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Veganitarianism · Why We Do What We Do

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  You're listening to Why We Do what we Do. Welcome to Why We Do
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  what we Do. I am your Broccoli host Abraham and I am your Satan
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  host Shane Hail Satan. Oh, good one. Yeah, we are psychology
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  podcast. We talked about what people do and why they do the things that
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  they do, and that's why we titled our podcast why we Do what we
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  Do In fact. Yeah, and today we're gonna talk about veganism, which
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  is the thing that is near and gear to both of our hearts and something
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  that surprisingly, I've spent a lot of time around. Actually, at the
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  majority of my life, I've spent around veganism, which I realized just now
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  as I was talking, speaking the sentence out loud. So that's a wow,
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  a weird thing to think about. I definitely did not. It's quite
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  the opposite. In fact, if you are still with us, thank you
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  for being here, said said the words veganism lost some people, but potentially,
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  but you're here, so thank you for joining us. All of our
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  folks in Texas are just done. That's right, possibly Florida. Yeah,
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  but anyway, we're here, Thank you for being here, and we're going
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  to be talking about that. Yes, there's a thing that people do and
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  that's why we talk about it. But if you'd like to support the show,
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  if you like what you're here today, you should like and subscribe,
• 1:15
  leave a rating and review by some merch join us on Patreon. You can
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  start a new diet that does not need animals and call it why we do
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  what we do or why we don't what we do it we don't do diet.
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  It could be why we chew what we chew. There you go.
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  I've missed a little thanking for it on that anyway. I'll talk more about
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  the ways you can support us at the end of this discussion. But if
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  you're listening to this on the day in which it were releases, this is
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  September sixth, twenty twenty three, and I would just like to acknowledge Happy
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  National Read a Book Day. Ah yes, I WI should be every day,
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  but you know, yeah, it's a good start. It's also National
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  Fight Procrastination Days. So if you are worried about starting a book, maybe
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  today's to do it. Great celebrate both days. It's Great Egg Toss Day
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  whatever. That yeah, fun, which also doesn't align very well with the
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  topic. Todays National Coffee ice cream Day, which big fan. Yes,
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  not that hard to make vegan. It's Jan Mashtami day, yes, and
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  this one you you were able to give an explanation for Shane. So this
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  is a celebration of life for Krishna and Indian holiday. Yeah. So for
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  our Indian listeners, well see you. Yeah. It is National color Blind
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  Awareness Day, which is good. I love seeing those videos of people getting
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  those glasses that help see colors, Like for folks that are like severely color
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  blind and they get to see those specific glasses that help with that, it's
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  super cool. I had a boss one time that was profoundly color blind,
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  and what he would do is, whenever he would pick out outfits at stores,
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  he would always just grab whatever was on a mannequin. He would say,
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  I'll take that in these sizes, and so he would match them up
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  that way, and so he wouldn't have to ask for help. He just
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  picked I want that outfit, whatever that is. Yeah. I have known
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  someone also who had pretty extensive color blind list. I'm really curious how those
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  glasses work. And I think we've been talking about doing color blindness for a
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  while, so maybe we need to do just an episode about color blindness and
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  the glasses that exist for that. Yeah, yeah, for sure if you're
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  celebrating in September. The months that we're looking at our National Guide Dog Months,
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  which is you know, all dogs are good dogs, but you know
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  guide dogs are sons of special It is Whole Grains Month, which does align
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  with our topic today and does not align with the opposite of our topic today,
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  that's true. It's also National Square Dancing Month, which does not align
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  with our topic today. Doesn't not align though. I can't imagine a lot
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  of vegan square dancers, but if you're a vegan square dancer, please email
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  us. You make a fair point, but the people are complex. It
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  is Leukemia and Lymphoma Awareness Month, so now you know there's leukemia and lymphoma
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  and it's bad. Yep, it's real bad. I'll read a new book
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  month, so like if you can't start today, starts this month. Yeah,
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  a new one specific way. Yeah. And finally, National Suicide Prevention
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  Month again should be every month, but acknowledging that that is the current month.
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  Yes, absolutely, Okay, As we said, we are talking about
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  veganism and stay with us, stay with us where although we both have a
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  special connection to veganism, which is that we both practice a vegan diet.
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  Yeah, we'll have things to say about that. This is going to be
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  a lot more history and psychology than it is preaching. Not no preaching,
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  but mostly the science part. Yeah, we're just gonna give you information on
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  this. So today we're going to discover what the Pythagoras theorem, Billie Eilish
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  and professional wrestling all have in common. Sweet, can't wait. I can't
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  wait to find out. So good, All right, let's get into it.
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  Yeah, let's do it. So. Veganism is a philosophy and a
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  lifestyle that means the participant does not eat or use any products that are derived
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  from animals. Someone who adheres to a vegan lifestyle usually makes intentional attempts to
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  avoid any animal products, not just food. Now, I want to I
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  want to be clear about this. One of the things that's really important about
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  this is it attempts. It's not completely refrains, but it is attempts.
