Latest / Chip Ingram Sermon Podcast / Understanding the Global Youth Culture and Equipping the Church to Reach the Next Gen

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Understanding the Global Youth Culture and Equipping the Church to Reach the Next Gen · Chip Ingram Sermon Podcast

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Today on Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram.
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As you listen today, if there is someone in your
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life that's drifted away from the Lord, in fact,
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maybe they're actually hostile. Maybe they're
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your son or one of your grandchildren. If that's
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you, there's hope. Today, we're going to talk
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about not just the next generation, but the people
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that you love. Stay with me. I'm Dave Drury,
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and this is Living on the Edge. In our series,
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Caring Enough to Connect, building bridges to
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those we love, we've been learning what it takes
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to build real relationships in a broken world.
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Today, Chip Ingram sits down for a special conversation
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with his good friend Aaron Pierce, who leads
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a global ministry called Steiger International,
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spending decades reaching secular, non -religious
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young people all over the world with the gospel.
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Together, they'll help us understand how this
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generation really thinks and why the people you
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love are never beyond God's reach. Such an important
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message. Let's get started now. Here's Chip Ingram.
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Well, thanks so much, Dave. We do have a really
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special guest and a very close friend. And Aaron,
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tell us a little bit about your journey just
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for those that may not be familiar with you or
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our relationship. Chip, it's just an honor to
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be on this call with you and to talk with you
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and just to serve with you. And I've always been
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so grateful for you and the influence you've
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had in my life. You know, like I always considered
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you a mentor even before I knew you. And so you've
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had a big influence on my life. And yeah, so
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I grew up as a missionary kid in Amsterdam. And
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you've met my parents and they were missionaries
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in Amsterdam. They had a heart to reach young
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people that wouldn't walk into a church. which
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if you consider a city like Amsterdam, that's
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pretty much all young people. And they see these
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big, beautiful cathedrals that are often closed
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on Sunday and they're museums. And so many people,
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they just view the church as a tradition of the
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past, not relevant to my life. And you find that
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a lot of people living in this secular culture,
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for some of them, religious ideas, it's just
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kind of they're apathetic to it. It doesn't really...
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They don't think about it all that much. Some
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are even cynical or hostile. And yet many are
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very open to spirituality of various kinds. And
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there's all kinds of spiritual expressions that
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people draw to. And so in that environment, I
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just saw a secular culture where people who might
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not walk into a church on a Sunday, and yet we're
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still hungry for the very things that Jesus brings.
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And so that idea of how do we bring the gospel,
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which is as relevant today, to a culture that
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often thinks it's not. And that was the environment
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I grew up in as a kid and got to see God move
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and change lives. And it kind of ruined me in
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a really good way because I saw, you know, that
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Jesus is real and he changes lives. And so, yeah,
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that was the context that then led me to lead
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this mission called Steiger that's mobilizing
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followers of Jesus to reach young people who
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would not walk into a church. So now you have
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teams that are reaching young people and How
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many cities around the world now? It's over 275
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cities, which is wild. Because when you were
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with us a few years ago, it was about 90. And
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so we've just seen tremendous growth over the
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last few years. An explosion of the move of God
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reaching young people around the world. Well,
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as we now say that and say, wow, there's spiritual
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hunger and God's really, really working. I'm
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going to talk to parents and grandparents who
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are sitting in a little bit different situation.
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Their kids went to a Christian school. They went
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to youth group. They sat around the table. Some
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of them did little family devotions. They either
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went away to college or there was a gradual drift.
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They're late teenagers. They're middle 20s. They're
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some in early 30s now. They want nothing to do
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with God, often nothing to do with their parents.
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Some have not only drifted from the faith. Some
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have rejected. Some have deconstructed. At what
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point? You know, we've heard the stats for quite
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a while. What point from your perspective, because
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you've come up through it all, more than a cultural
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trend, you saw this as a genuine crisis? Yeah.
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Well, you know, like you, Chip, I get the opportunity
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to preach at churches and conference and events
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all over the world, including here in the U .S.
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And after I preach, I would have a line of parents
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and grandparents coming to talk to me. tears
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in their eyes talking about their young adult
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child. And honestly, the volume and consistency
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of their story, most now seeming to be involved
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in LGBTQ as well. And just all of that, there
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was just so much pain and so much heartache and
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also a sense of not knowing what to do that God
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began to break my heart. For these parents and
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grandparents and just saying, God, we got to
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serve them. We got to equip them. And so this
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went from statistics and trends to something
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deeply personal for me because of the stories
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that I was hearing from these parents and grandparents.
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Well, let me pause for a moment here and I want
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you to. invite a parent or grandparent who feels
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like, you know, I don't think there's any hope.
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They won't talk to me or, you know, I don't bring
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up religion anymore at all. I can't even talk
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about Jesus and I don't get it. I don't understand.
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Not saying that their sons and daughters who've
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drifted or are deconstructing are right. But
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could you, like, invite them to sit down at a
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table just with you and me, maybe picture a cup
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of coffee, and would you help them understand?
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how their kids and grandkids are thinking, how
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they view the world that is so different than
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their parents, so different than their grandparents,
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and so different from the, you know, go to church,
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be a good person, don't get anybody pregnant,
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don't get pregnant, don't get on drugs, don't
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drink alcohol, and be a good, nice person that
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somehow with the algorithms and all the things
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that have happened in social media and the culture,
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caused this break between their view of Jesus,
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Christianity, and their parents. Help that parent
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or grandparent understand. And by the way, if
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you're a parent, a grandparent, and you're thinking,
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oh, please speak, could I ask you to lean back
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right now? Some of this feels very painful. Some
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of you have dealt with a lot of anger, others
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with a lot of guilt. Our goal here is we've got
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to build some bridges. And to do that, we need
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to step back a little bit and discover what they're
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feeling, how they're thinking. Not saying it's
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always right or true by any means. But if you
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don't understand, that prayer that I pray often
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by St. Francis, where he says, Lord, grant that
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I may seek to understand more than to be understood.
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Seek that I may love more than to be loved. That
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idea of empathy. Help us. What do you hear from
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these kids? I mean, you meet them on the street.
