Latest / Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann / Science Series 7: Tim Pickens / Rocket Science / Hybrid Propulsion / UFO’s / Missing Scientists

Transcript

Science Series 7: Tim Pickens / Rocket Science / Hybrid Propulsion / UFO’s / Missing Scientists · Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann

• 0:01
  Welcome to another episode of Come Together,
• 0:14
  Tim Pickens, welcome to the show.
• 0:17
  I'm so happy to have you here and I wish you were just
• 0:20
  recording for the last hour, but we will keep it up because like
• 0:24
  I've said more than once so far, her reality is I think science
• 0:29
  fiction, at least for me. But if not for 95 or more
• 0:34
  percent, I would imagine of people out there, you take
• 0:38
  rocket, you take the word rocket science and bring it to a lot of
• 0:42
  different places. So I want to just kind of let
• 0:45
  you go and tell me a little bit about what you've done in your
• 0:48
  free time and what you've done in your professional time.
• 0:50
  That is really just what is, what's so incredible.
• 0:54
  I mean, it's so cool. Well, well, thanks for having me
• 0:57
  on this is, you know, I don't do a lot of these, but it's kind of
• 1:01
  fun to talk about the weird stuff, the the real stuff and
• 1:05
  maybe the weird, the weird, real, real, real stuff.
• 1:08
  I don't know. Yeah, farewell.
• 1:10
  We'll get there. We'll get.
• 1:12
  There the weird real stuff. I don't know, but I've worked,
• 1:15
  you know, doing the space exploration, trying to lower the
• 1:20
  cost to get people to space for my most of my adult life.
• 1:24
  I dreamed about it before then, but I just didn't think I'd
• 1:28
  really had the brain power to really make a difference
• 1:31
  probably than believe in myself. And I, I, to be honest, I kind
• 1:36
  of fell into just taking classes and kind of just doing my own
• 1:40
  thing, learning my, my, my whole home's a library of technical
• 1:44
  books, but everything's applied. Most everything I have it.
• 1:47
  If it doesn't say applied, I would rather give it away
• 1:50
  because it's probably going to be above my head.
• 1:52
  So it's, we got to build stuff. But I'll tell you, it's been an
• 1:55
  incredible journey And it started with just me wanting to
• 1:59
  make a difference in the industry and found some friends
• 2:03
  and we, I decided I was going to buy a lay the metal a then I own
• 2:06
  a meal machine and start buying NASA valves because I wanted the
• 2:10
  good stuff. It's, I'd go to sales and I
• 2:12
  start inviting friends over and we, we got together with our,
• 2:16
  with a space club and next thing you know, two nights a week
• 2:19
  we're building a rocket to put a little critter in space and we
• 2:23
  want to hit 50 miles and we're used.
• 2:24
  No way. We use the balloon.
• 2:26
  We use the big balloon. And next thing you know, three
• 2:30
  years later, we're flying them off the coast of the Atlantic.
• 2:34
  Got a question? Who, who's we?
• 2:36
  How did you find these people? Most people in this world cannot
• 2:39
  find a group of people I think you know, to, to hang out with a
• 2:42
  couple of times a week. And also, you know, I, I was
• 2:46
  shocked and I've only heard this recently as the news wave has
• 2:49
  hit. But you live in a you live in a
• 2:52
  particular part of the world that is very folk, you know,
• 2:54
  that has a lot of high concentration of people that are
• 2:57
  interested in the same thing as you are.
• 2:59
  That's right. He's more per capita.
• 3:01
  I think anywhere in the country is Huntsville, AL.
• 3:04
  So it is the Rocket city. I was born there when I I was
• 3:07
  born in 64 and I there were probably about 50 or 60,000
• 3:11
  people there. Now there's well over 1,000,000
• 3:14
  people and I think you said you visited up there.
• 3:17
  Yeah. It's just a different place.
• 3:20
  You know, I'd go to the Space and Rocket Center all the time
• 3:24
  and I would, I mean a lot. And I would think, wow, why is
• 3:27
  this stuff so expensive, man? How are we going to make a
• 3:30
  difference? How could I make a difference?
• 3:32
  And it just bombed me out that we had a museum full of stuff
• 3:34
  that probably could have flown and and it was like, are you
• 3:38
  kidding? This is crazy.
• 3:39
  We'll we'll kill a program, then we'll go do something else.
• 3:42
  Politics chicks will kill another one.
• 3:44
  And it's like, this is not sustainable.
• 3:47
  And I really wanted to make a difference.
• 3:49
  So this this rocket to space, the first amateur space shot we
• 3:54
  hit 36 miles in about two years. By the way, that was the highest
• 3:58
  we got in the giddiest book of world records, 2000 Millennium.
• 4:01
  And what's space? Considered that was 50 miles
• 4:06
  high, the international recognition is 62 miles, 100
• 4:10
  kilometers, but we were just, we almost, but it was the highest.
• 4:15
  So the Guineas picked it up and we didn't push Guineas to do
• 4:18
  that. It just showed up.
• 4:19
  The point is we learn how to build stuff from nothing out of
• 4:23
  the trash can. I mean, this is where I come up
• 4:26
  with the idea of the nitrous oxide and the asphalt fuel for
• 4:31
  I'm talking roof and tar that became the propellant and
• 4:34
  everybody's like, are you kidding?
• 4:35
  Normally we'd use this rubber called HTPB.
• 4:38
  It's kind of like rubber from micro pencil racers.
• 4:42
  This is what they use with the oxidizer in it to make solid
• 4:46
  rocket motors. But this is typical.
• 4:49
  I said, let's try asphalt because it's got a lot of energy
• 4:52
  in it and they make plasticizers.
• 4:54
  I already looked it up. We can make it where where it's
• 4:57
  real rubbery and and they do that to make sure it doesn't
• 5:00
  crack on roofs. And I said, there's a lot of
• 5:02
  data and I said, let's my wife's the chemistry major and I said,
• 5:07
  how much energy is there in a, you know, an announcer gram?
• 5:11
  And she said, are you kidding? She's a thermochemistry.
• 5:14
  That's not my thing. It's a she's organic Anyways,
• 5:18
  she didn't want to talk about it.
• 5:19
  So I had to Start learning some math and chemistry and I'm
• 5:22
  digging and I'm thinking, oh gosh, this is so, so heavy, man.
• 5:26
  The next thing you know, I'm we're doing, I'm doing thrust
• 5:29
  measurements with force gauges and I'm learning
• 5:32
  instrumentation. I'm doing testing in my front
• 5:35
  yard, you know, making a lot of noise.
• 5:39
  Oh yeah, man, I've got smoke coming out of the yard and the
• 5:42
  neighbors asking am I OK? And I'm and I've got a chart
• 5:46
  recorder with pens and it's taking the data and I'm and I'm
• 5:50
  getting the thrust under the curve and I'm and I'm and I'm
• 5:53
  chopping it up and put it in excel in my brother-in-law.
• 5:57
  He's a physicist. He comes by.
• 5:58
  So are you working on some calculus?
• 6:00
  I said, no, I'm, I'm just integrating this little areas
• 6:03
  here. He said, well, that's what
• 6:05
  you're doing. And here's the really quiet.
• 6:07
  And I'm like, oh, I don't want to get into all that math.
• 6:09
  And then when stuff blew up and burned up, I thought, oh gosh,
• 6:13
  I'm gonna have to learn about materials and strength and
• 6:15
  stress and the, and I say, you know, you know, but, but The
• 6:19
  thing is, there was this group of people that love the National
• 6:23
  Space Society. They'd have monthly speakers.
• 6:25
  So the guy that was running it, he said, we've got about $10,000
• 6:30
  leftover from a national space society.
• 6:33
  We, we had a big convention here and we, he said, we'd love to do
• 6:37
  that amateur space shot. He said.
• 6:39
  I said, well, I've got some ideas for rockets where we won't
• 6:42
  kill ourselves with making solid rocket propellant.
• 6:45
  If some something went South, you know, we'd have a big
• 6:48
  fireball. So you got a question.
• 6:50
  Yeah, real quick. I'm sorry.
• 6:51
  Yeah, No. Problem.
• 6:53
  To clarify, right, in case anyone doesn't understand,
• 6:55
  what's a typical way that rockets, that rocket propellant
• 6:59
  is used or was it typically made of and what was unconventional
• 7:02
  about the way that you were going about it?
• 7:03
  OK, Well, you can make fireworks, by the way, in your
• 7:07
  house just like you'd buy at a fireworks stand.
• 7:09
  And you might have a little ball rocket and that may have nothing
• 7:12
  more than black powder in it, just like the old muskets.
• 7:15
  And it's basically has a, an oxidizer that's, that would be
• 7:19
  like a potassium nitrate fertilizer.
• 7:22
  And they would have a sulfur and a little bit of a charcoal that
• 7:26
  that's the ingredients. And that's pretty much what
• 7:29
  solid rocket motors are. When you see them firing them at
• 7:32
  different people, different countries, it's this stuff
• 7:35
  rubber. But they, they, it's when it's
• 7:38
  still gooey and rub before it cures, they mix oxidizer in.
• 7:42
  And that could be fertilizer by the way.
• 7:45
  I see ammonium nitrate is another better is another one,
• 7:48
  but but potassium nitrate. So that's a solid rocket motor.
• 7:52
  Once you light it, you can't cut it off.
• 7:54
  You're committed a bunch of this in your house and your garage in
• 7:58
  the neighborhood. And we have a spark.
• 8:01
  Guess what? We may not, we may not make it
• 8:05
  right. This thing's trying to update.
• 8:06
  Hold on later. OK, sorry.
• 8:08
  So, yeah, this, this is this is how they do solids and in the
• 8:12
  BATF. And everyone was getting freaked
• 8:14
  out about people and and terrorism and they didn't want
• 8:17
  people buying rockets. Well, I said, well, why don't I
• 8:21
  did steam rockets, by the way, I did big steam rockets in my
• 8:24
  driveway before I ever want to to go to space.
• 8:27
  I was firing a big engine and it would just be be steam all
• 8:31
  throughout the front yard. And I'm sitting there with my
• 8:34
  chart recorder and I'm integrating all this data and I
• 8:37
  flew that rocket weighed about 55 lbs.
• 8:39
  I flew it to 2000 feet several times.
• 8:42
  And I'm the guy that would come out with the little kids and
• 8:45
  they got the Estes and I'm hauling around a generator pals
• 8:48
  of water in this 15 foot tall rocket.
• 8:51
  And they're like, we don't know if this is sanction.
• 8:54
  And I'm like, I'm only going to go 1000 feet maybe.
• 8:58
  And I'll tell you, I freak people out.
• 9:00
  And I didn't even think I said it's just water.
• 9:02
  It's just, we're not going to go out there once we make steam.
• 9:05
  So I anyways it I really got in deep, man.
• 9:08
  I went in from SD's rockets from Walmart or Kmart to bigger
• 9:13
  rockets. So because of this inherent,
• 9:16
  this stuff can kill you if you get, you know, if you have a
• 9:18
  batch go up. What I did is I said we got to
• 9:21
  count something different. That's where the nitrous oxide
• 9:25
  and the asphalt fuel. So you keep them separated.
• 9:29
  Nitrous is in its own tank like the racers use.
• 9:32
  OK. And then we have the asphalt
• 9:35
  over there in this rocket motor case.
• 9:37
  OK. And with all that, you have the
• 9:40
  two separated, so you don't have an oxidizer mixed with until you
• 9:43
  open a valve. In fact, I'll show you a piece
• 9:46
  of hardware real quick. And when you open and open it,
• 9:49
  opening the valve allows the two to mix and then they mix.
• 9:52
  That's. What it is, This is one of our
• 9:54
  Club Rocket. That's the nozzle, that's an
• 9:57
  igniter up in there. This is full of asphalt, and
• 10:01
  this is where the nitrous comes in, and it's all right here.
• 10:05
  Wow. And then and then where's the,
• 10:07
  where's the lever in the middle? Where's the lever that allows
• 10:10
  you to to separate them? It's all nitrous in a tank way
• 10:15
  up above this nitrous way up. The nitrous is about a 10 foot
• 10:19
  long tank attached to this. OK I see there is a pyro valve I
• 10:23
  design in here. So when you light that igniter
• 10:26
  and that pressure right there is nitrous, it'll blow that valve
• 10:29
  open and it'll auto ignite this. And this puts out about 800 lbs
• 10:34
  of thrust for 30 seconds but. We have.
• 10:38
  We built this in my garage. Man, this is homemade rockets.
• 10:42
  This one was to go to 62 miles over 62 but we had some problems
• 10:48
  but I'll put that away, sorry. No, no, no.
• 10:51
  That's awesome. That's awesome.
• 10:53
  But anyways, I really got into this and I wanted to put one on
• 10:57
  my bicycle, man, I want to ride that, that that power fill that
• 11:01
  little hand of God pushing me out of the road.
• 11:03
  So I did man, a body Glen, the guy hired to be my first
• 11:07
  technician. We, we built one.
• 11:10
  The fuel was plexiglass, just a piece of plexiglass with a hole
• 11:14
  drill down the middle with a little injector, a hole and we
• 11:17
  spray the nitrous in and it would light it.
• 11:19
  We'd have to light it with like with a sparkler.
• 11:22
  You ever play with a sparkler with your kids, you light them
• 11:25
  and you shove it up the nozzle and then you open the nitrous
• 11:28
  valve and when the then it starts lighting and you blow
• 11:32
  that sparkler out and you have a thrust.
• 11:34
  And it was like. About 40 lbs of thrust.
• 11:37
  So we were riding it down the neighborhood and we were getting
• 11:40
  it down through there. And then later I built the
• 11:42
  faster one that would do zero to 60 in five seconds.
• 11:46
  And it was it was asphalt with nitrous.
• 11:50
  And then so, you know, eventually all this Club Rocket
• 11:54
  stuff went on from 1994 to 2000. Hey everyone real quick if
• 11:59
  you're enjoying the show, click subscribe and rate the show. 5
• 12:02
  stars helps a ton. Thanks so much.
• 12:05
  And a guy came to town named Burt Rutan who was looking at,
• 12:09
  he's an airplane expert. He's had lots of planes in the
• 12:12
  Smithsonian and it was all composite.
• 12:14
  He's like, I'm bored with airplanes.
• 12:16
  I want to go to space. And I'm at this event in 1999
• 12:19
  and a little bitty airport. And he said, he said, I said,
• 12:23
  I'd like to talk to you about cheap, low cost rocket motors.
• 12:26
  He's so good. We're looking for people in
• 12:28
  Huntsville. You rocket people, you, you are
• 12:31
  the people I need. He said, I can't have NASA build
• 12:34
  it because it cost more than the program, because we only got
• 12:37
  25,000,000 to do a program eventually.
• 12:40
  But but this man right right here came to Huntsville.
• 12:44
  Burt Rutan, that's me. Wow.
• 12:46
  And he came to. 99 Saying I'm bored with airplanes.
• 12:50
  This. Is the same guy that built the
• 12:52
  plane to fly around the world nonstop called Voyager?
• 12:55
  Amazing made history. It's hanging Smithsonian.
• 12:58
  You see that? That's the spaceship, that's the
• 13:01
  mother ship to drop it from 55,000 feet.
• 13:04
  That man right there started talking to me and we started
• 13:07
  exchanging emails and ideas Free.
• 13:10
  Free. To you or you walked up to him?
• 13:13
  How? Do you mean I just said, hey,
• 13:15
  I'm, I play with rockets. We did it.
• 13:16
  We did a balloon launch. I said we did a couple of them.
• 13:19
  We did one at the Gulf of Mexico.
• 13:22
  We were on the NASA barge 200 miles out with a balloon with a
• 13:25
  homemade, they did rocket and it and it fell off the balloon and
• 13:29
  hit the deck and it like almost explode.
• 13:31
  It was that nitrous. It was horrible.
• 13:33
  But we're doing this as weekend warriors, amateurs not getting
• 13:37
  paid. NASA loaned us the barge because
• 13:41
  they wanted to see how you might do balloons and rockets.
• 13:44
  No kidding. Marshall Space Flight Center.
• 13:46
  So this is one of those programs you'll never hear much about,
• 13:49
  but. Marshall Space Flight, What is
• 13:51
  it called? The Marshall what?
• 13:52
  Marshall Space Flight Center. It was, it was a he called the
• 13:56
  balloon rocket a raccoon rocket, a balloon raccoon.
• 14:01
  So we can, we talked to, we were the raccoon buffoons 'cause we
• 14:06
  dealt with rockets and balloons and it was horrible.
• 14:09
  But we lost the first one out of Topsail Beach up there in the
• 14:12
  Carolinas where they with the Wright brothers flow.
• 14:15
  We lost. Wow.
• 14:17
  That's the one that went to 36 miles.
• 14:19
  But anyway, eventually he said he called me one day in 2020,
• 14:24
  but almost 2020, when he said, hey, I'm funded, Paul Allen's
• 14:28
  funding my program. He said.
• 14:29
  I want you to come work for me and lead my rocket engine
• 14:32
  development. And who's Paul Allen?
• 14:34
  Sorry. Paul Allen is the Co founder of
• 14:37
  Microsoft with Bill Gates. Wow.
• 14:40
  And and and and and so he's. A billionaire Seattle Seahawks,
• 14:43
  he owns, they own them. He's he's died.
• 14:45
  He died now. But he said, I need you out here
• 14:49
  in two weeks. And I said, Bert, I said there's
• 14:52
  a lot smarter Rocket people than me.
• 14:54
  I said, go find you a PhD, find you somewhere, He said, Tim, he
• 14:59
  said, I've seen your Rocket bike.
• 15:00
  I saw your rocket pickup truck in your garage when I visited
• 15:03
  you and and he and he also flew me around in a couple of places
• 15:08
  and said, do you mind if I pay you to, to go with me and look
• 15:11
  at some technology? And so I did that on my
• 15:14
  vacation. What was that like?
• 15:16
  Can you talk about that at all or?
• 15:17
  You're not allowed to. I can sure there's nothing I can
• 15:19
  talk about anything. It's all happening 2004 the IT
• 15:24
  was weird because people knew that I was into hybrid rockets
• 15:28
  and we're going to see some hybrid come.
• 15:30
  One of them was right down there in Miami near where you are.
• 15:33
  It was called EAC. It was owned by a guy named
• 15:36
  Kevin Smith who had about 300 patents or more on medical
• 15:41
  devices. You want to look him up?
• 15:43
  He passed away. He used to live down there in
• 15:45
  Biscayne Bay and had a big ship out in front of his yard.
• 15:48
  That was Kevin. But that company have is called
• 15:51
  EAC Environmental Arrow Corporation I think.
