Latest / Recovering Out Loud / Methadone, Suboxone & the Fentanyl Crisis: What Recovery Really Takes

Transcript

Methadone, Suboxone & the Fentanyl Crisis: What Recovery Really Takes · Recovering Out Loud

0:00
I, I will say this though, the hoop that you have to jump
0:03
through is a lot wider than you think.
0:05
I would say is we think that it's I, I thought that we're
0:12
coming back into recovery and doing it all again.
0:15
I thought that it was this mountain uphill in the snow with
0:19
booby traps and rain. And that's what kept me out
0:23
there for so long in my relapse. It's like it's too much work to
0:26
to get back and it's really not. It's not it's, it's a lot easier
0:29
than you think it is, but you have to be willing to take that
0:33
first step. And then when things crop up,
0:36
all those emotions that you've been burying down for so long,
0:40
to keep going through them like it in spite of them, right.
0:45
Because when you numb yourself for so long, the shame comes
0:49
back 30 times, right? I remember in this third
0:52
treatment center that I was in, my wife dropped me off.
0:55
I was a shell of a human. I remember I wasn't even like
0:57
taking in information. I was just so tired and and
1:00
strung out. The first night I was there.
1:02
It was the first night I in the treatment center, I had like a
1:05
panic attack from anxiety because I hadn't used for I had
1:09
detox for four days before that. So there was like the fifth day,
1:14
the first thought of my head was my wife, you know, died on the
1:17
way home. My mom died on the like, I
1:19
wouldn't know I'm in a treatment center how much?
1:21
And so all these things started like piling up and spinning in
1:25
my head. A long winded answer to that
1:27
question is whenever you have to talk about it, that's that's the
1:33
hardest part is whatever you're going through, you have to talk
1:37
about it. Hi there.
1:39
Welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast, the
1:43
show where we get real about mental health and addiction.
1:46
I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is
1:49
struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out for
1:53
help. Send me a message on all social
1:55
media platforms at Recovering Out Loud pod or by e-mail at
2:00
recoveringoutloudpod@gmail.com. You are no longer alone.
2:20
Thank you so much for coming, Kate.
2:21
I appreciate it On this treatment journey, I'm learning
2:29
a lot about treatment centres in Canada.
2:32
I know I was mentioning to you I've been to three.
2:36
I really like what you said though, about, you know, before
2:38
we started recording here that there's a lot of people don't
2:42
know what to look for in treatment centers, right when
2:45
they're going for their loved ones or even for themselves.
2:47
I know specifically when I was going to to rehab the first
2:50
time, I didn't really, I didn't want to go at all.
2:52
So I didn't I didn't care if it was good or bad or whatever.
2:56
I was in a place where I just I knew I had a problem with
2:58
cocaine and I knew I couldn't stop on my own And I knew that
3:01
my parents were gave me an ultimatum essentially, right.
3:04
And it, and I was 23 years old. It saved my life.
3:06
I look back and, you know, although it wasn't an amazingly
3:11
comfortable vacation like experience it in a lot of ways,
3:14
I learned a lot of tools early on that I still use today,
3:19
right? So it was, overall, it was a
3:20
good experience, but I found that I had to come to a place
3:23
where I was like, OK, maybe I'm wrong about this, this like this
3:29
recovering thing, this answer to my drug problem.
3:32
Maybe I'm wrong. And maybe all these addiction
3:35
professionals around me who have been to school have had lived
3:38
experience. Maybe they got something, maybe
3:39
they're on to something here, right?
3:41
And I was trying to tell people now when I, when they're picking
3:43
a treatment center, it's like when you do end up going to 1,
3:46
the most important thing that I ever did was listen to to what
3:49
they say, right? If they're recommending
3:50
something, it's not because they want to make money off of you.
3:52
Most of the time, they know what they're talking about.
3:55
OK? So why don't you start us off?
3:58
Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do for
4:02
CATC, OK? A.
4:06
Little bit about myself. So my background, I started my
4:13
early career in criminology. I have a degree in criminology
4:17
and I thought that's what I wanted to do at the time I
4:21
started in the correctional service.
4:23
So I worked in the correctional setting really early, really
4:27
early on, like early 20s, and I realized what a hopeless,
4:33
hopeless, hopeless, negative environment it was.
4:36
So I think from an early age I knew that there was a specific
4:40
population or group of folks I wanted to work with.
4:42
I just was too young and stupid to figure out how I wanted to
4:45
work with them or what helping could look like.
4:49
And I landed in the opiate agonist treatment space actually
4:56
completely by accident, which is how I came to work at CTC.
5:01
So I had started on a a new sort of career path.
5:06
I wanted to certify as an addiction counsellor and I'd
5:09
gone back to school to do that, but it's really difficult to
5:14
learn about opiate agonist treatment or methadone is what
5:18
we had at that time until unless you work in IT, that you can't
5:22
take courses or classes. And it's kind of this little
5:27
niche sort of ecosystem. So I got a job at a clinic in
5:32
Kingston and I thought I'll, I'll go there for three or six
5:36
months while I'm going back to school and get in and learn
5:38
everything I can. And then I'll get out and I'll
5:40
take this and hopefully that experience will serve me if I'm
5:44
working with clients who are on methadone.
5:48
And I never left because I was so smitten with the space.
5:55
I, I really, really loved the the clients and their
6:01
resilience. That's the thing for me that is
6:04
just so crazy about working in treatment, recovery, harm
6:10
reduction, whatever word or space people want to use or work
6:14
in. The resilience of people is just
6:18
so inspiring. And at CTC I've played a number
6:24
of roles. So I've been director of
6:26
operations, I've been director of clinical services.
6:29
Right now I'm in a strategic partnership role and I like it.
6:34
I love it. I get to connect with people all
6:36
over Ontario, but I'm based out of a clinic.
6:43
So when I work at home, I work in a clinic because I think it's
6:48
important to not get too far away from the people that you're
6:50
trying to serve, right? It's important that you
6:56
understand what people are going through, both patients and their
7:00
clients and also the staff that are there to support them.
7:05
And I think often, I mean, that's the thing that I love the
7:08
most. But I think often when people
7:09
are in leadership decisions or making decisions about things,
7:15
they do it from too far of a distance.
7:18
Yeah. You know.
7:19
That's true with any company. I mean, it's true managing
7:23
behind a desk. Yeah.
7:24
I worked in corporate for a long time and it's like, how Why are
7:27
you making this policy change? You've never been in the field a
7:30
day in your life. Right.