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You've met them at LGBT rallies. You've met them
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in places that most Christians never go. And
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you hear their stories. Help that parent or grandparent.
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You nailed it, which is I think so often in this
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context, we're looking to tell people the answer
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rather than first to understand. And I actually
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think in order to really communicate Jesus effectively,
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we need to know. what they're thinking what's
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influencing them and so we live in a culture
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in this generation that is quite distinct from
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a few generations ago and in the voices and influences
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that's shaping how they see the world essentially
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the the main uh like you know second corinthians
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4 4 says the god of this age has blinded the
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minds of unbelievers the god of this age is is
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what i would describe as secular humanism And
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it's this idea that God has been replaced. And
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I am at the center. I'm God. And there's no outside
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authority that can tell me how to live my life.
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It's the era of my truth and all identity. purpose
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and morality is self -constructed. You know,
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in the Christian worldview, we discover those
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things because God designed those things. In
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the secular world, I design it. I develop it.
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I decide who I am. I decide what's right and
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wrong. I decide the purpose for my life. And
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it sounds liberating. It sounds like freedom,
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but the truth is this worldview is actually quite
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destructive. It's like poison wrapped in bubble
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gum. It looks all sweet and shiny on the outside,
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but it's actually destroying people. It's like
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it says in Proverbs 16, 25, there's a way that
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seems right to a man, but its end is the way
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to death. And so what we have is this culture
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that's telling people it's all about you. There
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are no rules. The rules are fake. Just do what
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you want. Do what makes you feel good. And so
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what we have instead of freedom, we're finding
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bondage. We have a culture that is confused,
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that's sexually broken, lonely, anxious, depressed.
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This is the felt need of our culture. And what's
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interesting is secular culture does not deny
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those things. They just don't have a good answer
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to them. So this is all that's going on. And
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there's so much confusion. Like take the topic
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of love. You know, we all, of course, we have
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this innate desire for love and intimacy. It's
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how God wired us. But our culture is incredibly
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confused about love because on one hand, you
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have hookup culture where, you know, sex is basically
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just a physical act for pleasure. And apart from
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consent, there's no moral guidance. And so just
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do what makes you happy. You got that on one
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side. And then on the other side, in the same
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breath, we're looking for the one. that will
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complete us, that will satisfy all our needs
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and desires, that person that will fill the emptiness.
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And so you got these two extremes that people
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believe about love. No wonder we're confused.
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No wonder we're broken. And so I think. the response
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to all of this shouldn't be, what's wrong with
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you? How dumb could you be? But rather it should
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be like Jesus, which is to have compassion on
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those that are confused, which is really what
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I would say, that's the state of our culture
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is we're confused. And so this is the air that
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people are breathing today. And then you add
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to that a general skepticism towards authority
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and towards like religious institutions. And
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so even though Jesus has the answers to what
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they are looking for, they're not looking to
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the church. Like, think about it. Jesus brings
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truth to the confused. He brings healing to the
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sexually broken. He brings the ultimate relationship
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with the creator restored and with the church.
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And he brings peace that transcends understanding.
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We have the answers to the cry of this generation,
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but they're not looking to the church. So part
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of it is just recognizing the cultural moment
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that we're in. And how do we now communicate
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Jesus in that context? And that's what I want
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to talk about, because I think when I was with
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your team. And as we built time together, one
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of the reasons that we partnered together to
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develop the book, Not Beyond Reach, is what I
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saw was, maybe this is part of my giftedness,
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is I saw that you all literally had a very clear
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process that you walked people through, that
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you were so close to it, you almost didn't see
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it. I mean, but it was so clear. And I thought,
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oh, my. First of all, they go where lost people
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go. Second, they don't judge them. They ask questions
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and they listen. Third, you all would have spiritual
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conversations that everyone has. Loneliness and
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what's life all about and what's your purpose
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with no judgment and often with a bottle of water
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or a meal. And then you would have Bible studies
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for non -Christians. You could ask anything,
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no pushing. And yet what you did is you built
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safety and then you asked them questions that.
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Honestly, in their confusion, they couldn't really
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answer, but they felt loved and it was safe.
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And they were now open to do something they hadn't
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done before. Instead of packaging Jesus with
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religion or this is what my parents believe or
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this is connected to some political figure or
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some building, all of a sudden you are introducing
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them to the Jesus of the New Testament in a very
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safe way. But you built a lot of bridges. And
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then you had that gospel conversation. You let
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them understand that the root issue is sin. sin
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for all of us, that there is a Savior, there
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is hope. And so, you know, that book was to codify
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that. And by the way, it's had huge impact. Let
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me say this. Mary's 22 years old. She doesn't
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talk to her parents anymore. She's in a alternative
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lifestyle. She does, you know, just mild, smokes
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some weed, has her own life, is pretty disengaged
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from her parents. And her parents feel like,
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I just can't get through to Mary. Or you can
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make it George who's 24. You're sitting down
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with them and you've met them at a coffee shop.
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They have some alternative sort of symbols around
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that let you know this is my new identity. Would
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you help a parent? listen to you sit down, and
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could you just have a conversation with that
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person? Maybe you notice, I often do this one,
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you notice a tattoo that you know has some symbolism,
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and I will often say something, wow, that's an
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interesting tattoo. Tell me a little bit about
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that, which is a completely different approach
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than why they got that stuff, you know. So help
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that parent understand what you actually say.
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Because I want to talk about a resource that
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we have for them, but I think they need to hear,
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okay, it's confusing. The world's messed up,
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but they're living in pain. How do you go about
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connecting with this person that would model
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for them how they could go about doing it? Yeah.
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Well, I think the complexity here is distinct
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when it comes to parents and grandparents, because
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the dynamic can get a little more emotional.
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It can get a little more, there's more going
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on. And so one of the things I would say is there
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is this tendency to want to rush in with the
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answers and here, look at this article or, you
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know, the Bible says this and kind of come in
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hot with your answers. And I think obviously
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the truth is truth and people need to hear. the
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truth. But I think when it comes to kids, parents
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and grandparents interacting with their kids,
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often I think that the key is that you need to
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be a relationally present in their life. What
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the enemy wants to do is to divide and to disconnect
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and isolate. And I think what you need to do
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is first and foremost, show them with your actions
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that even if you don't agree with their lifestyle,
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even if you don't agree with their choices, you
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love them. And nothing is going to change that.