• 15:55
  But he had lots of companies. So he did a lot of 1 offs for
• 15:59
  for Johnson Johnson and they're still going.
• 16:02
  Some of the guys down there, Derek Deville and some others
• 16:05
  that are still making medical devices.
• 16:07
  You might run across them in some of your circles, but we
• 16:10
  went down there. They were glad to see me because
• 16:13
  Bert didn't have them on the list.
• 16:15
  And I said, Bert, some of the most creative guys, Corey
• 16:18
  Kleiner right there in Miami. He said, will you fly with me
• 16:22
  down there? And I said OK.
• 16:24
  And we we went down and we met and, and Kevin had a personal
• 16:29
  chef and we're right there on Biscayne Bay and they get into
• 16:33
  it. 2A personalities cussing each other out, Kevin saying
• 16:37
  we're the only ones that could do this for you.
• 16:39
  Root 10. Everybody else are clowns and
• 16:41
  and you know, so it was just a disaster.
• 16:45
  So it was retaining because I didn't I'm not I'm not in the
• 16:48
  fight. I'm I'm just eating the good
• 16:50
  food and watching the but anyway, I remember Bird said,
• 16:53
  Oh, you GD this rocket guys all think you're the only people who
• 16:57
  could do this. It was not good, but we
• 17:00
  ultimately used them after a little competition.
• 17:03
  We use them for pieces of it. When I say I led the
• 17:05
  development, nobody had ever built a big motor to fly people.
• 17:10
  None of these companies and of course I ride them on my truck
• 17:14
  and I've done a lot, a lot, but still none of these companies
• 17:17
  had the capability to do a big rocket motor.
• 17:20
  None of them. Well, we took that own in house
• 17:23
  and they ended up saying we'll do the fuel we'll do the we'll
• 17:27
  do the rubber fuel like this, we'll put the fuel in it and
• 17:30
  compete for for the performance, you know, for the for the gas
• 17:33
  mileage. Anyways, I tried to get out of
• 17:37
  this deal, man, it was just fate.
• 17:39
  I couldn't Bart's like man, I, I can't hire and ask a guy They'll
• 17:43
  they'll make this thing cost a billion dollars.
• 17:46
  I need someone's check Ted. We got 25,000,000 to do the
• 17:50
  entire program. That and.
• 17:52
  What year was this? 2002.
• 17:56
  So there wasn't anything or anything.
• 18:00
  Well, it flew in 2004 is when it all went up and other players in
• 18:06
  the game, other players were really no serious players.
• 18:10
  There were a lot of companies that claimed they were going to
• 18:13
  be able to do it, but it was just a Bert was the top dog.
• 18:17
  He was a real funded guy. Plus he's done a lot of
• 18:20
  airplanes, man. I mean, like I said this, this
• 18:22
  is just another crazy Rutan day here.
• 18:25
  That's his. They call this some other ship.
• 18:29
  That plane would go to 55,000 feet and drop this spaceship and
• 18:34
  we'd light that motor and go over 62 miles high.
• 18:38
  Incredible. And by the way, this is crazy
• 18:40
  cowboy stuff, man. I mean, there ain't no space
• 18:43
  suits. This is This is.
• 18:46
  Well, who's how's this allowed? You know, how's anyone willing?
• 18:48
  Exactly. You'd say, you know, how are we?
• 18:50
  You don't ever ask people can you do stuff?
• 18:53
  You try to comply with the laws. You end up in a prison.
• 18:57
  Cell and you you skate around permits, but look at the risk of
• 19:01
  what Paul Howen, a billionaire, is putting on the line to do
• 19:04
  this to fly people and and you're going to do what fire
• 19:08
  that engine 10 times on the ground and then you're going to
• 19:11
  go put a man in it on national TV.
• 19:14
  Yeah. That's, yeah, we were talking
• 19:16
  earlier about people that that aren't scared of anything,
• 19:19
  people that just jump in in spite of, you know, their
• 19:23
  billion dollars. They're going, they're going to
• 19:24
  do it. It's part of the reason a lot of
• 19:26
  times why they even have that billion dollars to begin with is
• 19:28
  because it is because they don't they don't have the they don't
• 19:32
  have that same type of fear of risk that the most people have.
• 19:37
  And I think that also a certain party has able to turn off your
• 19:40
  brain for a minute and just be like all my instincts that are
• 19:43
  yelling at me are just protective in survival
• 19:45
  instincts. I'm not, you know, we're not
• 19:47
  here to survive. We're here to live, you know, as
• 19:49
  they say in Wally, in the great, in the great movie Wally.
• 19:52
  But it's true, you know, and it's something that I, something
• 19:55
  that that comes to mind during your whole story so far, and
• 19:58
  I've lamented this on a couple of podcasts recently, is that
• 20:01
  Americans kind of forgot how to be Cowboys and in a lot of ways,
• 20:05
  and we've become tame and we've become comfortable.
• 20:08
  We've become confident in ourselves, overconfident in
• 20:11
  ourselves, I believe. And there's something the the
• 20:15
  combination of intelligence, perseverance and play for those
• 20:20
  three factors and that is so valuable.
• 20:23
  And if you take out the play of it from that, you lose.
• 20:26
  So the play is absolutely necessary.
• 20:29
  And, and you know what? And that's why you have enormous
• 20:32
  success from people that do value creativity over anything.
• 20:37
  You know, I, I, I, I, I look at the entertainment world, which
• 20:40
  is the world that I, that I kind of most comfortable, I guess,
• 20:43
  talking about. But Taylor Sheridan has a blank
• 20:46
  checkbook with, with Paramount. Why?
• 20:48
  Because he takes creative risks that that are so good every time
• 20:52
  that they're no longer considered risks, right?
• 20:54
  He's balanced between that intelligence and the talent and
• 20:57
  the play and, and, and I think so few people have that, but
• 21:01
  it's that that's what's that's what's so much fun about hearing
• 21:03
  your your story is that this is an old American spirit as far as
• 21:07
  I'm concerned. And I think that's something
• 21:09
  that we need revived. And I think it's something.
• 21:11
  We need we absolutely is nothing like it to be in the right
• 21:15
  stuff. Movie is what I'm doing.
• 21:17
  I mean, it's in 1947 here. It is not a 2004 and we've got a
• 21:22
  guy climbing in this thing we built in a few months and he's
• 21:27
  going to go get dropped from 55,000 feet on a brand new
• 21:31
  airplane using 2 jet engines bought off and off the freaking
• 21:36
  eBay from jet engine car guys. These jet engines, J-80 fives,
• 21:41
  afterburners, these weren't certified for anything.
• 21:44
  This is experimental plane by the way, completely.
• 21:47
  And and Bird always said by the way, said he when we get our
• 21:51
  paychecks, he'd be like, wow, we get paid for this man, this is
• 21:55
  so much fun. I should be paying you.
• 21:57
  So back to the fun and the keeping that kid alive inside of
• 22:02
  you. It is so, so important to keep
• 22:04
  everybody just fired up about the mission.
• 22:07
  And he also said, gods, you know, you're doing real research
• 22:11
  when half the people on the program don't believe it will
• 22:14
  work. He said, now keep that in mind.
• 22:17
  He said. Most of you engineers will think
• 22:19
  it's the other guys stuff that won't work.
• 22:22
  Yeah. That's the way I felt about the
• 22:24
  engine. I'm like, well, but you got to
• 22:27
  remember they, I've got the guys that are going to fly this and
• 22:30
  said Dickens, you know, we always buy our engines, don't
• 22:34
  you? We don't make them.
• 22:35
  We bought our power plants from Pratt, Whitney, Holds, Royce or
• 22:39
  whoever. And you're like, OK, but they
• 22:41
  seriously were like, OK, the guy with the bicycle who rode it out
• 22:45
  on the flight line, Bert wanted me to bring it out.
• 22:47
  He said that's got to be right ridden up and down the flight
• 22:50
  line and and of course the man, the tower called and said you
• 22:54
  boys need to get off the flight line with your rocket bike.
• 22:57
  The 1:30's you're running under are quite expensive.
• 23:00
  True story. But that's the fun factor.
• 23:03
  It was all about, you know, we didn't this thing is like 12,000
• 23:07
  lbs of thrust by the way. They're coming out of the back
• 23:09
  of this and here I am with a little 200 LB thrust rocket
• 23:12
  bike. And that's as close as they're
• 23:13
  going to get to what we're doing.
• 23:15
  Until we fire a full size motor on the ground, people would take
• 23:18
  anything they can get to kind of fill their gap of like, what is
• 23:22
  this going to be like? So even a rocket bike was
• 23:25
  entertaining and, and I was like, it's the same propellant
• 23:28
  we're using, y'all. It's, it's yeah, so you're,
• 23:31
  you're right. I mean, it, it, you know, guys
• 23:34
  like Paul Allen and and even Elon, you know, they made their
• 23:38
  billion hood again. So if they lose it all, they're
• 23:41
  going to go do something else, right?
• 23:43
  So they're at that point where they're willing to take the
• 23:46
  risk. And by the way, Elon did not be
• 23:49
  successful with the satellite launch or his rockets till I
• 23:53
  think it was 2008 or 9. Now we did ours in 2004, because
• 23:58
  it was Paul Allen. People started pouring
• 24:01
  investment into commercial space.
• 24:03
  That's where it kicked off. And was it?
• 24:05
  Wasn't Elon by himself? It was 2004, this spaceship.
• 24:10
  I bet. Yeah.
• 24:12
  Well, certainly there needs to be a trailblazer.
• 24:15
  Someone needs to give permission.
• 24:17
  There has to be 1 crazy one, one guy that says it's crazy enough
• 24:22
  that it just might work, that that is credible.
• 24:25
  And every, there's always that one person that that can kind of
• 24:29
  change the tide. And it's, it's incredible what
• 24:32
  the power of one man with a little bit of influence can do.
• 24:34
  Or one woman of obviously, but one human with a, with a, with a
• 24:37
  little bit of influence can do. Because I think, and I've
• 24:39
  noticed this on a anecdotal level, especially as from a
• 24:42
  teacher, from a teacher's perspective, that and also as a
• 24:45
  father, I've noticed even with my three-year old and one year
• 24:47
  old, less than one year old. But when you show that there are
• 24:51
  high expectations because you know that they're capable of
• 24:54
  more, people very often rise up to the occasion.
• 24:59
  But if you set the bar low and make it easy to, to, to exceed
• 25:03
  standards, then people are very comfortable just settling for
• 25:07
  comfort. Accolade good enough and and I
• 25:10
  think that when you see someone a billionaire or someone
• 25:14
  grounded like in Microsoft, someone that is in a more you
• 25:17
  know that it's an industry that I think a lot of people find to
• 25:19
  be more tangible and more relevant and a little bit more
• 25:22
  institutional or or mainstream then and then he says something
• 25:26
  like let's go to space that could that that that that
• 25:29
  garners a lot of attention and it's a very gutsy thing to do
• 25:32
  because I could also and people have ruined their lives and
• 25:35
  ruined their reputations and. Oh, absolutely.
• 25:37
  Many times, you know, the far to Rutan succeeding.
• 25:42
  It was the the thing people would say if you want to make a
• 25:44
  small fortune, start with a big one and get into this ice
• 25:47
  company. Nobody was making money and I'm
• 25:50
  telling you it's it was a it was a game changer moment and it was
• 25:54
  a big deal. We did it 2 times within two
• 25:57
  weeks. By the way, we had we had
• 25:59
  probably 20 or 30,000 or more out there more.
• 26:02
  Have you watching? You know, my friend Glenn, he
• 26:05
  was a patriot from the Army and he had a big American flag and
• 26:09
  he carried that out there and handed that to Mike Melville
• 26:13
  when he landed. And they can't.
• 26:15
  They had that flag out there. On top.
• 26:17
  Of that skip standing on it and that was all Glenn, man, that's
• 26:21
  the friend that died in an accident in 2007 after after I
• 26:25
  left, there was a nitrous accident.
• 26:27
  But the point is your individuals can make a huge
• 26:31
  difference. And Glenn was very patriotic.
• 26:33
  And that was the American dream with the guy who flew it holding
• 26:37
  that flag. It said government Zero.
• 26:41
  And it's that's brutal, but it's still in what really made Elon
• 26:46
  successful. Was it just a rocket?
• 26:48
  No. How do you think it would take
• 26:50
  him to be the richest man on the planet had he not decided he
• 26:55
  needs to sell data? And it's really about
• 26:59
  satellites. It's about networks.
• 27:01
  That's what he knew. He was his customer, period.
• 27:05
  If he had waited on other people's rides and organically
• 27:08
  grew it, there would be a lot more competitors in that, in
• 27:12
  those lanes around him. Do you agree with that?
• 27:14
  So he really, he really knew that he needed to be his own
• 27:18
  customer, his own payloads, and that was smart.
• 27:21
  Very. Smart Well, I think that I think
• 27:22
  a lot of people, especially people that are are comfortable
• 27:26
  bouncing around from business to business, often find the find
• 27:29
  ways to have businesses support themselves.
• 27:32
  It's a game. It's it's a literally game as
• 27:35
  old as you know, even agent businesses, you know, you have
• 27:39
  you, you get you. I mean it goes.
• 27:41
  Coal miners hi coal miners in the coal miners store and you
• 27:45
  have your own currency and. Yeah, that the, the, the
• 27:49
  assisted living homes where they also own the, you know, where
• 27:52
  they also own the companies that do the laundry, that they do
• 27:55
  laundry for the assisted living. They also own the companies
• 27:57
  that, that sell the, the, what do you call it, the PPE, the,
• 28:01
  the, the protective equipment. And, and then they also made own
• 28:06
  insurance company that insures them, you know, and then all of
• 28:09
  a sudden, you know, you have four or five different
• 28:11
  businesses that are all, they're all washing one another's hands
• 28:13
  and everything is supporting itself.
• 28:16
  And, you know, obviously there's, I would say obviously
• 28:19
  some potential conflicts of interest and issues that could
• 28:23
  come up, but people get a lot done like that.
• 28:25
  People really build enormous empires that are that they just
• 28:28
  kind of support themselves and feed themselves.
• 28:29
  And it's, it's, it's incredible to see.
• 28:31
  You're right, you're right. You know, when I went to, I went
• 28:34
  and visited Elon's company, me and some friends.
• 28:37
  And it was the Falcon one that was a six foot diameter rocket.
• 28:42
  And he says this is the last one.
• 28:44
  He said if we don't make it, I am out of business, I'm out of
• 28:48
  money. So he was down to one launch
• 28:51
  that made her break them. And my friend in Huntsville
• 28:54
  works for the Army. He did the small cube, sat and
• 28:57
  Elon flew it. I think it was the second
• 28:59
  mission. He said it hit the beach, he
• 29:01
  kind of fell over and, and that Elon, you know how he is, he's
• 29:06
  kind of a little bit on spectrum.
• 29:08
  He brought that little satellite in to John, my friend who was
• 29:12
  running the program. He said, oh, here's your
• 29:13
  satellite. It was a, it's like no
• 29:16
  sensitivity. And it 'cause he, I had lunch
• 29:18
  with him race like he's like, well, well, here's your
• 29:20
  satellite. At least we got that back and
• 29:25
  but Elon, you know when I was trying to sell my company in
• 29:28
  2009, Orion, after I started, after I came back from this, my
• 29:33
  company took off. We were a propulsion company,
• 29:35
  Huntsville and we were all over the news.
• 29:37
  If I took you around, you'd see articles all over that wall.
• 29:41
  They've cut my company. Our company was great.
• 29:43
  We did some great things, Elon. The name of the company.
• 29:47
  Orion Propulsion. Orion propulsion if anyone wants
• 29:50
  to look that up just for. Yeah, but I sold it to
• 29:53
  Dianetics. They were a home grown defense
• 29:56
  company in Huntsville, pretty big.
• 29:58
  They're now owned by by. Palantir.
• 30:03
  And that's it. Yeah, light us, light us.
• 30:05
  But The thing is, man, the I was ready to get out for a few
• 30:10
  reasons. We were about 50 people and I
• 30:12
  was getting far away from the hardware.
• 30:15
  And now I'm up there kissing babies and up in DC trying to
• 30:19
  save up these big programs with Boeing.
• 30:21
  And, and I'm just like, Oh my gosh, we're still testing
• 30:25
  rockets. And I don't even know what
• 30:27
  they're doing down there. Somebody's probably going to get
• 30:29
  hurt. And, and I, because I've been
• 30:31
  around, you got to remember in the 70s when I lost Glenn, Glenn
• 30:35
  and I had a company we're rolling and we're testing
• 30:38
  nitrous and Rutan calls me and said, hey, we've had an Apollo
• 30:41
  fire. We've lost Glenn and some others
• 30:44
  have been injured. And I'm on my way back up to to
• 30:47
  the scaled. But the point is everything's
• 30:50
  real, man. When you're doing stuff and
• 30:52
  people, people are being killed and it's like, I can't have that
• 30:56
  going on. It's keep you up at night, man.
• 30:58
  It really if you're not in the trenches with your team because
• 31:02
  you're too busy doing Oh yes, 9100, trying to win the next
• 31:06
  contract, all that stuff. It's tough And and I talked to
• 31:09
  Elon's people about buying us by the way, And at the time, at the
• 31:13
  time it was Gwen Shotwell, who's now still running it.
• 31:16
  She's the president, she's running it.
• 31:18
  She she was there then she said we would be interested,
• 31:21
  especially with politics in Alabama.
• 31:23
  And I said because we can make hardware, we're doing it for
• 31:26
  Boeing. He said well, I'm.
• 31:27
  Going to ask how come to Elon that that never ended up in
• 31:30
  Huntsville. Well, he said.
• 31:31
  She said Elon was in a ugly divorce and it it really was not
• 31:34
  the best time to bring this into the mix.
• 31:37
  I ended up I ended up. Dealing with him.
• 31:41
  Well, at the launch, one of his successful launches, I was out
• 31:45
  of Colorado Springs and I'm behind him outside, and he had
• 31:48
  his capsule there. Yeah, that's right, Our booster.
• 31:52
  And I said, hey, Eli, that's a great launch.
• 31:54
  He turned around. He, he looked at me and he's
• 31:56
  like, he's like, you know, he didn't really say anything.
• 32:00
  He's like, he kind of just blew through his mouth and like
• 32:03
  didn't know He's like whatever, you know, he, he, he was
• 32:07
  definitely I, I, I normally it would have been like that guy's
• 32:10
  a jerk, but I knew that's just comes with the territory, the
• 32:15
  Asperger's. Did you, did you read the by the
• 32:19
  did you read briefly the biography that what's his name
• 32:24
  wrote about him? The same guy that did Einstein
• 32:27
  and Steve Walter Isaacson? Sorry, the Isaacson biography on
• 32:30
  on Elon Musk. I have his book over there.
