Latest / Crooked Tree: A West Memphis 3 Podcast / Episode 17: God, the Devil, and Damien

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Episode 17: God, the Devil, and Damien · Crooked Tree: A West Memphis 3 Podcast

• Paul: Welcome to Crooked Tree, a West Memphis Three podcast. Steve Jones, who is a juvenile officer, was was at the location that it that had observed the shoe and and I guess him and Denver were in that area at that time searching. Now when I found the first body of Steve Jones left in in a rather hurry fashion sick. Hello, everybody. Welcome back. My name is Paul Day, victim advocate for Christopher Byers and forensic geologist, researcher looking at the West Memphis 3 case for the better part of about 10 years. Here with my research partner, colleague, and good friend, Kristen Rich, also victim advocate for Christopher Byers. How are you doing today, Kristen? I'm here. It's been a rough few days. I got some sort of virus, but I am on the mend, and hopefully my voice will hold out for this episode. Yeah, I was a little worried that you weren't gonna be able to make it to this one, and this is one that we've all been waiting to get into for a long time. And so we're glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. And ⁓ I can't imagine doing one of these episodes without you, especially this one, this big one that everybody's been anticipating for a long time. So today's story begins the day after the children were found. Remember, the children were found on Thursday, May sixth. They'd gone missing on May fifth, they were discovered on May sixth. On the morning of May the seventh, which is a Friday morning, it was actually a pretty nice day. It was sunny out. At about 10 55 in the morning, a phone call came in from a person identified by the West Memphis PD as David Goodwin. And David Goodwin left a message with the West Memphis PD, which gives an idea for how the public might be thinking about this crime. Let's go ahead and read that note that was left with the West Memphis PD. The note says got message to call at David Goodwin in Texas about three boys murdered in West Memphis recently. Gilmer, Texas, ninety miles southwest of Texarkana. He is with the Texas Child Protective Services. Has ring of ritualistic abusers there. They've had ten boys killed there, all eight or younger. These boys' bodies have never been found. This investigation began their last August of ninety two. They have an informer who has said the perpetrators use duct tape to bind the boys' hands and feet. Some other children related to those involved have also said that duct tape is used. There is sexual abuse involved. The perpetrators are adults. Some of the perps have left the area. David Goodwin, Texas Department of Human Services. So he uses an interesting term, ritualistic abusers. And this is a pretty famous case out of Gilmer, Texas. This group of kids were being investigated by the Child Protective Services for sexual and physical and mental abuse. And that investigation was a pretty big investigation. In fact, David Goodwin worked for the Child Protective Services. So he probably had some type of least contemporaneous information about what was going on in this. And he wanted to alert the West Memphis PD, who he probably saw as colleagues reaching out in a professional capacity to say, hey, you might want to take a look at these ritualistic abuse situations. And one of the things that was raging across the country at the time was this concern about ritualistic abuse or satanic ritual abuse, which was considered to be a form of severe physical, sexual, or psychological abuse that was carried out in the context of a satanic ritual or an occultic ritual. And if you go and dig into what happened at Gilmer, that would later arise as a possible motive for what was going on out there. So this is right in the middle of that first shift. The first shift is seven AM to three PM and you're at eleven o'clock. You're right in the middle of that seven to three morning shift and they're getting this phone call. They're deep into the investigation now. The boys have been found. They're looking for a perpetrator. They're looking for some reason that our three boys were so viciously murdered. They're taking any lead they can get. People are calling in with tips and they're out canvassing the neighborhood already on this Friday morning. And four hours into that shift, they get this call about at least 10 boys allegedly being killed in Texas, not terribly far from West Memphis. If you're looking at maybe a serial killer, someone who moves around and commits murders, this could be your same guy. Yeah, it's not that difficult to get from West Memphis over into East Texas into the Texas Arcana area where this gentleman was calling from. And just to kind of give you an idea of where in the investigation this is, at the same time this is happening, this phone call comes in about what's going on in Gilmer, Texas. Paul Champagne is being interviewed by the West Memphis PD. Jeff Holiday and Clint Garner are shortly after this going to be down at West Memphis PD giving statements. So this is still in the early part of that weekend investigation. And so we're going to go over what happens that weekend, mainly on May seventh, that Friday, and May 9th, which is Mother's Day. And we're gonna skip over May 8th. So let's jump into what West Memphis PD is thinking on May the seventh. We know from tips that were given during the door-to-door canvassing and other ones that were phoned in that a lot of residents were already saying that these murders could have something to do with Satanism, some sort of ritual sacrifice. We have this phone call that comes in, this tip from Texas about ritualistic murders. Next we find out that two people we've talked about before, Lieutenant Sudbury and Officer Jones, who as you'll recall is the juvenile officer for Crittenden County, are thinking along these same lines as well. Immediately after the boys' bodies were found, they are in conversation with one another and they've decided what direction they want to look in order to try to solve these murders. So Detective Sudbury wrote a report. And in that report, he lays out exactly what they're thinking, and we'll read this report for you. It's not very long. He writes, On the day after the bodies of the three boys were found, I had a conversation with Steve Jones, a juvenile officer for Crittenden County, Arkansas. In our conversation, I found that Steve and I shared the same opinion that the murders appeared to have overtones of a cult sacrifice. During our conversation, Steve mentioned that of all the people known by him to be involved in cult type activities, one person stood out in his mind. That in his opinion was capable of being involved in this type of crime. That person was Damien Eccles. Steve stated that Damien lived at 2706 South Grove in Broadway Trailer Park in West Memphis, Arkansas. On this day, the day after the bodies were found, I asked Steve if he would meet me at Damien's residence in order to interview Damien. So the next paragraph has some weird grammar in it, but I'm going to say it as he says it. So understand that this is exactly as he's writing it. In fact, the day after the bodies were discovered, I went to twenty seven ⁓ six South Grove and meet with Steve Jones, whereas we talked to Pamela and Eddie Hutchison, the mother and stepfather of Damien. Neither Pamela nor Eddie objected to our talking to Damien. On this day, with Pamela and Eddie's permission, we talked to Damien in his bedroom, and on this day I took a Polaroid of Damien Eccles. At this time, I observed Damien to have a tattoo on his chest of a five-pointed star or