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And you will pursue them and meet them on their
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turf. And part of what you're doing is you're
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challenging some lies that they believe, that
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they're going to be rejected, that you don't
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love them, or your love is conditional. And part
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of that is you're softening the ground for work
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that the Lord can do. And I think, you know,
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I really, I've been meditating on this idea of
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the aroma of Christ. And this idea that when
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the Holy Spirit is inside of us, the fruit of
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the Spirit really draws people. And I think God
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can do work in people's hearts even before we
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communicate the words. And while I'm a big believer
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in preaching the words, often with parents and
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grandparents, the first thing is we need to make
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sure we're solidifying the relational bonds.
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Because I think that's one of the ways that the
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enemy sets us apart, disconnects us. So that
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would be my first point. is like, we need to
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recognize that what they believe is not simply
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a matter of logic and persuasion. There is a
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spiritual reality going on. I already quoted,
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you know, second Corinthians four, four, the
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God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers.
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So what we're dealing with is spiritual blindness
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and all my apologetic arguments and all my persuasion
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is not enough if they are spiritually blind.
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And that is why prayer is not just this nice.
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activity that we do or a warm up to the real
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work, prayer is essential. So I would say start
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with engaging, building the relational bond and
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praying in a new way. And praying in a way, gather
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your friends, maybe it's time for fasting and
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prayer. And because God's got to do something
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supernaturally for my words to matter at all.
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And so I would start with those two places and
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then pray also that God would bring about circumstances
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and people around them that could reintroduce
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them to Jesus. Because I would suggest that in
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most cases, the parents or the grandparents are
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not going to be the one that God uses to bring
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Jesus back to them. And so it's kind of this
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surrender there. Well, I saw the process when
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I was doing some training in Germany, but I never
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will forget. And our new president, he's not
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new anymore. He's been with us three years. Mike
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and I were there together. And you broke up into
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groups into regions, different regions of the
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world. And you said, we're going to pray now.
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And, you know, I thought, yeah, okay. So, you
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know, we knelt down and got in circles and we
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started to pray. Well, you know, I was used to
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how other Christians pray, you know, Lord, you
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know, help us, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know,
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I mean, we're 45 minutes into it. We're an hour
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into it. And I'm listening to young people plead
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with God, intercede, fasting, crying out. There
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was a level of passion. passion and intensity
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because they had been there. They had been lost.
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They had been blind. And I want to say something
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as a pastor and as a parent, as a grandparent.
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This is going to be hard for some of you to hear.
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Some of the issue is not with your kids. Some
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of the issue is with you. You need to ask yourself,
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are you living an authentic life? Is church something
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you just go to? Are you in God's Word? Are you
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passionate? Do you want your life to work out?
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Are you a consumer? Or are you the kind of Christian
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that really reveals Christ? And I don't mean
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this as some big... you know, guilt trip. I'm
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just saying you can't change other people, but
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you can look into your own heart, your own life
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and say, God, start with me. Take away the pain,
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the hurt, the calluses, the rejection, the part
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that where you want to pay them back, all those.
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All those tapes about, you know, they're so ungrateful.
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They don't remember all the things I did for
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them. You know, I paid for the college. I did
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this. I made these sacrifices. All that may be
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true, but those may be the very barriers. And
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some of that is self -righteousness. And some
19:57
of it is you wanted good, moral, nice kids. But
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maybe the living Christ needs to be living more
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deeply in your heart and your life. And you begin
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to say, oh God, oh God, I long for my child or
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my grandchild to fully, completely return to
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you or maybe to really meet you for the first
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time. But here's where I want to start. Whatever
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I need to see, whatever I need to address in
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my own life, whatever sin, whatever perspective,
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oh God, speak and work in me first. that I might
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be a tool in your hands to reach my son, my daughter,
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or one of my grandkids. And I don't mean that
20:47
harshly. I've been around this for a long time,
20:50
Aaron, and I've seen where the transformation
20:52
occurs. I have multiple friends whose kids are
20:55
in alternative lifestyles, and the ones who have
20:58
seen, and sometimes it's been a decade, the one
21:01
that's been two decades. He just wouldn't stop
21:06
loving his daughter. And yes, she got married
21:10
to another woman. They adopted kids. And then
21:14
over time. When you sow to the flesh, you do
21:17
reap corruption. And those relationships break
21:20
down, and there's times of pain. And the people
21:23
they come back to are ones that they can respect
21:25
and who've loved them. He never changed his view
21:29
of theology. There were always clear boundaries,
21:32
but he wouldn't stop loving her. And in the midst
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of the pain, the breakup, the relationship, the
21:38
challenges with the kids, she turned to come
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to him to say, Dad. I need your help. And he
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was there. And he just kept building bridges
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and honestly received a lot of rejection along
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the way, not only from her, but from brothers
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and sisters and other people who said, hey, you
21:59
know, you can't take that stance. You just need
22:01
to change your theology. And yet people know.
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down deep in their heart, who they can trust.
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And that's built on what you've talked about.
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And that's been the whole process of not only
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the book, but now the new video and small group
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resource to help parents, grandparents, and pastors
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really learn there is a new way to reach people.
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And it's not telling them a bunch of facts of
22:27
what they need to believe. He exactly nailed
22:31
the heart of this. And then, yeah, there are
22:34
times to talk. But what we teach in the book
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is you go from these relational, loving, friendship
22:40
conversations, which Jesus modeled, by the way,
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right? Jesus was a friend of sinners. Like, that
22:44
was one of the great accusations against Jesus.
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And so he demonstrated that you can love people
22:49
and not affirm the sin in their life, which is
22:52
what he did. But then how do I engage in spiritual
22:55
conversations that serve as a bridge? to Jesus?
22:59
And how do I take the everyday things of life
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that we wrestle with, that we have questions
23:04
about, and ask questions and create an environment
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where people can have these conversations? And
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we've seen that over and over. It opens people's
23:14
hearts to Jesus. Give me a couple of examples
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of that, because, you know, I've watched you
23:19
do this. It's so natural. It's so close to you.