• 32:33
  I like to. It's the one.
• 32:35
  It's one of his first books that was out.
• 32:37
  More like it looks like a Tony Stark kind of book.
• 32:40
  I know you're talking about the previous Elon book.
• 32:42
  Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:44
  But you know, I've worked with some of his principles on some
• 32:48
  projects, by the way, the first ten people.
• 32:51
  But I've, I, you know, a lot of us all were in amateur rocket
• 32:56
  magazines back in the day. We were out in Mojave just
• 33:00
  flying rockets for a week. And a lot of his engineers were
• 33:03
  literally arrogant people trying to do something fun on a
• 33:07
  weekend. And they were really doing some
• 33:09
  cool stuff. And I, in fact, I got a bunch of
• 33:11
  the magazines right over there. My steam rocket was featured in
• 33:15
  their 2 pages and the article was called Hot and Sticky see me
• 33:19
  and it was all about the steam rocket and the artwork they did.
• 33:22
  They pointed it sideways and put wheels on it like it was a train
• 33:27
  is a cool article, but but you know it's it's it's so
• 33:31
  different. When I came off this program to
• 33:35
  come to Huntsville, they had me front page top of the Huntsville
• 33:40
  engineering put this thing in space.
• 33:42
  It's like, man, now people are starting to pay a little more
• 33:45
  attention. This is commercial and this is
• 33:47
  in Huntsville, you know, NASA town.
• 33:49
  It's like I want to really not it's not loud, but NASA was
• 33:53
  feeding me. You know, they're good, they're
• 33:55
  good partner. And and so it was this bitter
• 33:58
  sweet kind of deal, but they did.
• 34:00
  But the but the papers did a great job representing me what I
• 34:04
  had done. That's really nice.
• 34:06
  I wanted, I wanted to touch on something you said earlier,
• 34:09
  which was that you felt that there are times where things
• 34:13
  kept you up at night, where there are real stakes in things
• 34:16
  that that in the work that you're doing.
• 34:18
  And there's two ways that I, there's a couple ways I think
• 34:22
  that people perceive breakthroughs, especially in
• 34:25
  science and technology. And that's consequentialism,
• 34:27
  which as Carmelo Anthony puts it in it from the NBA, there's no
• 34:31
  such thing as a bad shot that goes in as in as, as long as you
• 34:34
  get the results you're looking for, everything along the way,
• 34:37
  it justifies it. And I disagree personally.
• 34:41
  My personal approach is you can never really know what the
• 34:44
  outcome was or how you got there.
• 34:45
  The only thing you could really control is the morality of your
• 34:48
  behaviour along the way. And I think that those opposing
• 34:52
  philosophies are two philosophies that are really at
• 34:55
  the root of a lot of the conflict that's been going on,
• 34:58
  particularly in this part. And you know, in, in, in, in, in
• 35:01
  this, your part of the world in propulsion and in space science
• 35:05
  and in because there's no question that military touches
• 35:08
  on this too. And there's no question that
• 35:09
  weapons touch on this. You mentioned or in Soto weapons
• 35:12
  company. So you know, my so so my
• 35:14
  question is, how do you, how do you, how do you navigate that?
• 35:16
  How do you feel about that? What's your perception on morals
• 35:19
  when and and ethics when it comes to the type of science
• 35:22
  that you're involved in? You know, we like, I work for a
• 35:28
  company in Maine and we have an air breathing technology that's
• 35:32
  like a just think a jet engine, but no moving parts for a upper
• 35:35
  stage. You know, the pro that I was
• 35:37
  running, the company who started it.
• 35:39
  He's always wanted to put small cube sats into orbit cheaply,
• 35:43
  small bread sized basket. And that is the that is his
• 35:48
  dream, eventually. But for what purpose?
• 35:50
  What would that? Accomplish because a lot of
• 35:53
  times when we have things going on in the world, you don't need
• 35:56
  a satellite in Leo. You just need it for a little
• 35:59
  while to see what's going on in the perimeter or in an area.
• 36:03
  Could be for monsoon monitor, it could be for anything.
• 36:05
  A lot of things could be for the military that are getting a
• 36:09
  little local theater doing stuff, but they have to call the
• 36:12
  Air Force to get data. They have to go to the different
• 36:15
  agencies and by the time they get everything back, there's the
• 36:20
  there's the, let's just say the the components are the pieces
• 36:25
  have been moved on a chess board.
• 36:27
  The Army guy was telling you about the cube sack guy flown on
• 36:30
  Elon's rocket. It was him who came to me said,
• 36:33
  hey, we need a small rocket to launch within a 30 minute call
• 36:37
  up to put something in a low Earth orbit and I need to do it
• 36:41
  for under $1,000,000. And he said, Tim, can you do
• 36:44
  that? I said, I'll think about it.
• 36:46
  And I did. And there is another nitrous
• 36:48
  liquid rocket I did for the Army, but now my friend was
• 36:53
  wanting to fly those size satellites.
• 36:55
  And then it's a really deep technology.
• 36:57
  So I'm working hypersonics and there's a lot of applications.
• 37:02
  One of them is kind of neat is you don't have to.
• 37:04
  When you're flying Mach 5 and you hit something, you don't
• 37:07
  need an explosive, you don't need a, you don't have a bunch
• 37:10
  of stuff in your bunker that goes boom because the air is in
• 37:14
  the sky and you're most of what you need.
• 37:17
  You're just burning a little fuel to go fast.
• 37:21
  It's so it's some cool physics and I'm enjoying it.
• 37:24
  But back to there's a lot of application for rockets.
• 37:27
  Look at all the commercial stuff I did.
• 37:30
  You know, we got stuff hanging in Smithsonian.
• 37:32
  Now you got Branson who they built spaceship to same company
• 37:37
  and they brought me in for some problems.
• 37:39
  And in fact, Branson gives me a shout out in his book and I
• 37:43
  didn't know that, but I'm in there.
• 37:46
  Really gives me more credit than I wanted to be credited for.
• 37:48
  But nonetheless, I. Didn't take it now that you got
• 37:51
  it. Well, like say what is education
• 37:55
  all that drive home about but he knew better than anyone where
• 37:58
  what went where and and and da da da.
• 38:01
  So it's like a sharp 2 edged sword or something you know but
• 38:04
  it's OK, I don't care. It's more to me about you can
• 38:08
  judge me after I'm dead if I made a difference and then be
• 38:12
  between then and then I'm on a journey.
• 38:14
  I'll do the best I can and if if I'm relevant, we'll let others,
• 38:17
  the historians decide what that looks like.
• 38:20
  That's sort of what I live by it.
• 38:22
  I don't try to hit a home run. I said we do that even my with
• 38:26
  my company when someone would say, hey, man, we really are the
• 38:29
  best. And I and I didn't want people
• 38:31
  to get too comfortable because accidents happen.
• 38:33
  I'd say, you know, we're pretty good, but we need to always stay
• 38:36
  on top of our game. And I do, I think we're very
• 38:39
  competitive. They got some, but you really do
• 38:42
  need to balance it because because I'm, you know, hearing
• 38:44
  him talking to Rutan, who used to dog NASA and everyone say now
• 38:48
  we're doing this cheap. And then we've got people we're
• 38:51
  burying out here because we allowed them to go out there and
• 38:55
  stand next to a tank while we let nitrous come out.
• 38:59
  We weren't burning anything, but it still blew up.
• 39:01
  So we don't need people out there unnecessarily until we
• 39:05
  understand things. So those experiences I take back
• 39:08
  to my company. So you say what keeps you up is,
• 39:11
  is thinking, I know nitrous oxide.
• 39:13
  I'm I'm a I've been a subject matter expert on it for a wind
• 39:16
  towel for hypersonics over a few years ago.
• 39:19
  But they have a call you in something blows up and you're
• 39:23
  not even, you don't even have a flame out there and and what
• 39:26
  happened? And then you got burnt saying
• 39:28
  we're going to share everything with you, keep you stay off your
• 39:31
  bikes and trucks, keep your daughter off her rocket bike.
• 39:34
  Whoever tells you keep your daughter off a rocket bike.
• 39:37
  But but he knew that we like to have fun.
• 39:40
  But he was, it was a wake up call, man.
• 39:42
  It's like he says, we're going to share everything with you,
• 39:45
  you know, and within a few days, I'm at a funeral with Glenn and
• 39:49
  Glenn's mom. And he's there, you know, and,
• 39:52
  and she's saying, Hey, did they protect my son Tim?
• 39:56
  Because I'm having to sign something, say I'm not going to
• 39:58
  sue him. And I'm like, I've been working
• 40:01
  in Huntsville for three years on my own company.
• 40:03
  I don't know, but I talked to Glenn weekly and I think he was
• 40:06
  pretty smart. So I didn't even know the
• 40:08
  details. Well, then ten days later,
• 40:11
  Northrop closes on a purchase of them.
• 40:14
  Exactly. So I probably would have dug in
• 40:17
  a little deeper, but I didn't know.
• 40:18
  But she says, should I sign this, they're going to pay for
• 40:21
  everything to come home. I think it was like $30,000.
• 40:26
  You know, the next time she asked me to come over, I want
• 40:28
  you to look through Glenn stuff. You know, there's this rocket go
• 40:31
  Kart and I just didn't, I didn't really want, I didn't want, I
• 40:35
  didn't want to take this stuff, man.
• 40:37
  It was not. But the point is this is your
• 40:39
  family, man. So you you say, does it keep me
• 40:42
  up at night? Well, when you learn something
• 40:44
  that maybe you're not as smart as you think, you're lucky that
• 40:48
  you didn't get. You made it through a few rocket
• 40:50
  flights on your bike. Yeah.
• 40:52
  And you realize, boys, we need that data from Northrop now.
• 40:57
  And I'm thinking Northrop is never going to share that with
• 40:59
  me because there's too much liability, even though Rutan
• 41:02
  says we're going to share it all with you.
• 41:04
  I did get a letter that said here's some rules, but they
• 41:07
  shared it with all the public. So the point is, big business,
• 41:11
  you know this, They're not going to write a handbook to tell you
• 41:14
  how to go burn 20,000 LB rocket motors with nitrous at high
• 41:20
  pressure. People that make nitrous are not
• 41:22
  going to do that. They're not going to go say,
• 41:25
  with your 6 inch pipe feeding your £80,000 thrust motor, Mr.
• 41:31
  Virgin, you don't you. Here are some things you got to
• 41:35
  watch out for the people that make it.
• 41:37
  No rules for a specific rate of which it's made.
• 41:41
  But to use it at high flow rates, hundreds of pounds a
• 41:45
  second, it's not. There's not been a book written
• 41:48
  on this stuff. So right, unless you go do a lot
• 41:51
  of data and testing to failure. By the way, if you don't test
• 41:55
  stuff till failure, you don't know where the edges are.
• 41:57
  You might. What is?
• 41:58
  What is testing till failure? There's one of my favorite
• 42:03
  Calvin and Hobbes comics. I don't know if you know, if
• 42:05
  you're familiar, I was when they're crossing a bridge that
• 42:09
  says weight limit, you know, say 15 tons and Calvin goes, dad,
• 42:13
  how do they know the how do they know the weight limit?
• 42:15
  And his dad says they keep on driving heavier and heavier
• 42:18
  trucks across it until the bridge collapses.
• 42:20
  And then they and then they weigh the last truck and then
• 42:22
  they rebuild it and set the limit.
• 42:26
  Yeah, with a sample size of 1 and then the next one that
• 42:29
  breaks, well, that's two data points.
• 42:32
  Right, So what does testing to failure mean from a scientific
• 42:36
  perspective? Well, it, it means that it means
• 42:39
  that you better understand, like for instance, if you have water
• 42:43
  hammer when you slam a valve, if you want to know what the
• 42:46
  adiabatic heating is and the compressive heating.
• 42:50
  If you want to know, for instance, if you if you if you
• 42:53
  take Teflon and one of these, I want to show you something right
• 42:56
  here which is relevant. This, this valve right here.
• 43:02
  Yeah. This valve is made by a company
• 43:04
  called Murata. They've been around since the by
• 43:07
  the 40s. They fly on Elon's rockets. 1/3
• 43:10
  of all the valves are made by Murata on Elon's rockets.
• 43:14
  Do you see how this valves kind of split open?
• 43:16
  Yeah, sure. This was a nitrous oxide
• 43:20
  accident. No valve.
• 43:22
  Was rated for 3000 PSI. The nitrous was at about 500
• 43:28
  PSI. Do you see that?
• 43:29
  You see that burn marks? OK, Would this happen?
• 43:34
  This happened. I sent this to Rutan after I was
• 43:36
  back in Huntsville and I sent to Glenn.
• 43:38
  I said I don't know the root cause of this, but this is a lot
• 43:42
  of energy. And by the way, this was not
• 43:44
  liquid nitrous in here, it was gas.
• 43:46
  So it was low density, not a lot of mass.
• 43:49
  Well, as it turned out, this is Teflon wire right here, Teflon
• 43:52
  coated wire. And guess what, if this if this,
• 43:56
  if this 24 volts gets on here and it did on the ground, it'll
• 44:00
  short it out and start heating it like a like a heating element
• 44:04
  on a blow dryer. Guess what happens when Teflon
• 44:06
  gets to about 600°? It creates something called
• 44:10
  fluorine. Fluorine is the most brutal
• 44:13
  oxidizer on the planet. It'll eat anything.
• 44:17
  It'll auto ignite anything. If you breathe a little bit of
• 44:20
  it, it will give you a heart attack.
• 44:22
  Really. Yes, Sir.
• 44:23
  But what I'm saying is that little fluorine in there and a
• 44:26
  little bit of a leak of nitrous, they got together and they
• 44:30
  created a bomb in this little cover.
• 44:32
  There was a connector here. In this state blew.
• 44:35
  Apart because of something silly but it's still this is what I'm
• 44:40
  saying. You better understand everything
• 44:43
  because nitrous is a mono propellant.
• 44:46
  That means it can make a lot of energy without any fuel.
• 44:50
  It's the heat of formation, the stuff it took to bond it
• 44:53
  together is a lot of energy and you get your back when you break
• 44:58
  the bonds and you break the bonds is when you do it with a
• 45:01
  catalyst. You can use a, you could use a
• 45:04
  catalyst like acetone, a little bit of heat.
• 45:06
  You lower that activation energy, the more catalyst is
• 45:10
  that's surrounding it. But it's, it's a beast.
• 45:13
  So you have to treat it. You have to.
• 45:15
  You don't just say they use it at the dentist office all the
• 45:19
  time. It's got to be OK.
• 45:20
  Our kids, they've also lost people all operating tables,
• 45:24
  whether you know it or not, from a hiccup on a table where
• 45:28
  they're using nitrous, right? Something set off the nitrous
• 45:33
  and they had a little micro explosion that that inflicted
• 45:36
  other damage. So you could go do your homework
• 45:39
  on that and you'll think, whoa, I didn't know that.
• 45:42
  It's one is the point is we're dealing we're we're writing the
• 45:46
  book on ways to get to space cheaply.
• 45:50
  And, and one thing that Bert didn't like about everybody
• 45:54
  else's solution is they were going to have to have cryogenic
• 45:58
  super cold oxidizers. I mean -300 -, 270° F.
• 46:04
  These composites are, they never worked with anything that cold.
• 46:08
  So they didn't want. Bert loved the idea of room
• 46:10
  temperature or liquid nitrous. So I hate to digress, but this
• 46:14
  is, this is the kind of knowledge that keeps you up at
• 46:17
  night because I still work with this, with this liquid a lot.
• 46:21
  Nitrous right? In, in, in, in programs I was
• 46:25
  on, they were even violating all the MSDS and everything.
• 46:29
  They were wanting more energy into the working fluid.
• 46:33
  And when you get more energy in, you can break the bonds.
• 46:35
  So people would say, well, it'll probably be OK, won't it?
• 46:39
  And I said we are beyond the bounds of my knowledge because I
• 46:43
  want to follow the rules unless we create a new data set and we
• 46:46
  can create it at a small scale, but without those, without doing
• 46:50
  a scientific statistical analysis for each experiment.
• 46:56
  Not going to happen anymore. I'm not comfortable, so when
• 46:58
  people want to make me a safety officer on something that's
• 47:01
  dangerous, I'm like, I am not going to be the rubber stamp
• 47:04
  guy. Yeah, yeah.
• 47:06
  I hear you. It's a huge, it's a huge way.
• 47:08
  It's a huge, it's a huge way to bear and it's a massive
• 47:11
  responsibility. Well, people are like, well,
• 47:13
  you're, you're just trying to impede progress.
• 47:16
  I said, don't tell that to the guy who straddles a a tank, a
• 47:19
  nitrous and rides it down the road at 60 miles an hour.
• 47:22
  Don't tell that to the guy that's a rocket trunk with 3000
• 47:26
  lbs of thrust. Don't tell me that I don't want
• 47:29
  to have progress right. They they don't hold water with
• 47:32
  me. I'm totally with.
• 47:33
  I'm totally with you, man. I think there's a fine line and
• 47:36
  I think that anyone that says that is kind of just trying to
• 47:39
  make you feel bad about it and manipulate into doing something
• 47:41
  you don't feel like doing. And that's that's that's one O 1
• 47:44
  as far as I'm. Concerned pull up a picture of
• 47:46
  my friend Glenn, say hey, here's a guy just watching the tank,
• 47:50
  little valve open up and, and it's and it blows up and, and
• 47:53
  three seconds, 3 seconds, yeah, 10,000 lbs of nitrous.
• 47:58
  Yeah, crazy. Crazy.
• 48:00
  Oh my gosh, I can't imagine crazy.
• 48:02
  I wanted to ask you because you did some homework about this and
• 48:05
  I and I would love to let you to let you off the leash with this
• 48:09
  is a little bit of the history of this of this field because I
• 48:15
  really wanted to talk about space a little bit too.
• 48:17
  And I think we'll get to space through this.
• 48:20
  But I do want to make sure that we hit this because I am really
• 48:24
  interested in the history and I'm curious what you dug up and,
• 48:27
  and I would love to, I'd love to learn a little bit more about
• 48:30
  that. OK, so we talked about paths to
• 48:34
  to our success as a nation. I can talk about the American
• 48:37
  history. So you want to go back to maybe
• 48:40
  some of the the against the odd situations that that our space
• 48:45
  program rocket program started and how we almost didn't get
• 48:50
  there. We're almost probably defeated
• 48:52
  because 1 crazy person was the self-taught guy was actually got
• 48:58
  us away from rocket motors that were blowing up all of our yeah,
• 49:02
  that was a guy named Jack Parsons.