pentagram, and as best I remember one other tattoo on his shoulder or arm. I am unsure of the nature of this tattoo. Signed, Lieutenant James Sudbury. So we have Lieutenant Sudbury, who as we know is part of the drug task force, the combined task force for Crittenden County and West Memphis, who we talked about in West Memphis Confidentials. So you guys know his background, what he would later go on to do, and that he would lose his job. Over his conduct as a police officer. And Steve Jones, the Crittenden County juvenile officer, who was present, he is the one who saw the shoe floating in the unnamed creek on the day of the discovery of Christopher, Stevie, and Michael. Yeah, he was the one when the body floated up. He got sick and he left the crime scene right away. And he immediately jumped to the conclusion that this was a cult sacrifice. And we're gonna get a little bit into the background of he and his boss, a gentleman by the name of Jerry Driver, who we also mentioned in the last episode. Of West Memphis Confidential and show that these guys have a huge influence on where this case is gonna go. What's really eye-opening about this is they're gonna have this discussion on the morning of May the seventh. That discussion starts off with Steve Jones and Sudbury having this conversation back and forth about occult sacrifice overtone happening at the crime scene. And turns out Steve Jones went over to two places that morning looking for Damian Eccles. The first place that he went to It appears to have been Jason Baldwin's house. Jason Baldwin is somebody we have barely mentioned, but Jason Baldwin lives up in Marion, which is the sister city of West Memphis, and he is Damian Eccles's best friend. He's also a neighbor of Damian Eccles' girlfriend. So it's kind of a good place to start looking if you're looking for Damian Eccles. He tends to hang out at his best friend's house and his girlfriend's house. In fact, there's a note from investigator Ron Lax that shows that Steve Jones did in fact come to the home of Jason Baldwin on May seventh. And that he was unable to locate Jason or Damien at that residence. When he wasn't discovered over there, they went over to Broadway Trailer Park, which is in southeastern West Memphis. That's where his mom and his natural father, who is also a stepfather. And well, you might be saying to yourself, How do you unravel that? How can you be a natural father and a stepfather? What had happened was Damien's parents had gotten divorced and he was later adopted by his stepfather. And then his parents got back together again, which is the situation he finds himself in. So his last name is Eccles, but his birth name is Hutchinson. So we'll have to unravel this at a future time. But just be aware that Eddie, while listed as his stepfather, is actually also his natural father. So they go in there and Steve Jones asks to talk to Damien. They said, Yeah, you can talk to Damien, no problem. Go back into the bedroom and talk to him. And he goes, well, before I talk to Damien, I need to make a phone call. So he uses their phone. Steve Jones uses the Hutchinson's phone to then call Lieutenant James Sudbury to the trailer saying, Hey, I found Damian Eccles and he wants to talk. And so James Sudbury comes over. And Damien is then going to be interviewed by James Sudbury and Steve Jones on this hunch of cult sacrifice. Now, what's really concerning about this interview is that we have almost no information that comes from it. It turns out that they interviewed him for about an hour and a half in that room. He was by himself. They took a Polaroid of him, and then they left with just kind of this. general description of we talked to him and we got permission to talk to him, but no other information came of that. And then they left. Fortunately, Damian Eccles does give a description of what happened during that. It's not a whole lot of information, but it shows the kind of questioning he was getting on May seventh. Again, less than twenty four hours after the children were pulled out of the water. And we're gonna go ahead and play Damian Eccles's testimony. When is the first time that you were aware about the the Missy Boys being found? I think it was on the sixth, either the sixth or seventh. And would that have been a T V report or something of that nature? Mm-hmm. Okay. as far as the rest of your activities, whatever you did on May the sixth, was that basically what you'd done the other days? Pretty much. Okay. ⁓ Do you recall the first time that the West Memphis Police Department came and talked to you about these murders? I don't remember the date it was on, but I remember when they came. Was that approximately a day or two days after the bodies were found? Mm-hmm. I think it was the same day I saw it on the news. Okay. Do you recall do you recall what officer it was or which which officers it was that came to see you on that occasion? Officer Steve Jones and Officer Sudbury. Alright, was Jones was he a formerly a well was he a juvenile officer? Yes. And so he knew you from the past? Mm-hmm. All right. And had you ever met Lieutenant Sudbury? Never before that day. When they were there did they come to your house or your house trailer? Yes. Okay. What did they want to talk about? ⁓ the murders. They just asked me, did I know who did it, wh why did I think they did it, things like that. All right. Did either of those two officers tell you any of the details about the murders on that occasion? They weren't real specific or anything, but they said a couple of things. Okay. Do you recall what they told you on that occasion? ⁓ I remember Steve Jones asked me, ⁓ why would they be in the water? I said, I don't know, I guess they tried to hide ⁓ or something. And he said, Well was it possible that they were pushed into the water to flush urine out of their system? Yeah, I guess so. Did they tell you any other details about what happened to the bodies or how they died or the condition the bodies were in? They asked me how I thought and I'd heard mutilated, but when I thought it mutilated I thought it was like all chopped up or something. I figured there wouldn't be like a whole body or anything. All right. Had there been rumors started already about what happened to the boys? Yes. Okay. Was was this something that a lot of people in West Memphis were talking about? Everybody was talking about it. Everybody was talking about it. Do you recall if those officers took a picture of you on that date they came to see you? Yes they did. ⁓ do you recall what you were wearing? What ⁓ I was wearing a pair of blue jeans and a tie dyed t shirt. I now there was a a photograph that was introduced earlier about a with the the ⁓ Portland Trailblazers basketball. Do you recall if you were wearing that? No, that was the second time they took a picture. Okay. The questioning is interesting, at least what little Damien recalls from that interaction. The fact that the boys were found in water would not have been a secret to anyone. That would have been all over the news, the rumors, everybody would have known that the boys were found in water. However, the question asking if they had been put in water to expel urine is a bizarre, absolutely bizarre question. And does point to what they had already decided happened in their minds. It kind of betrays their thinking though, because it does you're right, under a typical killing, it makes no sense. No killer is gonna do this. However, one of the allegations at the time is is that during a ritualistic satanic abuse episode where these kids are being sacrificed to Satan or sacrificing the occult or sacrificed to a moon goddess or whatever it is that's happening, that this would be part of the