Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #425 Jason Flom with Larry Smith Jr.

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#425 Jason Flom with Larry Smith Jr. · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: On March twenty fourth, nineteen ninety four, a man named
0:05
Speaker 1: Carl Voltz dropped off his friend Kenneth Hayes at twenty
0:07
Speaker 1: two point fifty Annabel Street in Detroit, Michigan. As he
0:11
Speaker 1: got out of the car, a gunman came out of
0:13
Speaker 1: the darkness, fatally shooting Hayes as he struggled up the driveway.
0:19
Speaker 1: Neither Carl Volts nor anyone in the house had seen
0:21
Speaker 1: the shooter's face. However, a car in the area belonged
0:25
Speaker 1: to a young man named Jay Clay, which led investigators
0:28
Speaker 1: to another young man named Larry Smith. The victim's landlord
0:32
Speaker 1: said that Hayes's grow friend identified Larry, and the landlord's
0:35
Speaker 1: son thought the assailant walked like Larry as well. Then
0:39
Speaker 1: Shell Casings allegedly founded the scene with the same size
0:43
Speaker 1: as one allegedly found in Larry's laundry hamper. But this
0:48
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's episode
1:04
Speaker 1: is an episode well of full circles. And when I
1:08
Speaker 1: say that we have somebody who listeners the show will
1:11
Speaker 1: probably recognize one of my great heroes, Jared Adams, whose
1:16
Speaker 1: full circle involved going from being wrongfully convicted himself, from
1:20
Speaker 1: serving over a decade in a maximum security prison to
1:24
Speaker 1: becoming a lawyer and helping other wrongfully convicted people get justice. Jarrett,
1:30
Speaker 1: so great to have you back on the show.
1:32
Speaker 2: Thank you. Jason, always a pleasure man.
1:34
Speaker 1: The other full circle here is the star of our show,
1:38
Speaker 1: a gentleman named Larry Smith Junior. We're glad you're here.
1:41
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
1:42
Speaker 1: When I say full circle. This is a man who's
1:44
Speaker 1: working at a rec center now in Detroit, Michigan, helping
1:48
Speaker 1: senior citizens as well as youth. And it is Detroit
1:51
Speaker 1: that he was snatched out of when he was just
1:53
Speaker 1: a kid himself. But before we get into all of that,
1:56
Speaker 1: what was your life like growing up? Did you grow
1:59
Speaker 1: up in a Detroit.
2:00
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, I was the only child my mom.
2:03
Speaker 4: She had me and then my siblings would come later,
2:06
Speaker 4: like basically through it. I had adoption more or less.
2:08
Speaker 4: But we was family. We grew up in the same
2:10
Speaker 4: house and life was cool. My mom always told me
2:12
Speaker 4: long as I worked, as long as I put forth
2:14
Speaker 4: that effort, as long as I did well in school.
2:17
Speaker 4: At the times was tough, but it was gonna come
2:19
Speaker 4: a time when they wouldn't be so tough. She was
2:21
Speaker 4: gonna have those degrees that she was going and working
2:23
Speaker 4: so hard for, and that our life was just gonna
2:25
Speaker 4: be different.
2:26
Speaker 3: Great.
2:27
Speaker 1: So right, I read here that your mom was studying
2:29
Speaker 1: for her masters in sociology. Do you have similar aspirations?
2:33
Speaker 1: I mean, you're just an eight year old kid at
2:35
Speaker 1: the time. What did you have in mind? What did
2:37
Speaker 1: you want to do with your life.
2:38
Speaker 4: I was working and I was going to school, and
2:41
Speaker 4: my attent was to become a respiratory therapist.
2:43
Speaker 3: I think my future was promising.
2:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, and your nickname, I understand, was butter how'd that
2:48
Speaker 1: come to be?
2:49
Speaker 2: My mama?
2:50
Speaker 3: Some with my mom when I was born?
2:52
Speaker 1: My complexion And this is the Michigan story. And we've
2:55
Speaker 1: heard a lot of Michigan stories on this show, and
2:58
Speaker 1: this was aticular time and place when people were being framed.
3:03
Speaker 1: It's call it what it is like. It was day
3:05
Speaker 1: in and day out.
3:06
Speaker 2: You got to think about where Detroit was in the nineties,
3:10
Speaker 2: just like a lot of the inner city neighborhoods dealing
3:13
Speaker 2: with the crack epidemic and drugs and gangs and things
3:17
Speaker 2: like that. So Detroit was dealing with a bunch of homicides,
3:21
Speaker 2: you know, And what they would do is try to
3:25
Speaker 2: find ways to resolve unsolved homicides, and they would do
3:30
Speaker 2: it in a way that would just downright be violating
3:34
Speaker 2: people's constitutional rights.
3:36
Speaker 1: So Larry fell into the cross hairs somehow, and it
3:39
Speaker 1: didn't make sense because you were a kid who wasn't
3:41
Speaker 1: on the radar, shouldn't have been on the raidar of
3:43
Speaker 1: the police at all, which must have been tricky just
3:45
Speaker 1: to avoid that life in the area and that time
3:48
Speaker 1: and place that you were growing up in. But somehow
3:50
Speaker 1: or other, you were navigating these challenges and then everything
3:54
Speaker 1: went crazy. So Jared set the stage for the whole
3:58
Speaker 1: situation if you.
3:59
Speaker 2: Would, well, I think the best place to start with.
4:02
Speaker 2: Set in the stage is Ralph Cartwright, who was addicted
4:06
Speaker 2: to drugs along with his mom, Sondra cart Right, lived
4:10
Speaker 2: together in a house that they used to rent out
4:13
Speaker 2: rooms to drug dealers to have a supply of drugs.
4:19
Speaker 2: And in this case, the victim lived in one of
4:22
Speaker 2: those rented rooms because he sold drugs and rob drug dealers.
4:27
Speaker 1: Which is dangerous behavior to say the least. So the victim,
4:31
Speaker 1: Kenneth Hayes, was shot around five thirty am March twenty four,
4:35
Speaker 1: eighty four, in front of the Cartwright's house at twenty
4:37
Speaker 1: two fifty Annabel Street, Detroit, Michigan.