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  Because vegans mess up all the time. We mess up all the time,
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  all the time. But that is an important part of this. They make
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  an attempt to not consume any animal products, not just food. Surprisingly difficult
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  to avoid. Two, Like you can find specialty places where you can get
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  non leather belts shoes that contain no leather materials. They're out there, but
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  you do have to look. So it's like and sometimes they're not out there.
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  Sometimes the only option is this thing that has some amount of leather in
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  it. It is just is what it is, you know, Yeah,
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  you kind of get it's stuck with and so but as an example, leathers
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  maybe one people might not always think about. There are oh man, all
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  the different dairies. That's food stuff obviously, but just a lot of things
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  I think a lot of people wouldn't even think of necessarily as being things that
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  one would typically avoid. One actually that occurred to me just now is a
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  lot of times you will see vegans not going to zoos or other amusement parks
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  that have animal exhibits, specifically circus another one. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,
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  there's a lot of interesting kind of like things to unpack within that we're
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  going to talk about all it though. Yeah, so you can actually this
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  isn't in the notes, not what we were planning to talk about, but
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  you could think of the move toward veganism that is not just around food as
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  being a financial one. It is sort of a economic boycott of industries that
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  use animals. Yeah, that's sort of a way of thinking about how how
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  it works. But veganism includes a few other important elements. As we said,
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  dietary is one of them. And so any food consumed by vegan is
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  free of animal products to the extent possible, and these are considered dietary vegans.
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  And yeah, we do get into exactly what those arcs. I think
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  some people don't always know. It was hard to unpack this one a little
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  bit only because like basically just means all the food that you're eating does not
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  have any animal products, no dairy, no milk, no cheese, you
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  know, all the like, no eggs, nothing like that. But also
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  like random buy products of animals as well. So like some parmesan cheeses are
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  not considered vegan, not just by like the fact that they're vegan, but
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  some of them aren't even vegetarian because of how they're duced and like some of
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  the some of the meat products that are put into them. That includes in
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  some cases there's the debate about honey, which we're going to talk about later.
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  That is one that comes up quite often. So, yeah, So
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  basically, any food item that you consume doesn't have any sort of animal byproduct
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  within it. Yeah, again, to the extent possible, yes, yes,
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  as we don't know, is no, exactly. There's also ethical vegans,
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  which means that any product like clothing, food, medicine are not consumed
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  by the person and these folks are considered ethical vegans because they avoid using it
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  because of the harm that it causes the animals. So, like, let's
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  use the example like like different maybe shampoos. There are shampoos that are tested
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  on animals where they might rub the shampoo in the animal's eyes to see how
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  it stings or irritates eyeballs and stuff like that, and which is again,
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  it's just horrible and we're not going to get into all of the horrors that
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  goes on with animal testing and all that, but ethical vegans tend to avoid
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  all products that have any sort of animal testing because of the harm that it
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  causes the animal itself. Right exactly. That was actually a good example because
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  I think a lot of people here are like, well, it's wrong about
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  testing shampoo and animals the way they test it because they tested Yeah, they're
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  not watching a rabbit hair. They're dripping it in their eyeballs. Yeah,
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  I mean you could go volunteer to get tested on and see if it's as
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  safe and happy as it sounds like it would be. How do you think
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  how do you think they know there's no tears? Right? Yeah? So
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  anyway, you're right, And many of those products are labeled specifically it'll say
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  vegan or not tested on animals or something of that nature, so that people
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  can make that choice. Yeah. And then finally there is environmental veganism.
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  This holds the same standard as dietary and ethical vegans, but the primary motivation
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  is related to how damaging industrial farming is in causing irreversible damage and the other
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  industries that essentially depend on animals as a part of manufacturing in some capacity.
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  Yes, so we've got these three different types a lot of times, and
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  maybe this is a good time to kind of unpack our personal experiences with this.
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  Sure, let me start by saying this, I'm not entirely vegan.