ritual to do this is one of the things I seem to be kind of digging for. And it you're right, it's a bizarre question because we would never ask that today. And yet here they're asking Damien Eccles this very question because They see him as somebody that would be involved in, as they would put it in Sudbury's report, involved in cult type activities. So it's interesting that they're going right at this theory and they're going right at it with him. Another thing that's interesting is is the issue of the Polaroid picture. Damian Eccles is disputing that the picture that was entered in court, we're going to come to it here in a bit, was the one taken by James Sudbury. And we actually have an answer for whether or not Damian Eccles is correct on that, but we need to work through some details before we get to that. In addition to Damien Eccles, we also have his mother, Pam Hutchison, who was present during this questioning. She wasn't actually present in the room for the questioning, but she was present when they showed up. And she had some additional details for clarity on what happened that day. Now, there's one little thing that I gotta bring up here. This is an interview that was taken about a week after Damien gave his interview, and she's already forgotten that the officer who showed up was James Sudbury. So she's gonna give an interview to Detective Brian Ridge, who's who is somebody you know very well by now, and James Sudbury, but she d doesn't recall that the other officer is James Sudbury. So she's gonna say another officer was called, but that other officer is the person she's actually interviewing with, and she does not recognize that. So I just want to make that clarification point in here. But she definitely remembers Steve Jones. I'm wondering if when Sudbury and Jones went on the seventh to interview Damien, If it's possible that Sudbury might have been in plain clothes either because he was off duty that day or maybe because he was doing something with the drug task force and was not in uniform. We know that Jones got there first and then called Sudbury. So we don't know if he was on duty somewhere else, what he was doing at that time, that he was called over to help interview Damien. I'm just curious because she didn't recognize him a week later, he probably was in uniform. when they called her in for questioning to the West Memphis PD. And so I'm wondering if the discrepancy there is because of the way he was dressed. Perhaps he was in plain clothes during the first interview and in uniform the second one. Well that Friday, May 7th, Shane Griffin, who works for Jane Sudbury, remember they're both on the drug task force, is engaged in a huge bust that had made statewide news. Yes. So it's entirely possible they were all in plain clothes associated with that bust, or he might just have the day off and he was working that day nonetheless and it is plain clothes. That's an interesting conjecture, and it's entirely possible. Let's go ahead and play Pam's interview with Ridge and Sudbury. I was up doing my usual. I got up and got my coffee. Diamond was still in the bed. And I don't remember for sure, but I think it was around eleven that Steve Jones And another gentleman. Well, Steve Jones came out by himself, uhhuh. Steve Jones came out by himself at first. And he asked me if he could use the phone. And I thought, sure. And he called somebody. And this other person that he called that I think was a detective, but I don't know this for sure. Came out to the house to talk to Damien. And they took him into the bedroom. Which is actually my daughter's bedroom but he had been sleeping in there. Does he have his own room? No, he does not. ⁓ they went into my daughter's bedroom and he talked they talked to me for a little while in there. And then they took him outside and he had to show ⁓ his I D and they took pictures of him. Did you walk outside with him? No, I did not. They didn't really want me out there with him. And they didn't want me in the bedroom with him. They wanted private power. Did you have a problem with that at that time? No. As long as he's not harassed I don't have any problem with that. Thursday. Uhhuh. This is about noon or just before noon. It was after noon before they left. They they was there for probably an hour, maybe an hour and a half. Did you notice any kind of response in Damien after the first officers talked to Steve Jones? No. He wasn't excessively nervous or anything like that. So according to Pim Her son Damien was relaxed. He was not worried about the police being in there. He was back in his sister's bedroom, which he was sleeping in, and was comfortable talking to them for the better part of an hour to an hour and a half. And aside from those couple little notes that we have from Damien giving testimony regarding that event, we have no idea what went on in that conversation, what they talked about or what the details were. But we do know that he got their attention and they're gonna keep an eye on him from this point forward. I think from when Damien recounted this event and also from when Pam, his mother, recounted this event, I don't think at that point they were scared. They weren't thinking that they're trying to pin this on Damien. They were familiar with Steve Jones and Pam said, I don't have a problem with the police talking to him as long as they don't harass him. There was some level of comfort there with Steve Jones questioning Damien at that time. So I don't think they thought that he was the target, that they're just doing their due diligence. Yeah, and it sounds like Damien felt like he was answering questions to try to help them in some way, to help guide them, if they felt that this was a satanic ritualistic abuse or occultic ritualistic abuse case, where maybe I can answer some questions to help you out with it. We haven't gotten into it yet, but Damien does have a lot of experience with these people and they have a lot of experience with him and they know he's very well read on some of these topics, much better than they are. And so he probably thought that this was more of an academic endeavor for him, but as far as I can tell, there's no evidence either way to show what their thinking is because they didn't take any notes other than to say they went and they thought he was into this and that was it. Yeah. At this point, neither one of them seemed alarmed that he was questioned. One of the things that is very clear though is that there was a sufficient amount of alarm for Pam, Damien's mother, where she s recognized that they were taking Polaroids of her son. She took him outside and took pictures of him wearing his shirt and then had him take his shirt off. And these Polaroids are very famous in the case. And he's standing there and he's got his arms up at one point showing that he doesn't have any marks on him, no scratches on him, showing whatever it is that he has to show. The Polaroid image that was taken by Sudbury is unfortunately not in evidence, despite the fact that it is listed by the West Memphis PD as being taken by Sudbury. We're going to show that that was actually taken on May 9th by his colleague Shane Griffin, who we had just mentioned earlier on the drug task force. So we'll be coming to that here in a little bit. But it does turn out that Damien is right. The Polaroid that Sudbury took is not the one that was entered into evidence. At some point on the seventh, another tip comes into the West Memphis Police Department. This tip is from a man who called to say he heard people at Lakeshore Trailer Park are into devil worship. Pastor at church is real concerned. Pastor of church at Lakeshore. Lakeshore is another trailer park. It's a really