4:40
Speaker 2: The victim was called out of his house at the
4:42
Speaker 2: middle of the night to do a drug deal. He
4:44
Speaker 2: has someone drive him to an apartment complex. We assume
4:50
Speaker 2: he makes a purchase or not he comes back. When
4:53
Speaker 2: he's coming back and he's getting out of his vehicle
4:56
Speaker 2: is when someone is lying in wait and runs out
4:59
Speaker 2: of the bushes and fire shots. The victim takes off
5:03
Speaker 2: and runs across the front of the car from whether
5:05
Speaker 2: a person dropped them.
5:06
Speaker 1: Off and the driver was mister Hayes's friend, a guy
5:10
Speaker 1: named Carl Voltz, and.
5:11
Speaker 2: Mister Volts saw the shooter and said, I couldn't see
5:15
Speaker 2: anyone's face, but he gave a description, and it did
5:19
Speaker 2: not match Larry at all. He described the man as
5:23
Speaker 2: being heavy set. If you see any picture of Larry
5:26
Speaker 2: from back then Larry is then you would not mistake
5:30
Speaker 2: him for being heavy set at all.
5:33
Speaker 1: Right, But Carl Voltz's description was disregarded, as was the
5:36
Speaker 1: statement of another witness, the victim's girlfriend, who was in
5:39
Speaker 1: the house at the time of the shooting. What did
5:41
Speaker 1: she tell the police?
5:43
Speaker 2: She said exactly what she said to the Conviction and
5:45
Speaker 2: Charity unit. Years later, she says she never saw anyone
5:49
Speaker 2: shoot the victim. The victim was her boyfriend, so she
5:53
Speaker 2: would have been honest about that. She said she was
5:55
Speaker 2: still in the bed sleep and didn't see anything but
5:58
Speaker 2: herd the shots.
5:59
Speaker 3: No.
6:00
Speaker 1: No one knew about that statement until years later. Rather,
6:03
Speaker 1: there was a statement from the landlord, Sandra Cartwright, who,
6:06
Speaker 1: as someone involved in drugs, she and Ralph were vulnerable
6:10
Speaker 1: to police coercion. Well Cartwright attributed the following words to
6:14
Speaker 1: the victim's girlfriend quote, I looked right in his face.
6:18
Speaker 1: It was butter unquote and as we mentioned, that was
6:21
Speaker 1: Larry's childhood nickname.
6:23
Speaker 2: That same person denied ever saying that she saw Larry.
6:27
Speaker 2: And she also told police the very same day that
6:31
Speaker 2: they were investigating, that someone had came up to her
6:35
Speaker 2: in a social club and told her that they were
6:38
Speaker 2: going to kill her boyfriend, and she gave them the
6:41
Speaker 2: name of that person. And they never went to go
6:45
Speaker 2: talk to this guy investigate this guy.
6:48
Speaker 1: So instead of just an open and shut case, they
6:50
Speaker 1: chased down a far less compelling lead than a drug
6:53
Speaker 1: dealer who was recently robbed, and who knows what kind
6:56
Speaker 1: of relationship that drug dealer had with law enforcement. So
6:59
Speaker 1: this much less compelling lead was that one of the
7:03
Speaker 1: witnesses had said that they saw a car that belonged
7:05
Speaker 1: to a friend of Larry's name, Jay Clay, who delivered newspapers.
7:09
Speaker 1: But it was five thirty am, the typical newspaper delivery time,
7:13
Speaker 1: and this was on his delivery route.
7:15
Speaker 2: Larry's friend has identified his vehicle driving past around the time.
7:19
Speaker 2: He has a legitimate reason why. Now, something like that
7:24
Speaker 2: in most cases isn't uncommon to be reported and followed
7:28
Speaker 2: up on, But in Larry's case, they didn't follow up
7:31
Speaker 2: on it to investigate it, to find out if it
7:34
Speaker 2: was any truth of whether his friend was involved, well,
7:37
Speaker 2: whether he was involved. They investigated to make them involved.
7:43
Speaker 2: They apply pressure to Sondra Cartwright and made her come
7:49
Speaker 2: up with a version of events that has been found
7:53
Speaker 2: to be untrue, and the police knew because they had
7:56
Speaker 2: a police report from the young lady said she never
8:01
Speaker 2: told Sandra cart Write anything about identifying Larry Smith as
8:06
Speaker 2: shooting because she says she was never.
8:08
Speaker 1: Up And then Ralph Cartwright supported his mother's narrative saying
8:11
Speaker 1: that he didn't see Larry's face, but he recognized him
8:14
Speaker 1: anyway in the area before and after the shooting. No, no, no, no, no, no, Like,
8:21
Speaker 1: what does that even mean?
8:22
Speaker 2: Larry was never identified ever at all by eyewitness. They
8:27
Speaker 2: got the witness to say that the person that they
8:31
Speaker 2: saw around the crow six, the way they walked was
8:35
Speaker 2: similar to how that guy named Butter, you know, a
8:38
Speaker 2: couple blocks down walked and also his freeend drives the car.
8:43
Speaker 2: So you can see how if you want to make
8:46
Speaker 2: that narrative fit, you can make it fit.
8:48
Speaker 1: So we have Sandra cart Writ's secondhand identification even though
8:52
Speaker 1: the alleged eyewitness said she never saw anyone, and then
8:56
Speaker 1: Ralph making an identification of Larry's walk which sounds like
8:59
Speaker 1: some sort of like that's almost junk science to the
9:03
Speaker 1: nth degree. But this was just a precursor to actual
9:07
Speaker 1: junk science later when a Hancho brand footprint was allegedly
9:12
Speaker 1: found at the scene. Now, Larry, this was in your neighborhood.
9:15
Speaker 1: Your friend Jay had probably overheard the shots. When did
9:17
Speaker 1: you hear about it?
9:18
Speaker 4: Well, my mom she called me at work, said she
9:21
Speaker 4: wanted me to go to the police station. I ain't
9:23
Speaker 4: asked no question, like okay, mama, I ain't did nothing,
9:27
Speaker 4: I ain't involved in nothing. So I got my car
9:30
Speaker 4: from work and I drove down there to me twenty
9:33
Speaker 4: six years, ten months in seven days actually to come
9:35
Speaker 4: home from that ride.