7:32
Exactly. Anyway, did I even answer your
7:34
question? Yeah, yeah, definitely.
7:35
OK. And you know, you brought up
7:37
what the OAT opiate agonist treatment, which was called,
7:42
right, methadone. Can you explain that a little
7:45
more for people? So opiate addicts, Yeah.
7:50
Yeah. OK.
7:51
So for people who use opioids for an extended period of time,
7:56
you know, prescription opioids, Percocet, Oxycontin,
8:01
hydromorphone, morphine, that we started as a prescription opioid
8:04
crisis, right? And it's evolved to become this
8:07
toxic, contaminated illicit drug supply.
8:10
But the human body becomes dependent on opioids when you
8:14
take them over an extended period of time.
8:17
So what happens when you try to stop is there's a very, very
8:23
difficult withdrawal syndrome that's associated with it.
8:26
It looks like a severe, severe flu.
8:30
It's not normally life threatening, although I think
8:32
when people experience acute withdrawal, they wish they, they
8:35
think they might die and it doesn't.
8:39
And you can't recover from it quickly.
8:41
It, it could go on it, it can go on for a prolonged period of
8:44
time. So there's the, the physical
8:47
aspect to it. And then there's like the
8:49
depression and the anxiety and, and the things like that that
8:53
accompany with it. Absolutely.
8:58
But people, I think you know, listen, people do white knuckle
9:01
people will are able to to go cold Turkey.
9:06
But for folks that have to get up and you might have to parent,
9:09
you might have to work, you might be going to school, you,
9:12
you know, people have to get up and live their lives.
9:15
It can be absolutely impossible to, to mitigate or get through
9:18
these this this withdrawal syndrome.
9:21
And I think we have to also acknowledge that when people are
9:26
using opioids, it's often to manage that emotional pain,
9:31
right? People talk about the euphoria
9:33
associated with with opioids and and that's another big piece
9:40
that that the medication doesn't actually help with.
9:42
So the point of taking methadone or Suboxone or buprenorphine,
9:47
let's call it, is to have a safe prescribed long acting opioid
9:57
and it removes the the withdrawal and it should also
10:00
help ideally with with cravings. If you're not in withdrawal, at
10:03
least you don't have feel like you have to go out and find
10:08
whether it's a pill or fentanyl or whatever it is or.
10:10
Heroin or whatever. Yeah, exactly.
10:12
Xylazine nowadays, and so dangerous these are.
10:15
The ones fentanyl. It's so dangerous.
10:18
The challenge with with opioid agonist treatment right now is
10:22
that fentanyl is so powerful, it's so potent, it's caught with
10:25
so many crazy things that these medications, they're still
10:31
effective, but it's not effective like it was when we
10:34
were in a prescription opioid crisis.
10:37
So it's that much harder to engage people in treatment to
10:44
try to keep them on treatment because it, it it's a struggle
10:47
or it's just less effective. And I think the other big
10:50
challenge in this space, so many folks are, you know, using Poly
10:57
substances. So there is no good medication
11:01
assisted treatment for stimulants, right?
11:04
The fentanyl crystal meth like the Co occurrence of that,
11:09
particularly with people who are struggling with housing
11:12
insecurity, sleeping rough. So you can even if you can try
11:17
to treat someone's opioid use disorder or opioid dependence.
11:23
I don't have a lot at the time for stimulants, you know.
11:26
And I, I know I have personal experience with, with the
11:28
stimulant craving. It's so, yeah, to your point,
11:31
it's like now I've, you know, I've settled this opioid craving
11:35
over here, right? But now I'm depressed.
11:38
Now I'm, you know, whatever. I'm lethargic, tired, hungry,
11:43
and I know it'll fix that, right?
11:45
It's that that dopamine. That's what I need is, is
11:47
dopamine. And yeah, that must be really
11:50
tough. I mean, I never, so I never
11:51
really, I've done my fair share of, of opioids, but they never
11:56
really stuck with me. And I'm I'm so thankful.
11:57
For that. I would get really sick like for
12:00
a entire day after. And I mean, I was buying stuff
12:03
on the Internet like I, I, I probably had fentanyl in, in my
12:06
things. It's a miracle that I'm still
12:07
alive today. But yeah, I've heard that it's
12:11
definitely one of the the hardest ones to get off of is is
12:16
opioids because I mean, it's the cravings are so physical, right?
12:19
I mean, with stimulants there wasn't, at least in my
12:22
experience, I don't know it it was more of a mental thing.
12:25
I remember, I remember getting really tired and lethargic and
12:28
depressed from it. But yeah, what what does a like
12:34
in a perfect world? What does a successful recovery
12:37
from opioid look like from a medical perspective?
12:40
Like what? How is it supposed to go?
12:43
I don't know if it's supposed to go any single way, but let's
12:48
just say textbook or magic wand. It never goes like this.
12:53
A patient or a person would come in and and be initiated on one
13:03
of several medications. Ideally, it's a it's a really
13:09
fulsome discussion with their physician or their practitioner
13:13
And it's it's Co decided, you know, after a full explanation
13:18
of here are the options. Here are the pros and cons of
13:21
both. Here are all the things you need
13:23
to know. I think it's important that
13:24
physicians make their or prescribers make a, a
13:27
recommendation. I mean, that is their area of
13:30
expertise. But I think it's important that
13:32
the patient or the client is fully informed and, and able to,
13:36
you know, make a decision that feels the best for them.
13:39
So the motto used to be in, you know, even a decade ago, start
13:44
low and go slow. So the stabilization period can
13:48
be pretty intense. It's, it's actually a lot of
13:51
work to be on a program. So people have to come in and
13:55
see their doctor, you know, two or three times a week.
13:58
And the doses being the medications being titrated up,
14:02
you want to make sure that someone is at a dose of
14:06
methadone or buprenorphine that lasts for 24 hours.
14:08
That's the goal. Let's get you through a whole
14:10
day with no cravings and no symptoms of withdrawal.
14:12
And we want to make sure it's not too, the dose isn't too
14:15
high, that people feel sedated or drowsy, right?
14:18
People are supposed to feel OK. And that tinkering can take a
14:24
week to six weeks, depending on the person, so that you've got
14:27
this sort of visit appointment burden.
14:29
In the early days, people are going to a pharmacy or clinic
14:33
every single day to get their medication.
14:35
Sometimes, like it's a commitment, it is no joke, But
14:39
at some point you achieve a stable dose.
14:42
And that's when people can start, ideally start to do
14:46
whatever it's going to other things they need to do to stop,
14:49
to start leaving, stop, decrease or start decreasing their drug
14:53
use and eventually move to abstinence.
