Latest / Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm / Academia versus Startup | Dr Priya Perumal

Transcript

Academia versus Startup | Dr Priya Perumal · Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm

• 0:00
  Priya Perumal: As a chief scientist, the more challenging part would not be, uh, that you are working in the science, but it's more about keeping the team together and making them focused on one particular, uh, objective, because the whole team has to work for one piece of, uh, um, objective, or the focus point would be, uh, very clear in the startup, which is different In academia, it is difficult for a researcher also to be like that.
• 0:31
  Priya Perumal: We get distracted in several things normally as a researcher when we are developing some product.
• 0:36
  Priya Perumal: We may get several ideas.
• 0:38
  Priya Perumal: Uh, so it is important that, uh, as a CSO, the chief scientist has to keep the team together and work on that particular objective.
• 0:47
  Priya Perumal: So we grow together.
• 0:49
  Chris Reichhelm: Welcome to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast.
• 0:53
  Chris Reichhelm: Too many advanced science and engineering companies fail to deliver their innovations from the lab to the market.
• 0:59
  Chris Reichhelm: We're on a mission to change that.
• 1:01
  Chris Reichhelm: My name is Chris Reichhelm, and I'm the founder and CEO of Deep Tech Leaders.
• 1:06
  Chris Reichhelm: Each week we speak with some of the world's leading entrepreneurs, investors, corporates, and policy makers about what it takes to succeed on the lab to market journey.
• 1:17
  Chris Reichhelm: Join us.
• 1:18
  Chris Reichhelm: If you're an academic or if you're a senior researcher inside a university and you're thinking of joining an advanced science or engineering deep tech startup, then you need to listen to this week's podcast, that journey from academia into the professional world, particularly into a startup.
• 1:39
  Chris Reichhelm: is a very particular type of journey.
• 1:42
  Chris Reichhelm: It's one that many have made and it's one that many have grappled with.
• 1:47
  Chris Reichhelm: And so this week I want to deal with that and helping me understand the nature of that journey.
• 1:54
  Chris Reichhelm: is Dr.
• 1:54
  Chris Reichhelm: Priya Perumal.
• 1:56
  Chris Reichhelm: Priya is a civil engineer by background.
• 1:58
  Chris Reichhelm: She's got a PhD in construction materials.
• 2:01
  Chris Reichhelm: She's a senior researcher and academic at the University of Oulu in Finland and she's also the chief scientific officer of a university spinout called C2CA based in the Netherlands.
• 2:14
  Chris Reichhelm: And they're focused on the recycling of concrete.
• 2:18
  Chris Reichhelm: I'm hoping that Priya is going to help all of us better understand the nature of this journey, the challenges, the obstacles, and I suppose some of the similarities that may exist between these two environments as well.
• 2:32
  Chris Reichhelm: Let's get into it.
• 2:41
  Chris Reichhelm: Priya, so many lab to market companies start life inside of universities.
• 2:48
  Chris Reichhelm: And, uh, and you know, the nature of what they're doing, that's not surprising.
• 2:53
  Chris Reichhelm: If you look at the nature of the talent that's inside so many of these companies too, you find a lot of people from research who started life inside of universities.
• 3:02
  Chris Reichhelm: And you've had that journey too.
• 3:05
  Chris Reichhelm: So I'm really excited to speak with you and learn more about what that journey is like.
• 3:14
  Chris Reichhelm: Can you start me off and share with me the impressions you had of what a startup would actually be like before you joined C2CA.
• 3:29
  Priya Perumal: Okay.
• 3:30
  Priya Perumal: Thanks for asking me this question.
• 3:32
  Priya Perumal: I would be, uh, excited to answer it.
• 3:35
  Priya Perumal: Um, before joining C2CA, this was not my first experience in a startup.
• 3:41
  Priya Perumal: So I was involved in a startup, uh, called SafeRock, uh, which is based in Stavanger, or now it is called Cemonite.
• 3:50
  Priya Perumal: Uh, they were trying to transform mine tailings into sustainable cements.
• 3:56
  Priya Perumal: So I was partially involved with them.
• 3:58
  Priya Perumal: Like 20 percent of my time was given to this startup as a technical advisor.
• 4:04
  Priya Perumal: And I do visit them once in three months and I spend a week there.
• 4:09
  Priya Perumal: So this was a very great, uh, uh, opportunity for me to start with.
• 4:15
  Priya Perumal: So I just got an insight, like how a startup life is.
• 4:20
  Priya Perumal: But like you may know, not every startup are same, right?
• 4:24
  Priya Perumal: So in Cemonite, they had a dedicated lab and they had many researchers already working there.
• 4:30
  Priya Perumal: So to me, it didn't look anything different from what I used to do in university as an academic.
• 4:37
  Priya Perumal: So, um, it was not so, uh, like scary or, uh, something like how we used to uh, think about, at least I used to think about a startup in that way, that it is, uh, uh, it is unstable.
• 4:52
  Priya Perumal: Of course, it is true, uh, that a startup life could be unstable, that you always have to be behind funding, and maybe your employment is not long enough, uh, so you should be ready to face those challenges.
• 5:06
  Priya Perumal: But also the reward is high, right?
• 5:08
  Priya Perumal: When you go successful, then it is also, uh, so, uh, personal and you feel it like, okay, this is my success.
• 5:16
  Priya Perumal: Unlike in corporates where it is like a big group of people, uh, and maybe when something happens as a big success, you may not feel it personally, but being in a startup with few people working in a team, you, it's like a family.
• 5:32
  Priya Perumal: So you, you just being like four or five people.
• 5:36
  Priya Perumal: in the initial stage with one aim and you all are putting too much effort on that and then you get, you create something and you see the impact of that, uh, that's so rewarding.
• 5:49
  Priya Perumal: Uh, I can't say more, like you have to experience it.
• 5:55
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 5:56
  Chris Reichhelm: But it wasn't actually that different than, than the impressions you had.
• 5:59
  Chris Reichhelm: And I guess based on what you've just said there, you were doing research in the lab and, uh, at the university.
• 6:07
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, you had this exposure early on to this other startup.
• 6:10
  Chris Reichhelm: They had a lab.