9:51
Speaker 2: So as they're investigating the case, they've already gotten out
9:55
Speaker 2: ahead of their skis. They've charged both Larry's friend and
9:59
Speaker 2: Larry with this murder based solely off of this guy
10:04
Speaker 2: who says he saw the vehicle and he's seeing a
10:07
Speaker 2: guy running away who appears to walk like Larry, and
10:11
Speaker 2: the third party statement of a lady who says someone
10:17
Speaker 2: told them they saw, you know, Larry do it. So
10:21
Speaker 2: the case immediately starts to fall apart because Jason it
10:24
Speaker 2: wasn't true. On the day that Larry was arrested, the
10:28
Speaker 2: police go inside of his house and they come out
10:31
Speaker 2: and say, we found some shellcasings and these shellcasings, mattch
10:37
Speaker 2: some shellcasings that are over at the crime scene right right.
10:41
Speaker 1: They said forty caliber bullets were used, and then they
10:44
Speaker 1: allegedly found an empty box of forty caliber bullets in
10:47
Speaker 1: Larry's bedroom, as well as a spent shellcasing in his
10:50
Speaker 1: laundry hamper, which was then said to have been fired
10:53
Speaker 1: by the same weapon.
10:54
Speaker 2: But then the autopsy report comes back and the autopsy
10:58
Speaker 2: says the victim was not with the shallcasings that you
11:02
Speaker 2: got from the crime scene or that you got from
11:06
Speaker 2: Larry's house. He was shot with a smaller caliber weapon
11:09
Speaker 2: and the bullet was left inside of him.
11:11
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, it gets worse, It.
11:15
Speaker 2: Gets, it gets worse.
11:16
Speaker 1: Listens to it to keep from crying sometimes, I know.
11:20
Speaker 2: But this is gonna really blow your mind. Now. So
11:23
Speaker 2: as the weeks are going on and they're turning into months,
11:27
Speaker 2: and they're realizing that they got the wrong guy right,
11:31
Speaker 2: the wrong two guys.
11:32
Speaker 1: But they still tried to square this circle. So let
11:36
Speaker 1: me guess they accused Jay the paper boy of firing
11:39
Speaker 1: at thirty two.
11:40
Speaker 2: The cold defendant is able to produce a lady, and
11:43
Speaker 2: this is an older lady, very credible, no dog in
11:47
Speaker 2: this fight. She says that that boy was on my
11:49
Speaker 2: porch handing me the paper when we both heard the shots,
11:53
Speaker 2: and so that definitively places the cold defendant delivering papers.
11:59
Speaker 2: So they dissed the charges against the co defendant, And
12:03
Speaker 2: now said Larry did this all by himself and had
12:07
Speaker 2: to be shooting with two guns and got away on
12:10
Speaker 2: foot there with.
12:11
Speaker 1: Two guns, like the wild West, like boo boom.
12:13
Speaker 2: Boom with the wild West. It gets worse, Okay, when
12:16
Speaker 2: they investigate further, they find out that the person who
12:18
Speaker 2: dropped off the victim, mister Votes said, I couldn't see
12:21
Speaker 2: anyone's face, but the guy was only firing from one gun.
12:26
Speaker 2: So literally every step that they took to frame Larry,
12:31
Speaker 2: it was unraveling. So what they did was they reached
12:35
Speaker 2: to an old trick and they produced a jail house
12:39
Speaker 2: informant who put together a false story and he had
12:43
Speaker 2: never even met or seen or was even housed with Larry.
12:48
Speaker 1: So Larry, back to you. So now you're caught up
12:51
Speaker 1: in this vortex. I mean, describe to us what it
12:54
Speaker 1: was like. You go from the police station, they interrogate you,
12:57
Speaker 1: they took you straight to jail. From there, they kept.
12:59
Speaker 3: Me in jail like three days, and they put me
13:01
Speaker 3: in a county.
13:02
Speaker 1: How long were you in jail awaiting trial?
13:04
Speaker 3: Eight months or something?
13:05
Speaker 1: Did you get to sign a public defenders trash?
13:09
Speaker 3: My mother, she took her last money and got an attorney.
13:11
Speaker 4: He didn't do very well more or less like did
13:14
Speaker 4: you ever heard the term somebody swap somebody out or
13:17
Speaker 4: they don't do a great job. And I say that
13:19
Speaker 4: because the guy who testified against me, the jail house person,
13:22
Speaker 4: he had testified against other people as well.
13:25
Speaker 3: He had a history and if.
13:27
Speaker 4: Somebody would when it did some type of investigation, it
13:29
Speaker 4: was records that was in there, but the police and
13:31
Speaker 4: the prosecutors had them.
13:32
Speaker 3: They was in eight files, and.
13:34
Speaker 1: It's possible that they never made those records available to
13:37
Speaker 1: your attorney, just like the statement from the victim's girlfriend.
13:40
Speaker 1: But had you known about this repeat offender snitch, that
13:44
Speaker 1: could have crumbled their whole house of cards. But still,
13:48
Speaker 1: even without that, this snitch, Edward Allen, his story was
13:53
Speaker 1: full of holes. He alleged that you had bragged about
13:56
Speaker 1: how you killed Kenneth Hayes with a glock nine millimeter
14:00
Speaker 1: guns right while J. Clay had a forty five caliber.
14:04
Speaker 1: So he got the calibers wrong and the number of
14:08
Speaker 1: assailants wrong. Pretty important details. But nonetheless, the state went
14:12
Speaker 1: to trial in November of ninety four, presenting the cart rights,
14:16
Speaker 1: this erroneous snitch testimony, as well as the forty caliber
14:19
Speaker 1: shell casings, which allegedly served as this connection between Larry
14:23
Speaker 1: and the crime scene, even though the victim was killed
14:25
Speaker 1: by a thirty two caliber weapon and the only actual eyewitness,
14:29
Speaker 1: Carl Voltz, said that the shooter fired only one gun.
14:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, the police tried to frame Larry.
14:36
Speaker 2: It was a plant of forty caliber shalecasinges at and
14:40
Speaker 2: around the scene of the shooting, and that these showcases
14:43
Speaker 2: were recovered from Larry's house, and when the ballistics came
14:48
Speaker 2: back from the autopsy, it clearly was not the same
14:52
Speaker 2: caliber and there was some explaining to do.
14:55
Speaker 1: Yet they still presented a police technician and a detective
14:58
Speaker 1: that testified about the forty caliber bullets found at the
15:01
Speaker 1: scene in Larry's house, followed by a medical examiner who
15:04
Speaker 1: testified about the thirty two caliber bullets found in the
15:07
Speaker 1: body of the victim.
15:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the bullet is so much bigger on a
15:11
Speaker 2: forty caliber.