23:22
But let's say I want to sit down with one of
23:24
my grandchildren and they know where I'm coming
23:26
from and they're kind of waiting for the big
23:28
religious things. What kind of questions? I mean,
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the average grandparent and many parents, it's
23:34
not like they're living on social media or they're
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certainly not living on the same sites that they're.
23:41
teenagers or young adults are. So what kind of
23:44
questions, what kind of issues do you find are
23:47
almost universal, whether it's Moscow or Brazil
23:50
or New York City or, you know, rural town Iowa?
23:56
The youth culture is pretty much the same everywhere
23:58
because of what's happened with media and especially
24:01
social media. So help that kind of parent or
24:05
maybe pastor. How do you start these conversations?
24:10
What kind of things do you talk about? Yeah,
24:12
well, I would say some of the big topics that
24:13
are relevant are questions of identity and self
24:16
-worth, questions of... justice. You know, there's
24:22
a real desire for activism of some variety. And
24:26
of course, it's based on activism and social
24:29
justice is based on moral codes of making wrong
24:32
things right and that the world is broken and
24:34
we need to do something about it. Or there's
24:37
a deep desire for belonging and community. All
24:40
these topics, identity, self -worth, justice,
24:43
belonging and community. I mean, the gospel speaks
24:46
to these things profoundly. And these are the
24:49
kinds of things that young people care about,
24:52
that they're wrestling with. And so to have open
24:55
-ended questions about where do you find your
24:59
identity and self -worth or in a world that is
25:02
so broken, where do you get your hope from? Can
25:05
we fix all of this? Or why is it that we desire
25:08
deep, intimate relationships and yet every one
25:11
of us experiences relational brokenness? What
25:14
is that about? And sit in that and wrestle with
25:17
that. necessarily come with all the answers.
25:20
In fact, be honest that some of these questions
25:22
are hard and we wrestle with them too. And the
25:25
idea is create an environment, not where you
25:27
need to convince them that you're right and that
25:30
you've got all the answers, but rather create
25:32
an environment where they can pursue truth. It's
25:36
a very different thing. And that's what I think
25:38
people are hungry for. And it's much more conducive
25:42
for a healthy, open conversation. OK, we're going
25:46
to do something I've never done before. And I
25:48
hope people will listen to more than the next
25:50
sentence because I could get in a lot of trouble
25:53
here. But I'd like to do something I've never
25:55
done is I'd like to role play just for a minute,
25:57
because what you're giving to me are the concepts.
26:00
You're giving me the categories that I've been
26:03
with you and, you know, and I've learned from
26:05
you is, OK, I want to I'm I'm going to go with
26:09
I'm. I'm 24 years old. I've abandoned the faith.
26:14
I'm in a homosexual lifestyle. I get where my
26:18
parents are coming from. They're kind of narrow.
26:21
They believe that stuff. They've hooked their
26:23
Jesus to big groups and all kind of stuff. I've
26:26
pretty much rejected all of that. I really just
26:31
think that my truth is my truth, and I'm working.
26:39
finding a life of meaning on my own. And so I'm
26:43
at a coffee shop, and by now I have a few symbols
26:46
of the alternative lifestyle, whatever you think
26:49
they are. And you walk in, and maybe I'm involved
26:53
in a big justice cause, and we're rallying. We're
26:56
going to make a difference in the world because
26:58
the world's totally messed up. And you meet me.
27:01
So how do you approach me? What kind of questions?
27:06
Where do you go? Well, again, first, depending
27:09
on how well I know you, but my first thing is
27:11
like, tell me how you're doing. How's life? What's
27:14
going on in your world? And then I can go further
27:18
and just start to ask questions about the things
27:21
that you care about. You know, if you've been
27:23
involved in a protest, like, okay, what are you
27:26
doing? What is the protest? What are you hoping
27:30
to accomplish? How did you get involved in that?
27:33
Help me understand your journey. You didn't arrive
27:36
at these views just suddenly. It came through
27:39
a journey. Give me some concept. I want to understand
27:43
your view. And then I want to find things that
27:45
I can affirm. know what i really respect this
27:48
about you i respect that you see that the world
27:51
is broken and i want you to know i'm with you
27:55
I see it too. But I respect that you're not just
27:58
standing by. You're not just kind of going about
28:00
your life. You want to do something about it.
28:02
And I respect that. And I want you to know that
28:06
I'm in agreement with you, that this world is
28:08
broken and we've got to do something about it.
28:11
And then I can begin to challenge or ask some
28:13
questions of like, you know, do you think that
28:15
there's a political solution to what's wrong
28:18
in the world? Do you think that if we get the
28:21
right? politics or the right education, we can
28:24
fix our problems and then ask some questions
28:26
around that. And inevitably, if they're honest,
28:30
they're going to say, well, I don't know. I think
28:32
that that might not be enough. And you're like,
28:34
yeah, I think there's something deeper. There's
28:36
something in my heart. There's a corruption.
28:39
There's a brokenness personally that seems to
28:43
need to be fixed so that I can be at peace with
28:46
others and asking questions around that. So how
28:49
can I find Points of connection. How can I affirm
28:53
the good I see in their life? Or how can I ask
28:56
them about other things in their life? Like,
28:57
you know, they're a human being. They've got
29:00
struggles and brokenness. You know, maybe they've
29:03
got a broken relationship. Or maybe someone close
29:05
to them has been diagnosed with cancer. Or maybe
29:08
they're struggling with some mental health issues.
29:11
Offer to pray. You know, can I pray for you?
29:15
And even if they're not religious, they're not
29:17
likely to reject it. They're going to say, man,
29:19
I know that means you care. And then praying
29:22
for people for their felt needs. So just how
29:25
do I have natural conversations, not feeling
29:28
the need to rush into things, but to draw out
29:33
who they are, the deeper things, the brokenness
29:36
that they experience and to meet them in those
29:38
places. But it takes curiosity. It takes asking
29:43
good questions and listening. It takes patience.
