Latest / Upland Nation / Pro bird dog trainers Ronnie & Susanna Smith on composure, puppy development and getting the most from your dog

Transcript

Pro bird dog trainers Ronnie & Susanna Smith on composure, puppy development and getting the most from your dog · Upland Nation

0:00
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1:05
now let's get to the show.
1:13
One of the funnest parts about the festive, festive quail
1:15
Classic is seeing old friends who we never get to visit in
1:18
Oklahoma or anywhere else for that matter, although someday
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I'm going to stalk you all down on the prairie somewhere.
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Joining me today will be Susanna Smith, love,
1:32
how am I going to do that? From now on, confusing
1:35
everybody after 20 years of marriage, I'm finally converting
1:38
to Smith,
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okay, all right. And and the reason is Ronnie, I hope, and
1:45
we'll be getting to them in just a moment. But, you know, it's
1:48
been such a great pheasant fest, and I got to just thank
1:51
everybody who makes it all possible, literally, if it
1:53
wasn't for support for Mid Valley, clays.com, Trulock
1:57
chokes.com, Purina, Pro Plan, sport, dog food. Nice vests, you
2:02
two sage and breaker gun care products and cable gangs tie out
2:06
systems and pointer shotguns. We couldn't be here having all this
2:10
fun. And speaking of fun, Susanna, what's been the
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highlight of this gathering for you? Oh, gee,
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just the people you know, getting together with everybody
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we don't get to see throughout the year. And it's just, it's a
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family, isn't it, though, a close knit family.
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Yeah, I some people remember Kevin Bacon in that line that
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maybe he he made a few years ago, about six degrees of
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separation. We got about a half a degree here, don't we? Ronnie,
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what's the top line for you? What do you get out of coming
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to this thing? You know, I think it's, it's the the camaraderie,
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it's the is the common interest that we all have, you know,
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being out in the field and in letting that feed our soul and
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and the dogs are major part of that. It's just neat to be
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around folks that that have same beliefs that you do.
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Yeah, isn't that the truth? And you know, it's funny. I when I
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sit here, I get to watch a few dogs go back and forth all the
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time when I'm walking around, I'm always over there in that
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corner where all the dog clubs are. And I don't I've done a
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couple experiments in another social venue recently, usually a
3:23
bar at night around here with humans. But I wonder if the
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energy level and the camaraderie would be the same if there
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weren't any live dogs in this building. I think it would
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change. How about you dogs
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bring us all together? Absolutely. Yeah. It's like a
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magnet for us all.
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I agree. I agree, and you guys live with them all day, every
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day. It's still fun for you.
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Yeah, I tell you what we're we've kind of restructured our
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life. Scott, where it's we're enjoying my job. I'll speak for
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myself. I'm enjoying my job more now than than I think I ever
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have really, yeah, we're spending more time at home.
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Yeah, and just love where we live, really enjoying it.
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Well, you know, you know, I presume everybody knows who you
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are, but I ought to just interject that you folks are,
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are incredible dog trainers. You've been a pro guide in some
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incredible places. By the way, I pushed a bunch of four sixes
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cattle a couple years ago. But, but, but You're legendary
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trainers and and, you know, there are probably husband and
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wife dog training teams out there, but you're one of the
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most notable for a bunch of reasons. You you turn out
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incredible bird hunting dogs, and here you are telling me now
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that it's still fun and still good to do Suzanne. Why is that?
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Wait? Touched on that this morning when we were doing our
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seminar training dogs. It's not a scientific formula, it's an
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art. It's a gut feeling that you develop. So every dog that we
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work is a challenge for us. We have to figure out where that
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dog is mentally, what their perspective is on the world, and
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then figure out how to help that individual. So every dog is
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different. We learn from every dog. So it never gets stagnant.
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It's always challenging.
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You know? That brings up something that quite often I
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encounter, the opposite. There's a whole I'm going to use a word,
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and I promise I'll never use it again, but I can't think of a
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better one. Many dog trainers are dogmatic. They have a way,
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and everybody fits that way, or else they wash out. They they
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say they're untrainable. Things like that. Doesn't sound like
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that's the Smith way.