big trailer park. Within this trailer park, there is a church there. And we believe it's just called Lakeshore Baptist Church. So this man is saying that the pastor whose name is Dennis Ingle has gotten concerned because of these rumors that he is hearing that there are people who live in Lakeshore that are into devil worship and he's gotten very upset about this. So this man has called this tip in to the West Memphis Police Department. So the police are going to check this out. Lakeshore trailer park is really important and you're going to hear it mentioned over and over again in this podcast. One of the reasons that it's important is because it is home to several people connected to this case. The first one being Jason Baldwin, whose first name is Charles, Charles Jason Baldwin. He was 16 years old and he was Damien's best friend. In addition to him, another strong connection to that trailer park for Damien was Domini's here. She was Damien's girlfriend, also age 16. Damien's adoptive father, Jack Eccles, lived there as well. So as Paul was explaining earlier, he was adopted by his stepfather after his mom and his biological father divorced. His stepfather adopted him. He took on his stepfather's last name, which is Eccles. And then when they split up, she got back together with his biological father. But Damien retained the name Eccles. A lot of people who are very important to Damien live in this trailer park and he was there very, very frequently because he was visiting Jason, Domini, or his father. Damien spent a large amount of time in Lake Shore, not only because his best friend was there and his girlfriend was there, but because his whole social circle was kind of out in that area. A lot of the people that he grew up with would see him out there. He spent most of his time with his girlfriend Dominique when he was out there. And so he was a frequent visitor to the area. despite the fact that he would go and spend evenings over at his mom's house at twenty seven ⁓ six South Grove over in Broadway trailer park, which was about an hour walk away, or about four, four and a half miles if you had to actually walk it. And it was a very difficult way to walk because you have two major interstates in the way. So you'd have to find overpasses to walk on and you'd have to find underpasses to walk on or you'd follow train tracks to get there. And so Damian Eccles was commonly seen in the area of West Memphis walking around on his way to Lakeshore from Broadway trailer park and vice versa. And occasionally would get rides from his parents. And he was somebody that dressed a lot different than most people out there. He would be in the middle of the summertime wearing a large, long black trench coat. He liked to wear black. And he just stood out, you know? Every town has a group of kids. Today they call them goth kids, but back then it stood out a little bit more. You wore a Metallica shirt. Today it might be A my chemical romance shirt, but it's that kind of thing is going on. And he was walking around, usually to go visit his friend Jason and to go and spend time with Domini, his girlfriend. And you said something important there and we'll touch on it again in future episodes, but none of these kids had a means of transportation. They don't have driver's licenses, they don't have vehicles, they're not driving anywhere. They're walking or getting rides from other people who do have transportation. That's just how they grew up. They're riding a bike. They're riding a skateboard or they're walking. That's how they got from point A to point B. So at that point, the police are hearing these issues of alarm about Lakeshore and Damien is going about his life normally on May the seventh. That evening, he and Jason and Domini get together and they go to Skateworld. And they have a great time when they're at Skate World. Damien, of course, is wearing his long black trench coat. He's got his pentagrams, you know, he stands out. People kind of know what his deal is all about. And we're gonna get into what happened at Skate World in a future episode because it does turn out to be a big deal. But let's just say that Damien was sharing his experience with the police with other people that night. And it became common knowledge that the police were looking at Damien as a suspect that evening. And when you go to Skateworld, and Skateworld is populated with kids that are middle school age and a little bit older into the low high school age, rumors go like wildfire. And so he went out there and he was talking about whatever it was he was talking about. To Jason, they got overheard. And next thing you know, the entire skating rink is aware of the rumors that the police have been looking at Damian Eccles for this murder. So at this point, the police don't really have any reason to talk to Damian Eccles other than to have this concern that he, in their opinion, might have some connection to some cults. That all changes on Sunday, which is Mother's Day, right around 2:05, when Shane Griffin decides to follow up on that tip that was received the previous Friday. Remember the tip that said, There's a concern by the local pastor at the Lakeshore Baptist Church that there's Satan worship going on in the trailer park. So Shane Griffin of the drug task force, he is right beneath Lieutenant Sudbury, is dispatched to go out and interview Dennis Ingle. And we have a note that we think is pretty eye opening that shows where these guys are thinking they need to start looking in this investigation. So it's two ⁓ five PM on Mother's Day. Shane Griffin took the following note about Dennis Ingle. Dennis stated that a white male named Damien, last name later found out to be Eccles, hangs around Lakeshore Trailer Park and is supposed to be involved in Colts. Stated that Cult is supposed to meet somewhere around the Mississippi River. Stated that he has seen Damien wearing boots with six hundred sixty six on them. Damien is five eight, one hundred and seventy pounds. Date of birth twelve eleven seventy four. Has a girlfriend named Dominique. Alia Tear that lives at 121 West Lake Drive. And Westlake Drive is right there in Lakeshore Trailer Park, not that far away from Jason Baldwin. In fact, you could stand at Jason Baldwin's trailer and look up the road and you could see Domini's trailer, and that's where Domini and Damien would frequently spend the evening together. So Damien at this point, in the view of the West Memphis PD, has gone from somebody that just is interested in alternative religions. kind of has an alternative lifestyle, something we would call a goth kid, to suddenly being reported by the local preacher at the church, right adjacent to where he and his girlfriend and his best friend all live and stay and spend time out there at Lakeshore Trailer Park, to he's now running a cult and that the cult is meeting somewhere out near the Mississippi River and that he's got the number six six six on him. So he's gone from just being alternative to a straight out Satanist as far as this investigation is concerned. And they get the notes on where his girlfriend lives. And this investigation is going to push Shane Griffin to immediately start looking for either Damien or his girlfriend somewhere at Lakeshore Trailer Park. And he finds them. They're there that Sunday. So Shane Griffin interviewed both Damien and Domini. And the first person we want to cover is his report for Domini Tear. She's listed as being born on November twenty first, nineteen seventy six. She's five foot six, a hundred and ten pounds, so she's kind of a little thing. was tenth grade student at Marion, so she was part of the Marion School system at Marion High School, but mother took her out