• 6:11
  Chris Reichhelm: There are other researchers doing research and, uh, obviously each startup is going to be a little different, but in the early phase, especially when they're still developing or defining the solution, there's a lot of research that's still going on.
• 6:23
  Priya Perumal: Yes.
• 6:24
  Chris Reichhelm: And so your, and so your sense was that actually it wasn't that different.
• 6:29
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 6:29
  Chris Reichhelm: Is that right?
• 6:30
  Priya Perumal: Yes.
• 6:30
  Priya Perumal: It was not so different.
• 6:32
  Priya Perumal: Uh, especially I would say this also depends on your role, right?
• 6:36
  Priya Perumal: So in the earlier startup that I joined, I was a technical advisor.
• 6:39
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, it's more like I have to do the similar, uh, kind of, uh, um, supervision and help them to develop some, uh, technical, uh, products or some inputs for what they are doing, or if they are stuck somewhere, then they need my advice on that and those things.
• 6:59
  Priya Perumal: So it was not so different from what I was doing as a research group leader in academia.
• 7:04
  Chris Reichhelm: That's interesting.
• 7:06
  Priya Perumal: Yes, and when I come to C2CA, uh, it is also, uh, was like more or less similar what I have seen in the initial stages because this, as you know, is a spinoff from TU Delft, so there was some patent already, a few patents already, but there is also some, um, some questions, open questions that I was to, um, or I had to handle in the initial stage.
• 7:33
  Priya Perumal: Which was bit, I think it, uh, it, uh, seemed like a huge responsibility on me, um, being like, you know, in executive role, then, uh, it, which was also the first time that I'm taking such a responsibility.
• 7:47
  Priya Perumal: And the first challenge that I would say is like, uh, in academia, uh, you have the, uh, you, you, you feel like you are playing in the safe ground, right?
• 7:57
  Priya Perumal: You know that you do some innovation and you know that it is gonna be published and it's gonna be verified in several stages if it has to go to the market.
• 8:07
  Priya Perumal: But when you are in a startup or any industry, you say, You do something, you say something, it's gonna be there in the market soon.
• 8:16
  Priya Perumal: It's not like you are just saying some fake promises or you are not saying something like you are, um, like, uh, making a dream land or something.
• 8:25
  Priya Perumal: It's like a real life.
• 8:26
  Priya Perumal: So I had that fear in the initial stages, being coming from academia to industry.
• 8:32
  Priya Perumal: Okay, I can't say things that I don't know 100 percent true.
• 8:36
  Priya Perumal: I can't say things that, uh, I'm not sure about.
• 8:40
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, which was, uh, some, something that I learned, but also then, uh, this is also things that I have to work together with the commercial and business development, uh, people because it's also not that like, uh, you know, um, like, uh, 100 percent it has to work before you go and test it in the field.
• 9:05
  Chris Reichhelm: So, let me stop you there.
• 9:07
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 9:08
  Chris Reichhelm: This is so, this is really interesting.
• 9:11
  Chris Reichhelm: Really interesting.
• 9:12
  Chris Reichhelm: So, did you feel like you had more freedom inside the university to make claims that weren't potentially proven?
• 9:22
  Chris Reichhelm: Or did you feel you had less freedom to make those claims compared to a startup?
• 9:28
  Priya Perumal: Um, I, I would say that, um, yes, in university, at least the preliminary studies, what you do, uh, before going to the, uh, main experimentation, uh, yeah, you can take chances.
• 9:43
  Priya Perumal: You can take chances and you can always also report that it failed.
• 9:47
  Priya Perumal: And you can always say that, okay, uh, at this setup and this laboratory condition, this work, but maybe it is not possible to be used in any other different situations.
• 9:59
  Priya Perumal: But when you are in industry, you should be sure that it's gonna work in any situation.
• 10:05
  Priya Perumal: And when you are promising your clients, then you have to be sure because it's also your reputation, right?
• 10:11
  Priya Perumal: You cannot promise things that you are not sure about.
• 10:15
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Chris Reichhelm: So let me ask again.
• 10:18
  Chris Reichhelm: So the point you're making I think is an excellent one here.
• 10:22
  Chris Reichhelm: If you're going to be making claims to clients around the performance of a particular material or a platform or whatever it is, you have to be sure of your claims if you want to build their, if you want to win their trust.
• 10:32
  Priya Perumal: Exactly.
• 10:33
  Chris Reichhelm: How you also, so does that limit how much communication you're going to have with clients about your technology in the early phases?
• 10:43
  Chris Reichhelm: Because you're still exploring, you still have to research and explore and make your hypotheses.
• 10:50
  Chris Reichhelm: And feel comfortable to make mistakes.
• 10:51
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 10:52
  Chris Reichhelm: How do you get that balance right?
• 10:53
  Priya Perumal: Uh, this is nice because, uh, these days, clients also understand things.
• 10:59
  Priya Perumal: So, and also I should, uh, thank, I should be thankful for the field that I'm working because it's in the sustainability and, uh, low carbon conflict, right?
• 11:08
  Priya Perumal: So people are talking about the climate change and the climate action, and they need some solution.
• 11:13
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, all I have to do is, uh, be open to my clients and say, like, see, this is what I have achieved.
• 11:20
  Priya Perumal: And I, I feel, or I have the, uh, faith that this could go to this extent, and we can try it together.
• 11:28
  Priya Perumal: So clients are open to accept it and they are really, uh, or into it.
• 11:32
  Priya Perumal: And they also want to explore things, uh, to reduce their carbon emission in their products.
• 11:38
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, the market is good for this field.
• 11:41
  Priya Perumal: So it's in that sense, it's good that I can be, all I have to do is I have to open and I have to be, uh, true and say things that, uh, okay, if I'm not sure, then I would say that, uh, I have done this and I'm 80 percent sure about it, but we can try it together.
• 11:59
  Chris Reichhelm: Sure, sure.
• 12:00
  Chris Reichhelm: So that, that degree of openness.
• 12:03
  Priya Perumal: Yes.
• 12:03
  Chris Reichhelm: And making sure that you're really setting very clear expectations.
• 12:09
  Priya Perumal: Exactly.
