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Surviving the Loss of a Child · Reasonably Happy with Paul Ollinger

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: How am I ever going to be happy again?
• 0:03
  That was the question the wife of this week's guest asked him
• 0:06
  after the death of
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: their one month old son,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Fisher.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Michael Cruz Kane is a comedian,
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: actor and a staff writer on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert,
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: where his work has earned him a Peabody Award,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: a WGA Award and two Emmy nominations.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: He made his off-Broadway debut in Sorry for Your Loss,
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: a raw,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: comedic,
• 0:25
  and deeply vulnerable one-man show about coping with a parent's
• 0:29
  worst fear,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: the loss of a child.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: You can watch the show starting March 27th on the Dropout Network.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: This is Michael Cruz Kane.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're never going to be perfectly happy all the time.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: The best you can hope for is to be reasonably happy.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Reasonably happy.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the time.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: So how long have you been writing for Steven?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I have been writing there for six years, roughly.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: What's the mood like these days?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: The mood is basically good.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like he's kind of a happy warrior in general.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's very reductive, but-
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: his energy kind of permeates and it's kind of like,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: let's keep doing the best job we can all the time.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what we're doing.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you, you have time to work on side projects.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: the job is,
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: the job is all consuming when it's happening,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: but when it's not happening,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: it's kind of whatever.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And they're very respectful of, you know, your time outside of work.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So how many weeks a year are you shooting?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I should know the answer to that question, but I don't.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Not 52 in other words.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely not 52,
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: but there's like,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:47
  we have like right now I'm here because we have today off and
• 1:51
  next week off.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say there's like six weeks we don't,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: but anyone who works with me that listens to this will be like,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: you're an idiot.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
• 2:05
  I'm sure they hire you for your rapier wit and not for your
• 2:10
  logistical skills.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm weak in that category.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, cool, man.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for doing this.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, obviously the topic is one of
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, well, how do I start this conversation?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I might just... Good luck.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I might just ask you to do me the favor to tell you about...
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 2:31
  I thought I might just ask the favor of you telling me about
• 2:34
  your son,
• 2:34
  Fisher.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess I would start with...
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I always wanted to have kids, like my entire life.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what you said in your special.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well...
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, but it's a joke.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is a joke.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And until my wife got pregnant,
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: and then I was sort of overwhelmed with the enormity of being a dad,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: not really knowing what the fuck I was doing.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Can I swear on here?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is this cool?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: We'll bleep it.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Don't worry about it.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Be you, and we'll take care of the rest.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, fantastic.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so my wife got pregnant with twins.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was scared when I knew that she was pregnant.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like 10 times more scared when I found out it was twins,
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  SPEAKER_01: just feeling like super unprepared.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: You were scared because of what?
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  SPEAKER_01: The responsibility?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just like- The financial prospects of having kids?
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to universalize my own experience, but-
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  I think there is something male about being terrified of
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  committing to anything.
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  SPEAKER_01: And sort of like, so the idea of having kids is like really cool theory.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think that's highly ingrained in our DNA and in our physicality.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So then, so once it's like, oh, now it's really happening.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh shit.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And like, oh, it's happening.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually happening double.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: How old were you when she got pregnant?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: 29, maybe.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: You're an adult.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: The anxiety of it is happening.
• 4:09
  We would go to ultrasounds and a thing that would happen all
• 4:14
  the time that I was
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  SPEAKER_01: doing involuntarily is my wife is like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: being pregnant is quite hard.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in a normal pregnancy and like a twin pregnancy, it's harder.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then like we had a bunch of complications,
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  SPEAKER_01: but she's in the chair or,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: getting the ultrasound and I'm off on the side and I'm just like,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: oh.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the tech and my wife are looking at me like, are you all right?
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  SPEAKER_01: And that would happen at every one of those appointments,
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  SPEAKER_01: just like involuntary,
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  SPEAKER_01: nervous body sounds.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:43
  And then we,
• 4:44
  at one of these scans,
• 4:47
  I was always cracking jokes with the tech.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's very important to me that people find me funny all the time.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you can tell when somebody is like, I'm,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: I could tell that she didn't want to be funny anymore.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like something was happening and the text started acting weird.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we were like, you know, did you see something?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And she says, I'm not going to be the one to tell you whatever it is.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not really qualified to say.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: How far into the pregnancy is this?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say like,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: 12 weeks.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I again, that's another my scheduling.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to ask you any more questions about time.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So the doctor comes in and he says,
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  SPEAKER_01: your sons have something called twin to twin transfusion syndrome.
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  SPEAKER_01: which basically means that they're getting their nutrients unequally.
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  SPEAKER_01: So one's getting too much and one's getting too little.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's bad.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't intervene, mortality is 100% basically.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we went to the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.
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  SPEAKER_01: They did this procedure on my wife where extremely reductive,
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  SPEAKER_01: but they shoot lasers at her placenta and it reallocates everything.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it seemed to work.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we're kind of like coasting after that.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: My wife is like drinking energy, not energy drinks, protein drinks.
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  She's trying to do as much as she can to like provide the
• 6:14
  appropriate amount of
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  SPEAKER_01: nutrition for the kids.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we kind of think we make it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like she delivers at 32 weeks via C-section.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's early.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely early.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in a complicated pregnancy, like 32 weeks is...
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  SPEAKER_01: Pretty good.
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  SPEAKER_01: 40 is what a normal pregnancy, but 32 weeks is like viable.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're like, we did it.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're going to be born.
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  They're going to be really small,
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  but we'll keep them in the hospital for a while.
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  SPEAKER_01: They'll be fine.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: The NICU.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in the NICU.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what happens.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're in the NICU for a while.
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  SPEAKER_01: Everything's kind of going as we think it should be going.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then out of no place,
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  SPEAKER_01: seemingly,
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  we get a call that we have to come to the hospital right away
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  because something's
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: going on with Fisher.
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  SPEAKER_01: It turns out that he has suffered what's called a volvulus,
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  which means that his intestines have detached from the wall of
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  his abdomen and
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  SPEAKER_01: twisted and perforated,
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  which means that the stuff that should be passing through his
• 7:16
  digestive system is
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  SPEAKER_01: free inside of his abdomen.
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  And he goes into what's called sepsis and then very quickly
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  thereafter dies.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's kind of...