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Well, you know, I, I think the psychology of it is because,
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because you're training to the mind, right? So paying attention
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to the dog's mindset, creating the mindset that it is that you
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want, as long as you, as you focus on that everything else
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will come together. Well.
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So how do you do that? Because this is the magic, and I cite
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you too in particular a lot, cousin Rick and Uncle Delmer
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too. I never got to meet your dad, but you, literally and
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figuratively, look at dogs differently. Is there something
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in particular that you see in dogs when you're training, or if
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it's time to teach this skill, do you look for this behavior
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before you introduce it, or while you're doing is there any
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relationship there?
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Yeah, that's that's a fantastic question, because that's what
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we've been talking about this weekend. Is when Ronnie and I
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are working dogs, no matter what stage in their life they're at.
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We're looking at the balance between their mindset, their
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focus on hunting, and the training. If, if you have too
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much training and not enough focus, you're going to have a
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very obedient dog, but you're essentially going to be out
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there on a stroll with a with a pet. If you've got, if your your
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focus and your prey drive override your training, then
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we've all been out there with those puppies. They were out of
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control. We couldn't, couldn't handle them. Don't make
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anything. We say doesn't make one bit of difference. They're
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going to go out there and just have fun, and we can't control
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them. So when Ronnie and I are training dogs, we're really
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focusing on bringing those two factors in balance, where they
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have that, that real successful mindset, they're confident,
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they're composed, and they are focused on finding birds, but
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they're also receptive to the training and thinking about the
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training that we've instilled with them.
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Well, how do you do that? I mean, what's the order there?
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Did you Did she just describe it Ronnie and in the right way? Is
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it go from that to that, to that? Or is it different every
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time?
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Well, yeah, every dog is different, and every day is
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different. Yeah, you know, so. And I think that's like Sue said
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earlier, that's what keeps it so interesting. That's why we've
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not gotten bored or jaded with this, because it's relationship
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based. You know, when that dog comes in, it's a relationship
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that you develop with that dog. Sure, we're teachers and we're
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going to we have a goal to achieve it, but you learn that
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personality, how that personality relaxes, reacts to
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stimuli, and you just, you cultivate a relationship.
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You know, that's easier said than done. And we describe a lot
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of people, you know, in all of us have been in the horse world,
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and there's a lot of whisperers, and some are legit, and some are
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just posers. And I've used the term, and I promise not to use
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it again, but there are people who they're dog whisperers, and
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I'd put you all in that category, but, but you're not
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whispering to the dog. You're looking at the dog and and
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figure coming to some some conclusions based on what a dog
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is doing, a young dog in particular. And we're going to
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talk about the performance mindset of a dog. So starting
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with a younger dog, what do you look for when it comes to
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cultivating the performance mindset?
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Well, the first thing we're going to look for, you know,
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say, if we're looking at buying a dog, yeah, we're looking at
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the three core bird dog behaviors. Does that dog exhibit
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that are they able to be composed? Are they able to are
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they confident? Are they able to be compliant and listen to
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little cues? Are they receptive to that? Because that's the
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baseline for everything that we're going to do with that dog
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layer on. So that's where we start. And then, you know, we're
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going to take that puppy out in the field and see how. They
10:00
develop. See how aware of scent they are, how driven they are to
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find birds, and that's going to dictate their future training
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and how we go about it.
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How about with a more mature dog? Ronnie, is there a
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difference? I mean, if somebody brings you a dog that's 12
10:17
months old, are you going to look at different things or the
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same things, and hope that they develop those.
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Yeah, we're, you know, basically we're, we're looking at the same
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things, but it's different. So we we want, if that 12 month old
10:30
dog we obviously, we want a dog that has a high parade drive,
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and we want a dog that's well socialized, that can mitigate
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stressors, you know, has quick refill but, but then too, you
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know, it could even be, as we start the obedience work, right?
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If it's not a high prey driven dog, then we may do one
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obedience workout to in overload on the
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bird workout, okay, yeah, right, yeah.
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So we're playing to each individual dog, trying to find
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that balance.
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Yeah, and of course, you're expert at it. You see dozens, if
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not hundreds, of dogs a year. So you can develop a perspective on
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what dogs need, what things the one that has resonated with me
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for a couple years, since we had this discussion, probably in
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wherever, Kansas City or Omaha or someplace, is the idea of
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composure, a high prey dog and a composed dog, they sound like.