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  I try to adhere to a vegan diet as much as I can, but
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  I miss the mark all over the place, not like as as good about
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  that as I can be. Most of that is a dietary, but I
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  do try to avoid harmful products, and I do try to avoid products if
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  I can. And so I started as an ethical vegan because of the harm
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  that came to animals and ethical vegetarian from the harm that came to animals,
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  and then moved into more dietary focuses because that seemed to be the easiest place
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  to kind of inter like, to change my behavior. So that's kind of
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  where I started, was it started with an ethical kind of moral compass and
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  then turned into more of a dietary approach to it. Some of the other
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  stuff kind of came in, like, Oh, I'm glad I'm having this
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  impact. There's like really cool side effects as a result the experience I had
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  and the experience I've heard from others. The experience I had was that I
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  learned about the environmental impacts first. An environment was much more of a concern
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  to me. I didn't it's hard to say this without sounding like a horrible,
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  terrible person. I really did not consider or think that the impacts of
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  the animal industry on animals mattered very much, right, And I don't remember
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  exactly my just vacation for this, but I remember thinking, I love meat,
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  I love dairy, I love the way these things taste. I love
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  them in my foods. I want to try every cuisine on the planet and
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  every type of food, and I saw that as being like a necessary part
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  of that. It means that animals die, said, they end up as
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  my food. Right. The environment very much has concerned me for a long
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  time. And so then when I learned about the impact. And we'll get
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  into this a little bit later, but the whole idea of like, well,
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  just don't eat meat one day a week, right, that was pretty
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  easy, right, And it's to make a long story short, that eventually
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  evolved into a vegetarian diet and then into a more restrictive vegan diet. So,
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  as I said, I started at the position of simply the environmental impacts.
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  But once I was already adhering to that lifestyle, then all of the
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  sudden, all the other parts of it just started to make more sense to
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  me. Then it was like, now I started to actually feel compassion toward
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  animals. Now I started being concerned about the dietary part in terms of health,
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  and so I started issuing some of those animal products that I found in
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  other things. Like not wearing leather, like not using honey, like not
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  tooming things that were like filtered through animal bones, not eating like gelatin as
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  one. A lot of people don't know about, right, And so those
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  were sort of the reasons. And I've heard that from a lot of people,
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  like they'll come in it from one direction and end up sort of picking
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  up all the others as reasons for themselves. Yeah, I'm as fairly common.
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  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, I started as I started
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  cutting out and we'll talk about the different levels of this too. I started
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  cutting out red meat, and then it was I started cutting out chicken and
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  I was only a pescatarian for a little bit, which we'll like, I
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  said, well, I'm start that term, and then that's when the ethical
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  stuff hit it. I did it for health reasons first, and then the
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  ethical stuff hit in, and that's when I was like, okay, no
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  meat at all, nothing with a face, and then started kind of like
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  shaping up my behavior around like more vegan products and more plant based products after
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  that. So that's kind of how I started. I had to like fade
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  in this diet for me. Yeah, And you know, I think as
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  I was saying like I also faded in, but it was like one day
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  a week was so easy. It was so easy even for someone who like
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  I always like to joke that the meat industry took a pretty huge hit when
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  I became vegetarian, because like, my baseline was way above your average.
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  It was like I would like meat with a side of meat on top of
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  meat wrapped inside of meat, please. Yeah. Yeah, And so when
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  I changed directions that, it was like I died as far as the meat
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  industry was concerned. A regular staple customer just suddenly vanished into thin air.
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  Yeah, there's a blip on the map there, like a whole family disappeared.
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  No, yeah, basically yeah, yeah, just just the one anyway,
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  point being, I think that it was a pretty dramatic shift for me.
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  But even with that diet, or with just one day a week,
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  it was what it was really easy. Yeah, it was really easy.
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  Yeah. I barely had to think about it or work on it at all.
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  I would just choose things that didn't have meat in them. And this
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  was at a time when the options for alternatives were scarce to exist. Yeah.
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  Yeah, I don't think people realize that it's much easier to be vegan
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  vegetarian now than it has ever been. Yeah, Like when I started,
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  the best you could get most places was a tofu sandwich. There was like
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  a slab of tofu on bread, like that was your alternative. Otherwise it
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  was just like you know, you make your own food. It was a
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  lot of it. Or you'd go to like salad places and just tell them
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  like, don't put the chicken on. What I mean by don't is don't.
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  What I mean by don't as in don't is leave it in the container
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  instead of putting it on the sandlid. I don't want it anywhere. Hard.
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  It was hard to explain. Yeah, it took some explanation, yeah,
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  to get there. But anyway, I found it extremely easy to just
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  not eat meat one day a week, and so after a while I just
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  doubled that, and then I just continued to increase it from there. So
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  that was a fading process from yeah, it's there, you go, it
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  works. It works. So with that being said, it's probably worth unpacking
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  the terms vegetarian and vegan and where it all comes from. But first some
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  plant based ads. All right. Shane teed us up for talking about vegan
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  and vegetarian because it may surprise you or not to know that these turns have
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  not been around forever, but really not very long at all. Yeah.