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  the speed with which we went from like joking about the twins
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  to our son has died
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  SPEAKER_01: was,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_01: lightning.
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  It's so fast and really shocking how quickly it can go from one
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  kind of life that
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  SPEAKER_01: you've imagined for yourself and a totally different kind of life.
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  SPEAKER_01: So he died at 34 days old is when he died.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then
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  Because he was a twin,
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  his twin survived,
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  survives to this day,
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  God bless.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And Truman is his name.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we were extremely lucky to have Truman because I think in a different
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: situation,
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  it would have been just me and my wife absolutely standing
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  still in a collecting
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  SPEAKER_01: ocean of sadness.
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  SPEAKER_01: But because there's a baby that's still there,
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  SPEAKER_01: he's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: guys,
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  SPEAKER_01: you kind of still have to like wipe my ass.
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  SPEAKER_01: You still have to feed me.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: You still have to.
• 8:39
  And the practice of still having to parent,
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  I think,
• 8:43
  really helped us move forward in our lives.
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  And when I say move forward,
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  I don't mean like away from the grief,
• 8:50
  like the grief is gone.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: But because you have to stay in motion,
• 8:55
  you're able to tolerate a certain amount of suffering because
• 9:00
  there's other things
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: occupying your mind.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: as I'm watching your special,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was thinking,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think it was Michael Lewis I heard say this,
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: and I don't know if he came up with it,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: but his daughter,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: his adult daughter died in a car wreck,
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  SPEAKER_02: the author Michael Lewis.
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  SPEAKER_02: And he was talking about grief being a parallel universe of people
• 9:23
  You know,
• 9:23
  people who aren't suffering from grief just go about their day.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm on the subway.
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't think about what the guy next to me is going through.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: And here's this person next to me who just lost a child,
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  SPEAKER_02: who sees the world through a completely different set of eyes,
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  SPEAKER_02: if he can see it all.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: How crippling was your grief?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: And was it constant?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Did it ebb and flow?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: How does that feel?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the moment...
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: it was constant and that constant sort of obliterating grief,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how long it lasted,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: but for a while.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And really like the only respite you have from it are your obligations,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: like the routines that you're like,
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: I have to do this.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of that is, you know, are this new baby.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm painting as an obligation.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like obviously we love Truman.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was like exciting to be with him.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it is also like, like literally you have to do this.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can't, you can't be like, you can't not do it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Infants don't respond well to not being considered an obligation.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually I had to go back to work.
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  And when you're at work,
• 10:36
  you're like,
• 10:37
  I have to make the money to pay my mortgage.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I can't not do this.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: So those things really helped us survive.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in addition to extremely loving family and really great friends.
• 10:52
  But the thing that you're talking about in terms of parallel
• 10:55
  universe is that
• 10:59
  It very much feels like there's a part of the world that only
• 11:03
  my wife and I understand.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody else knows about this.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no use really talking to them.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Not that everyone's being super nice.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's trying their best to relate or to listen to us or whatever.
• 11:17
  But it feels like when someone asks you about it who doesn't
• 11:22
  have any frame of
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: reference,
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: it feels like they've asked you to read a poem to them in Chinese.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, I'll read it to you.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: But you are not going to know what I'm saying.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to make any sense.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate you wanting to hear it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that time also early on is a phrase I've heard used before,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: and I may be misappropriating it,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: is terminal uniqueness,
• 11:47
  where it's like we were not aware of the fact emotionally that
• 11:52
  if this had ever
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: happened to anyone else.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know logically that it has.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: But no one had ever talked to us about it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we very much felt like no one else would understand.
• 12:04
  Not a single other person has ever had a child die until it
• 12:07
  happened to us.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like when you're on the subway.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's the thing.
• 12:11
  And I don't I don't ever want to experience the grief that
• 12:15
  you've experienced.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that might make me a less deep human being.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm OK with that.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, I don't want to know what, you know.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that we all like,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: it's so profoundly,
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: I've lost both my parents,
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: not even the same thing.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's the natural order of life.
• 12:38
  And my parents were great and they lived to a relatively old
• 12:40
  age and blah,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: blah,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: blah,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: all that kind of stuff.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: But like,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: it feels like it's an alternative universe that you've either,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: you've either had a glimpse into it or you haven't.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, I mean,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing I can think of that I know has a similar,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: that feels analogous,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: is people who have been to war.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's like,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to come back,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 13:07
  but the only person who's really going to get this is the other
• 13:10
  people who went.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously,
• 13:14
  there are a lot of dissimilarities between what happened to us
• 13:18
  and being in a war.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: But the way in which they're similar is that feeling of like,
• 13:26
  When I talk to someone about their dead brother who they've
• 13:31
  never talked to anybody
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: about,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: there's like a link up automatically that's like,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: right.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we speak this in a way.
• 13:43
  And every grief,
• 13:43
  like,
• 13:43
  you know,
• 13:44
  the grief of losing your parents is like,
• 13:45
  that's very real.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's real.
• 13:47
  But if it would have happened when I was 12,
• 13:50
  it's different than when you're...
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 13:52
  And you've had the and there's no regrets and you've you've
• 13:56
  been able to serve them.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 14:00
  I'm sure there's people who lose their parents at 50 and it
• 14:02
  rips them to shreds.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean to diminish or question the sincerity of their grief.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, like.
• 14:09
  the way my parents died,
• 14:10
  it was just sort of the natural order of things.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt very good about, I mean, it was sad.
• 14:15
  It was not,
• 14:16
  and watching my mother get sick and die was sadder than her
• 14:21
  actual death.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: If that makes sense.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Makes a ton of sense.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't sound too callous.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so by the time she died, it was like, well, man, you know, okay.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: But, but, but yeah.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just to add to that, the,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: everybody's grief is gonna be different.
• 14:41
  Just like losing your parents when you're 12 versus losing when
• 14:44
  you're 50,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: losing your kid when they're 34 days old,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: losing your kid when they're 12,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: losing your kid miscarrying.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: having now had a decent amount of exposure to the grief world,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: and having people reach out to me a lot,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: one thing I hear all the time is like,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know my situation's different from yours.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to insult you by comparing my thing to your thing.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And for me personally,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not affected by that.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever grief you feel, that's all you can know.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: All you can know is what you've experienced.