• 12:09
  Chris Reichhelm: And being as honest as you can about your feelings on where a particular platform or material is in terms of performance and I suppose, you know, you operate in the net zero game with building materials companies who are desperately trying to bring down their emissions, their carbon emissions.
• 12:30
  Chris Reichhelm: So this is a big problem.
• 12:32
  Chris Reichhelm: They don't get this right.
• 12:33
  Chris Reichhelm: They're going to have to pay fines.
• 12:34
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 12:35
  Chris Reichhelm: And they may wind up losing market share over time.
• 12:38
  Chris Reichhelm: So there's a race on.
• 12:39
  Chris Reichhelm: So I think in areas it's, it sounds like in areas where the problem is, is, is acute enough, they may be more willing to experiment with you.
• 12:49
  Priya Perumal: Mm hmm, yep.
• 12:51
  Chris Reichhelm: And to, and to, and to say, if you're 80 percent sure right now, that may be okay.
• 12:57
  Chris Reichhelm: No one else has anything better right now, so we're willing to engage.
• 13:02
  Priya Perumal: like, if I have a strategy and I could explain them, okay, this is my, this is the strategy that I propose, so we can also reach that 100 percent in seven months, then they are okay with it.
• 13:13
  Priya Perumal: They are ready to try it.
• 13:14
  Priya Perumal: It's more like, uh, uh, I should have some plans and.
• 13:19
  Priya Perumal: It's a hypothesis that I should be able to prove.
• 13:22
  Priya Perumal: So this is the challenge that I have now, uh, as a chief scientist here.
• 13:26
  Priya Perumal: Like, uh, I have to go more into the finds.
• 13:29
  Chris Reichhelm: I get that.
• 13:30
  Priya Perumal: Mm hmm.
• 13:31
  Chris Reichhelm: Now, let me ask another question.
• 13:32
  Chris Reichhelm: In, so you went through your education, you get your PhD, you become a researcher, you become an academic.
• 13:41
  Chris Reichhelm: Where do you learn how to do the kind of research that is going to be relevant at the commercial level?
• 13:51
  Chris Reichhelm: Are there particular systems or frameworks, ways of working that, that the university environment teaches you and that are applicable within, within a professional environment, much less a startup.
• 14:09
  Priya Perumal: So this has, uh, many different level of answers.
• 14:12
  Priya Perumal: I can start, uh, saying it one by one.
• 14:15
  Priya Perumal: So the first thing is my basic education is on civil engineering.
• 14:19
  Priya Perumal: You know, it's the civil engineers are those who are there to help the community, right?
• 14:25
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, that, that this training started from my undergrad and, uh, that more, it's more about application engineering.
• 14:34
  Priya Perumal: So this is what was my base.
• 14:37
  Priya Perumal: So I took this course because I love to do it.
• 14:40
  Priya Perumal: I want to see something.
• 14:42
  Priya Perumal: And initially after my undergrad, I was put up with the software company for two years and, uh, I was coding and I was not happy doing it because I know you can also make impact by doing coding and creating some products out of it.
• 14:57
  Priya Perumal: But for me, uh, from the early stage, uh, I get enthusiastic to see the things physically when I do.
• 15:05
  Priya Perumal: Uh, something to the community.
• 15:07
  Priya Perumal: Either I build a bridge or I build some, uh, irrigation system or something.
• 15:12
  Priya Perumal: I want to see things happen in my eyes or I should feel it.
• 15:16
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, so I had to quit that because I was not so happy about just, uh, having a computer and coding.
• 15:23
  Priya Perumal: And then I took up the research, uh, because I want to also educate myself to do, uh, things, uh, that, uh, would help the community, because I, I felt like I need to acquire more knowledge.
• 15:37
  Priya Perumal: And, uh, during those days, uh, I was doing my PhD in Indian Institute of Technology, uh, Madras, that's Chennai.
• 15:45
  Priya Perumal: And, uh, prefaces there, they always insist on practical applications.
• 15:50
  Priya Perumal: It's not just like, you know, research.
• 15:52
  Priya Perumal: Um, I was doing my PhD, uh, together with a mining company, so it is more about that they want to apply that solution in the company.
• 16:01
  Priya Perumal: Um, so it's always like, uh, um, all my research was application oriented.
• 16:06
  Priya Perumal: And then I came to Europe, and it's so awesome in Europe, even if you apply for a funding, you always have to, uh, prove to the funding agency how it is going to be practically helpful for some industry.
• 16:20
  Priya Perumal: Or it is even better if you already have an industrial partner in your proposal.
• 16:25
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, researchers are always trained in that way.
• 16:29
  Priya Perumal: Of course, there are also some funding that gives you freedom to do basic science, but most of the funding for the academicians come for practical applications.
• 16:39
  Priya Perumal: So, I am, or, uh, I still am blessed to get such fundings to do something that I'm passionate about, uh, which is to give back to the society and to do something impactful to the society.
• 16:53
  Priya Perumal: Uh, so, uh, all my life I, I have been trying to do this thing, so it was not so difficult for me to adapt to this condition.
• 17:01
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 17:02
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 17:02
  Chris Reichhelm: But the point you're making there is on the education.
• 17:04
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 17:05
  Chris Reichhelm: is that you're partnering very early on with, you know, you, well, A, you're trying to make it applicable.
• 17:11
  Chris Reichhelm: And so, uh, and then you're partnering with other organizations, private companies.
• 17:18
  Chris Reichhelm: And are they teaching you the ways, are they teaching you how you apply your understanding in ways that they would recognize?
• 17:28
  Chris Reichhelm: So, when you're trying to bring innovation to market, uh, you need to be researching in a particular way.
• 17:35
  Chris Reichhelm: You need to be documenting things in a particular way.
• 17:38
  Chris Reichhelm: There are certain systems you need to be followed, uh, you need to follow that they will recognize.
• 17:44
  Chris Reichhelm: Is that what they're teaching you?
• 17:46
  Priya Perumal: Uh, see Chris, uh, this is also something like, uh, based on your personality.
• 17:52
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, there are also academicians and scientists who are, uh, happy to be in academia and want to do things that, uh, fit you a better position in academic role, uh, which may not need you to think in a way that you will be, uh, using your applications practically in the industries, right?
• 18:11
  Priya Perumal: And they need to prove something, uh, so much into the basic science or, uh, they have to go in depth into the, uh, into the research.