of school due to her being four months pregnant with Damien Eccles's child. Stated that on five five ninety three, she, Damien, and Jason Baldwin, were at Jason's uncle's house, somewhere around Dover Road, mowing the lawn in the early afternoon, then stated she got home around six PM and was there the rest of the night. And in parentheses it says verified by mother. So it's very clear that Domini's mom is in the vicinity and is verifying her alibi. Has her initials tattooed on the inside of the left leg, just above her ankle, and a teardrop. And it actually has in here a drawing of a teardrop above the web of her left hand. And in parentheses it says between thumb and forefinger. And then he concludes, I have a Polaroid of her. So it makes sense that she would have tattoos of her initials on the inside of her left leg and then have the tear drop because her last name is tear, Domini Tear. And we now have the information that she is four months pregnant with Damien Eccles's baby, which might explain why they're hanging out that day because it is Mother's Day. Mother's Day. The following are Shane Griffin's notes on his interview with Damien. Interview Damien Eccles, aka Michael Wayne Hutchison, five nine ninety three at three forty PM and five PM. White male Birth date 121174 58 170 pounds 2706 South Grove. He has a symbol on his hand, it's an anchor and faded pentagram on chest. Stated he has a G D and gets disability check. Has been in charter of Little Rock Mamel, which is a mental hospital, diagnosed as manic depressant and schizophrenic, and takes emiprimine for manic depression, has a therapist named Sherry Dawkins and psychiatrist named Dr. Erby. Doesn't believe in God or devil. Used to be involved in Wiccan Religion, Covenant of Divine Light, which practices white witchcraft. Further stated that 5593 he was home at 6 p.m. through the rest of the night. Stated that he thought the homicides were a thrill kill. Stated that sister was sexually abused several months back by stepfather, but that it didn't bother him. Has girlfriend named Domini Allia Tear, 121 West Lake Drive, Lakeshore. Who is four months pregnant with his child was arrested sometime last year at Marion for burglary. Have Polaroid picture of him. Sign Shane Griffin, five nine ninety-three. So what's really intriguing about the notes that we have here is that Shane Griffin is focusing on his mental health. He's learning that Damien had been in charter hospital, that he was a manic depressant and a schizophrenic, that he was taking a miprimine for that manic depression. They want to know who his doctors were. Where he was that night was almost an afterthought. It was one of last questions they asked. And he said, Hey, yeah, I was home with my parents after six o'clock on May the fifth. What's also very interesting is he was arrested sometime last year in Marion for and it says burglary. We actually know about what this was about. And it's possible that he knew what it was about, but did not want to talk about it right in front of Domini, the mother of his child, because it was related to an ex girlfriend in a situation that he was probably not very happy about. So we'll get into that in future episodes, but the fact that there's a Polaroid that was taken of him by Shane Griffin. This is the famous Polaroid of him wearing the basketball t shirt on May ninth. And the reason why we know this is because you can line up the background of the picture he's in. He's actually standing in front of Jason Baldwin's neighbor's trailer. And that's where that picture was taken. Domini was also taken in front of the same trailer. So we know that both those photos were taken on May ninth. Right. It was not at Broadway trailer park where he's mother lives. Now we don't dispute that Sudbury took photos of Damien on May seventh. We just don't think that the May seventh photos are in evidence. I think that they were lost. They've never shown up anywhere. But during trial, Sudbury will take credit for Chang Griffin's photos on May 9th and said, Yes, I was the one that took them. And Damien says no, that was taken slightly after Sudbury came out here and he disputes it. And Damien is actually correct on this. I want to draw attention to the fact that Shane Griffin brings up a very important early concept for Damian Eccles in terms of who he is, what he really believes in. In this report, he says he doesn't believe in God or devil, used to be involved in Wiccan religion, used to be this is an interesting use of words, covenant of divine light, which practices white witchcraft. So Damien is open about his views. Which is that white witchcraft is a part of his religious history. It's something that he has an interest in or had an interest in, but he's also saying used to. Does that mean that he's not part of it now? It's unclear based upon this. But the covenant of the divine light was a real group of people that met in West Memphis, and he says that he had some familiarity with them. He brings it up in his interview to Shane Griffin. And that's gonna come to haunt him as well as several other people in that group because they're all gonna get interviewed shortly after this. So after this is all done, the three forty interviews are happening with Damien, Domini, and presumably Jason is in the area at the time. He may have not been interviewed by Shane Griffin at that moment, but certainly by five o'clock, Domini, Damien, and Jason Baldwin, Damien's best friend, are all standing out in front of Jason's trailer. And they're meeting not only with Shane Griffin, but now Bill Durham is with them as well. And Bill Durham writes a report. We want to read this report to give some context for some of the information we're about to provide. On May 9th, 1993, Shane Griffin and I talked with Damian Eccles, Dominic Tear. This is very interesting because Domini is her name, but every once in a while, especially in the early reports, she's referred to as Dominique or Dominic, and this is one of those times where we see Dominic in the record. So Dominic Tyr and Jason Baldwin at 5 PM in the front yard at Jason Baldwin's house at 245 West Lake Drive, Lakeshore. They said that on Wednesday, five five ninety three D. That they had gone to Jason's uncle's house and Jason had cut the lawn. Unsure of the time they went to address. It is somewhere off Dover behind Blockbuster Video. Damien phoned his father to pick them up at the laundromat at Missouri and North Worthington. They said they were picked up at 6 p.m. and Damien's father took Jason and Dominic home and Damien went home. Shane Griffin at this time started asking them questions on the sheet. And then in parentheses it says questionnaire. Now this questionnaire is a big deal. We're going to come to that here in a moment. and did complete the sheet with Damien. He was asking Jason the questions when Jason Baldwin's mother arrived. We were standing in the front yard at Jason Baldwin's house trailer. Mrs. Baldwin was very upset and accused us of picking on her son and said she did not want us talking to him. I attempted to reason with her but to no avail. We then left. And what I want to do is play the clip before we get into this a little bit and get into the questionnaire in the interview, results that came from this. about what was on Gail Grinnell's mind. She shows up, she's very angry, she's very upset. They're questioning Jason, her son. So Gail Grinnell is Jason's mother. She's very angry about this. And she says, Leave my son alone. And we're gonna play that clip of her explanation for this given about four and a half months after this. Can you tell me why you got so upset the day the police were talking to Jason and Damien and Domini