• 15:19
  I'm not in any way insulted by someone saying the thing that
• 15:22
  happened with your son
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: reminds me of the thing that happened to my dad who died when he was 100.
• 15:30
  Those are very different experiences,
• 15:32
  but that's the sadness that you know.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember if you mentioned this or not,
• 15:39
  but child mortality has plummeted in the last 150 years or
• 15:43
  something like that.
• 15:45
  Do you think parents back then had a different relationship to
• 15:48
  grief than we do in modern times?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have to assume that they did.
• 15:53
  Just the idea that in general you would...
• 15:56
  You have 12 kids,
• 15:57
  you lose three or four of them.
• 15:58
  I don't mean to laugh,
• 16:00
  but it's like...
• 16:00
  You would just expect that your kids would die.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like...
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: one of the things I talk about in the special is how medicine can change,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: how the advances in medicine can change the way that we perceive grief.
• 16:15
  Because it used to be like,
• 16:18
  if you got sick,
• 16:18
  like,
• 16:19
  that's it,
• 16:19
  bro,
• 16:19
  you're dead.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like sick and dead were almost the same thing.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's like you're expected to survive.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like we sort of assume there's a cure for everything.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you don't,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: if the doctor says we got no cure,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: then you're like,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just keep going until I find another doctor who has discovered this.
• 16:34
  But,
• 16:36
  you know,
• 16:36
  in 1650,
• 16:38
  if your kid gets the milk sickness or whatever,
• 16:42
  that's it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's over.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I assume that it's very different.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can only assume that people
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Hundreds of years ago.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Did lower expectations keep you from being that much more profoundly sad?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I would assume so, but I'm, you know, what the fuck do I know?
• 16:58
  I'm sure that people are also deeply,
• 17:00
  deeply sad to lose their children in any era.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I guess if you expected it, it would change your point of view.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 17:11
  Your wife said,
• 17:14
  your wife asked you,
• 17:16
  how am I ever going to be happy again?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: What did you say?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think when she said it, I don't think I said anything.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Probably the right thing to do.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: As a husband, it's often the right thing to do.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: In this situation, as with many others, probably the right thing to do.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's the scariest part.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't know.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: One of the many scary parts.
• 17:45
  is the feeling that how sad you feel right now is going to last
• 17:50
  forever and there
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: will be no relenting.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's how she felt in that moment.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I empathize with that 100%.
• 18:01
  the pregnancy had been so hard and she had done so much to like
• 18:06
  do everything she
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: could to care for these boys while they were inside of her.
• 18:10
  And then also,
• 18:11
  you know,
• 18:11
  in the days when both of them were alive,
• 18:14
  everything she could.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I had sort of thought of it as my,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: in my mind,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: it's like my job is to take care of her here,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: while she's pregnant and,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: after the boys are born.
• 18:24
  I mean,
• 18:25
  obviously I'm their father too,
• 18:26
  but like I sort of felt like the amount of,
• 18:30
  research and effort she was putting into like doing everything
• 18:34
  exactly right it's
• 18:35
  like she's the expert on this and then i'll like everything
• 18:40
  that she needs i'm
• 18:41
  gonna i'm gonna provide that for her when it becomes like
• 18:46
  there's nothing that can
• 18:47
  be done which i think is how she felt in that moment and that
• 18:52
  there is no way to
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: improve this i mean
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's so bad.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how else to describe it.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Did she feel like it was her fault on some level?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know that.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm asking that based on what you said.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe on some level.
• 19:14
  There's no way for either of us not to ask each other,
• 19:18
  not to ask ourselves.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: what if I had come to the hospital that night?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Would I have noticed him not tolerating his feed 15 minutes earlier?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And would that have been enough time to get him down to surgery earlier?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then they could have, you know, whatever.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think like,
• 19:38
  Your logical mind knows that bad just happens and that there
• 19:44
  isn't a way to prevent
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: every single thing from happening.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like we had already been through so much to get to that point.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like so much work had gone into it.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you're able to see somewhat clearly,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: which was not easy then,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know like we did everything we could.
• 20:08
  We put our kids in the best hospital in the city with the best
• 20:12
  doctors in the city.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like what more can you do?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the point of view.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean you're not questioning it.
• 20:25
  I would like to say that we are totally clear of the
• 20:31
  possibility of having done it
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: better,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: which I guess you're never totally clear of,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: but I think that's just what happened.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everybody,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: we'll be right back with Michael Cruz Kane in a second,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: but I just wanted to share some thoughts with you guys,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: with you all.
• 20:49
  I don't mean to gender you,
• 20:51
  you guys,
• 20:52
  you folks,
• 20:54
  you ladies and gentlemen.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is me from the home headquarters.
• 20:58
  This is the Paul Hollinger Man Cave office at the top of a
• 21:01
  brownstone on the Upper West Side.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: If you're watching on my substack,
• 21:05
  you can see this great new redecorated office that our friend
• 21:10
  Amy Magnolia helped
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: us with.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's got this great collage of things that mean something to me.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: That heater is going to be repainted tomorrow.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Can't wait to have it perfect again.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's my train spotting poster.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: There's my Beastie Boys poster.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's the Velvet Elvis that I've had with me since business school.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's a picture of Nixon and Elvis.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's the Revolver cover,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: a Mad Magazine cover,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: and a great photo of the owner of the Georgia Theater,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: the burned out Georgia Theater playing guitar in his burned out theater.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's my bookshelf.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: and my TCB lightning thing that,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 21:46
  got ruined in a flood in Atlanta when our basement flooded one
• 21:51
  time when I was
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: doing,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: one time when I was doing comedy in Boulder,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Colorado,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: after a weekend at the Denver comedy lounge,
• 21:58
  Stacy flew home and Sunday night I was doing a show in Boulder
• 22:02
  and 10 minutes
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: before I went on stage,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: the phone rings and she goes,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: where's the water shut off to our house?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not the way you want to hear a conversation start.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: There was six inches of water in our basement.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of stuff was ruined.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: But we salvaged the TCB lighting thing.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've had that for 15 years.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Got to replace some bulbs.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, just want to give you a peek into Ollinger Home Headquarters.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can see that on my sub stack, words.paulolinger.com.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's a link to it in the show notes.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Or...