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  So, the term vegetarian has been used more regularly since about eighteen thirty nine,
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  So it's only since eighteen thirty nine this word existed, just like the
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  word creep. The word creep is a fairly new term thanks to Charles Dickens,
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  because he was a creep. He was a creep poet. I almost
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  went so far to say like the word creep was vetted by TLC, but
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  you know it was not. So the term was primarily used to refer to
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  a primarily vegetable diet. It's one of those words that was made up,
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  like all words, you know, but it came from an irregular combination of
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  vegetable and aryan arii a n, not the other, not the bad arian,
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  which means to support or believe. So vegetarian is a combination of vegetable
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  and the suffix arian right, So basically, to believe in a vegetable diet
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  is kind of how loosely translated, Yeah, yeah exactly. The term was
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  attributed to Fanny Kemball in a book titled Journal of a residence one on a
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  Georgian plantation in eighteen thirty eight to eighteen thirty nine. That is the rolls
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  right off the tongue. Yeah, you know, it's just as good as
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  like and flew over the cuckoo's nest. Yeah. And we're still talking about
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  vegetarian right now. Yes. Some quick notes on Kembell. She was a
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  British actress and abolitionist whose work was primarily derived from her personal journals. She
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  would often document conditions of enslaved people and would go to advocate for the abolition
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  of slavery. See our recent episodes on slavery that immediately precede this one.
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  Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was kind of an interesting tie in.
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  However, there is a bit of controversy in her writings for various reasons.
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  Some people argue that Kemball falsified her account of plantation owner Roswell King Junior after
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  her affections were dismissed. So apparently she had come on to Roswell King Junior
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  and he said, no, I'm not interested, and she's like, I'm
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  gonna get you by recording an accurate historical account of what you did to people,
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  and the accounting was directly criticized by King's granddaughter. But guy was a
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  plantation owner, so probably wasn't really great. Yeah, not known for their
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  like honesty about conditions on the plantation. Yeah, and it sounds like King's
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  granddaughter probably has a vested interest in making sure or that the you know,
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  the legacy is not tarnished exactly. Okay, So, as we said,
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  vegetarian is a recent term. Despite that, however, vegetarianism, the practice
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  of actually eating a primarily fruit and vegetable based diet, has existed for a
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  millennia, just didn't need to be known by any particular title. Clearly is
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  accounting for vegetarianism goes back at least as far as thirty three hundred BC in
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  the Indus Valley civilization, located in South Asia and what we now known as
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  eastern Pakistan and northwestern India. The civilization was notable for their urban planning,
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  elaborate drainage system, water supply systems, and metallurgy, and apparently practiced widely
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  a vegetarian type diet. Yeah, I thought that was pretty interesting. Now.
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  As far as term vegan goes, the phrase wasn't coined until about nineteen
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  forty four in a publication called the Vegan News, which so great. That's
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  great, so much stuff going on in the world, and they put together
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  a vegan news bulletin. I think that's fantastic, right. The members the
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  Vegetarian Society. By the way, I realize, even as a vegan vegetarian,
• 17:03
  I don't think that I would be able to hang out with these people.
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  They sound insufferable. Yeah, they do not sound like they're fun.
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  But members of the Vegetarian Society wanted to develop a news letter that account for
• 17:14
  people who were solely devoted to non dairy vegetarianism, right, And as we
• 17:18
  said, vegetarianism largely. I guess we haven't really unpacked this super well.
• 17:22
  But vegetarianism really just was not eating specifically the flesh of animals, right,
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  although in practice we'll talk about not even the flesh of animals coincided with also
• 17:34
  not eating products from animals, and those often weren't readily available anyway, And
• 17:38
  I think arguably throughout history this isn't really something we're talking about. Inside of
• 17:44
  this would be fun, I think anthropological sort of episode to do to talk
• 17:48
  about human diets as they've evolved over time. Sure, but meat has almost
• 17:52
  never been a central part of any diet throughout history until industrialization began, because
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  meat was extremely difficult to procure and large enough quantities that it could be like
• 18:03
  a major part of people's diets. So most people throughout history primarily ate vegetables
• 18:08
  and fruits and grains as they were available. I've seen these these stickers that
• 18:14
  people have on the bumper of their car that says, like, eat beef
• 18:18
  the West. Wasn't one on salad. I'm like, yeah, it kind
• 18:19
  of was it one on trail mix? Yeah, Like what they had to
• 18:26
  eat was like they would certainly eat game if they could hunt it and catch
• 18:29
  it, but they had to depend as a primary staple of their food a
• 18:32
  lot of grains and a lot of fruits and vegetables when they could get their
• 18:34
  hands on them. You just can't have that substantial amount of your diet come
• 18:38
  from meat when you're in a society that is not as very well industrialized.
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  Because humans are slow, we do not have very many predator features that most
• 18:48
  other predators have, and we can't outrun our food very well. We have
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  to trap it, we have to catch it, we have to hunt it.