out in front of your trailer? I just got 'cause I 'cause I had just a lot of rumors going around about ⁓ and it had gotten me upset. That's right. And you didn't want the police talking to Jason? no. Okay. Can you tell me why you didn't want the police talking to Jason? ⁓ It's good, it's okay. They I thought that they was thought that Damien was guilty or something and I didn't want Jason running around with them. You didn't want Jason running around with Damien? Okay. But ⁓ I know they're all they're all innocent. Did Jason tell you something that scared you? No. Are you sure? I'm sure. Okay. So Gail had not only shown up upset that they were picking on her son, she's worried that the police are focusing on Damien because she herself had already heard the rumors about Damien around town and was terrified that Jason was going to get wrapped up in this situation and she wanted them out of the area. But it didn't really matter much because this point the police had already interviewed Jason and he was filling out a questionnaire and they got a lot of information from him. And they also got a lot of information from Damien. Now Domini was not questioned. in terms of the questionnaires. So we need to go over what the answers to their questions are, but we also need to go into what the questions were themselves and who put the questionnaire together. And that is actually pretty eye opening as well. Apparently this questionnaire was authored by Lieutenant Sudberry. There is a handwritten note at the top of the questions page that says that Lieutenant Sudberry made these questions. And it seems like they are tailored to either Who he thinks the perpetrator is, or maybe even more specifically to the people he's interviewing. We don't know. But some of these questions are very pointed, as you will see. Yeah. This is going to be a very interesting list of questions. It shows what Sudbury's thinking. Even though he's not there, he's got his DTF colleague, Shane Griffin, asking his questions. All right. So the way we'll do this is I'm going to ask the question and then Paul is going to give the responses for Damien first and then Jason second. So the first question. Did you know the boys? Damien says no. Jason says no. Number two, what should happen to someone who did something like this? Should they have a second chance? We have some questions about this, but before we even get to that, he's already made a mistake here on second question. There should be one question per line. He shouldn't be asking two questions together. So Damien's answer to these questions is death penalty. That's the phrase he uses. And for Jason, it just says same. So does that mean same as Damien? Does that mean something different? These two guys are not being interviewed together, being interviewed separately to give different answers. And we know that because Jason doesn't complete this questionnaire because his mom interrupts it. But Damien does complete it. So we know that he's interviewed separately. So what does same mean in this context? We don't have a clear answer. Right. From Damien's response, what should happen to someone who did something like this? The answer is death penalty. He doesn't answer the second question, which is should they have a second chance? So there's no answer to that question. And then we don't know what same is. Did he also say death penalty just like Damien did? So it means he should get the death penalty, or did Jason not answer the first question, which was what should happen to someone who did something like this? Did he mean same whatever he did to the boys should be done to him? Or the second question, should they have a second chance? Same? I don't understand the answer to this question. He's not taking good notes on the answers to these questions. Yeah, it's a serious problem. Yeah. It's gonna come up a couple of times that word same when it comes to Jason. And the question is same as what? Right. Okay. Number three, why would someone do this? Damien says it was a thrill kill. Jason says don't know. Four, who do you think did this and why? Damien says, don't know. Jason, same. Well, the good news is is that Damien said don't know and the previous answer Jason gave was don't know. So I think same means don't know in this instance. The best I think we could do with it is to say that he just doesn't know. Yeah. I'm shaking my head. Y'all can't see me, but I'm shaking my head. Number five, could it have been an accident? Damien says no, Jason says no. Six, did you or do you know who did this? Damien says no, Jason says no. Number seven, polygraph. Question mark. Do you think a polygraph is accurate? Damien says not accurate. Jason responds by saying, doesn't know. Number eight, would you take a polygraph? Damien says no. Jason says no. Number nine, how do you think they died? Damien responded by saying they were cut up. Jason said, don't know. Number ten, do you believe in God Devil? Damien says, God, no. Devil? No. Jason responds by saying, yes, he does believe in God Devil. Eleven, how do you think it would feel to kill or watch someone die? Damien responded with the words scary and scared, and Jason responded with the word disgusted. Twelve. Where were you Wednesday, 5593, between 6 p.m. and 10 p.m.? Damien said he was with his parents. Jason said from 6 30 till and then it says home. So presumably from 6 30 after he's saying that he was at home or associated with home somehow. 13. How does being questioned make you feel? Damien responds by saying it doesn't bother him. Jason says, like a suspect. 14. How do you think the person who did this feels? Damien said they like it. Happy. Jason says, don't know. 15. Are you a hunter? Fish? Camping? Damien says, no. Jason says, fish. 16. What type of vehicle do you have? Both of them say none, because they don't have vehicles or driver's licenses. 17. Do you own a gun? Type, etc. Both answer no. 18. Do you have a hunting knife or any large type of knife? Both answer no. No. 19. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to kill someone even if you didn't go through with it? Damien responded, yes. Jason, no. 20. Are you familiar with Turtle Hill? Damien said no. Jason said no. 21. Are you familiar with Robin Hood Hills? Damien responded, yes. Jason responded, no. 22. Have you ever been sexually or mentally abused? Damien responded, no. Sister abused by stepfather. Doesn't bother him. Jason responded, no. Twenty-three, do you at present have a relationship? Damien responded yes, and of course we know that that's dominating tear, and Jason responded yes, and we'll just go ahead and give her name Heather Clyot. Twenty-four, are your parents alive? Damien says yes. Jason says yes. Twenty-five, are you on medication? Medical doctor, mental patient. Damien responds, manic depression, emipine, four year, therapist, Sherry Dawkins, psychologist, Dr. Irby. Jason responded, No. Twenty six. Have you ever experimented with controlled substances? Damien responded, breathed gasoline. Jason responded, No. Twenty seven. Do you believe in white or black magic? Damien responded no and no. Jason did not answer this question because this was the question at which point his mother showed up and stopped the questioning of her son in front of her trailer. So there's no more questions from Jason being answered at this point. The rest will only be Damien. Twenty eight. Do you have or own a Bible? Damien responds, when younger. Twenty nine. Why would your fingerprint be at the scene? Damien responds, no. The implication being it's not going to be there. And for these last three questions, there's no response from Damien either. I don't know if his interview got interrupted for some reason or he