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Revisiting Downton: An Enneagram Stroll Through the Abbey (Part One) · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey friend, I want to invite you to pour a cup of tea with me and join me for a wholehearted stroll back to 2019 when my youngest sister Annalise and I first sat down to type the Crawlies and the unforgettable Downton Abbey staff through the lens of the Enneagram.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Now, you're gonna hear lots of giggles, and there are some outdated character analysis, because remember, this was before the first movie came out, and also before I rewatched the series with my oldest daughter Paige.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: But you're going to hear a love for both the Enneagram and British drama.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: I believe, especially because this conversation was six years ago, I think we uncover what makes these characters so timeless and why we're so excited for the third installment of the Downton Abbey movies.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: So now I'm sharing this conversation again with you years later.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Annalise is expecting her first baby, so it just happens that we're going to be together again to celebrate this baby and an opportunity to head to the theater to see the third Downton Abbey film on opening weekend.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: This revisit of this conversation truly feels like a perfect full circle moment.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: And it brings a lot of delight to my heart.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping you will share in that with me.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Of course, as you listen, I want you to take notice.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Take notice that in these fictional characters, you can observe the roles of the victim, the villain, the hero, and even the guide emerge.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like in your own story.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: The crawlies and their staff carry the tensions of pain, pride, courage, and transformation.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Again, some of the guesses that we have today are maybe a little outdated or without the full story we know now, but I really believe the heart of the narrative and the characters still rings true.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: So pour a cup of tea and step back into the grandeur of Downton Abbey.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: And part one of our Enneagram conversation.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: You have a passion and a love not only for our Downton Abbey people, characters.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: I really have you to blame.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: So that show.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: I remember, I remember I was like, I was ahead of the crowd because you weren't.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: I watched the very early adapter episode on the opening, like the airing night.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: Did you soon?
2:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Whoa, look at you.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: That's something you talk about.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: I know.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Now's your glory moment.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: I was cool.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Now it's done.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: No, you're so cool because now you get to talk with me about their Aneagram types, which I think is so fitting.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Because not only were you the like trendsetter and early adapter, and you watched John Abbey and hooked me into it, but you are a theater person yourself.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: So you really you love the production.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: You're producing, you've written, and you're a part of directing and helping produce a play there in Colorado Springs.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: So you've been involved in a lot of stage and theater production.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: So you really love it.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: So why do you think the Enneagram is helpful in light of that?
3:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I it's been a newer revelation for me of realizing the beauty of, especially if, say, if you're per performing and you're playing a character within an on-stage piece, or even just even reading, I think fiction can bring this to light of the why.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Because often directors will say, why, what's the why behind your character?
3:50
SPEAKER_00: What's the motivation?
3:51
SPEAKER_00: And it can be hard to sometimes separate yourself as your real person to what you're portraying on stage because it could be a completely opposite character.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I often get the extreme honor and challenge of playing people that are completely different than my experience, real person.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: You've been villainous sometimes, dare we say?
4:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, which is not like it's true.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: I know.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: I hope not.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Um but I think um someone tried to say that I was being typecast, and I was like, I think you misunderstand that word, being typecast meaning like I am that person in real life and I'm not.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: It's just that I'm frequently get casts those roles because I can do them quite well because they're they are fun.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: I will say that.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: And I say that in all humility.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: There is something she does, dude, amazingly.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: No shame in saying that.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: But I was thinking on how, wow, I'm as I'm directing and starting to direct this next show, I'm like, man, I wish everyone was fluent in the Enneagram world because it could speak so well to helping find motivations of the why behind characters and what they're doing and bringing to life another three-dimensional character and human being to life on stage that is a little maybe a little bit of themselves, and maybe they can really relate to the character they're playing, right?
5:11
SPEAKER_00: But it can help give a further depth and a motivation to that why.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: And so when you're talking about doing this for Downton Abbey, of course I squealed with delight a little bit.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then and I was like, maybe should I do it in a British accent?
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Then I thought my lovely friends in England who listen to your podcast quite regularly might have a really good chuckle when they listen to them.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: They're like, they'll be like, oh no, that's not how we sound.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like then I can.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: We all yeah, you sound great, and we want you to talk to us that way all the time.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: It would be quite lovely.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so I just find it fascinating.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: And so then putting on that lens of, oh, what are these characters in Downton that we also love and also love to hate or hate to love?
5:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that we see sometimes we get frustrated and we get pulled in in any TV show where there's some times where we're like, oh, that's so frustrating.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: We see what they're doing wrong, we could see what they could prevent the outcome of what they're facing.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: If only they would do what we would do.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: And I think they're such fun.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: And it brings, of course, it's not, it's avoiding trying to make the Enneagram a caricature aspect because it's not, but it does perhaps hopefully maybe put a lens on people who are trying to discover who they what they lead with, what number they lead with.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: Maybe assessing it and putting in the framework of a fiction piece, whether it's books, whether it's a movie, whether it's a TV show, and maybe it would help them highlight of oh, yeah, that's why I relate with that character.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: There's some of these aspects of it.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm excited.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the plan is where we're gonna go with this.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: I gave you the why behind why we thought it's worthwhile doing this, not just to characterize, but because it is fun to see yourself through the lens of a character that you love, and also maybe help you understand why you're drawn to those characters, why you find yourself rooting for them.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're mirrored in a sibling that you really are close to, a parent that you're close to, your spouse or a friend.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh yeah, that's the connection.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, because we each type is drawn uniquely to the other type.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: So we have to disclaimer in all of this.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: As we go through all these types, we're just going off lines and how they're portrayed.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: And let's just say a lot of these characters are not on the very healthy side of being in grandson.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: They're definitely going into the disintegration of stress and unhealth.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: Maybe some of them are moderate, maybe they have really healthy moments.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I do think if you just need Jesus and life will be better.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: If they all had Jesus and the gospel message, they would be have integrated to their full best selves and not be wearing the mask anymore there any grain of time.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: All would be good.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: So take this all with a grain of salt, with a little bit of humor, and really just I'm just grateful to have you all join in this conversation as we share the anticipation of a really great movie coming out September 20th, Downton Abbey.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: Is there an official name?
8:20
SPEAKER_00: I haven't even paid attention.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: It's just Down Abbey.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: I haven't, right?
8:24
SPEAKER_00: I yeah, okay I haven't seen.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: I've only just seen the official trailer.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember seeing an actual movie.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully this will just whet people's appetites.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: To either start binge watching all season, which is on Amazon Prime for free.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: It is, just so you know.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: Re-rewatching them.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, me too.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: You and me both.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we're gonna start from Aneagram 8 and we're gonna work our way through clockwise because that's how we do it.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: And Aneagram 8s, let's just say we love you, and there happens to be a lot of Anneagram 8s to talk about in Down Abbey, interestingly enough.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and to preface two, in order to try to keep this relatively digestible, we're gonna highlight three characters that we think are in each Anneagram type.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: Ana Elise has permission to disagree because she hasn't seen this final list at all.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: I will try.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: She is the dependent type too.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: So she may not totally or she might very nicely and sweetly disagree with me.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Um too.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: But we'll probably maybe give a quick highlight to as to one of the characters or two, a scene or something that makes us think this, then just have fun with it and talk, share with your friends and have fun talking about it, or tell us why you don't agree with us on the socials, and we'll be we're open to suggestions.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: So no offense here.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: It's just all fun.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: For sure.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Anneagram eight.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: I've got my top three here.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: What do you think they're gonna be?
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Just curious.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: I think they're gonna be the Dowager Countess, Lady Violet, who's the grandmother.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes, ding.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Mary.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes, the eldest of the three daughters, Lady Mary.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: And then potentially, and I oscillated on this one, but I think Tom, who married Lady Sybil, who was originally started off as the chauffeur.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: You got, hey, right on all three of them.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Yay! Yeah, can we just say we love Lady Violet?
10:26
SPEAKER_00: She's she just she's probably great, I think the best character, the most quotable, if nothing else.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, one of the quotes that I thought of was I just listened the other day was why does every day involve a fight with an American?
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: But like she took such great delight in saying it.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Like it wins her joy.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: It's just like, yes.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: I I will fight you and I will win.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: With my superior intellect.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And then I think Mary and Tom to contrast them, again, Tom the chauffeur, who ends up marrying Lady Sybil, and then Lady Mary, who's I think she's in every single show, every single episode.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Talk about I think this is where Lady Mary shows a really immature version, an unhealthy version of a type eight, who is incredibly assertive and challenging, not only of the tradition of her day, her family system, but then you see the unhealthy peace play into, especially towards Edith, her sister, who we'll talk about more later.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: So there's some sad things, and then you also see her sabotage her own happiness repeatedly.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you're like, no, it's like a slow mo, no, yes.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: And you come to grow, you always love her, but there's times that you get super frustrated.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Then whereas Tom, who he has his immature foolish moments at the very beginning in season one, really before or as he's winning Sybil's heart, but you love him, like grief, tragedy, and loss shapes his character in a way that leads him to a ton of maturity.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: And especially throughout season six, you like that's the right last season, right?
