Latest / The Curve / How to Negotiate a Pay Rise with Meggie Palmer (from the archives).

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How to Negotiate a Pay Rise with Meggie Palmer (from the archives). · The Curve

• 0:00
  Welcome to Raisin the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything that you need to know
• 0:04
  to be better with your money. Come and learn alongside me, Sophie Hallwright, a total beginner
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  from the finance expert Victoria Harris. So I've asked all of the questions you wish you could
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  link in the podcast show notes. Thank you so much to fresh start for both feeding me and fueling
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  my body with all of the goodness and for sponsoring this podcast. So this conversation with the
• 2:04
  amazing Maggie Palmer felt too powerful really to stay in the archives of our podcast episode.
• 2:10
  So we're bringing it back. We're giving it some life. We're giving it a resurgence.
• 2:15
  And for those of you who haven't listened, it's an incredible conversation. So it's relevant,
• 2:20
  if not probably more relevant actually now, then when we first dropped it. So Maggie found it
• 2:25
  an incredible company called Pepp talk her and it's to help woman get paid and promoted much faster.
• 2:32
  So she's got a journalism background. She's incredibly passionate. She's got incredible
• 2:37
  amounts of energy and she isn't afraid to call out the bullshit. So we love Maggie and she has
• 2:44
  taught us so much about breaking down the art of negotiation. She also shares her own pay gap
• 2:50
  story, which is quite shocking and gives you the tools to actually make sure you stand out and
• 2:56
  own your worth and own your values. So for a bit of a refresher, here's one from the archives.
• 3:06
  Hi. I think this is our first international correspondent. We had Sophie London for you also. She
• 3:13
  was technically out there. It doesn't count. You'll wait a little bit. I'll climb it.
• 3:18
  Maggie is on the podcast today. She runs an amazing platform called Pepp talk her,
• 3:25
  which maybe I'll throw it over to you and you can kind of explain what Pepp talk her is all about.
• 3:31
  Yeah. Love to. For sure. So my whole stick is like, let's close that gender pay gap. It's total
• 3:36
  BS. I'm not happy about it and I'm here to change it. So yeah, that's my whole thing is like to help
• 3:42
  professional women get paid more and get promoted way quicker. We did it come about like what
• 3:47
  was the kind that did you have some moments where you were like, no, if this the sucks, I'm over it.
• 3:52
  What were kind of the moments where you're like, want to do something about this? Totally. Yeah,
• 3:57
  I did. So I was originally a journalist for 15 years. You probably tell from my accent that
• 4:04
  I'm sadly not a Kiwi. I am an Aussie, very proud one, but I know we've been a lot of listens
• 4:08
  from all around the world today. So yeah, side of my career in journalism in Australia. I loved
• 4:12
  it like the best job. It was so fab. I traveled all around the world doing really interesting stories,
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  meeting fascinating people who, you know, it's a real privilege to be a reporter because people let
• 4:23
  you into their lives, you know, at the highest of highs and also sadly at the lowest of lows. And so
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  really loved my job. I was in Australia. I was in London with the BBC Worlds, you know, covering
• 4:34
  stories from Syria to Italy and most countries in between. And, you know, long story short,
• 4:39
  basically, I had an experience during my career where I found out quite by accident actually that my
• 4:44
  pay was a heap less than the blocs who I worked alongside. And so I guess to your point, so
• 4:50
  if it's true before 8. Well, that sounds like so unfamiliar. Yeah, strange. I'm such a like one
• 4:56
  million, not like everyone who's listening is probably had, well, I hope you haven't, but it's
• 5:01
  likely that, you know, a lot of our listeners have had a similar experience, right? We know that
• 5:05
  the gender pay gap sits at around 20%. It's a little higher in some countries, a little lower in
• 5:10
  other Western countries, but it's about 20% right that we're earning less. And even though it's
• 5:16
  typically illegal to pay women less for doing the same job, we all know it's happening, right? Like,
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  you know, to your point, Victorian, so if you like 100% it's happening. And the sad thing is,
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  is that like to prove it, you have to be willing to go to court, you know, and that's an expense and
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  a stress that obviously a lot of people want to take on. I guess you can't, the only other way to
• 5:35
  prove it would be to get everybody else's salaries at your workplace, which a lot of people don't
• 5:41
  disclose or don't feel comfortable disclosing and then presenting them to your boss saying, hey,
• 5:45
  look, I'm actually getting paid a lot less, but hold on, I'm confused. What do you mean take it to court?
• 5:48
  I feel like I've missed a giant piece of this puzzle. So it's illegal to pay women less for doing
• 5:55
  the same job. So it's illegal, right? Like, so in theory, you actually can't pay someone with
• 6:00
  the same experience and the same job title less purely because of their gender. So you're not
• 6:06
  able to pay 100% quite right there because of race, cultural background, all of those things.
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  So it's illegal to do that. But as I found out, it 100% happens. And again, you know, I'm hearing
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  from hundreds of women every week in our community that it's happening to them too. And some of them
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  to your point of the trade, they have the data. Like, they know, like sometimes it falls off
• 6:26
  of a photocopier or sometimes they'll get an anonymous tip off via email. You know, we've seen
• 6:31
  that in court cases here in the US as well. But, you know, people will take it to HR and sometimes
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  HR will be like, oh, well, or managers will be like, well, you know, well, I don't know. Like,
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  it's hard often to get that change even though you know that like, this is not cool. And also,
• 6:49
  it's illegal, right? So I had no idea that it was illegal. Yeah, but you can't discriminate
• 6:55
  based on gender. Yeah, but I didn't realise that it was something that you could go to, you know,
• 6:59
  that you could literally take to court. That's so bad at us. Yeah. A woman doing that that you
• 7:04
  work with or no. I mean, like, it's so stressful, right? So when I found that I was getting paid less,
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  I raised it because I just thought it was a mistake. I was like, oh, this is just a bit of a
• 7:15
  missing a zero. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, well, I wasn't quite a zero, but it was like,
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  you know, it was a lot. It was not not quite a zero, but it was like, you know, it was a little
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  less like 10 gay 20k. No, no, no, no, no, no, we're talking like, yeah, a lot less, a lot less.