14:58
And then you're just maintained on the medication.
15:02
And then at some point you would start a, a taper and people
15:07
would taper like a long, sort of slow, gradual taper off the
15:10
medication, which I think is what lots of people want to, to
15:15
believe in. I think people want to think
15:17
that there's a life after this program.
15:19
Cause the drudgery of the program, I think for folks is
15:22
just, it gets so tiresome and old, you know, even at best
15:27
you're coming in twice a twice a month, you know, maybe once a
15:32
month. But it's, that's a tough one
15:35
because if you think about it like a chronic condition, and
15:42
I'm, I'm not on methadone or buprenorphine.
15:44
So I don't have the personal of experience of saying, just stay
15:51
on it because, you know, no one says, when are you getting off
15:54
those puffers? When are you getting off that
15:56
insulin? You know, like that's that
15:59
analogy. So I think it's just so personal
16:02
for people that say, I have to, I have, I've done the work, I
16:06
put the time in. I don't want to do this anymore.
16:09
I think we, I think people have to support them through that
16:12
decision and, and say, you know, these are the things you got to
16:15
watch out for. We're always here.
16:16
Please come back if you need to. But I also think we have to give
16:20
people grace and say, if you want to, if you're, if this
16:24
keeps you healthy and well and you want to be on this for a
16:27
long period of time, do that right.
16:32
I think there's for for people who do achieve recovery while on
16:36
an opiate agonist therapy program, there are a lot of
16:39
pressure from family and friends to like, when are you getting
16:42
off that, you know? And I don't think any of us get
16:46
to tell someone what is best for them.
16:50
So the the situation I described isn't always how it goes.
16:53
And that's OK because there are so many harm reduction benefits
16:57
to being on a program, medication assisted treatment
17:01
program. And not everyone moves to
17:03
abstinence quickly and some people don't for a very long
17:06
time and some people don't. But they do still get the
17:09
benefits of of being on a program and.
17:13
Towards a goal, right? I mean, essentially if, if I'm
17:17
on methadone and I'm not shooting heroin, that's a win,
17:20
right? Like I, I'm a big I, I used to
17:22
be pretty rigid about the harm reduction thing just because my
17:25
experience was, I tried harm reduction and it just, it
17:27
doesn't work for me. I'm an all or nothing guy.
17:30
I can't do a little bit of anything.
17:31
Like, I don't know what 1 is. I've proven that to myself time
17:35
and time again. So I'm, I'm that's just me,
17:37
right? But if I've come a long way in
17:40
that, you know, if you're smoking a joint and it's
17:42
stopping you from drinking or if you're on methadone and it's
17:46
stopping you from snoring cocaine or doing meth or
17:49
shooting, you know, and, and nowadays dying essentially.
17:52
Dying. Yeah.
17:52
That's the big thing, right? Like more power to you. 100% and
17:56
not in in this era of this toxic drug supply, One of the beauties
18:01
of opiate agonist treatment is that at minimum people do have
18:04
some overdose protection and that's just huge, right?
18:09
So you can you can at least live through the the contamination.
18:14
And, you know, that's not to say too like I've, I've, I've been
18:16
on medications in my life where I thought I was going to be on
18:19
them for my entire life. And then you come to a place
18:22
where you're like, this is kind of more of a prison than I, I
18:24
would like it to be. I feel like a slave to this,
18:27
right? Like Vyvanse was an example for
18:29
me. Yeah.
18:30
I was on ADHD medication for a long time and I was like, I
18:32
could, I could do this for the rest of my life.
18:34
Now I look back and I'm like, there's no way, right?
18:36
I just to be just to have to take something every day for me.
18:39
It was like annoying after and I didn't want to.
18:42
If I missed the dose, I was freaking out and then I wasn't
18:44
myself, right? It's just a horrible place to
18:46
be. Yeah, you didn't get to the
18:48
pharmacy before it closed. Exactly.
18:49
I didn't get my refill. And I think I think that's the
18:52
biggest challenge for people on a, on an OAT program.
18:56
You know, lots and lots of names that are horrible, but so valid.
19:03
Liquid handcuffs. People call them methadone
19:05
liquid handcuffs, right. Like it is and you can
19:09
understand why people feel that way.
19:12
So it's hard, it's hard to, to, to balance all of these things.
19:17
But I, I definitely understand why people find the program
19:21
tough to join, tough to stay stick with, tough to stay on
19:25
long term. And those of us that are
19:28
providers of the program, you know, there's rules and things
19:31
you have to follow. But we, I, I really do believe
19:36
collectively we have to do better to make it easier for
19:39
folks, more accessible for folks.
19:42
And I don't mean accessible. I think there's tons and tons of
19:45
access actually. But I'm talking about true
19:47
accessibility in the sense of it.
19:51
It's accessible from a daily life perspective.
19:56
Do you understand what I mean by that?
19:57
Explain that a little more, yeah.
20:00
If you think about, I think there's a lot of narratives in
20:04
Ontario about or even in Canada about more access to treatment.
20:08
We need more access to treatment.
20:09
Whatever treatment looks like, especially in southern Ontario,
20:14
it's not like this in northern or rural Ontario, but there's
20:17
you can go to any pharmacy almost and see a doctor to get
20:21
on methadone or buprenorphine. So there's an accessibility in
20:26
this in the sense of the offering is out there, but once
20:30
you're on it, accessing it is a pain in the ass.
20:36
Do you see what I mean? 8 to 4 hours you know those
20:41
classic healthcare hours where we all have to take time off
20:44
work or you got. To line up too.
20:47
Right, got to go in everyday if you're, you know, if, if you, if
20:51
you're not eligible for caries. And to your point, like what if
20:56
I missed a dose? What if I can't get there?
20:58
Like the other anxiety that it can create for people.
21:02
Like all of those things, we have to acknowledge that they
21:05
exist. And I do think that all of us
21:08
that are providing these things could could put a bit of a bit
21:13
do better to put a patient or client lens on those things to
21:18
say what things could we do differently to make it easier.
21:26
Yeah, instead of going to the alternative right and which
21:28
nowadays is like we said a million times the accidental
21:32
overdose from fentanyl or xylazine or nitrozine is the
21:36
other one now that that just keeps coming up.
21:39
So when I went to I went to rehab in the States twice.
21:42
Methadone was was not a thing there like in in my in the
21:46
treatment centers that I was in all the opiate and there was a
21:48
lot of opiate addicts that the treatment centers I went to.
