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Everyday Animism: Did Jung speak to his pots and pans? · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: So we wanted to bring you a special episode today
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: because there's been a lot of really important recent Jung scholarship.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: You know, there's, I mean, the Philmon Foundation has been
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: bringing unpublished works to light. We've now heard this really
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: exciting news about the critical edition that's being published. It's
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: really so great. And I was fortunate enough, or we
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: were fortunate enough actually recently to to speak with one
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: of Jung's biographers. And there's some really interesting stuff that's
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: coming to light that we did not know before about him.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: So I want to share, first of all, this is
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: from an older biography, but apparently when Jung was at Bollingen,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: which was his tower that he built on the lake,
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: he would wake up at seven and then he would
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: say good morning to his saucepans, pots, and frying pans.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: So apparently he would actually talk to these items as
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: if they were unsold. It's come to light actually, interestingly,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: that Marie Kondo, the Japanese maven of tidying, may have
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: really kind of been very inspired by Jung because she also,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: if you recall, recommends talking to objects. So we wanted
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: to explore today this notion of animism, and what we're
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: learning about Jung and his relationship with the material and
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: the physical world.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: I had not heard that Kondo had a relationship with
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Jung's material, although it doesn't surprise me at all. Because
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: her whole process of having a relationship, or at least
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: admitting that you have a relationship to the objects that
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: you collect, and that it's deep and soulful and psychological,
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: is absolutely... Of course, it has something to do with
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: typology as well. I was thinking also about Jung's, the
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: way he rested into animism, which for those who may
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: be new to the term is the feeling that there
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: is a living quality to all objects, a kind of
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: universal soul that he extended, of course, into his kitchen
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  Speaker 3: objects and appliances, and that He had very specific relationships
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: to the various objects in the kitchen. And what it
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: often reminds me of is in Beauty and the Beast,
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  Speaker 3: where all of the objects in the cartoon begin to
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: sing and speak. And they have personalities in the way
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: that children experience objects in very similar ways.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: It ties in with so much of Jung's theory here.
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: work around the collective unconscious, synchronicity, that there's a substrate
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: that connects all of us and the world, the world soul,
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: the world tree, you know, all kinds of traditions believe
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: that things are ensouled and that we are a part
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: of something greater all the time. And I mean, I imagine,
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: lest people take this too terribly literally, Jung didn't believe
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: that the pots and pans were literally alive, but that
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  Speaker 4: there was a quality of relational connection and a separateness
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: and soul quality to his world.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: Even mundane things, right?
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. And what's coming forward in this new scholarship is
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: that Jung, this is not well known, but it's coming
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: to light, that he had a substantial collection of beer
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: steins and that each one of these had a name
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: and that he had lengthy conversations with them daily. He
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: kept them in a cabinet in his consulting room and
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: would consult with them after the patient left. So it
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: was kind of like an active imagination with the Biersteins.
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  Speaker 4: And a lot of those Biersteins, for listeners who are
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: maybe not familiar with them, but are beautifully wrought with
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: all kinds of, you know, the ceramics are raised and
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: there are faces on them. They have real personalities. So
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  Speaker 4: it's a wonderful choice. for projecting, interacting, active imagining, dialoguing,
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: that Jung could readily avail himself of.
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  Speaker 2: Well, also, at the time that Jung was alive, it
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  Speaker 2: was very common to get a souvenir beer stein from, say,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: a certain town that you traveled to. So, you know,
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  Speaker 2: he would, when he was in London lecturing, he got him,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: you know, a souvenir beer stein from a pub in London.
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  Speaker 2: You know, when he was in Ravenna, there's a Bierstein
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: from Ravenna. And, of course, there's one from Vienna when
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: he was there, you know, visiting Freud. Yeah. You know,
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  Speaker 2: those kind of souvenir Biersteins, they feature, like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: there's a Big Ben image on the London Bierstein and,
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  Speaker 2: you know, that kind of thing. They're a little kitschy, but....