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  And I raised it and they were like, yeah, yeah. So if you don't like it, you could quit or we'll
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  see you in court. You're like quarters. Sorry. And they were like, yeah, no, no, like whatever,
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  like basically they just kind of like they sort of, I guess they were kind of trying to play my
• 7:48
  bluff, right? Like they thought, you know, she's like lucky to have this job. She's got a great
• 7:54
  role as a reporter. Like, you know, she's not going to rock the boat. And I was like, are you
• 7:58
  everything serious? So I got a lawyer and we didn't get to court because, you know, as most of
• 8:03
  these cases, we just for a second take a moment to be like, I just am so proud of you in a non-conditioning
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  way. Really, I think it takes so much courage to be the one that's like, I'm actually going to
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  stamp my feet. This is not okay. And not a lot of women would have been like, this is too hard.
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  Like, I'm just going to, I'm going to walk away or go back to the desk and be like, oh, maybe I'm
• 8:24
  not with it. Maybe, maybe I do need to just shut up. And well, it's really hard. And you know,
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  I think people listening who might have had some of these feelings, it's also not your fault,
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  right? It's because we're socialized. We've been socialized from a super young age to question
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  our worth and to not openly talk about money, you know, because we're treated differently from a
• 8:42
  super young age to boys, right? Which we can talk about in a minute. But, you know, I also want to
• 8:46
  acknowledge my privilege, you know, I had savings because I, my mom taught me from a super young
• 8:51
  age. You always save a percentage of your salary. So I had a safety net. I didn't have a mortgage.
• 8:56
  I didn't have children. My family was not depending on me. So it was really like, I didn't have a
• 9:02
  lot to lose. And I felt very, you know, responsible in some ways to take up the challenge because I
• 9:07
  was like, if I don't, and if they do that to someone who's pregnant or to someone who's the
• 9:12
  breadwinner or to someone who doesn't have as much faith or confidence in themselves as I do,
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  I knew I'd get another job. I was like, you're kidding, I'll be right, you know? And so like,
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  so I was, I was not happy to do it because no one wants to ever have to call a lawyer, of course.
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  But like, I also just kind of felt like, well, I have to because I can, you know, and I could
• 9:31
  afford to pay the lawyer and I had family and friend support and all that kind of stuff. So, you
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  know, and a lot of people don't have that. If you don't have lawyers in your family or lawyers
• 9:38
  that are friends that can give you that initial advice, you wouldn't even know that it was an
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  option often. You know, I'm sorry to interrupt. Sorry. I'm just going to say like, you know, there's
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  a lot of people who also would be so scared to lose their job. And because they'd be so worried,
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  they won't get another one that they wouldn't rock the boat. So that you have the fact that you
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  like had all of these contributing factors and that confidence to know, like actually know if this.
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  And was it different once you engage the lawyer and like, did you get, did you get the pay rise
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  and then what was it like culturally afterwards? I wouldn't recommend it. And again, you know,
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  again, just to acknowledge like, I am a white middle class woman, right? So it's a lot easier
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  for me to go through this process than it is for many of our listeners today, right?
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  Who are facing a lot more unconscious bias and discrimination than I ever have in my career.
• 10:29
  You know, so I know it's a first world problem really being pay less even though it's totally
• 10:33
  bullshit and we're going to get into it. But yeah, it was the worst. I experienced anxiety for the first
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  time. Wouldn't recommend it on the one hand, but on the other hand, like, you know, you kind of have
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  to stand up. Otherwise, this kind of shit keeps happening, right? So it's a really hard balance. I was
• 10:48
  lucky. I felt that I could do it. I felt that I had the strength to do it. So if that's you, like,
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  power to you and feel free to message me on, you know, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on all of the
• 10:57
  socials and stuff. Feel free to reach out because that's why I started pet talker because they
• 11:00
  didn't want other people to have to go through what I went through. And, you know, the UN,
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  the United Nations tells us that we're looking at like more than 200 years before we get to equality.
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  So I'm kind of not cool with that. I want to try and like help that conversation along to kind of
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  inch a little bit quicker than that. And so that's, you know, pet talker is obviously a very tiny
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  cog in a wheel of multiple facets of change, right? Like it's government change, it's business
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  change, it's, you know, it's conversations like what you host on this amazing podcast, like it's
• 11:31
  people listening today can start the change by talking about their salary, by encouraging
• 11:36
  their nieces to negotiate that first salary, by supporting others in their workplace,
• 11:41
  by calling out BS behavior at work, you know, we all have a role to play in moving a little closer
• 11:47
  to equality. I wish this was like not even a conversation, but unfortunately it is, right? So,
• 11:52
  you know, we'll get there eventually. I feel so inspired though. I have so many questions. I'm
• 11:59
  so good that we're having this conversation. And I want more and more people to have this conversation.
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  And for more to men to realize as well, you know, their role in playing and helping us achieve
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  equality. But yeah, I do hope that, you know, my children and my children's children,
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  it isn't a gender pay gap. But there's just so much. It seems like we're moving its
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  snails pace and like women have come so far and so many other things. It's like, why is this
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  one thing? It's so frustrating. But I definitely see it in the finance industry like so much.
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  It's ridiculous. Not only is there just a lack of females, but it's, yeah, the ones that are in
• 12:36
  their, it's, it's definitely, and I've had a similar situation to you where I found out I was
• 12:39
  getting paid 40% less than my male colleagues. Was it 40%? Yeah. And I hit up my work. And what
• 12:47
  did they say? Well, because I can't, I accidentally, HR had actually accidentally printed the
• 12:53
  bonuses. I love it when that happens. Yeah. And there was like the salary, you know, obviously,
• 12:58
  it paid a bonus according to salary. And so there was a salary, and I kind of sat down and was like,
• 13:04
  what do I do with this information? Like it was hardcore. Yeah. And it was kind of like,
• 13:11
  and then we went into the salary negotiation just, I guess, with a, with more confidence,
• 13:16
  because I knew that what I was asking, like, I was like, they just can't be a no. Like,
• 13:22
  it's ridiculous. Like, they're not going to say no to me because I've got this information.