• 18:20
  Priya Perumal: But, uh, as a person, uh, I, I, I am interested in doing things that practically is applicable.
• 18:27
  Priya Perumal: So it is also the personality.
• 18:29
  Priya Perumal: So it's not mean somebody trained me to do it or the industry is asking me to do it.
• 18:34
  Priya Perumal: It is a thing that excites me.
• 18:37
  Priya Perumal: that I want to do.
• 18:38
  Chris Reichhelm: I understand that.
• 18:39
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 18:40
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 18:40
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 18:41
  Chris Reichhelm: I understand that.
• 18:41
  Chris Reichhelm: But the ways in which you do research, let me ask the question a different way.
• 18:45
  Chris Reichhelm: The ways in which you do research, are they similar ways in which a leading organization, a potential industrial partner, or a potential customer would do research?
• 18:56
  Chris Reichhelm: Are the ways you do research similar to the ways other private sector organizations do research?
• 19:05
  Priya Perumal: Um, there are a lot of difference, uh, and also some similarities.
• 19:10
  Priya Perumal: Uh, I can say some example.
• 19:12
  Priya Perumal: For example, like, uh, if you see a cement industry want to find an alternative for cement, maybe for them the important part is like, uh, the cement should be, uh, like, should be of same performance of what they already have as cement in the market now.
• 19:28
  Priya Perumal: Right?
• 19:29
  Priya Perumal: But as an academician, I want to know why it is behaving the same.
• 19:34
  Priya Perumal: I want to know like, uh, the, uh, Y part, but in industry, it is like, uh, uh, how do I make it?
• 19:43
  Priya Perumal: Okay.
• 19:43
  Priya Perumal: I do this and this will give me a similar product.
• 19:47
  Priya Perumal: Then it's okay.
• 19:47
  Priya Perumal: It's performance is good.
• 19:49
  Priya Perumal: It's okay.
• 19:50
  Priya Perumal: But in academic, we, we want to know like, uh, uh, why and the science behind it, how this is happening this way and those details, right?
• 20:00
  Priya Perumal: And the industry don't want to know like, uh, uh, these informations behind the scene.
• 20:06
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Chris Reichhelm: Okay.
• 20:08
  Chris Reichhelm: That's interesting.
• 20:09
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 20:09
  Chris Reichhelm: So industry cares a little bit less about the whys, I suppose, but surely they must need some of that insight as well.
• 20:16
  Chris Reichhelm: Their R& D departments, assuming they have R& D departments.
• 20:20
  Priya Perumal: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:21
  Priya Perumal: I mean, they want to know this part because, uh, if they could improve the performance, they can do it only if they know the whys.
• 20:30
  Priya Perumal: Of course, the R& D part would be doing this.
• 20:33
  Priya Perumal: Uh, but most, mostly it is more about like the performance.
• 20:38
  Priya Perumal: So that is important for the industry than to understand it more technically.
• 20:43
  Chris Reichhelm: Okay.
• 20:43
  Chris Reichhelm: That's interesting.
• 20:44
  Chris Reichhelm: So that's another really interesting insight here that.
• 20:50
  Chris Reichhelm: You know, industry is more interested in the performance and I suppose the stability, the consistency of that performance.
• 20:57
  Chris Reichhelm: If we test this material every time, every time it's going to deliver the same performance.
• 21:01
  Chris Reichhelm: It's going to meet these metrics, whatever, as opposed to necessarily the why.
• 21:06
  Chris Reichhelm: We just want to make sure it works, but as an academic, that curiosity leads you to almost forces you to understand the why.
• 21:18
  Priya Perumal: But I can also say that this is different in startup.
• 21:22
  Priya Perumal: I see that startup also works, uh, both as an academic and also as industry.
• 21:28
  Priya Perumal: So they want to know both like why and also the hows, because, uh, they, they need to always convince the investors, right?
• 21:36
  Priya Perumal: They don't have their own money as like in corporate that they can go on, uh, introduce a new product.
• 21:43
  Priya Perumal: So they also, they always have to convince their investors.
• 21:46
  Priya Perumal: They have, they have to explain the investors that how this is happening, why this is happening and those things.
• 21:51
  Priya Perumal: So, I feel that in startup, they also go in depth into the science part because there are stakeholders who want to know that.
• 22:01
  Chris Reichhelm: And the investors often have science or technical backgrounds.
• 22:05
  Priya Perumal: Exactly.
• 22:05
  Chris Reichhelm: And so they want to understand some of the basics around the whys.
• 22:09
  Priya Perumal: Yes.
• 22:10
  Chris Reichhelm: As opposed to some of the corporates, I guess, who just want to understand, who want to be, who want to be convinced that it works.
• 22:19
  Chris Reichhelm: That's, that's interesting.
• 22:21
  Chris Reichhelm: And I think if we look at the tensions that often exist between startups and the market, or even between, let's say, commercial executives and research executives within the same startups, You can find this tension between the researchers who are really interested in understanding the whys and the more commercial oriented executives who don't care.
• 22:45
  Chris Reichhelm: I just want to get this thing to market.
• 22:48
  Chris Reichhelm: So that's,
• 22:50
  Priya Perumal: it's a, I would say both are very important because Uh, for me, before joining a startup or any industry, uh, I always feel as a scientist that I should know 100 percent that this works and being a person who's, uh, enthusiastic about applying my, uh, results in the market, I always want to know, like, several level of testing is needed before I apply it in the market.
• 23:17
  Priya Perumal: But, uh, I, I'm also convinced when I hear from the commercial executives and also from, uh, business developers that, um, if you keep thinking, right, you don't have time to change this, uh, uh, climate issues.
• 23:34
  Priya Perumal: You don't have so much of time.
• 23:35
  Priya Perumal: You have to apply it.
• 23:36
  Priya Perumal: You have to check how this works.
• 23:39
  Priya Perumal: You have to go for it.
• 23:40
  Priya Perumal: We have to be brave.
• 23:41
  Priya Perumal: We have to check the things and yeah, of course, we have to play safe, but at the same time we have to keep going.
• 23:49
  Priya Perumal: It's not like you have to wait until you are proving it a hundred percent, yeah?