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  Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that I was... Reflecting on
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: when you were talking about the beer steins, there's a
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  Speaker 3: story about one particular beer stein that Jung would keep
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: in his table. And sometimes later in life, his nurse
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  Speaker 3: used to have to wrestle out of his hands because
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: he was so attached to it. And it was one
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  Speaker 3: of the steins that had a bear on it and
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: a kind of legendary bear figure. I'm trying to bring
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: back the nickname that he had for the bear. but
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  Speaker 3: the nurse would come in and see him cuddling it
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: and talking to it. She would lean into the door
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: and listen carefully at what he was whispering to the berestine,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: but clearly it had something to do with that later
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: work that he was developing in alchemy. It had something
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: to do with the integration of his own instinctive nature
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: and that he seemed to be speaking in very loving ways.
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  Speaker 3: And I think in one of the stories, speaking to
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: the Berestein as if it was a lover in and
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: of itself.
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: Well, that builds on what he had done in his
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: earlier years at Bolingen, that Lisa, you and I could
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: see where he had carved a bear into the stone
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: on the side of the house. So clearly, you know,
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  Speaker 4: bears are mythological creatures. in so many ways and have
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  Speaker 4: such depth and primal power that that stein and the
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: symbol of the bear, as Jung had reached a stage
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  Speaker 4: where he was very aged, he was sinking into a
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: mythological realm that was ensouled and animated as bears had
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: been for him throughout his life.
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  Speaker 3: The name, I believe, for the inner figure was called Angela.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not pronouncing it right. I'm sure there's some German
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  Speaker 3: version of it.
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: Angela.
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: Angela.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you very much. But Angela the Beerstein was something
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  Speaker 3: that became a significant figure towards the end of his life.
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  Speaker 3: There are no accounts that he was, in fact, dreaming
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  Speaker 3: of this. But really, in about the last five years
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: of his life, he would not be parted from the Beerstein.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: He insisted that every beverage that he was served, in essence,
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: be served by Angela, that it was such an intimate relationship.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: That's so touching.
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: It is.
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  Speaker 2: It's very moving. It really is. was important to him
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: throughout his lifespan, because, you know, he started the collection
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: as a young man, and it really was meaningful to
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: him throughout his life. And I think it's so interesting
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: that it's not mentioned anywhere in Memories, Dreams, Reflections. And,
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: you know, they're looking at the protocols now, the original
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: protocols for Memories, Dreams, Reflections, which is just more fascinating
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: young scholarship. It's such a great time to be in
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: this world because there's so much exciting stuff happening. But
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: what they speculate is that his attachment to his Bierstein
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  Speaker 2: collection was too tender to be put in his autobiography.
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: Too intimate.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: And there are some things that have to be kept
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  Speaker 3: just for oneself.
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: You know, what I'm thinking about is how some of
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: this information, like so much of the material that later
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: became the published, version of the Red Book, of all
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: places is found in the basement of the Yale University Library.
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  Speaker 4: Is that amazing? You know, I wonder how on earth
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  Speaker 4: did it get from Switzerland, you know, all the way
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  Speaker 4: across the Atlantic, and then wind up in what I
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: imagine are these caverns of archaeological information.
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  Speaker 2: Are the beer steins themselves at Yale, do you know?
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  Speaker 2: Or is it just more of the, you know, kind
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  Speaker 2: of like written material?
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  Speaker 4: It's written material, and I imagine, you know, that the
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  Speaker 4: Jung family has carefully sequestered these steins. But I also
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  Speaker 4: just want to lift up that it's so in keeping
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  Speaker 4: with Jung's bedrock theory about how we have to personify images.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
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  Speaker 4: That the archetypes are kind of up here in a
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: vague way and we bring them down to an image
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  Speaker 4: we can see and relate to so that we can
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  Speaker 4: explore our own inner selves in relation to this image.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and of course, if you think about the shape
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  Speaker 2: of a Bierstein, it's concave. It's like a vessel. It
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: is a vessel. So it's like the alchemical vase, but
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  Speaker 2: it's also so feminine and containing. It's like a womb. Yes.