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  Anyway, they said no. They said come back in six months time. And I was like, oh,
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  and then I went back to my desk and I was sitting there and I was like, oh, you know,
• 13:34
  maybe I don't work as hard as John and oh, maybe I, maybe I am a little bit less experienced.
• 13:39
  You know, and you start, you know, self-reinforcing, you know, why you why you don't deserve it.
• 13:45
  And then six months later, I asked and they gave me like, I think it was like $2,000. Like it was
• 13:50
  just like a job. And then I got approached by another employee, employer, and I went to my current
• 13:56
  employer and said, look, I'm leaving. And they were like, oh, my gosh, please tell us what we
• 14:00
  can do to make you stay. I was like, sorry. Have I been talking to, like, to deaf ears? I have
• 14:07
  asked you time and time again. And you've literally, you know, chat on my worth, effectively,
• 14:13
  in my value. And so see you later. And it was kind of, I see when I left, I was like, next time,
• 14:19
  when employees, you know, ask for this or think that they're worth more listened to them.
• 14:24
  And did you say that? Yeah, we had an accident view. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't a dick about
• 14:29
  it. I was just like, this is why I had to leave because my worth was valued somewhere else.
• 14:33
  But it was, I think it was the same situation you knew. I knew that I could get employed
• 14:36
  somewhere else. Yeah. So it was an easier decision than someone else. Another female might have.
• 14:42
  You think there's something wrong with you? But there's a system. It's a systemic problem. But
• 14:47
  the numbers make you think, well, it must be me. John, maybe John does work harder. Maybe John
• 14:51
  is better. No, no. Nine times out of 10, it's not that, you know, from your experience, if
• 14:56
  if that had been in that situation and we'd already talked, would it have been a good idea to say,
• 15:03
  hi, look, I realized that this is like not a normal way to go about it. But I by chance found
• 15:09
  this. And so I know what difference being paid. I'd love an explanation as to why I'm being paid
• 15:13
  40% less. You didn't steal it. You didn't do anything wrong. So it's kind of like in what situation
• 15:20
  could you have done something with that? It's really hard because with all these things,
• 15:25
  you know, and when I raised this, it irreparably damaged my relationship with my employer. So I,
• 15:30
  you know, there was no, they were like, oh, you can still come back. And I was like, I can't,
• 15:34
  you and I both know I can't. Like that's not. So it's one of those things. Like if you are happy to
• 15:39
  leave, if you want to leave, if you've got another option, then you can kind of not go nuclear
• 15:44
  because that has a negative connotation, but you can kind of put all your cards on the table.
• 15:47
  Typically, a lot of the clients that I work with, you know, they need the job, you know,
• 15:52
  they might be earning a couple hundred thousand dollars, something like that. So it's like,
• 15:56
  it's a big decision to walk away. So typically what I recommend is I would, exactly what you did
• 16:01
  Victoria. So it would be like, hey, Suzanne, like I just wanted to talk about my compensation.
• 16:07
  As you know, here's what I've achieved, A, B and C. As you know, I'm a superstar because of
• 16:11
  X, Y and Z. Love to talk to you about my compensation. And also just want to level set and ensure
• 16:18
  that my comp is commensurate with everyone else at my level. It's kind of a way of saying, hey,
• 16:23
  if you pay me and don't even think about like not keeping me at the same level as all of the fellas,
• 16:29
  without saying there's a gender pay gap, you're the worst. Like I'm going to go legal on you if you
• 16:34
  don't pay me enough. I'm not saying that you can't do that. But what I'm saying is like I'm trying
• 16:39
  I want all the listens to know that there's what there's unfortunately, there's a consequence,
• 16:43
  right? And for women, there's something called the backlash effect. So we actually have to,
• 16:48
  unfortunately, dance around these conversations a little to make sure that we minimize the negative
• 16:53
  consequences that may or may not come back to bite us. And so we've got to sort of take a holistic
• 16:57
  approach because there's office politics as we all know. And the more senior you get in your
• 17:02
  career, the more significant those politics are that are at play. And so these conversations are
• 17:07
  all a reflection of you. And so it depends on the size of the company. You know, if you're working
• 17:13
  for a huge organization that's got hundreds of thousands of employees, it's a different,
• 17:18
  it's a different story to if you're working somewhere where there's 10 people. So all of these
• 17:22
  pieces of the puzzle, I suppose, are part of the context that I would take into account when I'm
• 17:27
  coaching people through these situations. So it's kind of, I wish it was a black or white. And
• 17:31
  listen, legally, you're probably well within your rights to put the piece of paper on the table and
• 17:36
  say, let's have a conversation about this. And for some of the listeners that may be their style,
• 17:40
  you know, typically before you get a lawyer, they will, they will ask you to say, well, did you,
• 17:45
  did you ask the question? You know, because there's no, you don't have to spend money on a lawyer
• 17:49
  if you haven't asked the question first. You want to have the conversation, okay? So the question
• 17:53
  to say, I just want to make sure that my comp is commensurate with everyone else, you know,
• 17:57
  on the team who's at my level. If they say you said it is, and it's not, then they're effectively
• 18:04
  lying. And there can be found out. Is that kind of, yeah. So long as you know that the data that
• 18:09
  you've been given is up to date and factual and is it exclusive or inclusive of bonus is that,
• 18:15
  you know, so for example, one of my clients, she lives in Nevada, and she is not paid as much as
• 18:21
  people who live in New York City. But there's a cost of living imbalance, so that comes into it.