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  If they're gonna if it's gonna be animals. Otherwise you can forage it,
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  which we're very good at, and you can grow it, which it
• 19:00
  turns out we also became very good at. Right. So anyway, point
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  being, most places around the world, we're sort of foundationally practicing a much
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  higher level of vegetarianism just because that was all that they could do, and
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  not necessarily ideologically, although some of them were somewhat ideological, right, And
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  we're gonna unpack some of that too as we go, Like, we're gonna
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  unpack and talk about just the fact that in a lot of places, the
• 19:25
  availability of meat is a for those communities is kind of like a like a
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  reward or like a you know, it's a special treat. It's not something
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  that's like a staple. It's not like a you know, three course meal
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  type of situation that we have here in the United States, where it's like
• 19:38
  meat and potatoes for every meal. It's not like that. Right. Oh,
• 19:42
  I just need to say really quick because I was saying the West one
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  un salad. The idea of the West being one is extremely insulting. Yeah,
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  Like the West was stolen and appropriated from indigenous people by committing horrible acts
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  of atrocity and genocide. Like, let's not pretend that it was one in
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  any way. The West was previously maintained by a largely vegetarian diet with a
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  scattering of meats here and there. Yeah, okay, so you're right,
• 20:07
  Okay, So let's talk about Donald Watson. So Donald Watson, who proposed
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  the idea of the vegan specific news letter, was told that this was not
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  going to happen by the vegetarian society. So he went off and he started
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  his own newsletter called the Vegan News. The term was invented by Watson and
• 20:22
  a school teacher named Dorothy Morgan. They would later marry, like the two
• 20:26
  of them would would end up getting married, so that the you know,
• 20:27
  husband and wife came up with the term vegan. And to do this,
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  they coined this term through this this incredibly painstaking process that included lots of trial
• 20:36
  and error of different ways, like ways to distinguish veganism from vegetarianism that did
• 20:42
  include eggs and daring that sort of thing. What they did is they took
• 20:45
  the beginning and end parts of vegetarian vege end end and made a new word
• 20:52
  that was all that was all they had to do. Became vegan because the
• 20:55
  general rules, a G followed by an A is a hard good sound so
• 20:57
  vegan. Yeah, pains thinking, so tough, so difficult. I will
• 21:03
  say they did. They did come up with some alternatives that I'm so glad
• 21:04
  that we didn't stick with. So we're gonna go over so what we could
• 21:07
  be, but we are not. So we could have been all Veggia or
• 21:11
  all vega. It could be neo vegetarian. We could be dairy bond.
• 21:15
  It's not great Vitan, I guess. Yeah. We could be a benavore.
• 21:21
  You that sounds like a medicine you would put on, like sores on
• 21:26
  your butt or something. It sounds like it would be on I Love Lucy.
• 21:30
  It sounds like it would be the partner two Vita meet a Vegamin.
• 21:33
  There you go. And we could also be Santa VARs or we could be
• 21:37
  bow Mangure. None of those works, super well, none of those work
• 21:41
  at all, So I'm glad they landed on vegan. Yeah. The Vegan
• 21:45
  News and eventually the Vegan Society would go on to published trade list in books
• 21:48
  that included things like vegan recipes and children's books related to veganism. I think
• 21:52
  probably largely related to the idea of thinking of animals as being sentient, autonomouss
• 22:00
  that should be left, that should be treated with respected dignity. Absolutely,
• 22:03
  I want to make sure that it's really clear. This is right around the
• 22:07
  end of World War two, so this is not like an old practice,
• 22:11
  but it's also just such a specific time frame. There's so many things going
• 22:17
  on that it feels like, I'm surprised that this became such an important part
• 22:22
  of that kind of rebuilding society type of situation, if that makes sense.
• 22:26
  Like I feel like it's like, yeah, it's like such a strange little
• 22:29
  corner of like World War two era America. Yeah, I agree, it
• 22:33
  is kind of odd that that was on their mind at the time, but
• 22:38
  hey, I guess people have to do something other than think about the war.
• 22:41
  Yeah, absolutely So. In nineteen forty seven, this group made a
• 22:44
  call for a ban on all animal products, not just dietary restrictions, and
• 22:48
  in nineteen fifty one they published their first definition of the term vegan. So
• 22:52
  they were already kind of getting into the vegan activism activism, and this is
• 22:56
  kind of maybe where Peta maybe started and then totally like ran off with it
• 23:00
  saying that meat causes autism. Now, good lord, So don't listen to
• 23:03
  Peter. They're a little bit ridiculous. But this is kind of where it
• 23:06
  starts in a nineteen fifty one and we finally get a definition of this.