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  Speaker 4: It is an incredible real union of the opposites, of
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  Speaker 4: the archetypes of masculine and feminine, which are not the
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: same as genders. but they're like yin and yang or
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  Speaker 4: eros and logos. And here is a union of the
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  Speaker 4: opposites that you literally can get a handle on. And
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  Speaker 4: then there is the magical beverage. Of course, you can
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: drink anything, but what's beer? They're beer steins. And that
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: magical process of transforming hops and other ingredients into... This
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  Speaker 4: transporting beverage that can change your mood.
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  Speaker 2: It's all chemical.
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  Speaker 4: That's it.
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  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 4: That's exactly.
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  Speaker 2: It's like the aqua permanence.
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  Speaker 3: And thinking about your blending, some of them can be 12,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: 14 inches long. I mean, they're really substantive. So they're
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  Speaker 3: both phallic and feminine. So they're both containing as well
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  Speaker 3: as being a kind of. They can be really big. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: They're really works of art that are substantive.
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  Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that also is being
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: revealed is that, you know, when Jung, at the beginning
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: of his confrontation with the unconscious, when there were some
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: kind of parapsychological things going on, and we've talked about
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: that before on the podcast, one of them actually occurred
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: around the Bierstein. So the beer stein was sitting, he
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: had it in a special room, you know, in his
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: consulting room in the cupboard. And he had this particular
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: meeting with an analysand. He didn't say who it was.
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  Speaker 2: But there was a loud noise that occurred during the session.
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  Speaker 2: And when he opened up the cupboard, you know, it
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: was like the knife that beer stein had shot.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: Oh, wow. Wow.
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  Speaker 2: So it's like there was something really psychologically active in
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: that session. And so, you know, that's another really kind
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: of fascinating thing, right? That these were so invested with
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: his psychic... Material.
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it matters to us, doesn't it?
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: That we can find these personal details of Jung's life
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: so that we can... really imagine him more as a man,
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: and don't we always want to know, really, what was
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: this person like? And these personal kinds of details. But
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: I remember seeing some of the beer steins on that
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: shelf in his office, Lisa. Some of them he kept
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: in a cupboard, I guess, but there was a whole
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: row of them right there in his study that at
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: the time, before this material had come up, and come
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: to light recently, I just thought was, you know, he
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: was German-Swiss, and so he had some tchotchkes on his shelf.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: But of course, I should have thought about this, that
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: for Jung, it would have had to have been significant.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: One of the things that we've also been reading about
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: is that Jung experienced something called synesthesia, which is this
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: very interesting phenomena where the psyche is so fully extended
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: into an object that it creates sensory phenomena in the
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: owner of the object. So one of the things that
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: was both painful and highly vulnerable is that when people
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: would handle the beer steins, Jung would feel as if
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: they were touching his physical body. So it was a very,
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: very complicated process of caring for the beer steins that
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: often Jung wanted to only be the one who touched them.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: But there is, I guess, a slightly funny anecdote. It's
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: that when Emma had really had enough of Jung, had
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: just really needed to put him in his place, she
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: would go grab one of the beer slimes, and she
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: would flick it with her nails really aggressively, and Jung
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: would cry out as if he was being struck in
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: the face. Wow. It's a bizarre thing.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: I'm going to try that with my husband. Absolutely.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: But it was effective. I mean, we can understand why
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: Emma was incredibly frustrated from time to time. But it
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: speaks to, as we were saying before, the way in
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: which the Biersteins and Jung's body both had this interesting... Yeah.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: melding process.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Right. And the kind of psychoidal level, right?