• 49:05
  He was a self-taught chemist. He made special effects for
• 49:09
  Disney. Not yeah, Disney down in the L
• 49:12
  not Disney. But at the time it was Hollywood
• 49:14
  down to down in, you know, down in Hollywood.
• 49:18
  And his name was Jack Parsons and, and he was really one of
• 49:24
  the founders, original founders of the JPL Jet Propulsion
• 49:27
  Research Lab, Pasadena. He, he was also part of the
• 49:32
  American Rocket Society, which was a amateur group fighting
• 49:36
  rocket motors down there in the Aurora Canyon out there right
• 49:41
  next to where JPL is today is a Canyon where water would flood
• 49:45
  out through there. So you'll see pictures.
• 49:47
  This is way before, this is back when Robert Goddard was in that
• 49:51
  same era. You know, Robert Goddard was the
• 49:53
  American liquid rocket guy who got the first liquid rockets to
• 49:57
  high altitude. That was Americans when the
• 50:00
  Germans came about, you know, and they later ended up in
• 50:04
  Alabama eventually. Yes, Sir.
• 50:05
  Which year, what year, around what time period is this?
• 50:08
  OK, well, the Jack Parson stuff was happening.
• 50:11
  Early 19. Oh, it's, it was in the, IT was
• 50:14
  in 1930s and 40s. OK.
• 50:18
  This is getting to War Two. You got to remember Robert
• 50:22
  Goddard was, you know, he goes back to the turn of the century
• 50:25
  a little after, you know, doing liquid rockets.
• 50:28
  But he didn't, he was not a team player.
• 50:30
  So he only did stuff with Guggenheim grants and a few
• 50:34
  people. And he moved slow and was
• 50:36
  methodical. So he was not going to be the
• 50:38
  guy like Elon to take us into the the big wave of space
• 50:42
  exploration. He was a tinkerer and a very
• 50:45
  smart man. Doctor Goddard.
• 50:46
  I've read all of his papers. I'm in my library.
• 50:49
  But but the point is military started during War Two there
• 50:54
  they needed some rocket motors to help airplanes take off
• 50:58
  because they had a load of they had tanks on them, they had all
• 51:02
  sort of stuff. So they say, hey, you're a
• 51:04
  rocket guy, we need you to build solid rocket motors.
• 51:07
  And that was not his wheelhouse. His his wheelhouse was gasoline
• 51:11
  engines with liquid oxygen. That's mostly what he flew.
• 51:15
  So the point is he was relevant in history, by the way, because
• 51:19
  when the Germans, we finally caught the Germans up to World
• 51:21
  War 2 and they were doing V twos, they said, what did you
• 51:23
  learn to build rockets? They said from your doctor
• 51:26
  Goddard and his paper. Yes, Sir.
• 51:29
  Yes, Sir, the papers. The Germans got their signs from
• 51:32
  from from. Americans.
• 51:34
  Yes. Where did you learn to build
• 51:36
  liquid rockets? They said from your doctor
• 51:39
  Goddard. We read his papers truthfully.
• 51:43
  So like a lot of history, people are more respected by our peers
• 51:49
  elsewhere. I have a friend who's a
• 51:51
  microbiologist. He's wrote 400 papers.
• 51:53
  The Russians just exalt him and gave him a PhD honorary and he's
• 52:00
  had lunch with him yesterday, and that's another story.
• 52:04
  It's another guy you ought to have on here.
• 52:05
  He's 84. He's brilliant, but he'll tell
• 52:08
  you origins of life in the papers and the he's done well.
• 52:13
  He's, he's going to be fascinating because he's done a
• 52:15
  lot of deep dives in Antarctica with, with former moonwalkers
• 52:19
  and he. There's been.
• 52:20
  Documentaries with Doctor Hoover and.
• 52:24
  That's his name, Doctor Hoover. Richard Hoover, he's got a he's
• 52:28
  got a Wikipedia out there and we had a four hour lunch yesterday
• 52:33
  and I had an enjoyable time and he is going to tell you how he's
• 52:38
  got an experiment that Elon's going to fly to prove what kind
• 52:42
  of life is on Mars because there's certain kinds of
• 52:45
  proteins that we do not want to bring back to this planet.
• 52:48
  So there are nurse yes Sir. So he wants to, when they go for
• 52:52
  the early flight, he's, we've got some little probes.
• 52:54
  In fact, he wants him and I to go over to, to Turkey and
• 52:58
  present a paper on this in a few months.
• 53:01
  And I'm more of the build, build it.
• 53:04
  I am the prototype guy. And he's the genius who's worked
• 53:08
  with Doctor von Braun and all the Germans and, and beyond
• 53:12
  credible. He's got he's got some stories
• 53:15
  too, about some UFO stuff that happened when he was in Capcom.
• 53:19
  Really. Yes, Sir.
• 53:21
  During Skylab, the the X-ray telescope was his project.
• 53:25
  He was the principal engineer. So he trained Owen Garrett how
• 53:28
  to use those instruments that he was like at it was like he was
• 53:32
  down in Houston owned own console when they were doing
• 53:37
  some things and there were some bogeys that he said, we've got
• 53:39
  bogeys and they say come again there.
• 53:42
  And now he's not talking to Hoover.
• 53:44
  He's talking to the the other guys.
• 53:46
  Hoover was doing the X-ray, but still this was more about out
• 53:50
  the window. And let's just say there's a
• 53:52
  story there and some of these pictures disappeared.
• 53:55
  But they did make it into a book that Hoover brought and he said
• 53:59
  these were grabbed by somebody in the media quick enough.
• 54:03
  But but no, he said that, He said after a few minutes, they
• 54:06
  said that. He said, I, there's, there's
• 54:08
  several bogies and then, you know, they're like, and then
• 54:11
  they came back and said Norad's on it.
• 54:14
  Said we we copy Norad's tracking, is what they said.
• 54:18
  What does that mean? NORAD is a North American.
• 54:23
  If anybody's trying to attack us, that's our nuclear.
• 54:26
  Wow, wow. Our our most advanced defensive
• 54:31
  system or program. Yeah, that's.
• 54:33
  Right. Wow.
• 54:34
  Wow. But anyway, we're going.
• 54:37
  To we're going to get mixed in with you.
• 54:39
  I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but he is not a
• 54:41
  conspiracy guy and he told me two or three stories that didn't
• 54:45
  add up that he'll he's willing to share now and he's got
• 54:49
  pictures. Wow.
• 54:50
  Yeah, he's a good one. So I would love to talk to him.
• 54:53
  Yeah, so back to the early days of rockets.
• 54:57
  Well, Doctor Goddard was making black powder rockets and they
• 55:00
  kept blowing up. You can't have these solid
• 55:03
  rockets lighting and then a lot of them blowing up.
• 55:06
  So there's these guys that did a lot of pyrotechniques down in
• 55:10
  Hollywood and they were the guys that came together and said,
• 55:14
  yeah, we'll, we'll build those solid rocket motors.
• 55:16
  And they so they were some really kind of interesting
• 55:20
  people and they started doing that for the military and they
• 55:24
  were the guys who started Aerojet.
• 55:26
  There were several people, but the company Aerojet was formed
• 55:30
  by self-taught chemist who built special facts for Hollywood.
• 55:35
  He's the guy who got all into the occult and was having had a
• 55:40
  home. His Wikipedia page.
• 55:42
  What's that about? Oh my gosh.
• 55:44
  Well, he's basically, he was a, he was a very creative guy and
• 55:49
  he was a big empathizer with the communist movement.
• 55:53
  And he had been reading about this guy named Aleister Crowley
• 55:57
  over in England over maybe Scotland.
• 56:00
  Anyways, he really respected some of what he's doing, but he
• 56:03
  wanted to tap into the the ether and the knowledge that there was
• 56:08
  promised through the techniques that the occultist was using the
• 56:13
  South. So he was, he ended up coming up
• 56:17
  with the formula to replace black powder.
• 56:20
  And that formula was based on fertilizer.
• 56:23
  It was based on asphalt, it was based on mineral oil or the main
• 56:27
  ingredients. So you remember I talked about
• 56:29
  asphalt? Yeah, sure.
• 56:32
  I read a paper from the 50s from the gausset of the work he did
• 56:37
  and it had the formula. And that's when I saw that I
• 56:39
  said I think asphalt might be the fuel for me.
• 56:42
  It came from that that guy. And that's why I asked my wife.
• 56:46
  I said what is the energy in a, in a gram of this and in terms
• 56:50
  of BTU. But the point is I didn't really
• 56:53
  know all this history at that point.
• 56:55
  By the way, I'm just sending an old book from the called Jet
• 56:58
  Propulsion History. So here he is now, the Nike
• 57:02
  missiles that protected us during the Cuban Missile Crisis,
• 57:06
  A lot of those had this propellant at them and sometime
• 57:09
  when it would get really hot, that would drip out of the
• 57:12
  nozzles, this asphalt. So that's a.
• 57:16
  This is, this is. You don't want us.
• 57:18
  Tripping across from the sky do. You.
• 57:20
  Yeah, well, I'm just saying it took a bandit a a radical, a
• 57:25
  self-taught guy to come up with what solved that problem.
• 57:29
  Goddess reliable rocket motors. The problem with the black
• 57:33
  powder is it would crack the grains would crack.
• 57:36
  You couldn't pack them tight enough, but when you turn it to
• 57:39
  that's fault, there's plasticizers and like I talked
• 57:43
  about. So they ended up getting us
• 57:45
  through probably 20 years of rocketry because of that guy who
• 57:48
  ended up getting fired eventually and and ended up
• 57:51
  going back in the business and he end up blowing himself up
• 57:54
  accidentally making fireworks. They got that.
• 57:57
  They shot him down, pulled his clearances.
• 58:00
  And then they said you can't be working.
• 58:02
  You've had too much collaboration with Satanist over
• 58:06
  the top Satanist in the country. It's the same guy that that that
• 58:11
  Osborne Ozzy spoke sung about it.
• 58:14
  One of his songs that a song called Mr. Crowley, you know,
• 58:19
  talked about his black magic and how you went down a bad path.
• 58:24
  He's basically saying, you know, you're no good.
• 58:29
  You have to listen to it. It's kind of an eerie song, but.
• 58:31
  But it was a popular one. But So what happened is he had a
• 58:36
  big house and he got L Ron Hubbard moved in with them.
• 58:40
  It was renting A renting a place next to him.
• 58:44
  Yeah, Yeah. L Ron Hubbard.
• 58:46
  L Ron Hubbard is the founder of Sociology, Scientology.
• 58:49
  Scientology. I'm so sorry, Scientology.
• 58:51
  Yeah, and the thing about it is the first wife of Jack Parsons
• 58:57
  ended ended up kind of cheating on him with that guy.
• 59:00
  And then he ended up Jack Parsons end up marrying her
• 59:04
  sister, her younger sister. What she moved in with him when
• 59:07
  she was 15 with both him and his ex-wife.
• 59:11
  She had now was hanging out with Hubbard and and she was 15.
• 59:15
  At 17 they got married. This Jack Parsons married this
• 59:19
  girl, her sister she was brought her dad abused her.
• 59:22
  It's all out there on the Internet.
• 59:24
  This is this is there's a lot of and she and heard her people
• 59:29
  were also practices of the black magic her family.
• 59:33
  So it was kind of what drew her, I think to him somehow.
• 59:37
  They used to have a lot of meetings there in Pasadena.
• 59:40
  There was a place where these communists and occultists would
• 59:43
  meet occasionally and do whatever they do.
• 59:46
  It's out there. I mean, I can send it to you
• 59:48
  later, but I've done a lot of, you know, this occulting stuff,
• 59:54
  you know, it comes out, we know people seek special gifts to be
• 59:58
  artists, to be great as a musician.
• 1:00:01
  They'll publicly sometimes even allude to it, you know, And so
• 1:00:06
  they'll do their thing for some power and knowledge to be good
• 1:00:10
  at something. So on one side there's they seek
• 1:00:14
  the dark forces over here. You've got people that are
• 1:00:18
  getting dreams at night and like Tussla, Tussla had these dreams
• 1:00:22
  and visions and that's where we come up with the AC.
• 1:00:24
  That's where he came up with a lot of his ideas.
• 1:00:27
  So there was definitely, you know, there's a book he, he was
• 1:00:30
  reading in one of his famous pictures and, and I, and I had
• 1:00:34
  that book. In fact, I, I had earlier I'd
• 1:00:37
  try to make a copy of what that's a little bit of the
• 1:00:39
  details my printer. But the point is, about 3
• 1:00:44
  chapters in that book, instead of it becoming the nature of
• 1:00:47
  light and telling us, you know, the principles of what he
• 1:00:50
  thought were light was made-up, they want you to start going in
• 1:00:54
  a deep state of where you let your mind be cleared and tap
• 1:00:58
  into the knowledge and the ether.
• 1:01:01
  And that's where Rock On said no, I'm not going to get into
• 1:01:04
  all that. Yeah.
• 1:01:06
  But the point is, so he was seeking this and that was his
• 1:01:09
  favorite book, this famous book. And this famous photo of him was
• 1:01:13
  fart with sparks all around him sitting in a chair.
• 1:01:16
  That book, that book is, and you can look it up.
• 1:01:20
  Just say, you know, famous book Tesla's reading.
• 1:01:23
  And when he was doing that famous shot.
• 1:01:25
  But it was had to do with the nature of light, but also had to
• 1:01:28
  do with a lot of free information to be great at
• 1:01:31
  something. But that need in other words.
• 1:01:34
  Well, I'm saying you're seeking something.
• 1:01:36
  You're seeking right right to be, to receive a breakthrough
• 1:01:40
  for whatever it is you're you're focused on.
• 1:01:42
  You're looking for answers without really doing the hard
• 1:01:46
  work. Yeah.
• 1:01:47
  So this actually kind of gets me to one of the points we were
• 1:01:52
  talking about earlier, which is play and science.
• 1:01:57
  And there's a dark side of it. There's a dark side of play.
• 1:02:01
  There's a dark side of ways that you can kind of break eggs or
• 1:02:04
  ways that you wander into there. There's always a line and that
• 1:02:09
  line is very distinct. And it doesn't mean that there's
• 1:02:12
  not knowledge on the other side of that line, but there's always
• 1:02:14
  a price that you pay, right? There's just like the price you
• 1:02:17
  paid to, to to have this newfound understanding of the
• 1:02:20
  value of safety, for example, and the stand, the value of the
• 1:02:23
  rubber stamp is something you had to go through a personal
• 1:02:26
  tragedy to, to experience. Yeah, it feels like with a lot
• 1:02:31
  of this stuff, with UFOs, occult stuff, a lot of, and even if a
• 1:02:37
  lot of this is backed by science, people have such a
• 1:02:40
  strong initial vehement reaction to this.
• 1:02:44
  And I feel like some of it is founded because I think there's
• 1:02:48
  some of it that really is dark stuff that I think people or
• 1:02:52
  society as as a whole have understanding.
• 1:02:54
  This is not something we want to go near.
• 1:02:56
  And then there's the stuff that, hey, like this UFO thing could
• 1:03:00
  be really interesting. There's a lot of evidence,
• 1:03:02
  There's a lot of documentation. There's a lot of people that
• 1:03:05
  have nothing to gain and everything to lose by talking
• 1:03:07
  about it, except, you know, before it's they seem to be
• 1:03:12
  wanting to search. They're not trying to search for
• 1:03:15
  something dark. They're trying to understand
• 1:03:16
  reality. And this this shatters their
• 1:03:19
  sense of reality. And so the question, you know,
• 1:03:22
  so, So what, what, what whenever, whenever ends up
• 1:03:24
  happening is someone will say, well, how does that happen?
• 1:03:27
  And the answer is, I don't know. But the.
• 1:03:29
  Answer is sometimes you need LSD to help you get there, sometimes
• 1:03:34
  you need something to not block your conscious, sometimes you
• 1:03:37
  need to go down a path that if you can't overdo it, you might
• 1:03:42
  end up with bigger problems in your life.
• 1:03:44
  That's the that's the fear too, right?
• 1:03:45
  That's the line between playing and play in danger right there.
• 1:03:48
  But I mean, you have guys like Epstein that that have been
• 1:03:51
  very, very involved in a cult and science that are very
• 1:03:55
  involved in an anti gravity and genetics and all this kind of
• 1:03:58
  crazy stuff. And, and the cult and, and I, I
• 1:04:03
  can't imagine that these are that they're completely divorced
• 1:04:06
  from one another and that they're just two different
• 1:04:08
  segments that he just happens to be interested in.
• 1:04:10
  I'm sure that there's some kind of relationship between the two
• 1:04:13
  that that that led 1 into the next.
• 1:04:15
  It seems to be there is a common factor.
• 1:04:17
  You know, they want to call it science, but it's like dark
• 1:04:20
  matter. It's it's, it's a placeholder.
• 1:04:23
  It's not a description of, of, of a structure of any matter
• 1:04:27
  that we've ever replicated. We've never created in a lab.
• 1:04:32
  You know, it's like matter and antimatter and, and, you know,
• 1:04:36
  opposite side, same coin. Is it maybe they, they, the
• 1:04:39
  point is that that people tinker with stuff.
• 1:04:44
  And the thing about tinkering with, with advanced science, you
• 1:04:47
  got to remember we barely have an image of even an electron, by
• 1:04:51
  the way, we, we, we, we theorize.
• 1:04:54
  This is why they put physics in philosophy.
• 1:04:56
  By the way, if you ever want to know what physics, yes, it is.
• 1:05:00
  If you go to college and you take physics, it's in the
• 1:05:02
  philosophy department. I didn't know that.
• 1:05:05
  Yeah, because historically it's been all about what you think's
• 1:05:10
  going to happen in the science and the you apply.
• 1:05:12
  I mean, you're trying to stitch together, but it has to do
• 1:05:15
  everything with the formation of the universe all the way down to
• 1:05:17
  the particles that that we interact with.
• 1:05:20
  It's all of it. But at the same time, you bring
• 1:05:22
  math in as you find more information and data and you try
• 1:05:26
  to stitch together theories. But it's really those two are in
• 1:05:30
  the, in this philosophy department.
• 1:05:32
  And, and the point is we, we, we, we, we play with a lot of
• 1:05:37
  things that we can't see. We do it all the time.
• 1:05:39
  I mean that, you know, go in a hospital, a lot of devices
• 1:05:42
  operate well, it's an MRI or whatever.
• 1:05:44
  They know the behavior of different particles and they
• 1:05:48
  know how to spin them and and they know how to get certain
• 1:05:51
  effects and they know how to get, you know, just to visualize
• 1:05:54
  it really good and see it with detail enough to know, well,
• 1:05:58
  that's cancer. That's something else.