15:12
Speaker 1: They even presented a police firearms expert, David Pouch, who
15:15
Speaker 1: testified to that fact, but he also testified that the
15:19
Speaker 1: forty caliber casings found at Larry's house were fired by
15:21
Speaker 1: the same gun as the casings from the scene, So
15:24
Speaker 1: in other words, just doubling down on the two gun theory.
15:27
Speaker 2: Even though the only real eyewitness, Carl Votes, has said
15:33
Speaker 2: he never saw anything but one person shooting with one gun.
15:36
Speaker 2: Carl testified that as soon as the victim got out
15:39
Speaker 2: of the car, someone ran out of a gangway and
15:41
Speaker 2: opened fire on him, who he described in detail, and
15:46
Speaker 2: the description did not match Larry at all.
15:48
Speaker 1: While Carl Bowles exonerated Larry, if the jury were to
15:52
Speaker 1: believe him over law enforcement, it would have meant that
15:55
Speaker 1: those shells had to have been planted in Larry's house,
15:58
Speaker 1: which was something it seems like they were not willing
16:01
Speaker 1: to accept. It would have also meant that two more
16:03
Speaker 1: officials who took the stand and claimed that Larry had
16:05
Speaker 1: made incriminating statements to them while in custody, had actually
16:09
Speaker 1: perjured themselves.
16:10
Speaker 2: They did purged themselves, I mean, point blank period.
16:12
Speaker 1: They lot, but somehow they had muddied the waters enough
16:16
Speaker 1: with the casing allegedly found at Larry's house and the scene,
16:19
Speaker 1: in addition to a bootprint that was found at the
16:21
Speaker 1: scene that they matched with the Hancho brand boot taken
16:25
Speaker 1: from Larry's house. When the shoe print analyst took the stand,
16:28
Speaker 1: the prosecutor asked, quote, and these are a mirror image
16:32
Speaker 1: of that pattern, end quote to which the expert agreed.
16:35
Speaker 2: If I found a pair of prints for air Jordans,
16:38
Speaker 2: what does that mean nothing?
16:40
Speaker 1: There are other Air Jordans, just like there are other
16:42
Speaker 1: Hancho brand boots. I mean right, It's like, did they
16:46
Speaker 1: only manufacture one pair? It's insane, which is one reason
16:50
Speaker 1: why shoeprint analysis is such bullshit, especially when there's no
16:55
Speaker 1: other corroborating information.
16:57
Speaker 2: The boot was a boot that his cousin had a
17:00
Speaker 2: bag full of other clothes. They never provided any context
17:02
Speaker 2: to this boot. They never said they saw any mud
17:05
Speaker 2: on the boots, that the boots had looked like it
17:07
Speaker 2: had been worn at all. There was never any pictures
17:11
Speaker 2: matched up to the prints of the boots. The shit
17:14
Speaker 2: was all made up.
17:15
Speaker 1: And you can hear the shoe print analysis episode of
17:18
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction junk signs that we're gonna have linked in
17:20
Speaker 1: the bio. I just listened to it again myself. It's
17:22
Speaker 1: it's mind boggling. So now we get to our witnesses.
17:25
Speaker 1: Let's start with Sandra cart Right, who testified about the
17:28
Speaker 1: victim's girlfriend's alleged identification. Quote I looked him right in
17:33
Speaker 1: the face. It was butter end quote.
17:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, I looked him right in the face. And Sandra
17:38
Speaker 2: cart Wright had an open case against her, and she
17:43
Speaker 2: didn't come to court to testify. On a day that
17:46
Speaker 2: she was called, the police issued a warrant for her arrest,
17:49
Speaker 2: and in exchange for her testifying, they dismissed the charges
17:53
Speaker 2: that were pending against her.
17:55
Speaker 1: So incentivized to say the least. But this statement was
17:58
Speaker 1: a second hand account. What about the girlfriend herself?
18:01
Speaker 2: She was never called to court. It was some trickery.
18:05
Speaker 2: And you know, there were some shortcomings of Larry's defense.
18:08
Speaker 2: I'll just say that a fast one was gotten over
18:11
Speaker 2: on them, and this witness was never called. I don't
18:14
Speaker 2: believe that the defense team ever had the police report
18:18
Speaker 2: that was taken the night of from the witness who
18:21
Speaker 2: says that she never saw anyone. I believe if they
18:24
Speaker 2: had that they would have called her. Because we know
18:26
Speaker 2: that Larry himself didn't learn of it until after his
18:30
Speaker 2: post conviction lawyer had obtained it. And this was already
18:34
Speaker 2: a decade later.
18:35
Speaker 1: Wow, So the judge, jury and defense were completely unaware
18:39
Speaker 1: of the girlfriend's actual statement just Sandra cart writes secondhand
18:44
Speaker 1: testimony to the contrary with no opportunity to cross examine
18:47
Speaker 1: the actual eyewitness.
18:49
Speaker 2: And not only can they not cross examine this person,
18:52
Speaker 2: but now you have a jail house in Foreignert coming
18:54
Speaker 2: in and you know, he's like, yeah, he told me
18:56
Speaker 2: he did it, and things like that, and so you
18:59
Speaker 2: put that together, it's the perfect storm.
19:02
Speaker 1: And I understand that the inconsistencies between the guns and
19:05
Speaker 1: the snitch testimony and the thirty two caliber bullets pulled
19:08
Speaker 1: from the body of the victim that was never pointed out.
19:11
Speaker 4: I didn't know nothing about this guy testified that gives
19:14
Speaker 4: me doing what he had a history of doing. Like
19:16
Speaker 4: I just knew I didn't say nothing to him. I
19:18
Speaker 4: knew I didn't say nothing to no police, that I
19:21
Speaker 4: didn't commit no crime.
19:23
Speaker 1: So the fabricated evidence appears to have overcome the only
19:28
Speaker 1: actual eyewitness, Carl Voltz, as well as your mother who
19:32
Speaker 1: testified about how you were in your basement bedroom all
19:35
Speaker 1: night long.
19:36
Speaker 2: She knew Larry was in the house because she was
19:38
Speaker 2: in the front room finishing up their dissertation to complete
19:42
Speaker 2: her Masters and it was only one way Larry could
19:45
Speaker 2: get out of his room. He would have to come
19:47
Speaker 2: up the stairs and go out the front door.
19:50
Speaker 4: When they said guilty, man, do you know that?
19:52
Speaker 3: My lawyer?