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: But let's just back up a bit for our listeners
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: of the psychoidal level as part of Jung's theory that
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: there is a place where matter and psyche affect each other,
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: where they meet.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: And that doesn't sound so radical today, but it was
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: pretty radical then. And let's also sort of unpack the
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: idea of synesthesia. little more because that is a neurological
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: fact and that some people, when they see numbers, for example,
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: see them in color. So the visual cortex and the
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: cortex that can conceive of numbers, again, somehow there's a crossover.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: so that what we, most of us, perceive as separate
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: sensory functions get conflated. And that's what you were talking about, Joseph,
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: with the Biersteins, is that, you know, they could embody
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: the energy, the physical energy of touch, so that Jung could,
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: you know, sort of perceive it as a kind of
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: almost a sort of a transmitter. Right.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: So in that regard, he would optically, he would visually
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: see Emma smacking the beer stein, but that would be
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: translated as a kinesthetic sensory experience, as if the body
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: was being struck in some way in that kind of
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: really angry, flicking motion that she would regularly deliver in
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: order to punish him, I suppose, one way or another.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: Of course, the other more erotic dimension is that it
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: was almost intolerable for him to watch their maid bathe
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: any of the Biersteins, that it felt as if his
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: body was being stroked, and it was deeply disturbing. So
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: there are stories of him rushing over and grabbing the
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: Biersteins and kind of pushing her out of the way
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: because it was just overwhelming.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Right, when she went after it with a feather duster,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: for example.
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: Anything like that, that delicate touching of the Biersteins, was
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: just overwhelming to him kinesthetically.
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: You know, we've been talking about the psychological connection with
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: the Biersteins, but there was a kind of more mundane
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: use that he put the Biersteins to. And of course,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: this did involve allowing other people to touch them. So
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: he was very careful about who he did this with,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: but he would regularly use them to engage in drinking contests. Hmm. So,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: for example, you know, he would pour a stein for
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: himself and maybe one for Marie-Louise von Franz. And, you know,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: then they'd have to chug and see who finished first.
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: And some of those beer steins were huge.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: And apparently he really he liked to challenge Marie-Louise von
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Franz to a drinking contest and she hated it. But
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: she felt she couldn't say no because she always lost
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: and apparently she couldn't really hold her liquor. But, you know,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: this was a serious kind of dominance behavior in a way. And,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: you know, there are stories of him doing it with
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Freud and with other colleagues. and rivals.
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: A kind of a gotcha thing where you hand somebody
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: a beer stein that can hold, you know, 20 or
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: 24 ounces of beer. And somebody who's fairly petite, like
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: Marie-Louise von Franz, didn't have a chance to So there
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: was a real challenge there. I wonder when Freud and
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: Jung visited, which stein he handed Freud. Freud was also
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: not a large man, and Jung was a very large man.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: So if you're going to induce a change in state
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: and summon the unconscious, no better way than to offer
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: somebody a stein full of, Many, many ounces of beer.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: You know who could drink Jung under the table, though,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: and was always named for one of these? It was Ruth.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: What was her last name, Deb? Was it Ruth Perkins?
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she was the one who went with Jung to Africa.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: She was a very practical. She became a very close friend.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: And she was very, very practical, very caretaking. She was
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: a nurse. Jung's children visited and spent the summer with her.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: And he valued her for her groundedness, her no-nonsense attitude,
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: her sort of physical sensate hardiness.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: And she could drink.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: She could sling it back.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: She could put it away. That's great.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: That was nice. At least there was somebody that could
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: actually communicate. Once in a while, take him down a
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: peg or two and drink him under the table.
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: Although, I tell you, I would have liked to have
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: been a fly on the wall to see what Jung
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: was like when he was really tipsy and the kinds
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: of stuff that he would disclose and the kind of
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: hijinks he would get into.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: I think that would have been a lot of fun
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: and probably embarrassing. I'm sure that's why the family doesn't
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: talk too much about it. So Jung and the Objects.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: So we started by talking about how he would go
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: into the kitchen, he would address his pots and pans,
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: and he would have a rather elaborate morning breakfast in
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: that way. So we know that he was particularly attached
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: to his beer steins. We know that he was talking
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: to his pots and his pans. And one of the
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: things that Jung was particularly fascinated by was a small toaster.