29:46
It also is like. And trusting the Holy Spirit
29:51
to do the work that the Holy Spirit will do and
29:54
not trying to be the hero. Just God, what do
29:57
you want me to do in this moment? And trusting
30:00
that he will lead the conversation where he wants
30:02
to lead. If you kind of come in with that approach,
30:04
rather than I got to get my answers out, I got
30:07
to get my gospel script out, rather just relaxing
30:11
and trying to understand the person, it's a very
30:13
different posture. So I hope that was specific
30:15
enough. Yeah. And I think a lot of... people
30:19
listening right now will feel like, gosh, that
30:20
feels like I'm compromising. That feels like
30:22
I'm not standing up for the truth. That feels
30:25
like I'm not being the kind of Christian I need
30:26
to be. And, you know, one of the things, you
30:31
know, I think both in your book and then in the
30:33
small group resource. You give us some snapshots
30:37
of Jesus through a little bit different lens.
30:39
We tend to put Jesus inside the church, inside
30:44
our lens, and in the small group resource, you
30:48
help us see that Jesus is talking with an immoral
30:52
woman in a very private place. You help us understand
30:58
that he's with a group of people that are in
31:01
a pretty big party that are... whose lifestyles
31:05
are way, way out there, and he's being accused
31:08
of a lot of things. And he does, I forget, someone
31:12
listed the number of questions in the New Testament
31:16
that Jesus asks. And I mean, it's like 70 to
31:20
1 to how many answers that he gives. He constantly
31:24
is helping people come to conclusions, because
31:28
at the end of the day, there really is a huge
31:30
inconsistency. But purpose, Loneliness, identity,
31:35
hurts, wounds, we all have them. They're just
31:41
living in a different world and they've been
31:43
given a set of answers. fix it short term and
31:47
then bring a lot of pain. Tell us a little bit
31:50
about how, as you have developed the small group
31:53
resource, I know, you know, we worked on this
31:55
together and then your team filmed this because
31:58
you realized you can't keep flying around all
32:00
these churches and doing these seminars. How
32:04
has that gone? How's it been received? What are
32:07
the strengths? What are the minuses? What do
32:08
you say to that person who says, you know what?
32:12
I guess I'm willing to try anything right now.
32:14
My approach isn't working. I'm really open, and
32:18
maybe not just for my own kids, but for the young
32:21
people in our church. And we can't keep doing
32:23
the same things in church and seeing the same
32:26
negative results. I'm talking to one of those
32:29
people, say, you know what? I'm open. If there's
32:31
a different way to reach him, help us understand
32:35
what's been effective and maybe what suggestions
32:38
you've learned. I think that this, I mean, it's
32:41
been incredibly effective. We've seen just incredible
32:43
feedback and many testimonies of how it's had
32:47
impact in people's lives. I think, you know,
32:49
in the end, the principles, the biblical principles
32:52
are not that, they're not all that revolutionary.
32:55
They're just, how do I apply biblical principles
32:57
to our current cultural moment? Right. Which
33:00
is really what it's about. And it's also sometimes
33:03
we've relegated evangelism to a certain kind
33:07
of person with a certain kind of personality.
33:09
And if I don't really fit that personality, then
33:12
I guess it's not for me. And so this is designed
33:15
to create a kind of just a process that you can
33:19
follow that's biblically grounded, that really
33:21
anyone can apply because, you know, you don't
33:23
have to be this crazy extroverted person or someone
33:26
that knows all the apologetic answers. is can
33:29
you be a good friend? Can you follow the example
33:32
of Jesus by becoming a friend of sinners? Can
33:34
you intentionally pursue people in your sphere
33:37
of influence that today are not following Jesus
33:39
and engage in spiritual conversations, which
33:42
is just an extension of a meaningful friendship?
33:45
If you have meaningful friendships with people,
33:47
you're going to ask more than just the weather
33:49
and sports. You're going to get into deeper things
33:51
because you care. And then if I'm really sharing
33:53
my life with someone, they're going to know that
33:55
I love Jesus, that he changed my life, that it's
33:59
because of him. that I have peace in this broken
34:01
world. And so how can I do this in a way that's
34:04
intentional? Still requires courage and boldness
34:08
and faith, but it makes sense in the context.
34:10
And it connects with people who probably, if
34:14
my only way engaging them is to pull out a gospel
34:17
script or to invite them to church, which are
34:19
all, those are fine. Those are good things to
34:21
do. But there's a big segment of people, particularly
34:24
younger people, that just won't connect with
34:26
that. And so this is relational, but yes, it's
34:29
bold too, because Jesus is the answer and we
34:32
need to preach Christ and him crucified, but
34:34
it's doing it in a way that people can understand.
34:37
And if I could just make the last point, like
34:39
the whole heart of this is how do I communicate
34:41
Jesus in a relevant way? And relevance does not
34:45
mean watering it down. Relevance does not mean
34:48
compromising theologically or morally. Relevance
34:50
is about communicating in a way that people will
34:53
understand. And then, of course, they have to
34:56
make their own choices. But I think that's the
34:58
distinction is we're trying to make Jesus accessible
35:02
so they can understand who he is. And again,
35:04
people then have to make their choices from there.
35:07
I think one of the observations that some really
35:09
smart apologists have made is they've I think
35:13
of Sean McDowell and others that... are working
35:16
with young people all the time, teaching at Biola,
35:18
a professor there. You know, he just said, you
35:21
know, in times past, you could start because
35:23
there was a common understanding. You could start
35:25
with the truth and then explain grace. And today,
35:29
we need to flip that. You have to start with
35:31
grace and help people see and understand. Back
35:34
then, you had to win an argument. Now you need
35:37
to win a hearing. Your life and your care and
35:40
your concern. And it's not either or. It's just
35:43
a little bit different order. Well, okay, let's
35:47
jump to a little bit different, more controversial
35:49
side of things. Can I just add to that grace
35:53
and truth thing? I think that's exactly right.
35:56
I also think that the flip is, in the past, you
35:59
had to believe before you could belong. Yes.
36:02
And maybe even behave before you believe before
36:05
you belong. And I think today we want to create
36:08
spaces where people can belong before they believe.