19:53
Speaker 4: When I asked him, I said what they say. He
19:54
Speaker 4: pushed away from me like he was scared. He didn't
19:57
Speaker 4: even want to talk to me. He wanted to be
19:59
Speaker 4: separated from me. And it was like, you got my life.
20:02
Speaker 4: Man helped me, you know, helped me. Goodness, man, I'm sorry.
20:26
Speaker 4: I went to Riverside quarantine. First, they brought us off
20:29
Speaker 4: a bus, all of us together, and they had a
20:30
Speaker 4: woman strip searchers like they had a man tell us
20:32
Speaker 4: take all our clothes off, and they had a lady
20:35
Speaker 4: inspectors like we was cattle. This introduction into institutions, it
20:39
Speaker 4: was like experience and the closest thing that I could
20:41
Speaker 4: see slaves having. My second day in general population, I've
20:45
Speaker 4: seen a guy get raped. I walked in the shower
20:47
Speaker 4: on the guy was getting raped. Eight months seeing I've
20:49
Speaker 4: seen a guy get killed.
20:50
Speaker 3: I stayed there about ten months.
20:52
Speaker 4: From there, they send me up north to u RF
20:54
Speaker 4: and that stand for you are fucked.
20:57
Speaker 3: They had on KKK.
20:58
Speaker 4: Belt buckles, tattoos and that you would have to fight
21:02
Speaker 4: with the guards period, and if you didn't fight the guard,
21:05
Speaker 4: you had to go to the hole for a year.
21:07
Speaker 4: If you whooped the guard, then you was the man.
21:10
Speaker 4: If you didn't whoop the guard or you was refused
21:12
Speaker 4: to fight. If you lost, it was okay. But if
21:15
Speaker 4: you didn't fight, you had to go to a hole.
21:16
Speaker 1: For a year like some gladiator shit.
21:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, they tell you fight fuck a lock up,
21:23
Speaker 4: and that's what it was. So to go through that experience.
21:27
Speaker 4: In the whole time, all I'm saying is, damn God,
21:29
Speaker 4: why you do this to me? Like I ain't dead nothing,
21:32
Speaker 4: So now like I'm going through process of okay, ain't
21:35
Speaker 4: no God, ain't no, this, ain't no that. Like Mama,
21:38
Speaker 4: I'm trying. Every phone causes eight to ten dollars to
21:42
Speaker 4: call home everything. I'm just a purity burden on everybody.
21:46
Speaker 4: I need help. The only help I got his meat.
21:49
Speaker 4: I just got testified against by somebody who I don't know.
21:51
Speaker 4: And then I'm back in nineteen ninety five. I'm finding
21:54
Speaker 4: out that the guy who testified against me, the jail
21:57
Speaker 4: house person, he had testified against other people as well.
22:00
Speaker 4: He had a history. Well how do I find these people?
22:03
Speaker 4: And that's put off a whole nother rat race because
22:06
Speaker 4: now I'm going through the process of learning to live
22:08
Speaker 4: inside of this environment. But I got to ask people
22:10
Speaker 4: who they call killers, that I need to find out
22:13
Speaker 4: what the hell is going on with me in my life.
22:15
Speaker 1: So you were navigating this horrendously violent situation while not
22:20
Speaker 1: knowing who, if anyone, you can trust, but still desperately
22:24
Speaker 1: in need of information on this snitch Edward Allen, who
22:27
Speaker 1: was a prolific jail house snitch, and he wasn't the
22:30
Speaker 1: only one by far. Rather, Wayne County had a snitch
22:34
Speaker 1: system where they were sort of routinely incentivizing these guys
22:39
Speaker 1: not only with lenient sentences, but they took it several
22:42
Speaker 1: steps further. I'm talking about drugs, women they would provide.
22:47
Speaker 1: They basically turned part of the police station into a flophouse.
22:51
Speaker 2: Just going to say that too, Jason, where you can
22:53
Speaker 2: come and have girls come in and go out. And
22:56
Speaker 2: really what they were doing was this. They had a
22:59
Speaker 2: couple men at a time who were housed on a
23:03
Speaker 2: ninth floor lockup. And let me explain what the ninth
23:06
Speaker 2: floor lockup is. If you're suspected of a crime, the
23:09
Speaker 2: police could hold you for up to forty eight hours,
23:13
Speaker 2: but at that point they have to either release or
23:15
Speaker 2: charge you. So anyone on the ninth floor is only
23:19
Speaker 2: supposed to be on the ninth floor for up to
23:22
Speaker 2: forty eight to seventy two hours. You know, at most
23:26
Speaker 2: they had a couple men at a time who were
23:29
Speaker 2: living on the ninth floor who were Michigan Department of
23:33
Speaker 2: Corrections inmates who were ritted out and housed on the
23:38
Speaker 2: ninth floor and given jobs as tear tenders, and they
23:43
Speaker 2: would grab a broom, sweep past your sale, start a
23:47
Speaker 2: conversation up with you, and he go out the next
23:49
Speaker 2: day and say I talked to him what you need
23:52
Speaker 2: me to do?
23:53
Speaker 1: And that was the scheme. If I understand this correctly.
23:56
Speaker 1: They were giving these guys on the ninth floor like
24:00
Speaker 1: papers to read so that they would know what to say,
24:02
Speaker 1: right because they obviously nobody confessed to these idiots when
24:06
Speaker 1: they were sweeping along the thing like, I mean, just
24:09
Speaker 1: thick for a second, how ridiculous that is. Some guy's
24:12
Speaker 1: sweeping along. It's like, hey, Larry, how you doing. Oh
24:15
Speaker 1: I'm doing great. I just killed this guy at five
24:17
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. How you doing? What's your name? Again,
24:19
Speaker 1: it's so stupid that it's like, I mean, nobody's gonna
24:22
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, but somehow or other they were able
24:24
Speaker 1: to sell it.
24:25
Speaker 2: And one of the alleged culprits who was in this
24:28
Speaker 2: informant thing, he had done this upwards of twenty cases
24:32
Speaker 2: and no alarm bells go off none. This goes without saying,
24:37
Speaker 2: but I have to say it. This was happening to
24:40
Speaker 2: young black men in the city of Detroit. This would
24:44
Speaker 2: have raised alarm beals if this took place in an
24:47
Speaker 2: affluent neighborhood or county. They were only doing this to
24:51
Speaker 2: people who had very little resources to afford a defense.
24:56
Speaker 2: And you say this all the time, Jason. The justice
24:58
Speaker 2: system is what you can afford, which.