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: That he would use.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: Of course, there were electric toasters, but this was a
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: kind of toaster where the bread would be cut, it
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: would be leaned inwards, and then a small amount of
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: coal would be placed underneath it so that it would
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: be kind of near the hearth, but it would be
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: part of the toasting process. And he had a pet
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: name for it, Gemütli, Little Gemütli, which basically, I think
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: in German, I apologize for mispronouncing it, just means the
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: warm one, the toasty one. Yes, it's so sweet. And
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: so while the toaster was doing its things, Jung would
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: sing a little song to it and be kind of
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: fascinated by the whole alchemical process of toasting. And of course,
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: when we think about the idea of the alchemical process,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Getting things just.
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: The right temperature, the right closeness to the fire. Not
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: too much.
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: You have to pay attention.
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Too little, it doesn't work.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: It's absolutely the alchemical attitude. You don't just mix things together.
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: You have to attend. You have to put soul into
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: the process.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: So he would talk to Gamutli and would coach I'm
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: not sure which gender it was, but would coach it
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: to make sure that it didn't toast too much or
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: too little. And then if the toaster would burn, that
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: Jung would scold Gemütli severely. There are stories of people
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: just hearing him cursing a blue streak and accusing Gemütli
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: of ruining the toast, which goes to the whole scapegoat archetype.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: You know, to lay your sins upon the toaster. And
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: then he would banish it. Sometimes he would put it
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: outside near the woodpile for several days to banish it
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: from Bollingen. And sometimes there would be a rapprochement, and
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Gamutli would have to offer some kind of a small
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: gift in order to be returned to the kitchen and
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: into the company of the other pots and pans.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: The whole redemption cycle here. But I kind of like that...
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: the relationship with these objects could include conflict. You know,
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: that he could play out this whole thing of the banishment,
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: the scapegoating, and then the return and the redemption. It's
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: really sweet. I like that a lot. You know, and
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: I'm also thinking about, of course, toasting is, isn't it
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: the perfect thing to do? Because then you ingest the bread,
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: the staff of life, as toast, which, you know, why
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: do we toast bread? Because it adds texture and flavor
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: and delight.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: It's so archetypal.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: It really is. And you're doing it, Jung was doing
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: it literally at the hearth. You know, we forget in
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: modern life that the kitchen was the hearth. The heart
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: of the home. So, you know, these idiosyncrasies are loaded,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: loaded with meaning.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: And it evokes myth and fairy tales. It's just so profound.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: Yes, and your sourdough bread baking, Lisa.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: I was thinking about the same thing that we were
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: talking earlier. But I like the idea of the naughty toaster.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: And I have started actually looking at my own toaster
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: really differently. And when it burns the toast, I cannot
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: tell you how unbelievably gratifying it is to blame the
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: toaster and to really give it a good scolding and
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: give it hell. And it's really become this wonderfully ambivalent,
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: almost devilish object in my own kitchen. It heats things up.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it burns it. It has an almost devilish, satanic effect.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: quality to it. And so I've been leaning into that feeling,
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: of course, as we all do admire Jung's creativity. And
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: I have to say that really letting your toaster be
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: alive and really holding it responsible because so many things
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: in your kitchen are just totally irresponsible.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: Oh, I like that a lot of Of granting it autonomy,
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: which is so in keeping with Jung's theory of the unconscious,
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: that it has its own creativity, its own direction, its
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: own energy. But you're also alluding, I think, very much
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: to the archetype of the trickster. That if the toaster
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: has autonomy, sometimes it burns the toast.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Because other things are creativity. It's in your hand, like
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: the pots in your hand, the spoons in your hand.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: But the toaster, you're helpless, man. You just put that
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: toast in and you back away. And just as you said,
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: might work, might burn it, might come out doughy and