12:10
SPEAKER_00: Season six.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Where he's constantly challenging Lady Mary in a way that you're like, Yes, keep on, Tom.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: You tell her, and yeah, he doesn't back down.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: And he used to use his like challenger towards the system and everything, but then you see him use it in a way that's helpful to others, which I think is interesting.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: Because such huge growth, because he was against this idea of aristocrat oh I almost said aristocrats, aristocrats, like the upper class totally wrong movie of the system of the politics and equal rights and everything with that, but then that maturity and channeling that of recognizing that loyalty that AIDS are so amazingly loyal.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: I know they're not the loyalist, but they are passionate when they love someone and they really love their whole person.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is an amazing quality of them.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: They're fiery and passionate people, and they are gonna take a stand, which is important.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: And he's the perfect one to take his sister-in-law on to get her into health and focus on that.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: I think Mary's healthiest season was technically season two during World War I think it was.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: Yep, where she's recognizing the error of her ways from season one and the influence and consequences that end up causing the strife and heartache that she's facing, but then the maturity of just the era and of course being in war.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: But I think season two, season three were probably some of her healthiest.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: She figured out what mattered most and what to fight about, where to put her energy.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: She and Edith, I don't know if they ever had really full lovely relationship.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: I am sort of like we'll see what happens with the movie.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you too.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna go watch and enjoy.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: I do one of the one of the quotes real quickly on Mary was I she said, I'd never marry any man I was told to.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: I would hate to admit that I'm stubborn, but I am.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: So it just shows that yeah, I hate to admit that I'm stubborn, but I am, and I'm not gonna do what other people tell me to do.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, hold my own.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: That is a perfect quote for her.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna definitely highlight some of these quotes in the people on Instagram this week.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Following up, yeah, we're gonna share some of those and so it shows us why.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: I feel like we should be getting some kickback from series to promote it.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Hello.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: This is all just from the goodness of our hearts.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: So true, and just a passion excitement for the movie.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: It is okay.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: So now we're gonna talk about our Enneagream nines.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I actually had a ton of fun with this because I didn't go into making my list thinking who was gonna be on it.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: I but as I was making it, I was like, oh my gosh, these, yes, I think these are exactly who these nines are.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious to to find out if you have any idea.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: Again, I mean, yeah, my top one.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious what you say, but for sure, Anna.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: Hands down, yep, Anna.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Which I'm thinking she has a wing eight because she can be charge.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: So Anna, who else did you put?
15:15
SPEAKER_00: I put Matthew Crawley.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Oh, duh.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: Hands down now.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: Who we're all still madly in love with, and I don't know if any of us have gotten over the fact that he is no longer a part of it.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: He and Anna, some of the best nines on the show, hands down.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they brought the peace to the room, to the sanity, to the situations for sure.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: And he also just had this way of carrying himself that, and I'm so biased because I'm married to a nine, but you're allowed to be.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: This is where the withdrawing type really displays itself.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: But he didn't need anybody else to affirm him or to show him where his place was in the world.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: He just wanted to bring his presence where he thought it was mattered, which why it was difficult to find.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: Why does it matter here in this estate and with these people and all those sort of stuff?