• 18:26
  You know, so as long as you know that the data is good, that the source is good, et cetera,
• 18:30
  then absolutely you can, you can go back and say this, tell me more about how you came up with
• 18:35
  this benchmarking. You mentioned that it is commensurate with everyone else. I'd love to understand
• 18:39
  that better. It's just having a bit of confidence. Yeah, it's just knowing the questions to ask,
• 18:44
  because I think that's the problem a lot of us have never, or don't know where to go to be like,
• 18:50
  hey, question, how do I deal with the situation? So it's amazing to have platforms like Pepp talk
• 18:57
  and people like you who are so open and willing to share your knowledge and advice and experience
• 19:02
  in this space, because I think if all of us knew that, we would have all had this conversation
• 19:07
  10 years ago, in every single job I would have mentioned that. I think there's also a stigma
• 19:12
  of, you know, if men had this conversation, their portrayed as confident, ambitious, you know,
• 19:19
  driven, when women have this conversation, it's greedy, it's totally a bit ungrateful,
• 19:26
  and that's the, I think that's the frustrating thing is that, yeah, just the judgment that comes
• 19:31
  from having these conversations isn't even the same. And that's what the research tells us,
• 19:35
  you know, like men, yeah, I know, like men, so it's interesting. So men and women in leadership
• 19:41
  treat women differently when we, when we ask questions like this. And so again, like, you know,
• 19:47
  I know the business. Yeah, which is quite sad. It is sad, and it's also, you know,
• 19:53
  it's unconscious bias, a lot of it. You know, I don't believe that most bosses are bad people.
• 19:58
  I think that most bosses are products of their upbringing, their products of society.
• 20:03
  And society tells girls from a very young age that they're different to boys. And, you know,
• 20:07
  even from a gender pay gap perspective, little girls get paid less pocket money or allowance,
• 20:14
  whatever term you use in your country, they get paid less for doing chores around the house
• 20:18
  than little boys. And there's been three studies in three countries that has proven that.
• 20:23
  And so from a super young age, we're told that we're different than we're not worth as much.
• 20:27
  And our bosses are told that too. And so we take those biases and those experiences and those
• 20:31
  stories. And of course, we act them out, right? When we're professionals, because it's what we've
• 20:36
  seen, it's what we've been told is normal. It's what our parents did. Our parents aren't assholes.
• 20:40
  They didn't know. They just were told when they were little that mowing the lawn is a harder job
• 20:46
  than, you know, setting the table or whatever. And if stereotypically your brother is doing one job
• 20:50
  and you're doing another job, then that pay from a young age looks different. And so, you know,
• 20:55
  add into that marketing, advertising, misogyny, all the rest of it. You can, I'm not excusing it,
• 21:01
  but we can sort of come to understand why there is this disconnect and why it's literally
• 21:06
  to the United Nations data going to take us hundreds of years to change it.
• 21:11
  But the good news is, is that like, there is change that is happening slowly but surely we're
• 21:17
  inching forward. And there is stuff that you can do, you know, everyone listening today can pay
• 21:22
  it forward. You can share this episode with someone. You can share your salary with your best mate
• 21:27
  or with your mentee or you can proactively reach out to a sponsor or someone's senior in the
• 21:33
  organisation and say, hey, can we grab a coffee? Like, there's something that you can do today that
• 21:37
  is practical and tangible and that is going to change your career. And that's my hope that you'll
• 21:41
  pay that forward when you're a leader. And so collectively, you know, these small changes that we make
• 21:46
  will add up. We need the government's help. We need business help, 100%, but like, there is
• 21:51
  stuff that we can do because sometimes you feel helpless, right? But you're not. And also,
• 21:55
  you can take power back. Like, I think, you know, so if you were mentioning earlier, like,
• 21:59
  we don't know to have these conversations. And often it's because we're told, like, the employer
• 22:04
  has all the power. They are like the gods and we should bow down. And that's true. Like, they're
• 22:08
  important and they do have power, but also you have power. If you were shit at your job, they would
• 22:15
  fire you. If you weren't contributing, they would sack you. So if you're listening and if you've
• 22:20
  got a job and I'm going to guess we've got a hell of a lot of type A high performers listening,
• 22:24
  you are excellent, right? And you're contributing and you're helping that company make money or
• 22:29
  make an impact or you're helping those students learn whatever you work in, you are adding value
• 22:34
  and contributing. And that value deserves to be compensated, right? So don't let the boss have all the
• 22:39
  men. Amen. Yeah. Inspiring. I'm just like, like, pay it forward and love that. It's such a good
• 22:45
  like, it's so true. Sharing knowledge. It's just like, knowledge is power and I think you think
• 22:50
  you wanted, yeah, like, fun for it. I'm intrigued to know what the, you kind of mentioned a few things,
• 22:56
  but what would be the single biggest thing in your opinion that would help us accelerate and close
• 23:03
  the gender pay gap? Well, you know, the research tells us that one of the best things to happen is
• 23:07
  pay transparency, right? So there's a couple of organizations actually, a couple of companies in
• 23:12
  America that openly share salary data of everyone, like publicly, like there's one called buffer.
• 23:19
  If you just search buffer salary transparency, it'll come up. You can look at what everyone in the
• 23:23
  org earns, like the CEO, the admin, the marketing people, everyone. In New York state, in the United
• 23:29
  States, it's now when you advertise a job, you have to advertise the salary range. So for example,
• 23:37
  one of my clients sent me a job at Google the other day and the salary range was like 284 to
• 23:41
  364. Admittedly, it's a big range, but it's better than, you know, six months ago when we didn't
• 23:47
  even know it could have been 160, it could have been 400, who knows? Whereas now they actually
• 23:52
  are mandated by law that they have to include the salary range. So that's helpful. It's a, you know,
• 23:59
  people who are looking for a job a lot of time and it also allows people to have an understanding of,
• 24:02
  wow, this is actually my worth in the market. That's interesting. Women from lower socioeconomic
• 24:07
  backgrounds, women from groups that are typically marginalized don't necessarily have that access.