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: not enough. So there is this weird feeling of autonomous
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: intelligence in the trickster that's invested into the toaster.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, you know what that reminds me of? If you've
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: ever read Marie-Louise von Franz talk about why so many
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: fairy tales have to do with the miller or the
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: miller's daughter, it's because, you know, in a medieval society,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: everyone did something by kind of the sweat of their labor.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: If you were a farmer or you were a blacksmith,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: but the miller was tricky because he relied on, usually
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: it was water power. And he didn't really have to
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: do anything. So that's kind of the significance. So this
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: really reminds me of that, Joseph, that there is something
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: tricky about kitchen appliances.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: The spirit in the bottle.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Like the spirit in the toaster.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Well, I think this has been quite an intense experience.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: I certainly hope that people are feeling comfortable with this
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: new information. On one level, it seems rather harmless and playful.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: On another level, you know, it lets us know about
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Jung's vulnerabilities.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I think it really deepens our understanding of the man
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: and his work.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: The idea of him cuddling the bear, Stein, and feeling
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: so deeply attached to that and Gemütli, the toaster, that
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: he lived in a very magical world.
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he was living a symbolic life. life where things
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: were ensouled and had autonomy and he could have a
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: relationship with them I think it's actually very moving.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Oh that's so beautiful the way you said that the
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: depth of feeling yes definitely.
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: And that it's there for all of us in everything
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: we do and touch every day, including the toaster.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: And Joseph, I'm wondering if, would you feel comfortable just
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: saying a little bit more about how having that kind
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: of relationship with your toaster has changed you?
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: Well, it's made the whole process of, because I don't
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: keep the toaster on the counter, that I actually, it
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: lives in the cabinet because it has a little bit
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: too much of an influence on Once you begin to
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: feel like your appliances are talking to you, you really
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: have to titrate your exposure to them. So there's a
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: special cabinet, particularly in my house in North Carolina, and
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: I keep it in a small metal tray, once again,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: to contain it because I do have this feeling that
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: it may.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I know this sounds so strange, but there are times
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: I feel like I have found it in other locations,
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: so it has to be kind of contained in a small...
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: steel pan, like a catering pan. So I kind of
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: slide it out only when I really want to deal
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: with it. I put it on the counter and plug
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: it in. And then as soon as I have a
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: sense that the electricity is moving through the toaster, I
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: begin to feel in a kind of Frankenstein way that
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: suddenly there's a quality of life that has come into
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: the toaster.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: I have tried to start with a negotiation before I
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: offer it any bread. We try to iron it out.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: Does it feel like it's in a good mood? Do
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: I feel like it's going to mistreat the bread?
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: Oh, but I like that. It's important to establish. It's
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: always important to establish a kind of rapport rather than
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: it's so tempting for the ego to just feel like
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: it's dominant.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: It relativizes my own cooking arrogance. Because I can feel,
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: you know, when I'm making toast, I know this is confessional,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: but I feel kind of godlike. There's something about commanding
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: the butter, the jam, peanut butter sometimes that has a
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: certain inflating dynamism. And I think that goes back to
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: my early childhood and being able to command my grandmother
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: to make me peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. that kind
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: of high chair tyrant energy. So when I do it
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: for myself, I feel that it's dangerously inflated.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: But I like very much how you have compensated for
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: these feelings by the respect that you are showing for
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: the toaster, that it does need to be contained. It
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: does need to be consulted. It is a collaborative process,
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: and it's not just one of, I'm in charge, I'm
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: putting the bread in. It's really infused with a depth
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: and symbolic resonance that I find incredible.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: And Joseph, talking about inflation, I can totally see that, right?