16:22
SPEAKER_00: He was comfortable in the position that he had.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, that he just he brought Lady Mary down.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: We all saw, I think, a lot of her growth and transition and transformation happen because of her relationship with Matthew, which is why we're all still grieving because yeah, thankfully, Thomas stepped in, but still so aggravating.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: I remember yelling at the TV.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did too.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: You can't do that.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: Terrible.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: It was so terrible.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: Dan Stevens has to be just an amazing actor and has to have like other amazing, fantastic opportunities.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So whatever.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: I know, whatever.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: You can have them.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: We'll take our first few seasons and watch them over and over again.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay, the last one is newer, but but I think it was worth miss mentioning because she plays a larger role near the end and is for sure in the movie, and that is Phyllis Baxter, who is Cora's maid.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: And she's also befriending Mosley through the last season.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh I think even just that sense of nine's at their best.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: They're receptive, they're diplomatic, they're open-minded, they're very, they're just pleasant.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Bring that essence with them to any kind of again, at their best, any situation.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: But they also they can be the stubborn, they can be forgetful, they can be apathetic a little bit.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: And I think you can definitely see that within just her person.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: She's probably one of the healthiest of the nines of the three, yeah.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Just the way she relates to as obviously Mosley, like you said, and bringing him out and drawing him out.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes, almost empowering him in a really tender way that I think is a really sweet, which is fun.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad they kept Mosley in it for a while.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: It seemed like he wasn't, he was a character that was going nowhere.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: And but actually that takes us to type one.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: So yes, so I let the cat out of the bag here.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: So one of the type ones that I had said was Mosley.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: And one of the quotes from that last season as well was when he is about to go teach.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: And his quote was, if you expect a lot, you'll get a lot.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: And I just thought that was kind of a classic caricature of a type one of hey, if you expect a lot, you're gonna get a lot, which unfortunately isn't always true.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: It was not his experience, which is why you need Phyllis Baxter.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes, he does.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: He so does.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of ones on the show.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and maybe, and I was weighing it through as I've been re-watching the series of it's of course time and era and culture play into it.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Of you have the different levels and stations of people in the upper class, middle class, upstairs, downstairs.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I wonder how much that influences it too.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: How much is it innate or how much is it due to their station in life and the need?
19:19
SPEAKER_00: Because to me, Mrs.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: Hughes, oh yes, yeah.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: I'll have to tell her tell you where I put her later.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: I didn't put her in type one, but I really because I marked her for later too, because I was like, I could see her as a perfectionist in just her sense of justice and duty and her expectations.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Of sometimes she might not agree, but because she's signed on on the dotted line for this, I could see her being that perfectionist.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: And and maybe you can you might argue this with me of Lord Grantham, the dad.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: Actually, no, I put him as a type one.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: I went back at he and Mrs.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: Hughes were my hardest ones when you look over his character, but I would put him as a one-wing nine.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: One nine, yes, because he did not prefer to act on the justice or act on his even ideas of pert perfection or idealism, but he certainly had them and he he held himself to that standard.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: But one of the times, too, you see him hold it to John Bates back.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: I think that was season one, maybe season two, but when John Bates is struggling but won't and is actually protecting someone but won't tell him.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, Lord Robert is fiery mad and goes ahead and doesn't take the peaceful side of things or defend him.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he goes ahead and fires him and of course regrets it later.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: But I think those were one of those times that made me think, oh yeah, he's normally he's a one-winged nine, but that was the time that he went ahead and like full-on won and one demanded perfection without waiting to hear the explanation or believing the best.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: And also, even just the tradition, like he has standards, he has this huge estate that it's not just like a name, but he believes in almost like the calling of it and the purpose of it, and battling with having the change of times as the seasons progress and having to change with it and the reality of the financial situation, but also needing to take care of also your employees and the rightness of that and making sure not just your family, but several families' livelihoods, which was a huge deal.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the last one, and again, this one I really debated too.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: This actually was my top three hardest one, and that is Mr.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Carson.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I because I put Carson down too, but I also thought of him as another.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking of a five.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: That's what I was going back and forth on the one and the five.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh huh.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: So what because I can see him being really, I don't know, because he's very studious and he I feel like he's more in his head than necessarily in his gut.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: And so that's where I could see the motivation of his character going.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: More in the head than leaning towards uh more of a guttural instinct.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like he could wing six because he's so loyal, especially to Lady Mary.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Incredibly loyal.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: So loyal to the family and wanting to do things by the book and has very low tolerance for shenanigans.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: So low tolerance.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I went back and forth between the one and the five.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: Because he's got this standard, which might in fact more mirror his upstairs leader, like where he would have to somehow adapt to those one qualities because that was the demand of the household and the estate that he had to follow through on any level, essentially, and in his own character.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: But you I totally agree with you.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: I really was torn between the one and five.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: So this is one that I'll be excited to hear from others.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Is he a one and five?
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I lean more towards the five.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: That's my vote.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's great.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: And then for the record, who else would you throw on the ones?
22:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: Who you had?
22:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I don't think those are like my top two were Mrs.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Hughes.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are and where she falls.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: And then, like, Lord grant them.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: True two.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: I went ahead and landed Mrs.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: Hughes as a type two.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Of course, Lady Sybil, our all-time favorite.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And again, why do tragedy?
23:21
SPEAKER_00: Why does it have to befall the twos?
23:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: I may not know.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: And at first, when I thought through it, because I was like, maybe she's a three.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: She can be, she can pace her own.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: But then as it's like, the more and more I thought, yeah, she is.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: I one of the quotes, even of her, it's doing nothing, that's the enemy.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: That is totally the one that I was thinking of.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: And I think season two in particular, where she finds her identity in this purpose and serving others and helping others and how she was born to play that part as far as family.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: Her parents even see that.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Like she was made to do this nursing, even though they fought against her doing it.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And I even think about that goodbye, the tearful goodbye, when everyone's sending her off to school for training for nursing.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the moment when her mom is watching her in the kitchen and watching her learn how to cook and do that for herself.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: And just some moments like that.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh yeah, she's totally a two and everyone sees it.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: And she even like, I was thinking on how she makes she makes it a way for one of the maids to get a job as a secretary.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: She does she totally pens the rules.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: She totally pens the rules to make it happen.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: The sweet Gwen.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's that's such a fun.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: That was fun, a really fun little story in there.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Mrs.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Hughes, Sybil, and then Isabel Crawley.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Crawley.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: And talk about that one.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: And what she gets herself into so much trouble.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Can I just help too much?
24:58
SPEAKER_00: She has no boundaries.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: She needs to mature in this.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: But she all the more because it she and Lady Violet, yes, the grandmother.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: They can go head to head.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: And in stress, twos go to eights.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think you can have a lot of clashing.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: But then in health can totally access the two.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: So there's those little glimpses at times when both of them do get on because they're able to really cross those paths for the understanding.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Fight for the same thing.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: At the end, they're fighting for both Matthew and Mary to get together.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Like they're on the same page with that.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like a sweet moment where those lines intersect, and you're like, it can work.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Finally.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: But then definitely their little spats and stuff with the hospital and through the World War One, just all of that.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh, so many things.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: Between all the characters, they those two probably have some of the best one-liners.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: They do.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Or just little quips that the authors, the writers of the show have must have just their favorite because they truly give them some of the greatest lines.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: And it's probably also the skill of the actresses because it just is the spiritual like magic delivery.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: You just can't so dry.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: She's so great.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I would say I would agree hands down.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: Those are I could see Mrs.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Hughes.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Now, what really tipped you off for Mrs.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: Hughes?
26:23
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
26:23
SPEAKER_00: I've gone back and forth and circled around her a few times, but part of it was her consistency, and that's why I even toyed with the six.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: I've I felt for sure she was a dependent type.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: So I put her either as a one, a two, or six.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: It's in the dependent stance because she this steady undercurrent of so many characters, so many of the storylines, but she's helping, and I don't think I wrote her name down because she's one I didn't have time for.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: But remember the one maid who ends up getting pregnant.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: So she really goes to bat for her to help her get the grandparents involved with the baby and support and all that.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Just that's one of the many things where again it would take a two being more assertive and tapping into the growth line of the eight to not only want to help, but to force something to happen in it.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, for sure, I put her in the dependence dance, which again, the one to the six was all I was leaning on there.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: But she just is the steady helper, and even that her role with Mr.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Carson.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Again, whether he's a one or a five, I didn't feel like they were the same types for sure.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: But their character, she really came in and supported him and made him a better version of himself.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: And that's true.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: And also was a bolder version of the two or a bolder character in how she would really handle him for lack of a better term.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: She does seem more in to connect more with her heart, potentially.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: I could see that.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: So having that then at the in the heart triad, then that two would support that.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: She even chose her role in the first season, her role over romance.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: Remember how this long-lost love pursued her for a little bit and she toyed with that idea, but in the end, she chooses to stay on.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: And of course, she has her own happy ending later on.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: But it took five seasons.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: So like another five more years.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Now, wasn't that fun?
28:18
SPEAKER_00: Whether you resonated with any of the characters' villain moments, maybe a character's longing as a victim, or you were excited to remember how some of them served as a guide.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: I really do think that stories like this remind us that the Enneagram isn't just about numbers, it really is about narrative.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: So I want to invite you to make sure you are subscribed to the Simply Wholehearted podcast so you don't miss part two.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: Annalise and I continue to laugh, analyze, and discover what Downton Abbey can show us about our own wholehearted journey.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Whether we're at Downton or in our own living rooms, we are all learning to move from victim to facing our inner villain to saying yes as the hero and eventually becoming a guide.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to have you listen in.