just refused to answer these questions. Or he just wasn't asked them. Yeah, they could have ended the interview early, but we'll read them. Number thirty is we have interviewed a lot of people. The pieces are falling together quickly. Is there something you should tell us? Number thirty one, have you discussed this with anyone? Thirty two, why would your prints be in the area of or at the crime scene? It's interesting to me that question thirty says the phrase the pieces are falling together quickly. That is almost a quote directly from Gary Gitchell himself, who is saying that to the newspapers. And if you look at the newspapers on May 9th, 10th, 11th, and twelfth, you'll see that phrase come up over and over and over again. That the pieces are coming together quickly and it's puts together a sense of urgency in the mind of whoever's being questioned that maybe the cops are closer than you think. So it's an interesting question. Jason and Damien were not asked this question. And you might note some of those questions sound similar to questions we went through when we talked about the information that was faxed to them from the FBI about how they should question suspects. They had not received that yet. when this questionnaire was made and given to Damien and Jason. Yeah, this is completely from the mind of James Sudbury, the commander of the drug task force. So while James is not there in person, he is there in spirit. And this questionnaire is going to be used multiple times. So that's the reason why we took the time to read through all the questions. Once again, I would like to point out question that is not on here that I believe should be on here is Did you see the boys that day? They ask, did you know the boys? And they both say no. But they didn't ask if they saw them. Yeah. Doesn't ask if they saw them, doesn't ask where they work, doesn't ask some of the most relevant questions that they should have been going after. Instead, they're putting together a profile of a ritualistic satanic abuser. You can be familiar with the boys, you can know their names, you can know them by sight, but still answer do you know the boys no? Because you don't know them. No is one of those words that can be parsed and they should have asked some more nuanced questions as follow up, in my opinion. So at this point, they've answered these questions. They've been run off by Jason's mother, who probably admonished them at this point, especially Jason. You do not talk to these people. You do not entertain the police. They come over to the house. You get away from them. She probably said something of a warning to Damien also, because she was well aware that the police were of the opinion in her she'd heard the rumors and she was of the opinion that the police thought that Damien did it already on May 9th. And she was very worried about the consequences for her son, but I'm sure that she might have said something to Damien, but Damien probably didn't take it very seriously. He would in the next twenty four hours. He will definitely take it seriously. But at that point you might say, well, maybe she's rescued them and pulled them out of the fire. The problem is is that the damage is now done. And the reason why is at four fifteen PM another tip comes in. So while these interviews are going on, the US Memphis Police Department receives a tip. From a woman named Narlene Hollingsworth. She also lives in Lakeshore Trailer Park. She lives very close to Jason Baldwin and Domini's here. And in fact, through a tangled web of a family tree, was at some point related to Domini. This is what her tip says. Narlene Hollingsworth called and stated she saw the boys on their bikes at Weaver at 4:45 PM on Wednesday, going away from home. This is obviously. Christopher, Stevie, and Michael. Also, she saw Dominique, not Dominique, even though she was previously related to Dominique. She calls her Dominique. Also, she saw Dominique and Damien Wednesday at 9 40 p.m. walking from Blue Beacon towards Lakeshore Estates. They looked dirty. LG Hollingsworth, age 17, was at laundromat at 9 30 p.m. According to Mrs. Hollingsworth, her nephew LG made the statement on Thursday that he knew about what happened before anyone else. LG has 666 on the side of his boots. LG resides at 714 Macaulay Circle with his parents, LG and Linda. He works at Big Star West. Damien is mean and evil, according to Mrs. Hollingsworth. Signed Suzanne. There's nobody in this case more controversial than Gnarling Hollingsworth. This tip comes in at four fifteen. So right in the middle of the questioning of Damien and Domini and Jason at Lakeshore Trailer Park, which was happening right out in the open. How far away does Narlene live away from them? Three hundred feet from both trailers. She's about midway between the two of them. She sees everything. Right. We have two timestamps for their interviews, three forty PM and five PM. Yeah. And this comes in at four fifteen. And she says a couple of things. One, she says, I saw the boys that day. So I'm a witness. To where the three victims were that day at 445. So now you have another sighting you could put on from Darlene Hollingsworth on your timeline. You could say that she saw them over there riding their bikes near Weaver Elementary. Whether you believe or not is another issue, right? But we'll just say you could put it on there. Yeah, we will talk about that later. The next thing that she says is really problematic for Damien. Damien and Domini have just said, We were with Jason. Domini says, I went home. Damien says, and I went home. And then Jason says at 6 30, I was home. Here's Darlene Hollingsworth saying they were out on the service road that evening. They weren't home. They were out on the road. And I know them. Only Domini and Damien, not Jason. Yes, that's right. That the story itself is not true. But furthermore, she ropes in LG Hollingsworth, who is her nephew. And LG Hollingsworth is a very close friend of Domini's. There's kind of a family association there. They're former cousins, if you will. They kind of aren't cousins anymore because of divorce had happened. But they were cousins by marriage at one point. And so they grew up together and they saw each other as family. And so she says that her nephew LG made the statement on Thursday that he knew about what happened before anybody else, that LG had 666 on the side of his boots. By the way, we have investigated this. There is no evidence that LG had six six six on his boots. We have confirmed that six six six was on Damien's boots. So that is one of the things that we want to throw out there in terms of her mixing up. The information that she has. She probably heard that through a rumor and has confused the two. Yeah. And she also is of the opinion that LG and Damian Eccles are friends and they're acquaintances. They know of each other. I wouldn't say that they were super close or anything like this, but what's really interesting about LG is his address. He lives at 714 Macaulay Circle. He lives right next to the victims. He's right there in their backyard. He's right around the corner from Heather Clyde. So all of a sudden we have this situation with. Domini and Damien looking dirty on the service road when they're saying that they're home and that LG Hollingsworth is at the laundromat, the implication being that he might have something to do with this dirty clothes situation. I mean, this is something the cops are definitely going to follow up on. And it throws a monkey wrench into the conversation that is happening between Shane Griff Bill Durham, Jason, Damien, and Domini. And this will not be the last we hear from Arlene Hollingsworth. ⁓ they're going to go at her pretty