25:00
Speaker 1: You can't absolutely and it starts with cash bail, because
25:03
Speaker 1: let's face it, if you have money for bail, you
25:05
Speaker 1: don't go through the same experience in the criminal legal
25:09
Speaker 1: system as those who don't. Guilty not guilty, it doesn't matter.
25:12
Speaker 1: Only money matters, and not having it can leave you
25:16
Speaker 1: in a situation or an informant has an opportunity to
25:18
Speaker 1: trade false information on you, as what happened in this case,
25:22
Speaker 1: that can then be spun to appear truthful in court.
25:25
Speaker 1: And this Edward Allen and countless other snitches have worked
25:29
Speaker 1: the system with their allies in the prosecutor's offices around
25:32
Speaker 1: the country, and who knows, we'll never know how many
25:35
Speaker 1: lives they've ruined.
25:36
Speaker 4: By the admission of the guy testified against me, not
25:39
Speaker 4: only did he lie, he was weaponized by them. They
25:41
Speaker 4: taught him what to do when he was a minor
25:43
Speaker 4: and then became an adult, and then made it all
25:45
Speaker 4: the way to do it to me. Matter of fact,
25:47
Speaker 4: it's a guy named Charles Wilson one seven two six
25:50
Speaker 4: eight eight. The same guy testified against me, testified against
25:53
Speaker 4: him thirteen years before.
25:55
Speaker 2: Why he's still in prison.
25:57
Speaker 1: He's still in prisons.
25:58
Speaker 3: Yes, he's in prison right now, twenty some years.
26:01
Speaker 1: And that's Charles Wilson. I'm just gonna write that name
26:03
Speaker 1: down right now. I got it our producer Connor, who's
26:06
Speaker 1: of course listening in. It sounds like we're gonna have
26:09
Speaker 1: to cover this case.
26:10
Speaker 2: We're representing mister Wilson. We definitely need a push. I'll
26:14
Speaker 2: discuss to you. You know what our strategy.
26:16
Speaker 1: Is, well, you know my number. So this guy, Edward Allen,
26:19
Speaker 1: Larry was definitely not his only you know, victim, Let's
26:23
Speaker 1: call it what it is. In fact, he gave an
26:26
Speaker 1: interview edbro Allen gave an interview in twenty seventeen in
26:29
Speaker 1: which he spilled his guts on everything, which ended up
26:32
Speaker 1: being very helpful in freeing Larry and several others.
26:36
Speaker 2: When the informant was interviewed, he said he had never
26:40
Speaker 2: seen Larry before. He didn't even know what he looked like.
26:44
Speaker 2: He says that he was fed the information by prosecutors
26:48
Speaker 2: and by police officers and told what to say, who
26:52
Speaker 2: to point out, and how to get around the questions
26:55
Speaker 2: of the defense attorney. This was not an accident. This
26:58
Speaker 2: was deliberate. Larry and his mom were ill prepared to
27:01
Speaker 2: fight against this because Larry had never been in any
27:04
Speaker 2: trouble before. His mom at the time that this was
27:06
Speaker 2: going on, she was so adamant that Larry didn't do anything.
27:10
Speaker 2: And do you know whose testimony they found not credible
27:14
Speaker 2: and whose testimony they found credible? I can guess they
27:17
Speaker 2: found mom's testimony not credible. But somehow a lifelong informant
27:23
Speaker 2: who had not even met Larry didn't have any of
27:27
Speaker 2: the details correct. Somehow the court in the jurors found
27:33
Speaker 2: this got to be more credible than the person who
27:35
Speaker 2: gave birth and raised.
27:37
Speaker 1: Larry credible until, of course, he was no longer useful.
27:40
Speaker 1: And as I understand it, before the twenty seventeen interview
27:43
Speaker 1: and all this information came out, Allen had actually written
27:47
Speaker 1: a letter to Larry in two thousand and three admitting
27:49
Speaker 1: that he'd lied. But the judge denied your motion for
27:52
Speaker 1: a new trial anyway, saying that she didn't find Alan's
27:55
Speaker 1: recantation credible. How convenient, then your new attorney, Mary Owens,
27:59
Speaker 1: filed habeas in two thousand and seven. The following year,
28:03
Speaker 1: the Michigan State Crime Lab was shuddered after widespread errors
28:06
Speaker 1: and firearm testing and ballistics evidence were exposed, including in
28:09
Speaker 1: cases involving the expert in your case, David Pouch. So
28:13
Speaker 1: when Mary Owen sought to retest the forty caliber casings
28:16
Speaker 1: allegedly found at the scene and in your basement, the
28:19
Speaker 1: crime scene casings were saved, but the one from your
28:21
Speaker 1: basement had been destroyed. Again quite convenient.
28:25
Speaker 4: So I had just jumped from two thousand and seven
28:27
Speaker 4: to twenty and thirteen, right, I'm transferring from prison to prison.
28:31
Speaker 4: So a guy by the name of Jesse agnew He
28:33
Speaker 4: asked me to see a brief of mine. He said, hey, man,
28:35
Speaker 4: I'm gonna introduce you to Claudia Whitman. She came from
28:38
Speaker 4: Colorado and she went to bat for me for like
28:40
Speaker 4: twelve years. She fought for me pro bono, her and
28:43
Speaker 4: Mary Owens, and come be known all the guys who
28:45
Speaker 4: got released based on this what happened to me. Claudia Whitman,
28:50
Speaker 4: she ended up knowing all of them.
28:51
Speaker 2: There were four guys whose convictions were reversed that were
28:56
Speaker 2: tied to this ninth floor allegation in a certain set
29:00
Speaker 2: of homicide detectives, and.
29:03
Speaker 4: They had what they call our Conviction Integrity Unit in
29:05
Speaker 4: Wayne County. That's what opened up and that's what freed me.
29:09
Speaker 2: So when Val Newman and the Conviction Integrity Unit started
29:13
Speaker 2: investigating these cases, they saw that the same allegations were
29:17
Speaker 2: being made. And Jason, you know how that goes, right, Like,
29:20
Speaker 2: if one person, yeah, two persons maybe, but if three,
29:24
Speaker 2: four people, five people are saying the same thing, then
29:27
Speaker 2: it deserves some credit and also some deeper dive investigation.