21:51
I think the US has a bigger problem with opioids, but I
21:54
mean, there's more people, but they definitely we there's an
21:56
opiate crisis across the board, right, No doubt about it.
22:00
I think it's more prevalent in my experience in the treatment
22:02
centers in the US in terms of, and what I mean by that is, you
22:06
know, I've been to rehab here and it's kind of a wide variety.
22:08
There's alcohol, there's weed, there's gambling.
22:11
When I went to the US, it was a lot of opioid addiction and
22:14
specifically heroin. They use Suboxone down there
22:18
almost exclusively. What?
22:20
Why haven't we switched to Suboxone?
22:22
Do you know like what's the difference is?
22:24
Between, No, it's a really, really good question.
22:28
We use both like in, in Ontario, both are available.
22:33
So methadone used to be the gold standard.
22:36
Suboxone or buprenorphine didn't exist.
22:40
It was introduced, I think it, I want to say 2008 in Ontario.
22:44
Don't quote me on that. And then it got on the ODB
22:47
formulary shortly after that. And that's when you actually get
22:51
to people get to access it because before, until something
22:55
goes on the formulary, people have to have great insurance or
22:59
a lot of money. Could you explain that a little
23:01
more the the formulary? Yeah.
23:02
So people have to, if you go to an O program in Ontario, the
23:10
medical service is part of it. So your physician or your
23:13
physician visits, let's say, are covered by OHIP.
23:15
So it's like going to anything, any sort of healthcare in
23:21
Ontario, but someone's got to pay for the medication.
23:24
So you've got options, which is, you know, some people have
23:29
private insurance through work, some people work, but they don't
23:34
have private insurance. And those folks have to pay cash
23:36
for their medications. And then you have the ODB
23:39
formulary, which is for people who are Ontario Works or the
23:42
Ontario Disability Program. It's also Trillium drug benefits
23:47
or OHIP Plus, which is like for use, right.
23:52
So that's the Ontario, the provincial drug plan
23:55
essentially. And 80% of the people that are
24:02
on our O program access medication coverage through ODB,
24:06
the ODB formulary. It's it's huge.
24:09
It's important. Without that, nobody could
24:12
access treatment medications. Yeah.
24:16
OK, interesting. And so it just cuz yeah, I, I
24:20
don't meet a lot of people that have have been on the Suboxone.
24:23
It's mostly methadone really. Yeah, it's at least in my in my
24:28
circles that I've hung out with. But I guess.
24:31
So when you go to your doctor, there's an option to do both.
24:33
Is that kind of? Absolutely.
24:35
And the difference, the main difference is Suboxone.
24:38
This is coming from an addict, not a not a doctor or anything,
24:40
but you can get high off methadone.
24:43
You can't really get high off Suboxone.
24:44
Is that false or true? False.
24:47
OK, I guess let's define high. If you take enough of anything,
24:54
you can get high, I guess. So with methadone taking too
25:01
much methadone, if you take too much methadone, if your dose is
25:04
too high, you're going to feel sedated.
25:06
That's what high is going to look like.
25:08
It's going to be sedation or drowsiness.
25:11
Less so with Suboxone because it's only a partial agonist.
25:14
So they're two different kinds of molecules.
25:16
Methadone's a full new agonist and Suboxone or buprenorphine is
25:20
a partial agonist. So there's a ceiling effect.
25:24
It's actually has a better safety profile.
25:27
Very difficult to overdose on buprenorphine.
25:31
So it's it's a nicer safety profile for the patient, but
25:34
it's also a nicer safety profile for public safety.
25:39
So if it were, if it got into the wrong hands, it's far less
25:46
likely to have a negative impact if that makes the the methadone
25:52
because it's just stronger. Does that make sense?
25:54
Yeah, fair enough. Yeah.
25:56
And yeah, I mean, so you mentioned it a little bit, but
26:03
what do you think that we are doing well within this space
26:06
right now? And what do you think we could
26:09
improve on? Something that you would improve
26:11
on? I don't know.
26:18
I don't want to say we're not doing anything.
26:20
Well, I think that there are a lot of a lot of people trying
26:31
really hard to find safe evidence based by innovative
26:38
ways to mitigate this fentanyl or this toxic drug supply.
26:43
And I think it it's just such a priority for so many clinicians,
26:50
social workers, I mean, name it, anyone in the helping space is
26:53
trying to figure out what that looks like.
26:56
And it's our systems are so complicated.
27:01
So, you know, poverty, the housing and homelessness, all of
27:07
those things are make it so much more challenging.
27:11
And I think there's a political narrative right now that is
27:15
ignoring the evidence and around harm reduction and some of those
27:19
important things that are really difficult.
27:21
So what I what I like right now or think is going well as people
27:26
are aligning to try to protect those things and and not let
27:30
them be forgotten and, and try to move this forward.
27:34
If this were any other disease base, someone would have
27:37
invented a better medication, right?
27:40
But nobody cares about this disease base because of the
27:43
stigma associated with it. What do I wish we could do?
27:48
Better stigma, right? And we just it has to go away it
27:57
it never will I'm sure, but I think we need to keep raising it
28:01
in terms of everything to do with substance use and substance
28:07
use disorders. I don't think we ask for patient
28:14
or client feedback nearly enough.
28:17
Going back to that, remember you and I talked earlier about the
28:20
people that make decisions and policies and, and what do they
28:27
know, You know, and, and that's not to say that there aren't
28:30
lots and lots of really great smart folks working in this
28:33
space, But I don't think we engage the the people who want
28:38
or need or might be interested in the services enough to say
28:42
what should we be doing differently here?
28:45
Yeah, I mean, that's that's what I'm really focused on too, is
28:50
one of the things, one of the reasons I'm getting into this
28:52
field that excites me a lot is that I'll have a perspective
28:55
that and and that's not to say there are a lot of people in the
28:58
field that have lived the experience.
29:00
Absolutely. But yeah, I agree.
29:02
It's like like with any good organization, business company,
29:07
it has to be a democratic approach, right?
29:09
Like, what do you think? What do you think?
29:11
There's, there's, it never goes well if it's like this is the
29:15
way it has to be because this is the way we've always been doing
29:17
it. And I mean, people are dying
29:19
everyday, right? And it has to.
29:21
It has to stop, right? Absolutely.
29:23
So do you have any like stories or or cases specific clients
29:30
that you that have kind of stuck around with you over the years?
29:34
Yeah, so many. Sometimes it's, I think about of
29:42
the people I've known when you, when you hear what folks have
29:46
lived through, you know, really, really, really horrible
29:51
traumatic experiences. And yeah, there, there are so
29:58
many, but just sometimes it's just a feeling I think about
30:01
during the holidays, for example.