36:11
That's what our whole Bible study for the nonreligious
36:14
is about, is create a space for community that
36:16
they long for even before they believe. So I
36:19
think that we're kind of, we're not saying that
36:21
belief doesn't matter. We're not saying that
36:23
truth doesn't matter. We're just saying that
36:25
sometimes you have to approach it in a different
36:27
way. And that means inviting people over for
36:30
dinner. And even if you don't share the gospel
36:32
or tell your testimony, it's a wonderful thing.
36:36
It's meeting for coffee. It's going in with five
36:39
questions to say, you know, I read all about
36:42
this loneliness epidemic. How are your friends
36:45
dealing with all of that? What could I do to
36:48
support them? And I will say one thing that you
36:51
really hit on that I have found personally have
36:54
been. And, you know, like I'm an old white guy.
36:57
OK, so I mean, there's there's no getting around
36:59
it. And so when I'm connecting with people that
37:02
are maybe really far from God and they see me
37:05
just like everyone sort of makes preconceived
37:07
ideas about you. I'm thinking building a bridge
37:10
for me might be a little bit harder than other
37:12
people. But as I just sought to be compassionate
37:16
and look people in the eye and ask a few questions.
37:20
And I can't help my eyes kind of tearing up when
37:23
I hear some of the brokenness. I have done things
37:27
in coffee shops or street corners or with homeless
37:30
people because they find themselves in tragic
37:33
situations and put their hand on their shoulder
37:36
and say, would you be okay? I'm a follower of
37:40
Jesus. He cares about you. Could I pray for you?
37:45
One out of a hundred times, someone's looked
37:48
at me and said, no way. I mean, the response
37:52
to a genuine loving moment. And by the way, I
37:57
don't pray the gospel out loud so that I make
38:00
sure they get it. I want them to experience the
38:04
compassion, the love of God, and that he cares
38:07
and that he would reveal himself to them. And
38:11
then often, when appropriate, with men, usually
38:15
not with women, but the physical touch. people
38:20
who are so isolated and hurting, we got to remember
38:23
the depth of their soul to get a hug from someone
38:28
in an appropriate way or to meet a need right
38:32
then. Hey, why don't we go inside and let me
38:34
buy you a meal? Or, you know, I've got some friends
38:38
that might be able to help you. You talked about
38:41
you need some work, whatever that is. Those practical
38:44
things that build bridges that say, I don't just
38:48
care. You know, 1 John 3 .18 says, let us not
38:51
love with word or tongue, but in deed and truth.
38:54
We actually do something to help them. I think
38:58
that's a really important part of this. I want
39:01
to shift gears because all this sounds kind of
39:03
great in general. And then the politics comes
39:07
up. Gender comes up. Homosexuality comes up.
39:10
You mentioned the name of a political figure
39:13
on the left or on the right. What I loved most
39:17
about the book, and I know you cover it in the
39:19
small group resource, you actually talk about
39:22
diving deep into those things in a way that don't
39:27
alienate because you can't get around them in
39:30
our world. I mean, you can't have a conversation
39:33
where those things that immediately polarize
39:37
and divide. So give us a little insight about
39:41
how do you do that? I'm at work. I work with
39:44
a lot of people that have a very different view
39:46
of life and God. I want to reach them, especially
39:49
younger people. And these are the kind of things
39:52
that are absolute discussion stoppers and relationship
39:55
stoppers. Could you give us, and you can't go
39:59
through the whole small group resource, but could
40:01
you give us some cues, some how have you learned
40:05
to navigate those controversial in a way that
40:10
doesn't just kill the relationship. Yeah. Well,
40:13
it goes back to something you said earlier, Chip,
40:15
which is that I think it starts with me. And
40:17
have I got my priorities right? And the core
40:22
here is that we don't make secondary things primary,
40:25
which is like the goal is for people to meet
40:29
Jesus. And when they meet Jesus and they encounter
40:32
the beauty of who he is, it's like that old hymn,
40:35
you know, look, look onto Jesus, look full onto
40:38
his face and the things that this earth will
40:39
grow strangely dim. When you meet Jesus, everything
40:42
else fades away. And so what happens though,
40:46
is when we take secondary things like our political
40:48
ideology or even morality, which is a downstream
40:52
impact of when I encounter Jesus and I trust
40:55
him, then I submit myself to him. When I make
40:58
those things, primary and I put them in front
41:01
of Jesus, I actually make it harder for people
41:03
to see Jesus. And so the challenge is for me
41:07
that am I pointing people to Jesus or am I pointing
41:10
them to something secondary that I've elevated
41:13
to primary? And I think that's the first thing
41:16
to do. The second thing is to recognize that
41:19
beneath The hostility and the conviction that
41:23
people present when it comes to sexuality and
41:26
politics and science and other things like that,
41:29
actually right beneath that is an ocean of brokenness
41:32
and confusion. And so just not taking the bait,
41:35
not looking to argue at that superficial level,
41:39
but get deeper. Because in the end, politics
41:42
is about... peace. It's about justice. It's about
41:46
order in the world. It's about how do I respond
41:49
to the brokenness? Well, the gospel speaks clearly
41:52
to those things. Sexuality ultimately is about
41:55
belonging, intimacy, love, relationships, deep,
42:00
meaningful things. So rather than arguing at
42:03
the superficial level, let's... Let's find places
42:06
of connection at the deeper level and then point
42:09
to how Jesus answers those things. And so I think
42:12
it's reframing it that way. Yeah, I've witnessed
42:14
this. Could you share a story of someone that,
42:18
you know, with regard to their morality, their
42:21
politics, all the kind of things that the average
42:24
person would say, there is no way that person's
42:26
ever going to respond to Jesus. Could you tell
42:28
us a story? In fact, I've read just a couple
42:30
recently as I, you know, I get your email and
42:33
things. how this happens in someone's life. Maybe,
42:39
you know, we've talked about concepts that provide
42:41
truth and a skeleton and some general direction,
42:45
but maybe put some clothes on it. Maybe tell
42:48
me a story that I could say, oh, so, and don't,
42:53
you know, I don't want you to, you know, reveal
42:55
anything about a specific person that would,
42:58
you know, not be appropriate, but whatever you're
43:02
free to share, that would really be helpful to
43:04
people. Yeah, I mean, I have so many. I remember,
43:08
you know, I live in Minneapolis, so we've had
43:10
a lot of political unrest over the years here,
43:12
which, of course, that brings all sorts of challenges,
43:15
but it also brings opportunities. And so when
43:17
these challenges arise, our team tends to go
43:20
and find places where we can connect with people.