• 23:08
  Yeah, I will say this as a quick side note on PETA, that
• 23:12
  part of my anti vegetarian stance early on in life was seeing the absolute crap
• 23:19
  that was put out by PETA. Yeah, and so I have never been
• 23:22
  a member of the organization, and I think they were. They have almost
• 23:29
  always been extremely counterproductive in their methods, right, and so just as a
• 23:34
  quick note on there, Yeah, there have been a lot of famous vegetarians
• 23:38
  throughout history. There is Seneca the Younger, Nicola Tesla, Dame Jane Goodall,
• 23:44
  Coretta Scott King, Sir Paul McCartney, Leo Tolstoy, Serena Williams,
• 23:48
  Leonardo da Vinci, Pythagoras, Rosa Parks, Albert Einstein, and Billie Eilish
• 23:53
  to name a few. That does tie in at least a couple of our
• 23:57
  threads from the beginning. Yes, some people are sitting here listening and I
• 24:02
  know what you're thinking. Yes, Hitler was also a vegetarian, and he
• 24:06
  presumably was even a vegetarian for ethical animal reasons, which just goes to show
• 24:11
  like that people can are complex, I think, and that just because you
• 24:17
  maybe make one choice in the right direction what we would maybe consider the right
• 24:19
  direction, doesn't mean that you are a morally good person through and through right
• 24:25
  exactly. It's probably more likely that he did it for I could see him
• 24:30
  doing it for diet there reasons, or doing it making a decision while he
• 24:33
  was like all kinds of hopped up on speed. Well, he apparently suffered
• 24:37
  from horrible flatulence, so vegan diet would be better for him, Like,
• 24:41
  oh my god, the guy he does not need to eat more broccoli.
• 24:45
  I think presumably he thought that a vegetarian. Yeah, he wasn't vegan,
• 24:48
  but I think presumably he thought a vegetarian diet would help with the flatulence as
• 24:52
  well. That I think is a little unclear. But he definitely expressed some
• 24:56
  amount of sentiment for animal welfare in some ways ironic obviously not human welfare.
• 25:02
  Yeah. Yeah, still really bad dude. Yeah, basically the archetype for
• 25:06
  evil in the world. If if you were to believe such a thing like
• 25:08
  this. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely didn't think he was going to make an
• 25:11
  appearance in this episode. Did not plan for that. So sorry, No,
• 25:15
  you're good. It's important. Figure somebody was thinking it, we may
• 25:18
  as well say it. That is the argument that comes up a lot.
• 25:19
  So I think it's probably worth unpacking the different types of vegetarianism and veganism because,
• 25:26
  as we said before, the Vegan News in nineteen fifty one came up
• 25:29
  with a definition of what vegan is. But today, because we like to
• 25:33
  label things and we like to have different lab like, it's like sub genres
• 25:36
  of veganism and vegetarianism, and so we're gonna maybe unpack that a little bit.
• 25:38
  Yeah, the taxonomizing of things what Stephen J. Gould would call extreme
• 25:44
  splitters. Yeah, humans love it yea. So earlier, as we said,
• 25:49
  we referenced there's sort of if you think of the motives, there's the
• 25:52
  sort of dietary, ethical, and environmental veganism as sort of subtypes. But
• 25:56
  there are these other branches and dietary subsets of this lifestyle that we figure it
• 26:00
  may as well discuss briefly. Yeah, so there's lacto vegetarians, which excludes
• 26:04
  meat and eggs and foods that contain them, but there's dairy based products within
• 26:08
  that. So a lacto vegetarian doesn't eat eggs or meat, but they will
• 26:12
  eat cheese or maybe drink milk. Yes, the oval vegetarian excludes meat and
• 26:18
  those dairy things yogurt, cheeses, milks, that sort of thing, but
• 26:22
  they do allow eggs, right, And then a lacto ovo vegetarian will exclude
• 26:26
  meat but allow dairy and eggs. And so that's kind of where I'm at
• 26:30
  right now, is the lacto ovo or lacto avo vegetarian. Got it?
• 26:34
  A pesctarian excludes all meat, dairy, and eggs, but does eat fish.
• 26:40
  And actually, I think this one's a little bit flexible too, because
• 26:42
  I've seen a lot of pesctarians who basically just don't eat meat from land animals
• 26:48
  and will eat basically anything. They'll still eat dairy, they'll still eat eggs,
• 26:52
  right, and they'll still eat fish, but they just won't eat like
• 26:55
  cow's, chickens, pigs, that sort of thing. That's what I did
• 26:56
  for a long time. It was like no land animals, but it was
• 26:59
  like creatures were fair game. So, and but I did kind of like
• 27:03
  what you said before, where it was like any like it was like,
• 27:06
  oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna deplete the sea apparently because I wanted to eat
• 27:10
  all of it and try all the things like so I would, I would
• 27:11
  eat every every sea creature. Sure, so there's a real problem. There's
• 27:15
  also flexitarianism, which is primarily a plant based diet but has a flexibility to
• 27:21
  include animal products in moderation. And this might be due to specific health considerations
• 27:26
  or dietary needs. It's not necessarily that the person is like got a moral
• 27:29
  high ground about it. It might actually just be that they've got something that
• 27:33
  they can't supplement outside of those things. So that's that's where the flexitarianism is.