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: on my YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Paul Ollinger, O-L-L-I-N-G-E-R.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: So check those two things out if you want and follow us there.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really starting to put my digital footprint on Substack.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: That is where I'm headquartering things.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: I've moved my podcast there.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: I have all my writing there.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the home to all things Paul.
• 22:53
  I'm going to share some writing with you about the manosphere
• 22:57
  that I did last week.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of think of Substack as the anti-manosphere.
• 23:03
  In a world where we rely on the algorithm to surface 60-second
• 23:08
  videos of things
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: that we might be interested in,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: for better or for worse,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: what that surface is,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: is lizard brain garbage.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: What do I see?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: I see golf porn, I see big boobs, and I see bear attacks.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's what the algorithm has decided Paul Olinger is all about.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of not wrong, but it's not necessarily helpful.
• 23:30
  And so I want to create more thoughtful dialogue and
• 23:34
  discussions on mySubstack
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: page.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: So go check that out.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 23:39
  I'm deeply grateful to Michael Cruz Kane for sharing such an
• 23:43
  intimate story.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Take a look at the link in the bio to go see his special.
• 23:48
  He really is doing an act of service for all people who have
• 23:52
  lost a loved one.
• 23:54
  And even for those of us who haven't had significant encounters
• 23:58
  with grief to be
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: more gracious and empathetic to those who are,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: and many times we don't even know who those people are,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: as we discuss.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, back to Michael Cruz Cain.
• 24:10
  Losing a child is one of the most brutal things that can happen
• 24:15
  to a couple,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: and it often ends marriages.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: How did you guys survive?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: We survived, I mean, a few things.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: One, we love each other.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that made it somewhat easy.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Two, we had Truman.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like, you're immediately pulled into action together.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think those things...
• 24:43
  combined ended up like it's sort of like forged us into like
• 24:48
  this like twisted up
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: iron thing that can I don't think ever be undone.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because we've been to the war,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: the two of us,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: there are only two people in that trench who will ever be there.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: other people are in their own trenches,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: but only two people have ever been down there.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the two of us.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I totally understand how it would break people apart,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: but for whatever reason,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it like sealed us together more than ever,
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: which isn't to say like,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: we like fight about stuff,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: but I think there's like,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's like we're inextricable now.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: How long did it take until you,
• 25:40
  saw the sun shining through the clouds that one day had made
• 25:44
  you feel like you were
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: going to be okay?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think I always felt that we were going to be okay.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I felt extremely sad, but...
• 26:08
  I have a sense of humor about the world where even in the
• 26:16
  bleakest environment,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: which is what this was,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: there are still things that make you feel good,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: that make you laugh.
• 26:26
  which I think is one of the things that is a misconception
• 26:29
  about people who are in
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: grief,
• 26:30
  which is that like you sort of imagine that all their thoughts
• 26:34
  are like calligraphy
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: and they whisper and there's like violin music playing,
• 26:37
  but you're still the same asshole that you were before
• 26:41
  everything happened.
• 26:42
  So like when we go to the funeral parlor that the hospital's
• 26:47
  recommended and the
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: receipt says,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: thank you,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: come again,
• 26:56
  I'm immediately laughing because it's an insane thing that's
• 27:00
  happening in the world.
• 27:02
  And so like the contrast between how sad we are and how
• 27:09
  ridiculous the universe is
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: for me is always a little bit of light.
• 27:14
  Like even when I'm feeling terrible,
• 27:16
  which is a lot of the time,
• 27:17
  like it'll still be.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: it'll just still crop up and seemingly out of no place.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's very linear.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: like I'll see a dad pushing his twins in a stroller and I'm like,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: oops,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm crying now.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I don't even understand what I'm crying about.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're in the,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: you're in the Whole Foods and like the Macarena comes on and you're like,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: why,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: why am I crying?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: What the fuck is happening?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: it's not predictable.
• 27:54
  Um,
• 27:54
  I don't have full control over it,
• 27:57
  but I feel,
• 28:01
  um,
• 28:04
  I feel good sometimes.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I feel joy in spite of like, however bad things have gotten.
• 28:11
  And even like when my wife is saying to me,
• 28:13
  how am I ever going to be happy again?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: She's so, um,
• 28:21
  Beautiful and good that like even though she's like,
• 28:25
  I don't think I'm ever going to.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not really worried about that.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know that I'm going to be.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: For me, the question is, how will I ever not feel this way?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning like, what can I do to not feel as bad as I feel right now?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't feel the fear of I'm ever going to be in.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Shove potions down.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you got to do.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Ignore them and just, you know, push.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Get yourself a big bottle of gin.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's one way.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: And just stuff it back down.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's one way.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Drugs, alcohol, money, sex.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think, unfortunately, I don't like drugs or alcohol.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Not even, like, I don't drink or do drugs, really.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And people are always, like, you know, interested in the reasoning.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really just, it makes me feel bad and it's expensive.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 29:12
  I can't,
• 29:12
  there's,
• 29:12
  I have no capacity to drown my fear and my,
• 29:16
  uh,
• 29:16
  my grief and those things.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: You pointed out some of the absurdities of,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: the,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: the Hallmark cards that you get that were,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: it wasn't quite as absurd as the thank you come again on the receipt of,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 29:36
  of from the funeral parlor but it demonstrates how difficult it
• 29:41
  is for people to
• 29:41
  try to say how sorry they are for you dude i think people ask
• 29:47
  me all the time it's
• 29:48
  like when you're in this situation right someone has had
• 29:52
  something horrible happen
• 29:53
  to them what is the best thing to say i think you're kind of
• 29:58
  like i don't think
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: there is
• 30:00
  You're rolling the dice on that individual person on that
• 30:03
  individual day.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: So like for me,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate people who are like very upfront and didn't try to make it,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: he's in a better place or like that kind of stuff is not really for me,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: but it's for somebody.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody must like that.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, but maybe somebody does.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: It must take a lot of grace in that moment to allow that person
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: to be so wrong.
• 30:34
  To so not understand what you're going through,
• 30:38
  to say something like that.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, yeah, it might be grace.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like people just don't know shit.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's stuff they just don't know.