• 23:56
  Chris Reichhelm: So, does that mean that you can't always have to figure out why, to the extent that you would ordinarily wish?
• 24:05
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 24:05
  Priya Perumal: And, uh, there is always the option that you can go from the, uh, applications that, uh, that don't, uh, or they are not so, uh, difficult to change.
• 24:17
  Priya Perumal: For example, in my field, uh, we can go for, like, pavement blocks, which is not a structural element.
• 24:24
  Priya Perumal: So it don't affect anything if we are trying something new or a new material in such cases.
• 24:31
  Priya Perumal: So we get some insights like how it performs in different climates and things.
• 24:35
  Priya Perumal: So yeah, we have to go for it.
• 24:39
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Chris Reichhelm: That's, that's a really interesting discussion, Priya.
• 24:44
  Chris Reichhelm: Tell me a little bit, let's move on a little bit.
• 24:46
  Chris Reichhelm: Tell me a little bit about the role of chief scientist.
• 24:51
  Chris Reichhelm: Within a startup, what is the, as you understand it, you're living it because you're currently a chief scientist, what is the role of chief scientist within a startup?
• 25:01
  Priya Perumal: Um, I can define it that way that, uh, you should be a seller of your technology.
• 25:10
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, for me, um, my role is like, uh, uh, as it is like, uh, beginning stage of the startup.
• 25:19
  Priya Perumal: Uh, I can't say that it is just a CSO role for me.
• 25:22
  Priya Perumal: I, I will be in business meetings and I'm also doing, uh, The technology development and I'm also then, um, in the investor meeting.
• 25:33
  Priya Perumal: Uh, pitching the idea.
• 25:34
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, it's more like, uh, selling the technology that we develop in the, uh, in the firm, right?
• 25:43
  Priya Perumal: So that is what I'm doing, but I do also have, uh, um, communication with the academic partners.
• 25:50
  Priya Perumal: And I do have my own team with a few researchers working for me in different academic universities.
• 25:58
  Priya Perumal: So it's also about collaboration with the different research and Development Labs.
• 26:04
  Priya Perumal: Uh, that's also part of my job and, uh, also then bringing funding to develop further technology, so I write proposals for European Union funding or some local governmental funding.
• 26:16
  Priya Perumal: So, so this is more also I do in academic field, right?
• 26:21
  Priya Perumal: Uh, and also I, I felt like when I started this job, it's, um, I started feeling like the academic job that I did was also like a startup, uh, at least in Finland.
• 26:31
  Priya Perumal: Because, uh, in academia in Finland, uh, you don't get a salary from the university, you have to bring your own salary.
• 26:41
  Priya Perumal: So it's more like I was running.
• 26:44
  Priya Perumal: Yes, it is more like I was running my own startup.
• 26:47
  Priya Perumal: So I have to bring salary for myself and also for my team members.
• 26:52
  Priya Perumal: So I keep writing funding proposals to the European Union and national funding.
• 26:58
  Priya Perumal: So then.
• 26:59
  Priya Perumal: I have to, uh, be like running a startup.
• 27:03
  Priya Perumal: So it, it, it looked more similar.
• 27:07
  Chris Reichhelm: That's really interesting.
• 27:09
  Chris Reichhelm: So you had this almost self employed type status within the university.
• 27:14
  Chris Reichhelm: You've got to, you're, the only way you're going to eat is if you secure grant funding.
• 27:20
  Chris Reichhelm: So you have to secure, you've got to secure the confidence and the interest of these bodies who are, you know, handing out grants, interested in research, interested in applying that research to specific areas.
• 27:31
  Chris Reichhelm: You've got to find those and then go and, uh, and then go and secure that finance.
• 27:37
  Chris Reichhelm: That's really interesting.
• 27:39
  Priya Perumal: And that's very, you know,
• 27:40
  Chris Reichhelm: spiritually, that's very akin to a startup too.
• 27:44
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 27:44
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 27:45
  Priya Perumal: So I always had this feel it's like running a startup also in academia because I do the similar like technology development together with industries and I have my own research team, which I bring funding for their salary.
• 28:00
  Priya Perumal: So it's more like having my own startup.
• 28:03
  Chris Reichhelm: Okay.
• 28:03
  Chris Reichhelm: So you've got your own team.
• 28:04
  Chris Reichhelm: So to go back, so you know the role for a chief scientist for you, you are, you're developing the technology.
• 28:13
  Priya Perumal: Mm-Hmm.
• 28:14
  Chris Reichhelm: still, it sounds like you're, so, in that respect, it feels a bit like a CTO role.
• 28:20
  Priya Perumal: Um, yeah.
• 28:23
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, so, so you're developing the technology.
• 28:26
  Chris Reichhelm: You are sitting in on business development meetings.
• 28:28
  Priya Perumal: Mm-Hmm.
• 28:29
  Priya Perumal: , Chris Reichhelm: um, listening to what Um, giving them confidence about the direction you guys are headed in technologically.
• 28:38
  Priya Perumal: You are supporting the financing process.
• 28:43
  Priya Perumal: Uh, and then you are collaborating with the different researchers, not just within C2CA, but within the universities of which you're associated, uh, to, to, I suppose, marshal their efforts and resources so that it benefits
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: the
• 28:59
  Chris Reichhelm: company in some way.
• 29:01
  Chris Reichhelm: That, you know, that's an awful, you know, that's a lot of work.
• 29:04
  Chris Reichhelm: That's a lot of activity, but I can see how actually blending technology development with some of those areas is beneficial.
• 29:13
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 29:13
  Priya Perumal: It's so, um, it's so interesting also for me to have this role, uh, because, uh, I got to, uh, uh, I got to know a lot of, uh, people from different other, uh, industries as well.
• 29:28
  Priya Perumal: After getting this role, like, uh, my contacts with the different cement industries, not only that, but also, uh, investors.
• 29:36
  Priya Perumal: I really value those, uh, uh, communication with the, uh, People who are in R& D or investors from the different, uh, uh, industrial sector, uh, which, um, increased my skillset also about like negotiation and pitching and, uh, my confidence on, uh, talking about my technology and yeah, these are, uh, something I, uh, acquired new after getting into startup.