• 27:37
  So the majority of their day, the majority of the diet is plant
• 27:40
  based, but they have to include some other things here and there. And
• 27:42
  then, as we said, vegan excludes all animal products. No meat,
• 27:47
  no eggs, no dairy, no honey, no gelatine, no bones,
• 27:51
  no blood, no animals whatsoever. That's kind of the breakdown of all the
• 27:56
  things. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of other ones in there,
• 27:59
  but those are the main ones that I found as we're doing the research.
• 28:02
  That's fair. Well, I'll tell you what. Ever, someone finds
• 28:06
  out that you're a vegetarian, and especially when they find out that you're vegan,
• 28:08
  the first question we get is how do you get enough protein? These
• 28:12
  ads will tell you, and then we'll tell you the truth. Nice.
• 28:23
  Okay, we're back answering the question about where do vegans get their protein.
• 28:27
  They're all dying and wasting away before our very eyes. Yeah, so welcome
• 28:33
  to the myth busting portion of this. And this is my favorite thing because
• 28:36
  everybody. First of all, for those of you who see me, I
• 28:40
  do not look like I'm wasting away because all I'm meeting is a salad.
• 28:41
  So I get plenty of food and there's plenty of protein in my diet,
• 28:45
  don't you worry. Yeah, but come down this path with us. We're
• 28:48
  going to debunk the hell out of a lot of public misconceptions about veganism and
• 28:52
  vegetarianism. And the first is that eating vegan is expensive. No, it's
• 28:56
  not so. The parts that are expensive are the meat substitutes. Those are
• 29:00
  things that tend to be like kind of at a premium price. But even
• 29:03
  then they're not really that terrible, but they aren't necessary for a vegan diet.
• 29:08
  I think that's the really important thing. You don't need to have a
• 29:11
  beyond burger to be a vegan right. As a matter of fact, naturally
• 29:15
  vegan foods tend to be cheaper overall grains, rice, fruits, seeds,
• 29:18
  nuts, beans are all naturally vegan and can be purchased at a much lower
• 29:22
  price point than you would think. Yeah, it's kind of like anything.
• 29:26
  Like you can eat a carnivorous diet and spend millions of dollars if you want
• 29:30
  to, having the rarest steaks and whatever, or specific types of meats,
• 29:36
  or you can eat flexibly on a budget, and the same is true for
• 29:38
  a vegan diet. You can spend a lot of money if you want to,
• 29:41
  but you certainly don't have to to be able to follow the diet.
• 29:45
  Right. Another one, the honey is vegan. Honey is not vegan.
• 29:48
  This is a unique debate. Honey is produced by bees, so we don't
• 29:52
  like squeeze honey out of them or anything. Let some argue that sense bees
• 29:55
  often produce more than they consume. They aren't forced to produce, such as
• 30:00
  cows, with milk and therefore it's fine. Others argue that collecting honey is
• 30:03
  exploited if and harmful. It is interesting debate, and I think the where
• 30:07
  to go with that is that there are cases where bees will produce more than
• 30:12
  they need to. What people maybe don't know is honey is bees food.
• 30:15
  They basically make that they regurgitated out of themselves, and then they use it
• 30:21
  later for a source of calories. Right. They have this process where they
• 30:25
  farm things like pollen, They go to plants, they collect it, they
• 30:27
  consume it. It gets processed in their body to be regurgitated out, so
• 30:32
  it becomes a digestible source of calories for them, their primary source of calories
• 30:36
  in fact. And so the way that a lot of honey is farmed is
• 30:38
  that people will take the honey. They'll have these bees kept in these boxes.
• 30:44
  We can easily take the honey out and then they replace it with sugar
• 30:47
  water because that also has calories. It also has sugar, which is what
• 30:51
  the bees have. Terrible for the bees, absolutely terrible, and so the
• 30:53
  bees often will experience colony collapse because of this. They might also dine in
• 30:59
  the process simply of going through They often will smoke the bullet smoke at the
• 31:03
  bees to keep them calm, so they're not attacking the apparist as they're doing
• 31:04
  the thing. But there are also people who argue that they can do this
• 31:07
  very ethically be responsible, and I don't doubt that that's certainly possible. But
• 31:11
  I think for a lot of people, the safe route is just don't eat
• 31:15
  honey, right because you don't know how it's being produced. Right. So
• 31:18
  there's that, yeah, and Govenik, there is a perfectly acceptable replacement as
• 31:22
  far as like you're trying to get that that feeling like that that works just
• 31:26
  fine. Okay. So one thing I've heard, and I hear I hear
• 31:29
  this all the time is plans to have feelings. Well, no, they
• 31:33
  don't. There are some interesting studies to talk about, like I don't want
• 31:37
  to say trauma responses, but like basically, if there's like a if like
• 31:41
  damage responses, like if there's damage to the structure of the plant, there
• 31:45
  are certain things that happen as a response, like almost like cellular like reproduction
• 31:48
  and all that stuff. But plants don't have central nervous systems, they don't
• 31:52
  have brains. They are complex, they're interesting, but they do not have
• 31:57
  what we would describe as feelings, and so so that that's kind of one
• 32:01
  of those things that there's a lot of really interesting science. And if you're
• 32:05
  a botanist and you want to talk about this, please email us as well.