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What is that word? Oxymoron? Absolutely So. Susanna, how do
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we compose or help a dog compose just a little bit more
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Well, I think that that's the challenge, because we do want
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that supercharged, high prey drive animal that is going to go
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out there and and give us 110% in the field every time. But we
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also need them to be able to stand stock still on point or in
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a backing situation. We also need them to be quiet and calm
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while we're traveling with them, quiet and calm in the house. So
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we are asking them to to exhibit both extremes. So I think if we,
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if we start cultivating that composure skill, because it is a
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skill set at a young age. You know, we start with our puppies
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when we're having them to stand beside us, instead of jump up
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all around us and bite on us and lick on us and everything we
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have them stand beside us calmly before we love on them, and
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because they learn through what is rewarding, whatever behavior
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gets them what they want, that's what they're going to repeat.
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Yeah, so we want them to stand calmly, and then we'll love on
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them, and we'll love them up and show them that that's the
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behavior we want and that that just follows that dog throughout
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life. As we're building that skill, we go to them in the
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kennel. We want them to stand still, and we practice stopping
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in the field, even if there's no birds, just practice stops
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developing that skill where they can stand still and be composed
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and wait for the next cue, because they need to be able to
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do that in a quiet situation, before you add the distraction
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and amplify everything with a bird being in the picture.
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And, Ronnie, you drove this home to me a few years back. We were
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probably at a seminar in Western Oregon, I think, in and the idea
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of a dog that wants to pull on the lead when you're walking
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them at heel and or even off lead, and when they get ahead of
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you, you stop. They're not getting what they want, which is
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to go that way. They'd rather come back. And often with me,
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it's from there he comes back in circles around and figures it
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out, I can't go forward until I've stopped. Give me some more
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examples of those sort of things, particularly in, you
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know, on the hunting and the bird contact side. How do we do
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that if we got a dog that is really amped up, and we love
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that at some point, but at another point, like Susanna
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said, they need to hold still while we circle around and walk
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in on the bird. How can we train something like that?
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Sure, and you know, I'll even step back a little bit if, if
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that there's moderation in everything. So as you're
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exposing this young dog to birds trying to build a prey drive, if
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you get to a point that that, you see that your prey drive may
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start to be unmanageable, right? The dog's too much prey drive.
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Then you need to back off. Don't, don't just keep going.
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But let's say we've got this dog that we're we have in training,
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and he has a crazy high prey drive every aspect of our
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contact with him. We're going to work on that, that composure. It
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goes from like Sue said, opening the door to the kennel to having
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that dog stand perfectly still for us to snap a rope on him and
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put a command lead on him, or an E collar, whatever it is, and
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then we're going to heal him back to the truck or the
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trailer, and when we get out to the field, we're going to open
14:59
the door. Or and have that dog stand composed while we put the
15:03
lead or the check board or the the E collar on them, and and
15:07
when we jump that dog out, it will be on command. And then
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we'll probably heal that dog out away from the truck to a point
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we're trying to get a joined up mindset if you're if you're
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fighting that dog when you open the door to get the collar on or
15:22
put his boots on, he is in a self hunt mode. He is not of a
15:28
joined up mindset, and he might become joined up once he got
15:32
gets the edge knocked off. But it doesn't have to be that way.
15:37
If, what if we have the opposite? And it's funny, but,
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you know, I have a bunch of folks come over summer evenings,
15:45
and we mess around. We call it Training, but it's basically a
15:48
training club with a drinking problem, or is it the other way
15:52
around? Anyway, there are a lot of dogs who, first off, don't
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have a lot of bird contacts under their collar. Second off.
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Need to be more prey driven. What do we do?