• 24:12
  You know, so it's not fair because they might be doing the same job and have the same level
• 24:16
  expertise, but because they don't know how to negotiate or anchor numbers in conversations,
• 24:21
  then they're being, you know, penalized for that. So we'll start to see more pay transparency
• 24:26
  legislation come in around the world in the West for sure. And that, that honestly makes an
• 24:31
  enormous difference. Yeah, we actually created a anonymous salary spreadsheet to do. Yes, I'm
• 24:38
  familiar. Yeah. And it was so eye-opening. Like, I even said to self, I was like, I'm nervous to
• 24:46
  put my salary in because I don't want the judgment or, you know, any, any, and I was like,
• 24:52
  but for me to put it in was just like, what have I got to lose? And if I'm, like you said,
• 24:57
  if I'm paying it forward and I'm helping everyone else to realize what they should be paying,
• 25:02
  what they're, what they're worth is for what they could earn one day. Yeah. And a certain role,
• 25:06
  you know, I think like there's also a bit of a problem in that a lot of people, as you say,
• 25:10
  marginalized communities or people who might have education around what trajectories specific
• 25:15
  careers take and what that means from a renumeration point of view. It's like the more that people
• 25:20
  can say, oh, if you work in finance, you can earn 400,000 a year. And people would be like, oh,
• 25:25
  shit, I had no idea. Maybe I want to study finance. Yeah. But one thing I wanted to come back to
• 25:31
  was around something you mentioned about, you know, you had you had savings, you had, you know,
• 25:37
  to be able to afford a lawyer to go down that track when you did. And I think that kind of comes
• 25:41
  back to a discussion that we have always had is how, you know, money brings you that that freedom
• 25:48
  and having the likes of like an emergency fund and having, you know, invest in your money and
• 25:53
  growing your wealth. So then you can, you know, have these conversations and know that you've got
• 25:59
  that to fall back on if you needed to, you know, like, I guess it's kind of it all, it's all
• 26:03
  interlinked. It's like, yes, unfortunately, you're paid less. So therefore we have a harder time,
• 26:07
  you know, saving your now retirement funds and growing our wealth. But there's also like a reason
• 26:12
  why we say, invest, have an emergency fund and all those things. It's almost like a safety net.
• 26:16
  So that if these things do happen, you can totally not be as, I guess, hamstrung.
• 26:23
  Yeah. What? What you decide to do really? Yeah.
• 26:26
  Oh, 100%. And listen, like I compared to most of the world, I would probably all the three of us,
• 26:33
  right? If you look at global wealth, like global wealth, we are probably, and probably honestly,
• 26:39
  everyone listening is probably in the top five to 10% of wealthy people in the world. Because if you
• 26:45
  actually look at the numbers, you don't have to be earning much or have much saved to be in the top
• 26:50
  five percent. And it's actually not very hard to be in the top one percent either. You'd be surprised,
• 26:55
  you'd be very, very surprised. It's not even, it's not even seven figures to be in the top five
• 27:00
  percent of the world. So, you know, there's a lot of privilege that comes with that. But to your
• 27:05
  point, we try to like, I, and I want to be wealthy, I want to be extremely wealthy because I believe
• 27:11
  that I'm going to pay that forward and do amazing stuff with that wealth. You know, I already am an
• 27:14
  angel investor. I am an advisor. I sit on boards and stuff like that, and I love it. And that's,
• 27:20
  you know, a way that I can give back. But the other thing is, like, I didn't used to want to be wealthy.
• 27:25
  I just wanted to make an impact in the world. And for me, at that point, saving and investing was
• 27:30
  really about choice. It was like, well, it was kind of, you know, that whole, like, have an FU fund
• 27:35
  so that if you have a toxic boss, if you have a toxic partner, if you're just like, I'm so done
• 27:41
  with Sydney, or I'm so done with London, I need to move. You can do that. I love the FU fund.
• 27:47
  Way better than emergency funds. Yeah. Because, you know, and it gives you so much choice, you know,
• 27:54
  and one of the things that makes you so upset is in Australia, the fastest growing group of
• 27:57
  homelessness as a population is women over the age of 55. And it's because of divorce, right? And
• 28:05
  what happens in divorce is you split assets. And sometimes there are assets that are not above
• 28:11
  boards. So sometimes there are assets that don't get split because, you know, one of the parties may
• 28:15
  not know about the other asset. And so you're having these women that are retiring basically into
• 28:19
  poverty. And I don't want that for anyone, but I especially don't want that for anyone listening.
• 28:24
  You know, so, and to your point, it gave me choice at that moment in my career. When sometimes you
• 28:30
  reach, you know, like a fork in the road in your career, and you're like, I hate my boss, or I hate
• 28:34
  my team, or I hate the way they're treating me, I'm going to leave. When you've got that FU fund,
• 28:40
  you can do that. When you've got a great network, they will help you find another role. You know,
• 28:45
  it gives you choice. And to me, that's what wealth and money does. It's choice. It's choice to work.
• 28:50
  Maybe I want to take six months off and go camping with my family. Maybe I want to buy my mama
• 28:56
  car. Maybe I want to just like treat all my girlfriends to an epic long weekend away, because I
• 29:01
  can. You know, and money and wealth gives you that choice. And that's what excites me about, you
• 29:07
  know, investing and saving. And that's why I love what you're doing on the podcast too.
• 29:11
  We've got women all over the world that listen to us. It's quite wild, isn't it? Sorry.
• 29:16
  I love that you say we've got as well. Let's say we own them. I know. I know.
• 29:21
  And even it is very cool when you look at the podcast analytics, and you see, there's like a big
• 29:25
  like a map here, and it like shades in the countries of people that listen, which is pretty amazing.
• 29:31
  And you're like, wow, someone in Iceland, someone in Albania. It's quite cool. When we thought,
• 29:36
  how do we get all these women together in one place to talk about investing? And so we started
• 29:43
  an investing club. It's kind of like a book club, but you talk about investments. Yeah, which is
• 29:47
  cool because a lot of guys have this with their guy mates, you know, like they'll have their
• 29:51
  their WhatsApp chat or they put $100 in a month and they actually met some of the other day who
• 29:56
  was talking about his investment club with his friends and they invest in all sorts of things,
• 30:00
  like from vintage wine to specific companies. But we just don't seem to do it. And also I think it's
• 30:05
  maybe because a lot of us don't feel super confident, but because the club is kind of run by that,
• 30:12
  you have your expert overlay, which makes it so much better. And just seeing all women from
• 30:19
  all parts of the world, bringing in different investing ideas, introducing themselves and
• 30:23
  being like, this is in my portfolio, you're like, oh, we've got moms, we've got students, we've
• 30:28
  got business owners, we've got so many incredible women. We've got people that are new to invest,
• 30:33
  we've got people that are investing for ages and seeing everyone talking and sharing ideas of
• 30:39
  what they're invested in and what changes they want to make. It's just like so incredible to say.