• 30:49
  So when I'm in the elevator at the apartment building and my
• 30:53
  son has died and I'm
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: in the elevator with another woman who lives in our building who I know,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And she's in the elevator crying and I'm like, Hey, how are you doing?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she knows my son has died.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:07
  I have a situation and I know like what you're going through
• 31:10
  and my thing's kind of
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: similar.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like my cat's really sick.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people are like, how about you and your cat?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it's all she knows.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like she, that's, that's the worst thing that could happen to her.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: So her capacity to empathize with me only extends that far.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: When you watch NBA basketball,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: the only thing you can put to you is like,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I played JV in high school,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: so that's how I relate.
• 31:37
  An NBA player is like,
• 31:39
  you have no idea what it's like to be me,
• 31:42
  but it's all that people have.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember what the question was.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 31:48
  we were talking about the greeting cards that you share and how
• 31:53
  – but I think it's
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: – when people buy a greeting card,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't – I mean,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it's because –
• 32:00
  They either can't do it themselves or can't bring themselves to
• 32:05
  try to confront the
• 32:06
  feelings they have or they're so insecure about what they might
• 32:10
  say and get it
• 32:11
  wrong that they're going to let somebody who works for Hallmark
• 32:14
  in Kansas say it
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: for them.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: I totally get that move.
• 32:19
  I think what I was saying before is you're very unlikely to say
• 32:24
  the right thing.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've had things that I've said end up in a book.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: In a bad way?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't really flattering.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was an example of what you don't say.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now I want to know what it was.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say it.
• 32:38
  But I think people are struggling so hard and maybe even
• 32:43
  hurting themselves when
• 32:44
  your good friend dies and you're talking to his widow and you
• 32:48
  say something that
• 32:50
  you're trying to make sense out of the cold randomness of the
• 32:54
  universe and you say
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: something stupid.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think...
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're like, you got, you got to hope for the best.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what you just say.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry for your loss.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry for your loss.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And here's this, here's, here's a card that says, sorry for your loss.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's like some flowers on it.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love you so much.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Your name.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: But even that,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to get,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: if something like this happens to you,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to get 10,000 sorry for your losses.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the first like six of them, you're like, oh, this is really sweet.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the next 20, you're like, all right.
• 33:29
  And the thousandth one,
• 33:30
  you're like,
• 33:31
  okay,
• 33:31
  has anyone thought of anything else?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: But the issue is there's nothing, there's no good thing.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a lot of grace for people trying.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Whoever that is, is trying to say something good to you.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: What frequently happens is,
• 33:49
  What frequently happens is they'll come up to you to try and
• 33:52
  say something,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: offer condolences in some way.
• 33:55
  And they are so shaken by the idea that a child could die while
• 34:00
  they're talking to
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: you that they just break down and start crying.
• 34:04
  And now you're like,
• 34:04
  all right,
• 34:05
  I know that you came here to try and make me feel better.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the situation we're in right now is that I have to help you out.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm 56, so people are dying.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: People I went to high school with are dying.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the first thing I do is I make it about me.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard not to.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: I go, what did that guy die from?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they go, he took his own life.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't think I'm going to do that.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's like he had a heart attack.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, oh, that's...
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's in the realm of possibility.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so death scares you.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: And death of somebody else's child scares you even worse.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because it breaks one of the fundamental laws of being a human being.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Which is like,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: there are a few things you know that I knew before my kid died,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: which is like,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm definitely going to be dead before my kids.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's just an assumption that you have about how things are going to go.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:03
  And so once that's upended,
• 35:04
  it really is like,
• 35:05
  oh,
• 35:06
  is any of this shit what I thought it was?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are all these rules changeable?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really scary.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: When did you start writing or sharing publicly about...
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I started writing about Fisher...
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think every year pretty much I would write a little something,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: but the audience for that was very small.
• 35:34
  We had a blog that we kept everybody up to date on during the
• 35:40
  pregnancy to be like,
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: here's what's happening.
• 35:45
  And that blog obviously took an extremely dark turn toward the
• 35:49
  end of it because
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: things were just...
• 35:52
  The tenor of it up until then had been like,
• 35:54
  oh,
• 35:54
  my God,
• 35:54
  everything's going great.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Things have gotten so much better.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then after that,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: maybe,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I had a Tumblr for a while that I would occasionally write on.
• 36:06
  And,
• 36:06
  you know,
• 36:07
  your nudes and feelings about your the odd Facebook post,
• 36:13
  that kind of stuff.
• 36:15
  On the 10-year anniversary of his death,
• 36:18
  I wrote a long thread of tweets.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to guess it says like 15 tweets or something about grief.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because what had started to happen was I was doing comedy at the time.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was sort of dabbling in stand-up then.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing great.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Things were going well.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was getting a little bit of recognition.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: People were laughing when I was doing stand-up, which was nice.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I started to feel like, what the fuck am I talking about?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Who cares about this?
• 36:55
  And I kind of downloaded my idea of what was funny from other
• 36:59
  people's stand-up.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, well, you talk about pornography.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: You talk about your race.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: These are the kinds of things that make up what stand-up is.
• 37:10
  And it got to the point where I was doing the same material and
• 37:13
  it was going well,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: but I had become like totally disembodied.
• 37:17
  And I was like floating above myself watching me do standup and
• 37:20
  being like,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: who gives a shit about this?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking about stuff like I'm thinking about really dark shit.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking about Fisher.
• 37:28
  I'm thinking about like how all these people are laughing at
• 37:31
  these pornography jokes.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have any idea about this thing that happened.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:36
  So anyway,
• 37:37
  I started to feel compelled to talk about it or write about it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote these tweets.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: I went to bed.
• 37:42
  When I woke up the next morning,
• 37:43
  there were like thousands and thousands of replies.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, somebody who was famous on Twitter retweeted it.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then that led to three other people retweeting it.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then it became this like huge viral thing.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Twitter itself mailed me a copy, like a framed copy of the tweet.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was like their...
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is right.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like their number one tweet of the year or something.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just all these people saying both offering condolences.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: And also being like, here's something terrible that happened to me.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a lot of that.