• 30:05
  Priya Perumal: Um, um, yeah, I would say like also in academia, what happened was like, I was in this role in Finland as an academic researcher for like six years.
• 30:16
  Priya Perumal: And I know, like, like I said, that there are its own challenges, like bringing in money and having your own team and To grow in academia, then you have to keep running for this funding and there is no limit like how many funding you need or how many people you have to have in your group or how many articles you have to publish in a year.
• 30:39
  Priya Perumal: So there is always this rat race, you can say.
• 30:42
  Priya Perumal: Um, you keep doing it right, uh, but at some point you also get saturated or comfortable with that, what you were doing.
• 30:51
  Priya Perumal: And I'm a person also like always looking for challenge or I don't know how other people might see, like, uh, she always bring, uh, or go for some trouble So I, uh, , I like to, uh, or I wanted to explore something new and challenging and, uh, uh, C2CA uh, didn't disappoint me on that.
• 31:12
  Priya Perumal: So it gave me Well, you did that.
• 31:14
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 31:16
  Chris Reichhelm: No, that's great.
• 31:17
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 31:18
  Chris Reichhelm: That's really great.
• 31:19
  Chris Reichhelm: How did, you know, from these different interactions you've had with these different stakeholders, uh, some of which you wouldn't get if you were focused exclusively on research within a university, how did these interactions change your view of the, of the technology development process if at all?
• 31:43
  Chris Reichhelm: Hmm.
• 31:45
  Priya Perumal: So when in, when I'm in academia, I do work with industries, but it's like I'm developing some product for a different industry, right?
• 31:53
  Priya Perumal: So they are like my clients and I'm developing a product for them.
• 31:58
  Priya Perumal: And, uh, uh, most probably we will be having a project together and, uh, uh, maybe they will be either developing a patent or just getting a consultancy work from us.
• 32:09
  Priya Perumal: But in this case, I am the person who is developing a product and I'm selling my product, not my, just my, uh, knowledge or idea of developing a product to somebody.
• 32:21
  Priya Perumal: So it's like, uh, uh, you have the chance to develop your own product.
• 32:26
  Priya Perumal: And also you're, you are pitching on, uh, or you are, uh, telling about like how, how good it is and how impactful it is to, uh, the, uh, to the investors.
• 32:37
  Priya Perumal: And it gives you a, uh, a great feeling that, uh, how people are valuing your product as an investor.
• 32:45
  Priya Perumal: And so that's different from what I have been dealing as an academician, right?
• 32:51
  Priya Perumal: So people come with requirements when they come to me as an academician that, okay, I have a problem with this product, and do you have a solution?
• 33:00
  Priya Perumal: Would you like to develop some product out of our materials and this and that?
• 33:04
  Priya Perumal: But here I define my product.
• 33:07
  Priya Perumal: I have the freedom, like, okay, which direction I want to take my, uh, startup and which type of, uh, field I want to, uh, create an impact.
• 33:16
  Priya Perumal: Mm-Hmm, . Yeah.
• 33:19
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 33:20
  Chris Reichhelm: So, yeah.
• 33:21
  Chris Reichhelm: That's interesting.
• 33:22
  Chris Reichhelm: So, uh, if I can summarize inside the university, people are coming to you because of your expertise, but also for your capability, the capability of you and your research team.
• 33:34
  Priya Perumal: Yep.
• 33:34
  Chris Reichhelm: They want to buy that service.
• 33:36
  Priya Perumal: Mm hmm.
• 33:37
  Chris Reichhelm: from you for their benefit.
• 33:38
  Chris Reichhelm: Inside a company, it's not about you.
• 33:41
  Chris Reichhelm: It's all about the company.
• 33:43
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 33:43
  Chris Reichhelm: It's all about the performance and the product, uh, uh, stability and how it's going to integrate with their, uh, you know, with their systems and products and solutions.
• 33:56
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, and so does that make you, does that make you sharper as a, you know, does that make you more ruthless?
• 34:04
  Priya Perumal: Um.
• 34:05
  Chris Reichhelm: In some of your decisions and in some of your thinking around what's going to work and what's not going to work.
• 34:12
  Priya Perumal: Mmm.
• 34:15
  Chris Reichhelm: Does it make you more impatient?
• 34:17
  Priya Perumal: Uh, not really.
• 34:20
  Priya Perumal: I, I, I like this because, uh, uh, okay, so this is a company and we have a vision, uh, and, uh, we have some goals and, uh, we have this team, we fixed this, uh, goals and vision together.
• 34:35
  Priya Perumal: So I know, like, where we are heading.
• 34:37
  Priya Perumal: Uh, this is something I choose it and I want to develop, right?
• 34:42
  Priya Perumal: And then, uh, the thing is, I want By
• 34:44
  Chris Reichhelm: joining, by joining the company, you choose to develop this product.
• 34:48
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 34:48
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, I have that in my hand now that I want to develop and I want to create this impact.
• 34:54
  Priya Perumal: So we have a clear picture how and where this is heading into and what kind of impact it's gonna Create to the society and whatever.
• 35:04
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, in, in, in university it's more like, okay, uh, I, I have a set of, uh, uh, like, uh, knowledge or the skill set, but I can work in different field and I can work on different materials.
• 35:20
  Priya Perumal: So it's not like I'm focused on particular thing and I won't do anything else.
• 35:25
  Priya Perumal: I just, uh, will be, uh, developing this particular thought.
• 35:29
  Priya Perumal: For example, I was working on mining and urban mining residues, which means I can work on recycled concrete, I can work on any mine tailings, I can work on municipal solid waste incinerated residues, so there is a lot of options.
• 35:42
  Priya Perumal: But here we have a focus.
• 35:44
  Priya Perumal: Okay, I'm gonna work on this recycled concrete and I'm gonna make it work in the field and I have in next year, this is gonna be in the field, in the market that people gonna use it.
• 35:56
  Priya Perumal: So, I, I, I like that because then this is practical that I, I'm not just, uh, doing bits and pieces of different things, but I have a focus on doing something that's going to work.
• 36:08
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 36:09
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 36:10
  Chris Reichhelm: If you were, um, I like the way you framed that.
• 36:13
  Chris Reichhelm: That's, I think, you know, I think that's, uh, I think that's very insightful.