43:22
And I remember one time connecting with a couple.
43:25
They looked, you know, as they were very alternative
43:29
dress, very they kind of had the look of a very
43:32
particular kind of political perspective. and
43:34
the kind of perspective that often would see
43:37
Christians as their enemy. And we went and talked
43:40
to them, sat down and just had a conversation
43:42
about why they were there and why their hearts
43:45
were broken over this. And we just began to talk
43:48
about the brokenness of the world. And I've already
43:50
alluded to it, which is like, you know, we see
43:52
all this brokenness, but do you think that we're
43:54
going to solve it with politics? And then inevitably
43:56
they're like, no. And then you can go deeper
43:58
and you're like, you talk about my own brokenness,
44:01
the brokenness of the world, but what about my?
44:03
brokenness or the brokenness of my family. And,
44:06
you know, we all desire these intimate relationships.
44:09
These are the conversations we're having. But
44:12
why is it that we all experience relational brokenness?
44:15
And asking questions, do you think there's someone
44:17
that will never hurt you or disappoint you? And
44:20
they begin to open up and say, you know, I've
44:22
experienced betrayal. I've experienced heartbreak.
44:26
And then I can share, you know, I believe that
44:30
God sees that. He sees your pain. He sees the
44:34
cry of your heart and he cries with you and that
44:37
he sent Jesus to bring healing, to bring forgiveness,
44:43
to bring reconciliation, which is what we all
44:46
require. And that actually Jesus is the answer
44:49
to what you're looking for. So, you know, at
44:51
a political rally, I can talk about Jesus because
44:54
he's the source to the greater brokenness, to
44:57
the fundamental brokenness that we face. But
44:59
I have so many other examples. I've met with
45:01
a guy. He was gay. We connected with him at an
45:06
outreach. And he told me that he had a small
45:08
business. He was an artist. And so the thing
45:11
is, even though the world tells you that their
45:13
sexuality is their primary identity, it's not.
45:16
People have all sorts of things that are going
45:18
on in their life. And I don't have to just connect
45:20
in that space. So I have a little bit of a business
45:23
background. I said, hey, let's meet and let me
45:25
help you walk through your business plan. And
45:28
so we met for coffee and we began to talk about
45:30
his business plan. And we were talking various
45:31
practical things. And then eventually we moved
45:34
to some topics, some spiritual topics, which
45:37
is identity and purpose, which are critical to
45:40
the whole sexuality topic. And I talked about,
45:42
hey, you're starting this business. And starting
45:46
a small business is hard. Most fail. And you
45:48
need to root yourself in an identity. that won't
45:52
be shaken by the storms that you're going to
45:54
face. You need something that you can hold on
45:56
to. Because if you put your identity in something
45:59
that can be taken from you, then you're vulnerable
46:02
to circumstances. And I shared how for me, my
46:06
identity was found in the unconditional love
46:08
of God, that I was a child of God and that that
46:11
identity could not be taken from me. And I had
46:14
a conversation with this guy using business.
46:17
Yeah, he was gay, but we talked about business
46:20
that I could connect to identity and where we
46:23
find our identity so conversations like that
46:25
we can have all the time and we have many conversations
46:28
like that well it takes time and it takes patience
46:32
and I think it's a long play that I think what
46:36
we miss. And, you know, I happen to know a little
46:39
bit about that story because you and I have talked
46:40
before. And what you just described didn't happen
46:43
the very first time you met him. I mean, you
46:46
sat down in a circle while all the things were
46:49
going on. You ask him why they were there. You're
46:51
motivated. Gosh, you know, you seem really, really
46:54
angry about some things. And you listen to all
46:57
their anger and why and which politicians they
47:00
hated and what was happening in the world. completely
47:02
broken. And then you ask him some why questions
47:06
and which led to some reoccurring relationships
47:10
that built the kind of safety that you're talking
47:13
about. And so I think for some of us, it just
47:16
realizes we got to get out of our Christian cocoon
47:19
and out of I go to church on this day. I live
47:22
my life over here. If you want to see people
47:27
know Jesus, you have to go where they are. You
47:33
have to make time taken away from other things.
47:38
And for some of you, that's your own kids. And
47:41
because they've rejected you, you're living in
47:43
hurt. Well, they rejected me. Well, and it's
47:47
passive aggressive. And now you're rejecting
47:49
them by not being engaged. Well, I'm not going
47:52
to go to that. And I'm not going to be involved
47:53
in that. And guess what? The enemy is winning
47:56
when that's your attitude. And it takes. tremendous
48:00
humility to grasp, hey, I may be right, but being
48:05
right is not as important right now as having
48:08
the right attitude and developing the right relationship
48:11
as a bridge with absolutely no compromise to
48:15
what I believe about Scripture, about Jesus,
48:18
about salvation. And it will require a cost.
48:22
And I would just say to those listening, If you
48:28
really care deeply about your own children and
48:32
grandchildren, and if you are concerned about
48:35
the world, and maybe especially America, since
48:38
we're living here, and the movement that you
48:41
see, the change doesn't happen by someone coming
48:45
on a white horse. Now, that will happen one day
48:47
when the Lord returns. But it's going to happen
48:50
one person at a time, one small group, one little
48:55
group of friends, one... community at a time,
48:58
who says, we refuse to continue to live the way
49:03
we're living. We must build relationships. It
49:07
makes us uncomfortable. We don't know exactly
49:09
how to do it, but we can't not do it. And I just
49:14
want to say that you guys are modeling that.
49:17
And I tell people this, Aaron, is I think you
49:21
all are modeling that here and around the world.