• 30:45
  It is. Yes, we're very proud of the club. There's so many cool people in there. If you would like
• 30:49
  to join, we will put a link in our podcast show notes for you. See you there.
• 30:55
  Can I ask a question just before you said, you know, I never used to want to be wealthy, like,
• 31:00
  or you didn't invest for that reason. When did you accept and own that new narrative of, you know,
• 31:08
  actually, I do want to be wealthy and I'm going to claim that because I think it's something that
• 31:12
  I'm struggling with at the moment. And I'd love to hear your journey with that. I think it's a
• 31:18
  process because, you know, I was a journalist and typically I remember dad saying, you show you
• 31:22
  want to do journalism, you know, there's not a lot of money in it and I was like, if you love
• 31:25
  your work, dad, the money will come. And, you know, I do still believe that actually in the long run,
• 31:32
  but and I did love journalism. And listen, I was paid well at the end of my journalism career.
• 31:37
  I was earning well into the six figures. So like, I can't complain too much. But, you know, I
• 31:44
  don't know. When did I, I think it was a process I had a side hustle when I was a journalist.
• 31:49
  And then when I quit journalism and eventually went full time on my side hustle and started building
• 31:53
  pep talker, I came across in a co-working space, a group of women who was sort of similar age to
• 32:00
  me like mid to late 20s. Also had their own thing going on. Like, we're really grinding away.
• 32:06
  We were all grinding away back then. And they had big dreams, bigger dreams than I did. And they
• 32:11
  were earning lots more money than I was. Some of them were earning seven figures. Some of them were
• 32:15
  earning six figures. My, you know, we were on here earning like, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 grand
• 32:19
  or something in the first few years of business. So it wasn't crushing it at that point. So they really,
• 32:25
  in a lot of ways showed me that example. And they had designer clothes and they went on bananas,
• 32:30
  holidays and they flew business class and all this kind of stuff. And they did really great work
• 32:35
  as well. They paid it forward and they supported other bananas. Well, when I say bananas,
• 32:42
  I just mean like epic. Wow, that sounds fun. But what is that? A banana holiday or you do
• 32:48
  is eat bananas and drink banana. Yeah, problem at the moment. No, it's my turn of phrase.
• 32:57
  Because I have this weird like I use like obviously Aussie slang and then I have some weird like
• 33:01
  American lingo. So that's probably my turn of phrase. You did say bananas. I just wasn't raised that way.
• 33:15
  Like I was raised on a farm and you know, like we're quite frugal and you just always had to plan
• 33:19
  for, you know, you just never know like save for a rainy day. And so I never really like would
• 33:23
  treat myself on that sort of stuff. I just didn't think that was a good use of money. And I honestly,
• 33:28
  like I'm not a super flashy person anyway. I prefer to invest and that's like I have a bit of a
• 33:32
  long term view on it. But it was interesting. They taught me a lot and they taught me that it was okay
• 33:38
  to want to have a successful business and also feel like your life is making a difference. You
• 33:42
  could do both. You know, and so honestly, it was the example of others. So if anyone listening,
• 33:47
  like if you kind of feel like your money mindset's not where you want it to be, like keep listening
• 33:51
  to podcasts like this, like find women in your friendship circle who want to start investing
• 33:56
  together, like just find a community. It's all about community and those because they'll be people
• 33:59
  ahead of you who you can look up to and people behind you who you can support along the way too.
• 34:04
  That's my, it sounds really corny and boring. But like if you were to say three or five key tips
• 34:09
  when it comes to negotiating, whether it be actually asking for a salary or anything really,
• 34:15
  do you have some go-tos? And then also flying off from that. What tips would you give someone
• 34:21
  if your boss says no, see you later? Yeah. So they kind of related, right? So and you know,
• 34:27
  it's funny. I had one of my best friends message me the other day. She texted me. She was like,
• 34:32
  hey, I'm asking, I'm asking for a pay rise. What should I do? And I was like, okay, well,
• 34:38
  when are you asking for the pay rise? I said, no, I said, I was like, do you have the app?
• 34:43
  Go to peptalker.com forward slash pay me more, which is a free cheat sheet that anyone
• 34:47
  listening can download as well. And then I said, I think I sent her another blog post,
• 34:51
  she was like, okay, yeah, good girl. And then I said, no, I sent her. We also have like a one-hour
• 34:55
  crash course that kind of is just like, OMG, my conversations in the morning, shit, help.
• 35:00
  Like that's peptalker.com forward slash SOS if you need that. So I sent her that. She was like,
• 35:06
  cool, cool, cool. And I was like, so anyway, when is it? And she said, God's in the morning. And
• 35:10
  this was like 8 PM at night. And I was like, girl, I was like, you need to delay that meeting.
• 35:14
  Like, no, like, sorry, it's not enough. Like, sometimes you can't control the meeting because you
• 35:20
  might be going for a new role and the recruiter calls you out of the blue. But like, I said you
• 35:23
  was like, delay the meeting because the first tip from a preparation perspective. And frankly,
• 35:29
  even if they say no, the first tip is about preparation. And I know it's not sexy and it's not like
• 35:34
  a quick fix, but it's important. And if you are only asking for like an extra 500 bucks a year,
• 35:39
  go your hardest. You'll be fine. You know, if you're looking for a thousand bucks a year,
• 35:42
  I'm sure you'll be fine. You're very smart people listening. You don't need my help. But if you're
• 35:46
  looking for like 5 grand, 10 grand, 30 K more, like we had one of my students got 20 K yesterday,
• 35:54
  we've had three students that have got six figure pay increases, increases. If that's what you want,
• 36:00
  then you can't you can't get that in 30 minutes. You know, like you just can't like you have to
• 36:06
  put in the time to prepare. So if you want a big bump and if you're taking this seriously in terms
• 36:10
  of your salary and what you can invest as a result of that, you have to take the preparation seriously.
