. It's definitely ⁓ one step up and more ⁓ so because here we are going from as with and NMR, we look molecules. ⁓ Now we take one step further down. Now we're looking at the atoms that these molecules are composed of. So we're actually looking inside the carbon atoms in inside the hydrogen atoms how they are composed for of you that remember a science class from ⁓ from high school we have something called isotopes and isotopes is what different Different forms the same atom. So a carbon atom has different versions of itself. And these exist in nature. We have isotopes naturally occurring, and scientists have found out that these ratios between these isotopes. They vary and they can they vary natural so the the ⁓ outside Peru in South has different ⁓ has a different isotopic ratio compared to the the water in Morocco for instance or outside ⁓ the coast of ⁓ Western ⁓ Africa. And that we have found out that that also influences the that live in these waters. And this hence this also influences the fish oil that comes out of these you process these ⁓ these fish. So this is actually the this is what IRMS is about. We measure the isotopic ratio of carbon hydrogen atoms, oxygen atoms in the fish oils. this is advanced, but it's the principle that we use with NMR. It's a fingerprinting technology. So what ⁓ we have established a day a reference database where we have collected fish oil samples from ⁓ from all the world, put them into a ⁓ reference with then ⁓ isotopic fingerprints then we can analyze an unknown sample compare that with the database and see if it matches with any of ⁓ of those ⁓ samples there. Spencer Macintyre: Well, that's ⁓ it is definitely yeah, quite advanced being able to analyze the isotopes ⁓ within an atom and then to able to say that that's from a different area a different origin or different species or or something like that is is pretty cool. ⁓ but what kind of areas are we commonly using, ⁓ IRMS ⁓ Erik: It's Spencer Macintyre: in ORIVO Erik: Yeah, I can say that. But first maybe also say that it's ⁓ this is not something that we have invented. This this is again a commonly used technique Mainly in ⁓ it's been used for for agricultural products for for many many years. ⁓ like grapes. ⁓ Is ⁓ a grape coming from France or is it coming from Italy? ⁓ Spencer Macintyre: Mm. Erik: apples and pears and and things like that. That's ⁓ it's been commonly used for that for ⁓ for a long time we use as you say for mainly for fish oils fish oil concentrates for instance is really it's been really useful for because When you concentrate a fish oil you take take then the natural crude fish oil Which is a triglycerid, you take that apart, concentrate the the EPA and DHA, the omega-3 molecules, and then you put them back together as a triglyceride again afterwards. And in that process, you have actually destroyed the natural fingerprint that we use NMR for. So what was looked an anchovy coming into this process, going out of it. doesn't look like an anchovy anymore using NMR, then We can use IRMS because atoms are changed in this process. It's the molecules that are taken apart and put back together to re-esterified triglyceride but the atoms stay the same. we can if we analyze what's the atoms instead, then we can we can actually still identify the species. And also another thing that we have we have used it for is to analyze ⁓ analyze ⁓ fish We've seen that ⁓ organic salmon is a big ⁓ big thing in Europe. People want to have ⁓ farmed salmon which has been raised according to to organic standards. And there we can use IRMS to actually confirm that a filet is from an organic salmon and not the conventionally farmed salmon. And that's also yeah, It's something that has been really interesting. to yeah We have collected samples from from retail chains around Europe and see that there is a lot of mislabelling in that ⁓ that area. So that's been very an interesting thing to to use the this technology for. Spencer Macintyre: Mm, yeah, and it's still probably gonna be early days, but ⁓ we're gonna to develop in that area and it seems like if it's the way that ⁓ yeah, industry is using IRMS for grapes or for pears or things like that, it makes sense that ⁓ it gets adopted more and more by seafood. ⁓ because ⁓ the that we saw the other day from the EU Commission said that the that seafood and seafood related products are the second highest adulterated. So it's good that these types of technologies can help ⁓ traders and ⁓ suppliers and and ⁓ retailers that want to be able to scientifically verify what their what they're selling is is legit. Awesome. Well I really appreciate you jumping on the podcast with me today, Erik, and ⁓ we'll see you on the next one. Erik: Thank you for ⁓ for having me. Spencer Macintyre: Yeah, I hope you enjoyed this episode and be sure to follow or subscribe wherever you you get your podcasts. Thanks. Bye. Erik: Bye bye.