49:25
more effectively than anyone I know. I'm not
49:27
saying there's other people that aren't doing
49:28
it as well and great things happening. Just in
49:31
my personal experience, if anyone wanted to know
49:34
how to reach the next generation, what you all
49:38
actually do, not just talk about, is the model
49:43
that I see in the New Testament. In fact, the
49:45
one thing you said, it was so interesting, when
49:47
I watched your process, and, you know, I'm sort
49:51
of a synthesizer, and so, you know, I organized
49:55
it in my mind, and, you know, this is how you
49:57
could communicate it and codify it, and here's
50:00
how we would write about it. But I remember thinking,
50:03
you guys just are doing what Jesus did, and you
50:08
are seeing the same results that Jesus had. And
50:12
the Bible's really clear, not wishy -washy love,
50:17
but love, absolute, sacrificial, costly. Other
50:24
-centered, desperate prayer, fervent prayer,
50:28
love never fails. And that's the hope that we
50:33
have. And the resource that you all put together
50:37
along with the book, the new small group resource,
50:40
I think Dave will tell everyone about how they
50:44
can get that. Any final thoughts as we wrap things
50:47
up here in terms of talking to that? Especially
50:52
my heart goes out. Your conversations are, you
50:55
know, a little different age group. If I had
50:59
$100 for every parent or grandparent that I've
51:04
talked to that are shaking their head and in
51:07
tears, I don't get it. I don't know what happened.
51:10
As far as I knew, we were sincere. We were intentional.
51:13
We did everything right. How did we end up here?
51:17
I would be a very, very, very rich person. And
51:19
those people are hurting, Aaron. Yeah, I know.
51:22
And a lot of them are a part of who listen in
51:24
or do studies with Living on the Edge. Could
51:27
you give them just a word of hope as we wrap
51:29
things up? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I guess I
51:32
would say that God sees your heart and he sees
51:36
your tears and he knows the grief. The confusion,
51:40
the disappointment, and even the questions you've
51:43
wrestled with, maybe asking yourself, did I fail?
51:45
Did I do something wrong? These are real questions,
51:47
and you're not alone in asking them. But I guess
51:50
I want to encourage you with this. Your child's
51:52
story is not over. And God has not stopped working.
51:57
Even when you don't see it, he is pursuing. I
52:00
think that's what gives me so much hope is that
52:03
God loves your child more than you love your
52:06
child. And he left the 99 to go after the one
52:10
and he continues to do that. And God is active
52:13
and moving in the world. I can say it. I can
52:15
testify it. We are seeing young. Christian leaders
52:19
raised up, fueling grassroots movement, reaching
52:22
people like your kids right now. That they are
52:26
with them in the clubs, the cafes, the universities,
52:30
the music festivals, the spaces where they are,
52:32
befriending them and sharing Jesus. And we are
52:34
seeing God moving. And so I just want you to
52:36
know God is on the move. He is raising up a new
52:40
generation of radical young people. And so, again,
52:45
the encouragement here is we are just one part
52:48
of what God is doing. You are one part of what
52:50
God is doing. You don't have to hold it all together.
52:53
It doesn't depend entirely on you. Do your part.
52:57
Get on your knees and cry out to God. Pursue
52:59
your child. Meet them on their turf and respond
53:02
to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. But ultimately,
53:05
God is doing the work. on the move. And so our
53:08
hope is not in ourselves. It's not in our perfect
53:11
parenting. It's not in having all the right answers.
53:14
Our hope is in Jesus. And that's what gives me
53:18
confidence. Amen. Thank you, Aaron. You're listening
53:25
to Living on the Edge with a special discussion
53:27
between our Bible teacher, Chip Ingram, and his
53:30
good friend, Aaron Pierce. Today's message is
53:33
titled, Understanding the Global Youth Culture,
53:35
part of our series, Caring Enough to Connect,
53:38
Building Bridges to Those We Love. Now, if you
53:41
missed any part of today's conversation, you
53:43
can easily catch up anytime at livingontheedge
53:46
.org. Aaron's advice today was simple, but not
53:50
easy. Go where lost people go. Don't judge them.
53:54
Ask good questions and really listen. And let
53:57
safety come long before you ever get to truth
53:59
-telling. And that's exactly the kind of practical,
54:02
field -tested wisdom Aaron unpacks in his book,
54:05
Not Beyond Reach. It walks you step -by -step
54:08
from friendship to spiritual conversation to
54:11
the gospel itself, without ever feeling like
54:14
a script. You can get your copy right now at
54:17
a special price by going to livingontheedge .org.
54:21
And if this conversation is exactly what your
54:24
family, your small group, or your church needs,
54:27
we invite you to stand with us financially today.
54:30
Your gift helps keep teaching like this on the
54:32
air and across digital media, reaching people
54:35
who feel far from God all across the country.
54:39
We've made it easy to give online. Just go to
54:42
livingontheedge .org or call and give over the
54:46
phone by dialing 888 -333 -6003. You can also
54:51
send your gift by mail to Living on the Edge,
54:54
P .O. Box 3007, Sewanee, Georgia 30024. Now let
55:00
me hand things over to Chip Ingram as we wrap
55:03
up this impactful discussion. Thanks so much,
55:05
Dave. You know, today we've talked about a very
55:08
different way to reach the next generation, and
55:12
Aaron did it so naturally. It's what he does.
55:16
It's where he's been, starting this conversation,
55:19
building rapport, talking about these kind of
55:21
issues. That doesn't come naturally to most of
55:25
us. We have answers we want to give. If you want
55:28
to learn how to really connect with your child,
55:32
your young adult, your grandchild, or as a pastor,
55:35
you want to develop something that reaches the
55:38
next generation in your church, let me tell you,
55:41
the tool you need to get is this Not Beyond Reach
55:44
small group resource. It is designed to help
55:47
you personally, your group, or your church actually
55:50
do what we talked about. Let me encourage you.
55:53
Don't think about it. Actually do it. You'll
55:56
be glad you did. Once again, you can find Aaron's
55:59
book, Not Beyond Reach, by going to livingontheedge
56:01
.org slash offers. Well, next time, Chip returns
56:05
to his own teaching on what it actually takes
56:08
to build great relationships. Join us then here
56:11
on Living on the Edge. Today's program is produced
56:17
and sponsored by Living on the Edge.