• 36:19
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, if you were speaking to other would be chief scientists or other researchers inside of universities or other labs.
• 36:27
  Chris Reichhelm: Who are thinking about getting into a startup, who are thinking about joining a startup.
• 36:34
  Chris Reichhelm: What advice would you give them, or what, what would you share with them?
• 36:40
  Chris Reichhelm: What are the big lessons?
• 36:41
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, straight away, it is not for everyone, for sure.
• 36:46
  Priya Perumal: Uh, so, um, if you don't, uh, like this, uh, uncertainty, then it's not for you.
• 36:55
  Priya Perumal: Uh, you should be able to sustain that.
• 36:58
  Priya Perumal: There would be tension at times.
• 37:00
  Priya Perumal: Uh, you, you may know that when I joined C2CA that, uh, I was said that I may not have a salary after a year until otherwise if we close the funding.
• 37:10
  Priya Perumal: So There is always the risk of like, we have to keep finding the funding, but at least in Finland, it's the same case.
• 37:17
  Priya Perumal: Like I said, I have to keep running for my funding.
• 37:21
  Priya Perumal: Uh, but, uh, normally you get it for four years, so at least it is, uh, that way.
• 37:27
  Priya Perumal: Uh, so, uh, this is also same in the industrial setup, uh, that you have to be in that tension of bringing the money, especially if it is a startup.
• 37:36
  Priya Perumal: Um, and, uh, uh, as a chief scientist, the more challenging part would not be, uh, that you are working in the science, but it's more about keeping the team together and making them focused on one particular goal.
• 37:52
  Priya Perumal: objective, because the whole team has to work for one piece of, uh, um, objective or the focus point would be, uh, very clear in the startup, which is different in academia, or it is difficult for a researcher also to be like that.
• 38:10
  Priya Perumal: We get distracted in several things, normally as a researcher, when we are developing some product, we may get Several ideas.
• 38:17
  Priya Perumal: Uh, so it is important that, uh, as a CSO, the chief scientist has to keep the team together and work on that particular objective so we grow together.
• 38:28
  Priya Perumal: Um, so this would be my, uh, advice if somebody wants to take up the journey that I am now.
• 38:38
  Chris Reichhelm: And how do you, so again, I love that last point you've just made.
• 38:43
  Chris Reichhelm: Because, from many clients over the years, I have heard how difficult It is to keep researchers focused
• 38:52
  Priya Perumal: on
• 38:52
  Chris Reichhelm: the core objectives.
• 38:53
  Chris Reichhelm: How do you do it?
• 38:56
  Priya Perumal: So now, uh, I don't have a very big team, so it's not so tough for me to keep them, uh, on track.
• 39:03
  Priya Perumal: So we used to communicate frequently and we agreed to tasks that are with some deadlines.
• 39:10
  Priya Perumal: Uh, we, yeah, it's more about communicating, uh, frequently with them and be clear on the objectives that is expected from them.
• 39:18
  Priya Perumal: It's not so tough, and I'm also a people person, naturally, so, uh, it's tough.
• 39:24
  Priya Perumal: It was not so tough for me.
• 39:26
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 39:27
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 39:28
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 39:28
  Chris Reichhelm: But that you want, and I suppose, well, let me ask it instead of supposing, does it matter where you are in terms of your technology development?
• 39:42
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, and what I mean by that is at the very early stage, when you're trying to create solutions, you're still defining your solution.
• 39:53
  Chris Reichhelm: It almost feels like you need a little bit of that distraction in your researchers to, you know, to find some solutions.
• 40:01
  Chris Reichhelm: We can't always work in a linear
• 40:02
  Priya Perumal: path to
• 40:04
  Chris Reichhelm: innovate.
• 40:04
  Chris Reichhelm: You know, some of the, you know, we've heard so many times of innovation coming off from, coming about because of, you know, because we, It went down a different road, a different path, because we got distracted.
• 40:18
  Chris Reichhelm: But as, so is it, so are those distractions more valuable at that early stage?
• 40:26
  Chris Reichhelm: But when you are progressing along the TRL journey, let's say you're getting to six and seven, You're thinking about commercialization soon.
• 40:36
  Chris Reichhelm: Does the, are the distractions much less helpful then?
• 40:40
  Priya Perumal: Yes.
• 40:41
  Priya Perumal: Um, I mean, you put it in a right way.
• 40:44
  Priya Perumal: Uh, actually, yeah, we do need that distraction, but it should not be like unplanned.
• 40:49
  Priya Perumal: It should be something that, uh, we should have, uh, Planned way of distraction.
• 40:54
  Priya Perumal: So we should know like, uh, we should know the limits and also in which direction the distraction should be.
• 41:01
  Priya Perumal: It's not like randomly you can get distracted in different, uh, different prospects.
• 41:07
  Priya Perumal: So, um, yeah, this, this is what I said, like as a chief scientist, you should also able to direct your team in a way that, so they will have still freedom to explore within the limits.
• 41:19
  Priya Perumal: Like if a researcher is focusing on uh, particular element, then they can, they have their freedom.
• 41:27
  Priya Perumal: Uh, so I don't say how, how they have to do it.
• 41:30
  Priya Perumal: I don't say like, they have to follow this route.
• 41:33
  Priya Perumal: They can take any route, but they have to reach that destination.
• 41:36
  Priya Perumal: So that, that's important.
• 41:38
  Priya Perumal: So they cannot get distracted to reach different paths, uh, I mean, different places, so the place, the destination should be that, but they can take different routes so they can have that distraction.
• 41:49
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 41:50
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 41:51
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:52
  Chris Reichhelm: Okay.
• 41:53
  Chris Reichhelm: So, so you give them some flexibility, some freedom, regardless, I guess, of where they're at on that TRL journey.
• 41:59
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 42:00
  Chris Reichhelm: They can play a little bit, but ultimately, especially as you progress further along, as you get closer to commercialization, you need that objective in there.
• 42:09
  Priya Perumal: Especially for a startup.
• 42:10
  Priya Perumal: We have to get to this point.
• 42:11
  Priya Perumal: We may not have that luxury of, uh, uh, having, uh, that many distractions, right?