• 38:23
  I would say most of the thread is this is something awful that
• 38:27
  also happened to me.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what it confirmed was a suspicion that I had.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: that other people had bad stuff happen to them.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't really, again, I didn't like know that.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Even though,
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 38:42
  people's cousins had drowned and people had been in a car
• 38:48
  accident and people had
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: killed themselves and people had miscarried,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: all that stuff.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't no one ever wore that outside of them.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:56
  Like your Instagram feed is not all the most up things that
• 38:59
  happened to you.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's a salad you ate and the time you met Oprah.
• 39:03
  So like I wasn't aware of the darkness that was kind of
• 39:08
  traveling through every person.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And once and they're dying to talk about it.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: People want to people want to talk about their grief all the time.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not everybody.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it depends on how far out you are from when it happened.
• 39:22
  a lot of people do want to talk about it and they don't feel
• 39:26
  like they can because
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: they bring it up and it's like,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: I fucked up this whole dinner party by talking about my dead wife.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like you pulled a cork on,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: on a reservoir of,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: of grief and people just were like dying to,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: to put their contribution in absolutely to validate,
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: to be validated,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: to be consoled for whatever reason.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that,
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: was an incredible gift to me.
• 39:52
  Like the idea that other people wanted to talk about it was so
• 39:59
  validating.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what led to me eventually being like, okay, well,
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many people are interested in this,
• 40:07
  but at least the thousands of people who commented on this
• 40:11
  would be interested in
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: talking more about grief.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so from there,
• 40:17
  I was like I resolved to find a way to talk about it in the
• 40:23
  medium that I had sort
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: of chosen,
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: which was comedy.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: What was the first way you tried that?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you didn't do like six minutes at Gotham on your dead son.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: The tweets happened.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then shortly thereafter, the Asian Comedy Festival.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm half Filipino.
• 40:46
  The Asian Comedy Festival offered me an hour or maybe 45
• 40:50
  minutes at their first festival.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: Here in town?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: At the pit, I think it's called.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even sure if it's still open.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: People's Improv Theater.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: They haven't called me.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, not yet.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Not yet.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: My kids are a quarter Asian.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because your wife is half.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is 50% South Asian.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: What kind?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: South Asian.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: We only know, she's adopted at birth.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: So we just know South.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: We just know South.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that's 23andMe reporting.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: I thought 23andMe was like pinpointing that shit, no?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'd have to go back and look at her thing.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Although we deleted our records, but I did print everything out.
• 41:26
  But I even have a joke about this,
• 41:28
  which was that I thought she was Latino the entire time.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Seriously, she looks like she's Colombian.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't realize what fetish you had.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: It goes directly to the fetish.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, that is the punchline.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I digress.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the Asian Comedy Festival.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: So the Asian Comedy Festival offered me this time.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, look, I'm obsessed with talking.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm obsessed with this idea.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do you guys mind if I try talking about it?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, do whatever you want.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I did 45 or 60 minutes.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: I forget.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: almost extemporaneously on grief.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: How many people were in the crowd?
• 42:05
  Not a ton of people,
• 42:07
  but,
• 42:08
  you know,
• 42:08
  I don't know,
• 42:09
  I'm going to say 40 or 50 people in the crowd.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Were you nervous?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Terrified.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Terrified and right.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard enough to try new material.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let alone new material about this.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 42:21
  and also new material that forgetting even that it's about some
• 42:25
  like grief,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: but also that it's something that I care about,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: which I've I had never talked up to that point.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: I had probably never said anything on stage that I gave one about.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was really just like.
• 42:37
  I think I got a pretty funny angle on pornography,
• 42:40
  so I'm going to go in there.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it always worked, so I always did it.
• 42:44
  But to get up there and be like,
• 42:46
  this matters to me so much is very scary.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: But now,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: as someone who's doing stand-up longer,
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: this is a digression,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: but getting up there with something that I care about
• 43:02
  is way easier now the audience can sense I mean they know this
• 43:07
  is real yeah this
• 43:08
  isn't just some take right but yes and it it's easier to write
• 43:16
  when I care about it
• 43:17
  as opposed to the other way around I used to think it was the
• 43:20
  reverse anyway I do
• 43:22
  the I do the show it's bad it's bad but there's like but it's a
• 43:29
  win there's like 10
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: minutes that work yeah
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: My wife is there.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: My manager's there.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: One of my agents is there.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody's kind of like, I could see this really being something.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really all it took.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: All I need is the tiniest amount of positive reinforcement.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm off.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: So then, you know, I got another, this venue called Caveat downtown.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let me do it there.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Then COVID hit.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I did it over Zoom, which was dreadful.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: All comedy shows on Zoom were dreadful.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: And imagine even this being an exponent on top of that.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right, when everybody's already bummed out.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 44:17
  And then the thing that I think pushed it yet another level was
• 44:22
  that a nonprofit,
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm forgetting the name of it,
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm also forgetting whether it was North or South Dakota,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: was
• 44:33
  offered to pay me kind of a lot of money to do the show over
• 44:40
  Zoom for their gala.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that was like, oh, well, they're paying me all this money.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Did you put a tuxedo on?
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: I should make it good.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: For your Zoom gala.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I went down to caveat.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Rented the whole place out.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's operating cameras remotely.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's just me in there.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we're live streaming it to this nonprofit.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you were doing it from your office or something.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, they had the money to make it serious.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that stepped it up another level.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: How long was that?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: How long was the piece?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was the set that you did.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was an hour.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: in there,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: I probably did like 15 minutes,
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: maybe 10,
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: of as many Dakota jokes as I could come up with.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: Just to try and lift them up a little bit first.
• 45:34
  I'm going to go ask Chad GPT to write 10 solid North versus
• 45:38
  South Dakota jokes.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I did that.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then after that, I got hired at Colbert during COVID.
• 45:52
  And then once COVID ended,
• 45:53
  I started doing the show in earnest like more and more.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like it got to be good.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like at a certain point, it was good.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: I went to Pittsburgh.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's got a great comedy theater called Bottle Rocket.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: I did it there.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: I did it in L.A.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the times I did it,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: the woman who runs Audible Theater,
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Kate Navin,
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: came to see it.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's the theater in the village where you shot.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, around the corner from the comedy cell.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: And she loved it.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: She also had a child who died.