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There's no, no substitute for birds. You know, we've got to
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get them that necessary bird contact. And there's, there's
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windows of opportunity too. We start introducing our young
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puppies to birds at six, eight weeks of age. We control the
16:25
situation so they can be successful, and it's a fun
16:28
experience for them. Obviously, we don't want a bird flying up
16:31
in their face and scaring them at that stage, so we control
16:35
that, but we start to introduce them to birds at a young age,
16:38
and that's a big window of opportunity, and every dog is
16:42
different as they mature, you're going to find that different
16:44
dogs mature at different stages. So I can't say, well, at six
16:48
months, you have to have this many bird contact. We like to
16:53
continue to put birds in front of our dogs as they grow up, and
16:57
just watch the development. At some point that light is going
17:00
to come on, and you'll see it where that dog switches. He's
17:03
like, whoa. I kind of like this, yeah, but it takes lot of
17:07
opportunity, yeah, just keeping it in front of them. And
17:10
eventually that that light's going to come on. And once they
17:14
get that, that window of opportunity where they get the
17:16
bird contact, then you need to sustain some, some
17:20
opportunities. Keep putting them out there so they can maintain
17:23
that focus.
17:25
As the dog matures, Ronnie, the bird contacts will be different
17:30
than with a little puppy like that. What are, what is the
17:37
condition, the state of the bird at, say, 810, 12 weeks, four
17:44
months, 16 months, the the first birds are probably dead,
17:49
probably frozen, or are they?
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Well, yeah, they can be. You can even take little eight or nine
17:57
week old puppies and again, different breeds react
18:01
differently, like our little eight week old pointer puppies,
18:04
a lot of times are more Bravo than our eight week old Brittany
18:08
puppies, and that's just just breed. But you can take those
18:13
little puppies, and if you've got some some quail that aren't
18:18
flying very well, they work really well for those pups,
18:22
because one, they're not going to they're so young, they're not
18:24
going to be able to catch that bird, but those birds are not
18:28
going to fly far enough. So let's say that that you have
18:31
some birds running around, and you bring a little puppy in
18:33
there, and he sees that bird, and as the bird runs away, the
18:37
prey Chase kicks in on this little domesticated predator,
18:40
right? So, so he pursues. He goes forward, and then the bird
18:44
gets up and flies 20 feet, 10 feet. Well, now the puppy saw
18:49
that bird go down, so he knows there's a bird there. So when he
18:54
goes in that area, there's real focus and intent on finding that
18:58
bird, and he will find it right? So it really a scenario like
19:05
that really teaches those little dogs to use their nose and
19:10
locate that scent where, if you just took him out there with
19:13
birds planted, he doesn't even know why he's out there, but,
19:16
but if you can play off the predators, the predator side,
19:20
they develop quicker.
19:22
So the big question with me is, okay, between the little dog
19:27
with the bad flying quail and then out in the field with birds
19:31
he doesn't know are there is some sort of a transition? And
19:36
I'm hung up on that quite often, not just with this learning
19:40
scenario, but with so many others, there's, there's a
19:42
linkage that I haven't made. What's the next step in that
19:48
evolution for a youngish dog?
19:50
Yeah, so your your objective with this bird exposure is, is
19:56
to take a dog to the point that you. That they know why they're
20:01
out there. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. So when their feet hit the
20:04
ground and they go through that cover, they are again focused
20:08
and intent on finding birds. They're familiar with their
20:11
environment. They're over the smelling the flowers and eating
20:15
the grass. They know why they're out there. And when you can get
20:18
to that level, then you can harness that through training
20:22
and
20:22
what birds you put in front of them, you know that's going to
20:25
depend on on what your availability is, of course,
20:28
yeah, that's true even with Ronnie and I. You know, there
20:30
are times of the year where we have Johnny house birds that we
20:33
can turn loose as a covey, yeah? And we can get dogs in them in
20:37
springtime. That doesn't work so well when they're laying eggs
20:40
and molding, and that's just not as good of a situation. So
20:44
everybody just has to be able to use the birds that they have
20:47
available. We use, say, with different different times of the
20:52
year. We may be on Johnny house birds with dogs as they grow up,
20:55
you know, throughout their first year. Or we may go to pigeons.