30:05
And, you know, a lot of people who are feeling isolated from
30:12
friends and family, maybe living in poverty, maybe not going to
30:16
be able to see their children if they have children, aren't able
30:20
to provide the Christmas that they want.
30:22
There's a lot of pressure, you know, around that.
30:26
It can be a really, really tough time for folks.
30:29
And those are the folks that come in, you know, during the
30:36
holiday season, excited and smiling with a with a handmade
30:41
card or spent their money on a, you know, a gift for the staff
30:49
to say thank you for taking care of me.
30:51
And I think, wow, we don't deserve this.
30:58
And in spite of, you know, all of the crap life's thrown at
31:02
you, you worth trying to be joyous and, and think about
31:09
other people during a time. Does that make sense?
31:13
Things like that are just so mind blowing to me.
31:17
Going back to the resilience that people have.
31:21
That's such just, it's, it's just a reminder everyday to be
31:24
so grateful to me. And I, I hope to everyone else
31:28
that has the privilege of, you know, getting to know these
31:31
folks and, and working and, and supporting these folks, we, we
31:37
have this thing in our organization.
31:38
It's, it, it sounds silly, but it, it's so meaningful.
31:42
We have a birthday card program. And so the goal is to give
31:47
everyone a a birthday card on their birthday or the day
31:51
closest to their birthday that we'll see them.
31:54
And people, people will call back.
31:59
I'll give someone their birthday card and they'll call back later
32:01
in that day and say it was the only thing I got.
32:03
They'll be tearful. It's the only thing I got.
32:06
And thank you so much. That meant so much to me.
32:08
Yeah, dude, we gave them a fucking card.
32:15
I mean, yeah, when you're when you're in that world, you feel
32:19
like nobody is thinking about you, right.
32:21
And so when somebody does something small like that, it's,
32:23
it's, it's the world. Yeah, I get it.
32:26
As you were talking there, I was thinking about, you know, before
32:30
I was got into this space of, of recovery counseling and
32:35
addiction counselor. I would always ask, not always,
32:38
but I would often ask. You know, you see so many people
32:41
over like the to the staff at, at the rehabs that I was at and
32:45
the nurses and you see so many tragic stories, right?
32:47
And a lot of them don't end well.
32:50
What, how do you keep going? Like what, what do you keep?
32:52
And I remember they would always say it's like, it's that success
32:54
story that, that, you know, one or two or three or four people
32:58
that succeed and they get through it and they come off
33:02
methadone. There was a guy in treatment
33:04
that I was with, we became very close.
33:06
He blind tapered off of methadone in treatment.
33:08
And we had this like huge celebration.
33:11
And I remember thinking at the time, I was like, I didn't
33:13
understand why it was such a big deal, but I had somebody explain
33:16
to me how how hard it was to get off.
33:19
And I've heard from every opiate I've ever talked to, they say
33:22
it's harder to get off methadone than heroin.
33:24
Like it's the hardest drug to kick.
33:26
And so for him to do that in treatment and it was a huge
33:28
deal. Right.
33:29
Absolutely. Absolutely.
33:30
That's what keeps keeps them going is those those success
33:33
stories, right? Yeah, yeah, I think it's the
33:37
same. I think too.
33:39
Like I worry about the word success.
33:43
Do you know what I mean by that? Because what is what some people
33:50
I think, feel really, really proud of and define as their own
33:54
personal success might not be your definition or my
33:58
definition. Subjective for.
34:00
Sure, right. And so I think that's just
34:04
always an important thing to keep top of mind.
34:07
But I think it's like what keep, I don't know what keeps
34:13
different people going. For me, it's that gratitude
34:17
piece, which is just like a feeling like it's a privilege to
34:21
get to to know people and how inspiring it is when despite
34:29
some of the biggest challenges, like I don't have a safe place
34:34
to live. And I've, you know, some bad
34:36
things have happened and there's all kinds of stress.
34:39
People are still like funny, like whole, you know what I
34:44
mean? The ability to laugh and, and be
34:47
humorous in spite of all of the, you know, that's so inspiring.
34:52
I think people are still so talented, right, in the face of
34:58
using talents like incredible artists and musicians and stuff,
35:04
you know, channelling pain and that sort of thing and producing
35:08
these amazing things. You don't want them to produce
35:11
these things 'cause it was so because they had painful
35:14
experiences. But that's inspiring, do you
35:17
know? Yeah.
35:19
There's a reason there's a lot of successful.
35:21
Again, I use that word. Tortured artist A.
35:23
Lot of yeah, tortured. Exactly.
35:25
Yeah, exactly. Anthony Kiedis is one that comes
35:27
to mind from Red Hot. Jar.
35:28
He's, I don't know if you've ever read his book, He.
35:31
I haven't. Is it good?
35:32
It's. Called scar tissue.
35:33
Yeah, I I know it. I read it in rehab and that guy,
35:38
the amount like every page I was reading in that book, it was
35:41
like, you know, and then I got clean and then I went to, you
35:43
know, I was doing this and that and I was helping guys.
35:45
And then I relapsed again. And it's just like, it happened
35:48
like 35 times in the book, and I'm reading it and I'm like this
35:51
mother, like he's so resilient. Yeah, a lot.
35:53
Of people don't like that word too, but I love it.
35:55
It's true. Resilient.
35:56
I know, I don't know, I like it, so I'm sorry if people don't
35:59
like. It that's true.
36:00
I mean, whenever I, you know, I don't know, spill my milk on the
36:04
floor or something and I, it throws off my whole day.
36:07
And then I think back to like, all the shit that I've been
36:09
through, right? It's like, what am I?
36:11
I know, to your point, the gratitude thing is like, someone
36:13
cuts me off in traffic and it ruins my whole day.
36:15
And then it's like, dude, you were homeless for a long time.
36:18
Like, I had nowhere to live and I couldn't stop using drugs.
36:21
I think you're gonna be OK. Yeah, I know, I know.
36:23
Is there a better? What word should we be using
36:26
instead of resilient? I don't have a better one.
36:29
No, it's, I will. Perseverant.
36:31
No. Not even.
36:32
Consistent Maybe, but. Strong, Yeah.
36:35
Strong instant. Yeah.
36:36
OK, I'll say that. When I was in my relapse my wife
36:41
bought me this bracelet that has it says strong on it in I guess
36:46
Morse code. Oh cool.