• 36:15
  And I know that's like probably not what a lot of people want to hear, but it's the truth. You know,
• 36:19
  like you and negotiators don't walk into peacekeeping conversations with like five minutes prep,
• 36:24
  hoping to change the world. Like they don't. They study it for years. They read the news. They read
• 36:28
  the books. They talk to people off the record. They have all their information. And the reason
• 36:33
  that you need to do the same when it comes to salary is it's not just, oh yeah, I googled the job
• 36:37
  description. I'm all good. Like I talk about it in terms of like an iceberg, like the tip of the
• 36:42
  iceberg. Everyone here is doing that anyway. You're smart. You're doing it. But you actually have to
• 36:46
  go like beneath the surface. Like what's going on below the surface of the iceberg, right? So it's
• 36:50
  like who can you interview or like off the record talk to at the company? Like what are the websites
• 36:56
  and salary data points can you pull from? How many mock negotiation conversations can you do with
• 37:01
  your partner, your best friend, your aunt, your uncle, whatever your cousin? Like this is some of
• 37:07
  the steps that go into that preparation. You need to be very, very clear on what you're looking for.
• 37:12
  And you need to be tracking your successes. And one of the reasons why we built the pep talk her app
• 37:17
  is for that reason. Like again, you can't just walk into the conversation and be like, hello,
• 37:22
  I'm Maggie, I'm excellent. Please can I have 20,000 more a year?
• 37:25
  Or remembering what you've done for the past 12 months or whatever. So that's why that app is so good
• 37:31
  because it's like, as it happens, you can know it down to them. When you do come for those
• 37:36
  those negotiations and those meetings, you're like, right, I've got this, this, this, this,
• 37:39
  this, oh, that thing that I forgot about it. It's funny you asked because I've actually been
• 37:43
  tracking this shit for the last 12 months. Truly, you know, and that's where I like, listen,
• 37:48
  I know. And sometimes it's like, oh my god, it's performance review time next week. What do I do?
• 37:51
  I'd get it. It happens. And I like, I've been there as well. And so the best time to start
• 37:55
  tracking was 12 months ago. But the next best time is today, right? So you can download the app,
• 38:00
  it's totally free on all of the app stores. And basically, it's like a fit bit, but it's for your
• 38:05
  career, right? So instead of tracking your steps, it's tracking your wins at work. So, you know,
• 38:09
  you could be like, maybe I would put in the app, you know, recorded an app of the curve with
• 38:14
  Sophie and Vic. It was epic or maybe I would put in closed UBS bank as a new client or expanded
• 38:21
  our partnership with Salesforce or whatever. Like those are some of the things that I track in the app
• 38:25
  because like, I don't even know what I had for dinner on Friday, let alone what I did in June
• 38:31
  or in October or in April. I couldn't tell you because there's a lot of shit going on in my life.
• 38:36
  And it's the same for everyone listening, like you're busy people, you're smart people, you've got
• 38:39
  friends, you've got Netflix to watch. There's a lot happening, you know? So if you're not tracking
• 38:44
  those wins at work consecutively throughout the year, it's really hard. So even if you just put in one
• 38:49
  thing a month, that's it. That's 12 things that you can then take in as data points to a promotion
• 38:55
  conversation or a salary increase or add to your LinkedIn, add to your resume so that in two years
• 39:01
  time, when you're applying for a new job, you're not thinking holy shit, what did I do last
• 39:05
  figure? What did I do? Like, because you don't know. So you want to be tracking metrics. So like,
• 39:10
  20% increase in sales or I onboarded three interns or I organized the holiday party or
• 39:16
  you know, I put in place a new automation which saved 60 hours a year for the team, whatever.
• 39:21
  Like, you just got to figure out what does success look like for you? How are you adding value to the
• 39:26
  company, dollars, cents, culture, team, whatever and write it down? Because that's going to help you
• 39:33
  going forward. So that's a long wind of wear saying like preparation.
• 39:37
  And amazing. And then preparedness must give you confidence as well going into that knowing you've
• 39:43
  done your homework. Yeah. Well, you know, and it's they're super normal reactions, right? Like,
• 39:48
  some people love it. Some people will super happy to wander in there and have the chat no worries.
• 39:51
  Some people feel sick. Some people go red and blush. Some people want to cry. Some people's
• 39:56
  shfits and sweats. I definitely get heat rash. But it's injured but so bad. This is so this is
• 40:01
  like I didn't even plan this, but this is a really good example because we often have visual
• 40:05
  reactions. This is what, you know, people in our community tell me all the time like I feel sick.
• 40:10
  I want to vomit. I get a rash on my face. All people just get fully anxious and like
• 40:15
  full freaked out about it. And that's super normal. But what I want to tell everyone who's who's
• 40:19
  listening today is that actually if we jump into the dictionary and have a look at the definition
• 40:24
  of negotiation, it's just a conversation. And negotiation is a conversation between two parties
• 40:31
  hoping to find an agreement. That's it. It's just a chat. And so for a lot of us, I think it's like
• 40:37
  because I, my recollection of negotiating my earliest memory is like as a teenager,
• 40:42
  fighting with my dad to become ungrounded to go to all the cool parties because I was always
• 40:46
  grounded. Oh my gosh. I was so naughty. So like, getting a later curfew.
• 40:50
  Like, please, but I have a sneak tweak here and I'll come home early if you give me an extra
• 40:53
  hour today. Mine was trying, I wasn't allowed to get my ears pierced and like I was literally
• 40:59
  14. I had to make sure I was 18 and then I went 30. I got my memory off. Yeah. I'll show you.
• 41:07
  Let's see, even the phrasing, you said, you know, I was, it was my negotiation was kicking and
• 41:11
  screaming. And my mind was literally screaming. It was like, like, fighting with my dad big time,
• 41:16
  like screaming, arguing. And so I thought that negotiation was a fight. I thought it was basically
• 41:21
  like, let's blow this shit up. Like it's a war zone. It's like super combative. You know,
• 41:26
  and that's what I honestly, that's what I took into my career early on because I thought
• 41:29
  that's what it was because that's what I've been role model. But so what I want to tell you
• 41:33
  to everyone is that you can actually shift that, right? You can change that sort of framing and
• 41:37
  that wiring about your perception of negotiating. And you might think, oh, I'm a bad negotiator.