20:58
We may go to pigeons in a tip up, and then pretty soon
21:02
transition to pigeons and a launcher. It just kind of
21:04
depends on the individual and the owner's situation, what they
21:07
what resources they have, yeah,
21:09
and, you know, I lament it over and over again, but I, you know,
21:12
I help out at a lot of especially a lot of NAB to
21:15
natural ability training days and tests. And the sad part is,
21:22
many of those dogs haven't met a bird until that day. Easier said
21:29
than done. We know all that, but let's go back to the performance
21:33
mindset again and what my dogs will never be finished but a
21:41
more mature dog, what is, what are we doing at that age, you
21:46
know, a year or two, maybe even older, to maintain that mindset
21:52
with a mature
21:52
dog, right? Well, you, you hope in there are, there are some
21:59
dogs that are focused on game every day. Yeah, right. And
22:05
those dogs can be difficult to live with, right? They're
22:08
hunting, hunting birds or squirrels,
22:11
everybody, understatement of the day.
22:15
So those dogs typically, even, even if they've laid off all
22:19
summer, when you go out in the spring, they're they're thinking
22:22
birds, they're thinking game, right? And then they're there.
22:25
There are those dogs that that lose focus and get maybe a
22:29
little lazy and maybe put on the weight. So we will caution
22:35
people that if you have a dog that has a tendency to lose
22:37
focus, before you go on that big trip to the prairies of Montana,
22:43
go to your local preserve and getting focused. And then two,
22:46
there's, there's, as far as the performance goes, you know,
22:50
there's you want when the dog is at their their absolute best is
22:55
when they're a half a step from being too, too steady, too
22:59
focused on the rules, or a half a step on the other side from
23:03
being out of control and self hunting. And that's that, that's
23:06
that line that you that you try to, you know, you vacillate back
23:09
and forth on, and typically you can only stay there for short
23:13
periods of time. So competition dogs, you know, you try to peak
23:17
to that level of performance because it's hard to hold for
23:20
long periods.
23:21
Yeah, I think you. Susanna described it a while back. I
23:26
made my memory is nowhere near what it was yesterday, let alone
23:30
last year. You want one wheel off the rails, not all four of
23:36
them. Just one off the rails. I just love that idea. And you
23:41
talk about peaking, if it's a field trial, you know you want
23:46
to peak that day or that week, maybe, but, but how do you know?
23:53
What if he doesn't? What if you are pretty confident he peaked?
23:58
I think the past tense of peak should be poke, but that's
24:02
another story. If he peaked three weeks ago, how do we get
24:08
him back into that performance mindset?
24:10
Well, and you may not be able to, yeah, but one of the things
24:14
that we do is if we have a training field that we've been
24:18
using consistently, and the dogs just kind of getting lackluster,
24:22
going through that same old routine. We make sure that we
24:25
pick up and we go to a different location, so things are fresh
24:28
and clean and more fun, because it's like us going to the
24:32
classroom every day. We walk in like, okay, here we go again,
24:35
with a GO TO field trip. Do something different. We're
24:37
perked up and we're a little more in tune, so we'll use that
24:41
maybe more bird contact, maybe loosen up on the rules a little
24:45
bit, you know, let them come unwound just a little bit, and
24:48
then try to tighten them back up right before we get to that,
24:52
that critical point where we want them to peak. And that's
24:54
what we do. So we take a class of tune up dogs every fall, dogs
24:59
that we have trained at. Past, and we get them ready for
25:03
hunting season, for when their owner picks them up. So the
25:06
first, first two weeks or so, are really heavily oriented on
25:10
obedience. We're going through the core bird dog behavior.
25:13
Stand still, come to you. Go with you. Make sure that we can
25:18
cue for those behaviors mechanically with a rope with a
25:21
lead, make sure the dog understands it with an E collar.
25:24
Make sure they've not gotten any confusion there. And then we go
25:27
to really focusing on applying those in the field and that we
25:32
try to get that, that peak, that perfect balance right about the
25:36
time the owner picks them up to go hunting with them, so they're
25:39
super focused and super obedient at the same time.
25:43
You know, if somebody had only heard the first part of that
25:47
answer, they'd think, well, you know, obedience is what you
25:51
know, we see it at, you know, whether it's the AKC dog shows
25:56
or something, it's, it's a different type of obedience, but
25:59
it is obedience, like you said, standing still, going away,
26:02
coming back. Do you teach that the same way we teach a dog to
26:08
heal or sit or
26:10
whatever, yeah, you know the the healing, the healing, why it's
26:15
so important? Well, just standing still, yeah, just
26:18
standing still beside you, is, is, is is super, super
26:22
important, because if that dog is not able to to compose to the
26:28
level, to stand beside you on a loose lead, then then the woe
26:33
bird work honoring is going to be a problem. The dog's going to
26:38
constantly be moving. The mind is going to be unsettled. That's
26:41
going to require more input from you to make those corrections.