• 1:06:00
  And but a lot of it, if people nowadays can buy a lot of
• 1:06:04
  surplus stuff, for instance, parts from MRI's high voltage
• 1:06:08
  power supplies, they can get those and they can take them
• 1:06:11
  home and they can do discharge, They can do discharge voltages.
• 1:06:16
  That could be 2 and 3,000,000 volts.
• 1:06:18
  They can make big Tesla calls. They can create a lot of
• 1:06:22
  ionizing radiation. By the way.
• 1:06:25
  Do they have a detector? Probably not, because the pulse
• 1:06:29
  is so short you probably would never pick it up on cheap
• 1:06:32
  equipment. I'm talking about a little
• 1:06:34
  handheld dosometer. That's probably not going to do
• 1:06:37
  it. But I'm saying all this because
• 1:06:40
  there are physics that we don't just because you, you know, a
• 1:06:44
  little bit and you got a little bit of money, you could really
• 1:06:47
  get yourself in trouble. I have a friend who died of
• 1:06:50
  brain cancer. He was a, he was a genius, very
• 1:06:52
  much about 300 patents. His name is Larry Fullerton
• 1:06:55
  right here in town. And I didn't know he passed
• 1:06:57
  away, but I saw a bunch of cool books and some Transformers, big
• 1:07:01
  capacitors, powerful capacitors on Facebook and I said who, who
• 1:07:05
  would have these? So I went, I knew the guy and he
• 1:07:09
  said well, the family passed away, the stuff he didn't want.
• 1:07:12
  So I ended up with a lot of his library and they were particle
• 1:07:15
  physics, they were magnetic fields.
• 1:07:17
  It was a lot of obscure stuff, a lot of notes.
• 1:07:20
  He signed every book and I have part of that here, most of it.
• 1:07:23
  And I have his, I have his stuff.
• 1:07:25
  I'm like, who would have a freaking capacitor?
• 1:07:27
  4000 volts or 30,000 volts that has 600 kilojoules of purple?
• 1:07:34
  Larry was had programmable magnet company, but Larry that
• 1:07:38
  brain cancer and by the way, and some of the Larry stuff.
• 1:07:40
  I have a nice lab X-ray machine from from a laboratory and he
• 1:07:45
  had plates, old photograph plates.
• 1:07:48
  So Larry was definitely in some of these books of his.
• 1:07:52
  They tell you how to do photography type with the high
• 1:07:56
  frequency particles. How did and what what's it take
• 1:07:59
  them with with gamma, gamma, alpha, beta, all the stuff that
• 1:08:03
  you can't see. The point is, he was playing
• 1:08:06
  with all that. Right.
• 1:08:08
  What implications does that? Does that mean for For what it?
• 1:08:11
  Means is Larry. Larry was a, he's like, you
• 1:08:14
  know, some people that I've interacted with through Amy,
• 1:08:18
  Amy, you know, Etheridge Eskridge, Sorry, but you know,
• 1:08:23
  I, I came on her board and I got to meet a lot of people that she
• 1:08:27
  was doing projects with. Everybody thinks Amy's got to be
• 1:08:30
  the scientist. Amy is the business person who
• 1:08:33
  has a very good accolade for what people are doing in the
• 1:08:38
  businesses and. She she wasn't, she was more of
• 1:08:41
  a business. Woman, she had, she had, she had
• 1:08:43
  a advanced degrees, but she didn't get a PhD in physics like
• 1:08:47
  her daddy. And her daddy was a genius,
• 1:08:50
  Richard, and I know him. I met him before I knew her
• 1:08:53
  through my dad who's a physicist.
• 1:08:55
  He was doing advanced plasma physics and he met saw papers of
• 1:09:00
  Mr. Etheridge and he said, Tim, you got to meet this guy.
• 1:09:03
  He's not like other people. He's very applied.
• 1:09:06
  I don't waste your time much. I was running my business at the
• 1:09:09
  time and my dad was building me high voltage sparkers for Bob
• 1:09:13
  Bigelow for the space to light it.
• 1:09:15
  And he wouldn't talk to Richard about measuring high voltage
• 1:09:18
  plasma without affecting the power out.
• 1:09:21
  How do you how do you measure the power without, you know,
• 1:09:24
  it's like, you know, looking at a particle and not affecting the
• 1:09:28
  the outcome. But he said Richard is a genius.
• 1:09:31
  He said tell him you got to meet him.
• 1:09:32
  So went out there and he was working for Doctor Cole in the
• 1:09:36
  Advanced Propulsion group. They were actually trying to get
• 1:09:39
  antimatter in a container and it was very controversial.
• 1:09:43
  What's antimatter? Well, it's the well, there's
• 1:09:46
  matter than they think. There's the the antiparticles
• 1:09:49
  for different kinds of matter, but it was a very controversial
• 1:09:53
  thing where they thought it could create, some people
• 1:09:56
  thought you'd end up with a black hole and you could suck
• 1:09:58
  the local suck us up locally in a black hole.
• 1:10:02
  There were, you can look it up about the work that Marshall was
• 1:10:05
  looking at, but there were a lot of people scared to death and in
• 1:10:08
  the world about them doing that. They they shut that down, but
• 1:10:13
  they were doing the Ning Li experiment with the magnets that
• 1:10:16
  she was the one who formulated that she could reduce gravity by
• 1:10:20
  spending this super magnet and she can reduce gravity by 3%.
• 1:10:24
  And they ended up building copies of that.
• 1:10:26
  Richard Amy's dad and a guy named Glenn Robertson, he's a
• 1:10:31
  good friend of mine. He's still doing magnets today.
• 1:10:33
  He's retired. These guys are still very busy
• 1:10:36
  doing research on their own. Yeah, no, they never stopped.
• 1:10:39
  They're going to die doing research.
• 1:10:41
  They haven't stopped and they'll do it on their budgets are
• 1:10:44
  sometimes people will come and fund them.
• 1:10:46
  And that's a real problem because people that are genius
• 1:10:50
  that worked some very serious programs, a lot of those people
• 1:10:54
  usually get swept up by the Mick or military military industrial
• 1:10:58
  complex. And they have a lot of fun with
• 1:11:00
  some careers playing with stuff they could only dream of.
• 1:11:03
  But these guys are NASAM. So they're more commercial, but
• 1:11:07
  they're still doing some really on the edge stuff and they
• 1:11:11
  can't. But but The thing is, Amy was
• 1:11:13
  willing to take their brains and do some real way out physics and
• 1:11:19
  commercialize it and give it to the world.
• 1:11:21
  What you do, what we're trying to accomplish.
• 1:11:23
  Well, that was the the that was an antenna system that he
• 1:11:28
  developed using some bismuth and some other materials that would
• 1:11:31
  have had some unusual effects about.
• 1:11:35
  There were there were there were mass change effects with this
• 1:11:39
  device, let's say. Yeah, just imagine you having a
• 1:11:44
  type of antenna that you could point to, let's say the moon and
• 1:11:48
  you're you're weighing this thing, by the way, it's battery
• 1:11:51
  powered. You're weighing it and you're
• 1:11:53
  seeing mass changes when you point to different.
• 1:11:56
  Bodies mass changes. Weight.
• 1:12:00
  Of a change in gravity around that mass.
• 1:12:02
  There's a change happening local that they could be up to 3 and
• 1:12:06
  4%. And with.
• 1:12:09
  Don't it, don't ask me the physics, I can just tell you it
• 1:12:12
  gets pretty heavy duty has to do with the materials meta
• 1:12:15
  materials has to do with spin, spin of of of particles and.
• 1:12:21
  But I'm I'm, I'm sorry, I'm just, I'm, I'm trying to
• 1:12:23
  understand what the consequences of what it means.
• 1:12:26
  No, I'm saying. Less gravity.
• 1:12:28
  What does that mean? That mean you can jump higher.
• 1:12:30
  That mean well, it could mean a lot of things.
• 1:12:32
  You know, some people reduce gravity local with eye on wind.
• 1:12:36
  OK, that's hot voltage plasma and it's accelerating One
• 1:12:40
  Direction and it's air, it's moving air, it's plasma, it's
• 1:12:44
  turning it the nitrogen into, you know, to to to hot, hot gas
• 1:12:49
  glowing light glowing, you know, plot and they're moving it to
• 1:12:54
  from like, you know, electrode to an anode or what, or vice
• 1:12:57
  versa. But that mean that is an example
• 1:13:00
  of people quote. It looks like mass is changing
• 1:13:03
  if you're if you're measuring thrust.
• 1:13:05
  So what I'm just saying is there were a lot of interesting claims
• 1:13:11
  that her dad spent a lot of time on in this area.
• 1:13:14
  He didn't do it to fool himself. I can assure you he don't.
• 1:13:18
  He's not like, hey, in this cool, let me fake you.
• 1:13:22
  He's not, he's a scientist. He's not a man of words.
• 1:13:25
  He didn't speak a lot. He's just very, very into it.
• 1:13:28
  And so is Tony. Tony's the same way now.
• 1:13:31
  He'll be speaking at AUAP conference in Canada.
• 1:13:34
  Tony, about this. We Tony Robertson, Glenn
• 1:13:39
  Robertson Tony, He's he's presenting up at Canada in a few
• 1:13:44
  months. It'd be a UAP conference.
• 1:13:46
  He's speaking about this project.
• 1:13:48
  He and I've been working together.
• 1:13:51
  I'm I'm more of a force multiplier when it comes to
• 1:13:55
  acquisition of various hardware to do testing, actually loan
• 1:14:00
  stuff. I find unique stuff and I I make
• 1:14:04
  sure he's got what he needs to do the work.
• 1:14:06
  Very cool and I don't. Charge or it's just purely I
• 1:14:10
  hope I hope we can redo. It's a it's an experiment that
• 1:14:14
  Pod Lekov did. If you look that guy up, he was.
• 1:14:18
  Who? Bob Who?
• 1:14:19
  Pod Pi think it's POD pod Lekov. Just look up Gravity, our pulse
• 1:14:25
  gravity experiment with the pod Lekov.
• 1:14:29
  OK, I'll take a look into that. Yeah, give me a lot of rabbit
• 1:14:32
  holes. Wired article written by a guy
• 1:14:34
  named Platt who writes who wrote for Wired and others.
• 1:14:39
  He wrote about it. He went and visited the guy.
• 1:14:42
  The problem is Glenn has figured out some things that weren't
• 1:14:46
  probably shared properly. And he is very smart.
• 1:14:49
  He'd make superconductor magnets at home, very large ones.
• 1:14:52
  And he's very, he knows what he's doing and he's got several
• 1:14:56
  patents, but he is so committed to, to exploring these lanes.
• 1:15:01
  We're talking, you know, pulse power, the ability to, you know,
• 1:15:06
  to to to create a little gravity wave and and, you know, maybe
• 1:15:10
  dent something or do something unique.
• 1:15:12
  So, so we'll see you know, but when you're working on that
• 1:15:16
  would be that. Could be used as an as a weapon
• 1:15:19
  I don't be using. You know, somebody could
• 1:15:21
  probably use that as a weapon, you know, but that's not his
• 1:15:25
  interest. He's he's interested in
• 1:15:27
  propulsion to get kind of get off the planet and do some
• 1:15:30
  really make some breakthroughs. The problem here is these are
• 1:15:35
  all so closely tied together. Weapon pulse, pulse, something
• 1:15:39
  one way, something moves the opposite direction.
• 1:15:42
  It's all depend on how you use it, what's what, what's
• 1:15:46
  stationary, and what's moving. And.
• 1:15:49
  It's getting in the wrong lanes and this is the problem.
• 1:15:53
  You know, you're, you're smart guys like that.
• 1:15:56
  People can nowadays do some amazing stuff with what they can
• 1:16:00
  find on eBay and networking and they're doing some crazy physics
• 1:16:04
  at their homes, man. And I think in the government,
• 1:16:07
  they know that these folks are are probably skating around some
• 1:16:11
  interesting stuff and they're keeping an eye on it, I'm sure.
• 1:16:14
  Because. You know, if you go after a
• 1:16:16
  patent, as you know, you know, you do medical devices and
• 1:16:20
  things. If you get in the wrong lane,
• 1:16:22
  you know, they won't give you a patent on some stuff that's
• 1:16:25
  pretty too close to. Yeah, that's the law, man.
• 1:16:28
  They're not going to, they're not going to let you get in
• 1:16:30
  those lanes. And I think, plus, I think
• 1:16:33
  they're crazy people who think you're hiding something.
• 1:16:36
  And they're out there, too. You know, some of the people
• 1:16:38
  that have killed famous people, they weren't, they were willing
• 1:16:41
  to be famous to take it out. Someone who looked like they
• 1:16:45
  were doing something amazing. There's just always reasons,
• 1:16:48
  people, you know? Bigelow has seen all flavors of
• 1:16:52
  those people. Hey, can you can you tell me who
• 1:16:55
  Robert Bigelow is? Was a guy when he was a kid,
• 1:16:59
  when he was a kid, his parents both had experience with a UFO
• 1:17:02
  in the desert and it was very close and, and they talked about
• 1:17:07
  it. And Bob I think later saw
• 1:17:09
  something too. And he said, someday I'm going
• 1:17:12
  to be rich enough to go out to the stars and I'm going to
• 1:17:15
  figure out how to do it. And he couldn't make his money.
• 1:17:19
  He had to get in the business of budget suites, a hotel, to make
• 1:17:22
  enough money to do space. So he became a billionaire.
• 1:17:25
  And and I met Bob at some conferences, space conferences.
• 1:17:30
  What was he like? Bob Bigelow is.
• 1:17:33
  Like he's. Still, he's an impatient man.
• 1:17:36
  He wants, if you watch him, if you, if you listen to why he got
• 1:17:40
  out of the sold skinwalker, if you ever watch that, good,
• 1:17:44
  because he'd say we had, you know, the best equipment,
• 1:17:47
  observing phenomena. And we we, it just kept
• 1:17:51
  changing. He says, you know, I'm not a
• 1:17:53
  patient man. He said nothing made sense.
• 1:17:56
  He said, you know, we tried this.
• 1:17:58
  We try to reproduce the same experiment.
• 1:17:59
  By the way, I don't buy these, but a patient man, he spent his
• 1:18:03
  entire life with one goal, one singular goal.
• 1:18:05
  Yeah, but he really believed we wrap enough science equipment
• 1:18:09
  and the right team around it. You're going to get to the
• 1:18:11
  bottom of it and you're going to see how you can exploit this for
• 1:18:14
  your own use. Maybe there's something here.
• 1:18:16
  That's what you do. You look for outliers and
• 1:18:18
  physics and say I'm going to go study that because it doesn't
• 1:18:21
  add up. I don't know the answer, but
• 1:18:23
  we're going to do much testing, try to reproduce it like like a
• 1:18:26
  lightning bolts with rocks moving and all that stuff where
• 1:18:30
  they prove some of that stuff. Why?
• 1:18:32
  Why that happens. But these are the outliers where
• 1:18:34
  Bob wanted to know and right now what's Skinwalker?
• 1:18:37
  They're out there poking the bear.
• 1:18:39
  They don't really know what the poking they're they're getting
• 1:18:42
  results. They're getting stuff from the
• 1:18:45
  battle. Got cattle at wrestling.
• 1:18:48
  You got to, they're cut up with a laser and they're, you know,
• 1:18:51
  it's just bananas, man. And they're calling themselves
• 1:18:55
  scientists. I know Travis Taylor, he is a
• 1:18:57
  scientist. I was on the Rocket Sea Redneck
• 1:18:59
  TV show with him by the way, for the.
• 1:19:01
  Is he the gentleman that bought that bought the?
• 1:19:04
  No, that's Brandon Frugal. Oh yes, I just heard him on
• 1:19:07
  Real. Estate.
• 1:19:08
  Real estate guy. I just heard four hours.
• 1:19:10
  AGO Travis Travis Taylor has three PhDs.
• 1:19:13
  He's from Huntsville. He worked for the Army, some DC
• 1:19:16
  held a lot of clearances. He's a bright man, but I'm
• 1:19:20
  telling you, they they are getting their minds blown out
• 1:19:24
  there. The other day Travis said, I
• 1:19:27
  think I know why we're all having horrible nightmares since
• 1:19:30
  we started doing the ranch. He's I used to never have
• 1:19:32
  dreams. He said they're the worst
• 1:19:34
  nightmares. We always have them at the
• 1:19:36
  ranch. He's saying this on on on
• 1:19:38
  podcast or something. He said, well, there's a lot of
• 1:19:41
  X-ray. I'm not X-ray.
• 1:19:42
  There's a lot of microwave, high, high-powered microwave
• 1:19:46
  energy in that, in that down in that area, for whatever reason,
• 1:19:49
  we don't know where it's coming from, he said.
• 1:19:50
  But it messes with you. So they're in a soup of a lot of
• 1:19:55
  broad spectrum radiation and it's, it's bananas.
• 1:19:58
  You know, he got hit with gamma ray while he was down there,
• 1:20:01
  came out of a well with his leg, with his hand, his head.
• 1:20:06
  He had he got cancer. He showed me the UA Peacock and
• 1:20:09
  he said that I had to get this cut off.
• 1:20:12
  And I said what do you think's going on?
• 1:20:13
  And he said he said I don't know, but my dosometer went off.
• 1:20:17
  I was wearing and it showed gamma and he said I started
• 1:20:20
  slamming beers to get get my system flushed.
• 1:20:24
  He said he was peeing, peeing black the next day at the
• 1:20:28
  hospital and it was real. You know, people think all this
• 1:20:31
  stuff is purely staged. It's it is scripted TV to a
• 1:20:35
  degree. There is a a flow that
• 1:20:37
  somebody's managing and they're stitching it together.
• 1:20:40
  But I'm not saying it's lies. It's let's launch a rocket and
• 1:20:44
  see what happens. OK.
• 1:20:45
  You're watching it bounce off something.
• 1:20:47
  Yeah, that stuff. So, so Bob, Bob eventually, and
• 1:20:52
  by the way, I spoke to, I'm not going to call his name, but a
• 1:20:56
  guy who did IT with Bob for many years at home and elsewhere,
• 1:21:00
  probably too much, but he was a good guy.
• 1:21:02
  We talked and it's I say he said, I said, wait, what can you
• 1:21:05
  tell me about the ranch man? You remember I'm a contractor
• 1:21:08
  building rocket motors for Bigelow for his space station
• 1:21:12
  Orion. And I'm the I'm the chief
• 1:21:15
  engineer. He said, you step down as
• 1:21:16
  president, you're going to do this or I'm not giving you the
• 1:21:19
  $4.8 million contract. I said absolutely going to do
• 1:21:23
  it. So I got to talk to his guards.
• 1:21:26
  A lot of them were special forces out of the military.