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Because if you think about what a toaster is, most essentially,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: it's like we are commanding the central fire. Oh my gosh.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Beautiful thing.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: Oh, that's important.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: About, you know, he's putting mirrors around the central fire
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: and the central fire is sort of like the self and, and,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: and there it is in this little contained countertop unit,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: you know? So, so I think it absolutely is inflating
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: to have that kind of power.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. And then there's a certain responsibility. Like mine has
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: little buttons on the side, you know, bagels, defrosting, thick
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: toast and then there's another dial to make it you
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: know hotter or less hot right and so there is
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: there is this kind of interfacing process that i also
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: feel responsible for but i have to tell you i'll
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: think that i've got the settings right and the next
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: thing i know i turn around smoke is pouring out.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Of the toaster. Yeah, and you're in Calcinadio.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: And we are at it, man. The kind of arguments
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: that the toaster and I have, no one should have
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: to hear that kind of language from a toaster. The things,
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: it's out of control. It's out of control.
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: But Lisa's right. That's Calcinadio where the dross, otherwise known
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: as an accumulation of breadcrumbs, You know, the dross has
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: been unattended to and needs... So true, Deb. Right.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: So true.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: And it's really shadow. It's the shadow of the bread
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: that drops down below and ignites. Because why? We haven't
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: seen the shadow. We haven't paid attention to the shadow.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: And then all of a sudden, there it is in
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: this incredible, dramatic... scary way with smoke pouring out of
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: the toaster.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Well, and it reminds me that also one of my
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: most intimate experiences with Toasty is that I have.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: Is that its name, by the way?
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Toasty?
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Toasty is the intermediary name. I know there is some
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: other much more mythic name that I haven't... I'm listening.
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: Still shrouded in mystery.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: Bring it over to the sink. And then, you know,
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: there's that little catch tray in the, in the bottom
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: And then just ever so subtly sliding it out, you know,
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: very gently tapping the crumbs out, maybe cleaning it out
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: a little bit and then just sliding it back in there.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: It's like changing its diaper.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my God. What a fascinating metaphor.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: And it has a, a warmth in that experience where
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: if I do it gently and I'm kind of humming
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: a little bit that the toaster seems happy just seems
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: happy maybe that's the point of.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: It all yeah well we're so grateful to Jung for
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: pointing the way right that we could have this kind
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: of relationship with inanimate objects in particular the toaster in.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: Particular but I'm thinking about how Jung and countless others
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: toasted bread over the fire or over a coal, and
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: that it took personal involvement. You have to hold the
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: bread and get it just so. And what you're bringing
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: to us, Joseph, is that that same quality of relationship
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: and reverence can be brought to a modern-day toaster. And
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: so many people just drop the bread in, hit a button,
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: and forget about it. But you're bringing that kind of sensitivity,
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: just as Jung did, toward your toast making today. And
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: it's possible for everyone to do that.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: I think that is the message.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so too.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: He's led the way.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: And has empowered me to experiment. With the objects in
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: my kitchen, I'm hoping to expand that so I have
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: a greater sense of community among the various appliances in
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: my kitchen, some of which I've recently purchased and have
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: not introduced to the toaster, but I believe that that's forthcoming. Okay.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: And it makes me feel closer to Jung because that's
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: the whole point.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: I would never have really thought of something like that.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: But for Jung. But for Jung.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: For Jung.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: And we offer this special episode in gratitude to Jung.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: And so from all of us to all of you,
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: April Fools! We hope you enjoyed our funny romp. totally
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: ridiculous so silly come to us and.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: And it's so much fun to play.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: It's so much fun to play.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to This Jungian Life. From our website, thisjungianlife.com,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: you can follow us on Twitter, like us on Facebook,
• 38:39
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• 38:43
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• 38:48
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• 38:50
  Speaker 1: for today's show and hope you'll let us know what
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: topics you'd enjoy hearing more about. Until next time, keep
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: living this Jungian life. Thank you.