• 42:16
  Priya Perumal: Because it's like a investor's funding and we are answerable for that.
• 42:21
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 42:22
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 42:23
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 42:25
  Chris Reichhelm: Let me ask, um, a different type of question.
• 42:29
  Chris Reichhelm: How has it been as a woman in this field as a chief scientist?
• 42:35
  Chris Reichhelm: Is it an, is it an issue?
• 42:37
  Chris Reichhelm: Is it a thing?
• 42:39
  Chris Reichhelm: Is it a silly question to even have to ask?
• 42:42
  Chris Reichhelm: How do you feel about it?
• 42:43
  Priya Perumal: No, that's a great question.
• 42:44
  Priya Perumal: Uh, I appreciate that you asked it.
• 42:46
  Priya Perumal: Um, so, um, I mean, in, uh, in general, I can say, like, uh, in civil engineering, in my field, there is not many women, um, and, um, I, uh, I would, I really want to say, uh, my, uh, mentor, from the University of Oulu, Professor Mirja Illikainen, and she was my mentor from the time I joined the university.
• 43:10
  Priya Perumal: She was a great inspiration for me, because it's also, you know, like when you join a new place from a different country and a culture, you should feel welcomed.
• 43:22
  Priya Perumal: And, uh, her team is very multi, uh, cultural.
• 43:27
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, you don't feel like, uh, you are in, uh, some alien place or you are, you are not treated some, uh, somewhere like, uh, you don't belong or something.
• 43:37
  Priya Perumal: So there is always very good, uh, diversity and, uh, inclusiveness in the group.
• 43:44
  Priya Perumal: Uh, so that gives you also the freedom and confidence to think more and you want to perform better, uh, in that.
• 43:50
  Priya Perumal: kind of environment.
• 43:52
  Priya Perumal: And, uh, she still was the person who's, uh, because I was so confused the first time when I wanted to join a startup when I was still an academic person, uh, because I had to then maybe quit a job to join another one.
• 44:06
  Priya Perumal: So I went to her to ask, like, okay, I got an option like this.
• 44:10
  Priya Perumal: Uh, so she said that, what's stopping you to try that?
• 44:14
  Priya Perumal: Just go So, uh, everybody needs such a person.
• 44:20
  Priya Perumal: In their life who, uh, just tap on your shoulder and say like, okay, you can do it.
• 44:26
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, because, uh, I can't, I mean, I don't know what I would have done being in her position as a, uh, like, um, a mentor or a supervisor, if one of my team member wants to join another job, maybe I would have felt like, okay, you are going to get distracted, I'm going to lose this employee or something, but she always felt like, okay, it's your growth, you have to try it.
• 44:49
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, it's very important and, uh, she always also a person saying that as a woman you have to Do this.
• 44:56
  Priya Perumal: You have to be an example, uh, doing things for the future generation to see you and get an example from you on things.
• 45:05
  Priya Perumal: Uh, seeing that also in C2CA, uh, among the executive role, we have, uh, three executive role and I'm, Uh, the women in representative in that executive committee and, uh, CEO of the company now, Thomas, he is also very, uh, keen about having that kind of inclusiveness and gender equality in the company.
• 45:30
  Priya Perumal: So, uh, I think these days it is, uh, um, becoming better, uh, for women to be in Any place, uh, to have that growth ladder.
• 45:40
  Priya Perumal: It's more about like, uh, getting there and, uh, don't doubt ourself and just do it.
• 45:47
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 45:49
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, I think it's interesting.
• 45:51
  Chris Reichhelm: The point you, you mentioned, uh, it's about being a role model.
• 45:55
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 45:56
  Chris Reichhelm: Because we're still not there in terms of the, you know, in terms of diver in terms of the distribution of diversity across these different fields, particularly in engineering.
• 46:08
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 46:09
  Chris Reichhelm: It's still heavily dominated by men across all different sectors, but, uh, uh, so it's interesting that you feel and that your mentor, uh, communicated the importance of being a role model.
• 46:25
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 46:26
  Chris Reichhelm: For others.
• 46:27
  Chris Reichhelm: And it's, uh, that feels important.
• 46:31
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 46:32
  Priya Perumal: And she's been one for many women like me.
• 46:35
  Priya Perumal: So uh, it's so inspiring about her story.
• 46:39
  Chris Reichhelm: And it works, obviously.
• 46:41
  Priya Perumal: And even now when I sit for different meetings, I could see that I would be only women in many of the meetings.
• 46:48
  Priya Perumal: So yeah.
• 46:49
  Priya Perumal: I feel it, yeah, that there needs to be some changes in the organizations.
• 46:55
  Chris Reichhelm: Are you starting to see it across industrial partners and customers that you're speaking to?
• 47:00
  Priya Perumal: Yes.
• 47:01
  Priya Perumal: It's especially because this is construction field, right?
• 47:04
  Priya Perumal: So yeah.
• 47:05
  Priya Perumal: But if I sit for some R& D meeting, even in the industry.
• 47:10
  Priya Perumal: The R& D team mostly comprises of a lot of women, so there is that clear difference, like when it comes to business development, commercial and plant operations, then it's more like men, even investment.
• 47:26
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 47:26
  Chris Reichhelm: But R& D, it's a little better.
• 47:29
  Priya Perumal: Yeah
• 47:30
  Chris Reichhelm: well, that's a start at least.
• 47:31
  Priya Perumal: We are brainies.
• 47:35
  Chris Reichhelm: That's right.
• 47:36
  Chris Reichhelm: That's right.
• 47:37
  Priya Perumal: Yeah.
• 47:37
  Chris Reichhelm: That's a start.
• 47:38
  Chris Reichhelm: That's great.
• 47:39
  Chris Reichhelm: Priya, I've really enjoyed this.
• 47:41
  Chris Reichhelm: Thank you so much for joining me.
• 47:43
  Priya Perumal: Oh, that's my pleasure.
• 47:44
  Priya Perumal: Thank you, Chris.
• 47:46
  Chris Reichhelm: You've been listening to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast, brought to you by Deep Tech Leaders.
• 47:52
  Chris Reichhelm: This podcast has been produced by Beauxhaus.
• 47:55
  Chris Reichhelm: You can find out more about us on LinkedIn, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.