• 1:21:28
  I mean, there's guards everywhere out there, by the
• 1:21:30
  way, right? Barbed wire fields.
• 1:21:32
  And they would tell me, I said, you've been out of the ranch.
• 1:21:34
  They said, yeah, I spent two months.
• 1:21:36
  I hate it out there. Well, what?
• 1:21:38
  Well, it's a lot of boring, but a lot of crazy.
• 1:21:40
  What? It's crazy.
• 1:21:41
  He said, well, we might go to the grocery store.
• 1:21:43
  We got groceries everywhere. And we come in, we set them down
• 1:21:46
  walking next room, they're all over the floor, cabinets are
• 1:21:48
  open, just stuff, stuff like that.
• 1:21:50
  So Bob says Poulter got stuff. You remember him talking about
• 1:21:53
  that? He said.
• 1:21:54
  I heard him follow my. Wife home followed me home and,
• 1:21:57
  and, and by the way, there was a guy, there was a guy Amy brought
• 1:22:00
  to me to Huntsville I met. Well, he was APK.
• 1:22:04
  He's a psychokinesis guy and he trained.
• 1:22:07
  He spent time up at the Monroe Institute.
• 1:22:10
  Yes. Sir, he sure did.
• 1:22:12
  And he and he had skills and and I'm like, OK, well, she was the
• 1:22:17
  other she was she was with another couple of people that I
• 1:22:20
  won't mention the name because in her text she told me one of
• 1:22:24
  them was compromised by she was told that by someone, someone in
• 1:22:28
  the military she was working with.
• 1:22:30
  But the but the point is he had pictures that had video on his
• 1:22:33
  camera looking at a screen like you are screen and it was a UFO
• 1:22:38
  going over some trees. There was a door looked like,
• 1:22:40
  like a freaking this flying over and over.
• 1:22:43
  I said what is this? He said.
• 1:22:45
  He said this is phenomenal. I said where is this?
• 1:22:48
  He said this was from the camera of some of the video cameras at
• 1:22:52
  Skinwalker. Yeah.
• 1:22:54
  What do you where did you get these?
• 1:22:56
  He said. They paid me to come out and use
• 1:22:59
  my skills. This is when Bob owned it.
• 1:23:01
  Yeah, use my skills for a couple, three weeks to see what
• 1:23:06
  he could discern from this chaos.
• 1:23:08
  So now we're in a now we're in poltergeist world, OK.
• 1:23:12
  I'm trying to be with you. I'm saying we're, we're throwing
• 1:23:15
  all the everything at it. What?
• 1:23:17
  Could it be it doesn't make any sense?
• 1:23:19
  It doesn't make any sense because again, you're talking
• 1:23:21
  about sober minded people. You're talking about people.
• 1:23:24
  And I mean, you hear the guy, especially the gentleman that
• 1:23:26
  that that since bought it from Bigelow.
• 1:23:28
  That guy seems to be an extremely sober minded guy.
• 1:23:31
  Definitely. No, I mean, and and he's like,
• 1:23:34
  there are things that are going on that I just don't know.
• 1:23:37
  And like, and that is someone that I believe way more than
• 1:23:41
  someone that is definitively yes or no.
• 1:23:43
  Like I'll tell you what this is or I'll tell you that doesn't
• 1:23:45
  exist because you can't explain it.
• 1:23:47
  Like he's like, I don't know, it's freaking me out.
• 1:23:50
  We're trying to figure it out. We've devoted millions of
• 1:23:52
  dollars to figure it out and it just we, we can't, we have no
• 1:23:55
  idea exactly. So so I, you know, we're a
• 1:23:57
  poacher. We're a poacher guy.
• 1:23:59
  Poltergeist over here, right? I.
• 1:24:00
  Was big along thought that's his language not mine right.
• 1:24:03
  You know he said that now coming from him that's incredibly
• 1:24:07
  unusual because he's all about the science right.
• 1:24:10
  Yeah, he owned it before Brandon and he it is and he so and he
• 1:24:15
  said it really affected his wife.
• 1:24:17
  You remember he said that it the way it would interact with her.
• 1:24:20
  So it really did sound like the movie like a poltergeist still
• 1:24:23
  you know it's just so him there was the hitchhiker effect and
• 1:24:27
  now you're thinking what is that follows you home.
• 1:24:30
  Travis Taylor told me that a couple years ago at a conference
• 1:24:33
  he said if you're you know this stuff will go home with you and
• 1:24:36
  I said what are you talking about this phenomena.
• 1:24:38
  I said what? And I'm thinking you are three
• 1:24:41
  pH DS and we're talking about a phenomena that's going up with
• 1:24:44
  you and it's going to mess with you.
• 1:24:46
  It's cut his car off out there, brand new car when he was out
• 1:24:51
  there getting his mouth way out. That's what he told me and it
• 1:24:53
  cranked back up and it happened a couple times.
• 1:24:56
  And he said that's the kind of stuff that happens.
• 1:24:58
  He said it, we all have it happened.
• 1:25:00
  He said anyone who goes out there, these these these things
• 1:25:03
  affect you when you leave, he said.
• 1:25:06
  I want to ask. I've been I've been wanting to
• 1:25:08
  ask this for a while because it keeps on coming up.
• 1:25:11
  This phenomenon generally seem to happen around military bases
• 1:25:17
  or large experimental bases in general, right?
• 1:25:22
  Like you want to go to UFO you want.
• 1:25:23
  If anyone, if anyone wants to see a UFO really badly, they
• 1:25:26
  know where to go. You go to Nevada, you go to
• 1:25:29
  Huntsville, you go to you go to certain parts of Florida.
• 1:25:32
  There are parts in the country that people today that you can
• 1:25:35
  reliably go on a on a I'm sure a fairly regular basis and come
• 1:25:39
  across something that probably at this point is probably man
• 1:25:43
  made, right? I imagine.
• 1:25:45
  I think all of it, yeah. And so, so, So what do you think
• 1:25:49
  the story is? Do you think this is all
• 1:25:51
  weapons? Do you think there was
• 1:25:52
  inspiration for weapons? And we've been replicating it.
• 1:25:56
  That's why, like I had to do the base come because of the stuff
• 1:26:00
  that's there to begin with, or do the things visit the bases
• 1:26:04
  because it shows a spike of consciousness and intelligence
• 1:26:08
  and humanity that is just unprecedented.
• 1:26:11
  What what do you think is going on over there?
• 1:26:13
  Well, if you and I, you know, let's just say you and I are
• 1:26:17
  pure scientists and we're, we're down, we're down in the rabbit
• 1:26:20
  holes. By the way, we're not religious
• 1:26:22
  people. We're, we're like the facts.
• 1:26:24
  We don't want any, anything but science.
• 1:26:26
  We want something to be explained to us as science,
• 1:26:29
  period. And and and and and so we're
• 1:26:33
  open to anything to keep our country at the forefront.
• 1:26:38
  We're open to anything, any phenomena that looks wild and
• 1:26:42
  crazy, you know, or what are they?
• 1:26:44
  Are they man made? Are they coming from a lightning
• 1:26:46
  storm? How do they sustain themselves?
• 1:26:49
  How do they, you know, right now, if you said go in a lab and
• 1:26:53
  make me an orb and send it out front door, I don't think
• 1:26:56
  anybody could do it, by the way, that that we know of now.
• 1:27:00
  I'm saying we, we, we, I'm saying it's not something that
• 1:27:03
  hustle of people and all of them there.
• 1:27:05
  No, nobody's doing that at home. They can make little orbs set in
• 1:27:08
  a magnetic field, spin around and all that, but to have them
• 1:27:12
  go across the field and kind of keep themselves lit off and go
• 1:27:16
  through a wall. And you know, even Brian Benny,
• 1:27:18
  the pilot of spaceship one in one of our flights to Seattle,
• 1:27:22
  not Seattle. It was down to to S Nevada.
• 1:27:26
  He said he flew X fifteens man. This guy was on carrier landing
• 1:27:30
  guy. He's one of the pilots.
• 1:27:32
  He said he had an orb come through the cockpit, come in one
• 1:27:35
  side, out the other. Didn't seem to affect anything.
• 1:27:38
  But nobody's going to talk about it.
• 1:27:40
  You'd be grounded, you'd be grounded.
• 1:27:42
  You wouldn't be flying that machine if you're going to be
• 1:27:44
  psychologically evaluated. Everybody knew.
• 1:27:47
  It in in the cockpit. Through the cockpit, he said.
• 1:27:49
  Didn't like burning? Was it a physical?
• 1:27:51
  Was it a? Physical ball of light, he said.
• 1:27:55
  Little ball of light came through.
• 1:27:56
  OK, so we started talking about this before Ball of Light.
• 1:28:00
  It could be is is magnetic. Yeah, that's right.
• 1:28:04
  And it doesn't have to. A bottle of light doesn't have
• 1:28:06
  to be physical like mass. It doesn't.
• 1:28:09
  Well, it doesn't do something. It's, you know, as you know, not
• 1:28:13
  all plasma. You can, you've held your hand a
• 1:28:15
  little plasma ball at a store and it you know, you're not, you
• 1:28:18
  don't feel any heat from that. I mean, there are there are, you
• 1:28:22
  know, so I'm not saying it had tons of energy associated with
• 1:28:25
  it, like it's, you know, putting UV light and burning his face,
• 1:28:28
  but he said it didn't seem to affect anything.
• 1:28:31
  So I can't tell you how, what frequency or how much power
• 1:28:35
  there was, but he didn't he didn't see any damage caused by
• 1:28:38
  it. But he told me and Rutan that
• 1:28:40
  story. And you know, this is a guy that
• 1:28:42
  was going to be flying our spaceship, but he wouldn't be
• 1:28:44
  telling us stuff that would probably ground him with us.
• 1:28:47
  We in other words, if we thought he was crazy, we wouldn't have
• 1:28:50
  he wouldn't. In other words, he was, I think
• 1:28:52
  he was telling the truth. Right, meaning he'd have
• 1:28:54
  anything to gain from telling a team.
• 1:28:55
  No, no, it's really should not told us anything because you'd
• 1:28:59
  only been working for Burt for probably about a year and a half
• 1:29:01
  then. But what I'm getting at is I
• 1:29:05
  think, I think we, I think for a long time, I personally think
• 1:29:11
  that we've dabbled in a lot of stuff in order to try to
• 1:29:16
  understand it. And I believe we've had our look
• 1:29:19
  at what happened when, when the Russians during the Cold War,
• 1:29:23
  they had a remote viewing program.
• 1:29:25
  So all of a sudden America had one quietly had a remote viewing
• 1:29:29
  program. Tied in with the Church of
• 1:29:30
  Scientology. Even better.
• 1:29:32
  Well, and of course, well, that that's a good one.
• 1:29:35
  That's a good one because it's the, you know, it was the
• 1:29:38
  traditional churches that weren't fond of you doing these,
• 1:29:42
  these remote viewing psychic stuff in the name of any, for
• 1:29:46
  any reason. Why are we paying for that?
• 1:29:48
  So then it kind of went quiet and it became the Monroe
• 1:29:51
  institution. That's where Hal Puthoff spent
• 1:29:54
  some time, could be his time. And and now it's there was other
• 1:29:58
  great spoon benders and all sort of people.
• 1:30:01
  I knew a guy who went through that.
• 1:30:02
  His grandmother died. He's having dreams and he got
• 1:30:05
  tested and they went up there for two or three weeks.
• 1:30:09
  He was a massage therapist. He worked on me sometime, but he
• 1:30:12
  was telling me you work for Bigelow and then he start
• 1:30:15
  sharing his up at the Monroe Institute who he trained under.
• 1:30:20
  And he said, I said, why would you be up there?
• 1:30:22
  This guy called himself a Christian healer.
• 1:30:25
  And I said, OK, tell me about this.
• 1:30:27
  I'm on the table getting massage.
• 1:30:29
  He's good at deep tissue, hip, hip stuff, sciatica in
• 1:30:33
  particular. But I'll tell you what, I looked
• 1:30:35
  him up the other day. I'm not going to say his name,
• 1:30:37
  but he was working on me pre COVID or during COVID, probably
• 1:30:40
  a little bit. He looked him up in the paper
• 1:30:43
  and he was, he was, he got went to jail for crack and stuff.
• 1:30:47
  They look awful. Shit.
• 1:30:49
  Yeah. So he, you know, in order to, he
• 1:30:52
  was showing me a little skill he thought he had or something.
• 1:30:56
  And I'm like, OK, what I do with that they had to do with the
• 1:30:58
  necklace and spinning it one way or the other.
• 1:31:00
  And, you know, he was just thought he was, you know, people
• 1:31:03
  tell you stuff if they think you, if they know you work for
• 1:31:05
  Bob Bigelow and you're in advance propulsion or whatever,
• 1:31:09
  people just start sharing stuff with you.
• 1:31:11
  Yeah. Believe me, I bet.
• 1:31:13
  I bet. They think, you know, they think
• 1:31:15
  you're one of them. I'm one of them is sometime it's
• 1:31:19
  it's satanic people that they're all in.
• 1:31:22
  They've got garb in there and they thinking, oh, I'm at the
• 1:31:25
  right table. I mean, I have two of them tell
• 1:31:27
  me that this is going to be fun because they think, you know,
• 1:31:29
  I've got some great stories I'm going to tell.
• 1:31:31
  I've seen I've seen different sides of this man.
• 1:31:33
  And it's like, I personally believe in the name of national
• 1:31:37
  security and keeping us number one, I think we've explored
• 1:31:41
  things. We probably don't know what
• 1:31:43
  we're doing in many cases. That's like the consequential
• 1:31:47
  that we talked about earlier. That's right.
• 1:31:49
  If we don't do it, someone else will.
• 1:31:52
  That's like, yeah, that's like the AI, that's like the the
• 1:31:55
  CRISPR technology. If we don't, they're going to
• 1:31:59
  run around us. So consequently, we we got to
• 1:32:01
  get in the front of it. It's it's kind of.
• 1:32:03
  And it's, you know, crazy. I don't even know if that line
• 1:32:05
  of thinking is even necessarily is even necessarily true or
• 1:32:09
  rational. I think that we have our
• 1:32:14
  perception of reality and especially of other humans and
• 1:32:17
  other in other countries in general is so much of it is so
• 1:32:24
  manufactured and so much of it is so much of our perception.
• 1:32:29
  I I think is so 1 sided and so intentionally blind and not from
• 1:32:35
  the people that are seeing it, but the way that it's being
• 1:32:37
  taught and the way that our perceptions are forged and
• 1:32:40
  shaped. I think that I think that people
• 1:32:42
  do like if the, I think that there could be, I, I, I don't
• 1:32:46
  know how it would even happen, but because I think the people
• 1:32:49
  running the show aren't those type of people.
• 1:32:50
  But I think I, there could be a world without nuclear weapons,
• 1:32:53
  but using nuclear power. There could be a world in using
• 1:32:56
  science. Again, like you said earlier,
• 1:32:58
  science is a tool the same way amoral.
• 1:33:01
  There's no good or bad. It's, it's just a way that we
• 1:33:04
  choose to implement it or not. And we are at everyone's throat
• 1:33:09
  all the time. We're so tribal.
• 1:33:11
  And I think one of the big threats of space, one of the big
• 1:33:13
  threats of space travel, is that we ultimately begin to start
• 1:33:17
  looking at one another as one tribe instead of looking at the
• 1:33:21
  American tribe and the Russian tribe and the American tribe and
• 1:33:23
  the Chinese tribe and the planet Earth is a tribe.
• 1:33:26
  And that that would be catastrophic to the general
• 1:33:30
  order of the way that the world is running right now.
• 1:33:32
  But you know what? Since the beginning of time
• 1:33:35
  there, people can't seem to be content with being on this
• 1:33:40
  level. Somebody's got to be the the
• 1:33:42
  dog, the top dog always, and we can't.
• 1:33:45
  You don't trust people. And I mean, it's as old as time,
• 1:33:48
  man, I. Mean that's why we need
• 1:33:50
  religion. I but I personally believe that
• 1:33:52
  that's why we have religion in general.
• 1:33:54
  I think religion for for for humanity is an evolution of
• 1:33:57
  consciousness. Hey, who would have ever thought
• 1:34:00
  that man would be a monogamist? I mean, like look at look at, I
• 1:34:02
  mean think about how old how old we are and how old our species
• 1:34:05
  is. And for a guy to say, I'm going
• 1:34:07
  to put on a ring and then, you know, never touch another woman
• 1:34:10
  for 60 years, which goes against who knows how many primal or
• 1:34:14
  evolutionary instincts that that that guy might have.
• 1:34:17
  You know, I mean, we, we, we've, we, we or the fact that we have
• 1:34:21
  manners. I mean, like all this stuff is
• 1:34:24
  we, these are evolutions of consciousness that make us
• 1:34:27
  something different. And so that's just another step
• 1:34:30
  on the ladder that we got to get to.
• 1:34:32
  But I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's that far off.
• 1:34:35
  Well, I think it seems to be, you know, it's not a bad
• 1:34:39
  guideline for living. A lot of what we, you know, we
• 1:34:42
  learn in our various scriptures. And it's practically when you
• 1:34:46
  get old, you look back and say, you know, more power and more
• 1:34:50
  latitude and more freedom is not necessarily going to be a good
• 1:34:54
  thing for the kids in the structure of good enough as and
• 1:34:58
  finding that happy medium and balance in your life.
• 1:35:01
  All those things are, I mean, there's not too many good
• 1:35:04
  stories where people conquer everything and they're #1 and
• 1:35:08
  they get to stay there. It doesn't happen, you know.
• 1:35:11
  And then of course, they've tried them, you know, the, the
• 1:35:14
  United Nation thing. And then, but the problem is
• 1:35:17
  inevitably there's people, there's thinking there's too
• 1:35:20
  many of us and they're going to figure out if this out and that,
• 1:35:24
  you know, and everybody who makes money seems to be fine
• 1:35:27
  with using various whether it's through health, what we eat,
• 1:35:30
  what we do well, how we live, it's OK fetus crap.
• 1:35:34
  And there'll be a lot of people that can't, that don't have
• 1:35:37
  money, that will be happy to buy the crap and they'll die
• 1:35:41
  earlier. And I'm telling you, it's
• 1:35:43
  there's people that really do look at us as that we're not
• 1:35:47
  that important. There may be animals.
• 1:35:49
  Animals are more important or more intelligent because they're
• 1:35:52
  not doing as much destruction as us.
• 1:35:54
  So inevitably the problem with the nuclear weapons is, you
• 1:35:58
  know, yeah, you need a world police kinda.
• 1:36:01
  Because we really are to that tipping point, by the way, we
• 1:36:04
  are at the tipping point where everyone says, well, they only
• 1:36:08
  have 60% concentrated, you know, material to make bombs with.