36:48
Yeah, that's so it's funny that you bring that up because she'd
36:51
always tell me it's like you're you're stronger than your
36:53
disease, right? Yeah, I find that it's just that
36:57
first step that is the hardest in my experience to get back, to
37:01
get sober, to get. It's like anything in life.
37:04
You know, I have to, there's a lot of help out there, right?
37:09
The wonderful people like you and and and CATC in your
37:11
organization. But I have to be, I have to put
37:15
my hand out. And then when someone puts their
37:16
hand back, it's like there's another.
37:18
You have to like take their hand, right?
37:20
It's I can't tell you how many times people reached out to me
37:23
when I was in my relapse and it was like, I just too ashamed,
37:26
too embarrassed, too sad to to just, yeah, take that step.
37:31
Yeah. What do I have to do?
37:32
What? Can I ask you a question?
37:35
Yeah. OK.
37:37
What for you like advice for people working in the field?
37:44
What are the little? What little things can help
37:47
remove feelings of shame? Because that's that's the big
37:51
one. It is right?
37:53
That's probably the biggest 1 and I agree, I'm a master of
37:56
feeling that emotion because I relapsed after 8 years.
38:00
I had eight years clean and sober.
38:01
And so the walk back to recovery, after all my friends
38:07
at the recovery community group that I was at, to be able to,
38:12
you know, the, the group that I was at too, we had to go around
38:15
and we celebrate like early sobriety dates.
38:17
And I'll never forget the day I had to raise my hand and say,
38:21
you know, Anthony, alcoholic, I have one day sober.
38:24
And I just started bawling my eyes out in front of this room
38:27
full of men. It was a men's group that I was
38:29
a part of and I'll never forget it.
38:31
They're, they just came up to me and all hugged me.
38:33
Like 16 different guys just came up and said, you know, so
38:38
advice, yeah, it's always a tough one because like we don't
38:44
do well with advice addicts. But when I, I will say this,
38:51
though, the hoop that you have to jump through is a lot wider
38:55
than you think. I would say is we think that
39:00
it's, I, I thought that coming back into recovery and doing it
39:05
all again, I thought that it was this mountain uphill in the snow
39:09
with booby traps and rain. And that's what kept me out
39:13
there for so long in my relapse. It's like it's too much work to,
39:16
to get back and it's really not. It's not, it's, it's a lot
39:20
easier than you think it is, but you have to be willing to take
39:23
that first step. And then when things crop up,
39:27
all those emotions that you've been burying down for so long,
39:31
to keep going through them like it in spite of them, right?
39:36
Because when you numb yourself for so long, the shame comes
39:39
back 30 times, right? I remember in this third
39:42
treatment center that I was in, my wife dropped me off.
39:46
I was a shell of a human. I remember I wasn't even like
39:48
taking in information. I was just so tired and and
39:51
strung out. The first night I was there.
39:54
It was the first night I in the treatment center, I had like a
39:56
panic attack from anxiety because I hadn't used for I had
40:01
detox for four days before that. So there was like the fifth day.
40:05
The first thought of my head was my wife, you know, died on the
40:08
way home. My mom died on the like, I
40:11
wouldn't know I'm in a treatment center how much?
40:12
And so all these things started like piling up and spinning in
40:16
my head. A long winded answer to that
40:18
question is whenever you have to talk about it, that's that's the
40:25
hardest part is whatever you're going through.
40:28
You have to talk about it. Whenever I work with new guys,
40:34
this is the hardest thing. But whenever I work with new
40:36
guys when, when I told them all the time when you have a
40:39
craving, when you wanna drink, when you wanna do drugs, pick up
40:43
the phone instead of a drink, right?
40:45
And who's gonna do that? You know, and like,
40:48
realistically, on paper, that is sounds like a horrible idea
40:52
because if I wanna drink, I'm gonna drink right?
40:54
Like it's. And I remember I used to laugh
40:56
when when my sponsor used to tell me that early on, but it
41:01
worked like I started to do it. I started to when I even that
41:04
littlest inkling of, oh, I thought about cocaine today.
41:07
I got to tell, I got to I got to get this out because it's going
41:10
to keep me alive. Right.
41:13
So with regards to shame, it's it's usually secrets keep us
41:16
sick. We're only as sick as our, as
41:18
our secrets is a common one that I hear.
41:21
Anytime I had a secret, I relapsed.
41:22
It was. It was only a matter of time
41:24
because 1 secret leads into more lies and then you're spinning up
41:28
this whole story and then you're not telling the truth about
41:31
anything, right? Yeah.
41:33
Yeah, I don't know if that answered it, but.
41:37
It's just yeah, yeah. It's a tough one.
41:39
Right. Well, it's a hard question.
41:41
It's a hard question because I think that's I think it that's a
41:45
that's a big challenge. And I don't know that there's
41:47
just one answer, but when, when someone is isolating because of
41:54
that shame, you know what I mean, How, what little ends or
42:01
we know how, how can you kind of get, I think that's a tough one
42:06
for, for folks, you know, I think it's particularly hard for
42:10
friends and family, you know? I absolutely, yeah.
42:14
I'm just thinking about because you asked me about to from the
42:19
to the social worker or advice to somebody helping someone.
42:24
Yeah, yeah. And I just realized that I
42:27
answered it from an addict's perspective.
42:29
But that's kind of what I wanted to do.
42:31
OK, great. Because yeah, it's like, what
42:36
can you do? But what can you do?
42:37
When to help? Sort of level out the shame from
42:43
from an addict, right Yeah yeah. You can't be judge mental.
42:48
I would say the the best thing my wife ever did was whenever I
42:51
told her I relapsed or whenever I told her I was having a rough
42:54
day. There were at no point in time
42:55
was she like, are you fucking kidding me?
42:57
What's wrong with you? You know what will happen if you
43:00
use like there was no there was none of that language.
43:03
And so it it opened up a safe space for me to share going
43:06
forward Yeah. So that would be my answer.
43:08
It's like we have to create a non judgmental safe environment
43:13
where it's like you can tell me anything and the worst I'm gonna
43:15
do is, is laugh at it. That's like the worst I'm gonna
43:18
do because it's funny. It's funny that you're having
43:21
thoughts about using a drug that almost killed you.
43:23
It's it's kind of funny, right? But I'm, I'm not gonna judge you
43:26
for it. We're gonna laugh at it together
43:28
and realize that, you know, I'm an addict and these thoughts are
43:30
gonna come up. It's it's normal.
43:32
It's totally normal to be thinking about drugs when you're
43:34
not using drugs. It's.