29:31
Speaker 2: In Larry's case, they went to interview the witnesses again,
29:35
Speaker 2: and sure enough, the young lady said again she never
29:40
Speaker 2: told anyone she saw Larry shoot anyone because she wasn't
29:43
Speaker 2: even looking out outside. She said she never said it.
29:46
Speaker 2: So at that point is when I believe Val Newman
29:50
Speaker 2: and the Conviction Intergrity Unit acknowledged the corruption that was
29:54
Speaker 2: so blatant in the case. I took my cap to
29:57
Speaker 2: the courage it took from that office to would turn
30:00
Speaker 2: his conviction, because if it was left to Larry filling
30:03
Speaker 2: the motion in court, we would be doing this interview
30:06
Speaker 2: off of a prison call, because no court really designed
30:11
Speaker 2: to take such courageous acts. They are more so designed
30:15
Speaker 2: to preserve finality than they are to deliver justice.
30:18
Speaker 1: That's true across our entire criminal legal system, unfortunately, and
30:22
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court of the United States actually ruled that
30:26
Speaker 1: way and said that even in death penalty cases, that
30:28
Speaker 1: finality is more important than actual innocence. And people find
30:33
Speaker 1: that shocking, and it is shocking, and it should be
30:35
Speaker 1: shocking to anybody of good conscience or just anybody at all.
30:38
Speaker 1: But that's where we're at. And of course the system
30:42
Speaker 1: is designed thanks to the awful EDPA Act back from
30:45
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four and other factors. Yeah, we need to
30:48
Speaker 1: repeal edput exactly. And these things make it virtually impossible
30:52
Speaker 1: for somebody to dig out of that quicksand that you
30:55
Speaker 1: found yourself in. And luckily there was a conviction of
30:58
Speaker 1: you unit, and luckily there was somebody there who was sincere,
31:01
Speaker 1: and that's a big part of why you're here.
31:03
Speaker 2: Man.
31:03
Speaker 4: It's heavy, and I think every day like I love
31:06
Speaker 4: al Newman because if it be one for her, I wouldn't
31:08
Speaker 4: be out of prison. She said that one wrongfully convicted
31:11
Speaker 4: was one too many. So you know, I'm just hopeful
31:14
Speaker 4: that they hear this and they hear the pleat for
31:16
Speaker 4: that man, Charles Wilson, so that I can get that
31:18
Speaker 4: stuff for all my conscience because I know that guy
31:20
Speaker 4: lied on me. And every time I talk to Charles Wilson,
31:24
Speaker 4: I'm telling him, Bro, it's gonna be all right. And
31:26
Speaker 4: it's making me feel like I'm a liar, because it's
31:28
Speaker 4: not all right for somebody to wake up for forty
31:30
Speaker 4: years plus in prison for a crime to commit.
31:33
Speaker 3: It's not all right.
31:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, we're in that fight together and that's for sure.
31:37
Speaker 1: And we got Jared, you know, And for me, it's
31:40
Speaker 1: such an honor to get to know you and to
31:42
Speaker 1: see people like yourself who've been through hell and come
31:44
Speaker 1: out carrying buckets of water for the people left behind.
31:47
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think there's anything better. You know,
31:50
Speaker 1: you could be doing and taking this horrible, horrible, unimaginable
31:54
Speaker 1: experience and transforming it into positive good, just as Jarrett
31:57
Speaker 1: has done and has so many of the other ex houneries.
32:00
Speaker 1: So okay, so let's get to the good stuff. So
32:04
Speaker 1: ultimately you prevailed. So take us to that series of events,
32:09
Speaker 1: because I you know, we've had a lot of doom
32:11
Speaker 1: and gloom on this show, but I want to hear
32:12
Speaker 1: the good stuff.
32:13
Speaker 4: Well, they had let Ramon War go, they had a
32:16
Speaker 4: little Sino Hamilton go, they had let Banara Hower go.
32:19
Speaker 4: So watching these people go, my attorney told me that
32:22
Speaker 4: she felt like they was going to do something. So
32:25
Speaker 4: I was in the in there sleeping and guys come
32:27
Speaker 4: and hit the door.
32:28
Speaker 3: Boom boom boom boom boom. I jump up, like, man,
32:31
Speaker 3: what's up?
32:32
Speaker 4: Go to the door. They're like, man, you going home tomorrow.
32:35
Speaker 4: You're going home tomorrow. And it's people all I'm talking about,
32:39
Speaker 4: like prisoners. They all in the hall way and I'm
32:42
Speaker 4: coming out. I'm looking like what's up? And the security
32:45
Speaker 4: guards people they clapping.
32:46
Speaker 3: Like, bro, you're going home tomorrow. I'm like what They're like, Yeah,
32:50
Speaker 3: I go to the TV. I see it on the TV.
32:53
Speaker 3: I get up there.
32:54
Speaker 4: I started passing my stuff for a whund because they
32:56
Speaker 4: say I'm going to court tomorrow where they saying they're
32:58
Speaker 4: going to drop the charges. So the next day came
33:01
Speaker 4: and I didn't go to court. I just walked straight
33:03
Speaker 4: from back in the day room with a prison to
33:06
Speaker 4: the control center to the street where I read a foreigner,
33:08
Speaker 4: half paid statement about other people in it semitically frail
33:11
Speaker 4: over sentenced being incarcerated, asking the governor to take a
33:15
Speaker 4: look at what had been taking place. And that's just
33:17
Speaker 4: what happened, man Like. It wasn't no big long. It was, oh,
33:22
Speaker 4: you're going home to Maryland, and I was to it.
33:24
Speaker 1: I must have seemed like a dream, especially since you
33:26
Speaker 1: were woken up out of a deep sleep and just banging,
33:29
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden everybody's cheering. I mean,
33:31
Speaker 1: you must have had that dream before and now it
33:33
Speaker 1: was real.
33:33
Speaker 4: I'll just say this for anybody who've been through what
33:36
Speaker 4: we've been through. Right, they gonna understand this. It's times
33:39
Speaker 4: in my life that I still think I'm dreaming. But
33:41
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna do nothing to mess it up. See,
33:43
Speaker 4: I ain't gonna do nothing to mess it up long
33:45
Speaker 4: as I keep putting out good energy, long as I
33:48
Speaker 4: keep giving the love that was bestowed on me.
33:50
Speaker 3: See, I ain't get a second chance. This was really
33:53
Speaker 3: my first chance.