• 41:43
  Maybe your partner negotiated for your car purchase or your did all the negotiating with a real
• 41:49
  to for your house purchase. So maybe you think, oh, yeah, it's because I'm a bad negotiator.
• 41:52
  Like you're probably not. I'm pretty sure you've got friends or family who you talk to,
• 41:57
  who you have a chat with. And if you can have a chat, you can have a negotiation. That's it.
• 42:01
  So that's why I say that preparation phase. It's not sexy and it's not exciting. But it's very,
• 42:06
  very important because you've got to practice those chats, those negotiations ahead of time.
• 42:13
  So that when it's the real deal, you're like, I got this. Let's go. Like I'm feeling good. I'm
• 42:18
  feeling confident. I've practiced. I know the phrasing. I know when to be silent. I know how to
• 42:23
  ask questions and say, that's a really interesting figure. Tell me more about how you arrived at that
• 42:28
  number. Oh, can you imagine being a boss that had never, you know, encountered a MIGI trained
• 42:35
  all of a sudden just be like, oh, oh, get out of the get out of the meeting room.
• 42:42
  But it's all about, you know, it's a conversation. And to your the other question, you know,
• 42:46
  be told about like, what if they say no, it's a conversation, right? And, and, you know, we think
• 42:50
  that, oh, my gosh, negotiations, they're so nebulous. I don't even know what's going to happen.
• 42:54
  You 100% do know. You're either going to be told, yes, you're going to be told, no, or you're
• 43:00
  going to be told, maybe like, that's it. Those are the only options. Like, that is it. And so you
• 43:06
  can prepare ahead of time. You can be like, if they say, yes, I'm going to say this. If they say
• 43:10
  no, like, you can practice it verbatim. You can write it out. You can, you know, create scripts.
• 43:16
  You can download the scripts that we've got. I'm pretty sure the cheat sheet, it does, yeah,
• 43:19
  pep talker.com forward slash pay me more. That has scripts in it that you can use. So like,
• 43:24
  practice it because it'll become second nature. You know, and I always say to people, it's like,
• 43:28
  if I wanted massive biceps, I would go to the gym. And like, in two days, nothing would happen,
• 43:33
  and I would be annoyed. And in two weeks, nothing would happen. And I would still be annoyed.
• 43:36
  But in two months, I would be like a little bit toned. Nice, nice. And in two years,
• 43:41
  my biceps would be massive, right? That would be huge because I'd been doing it so often.
• 43:45
  And it's kind of the same thing when we're trying to exercise our brain around, negotiating,
• 43:50
  and around these conversations, around the phrasing. It's just practice, you know, it's like
• 43:55
  a bicep. Be a bicep. Then a bicep. Negotiate with your biceps. Your brain bicep, you know.
• 44:03
  We should call it the brain bicep. The negotiation brain bicep. I love what you've done there,
• 44:07
  that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I took away from, from Pepp talk her a while back that I saw
• 44:16
  was, and it's actually, I had a friend come and we were having, we're having coffee and she
• 44:20
  has asked for a pay rise and they keep saying, we don't have it in the budget. We don't have it
• 44:24
  in the budget. Sorry, sorry. Yeah. And it was something alone from people who was around,
• 44:29
  it doesn't have to be a monetary increase in salary, you know, you can ask for like, okay,
• 44:34
  cool, well, can I get an extra couple of weeks leave then in my contract or can I get my gym
• 44:40
  membership paid for or, you know, there's, there's, there's non-monitry benefits, which I thought
• 44:45
  was a really, really interesting way that if the company says, no, we don't have enough money
• 44:49
  because that's kind of like a shot the door in your face. Stop asking. Yeah. That there is other
• 44:55
  ways around that as well, which I thought was really, really helpful. 100%. And this is where it
• 45:01
  comes back to, and negotiation is a conversation. We, we could honestly talk to you for, for hours.
• 45:06
  Thank you so much for all of your tips and tricks. Yeah. Holy hell, I think they're going to be so
• 45:13
  helpful. We're going to be negotiating for each other, more salaries and then we like, I'll be like,
• 45:19
  no, there's not enough in the budget. No, I think it's, it's without an anonymous salary spreadsheet,
• 45:27
  like a lot of people look at it still where it's on the notifications about it and messages,
• 45:32
  but I think to have practical tips and, and to be able to go to your website and, and download
• 45:38
  the app and all of the amazing resources that you've created, I think we'll just be kind of like
• 45:43
  that next step for people. So thank you so much for sharing it all. Yeah, no, I'm here to help.
• 45:48
  This is the, this is the whole purpose of pet talker. And yeah, if it holds one person listening,
• 45:51
  that's, that's my day made. I'm stoked. I'm stoked. Thank you so much for listening to Raising the
• 45:56
  Curve. These conversations are designed to teach you everything you need to know to be better with
• 46:00
  your money, saving, to investing, to talking with your friends about your salaries or that stuff.
• 46:04
  And if you like what you've heard, we would love if you could please hit subscribe,
• 46:07
  wherever you're listening and leave a comment. Let us know what you thought about the episode.
• 46:11
  And it only takes one second and it would really make our week a month, their year.
• 46:16
  Yeah, yeah. So please do it. Okay, love you. Bye.
• 46:20
  Okay, quickly, the curve was created to empower and educate you about investing, but we are not
• 46:24
  financial advisors. Our platform exists for educational purposes only and it doesn't provide
• 46:29
  personalized investing advice for your individual needs and should not be relied upon to make
• 46:33
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• 46:38
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• 46:42
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• 46:45
  You got this. Yeah, we know you got this.