43:35
What? You've been doing your whole
43:36
life. I thought you raised a good
43:39
point because I think I think some, when people are working in
43:44
the space, you know, whatever the role is, there's this desire
43:53
to want to fix things and tell people, tell people how they're
43:57
going to fix things, which I also think can contribute to, I
44:02
think that can be perceived as judgements and it's really,
44:06
really hard. It's a great point.
44:08
Keep your mouth shut. Yeah, it's a great point.
44:09
Right. When someone, if someone willing
44:11
to tell you something, just just listen.
44:13
Just listening, right? That is a great.
44:16
Point. Sometimes all you can do is just
44:18
listen. Just be there.
44:19
Yeah, No. Comments needed.
44:21
I struggle with that so much. Well, we.
44:23
All do. Most of the time people just
44:25
want you to be there and. And yeah, that you're listening.
44:28
I know a lot of people, I think especially around grief, things
44:34
like things to do with grief, people like, I don't know what
44:37
to say. I'm so uncomfortable with grief.
44:38
I don't know what to say. Don't say anything.
44:40
You don't have to say anything. You're just holding the space,
44:45
you know, or you know, that's kind of the thing people don't
44:48
like to say anymore either. But you're, you're literally
44:50
just listening and being there. That's it.
44:52
That's all you got to do. People don't like that holding
44:55
the space. I've heard people say why do
44:57
you? Why?
44:57
What does that mean? Yeah, holding space.
45:00
You're allowing silence. Yeah, you're, you're being
45:03
comfortable and the uncomfortable.
45:04
Yeah, but a lot of people aren't comfortable with silence, right?
45:07
But don't like just this need to tell people how to fix things,
45:12
say stupid things like whatever inspirational like that.
45:16
That's not needed right now. And to your point, actually,
45:19
it's like when I, yeah, if if you're not doing things this way
45:24
now, you've failed, right? That's kind of the way I look at
45:26
it. And it's like.
45:27
This is the way to get sober and you either do it or you don't,
45:33
right? I've been guilty of that for
45:34
sure. It's like telling people this is
45:36
the. Way to I think we all have.
45:38
And yeah, it's like when I don't meet up to that expectation now,
45:43
I don't feel, yeah. I'm that's where the you, you
45:45
feel judged. Yeah.
45:47
I failed. Yeah, in my mind.
45:48
Yeah. I don't think we asked enough
45:50
either. Like what do you want to do?
45:53
And it's it's like you should do this instead of what do you want
45:56
to do? What do you want to do now you
45:58
know? Yeah, what what do you think
46:01
would I mean, that's why these open-ended motivational
46:03
interviewing is a great one, right?
46:04
Like 100%. What do you think would happen
46:06
if you went to rehab today? Like like, what do you think?
46:09
What do you think would happen? What's the worst thing that
46:10
would happen? And then it gets people thinking
46:12
like, you know, I'd be away for 30 days.
46:16
I live, hopefully I lived at 85 S 30 days is probably .058008%
46:22
of my life. These are all things that I'm
46:24
saying now, but I laughed at because when I was in treatment
46:27
for 60 days, it, it felt like an eternity.
46:29
It really did. Rehab is not fun.
46:33
Nobody wants to go to rehab. Actually, I've met some people
46:35
that have had a good experience, like like they've, they've
46:37
enjoyed it. Right.
46:40
I think it. I think it's scary for folk.
46:42
Yeah, I think what's also scary, I mean, I don't know how you
46:46
felt about this, but I've I've had situations in my life I
46:50
remember thinking, I don't I don't know how I'll ever laugh
46:55
again or have fun again without alcohol or with, you know,
47:01
without whatever it is. And then I think that just that
47:06
thinking is it's let alone going away for 30 days and having to
47:11
follow some rules and engage with folks you don't maybe
47:14
didn't you know all those things, but just that, that.
47:17
Yeah. But just that whole what?
47:20
Who am I without that? And how will I laugh or be happy
47:26
or smile or feel good is, I think, just so terrifying.
47:29
The best advice I ever got to that one and like this one
47:33
actually worked for me every time.
47:34
It still does. I came into, when I first came
47:36
into recovery, it was how am I not going to have a drink on my
47:40
wedding day? Like that was my thing.
47:42
It was like, I'm 23, you're like, cocaine's a problem.
47:45
I get it, Alcohol. Now you're telling me that I
47:48
can't have that either and I might be an alcoholic.
47:51
That was a huge one to wrap my head around.
47:53
And I find with a lot of drug addicted people, that's a big
47:57
one to wrap their head around. The best advice I ever got was,
47:59
dude, just don't drink today. You know, just get to bed sober
48:02
today and then tomorrow do it again.
48:05
But don't even think about that. Right.
48:07
Today and I've, I've often told people this that I've worked
48:10
with and it it's they, they seem to like, you know, I use it.
48:14
It's like sometimes I got to break up my day.
48:16
Just don't drink for the next 15 minutes.
48:17
Like, you know, there I tell people sometimes to write down
48:21
15 minutes, check made it to 15 minutes, another 15 minute.
48:25
Like that's what I had to a lot of people have to do that early
48:27
on because I can't see past 15 minutes right now.
48:30
I want to do drugs. That's all I know.
48:34
Yeah, absolutely. So in your opinion, what do you
48:41
think the people that that achieve long term sobriety?
48:46
So maybe past the year or yeah, I'd say probably past the year.
48:50
Some people disagree with that, but I think a lot of people
48:52
relapse in the first year. It's it's common.
48:55
What do you think works? What do you think those people
48:59
do that that helped them achieve that long term sobriety?
49:05
Listen, I think people, I don't know, I, I think that some
49:16
people are a little bit more fortunate to have a, a support
49:20
system. Like, you know, you mentioned
49:23
your wife and at no point did she ever say, you know, make you
49:28
feel judged or she wasn't angry, whatever that looks like.
49:32
I don't know that everyone's that fortunate.
49:35
So I think that support system is important.
49:38
I think having to go through this alone, go through those
49:41
things alone or with the opposite of the support system.
49:45
Some people are living in a pressure cooker.
49:47
Throwing rocks and. Stuff, right?
49:48
You know, I think that's really, really hard.
49:52
I think it's hard for folks because a lot of the time, and I
49:55
don't know what your experience was like, but the, the change
50:00
isn't just around the substance and leaving the substance
50:03
behind. You're leaving a lot of other
50:05
things behind too, right? That group of friends, that
50:08
lifestyle, that that's a lot of changes.
50:12
And I think how people's ability to fill those those things with
50:20
other things can be more difficult.