26:44
So we really focus on on things being exactly right, even the
26:49
healing, that's the healing is, is the onset to going with you
26:54
in the field? Yeah, right, yeah. So if that dog will walk off
26:58
lead heel, then that, then it's just a progression to the field,
27:03
and in maintaining that through the year, leads to long term
27:08
behavior, deep rooted behavior.
27:11
I talked about that what I learned from you about dogs on
27:16
heel getting ahead and I just stop, but there's got to be an
27:20
opposite and equal reaction, According to Newton, I think
27:28
what's the payoff for compliance?
27:33
Well, dogs are going to do what is the most comfortable or the
27:35
most rewarding. So if they get a cue, when they go they forge
27:40
ahead of us, they get a cue. They they learn from the
27:43
release. The release is what they're looking for. So if they
27:47
pull ahead, and you turn it, you go the other way. And they feel
27:51
that that cue on the neck, like, oh, wait a minute, I'm behind. I
27:54
got to catch up with my pack leader. It works on the mindset.
27:57
And they realize that, oh, when I'm in the right place,
28:00
following my pack leader, mirroring the movements my pack
28:04
leader, then the lead is always
28:06
loose, yeah, yeah. And and compliance is really a path
28:12
toward what they would describe as something like freedom, doing
28:19
what they like, what you know, if he, if my dogs healing with
28:23
me, and he's doing a great job, I take, I take the lead off, and
28:27
what does he get to do in, in your teaching situations?
28:31
Well, and it's a joined up mindset that you're really
28:34
looking for. It's that dog, it's that, it's that pack mentality,
28:39
right? So he is a pack animal. And if he, if he recognizes you
28:43
and looks to you as as the leader of this pack, it's that.
28:47
It's that willingness, yeah, that willingness that we're
28:50
looking for
28:53
deep psychology. We could go on forever. I know you got to be in
28:57
another stage real soon, but it is food for thought, and I'm
29:02
learning every time I talk with you too, someday I'll pester you
29:06
in Oklahoma, instead of on the floor of the pheasant Fest and
29:08
quail classic, we would love that. Ronnie Susanna Smith,
29:12
always a pleasure. Thanks for being a part of the upland
29:15
nation podcast.
29:17
Thanks for having us. Yeah, absolutely you.
29:28
Oh, it's always so fun to talk with them. I wish they could
29:30
stay but Off they go to yet another obligation. Ronnie,
29:36
Susannah, thank you so much for being part of the upland nation
29:39
podcast, and thank you all the folks who make it possible. That
29:44
would be everybody from Pro Plan sport, dog food, Ronnie and
29:47
Susanna, of course, sponsored by them as well. It's one big happy
29:51
family. And the reason so many pro trainers, incredible bird
29:57
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whatever it is, learn more about the learning situations
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available at Mid Valley clays.com. Well, thank you,
32:15
Ronnie Susannah Smith, for all your insights over the years. I
32:19
feel like you're one of my family here, and I hope you feel
32:22
the same about me. And speaking of family, all of you as well.
32:27
Thanks for being a part of the upland nation podcast. Whether
32:30
you just listen, whether you tell somebody else about us, or
32:34
you contribute to the discussion and share your pictures on the
32:38
social media, it's all good, isn't it absolutely and thank
32:43
you to those who make this physically possible, oh, and
32:46
fiscally possible too. Those are our sponsors, Purina Pro Plan,
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sport, dog food, Mid Valley, clays and shooting school,
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Trulock choke tubes, pointer shotguns and cable gang stakeout
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systems and please sign up for the newsletter at fine bird
33:06
hunting spots.com. From the floor of the national pheasant
33:11
Fest and quail classic. I'm Scott Linden in the pike gear
33:15
booth. Thanks for listening to the upland nation podcast. You.