• 46:33
  And I think it resonated with her in a way that I would assume
• 46:36
  100 percent of other
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: comedy hours do not resonate.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we bonded over that.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: once it became like a professional situation,
• 46:53
  like this is going to be in a theater and you're going to have
• 46:55
  a stage manager and
• 46:56
  there's going to be a lighting designer that took it to a
• 47:00
  completely different
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: level.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: The lighting thing was cool.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: that's Brett Benakis,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: our set designer and go Brett and chassis,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: our lighting designer.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: and it changed everything.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's what made it so legit in a way that was really almost bizarre.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because before that,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'd been doing the show in spaces where the lighting options are,
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: you could have the lights on,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: or you could have them off.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: And to go from like, I played that place.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: So to have someone be like,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: so what we're going to do is we're going to set up,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: 60 individualized light bulbs that we can program.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've got all this stuff.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy how good people are at their jobs.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like it just what you can have such ignorance as like.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: as a theater goer as to like what actually is happening.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you work with these people,
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: like a set designer and you're like,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: everything you say is so smart.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it really elevated the show.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: It did.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: It did.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it, and it tied directly into the content.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to give away some of the,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: we've already given away some of the great punchlines,
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't want to give away the sort of the conclusion,
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: but I will ask a,
• 48:19
  the very question that Colbert asks of his guests,
• 48:23
  what do you think happens after we die?
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, obviously.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: I only know that you're not gone.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that for me, my son is still alive.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: And not in the way that any of us are alive, but still in a way, he is.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say I know that, it's because I feel that way.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's real to me.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be real to you, but that doesn't matter.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: To me, he's alive.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: in this conversation,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: in his brother who looks exactly how he would have looked,
• 49:25
  and like the stuff I do every day and the fact that I'm still
• 49:28
  out here doing this
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: show,
• 49:30
  it's hard for me to conclude that he is utterly gone so long as
• 49:38
  these things keep
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: happening.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: And even after they're done happening.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Would be my answer.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about your other kids.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Truman is 16.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Truman's 16.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he just took the SAT for the first time.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's, uh, in high school.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: He's a good, he's just a good kid.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just great.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: One,
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: like a thing about Truman and Fisher together,
• 50:17
  one of the things that will really get me sad is that Truman is
• 50:26
  so fucking awesome.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: just like he'll go upstairs and I'll just be watching him being like,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: oh my God,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love this guy so much to then be like,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: could have been two of these.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could feel this way twice,
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: which is kind of,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: and I do feel that way twice,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: but it's kind of impossible to imagine it.
• 50:56
  Like the love that you have,
• 50:59
  love that I have for those boys feels infinite to me.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that it is, but it feels that way.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so for one of them to die,
• 51:11
  And to only have half of infinity now is still kind of crazy
• 51:16
  because half of
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: infinity is still infinity.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's still that's half of endlessness is endlessness.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that like.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: The feelings about Fisher live on very much in Truman,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: who is his own guy,
• 51:31
  and it exists totally independent of whatever thoughts I have
• 51:35
  about anything.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, yeah, he's great.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: He plays soccer.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: He has good grades.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's funny.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: He's sweet.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: His sister is Willa.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: She is 13 now.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: She's about to go...
• 51:50
  She's going to go to LaGuardia High School for performing arts
• 51:53
  next year in the
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: drama program.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: She's, you know...
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: also amazing, very like different vibe than, than Truman.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's more low key and she's a little more high key.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: She does gymnastics.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she's also very funny and excellent student.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: kind of like King of wherever,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: like our queen or wherever she goes,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: she's like sort of instantaneously the most popular kid,
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: which is a frightening power to have.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I didn't,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: When I was there, well, at this age, I was okay.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Both of them have always been popular like their entire lives.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was not that.
• 52:35
  So I'm always like have anxiety about them fitting in and like
• 52:40
  having friends and shit.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they're both like, dad, we're fine.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: Stop.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: Loser.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Just because you're a loser.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: My kids are bullying me.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: How did Fisher's life change you?
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Fisher's Life,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: especially in the context of my previous answer,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: insofar as it continues,
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's opened me up to sadness that I never could have imagined.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: but I think has also made me a more full person.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: The sadness is part of it.
• 53:34
  And I used to feel that the grief was overwhelming,
• 53:40
  even though I still had hope.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: It felt intolerable to feel the grief.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if I just start crying thinking about him,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: It feels good.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I like the feeling.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because now it's like a sweet remembrance of this person.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: I can handle it if I need to,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: lay down and cry for 10 minutes because anything.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows what has happened?
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: It feels nice.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful, weirdly, for that grief.
• 54:27
  It's like a kind of pleasure that I never could have known if
• 54:36
  my life had been
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: easier because both my sons had survived.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: All that being said,
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'd rather he'd lift.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: But you'd take being more shallow person.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think I probably would,
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: would make the trade,
• 54:54
  but it hasn't been without like some really beautiful moments
• 55:01
  in spite of,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: and sometimes because of how bad I have felt.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: We'll leave it there.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: Michael Cruz Kane.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Call us about your special and where people can find it.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: My special's on Dropout.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming when this comes out, it's probably already out.
• 55:19
  Yeah,
• 55:19
  this will be out,
• 55:20
  I think,
• 55:20
  April 6th or something like that,
• 55:22
  or April 8th.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: My special's out right now.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to get right now, quickly.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: On Dropout.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: You've probably already seen it.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: You probably have.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably been on CNN at this point.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would hope so.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's how big of a deal it is.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: I would hope so.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: My special's on Dropout.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Sorry for Your Loss.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, it's so f***ing good.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just really good.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I have...
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: Other stand-ups are great.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: So many stand-ups are so incredible.
• 55:48
  I don't think there's anything like this exactly because this
• 55:54
  one,
• 55:54
  it's really sad.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've never seen anything like what this is.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's no pornography jokes in there.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't think so.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: I forgot to ask you this.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: So the only thing I could think of that's like this,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: is the special that Patton Oswalt did.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: Great special.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: After his wife died.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the first half hour of it is kind of him telling jokes.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's an inflection point.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: Where he's like, OK, here we go.
• 56:24
  And he somehow and he tells the story of his wife dying and
• 56:27
  having to tell his
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: daughter that her mom was dead and all this kind of stuff.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's both profound and very funny at the same time.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: How many times did you watch that before you dove into these deep waters?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I watched that.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: I watched.