50:23
I don't even know if I'm answering your question, but do
50:25
you understand what I mean? I'm happy that you went on that
50:28
sort of direction because, yeah, I think support system for
50:31
family is probably what I see most.
50:34
Yeah. And filling your time with
50:37
passions and hobbies. Yeah.
50:38
You know what the tricky thing about that is?
50:41
It takes time to know even what those are because your passion
50:44
for so long was going to the bar and drinking or or shooting up
50:48
or snorting, whatever. Yeah, and when you, if you did
50:51
have something you were interested in, you were fucking
50:53
hungover or whatever to do it. And yeah.
50:55
Like you lost complete interest 100%.
50:57
So it it takes time to even get to that place.
51:01
And then when you get there, it's like, well, what am I going
51:04
to do? Go for a walk every day?
51:05
I don't want to do that, but that helps me.
51:08
Honestly, it's just my own in nature.
51:11
That's one of my passions, right?
51:12
Doing things, you know, my wife and I, we do a lot of things
51:15
outside, not as much as we used to.
51:16
I mean, it's also not as warm, but the ability to just be
51:20
present in nature, it helps a lot.
51:23
Huge. Yeah, absolutely.
51:35
Let's let's end with this, OK? What would you say to an
51:44
addiction professional that's just starting out in the field?
51:48
Like what, What? Or maybe what's the best piece
51:50
of advice you got? I don't know that I didn't, I
51:54
don't, I don't want to say I didn't get good professional
51:57
advice because they did. I had a lot of great teachers
51:59
and mentors and clinicians that I've worked with.
52:02
But I'm going to repeat something I said earlier.
52:08
The shut up and listen piece is so I think is so important.
52:15
So I think for anyone starting out, you know, in whatever space
52:18
they're looking for and listen, sometimes it's your job to
52:22
educate folks or it's your job to teach them new skills or that
52:26
sort of thing. But I think depending on, you
52:30
know, who you're working with and in what capacity, just
52:32
having the ability to to just listen and not feel this need to
52:37
always tell people what to do, what their solution is, is
52:40
really, really important. Does that make sense?
52:46
I know, I'm sorry, it's not very profound.
52:49
No, it's pretty. I mean, it's, but it's true.
52:50
And I think asking the right questions goes along with that
52:53
too, because my first thought is I've met a lot of people that
52:57
are trying to get clean and sober that can't they don't want
52:59
to put a sentence together, right?
53:00
They're just so in their head that it's like, what am I
53:03
supposed to do? Just sit with them for an hour,
53:04
right? That's my first thought.
53:06
But maybe, maybe, maybe, yeah, maybe they haven't had someone
53:10
sit with them for an. Hour.
53:11
Yeah. Ever.
53:12
Absolutely. So maybe that's what's, you
53:14
know, get out of your own way and get out of your own.
53:16
Come ahead and just into their world.
53:18
And yeah, I I agree. It's like we can always ask more
53:21
questions and. Open-ended questions.
53:23
And yeah, the other, I'll say one more thing and again it's
53:26
not very profound, but don't take anything personally right
53:34
in. I think probably in every
53:37
career, but especially in helping fields, people have a
53:39
tendency to take things personally.
53:45
And not everyone is at their best, right?
53:48
If they're, you know, using substances, trying to quit using
53:51
substances, whatever that newly not using substances.
53:56
Not everyone's at their best no matter what, even if they don't
53:58
use substances, but but just not not taking certain interactions
54:02
personally because it's literally not about you.
54:06
It's never about you. Does that make sense?
54:09
Robin Williams said. Everyone's walking around with
54:13
everyone's walking around fighting a battle you know
54:15
nothing about, right? Like everybody.
54:18
Everybody. Absolutely.
54:20
It's just good life advice. Yeah, it's true.
54:22
It's true. I don't.
54:23
Think things personally, if people wanna get sober, where
54:27
can they go for to get in touch with CATC?
54:32
How does that process? What does that process look?
54:34
Like we actually have a pretty cool process.
54:35
So we have a website CTC, but we have a like a toll free number
54:43
and anyone can call and just ask a question, feel things out.
54:51
If people don't want to talk on the phone, we can text them
54:53
back. Some people, some people don't
54:56
want to talk, right. Texting is a little bit more
54:58
comfy. Some people don't even have the
55:00
ability to, to dial A phone, you know, without a phone plan.
55:04
But I think the other thing is that if, if you make that call
55:08
and then you're, you're, you want some help with something we
55:11
can't help you with, we'll point you in the right direction.
55:15
If that makes sense. We'll, we'll figure it, we'll
55:17
help you figure it out. You know, so it's just, it's
55:20
just literally 1 phone call or one e-mail.
55:22
And we can, we can help people start the conversation in
55:26
whatever way that's the most comfortable for them.
55:29
Love it. One of the things that
55:30
frustrates me the most is when I hear I don't have money to get
55:33
sober. Right.
55:35
There's so many free resources in Ontario and Canada.
55:38
Ram Clinics is one of them just off.
55:39
The 100%. So many that are covered, you
55:43
just got to do some more research.
55:44
Or to your point, ask, right? Don't be ashamed.
55:47
Like if you don't have money to do said rehab, said program,
55:50
whatever, private, anything like that.
55:53
Like a lot of people don't, you know what I mean?
55:54
Don't. I don't have.
55:56
I don't. Have that money, it's like,
55:57
you're OK, man. Like a lot of people don't have
55:59
money to go to food. Nobody has a rehab fund.
56:03
But we make it work, right? Yeah, there's other ways around.
56:06
It absolutely. Don't let that hold you back.
56:08
Is. What I yeah, I think the nice
56:10
thing with like a phone call or e-mail is you can, you can just
56:14
start out anonymously, right? You can just sort of like ease
56:16
into it if you're feeling like you just want to ask a few
56:19
questions without saying hi, my name is so and so from, you
56:25
know, it's just. I work at yeah.
56:27
Just ask some questions. Don't tell my boss.
56:28
Yeah, exactly. I love it.
56:30
Thanks so much Kate for coming down every time.
56:33
I appreciate it and I look forward to chatting again soon.
56:35
Thank you, thank you. Thanks for listening.
56:38
Please help us grow the channel and like, share, and subscribe
56:41
for more content. The discussions and stories
56:43
shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational
56:46
purposes only. This content is not a substitute
56:50
for professional medical advice, addiction treatment, or therapy.
56:53
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction,
56:56
please consult the licensed physician, addiction specialist,
56:59
or mental health professional. You are no longer alone.