• 1:36:15
  The thing is that people don't understand is it takes a long
• 1:36:17
  time to get to 50% with the process.
• 1:36:20
  But you can get a bomb in a matter of weeks with that
• 1:36:24
  percent and get it to where it needs to be.
• 1:36:26
  It's not, it's not linear. It takes a long time to get to
• 1:36:30
  that that that amount of purity, by the way.
• 1:36:34
  Then it's easy. It's very easy to get the rest
• 1:36:36
  of the way. And that's a problem.
• 1:36:39
  It wouldn't be a problem if you if you, if you didn't get
• 1:36:41
  rewarded so well if you blow some people up because the the
• 1:36:45
  program is, is, is if you're a male for some people, they, they
• 1:36:51
  get some pretty good hook up for, for doing bad things to
• 1:36:54
  other people. So I don't know the answer, but
• 1:36:57
  I'll tell you one thing. Without trust and verification
• 1:37:01
  methods, we're not we're in a pickle.
• 1:37:03
  And this goes back to what Wernher von Braun was talking
• 1:37:06
  about this moment in time where we're going to have to deal with
• 1:37:11
  the alien threat. And he says, but it's not going
• 1:37:13
  to be aliens. It's going to be the
• 1:37:15
  government's trying to get manage this big caught this big
• 1:37:20
  thing called Earth and the nuclear weapons here and there.
• 1:37:23
  And now they need a common we need a common belief system.
• 1:37:27
  I'm an enemy. We need to get rid of these
• 1:37:29
  weapons or throw them at the the aliens.
• 1:37:32
  But he said it's going to be us. It's a way they're going to try
• 1:37:35
  to manage the the acceleration of knowledge technology and they
• 1:37:40
  need a way to grab a hold of the whole planet.
• 1:37:44
  And I think Steven. Greer was saying that the other
• 1:37:46
  day, wasn't he? Did he hear?
• 1:37:47
  Did he? Do you see that, Steve?
• 1:37:48
  Was it Steve? Steven Greer?
• 1:37:49
  I don't know that. I heard him the other day saying
• 1:37:51
  I I know that. You said the other day.
• 1:37:54
  Ron Brown before in the this scenario.
• 1:37:57
  He mentioned that, he mentioned that there was supposed to be,
• 1:38:01
  there was 2 attempts for there's two different attempts for
• 1:38:04
  projects and for mass, I guess controller, you know, like a
• 1:38:10
  COVID type event, right? And that, that, that a faked
• 1:38:14
  alien invasion is being planned for 2028 or something like that,
• 1:38:18
  Which is why, which is why we're starting to head down this path
• 1:38:22
  now. But again, what, what, what
• 1:38:23
  makes this so frustrating is that like every good conspiracy
• 1:38:27
  theory and like every good government event and like every
• 1:38:29
  good issue that ever happened, there's always a little bit of
• 1:38:32
  truth probably laced into that. And so if we were to say that,
• 1:38:35
  you know, what the universe is proud is almost certainly
• 1:38:38
  teeming with life. I, I believe it.
• 1:38:40
  And the universe is so. And I don't know whether people
• 1:38:43
  have whether life has visited Earth.
• 1:38:45
  I'm inclined to say yes personally, but that's just
• 1:38:48
  because I want to, I think more than anything.
• 1:38:50
  But sure that so, so I'm sure that there's grains of truth
• 1:38:53
  too. If if there is a planned alien
• 1:38:56
  invasion, there have to be grains of truth within that that
• 1:38:58
  there that, you know, not going to whip this out of nowhere.
• 1:39:01
  And there has to be some kind of hard signs that you can point
• 1:39:04
  to. Listen, people did die of COVID.
• 1:39:06
  Like that wasn't a question. COVID was a tragedy for an
• 1:39:10
  enormous amount of people. There was no question that the
• 1:39:12
  question isn't treasured or not. The question is manufactured or
• 1:39:15
  not, with what intent, to what extent and and and so on.
• 1:39:18
  But and, and by the way, the answer could be whatever.
• 1:39:21
  And you know that I don't even care to get into that, but.
• 1:39:23
  I think it's all the above, right?
• 1:39:27
  A little bit of all. And so that I think that this is
• 1:39:29
  too, I think that this is what it's going to be too.
• 1:39:31
  And I've also heard that disclosure could be just a slow,
• 1:39:34
  a slow Rd. process, that it's not one bombshell, but it's a
• 1:39:38
  series of conversations that become normalized over time and
• 1:39:42
  movies in Hollywood that start to get endorsed by the public.
• 1:39:45
  And then all of a sudden Obama saying something and Trump
• 1:39:47
  saying something. And, and all of a sudden you
• 1:39:49
  have people on both sides of the aisle in the age of disclosure
• 1:39:52
  and this missing scientists. And then and then and now
• 1:39:54
  everyone's kind of ready there, there, everyone's already there
• 1:39:57
  without anyone having to come out and say anything.
• 1:39:58
  Yeah, we're getting warmed up for sure.
• 1:40:01
  You know, I count it listening to to Tim Burchett and listening
• 1:40:05
  to Luna and you know, and they're pretty, they're pretty
• 1:40:09
  junior to have this project that they have in their court to be
• 1:40:14
  to be chasing the the old school, the old guard.
• 1:40:18
  Do you agree? They're young.
• 1:40:20
  That means they could be pretty gullible about.
• 1:40:23
  Luna in particular I thought was was strange how how how involved
• 1:40:27
  she is. Like it's cool, but I I'm
• 1:40:29
  surprised. Yeah.
• 1:40:30
  So, you know, when they said today, I think I heard Tim Birch
• 1:40:33
  say today, he said, well, they said, do you really believe in
• 1:40:36
  aliens? And he said, he said, I believe
• 1:40:38
  there are, there is evil. And he said, you know what I'm
• 1:40:42
  deducing from this? I am thinking that there are
• 1:40:46
  people and forces in play where they're seeking knowledge for
• 1:40:51
  great technology and they're doing unconventional things.
• 1:40:55
  I think is 1. Of those guys too, by the way.
• 1:40:57
  OK. I think they're literally they
• 1:41:00
  want the they want the toys and they don't want to have to work
• 1:41:04
  as hard. So they are praying for
• 1:41:07
  knowledge from whatever's out there that will give them some
• 1:41:11
  feedback. And I don't think the what's out
• 1:41:14
  there, the details of that, the public is ready to hear that
• 1:41:17
  story. That's what I think.
• 1:41:18
  I think they have figured out how to communicate with whatever
• 1:41:21
  is out there talking. Yeah, I'm talking conscious.
• 1:41:25
  I'm talking that they they're getting it and they call it an
• 1:41:28
  ether, They're calling it quantum.
• 1:41:30
  We may be getting a message from across the universe.
• 1:41:33
  It could be instantaneous coupling and you know what I'm
• 1:41:37
  saying? It could be duality.
• 1:41:40
  And we just tuned into the right frequency.
• 1:41:43
  It takes people to do this, and I think that's the controversial
• 1:41:47
  part. The fact that we'd be paying
• 1:41:48
  anybody to be doing laying in a bed or in a chamber doing
• 1:41:54
  something we call collective conscious, seeking some way to
• 1:41:59
  have destructive outcomes with the toys that we might.
• 1:42:03
  The knowledge we gain, we use them to for maybe, maybe for.
• 1:42:08
  And let's face it, if it's if it's if it's free energy of some
• 1:42:11
  sort, I'll call it free over unity.
• 1:42:14
  That will definitely be squashed for a lot of reason.
• 1:42:17
  Energy. Yeah, because energy is is, is
• 1:42:22
  there so much invested in the way we currently run our whole
• 1:42:27
  system and who benefits? Absolutely.
• 1:42:30
  I don't see that we're going to get the hook up on anything.
• 1:42:33
  Another problem is when you have a really dense way to get a lot
• 1:42:37
  of energy, you have a dense way to build some awesome weapons,
• 1:42:41
  launch them and if you can pull it out of ether, you can do it
• 1:42:44
  from anywhere. So that's the problem.
• 1:42:46
  They all kind of, it's like I think Eric would argue too that
• 1:42:49
  they all could be the same coin that the nuclear peace and the
• 1:42:53
  energy that the energy, in other words, the making of energy.
• 1:42:56
  You remember he talked about the Bravo, the hydrogen bomb going
• 1:43:00
  off and he was they wouldn't be talking about the yield that
• 1:43:03
  came out of that far exceeded what they predicted.
• 1:43:06
  There was something happening with that bomb and they
• 1:43:09
  scientists looked at the date and think, holy cow, there's
• 1:43:13
  some other physics going on here pebbling with this bomb and
• 1:43:16
  giving us more yield than we ever predicted, he said.
• 1:43:20
  Right then they said let's, we're going to do a moratorium
• 1:43:23
  on doing hydrogen bombs and explosive nuclear weapons.
• 1:43:27
  And, and, and I think based on what I've read, they were able
• 1:43:31
  to scale down all experiments because if they, they're a lot
• 1:43:35
  easier to make than they were the fission.
• 1:43:38
  The fission took a lot of magic happening exactly the same time
• 1:43:43
  the, the, the, the hydrogen bombs.
• 1:43:45
  Apparently they're, they're, they're much easier to, to light
• 1:43:49
  off. So that's what I believe.
• 1:43:51
  We're doing stuff at small scale because we go unnoticed.
• 1:43:56
  We know with enough of the, the same material, the same physics,
• 1:44:00
  we can build a big one. And I think that's why we don't
• 1:44:02
  hear a lot of people popping off stuff that gives you seismic
• 1:44:06
  activity, you know, of nine on the Richter scale here and
• 1:44:10
  there. It's rare.
• 1:44:11
  I wanted to ask you, unless, and you mentioned this earlier, I
• 1:44:14
  don't know if you want to talk about it again or not, but a
• 1:44:17
  quick defense of the Amy Eskridge video that was going
• 1:44:20
  around because I think that I mean, I would personally like to
• 1:44:23
  give it a fair shot. It's up to you whether you want
• 1:44:25
  to elaborate on what I'm talking about.
• 1:44:28
  Well, you know. We can leave the guy's name out
• 1:44:30
  of it That, that, that, that, that that published if you want.
• 1:44:32
  But but just just been her defense.
• 1:44:34
  Because people I've seen already a couple of videos online and
• 1:44:37
  different podcasts and different, you know, X accounts
• 1:44:39
  and stuff that are basically really calling her a kook.
• 1:44:41
  And it's saying that, you know, she's probably brilliant, but
• 1:44:45
  who knows where her mental state was?
• 1:44:46
  Who know what her, who knows what her emotional state was?
• 1:44:48
  You know, we don't know with someone like that how.
• 1:44:51
  And as someone that knew her and her dad and his worked with her
• 1:44:54
  and advise her, I just wanted to get some of your two cents on
• 1:44:56
  that. Yeah, who do you think is more
• 1:44:58
  dangerous? A scientist who's used to
• 1:45:01
  keeping his head down and working and doing his job and
• 1:45:06
  following protocols and and respecting the community and the
• 1:45:09
  science. How do you think the daughter of
• 1:45:11
  a dad who does that, who's good at spilling the beans and
• 1:45:15
  telling, telling the story and I'm going to share it with the
• 1:45:17
  world. Who, which one of those two
• 1:45:19
  people do you think is really more dangerous selectively?
• 1:45:24
  There's a lot of danger there, but it's highly unusual to have
• 1:45:27
  that combo. OK, She's not, she wasn't
• 1:45:30
  stupid. She was, she was definitely a
• 1:45:33
  threat to some people, no doubt about that.
• 1:45:36
  Based on text I have and, and things that I know and they can
• 1:45:40
  remember a lot, lot of my interaction with hers in 1819
• 1:45:43
  and then later a little bit with her dad.
• 1:45:46
  But but you know, she passed away with 2022, right?
• 1:45:49
  I think it's 2220. Last time I saw was at the UAP
• 1:45:52
  conference in Huntsville. The first one they had her dad
• 1:45:55
  were there and how put off is a really the first one they had at
• 1:46:00
  Huntsville and that's where Alonzo I finally came out and
• 1:46:04
  came to Huntsville and he's you know, he's an Intel.
• 1:46:08
  You know, I'm connected with all these people on LinkedIn.
• 1:46:11
  Is it a lot of the people that do this stuff?
• 1:46:13
  They don't have LinkedIn profiles man they.
• 1:46:16
  I bet not. I wouldn't.
• 1:46:17
  I wouldn't. They don't need a job they don't
• 1:46:19
  need they're having fun and I could promise you they ain't
• 1:46:23
  going to talk about it. There's no good.
• 1:46:26
  So people that yap all the time, generally are, are are a lot of
• 1:46:30
  people quote, doing doing research and yapping about all
• 1:46:34
  the time. They're probably not that.
• 1:46:37
  They're just looking for hits and and and, you know,
• 1:46:40
  followers. And that's what I think.
• 1:46:42
  But Amy was different. She represented some incredible
• 1:46:46
  people, by the way, talented people that never talk.
• 1:46:50
  In fact, one of the scientists, I looked that guy up.
• 1:46:53
  I couldn't find nothing on this guy.
• 1:46:55
  He was a he was a new guy and he'd worked apparently.
• 1:47:00
  So this guy was was working with a neutron generator that he had
• 1:47:05
  developed to do science at the hospitals.
• 1:47:08
  OK, there's certain types of radiation patients get, they use
• 1:47:12
  radiation to kill cancers. But the half life of what's out
• 1:47:16
  there, they have to bring in. It could be a day, it's only
• 1:47:20
  going to last 24 hours. And then you got to fly more in.
• 1:47:23
  Have you ever heard of that? There's certain particles that
• 1:47:25
  they use. And he was able to create some
• 1:47:28
  of these with a emitter that he designed and had glass blower
• 1:47:32
  made and it was incredible. And he was pitching this as a
• 1:47:35
  product that he could sell even though you wouldn't normally get
• 1:47:39
  to offer his. When are you going to get to
• 1:47:41
  offer a commercial product? When you're all you ever done is
• 1:47:45
  design and wacky weapons, what is going to be your commercial
• 1:47:48
  product? So he's found a lane to get in,
• 1:47:50
  you know, and which is cool. I was totally blown away.
• 1:47:54
  I said who who made all that intricate glass?
• 1:47:58
  He said, well, the glass, best glass blowers in the country
• 1:48:01
  makes glass up near Chattanooga, you know, up that way.
• 1:48:04
  Yeah, Tennessee. But this guy was very soft
• 1:48:06
  spoken and it and I'm just blown away.
• 1:48:08
  This is over my head, man. I'm down in his lab and he was
• 1:48:12
  the real deal man. And that's the kind of people
• 1:48:15
  aiming at on different projects, she'd find funding so they could
• 1:48:19
  go build a commercial product. But the potential of those
• 1:48:23
  people is what's scary. It's not the commercial
• 1:48:25
  products, by the way. That particular product could
• 1:48:29
  scan the ground and look for certain munitions and it would
• 1:48:32
  kick off a certain emission. So he had a sensor that he had
• 1:48:37
  designed that could see things like explosives and stuff.
• 1:48:41
  So there were other uses to penetrate the ground and scan
• 1:48:45
  for IDs and all that kind of stuff, improvised munitions.
• 1:48:49
  So there was a lot of good that these people can do.
• 1:48:52
  But I'm telling you this is she was not full of it.
• 1:48:55
  Amy was the real deal. She was doing.
• 1:48:58
  She was in a job doing keeping, keeping real opportunity coming
• 1:49:03
  through the door and applying it and keeping her dad and others
• 1:49:07
  out of a lane. Maybe that would be get them in
• 1:49:09
  trouble. OK.
• 1:49:10
  Yeah, Yeah. Do you think that?
• 1:49:13
  And I personally, I believe the potential of these geniuses,
• 1:49:18
  some of them, that's the scary part.
• 1:49:20
  And there was nobody with a horn like Amy.
• 1:49:23
  And she was going to tell the world that we're working on this
• 1:49:27
  anti gravity now, by the way, anti gravity.
• 1:49:29
  Yeah, who doesn't want to fly to to the moon or whatever.
• 1:49:33
  But the point is a lot of these were real small experiments that
• 1:49:36
  were demonstrators. They weren't like they had a
• 1:49:38
  flying saucer in the backyard that I know of.
• 1:49:40
  But the one is the fundamentals. The fundamentals and the fact
• 1:49:45
  that she was going to spread all this to the world.
• 1:49:47
  That's the problem. Imagine that her working for the
• 1:49:52
  folks out at Los Alamos are down out there, They're 51 and she's
• 1:49:56
  out there at the library talking about the great work and she
• 1:50:00
  brings her father in and there's taking questions.
• 1:50:02
  And think about that for a minute.
• 1:50:04
  These guys that have always worked some spook stuff.
• 1:50:07
  There are some real classified stuff.
• 1:50:10
  Do you think how many people you think might want to do her harm?
• 1:50:15
  What if you're in those arenas and you've been doing the right
• 1:50:18
  thing and. You think private or public or
• 1:50:21
  both? No, I think I think retired
• 1:50:23
  people that have a lot of knowledge and a lot lots of
• 1:50:27
  loose like some of these people that are disappearing right and
• 1:50:31
  all the connections to JPL. And it makes me wonder if some
• 1:50:34
  of these people were also working some of these conscious
• 1:50:37
  angles by the way. And it all goes back to some of
• 1:50:41
  that Crowley, because you and. Consciousness are have been
• 1:50:44
  linked also right, especially because there's maybe some kind
• 1:50:48
  of speculation and I don't think that they could even really
• 1:50:52
  speculation anymore. I did a podcast I was making a
• 1:50:54
  short with a month ago with the woman I think I told you this on
• 1:50:58
  the phone the other day named Doctor Lisa Gable.
• 1:51:01
  But she's man a neurobiologist and she's working with a with
• 1:51:07
  the with the engineering professor to use to create like
• 1:51:11
  EEG hat to control and to use our neurons to control to
• 1:51:16
  control drones using EEG. And she's doing this since 2010.
• 1:51:20
  They're driving they're they're flying drones around the gym
• 1:51:23
  with their minds, with their brains.
• 1:51:25
  And I'm like, this is 2010 in Lafayette University that some
• 1:51:29
  you know, and and and she was wonderful, awesome guest.
• 1:51:33
  I never heard, you know, I never heard of anything like this.
• 1:51:35
  Before our folks probably been doing it for for another 10 or
• 1:51:39
  20 years. Yeah.
• 1:51:40
  So, so there's there's speculation, especially because
• 1:51:43
  the UFOs seem often too small to be manned really as far from our
• 1:51:47
  understanding and what we could guess, which is also by the way,
• 1:51:50
  completely preposterous because like the idea that like there's
• 1:51:53
  such thing as like a little intelligence, OK.