• 56:44
  Marin although I had already written it by the time Marin's
• 56:47
  came out um his
• 56:49
  girlfriend died yeah and I didn't see that one it's great yeah
• 56:54
  I think what what I
• 56:55
  would say is different like necessarily so is that those are
• 57:01
  people that those guys
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: knew they're in like for long periods of time they have like a whole um
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: photo album of memories that they can go back to and say,
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: remember when we did this and this and this.
• 57:14
  And one of the things that is unique to the loss of a child is
• 57:20
  that instead of
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: having this album full of memories,
• 57:24
  you have an empty album that's just like all the pages of shit
• 57:29
  that could have been
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: filled up.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: A future that didn't happen.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because of that,
• 57:35
  There's less in the way of,
• 57:37
  here's a funny story about this person who died.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there are parts of the special that are just like,
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: really like,
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not putting any jokes in this part.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna, we're just gonna be sad for a little bit.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: And feedback that I got from people about the show,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: when it was like,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: we're talking to whoever about trying to put it on their platform.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: For us, it would have to be kind of funnier in these parts.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I was like, I don't really want to make that part funny.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: It isn't funny to me, and I don't seek the humor in it.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: If something funny had happened, great.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be myself and approach it with a sense of humor that I have.
• 58:27
  But if I don't see something funny in it,
• 58:30
  I'm not going to try to put it on so that...
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: it can be on whatever.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like in other words,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: which is what I mean by it's different from those,
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: from these other things.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: Those are things are great.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Those are such funny people and those are great specials.
• 58:49
  Well,
• 58:49
  it's very well done,
• 58:50
  and I think it's going to help a lot of people.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: I hope so.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's an act of service, what you've done.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's very nice of you to say.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not so ambitious as to hope it changes people too much,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: but I do think it's kind of,
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: at the worst case,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: it's kind of good.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of good, and it's funny.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right on, man.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks for sharing.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks for being here.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate you.
• 59:17
  Okay,
• 59:17
  I mean that when I say to Michael that he's doing an active
• 59:20
  service.
• 59:21
  It really is something that he put his whole heart into and it
• 59:26
  comes through in his special.
• 59:28
  And yeah,
• 59:29
  sure,
• 59:29
  there's a lot of therapeutic benefit for him,
• 59:33
  I'm sure,
• 59:33
  in doing it.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I really do think that in this case,
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes I ask myself if doing comedy or producing a podcast,
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: is this a totally self-indulgent endeavor?
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: Am I doing this only for me?
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope I'm doing it because I feel like it's worth doing.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: And the conversations we're having are worth sharing.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I get a ton of benefit out of it.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: it's not making me rich and famous or anything,
• 1:00:02
  but I get a ton of benefit in that I get to meet some
• 1:00:04
  incredibly interesting people
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_02: I never would otherwise.
• 1:00:07
  But hopefully there's also value in the exploration of the
• 1:00:11
  human condition through
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: comedy,
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: both for me and for the audience.
• 1:00:15
  And Michael certainly is an example here of taking that to a
• 1:00:19
  higher level.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm grateful to him for that.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's been about a month since we recorded the conversation.
• 1:00:26
  And so it was interesting to go back and watch the rough
• 1:00:30
  footage of it yesterday as
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: I edit it,
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: as I do a pre-edit for Mike Albanese,
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_02: producer extraordinaire.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it resonated with me again.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: I enjoyed this conversation.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: So here's some takeaways that at the risk of repeating myself.
• 1:00:45
  not at the risk at the,
• 1:00:46
  uh,
• 1:00:47
  quite,
• 1:00:48
  uh,
• 1:00:48
  clear thing that I'm going to be doing.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: This is not an experience that I want.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's everywhere.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's every parent's worst nightmare for a reason.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I,
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm willing to die without having that kernel of human knowledge,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: without having lived that experience.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I, and I wish deep strength and resilience to those who have.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: Secondly,
• 1:01:15
  I think the lessons about grace in this conversation are worth
• 1:01:21
  keeping in mind at all times.
• 1:01:24
  And I am highly,
• 1:01:25
  highly guilty of being frustrated and ungracious at times in my
• 1:01:31
  life.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes in public, sometimes on airplanes, sometimes who knows where.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: I try not to be, but sometimes I get lost in
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: selfish, self-indulgence.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not as gracious as I could be to my fellow human beings.
• 1:01:47
  And this is a great example as to why we should give people the
• 1:01:52
  benefit of the doubt.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like when I talked to Thad Reichly a couple of months ago.
• 1:01:57
  You may recall he's my friend who is battling stage four cancer
• 1:02:02
  in his chest cavity.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember the exact diagnosis,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: but he tells the stories about looking normal on a plane,
• 1:02:09
  but going through chemo and trying to do everything he can to
• 1:02:14
  not die so he can be
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_02: a parent for his children and a partner to his great wife,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: Lee.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well,
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know what other people are going through.
• 1:02:24
  And grace is a really great default setting to have as opposed
• 1:02:29
  to the defensive
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: ones we too often get lost in.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: So kudos to Michael for being a gracious human being to those who were
• 1:02:37
  doing their best to try to say the right thing and ended up
• 1:02:41
  saying the wrong thing.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: Next,
• 1:02:42
  I thought it was really beautiful how he described the bond
• 1:02:45
  that he and his wife
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: have forged through this time.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: And again,
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: I would sacrifice a less deep bond with my wife,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: sorry,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: Stacey,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: to not have to go through this.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure he would too,
• 1:03:04
  but I do think that his ability and perhaps necessity to find
• 1:03:09
  the beauty and the
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: lessons in all this are inspiring.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you agree with him or whether you don't.
• 1:03:17
  the resilience of the human spirit in the face of tragedy is,
• 1:03:21
  is,
• 1:03:21
  is pretty incredible.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: Lastly, you know, hug your kids, never take anything for granted.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: Be grateful every day.
• 1:03:30
  We're surrounded by so many good things and it's easy to let
• 1:03:33
  our brains focus on the wrong ones.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, uh, check out Michael's special and, uh,
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: Carpe Diem.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, look, I'm wearing my Carpe Diem t-shirt.
• 1:03:45
  You can't see it if you're not on my Substack or on my YouTube
• 1:03:49
  channel.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: Check them out.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_02: Have a great day.