hard and they're gonna be looking up LG Hollingsworth pretty quick. And in fact, it doesn't take them very long to start looking into this because James Sudbury gets in contact with Jerry Driver and Steve Jones. Now we've mentioned Steve Jones. He's the one that interviewed Damien on May seventh. Jerry Driver is Steve Jones' boss. They're both probation officers. Driver is a supervising person in that unit and both of them were the local cult cops, if you will. They studied this concept of satanic ritualistic abuse and whether or not it might be happening in the area. We're going to be digging a little bit deeper into their background here in a little bit. But James Sudbury reached out to Jerry Driver and asked for a list of people that he might have thought might be responsible for these crimes in the sense of a cult ritualistic abuse type situation. Just like the very reason they went to Damien's trailer on May 7th to begin with. And the list that came out of that were the following names Damien Wayne Eccles, Jason Baldwin. Now I'm gonna say this really quickly. Jason Baldwin, we presume is the Jason Baldwin that is Damian Eccles's best friend. There is another Jason Baldwin in the case who people have also alleged might be associated with satanic ritual abuse, a gentleman by the name of Jason Howard Baldwin. So which Jason Baldwin they're talking about, we actually don't know. Presumption is that it's probably Damien's best friend. LG Hollingsworth, and next to it is an asterisk, and the asterisk means that he is capable. This is the opinion of Jerry Driver, that LG Hollingsworth is capable of this crime. Then it says Domini Tear. This is Damien's girlfriend. Lisa Boulard. Lisa Boulard lived in Lakeshore Trailer Park. She was never investigated. This is the only time we're ever going to mention her. She was a resident there, and we're going to move on from her. Deanna Holcomb is the next name on the list. She is Damien Eccles' ex girlfriend. Remember, I said that. He wasn't guilty of burglary. He had committed another crime, but he probably didn't want to talk about it in front of his girlfriend, Domini Tear. That was associated with Deanna Holcomb. And she has some interesting input into this case. The next name on the list is a gentleman by the name of Murray Ferris. And there's another asterisk here. And whenever we see an asterisk on this list, it means that they're capable of committing this crime. So Murray Ferris and the next name is Chris Luttrell. You've heard the names Murray Ferris and Chris Luttrell in this podcast before. We're building a foundation and sometimes we drop names and we don't always emphasize enough. This is somebody you need to remember because we're gonna come back to this later on. But back in episode nine, our episode called Rumors and Whispers, Chris and Murray were already mentioned in the door to door notes on page one hundred twelve. And we read that to you. That was from a Betty Hinkle, who at eleven thirteen East Barton states that she felt that a Chris Latrell or Murray Ferris is involved because they kill small animals and have a six pointed star, both in high school. This whole thing is starting to kind of explode a little bit. Because it turns out Damien knows all of these people. And this is gonna be the center of their investigation for certainly the next several days at a minimum. And to remind you guys, since you've just heard Jerry Driver's name, we talked about him in West Memphis Confidential. He was the officer that we talked about last who took the money from the probationers fund and wrote checks to himself and ended up being fired. You know, be Between Jerry Driver, Steve Jones, and James Sudbury and the rest of the drug task force that is really the group of people that is focusing on this ritualistic abuse aspect, this cult aspect. It's really getting legs within the investigative arm of the West Memphis PD. And eventually they're going to persuade detectives Ridge and Allen and others that there's something to this. And we'll be documenting that in the next couple of episodes. Paul and I talked about this just between the two of us, but I'm gonna say it here. There's a lot of crime in West Memphis, not murders like a triple homicide of three eight-year-old boys. And we were talking about the really deep involvement of the drug task force officers in this case. And it's possible that they were so involved because. They had a lot of cases. They were doing a lot of investigations. So they may have had more experience as investigators than a lot of the other officers who worked at the West Memphis PD. And so it's very possible that that is why there's so many of them involved in this case, because they had more experience than the others. Gail Grinnell, Jason Baldwin's mother, is the hero of this episode. And I say that because she was smart enough to recognize what was going on. And did not allow her son to keep talking to the police. That is what every parent in this case should have done. They should have demanded a lawyer and they should have refused to talk to the police if they thought that their kids were in the crosshairs of the West Memphis Police Department. And I'm not saying this because it's the West Memphis Police Department and because we know what was going on there at the time. I'm saying that's just good practice. I have lots of friends who are police officers. I went to school with a lot of people who ended up becoming police officers. I have no problem with law enforcement. And law enforcement should not have a problem with you if you demand to have an attorney or as a parent be present for questioning a minor child. In addition, several of the answers Damien gave on the questionnaire did not help him at all. And we've probably all heard the Miranda warning a million times when we watch crime shows. That part where they say anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law, they're not joking. They will use it against you. So if you expect that a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old, an 18-year-old is going to not say something that might incriminate them when they're investigating a triple homicide, you'd be wrong. And so Gail Grinnell was extremely smart to stop the questioning of Jason and not allow him to be further questioned. This is the kind of tactical error that people talked themselves into trouble over. And Damien has absolutely talked himself into a situation where you're either going to believe Narlene or you're going to believe me. Somebody's not telling the truth. So I think this leaves us with some principal questions in front of the West Memphis PD. Chief amongst them is what is the covenant of the divine light? Who is LG Hollinsworth and how is he tied to Damien Eccles? What really happened on the service road in front of the Blue Beacon that evening on May 5th? And what is the true nature of Damian Eccles? If you want to join the discussion, we strongly encourage you to contribute to the case by following Crooked Tree Pot on Facebook, on X, or to follow us on YouTube. Next time on Crooked Tree, May 11th, 1993. Dear Detective Sergeant Mike Allen, I am currently the official cult and occult expert for the New York City Police Department. I conduct daily training on the influence of the occult, destructive cults for law enforcement. I also conduct training for investigative detectives in our criminal investigations course. As we discussed yesterday on the phone, permit me to forward some information that may be of assistance in your investigation. There may be a possibility that the triple homicide can be occultic in nature. If this is the case, there are some areas your investigators can focus on. Mm-hmm.