• 1:51:55
  I mean like, I don't suppose why not?
• 1:52:01
  Now keep in mind if you're Amy's dad, you know I have not talked
• 1:52:06
  to him about his death of Amy. That is just not a subject bring
• 1:52:10
  up. But I didn't know.
• 1:52:13
  She did have a lot of fibromyalgia stuff.
• 1:52:16
  She saw me one day when I met her with I had an ice pack in my
• 1:52:19
  back and I have a lot of sciatica.
• 1:52:22
  She says you suffer too. A lot of I said, yeah, I travel
• 1:52:25
  with these ice packs everywhere. It sucks.
• 1:52:27
  She goes well, that's the way it goes.
• 1:52:29
  You know, people that are really doing real stuff kind of make a
• 1:52:32
  difference. They seem to be plagued with
• 1:52:33
  something. And then I didn't subscribe to
• 1:52:36
  that necessarily, but she certainly thought it was a a
• 1:52:40
  burden for those who were making a difference.
• 1:52:43
  And I do think that there's a lot of stress and suffering.
• 1:52:46
  It goes with that with that journey she was on for sure.
• 1:52:49
  Sure. She's truly shaking it up man,
• 1:52:52
  Huntsville, AL man she's what do you so I personally believe that
• 1:52:57
  something what happened to her, especially with her on any
• 1:53:01
  medicine with a drink. I think they would they would be
• 1:53:05
  just the perfect storm for for people that that are made to
• 1:53:10
  kill themselves different ways and threaten their families,
• 1:53:13
  threaten their they just say, hey, you know, you're you're
• 1:53:16
  you're done anyways. You if you want to see your
• 1:53:19
  whatever live this is what's going to happen because we're
• 1:53:23
  done. You're done and this is the way
• 1:53:26
  to go down man. It looks like a suit side and it
• 1:53:28
  is for that. So I am skeptical.
• 1:53:31
  I don't believe that nobody loves their parents and the
• 1:53:34
  crazy about them would do that on the family farm.
• 1:53:37
  That's done that is nothing good.
• 1:53:39
  There's a lot of places you can go do that, but that wouldn't be
• 1:53:42
  my number one spot. That's just me and I've I've
• 1:53:45
  I've seen from my own family, but and it was just a big mess.
• 1:53:49
  But but but you know, that was a unfortunately it was a very
• 1:53:53
  unfortunate young, young kid, but in a girl girlfriend deal.
• 1:53:56
  The point is that he didn't do that at home either, you know.
• 1:53:59
  Yeah, it went to the cemetery. It's just that's this is all
• 1:54:03
  very darn horrible, horrible, horrible.
• 1:54:05
  Love that kid. I'm just saying, man, I just
• 1:54:10
  don't buy it for the very reason of the relationship, how proud
• 1:54:14
  she was of her dad. And you don't do that as a party
• 1:54:19
  thing for your dad or your mom. So they're very soft spoken
• 1:54:23
  people and they're they don't like trouble and and I think and
• 1:54:27
  in their minds it probably is. It could be that, but and it's a
• 1:54:31
  good it's an off ramp because they they've even said, well,
• 1:54:35
  unfortunately, scientists do die and suddenly kill themselves.
• 1:54:38
  That's sort of their standard. That's just what they said
• 1:54:41
  recently. I think Fox tried to get in
• 1:54:42
  touch with them and they said, you know, they told, they said
• 1:54:46
  people scientists died too, you know, so they don't need any
• 1:54:50
  trouble. Do you know, there was a lot of
• 1:54:52
  financially, it was tough to not have Amy out there keeping the
• 1:54:56
  business stuff going and then meeting milestones and doing the
• 1:55:00
  paperwork. It was a lot of lot of lot of
• 1:55:02
  terms when that happened beyond her being gone.
• 1:55:05
  It's just crazy. It's a lot more complicated than
• 1:55:08
  people understand. And it's, it's the kind of stuff
• 1:55:11
  that you know, can lead to bankruptcies and stuff that, you
• 1:55:14
  know, when you're, when you're in your retirement years, you
• 1:55:16
  just, you don't want to deal with all that.
• 1:55:18
  Yeah, especially when all you, especially when your research is
• 1:55:21
  what keeps you going. I mean, that's it.
• 1:55:23
  Retire, Retirement to death sentence as far as far as
• 1:55:26
  anyone's concerned, you know. Yeah, but I I've never in
• 1:55:30
  anything, even some of her texts to me and there's a bunch she
• 1:55:34
  was she she said I am will never.
• 1:55:36
  That's not I'm I'm not suicide. She said that too.
• 1:55:39
  If it's true, this Reddick stuff that came out from Sam Reed, I
• 1:55:44
  think it was that it was just a couple days ago.
• 1:55:47
  I said those were texts that were it went on Reddit.
• 1:55:50
  I screenshot them all. I.
• 1:55:52
  Just. Disappears, but it's supposed to
• 1:55:54
  be text from Sam now. I met Sam as one of her Canadian
• 1:55:59
  friends. So I have asked him.
• 1:56:02
  I sent him a note. I said, is there, is this real?
• 1:56:06
  I don't think I've heard back, but that was earlier today.
• 1:56:09
  I really, if it is, I mean, if he's sharing that, it's really
• 1:56:14
  interesting. You'd have to read it.
• 1:56:15
  And I don't want to. And I for the, I don't want to,
• 1:56:18
  I don't want any trouble with Amy's, you know, I don't want to
• 1:56:21
  create problems for them. But I will tell you this, you
• 1:56:25
  just stitch it together. How many people get to go out?
• 1:56:28
  When people are retired who done some really crazy stuff and have
• 1:56:32
  talent, you're trying to commercialize them.
• 1:56:35
  At the same time you're telling people we're going to do some
• 1:56:38
  gravity energy stuff. And then it's like those people
• 1:56:42
  are like, holy crap, I don't want you talking about that
• 1:56:45
  because that's going to get me. Somebody's going to come visit
• 1:56:48
  us. Are you with me?
• 1:56:50
  Somebody in the in the, in the government?
• 1:56:52
  Because that's not what you do when you retire working
• 1:56:55
  programs. That's right.
• 1:56:56
  I mean, if you were, if you were running your mouth on base and
• 1:57:00
  they'd probably take care of you if they had to, they they have
• 1:57:03
  the right to protect the interests of national security.
• 1:57:07
  And that's the way it is. That's what we.
• 1:57:09
  Had there was a statue, I forgot what it was from the 1950s.
• 1:57:12
  I think that the government basically said they could just
• 1:57:15
  classify anything in the name of national secure.
• 1:57:17
  They can privatize and classify anything in the name of national
• 1:57:20
  security. So you're working on something
• 1:57:22
  fun. Very cool, very nice.
• 1:57:24
  Get a visit next door. Knock, knock.
• 1:57:26
  Who is it? Everything you've been working
• 1:57:28
  on, it's classified. You can never talk about it
• 1:57:30
  again. Have a nice life.
• 1:57:31
  If you really want to work in this area, we'll find you some
• 1:57:34
  work to do, but you need to sign something because you're getting
• 1:57:38
  too close to some things we're working on.
• 1:57:40
  Yeah, and it's. Like, I mean, what else you
• 1:57:43
  going to do, man? You're either top dog with the
• 1:57:45
  good toys to protect our interests and I think there's a
• 1:57:49
  lot of cool toys that we can only imagine.
• 1:57:52
  I know and you know what that's and that's so your side and go
• 1:57:55
  looping back full circle before we call it a night.
• 1:57:57
  You know is when this goes into your sci-fi and your reality is
• 1:58:02
  already so crazy and you know, who knows what the heck is going
• 1:58:07
  on out there for real? Well, but I'm I, I.
• 1:58:12
  You know, you know there's you. Maintain hope.
• 1:58:14
  Are you hopeful? Well, I am, I mean, think, I
• 1:58:18
  think we're probably in the, the right country to be the last to
• 1:58:24
  fall. I'm hopeful that I'm hopeful
• 1:58:26
  that we, we, we need our need our advanced propulsion so we
• 1:58:29
  can go to our own planet and do our own thing.
• 1:58:32
  I think that would be really good.
• 1:58:34
  I think people would be still collaborating and trying to take
• 1:58:38
  resources from this planet because it's so good.
• 1:58:42
  Yeah. So I think we'd be dealing with
• 1:58:45
  with crazies even that just come in or steal our water and to to
• 1:58:49
  take whatever. Do you agree with that?
• 1:58:51
  I'm saying if if you can get off this planet and have some pretty
• 1:58:55
  cool tech to do that, you've probably got, we've got a now.
• 1:58:59
  It wouldn't be 5 minutes before we annexed other planets.
• 1:59:02
  It would take us. It would take us.
• 1:59:05
  It would take us through the time that you could sign your
• 1:59:07
  corporate. You know that that that deal
• 1:59:11
  that guarantees your short shareholders X amount of returns
• 1:59:14
  from owning planet XYZ, You know?
• 1:59:17
  Yeah, and that's. How long you take?
• 1:59:19
  You know, when you get Hoover on your show, you need to ask him
• 1:59:22
  about the nature of water and life.
• 1:59:25
  And he's founded everywhere. Everywhere.
• 1:59:27
  He studied the moon rocks and and some Mars.
• 1:59:30
  A lot of Mars pictures haven't been any real good samples have
• 1:59:35
  come back. But the point is he'll tell you
• 1:59:38
  a lot about how life could sustain millions of years under
• 1:59:41
  the water that never freezes the deep water and why they're the
• 1:59:46
  physics of that is such could be something that it's crazy worms
• 1:59:51
  that come alive from sunshine and they they start, they start
• 1:59:56
  basically sweating like thycol on the glycol and it melts ice
• 2:00:00
  local and then that frees up adjacent microbes and stuff for
• 2:00:04
  it to eat. So these these worms are like a
• 2:00:07
  piece of tubing and he was showing these.
• 2:00:10
  Absolutely. Ice worms found deep in the
• 2:00:13
  Arctic way under the ground. They pull cores crazy.
• 2:00:16
  They come up and it's pretty cool, man.
• 2:00:19
  But he's got all these. He's got some great
• 2:00:22
  presentations he's done on so far as life goes.
• 2:00:26
  Yeah, You know, I am I think I think the dam is about to break
• 2:00:31
  in a lot of areas and we are at a critical mass for technology
• 2:00:36
  where it's going to be too easy for people to easily do
• 2:00:40
  destructive things. And I think something's got
• 2:00:43
  somebody's going to hit the brakes and, you know, shy of
• 2:00:45
  destroying, you know, regions completely, we've got to have
• 2:00:50
  some policies and some I mean, I'm not saying, you know, that
• 2:00:53
  the the United Nations kind of got out of hand.
• 2:00:56
  And you can you can see now that the agenda agendas were not the
• 2:01:00
  people's agendas. They were some utopian for a
• 2:01:04
  small group of people that what they thought who the ones that
• 2:01:08
  are going to be here for the long term here who are the
• 2:01:10
  takers? So you know that I mean it was
• 2:01:13
  going that way. So there needs to be it seems
• 2:01:15
  like a United Nations to control weapons and all that, but they
• 2:01:19
  need to be a very open Komona existence transparency.
• 2:01:25
  I'm going to leave it at that on that.
• 2:01:26
  But, but man, I am, I think we're, I really believe that.
• 2:01:33
  I believe that This is why they use the term demonic sometime.
• 2:01:37
  I think the dark forces of where information is coming from, the
• 2:01:41
  taxpayers are not going to be happy with the answer Y'all.
• 2:01:44
  I don't like what they're doing. They're not going to they're not
• 2:01:47
  going to be happy with with with these methods to go and get
• 2:01:52
  information and be in these dark places and and and summon things
• 2:01:57
  that we don't really understand the the physics.
• 2:01:59
  We use the word quantum and interconnected and it's all but
• 2:02:03
  the fact is there's not a a filed system just setting out in
• 2:02:07
  space saying, well, if you go to this vector, you'll get Tim
• 2:02:10
  Pickens and spaces for the last 100 years.
• 2:02:13
  I mean, are you wouldn't that's why people say it's a big
• 2:02:16
  holograph. It's a hologram.
• 2:02:18
  You know, think about holograms are if you see a picture, you
• 2:02:22
  can cut out a little quarter by quarter inch of that picture and
• 2:02:25
  it got it has all the details of the whole picture.
• 2:02:28
  Every, no matter how small, you make that.
• 2:02:30
  You know that, right? You cut it.
• 2:02:32
  You have all the details of the whole hologram.
• 2:02:34
  Yeah, I didn't know that. Yes.
• 2:02:36
  Pretty much to a degree down to the point where you have the
• 2:02:39
  pixels stop making the image because it is photographic, some
• 2:02:44
  of it's old photographic film. But the point is, is people see
• 2:02:47
  the the universe is this 3 dimensional hologram and it's
• 2:02:51
  there's repetition of Everything Everywhere, sort of.
• 2:02:55
  Yeah, that's it's not the looping universe.
• 2:02:59
  I forgot what it's called. I forgot what it's called, Yeah.
• 2:03:02
  But I, I do believe that, you know, we could have a long talk
• 2:03:06
  about the, the origins of, of some of the history of, of, of
• 2:03:10
  the, of the gods and the biblical writings before people
• 2:03:15
  existed. There seemed to be this evil in
• 2:03:17
  the world, in some cases made by creator who was omnipotent, knew
• 2:03:22
  everything. But yet these, these, these,
• 2:03:25
  these creatures that wanted free will or he wanted them that free
• 2:03:28
  will. There was quite an experiment
• 2:03:30
  that didn't work out, but it's even mentioned in in our Old
• 2:03:33
  Testament and in some of the writings and other religions.
• 2:03:38
  So question is where the battles of the of the planets?
• 2:03:43
  Was there some reality to that when they were thrown out of
• 2:03:46
  paradise? But if you're going to write a
• 2:03:48
  book to the people of planet Earth, why can we relate to
• 2:03:52
  creatures that darn even beings they're, they're spiritual are
• 2:03:56
  they are conscious and they're not by people like us.
• 2:04:01
  So the point is, why would you share that story with us?
• 2:04:04
  It's not as relevant as the people story, let's say of the
• 2:04:07
  New Testament or others. All I'm saying is there's a lot
• 2:04:11
  of weird stuff that that you could get into here.
• 2:04:14
  But I do believe our politicians are worried to death that this
• 2:04:19
  discussion about where some of this tech come from, they really
• 2:04:22
  can't explain it. Yeah, that's the topic.
• 2:04:26
  Do you? I do agree with that.
• 2:04:27
  It's all seems to be aligning and they're like.
• 2:04:30
  There's not a good answer, but you're not going to like it.
• 2:04:35
  Yeah, we have to see what I to see what I believe that comes
• 2:04:39
  out of any politicians mouth these days.
• 2:04:40
  But you know, because even if they come out and show me, you
• 2:04:43
  know what, I don't believe crap anymore.
• 2:04:46
  And and you know what? They they they the blatant the
• 2:04:49
  the degree of blatant lying is so to such an extent that it
• 2:04:54
  almost would require the most overwhelming evidence that like
• 2:04:58
  it would need like like doing it having a formal handshake and a
• 2:05:03
  photo op with a with a the interdimensional being for for
• 2:05:07
  me to buy Tim Bertrand or. Well, yeah, you're right, You're
• 2:05:13
  right. I agree with you.
• 2:05:14
  And by the way, I think we're going to see some pictures and
• 2:05:17
  videos and I think people are going to be able to explain them
• 2:05:21
  in different ways. Yeah, I know.
• 2:05:23
  And you're not going to see, you're not going to see a living
• 2:05:25
  it's going to. Be amazing and something's going
• 2:05:27
  to be incredible. I think it's going to be mind
• 2:05:30
  boggling, but it's not going to be any anything you can get your
• 2:05:33
  hands on. And I think the grudges, you
• 2:05:37
  know, that the people that think about it, the
• 2:05:39
  counterintelligence people that have come out as whistleblowers.
• 2:05:42
  Are any of those people in jail, by the way?
• 2:05:45
  Not to my knowledge. And all wiki blowers go to jail,
• 2:05:48
  right? Yeah, so they're out run their
• 2:05:50
  mouth. And if they're really a threat,
• 2:05:53
  do you really believe they would be allowed to do that?
• 2:05:56
  Yeah. The point is they're out there
• 2:05:58
  counterintelligence and they're out being fed some stuff and
• 2:06:02
  they think they've got a platform in there.
• 2:06:04
  It's clear with, with with with the one guy, Alonzo, it's clear
• 2:06:08
  that as long as he talks about aliens off the planet, he's in
• 2:06:11
  good shape. In other words, it's out there.
• 2:06:14
  It's not us. Yeah, that's that's his spice.
• 2:06:17
  Have you noticed? Yeah, I have.
• 2:06:19
  I've, I don't, I don't buy anything he says either.
• 2:06:22
  Of course, I mean, again, grain of salt because I'm sure there's
• 2:06:25
  kernels of truth, but I don't buy a lot of what he says.
• 2:06:28
  I agree with you. Tim, I'm sorry I have to cut
• 2:06:31
  this, but I, I like computers on 2%.
• 2:06:33
  So I, I really appreciate your time.
• 2:06:36
  I love your idea about doing live Q&A podcast another time.
• 2:06:40
  I think that would be a ton of fun.
• 2:06:42
  We'll gather up a bunch of questions and you know, let's
• 2:06:45
  see what we could do with this. But I think that we could we
• 2:06:47
  could make something great. And I would love to have another
• 2:06:49
  conversation with you because this is our second or third
• 2:06:53
  multi hour conversation and I'm really enjoying all of this.
• 2:06:55
  Well, I'm sorry I'm so long winded.
• 2:06:58
  No, this is great. I love this.
• 2:07:00
  This is the point of the podcast and it's really been a ton of
• 2:07:03
  fun. So I thank you so much for your
• 2:07:04
  time and thank you for all this. Awesome.
• 2:07:07
  Some information and it's so much fun.
• 2:07:09
  We covered so much ground, so yeah.
• 2:07:10
  And by. The way when you come back, I'll
• 2:07:13
  give you a tour of the labs and all of my crazy stuff.
• 2:07:17
  Jet packs, rocket bikes, it's all here man.
• 2:07:21
  I'm going to come, I'm going to. I'll make a trip, I'll make a
• 2:07:23
  trip. My wife and I are looking for a
• 2:07:25
  place to go. OK, Tim, thank you so much to be
• 2:07:28
  on your show and thank you again.
• 2:07:30
  Of course, have a great night. All the best.
• 2:07:31
  Take care man, Take care. Man, we'll see you.