33:54
Speaker 4: But for a lot of people our experiences, they considered
33:57
Speaker 4: to be a second chance. They say stuff like, don't
33:59
Speaker 4: do that no more. Right, So you're right, I won't
34:02
Speaker 4: go down to the police station. Like, you're right, I
34:05
Speaker 4: won't do that no more. But as far Red just
34:07
Speaker 4: loving it being a part of giving energy and advocating
34:11
Speaker 4: on behalf of innocent people, medically frail people. Oh but
34:14
Speaker 4: since people like I'm gonna do that every day and
34:16
Speaker 4: a day gonna go by, I ain't gonna do that.
34:18
Speaker 1: Larry, is there anything you want people to do? Is
34:22
Speaker 1: there a website you think they should go to? Is
34:24
Speaker 1: there another person besides Charles Wilson you want to shout
34:28
Speaker 1: out and bring attention to their case? And what can
34:30
Speaker 1: people do to help?
34:31
Speaker 4: So out of Wayne County we got Tamara Washington, She's
34:34
Speaker 4: going through what I'm going through. They say her file
34:37
Speaker 4: is missing. So she talked to Dwayne County prosecuted. She
34:40
Speaker 4: told us that she would do what was needed in
34:42
Speaker 4: order to help her out, but she never did. So
34:44
Speaker 4: I want to shout out to Merraa Washington four A
34:46
Speaker 4: six three six y four Wayne Duve sixteen forty four
34:50
Speaker 4: ninety eight, again innocent, but he been in prison over
34:53
Speaker 4: forty some years. So I want to ask you guys
34:55
Speaker 4: this question. When a person is innocent, right and they
34:58
Speaker 4: got natural life, when you say that over and over again,
35:01
Speaker 4: what is the next step? Is there any formal relief?
35:04
Speaker 4: Is there any formal relief with a person with a
35:06
Speaker 4: death sentence inside of prison? Is there another option that's
35:10
Speaker 4: made available for that person too? So you serve forty
35:13
Speaker 4: forty one, forty five years, when is enough enough? So
35:16
Speaker 4: I just want to point that out that in this
35:18
Speaker 4: country where you don't have no self gates and then
35:20
Speaker 4: how you pronounce it the ADPA atput so then you
35:24
Speaker 4: got something as such, it don't allow us to file
35:27
Speaker 4: our appeals. So I'm hopeful that us is on the
35:29
Speaker 4: reads as a collective can march down on DC, and
35:32
Speaker 4: that we could talk to these administrations about what's taking
35:35
Speaker 4: place in this country. Because without getting our friends at
35:38
Speaker 4: the top to help us on our local levels and
35:41
Speaker 4: getting our people on the local levels to work with
35:43
Speaker 4: us people on these levels.
35:44
Speaker 3: We done, man, We done.
35:46
Speaker 4: So that's all I just want to say, is innocent
35:49
Speaker 4: medically frail over sentience It When you get old and
35:52
Speaker 4: you innocent, you're going to die in prison. That means
35:54
Speaker 4: you're gonna become medically frail because you over sentenced. I
35:57
Speaker 4: just want people to learn that.
35:59
Speaker 1: With that, we now turned to my favorite part of
36:01
Speaker 1: the show, which of course is called closing arguments or
36:04
Speaker 1: I again thank YouTube guys, Jared Adams, Larry Smith Jr.
36:08
Speaker 1: For being here with us today and sharing your stories.
36:12
Speaker 1: And then I'm going to turn my microphone off and
36:14
Speaker 1: kick back in my chair, close my eyes with my
36:17
Speaker 1: headphones on, and just listen to any other thoughts you
36:20
Speaker 1: want to share with me and our amazing audience. So, Jared,
36:25
Speaker 1: we always do it the same way. You go first,
36:27
Speaker 1: and then we turn it over to our future guest.
36:30
Speaker 2: I would love for us to find a way to
36:33
Speaker 2: implement both strategies that prevent wrongful convictions collectively as well
36:39
Speaker 2: as tackle issues of reintegration. And I say collectively again,
36:45
Speaker 2: and I'm speaking to the entire innocent world when i
36:47
Speaker 2: say this, the innocence world, the movement, the network, the organizations.
36:52
Speaker 2: We need to start moving as one body because it
36:55
Speaker 2: is way too difficult to deal with one case alone. Collectively,
37:00
Speaker 2: if we move in the same direction, the same accord,
37:04
Speaker 2: same beat, it allows us to fight this giant a
37:07
Speaker 2: lot more effectively. I say that along with tackling the
37:12
Speaker 2: issue of government entities such as cities like the City
37:16
Speaker 2: of Detroit, who has decided not to compensate mister Smith
37:20
Speaker 2: but instead find a way to limit their damages and
37:25
Speaker 2: continue to drag mister Smith through this anxiety field roller
37:29
Speaker 2: coaster that has not sopped since he went down to
37:33
Speaker 2: the police station willingly because his mama called him.
37:36
Speaker 4: I'm just going to say that for every person that's
37:40
Speaker 4: got a family member that's incarcerated, some people saying they innocent,
37:43
Speaker 4: other people, you know, they're just there for a long time,
37:46
Speaker 4: don't give up on your people. If if my people
37:48
Speaker 4: would have gave up on me, I would have died
37:50
Speaker 4: in prison for a crime ie commit. And it was
37:52
Speaker 4: that energy that allowed me to carry on to our
37:54
Speaker 4: community in which I stay here and to be able
37:56
Speaker 4: to put forth these actions. So I just call on
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Speaker 4: every person out there to put forth they good effort,
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Speaker 4: put forth they good heart, because it's something good and everybody.
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Speaker 3: I'm hopeful anyway.
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Speaker 4: So free William Wiley, Free Tamia Washington, of course, free
38:11
Speaker 4: Charles Wilson. And thank you for having us, Thank you
38:13
Speaker 4: for having Jared and myself, and thank you for doing
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Speaker 4: what you do. Oh freeda innocent freedom medically frail Fredo
38:20
Speaker 4: over since we cannot lead it out.
38:28
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction. You can
38:30
Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts
38:33
Speaker 1: one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus
38:36
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team
38:39
Speaker 1: Connor Hall, Andy Chelsea, and Kathleen Fink, as well as
38:42
Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn.
38:46
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time
38:48
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
38:52
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
38:55
Speaker 1: at Wrong for Conviction. You can also follow me on
38:57
Speaker 1: Instagram at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production
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Speaker 1: of Lava for Good podcasts in association with Signal Company
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Speaker 1: Number one