• 32:07
  I'd love to hear from you all. Ye, Brendan friend, Brendan
• 32:10
  who loves plants, please tell us some stuff to But at the end of
• 32:15
  the day, plants do not have feelings the way that we think they do.
• 32:17
  Yeah, And it's just kind of silly argument. And then I think
• 32:19
  if you go back to the motive of like environmental impact, Like, honestly,
• 32:22
  if I could eat nothing and be perfectly healthy and survive and just absorb
• 32:25
  sunlight for energy, I would totally do that because it would be even less
• 32:29
  exploitative on the world. It would free up a lot of space and time
• 32:31
  that we spend hauling stuff out of our planet that would be better spent helping
• 32:37
  our planet thrive and be successful. But I can't do that, so I
• 32:39
  gotta eat something. Right. The thing that I can eat that is the
• 32:43
  closest to the sort of lowest level of the trophic food chain, if you
• 32:46
  will, is plants, And there was a recent study about here and plants
• 32:51
  scream. It was literally what it sounds like when the fibers and plants break.
• 32:54
  You want to call that screaming, Like come on, right, that's
• 32:59
  like saying that rock scream when you break them apart, because they make a
• 33:02
  sound when you pack them, right, right, never even had anything to
• 33:06
  do with anything a lifelike. Now if you get if you start slicing a
• 33:09
  carrot and it goes oh wow wow, then that's a different conversation. Yeah,
• 33:14
  then then stop. Yeah, it's just it's a very silly argument from
• 33:17
  people who are i think, disingenuously trying to engage, right, Yeah,
• 33:22
  it's it's bad faith actors, Like they're just like they're trying to like they're
• 33:24
  not trying to have a debate or an argument with you. They're literally just
• 33:27
  trying to like troll you. Yeah, yeah, it's just trolling. You're
• 33:30
  an episode on trolling. Sometimes. I think it's meant that before yes,
• 33:32
  all right, mid number four, vegans can't get enough calcium or protein.
• 33:37
  This one is so false that it hurts. Check this out. First,
• 33:39
  Vegans get more than enough calcium from things like kale, spinache, to heeny
• 33:44
  dried figs, almonds, soybeans, chickpeas, and seaweed. There's calcium and
• 33:46
  a lot of plants that's more readily available than in other places. Furthermore,
• 33:51
  as far as protein goes, broccoli, spinache, tofu, lentils, chickpeas,
• 33:54
  amaranth nutritionally yet soy milk, and green peas are just a few of
• 33:58
  the plant based foods that provide a substantial amount of protein. Beans can actually
• 34:02
  give you more protein than a cut of steak and have less fatty byproducts.
• 34:07
  All of the things that we need are available from plants as humans specifically,
• 34:12
  It's not true for cats, but it is for humans, right right right,
• 34:16
  mid number five. Vegan diets are not healthy. Now here's the thing
• 34:20
  about this. If it's done wrong, sure, just like any other diet,
• 34:23
  and this is really important. If you're not getting all of the nutrients
• 34:27
  you need, then yeah, that whatever you're doing is a problem. It's
• 34:31
  not inherently that the vegan part of it is bad. A good vegan diet
• 34:35
  is actually very lean, very healthy. You almost have like zero issues with
• 34:38
  cholesterol and all the things that go along with that. So it's not that
• 34:42
  vegan diets are unhealthy. It's that people implement them in unhealthy ways. As
• 34:45
  a matter of fact, some of the most unhealthy people I know are vegans
• 34:49
  because they choose in their diet to eat nothing but buttered pasta, you know,
• 34:52
  like like with margarine or oil. Yeah, or French fries all the
• 34:55
  time. And oreos and oreos because oreos are vegan. And so that's I've
• 35:00
  seen. Some of the most unhealthy people in my life are vegan because they're
• 35:04
  doing it wrong. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So they're not inherently one
• 35:07
  way or another. But I think if you were focusing primarily on eating vegetables
• 35:12
  and you're going to be in pretty good chain, right, all right,
• 35:15
  Vegan diets make you weak. This is a professional wrestling tie in professional wrestler
• 35:19
  Brian Danielson former Daniel Bryan and WWE as a staunch vegan, has been for
• 35:23
  decades. He's an incredible shape. Even replaced the WWE title with a vegan
• 35:28
  friendly version made of recycled materials for a little bit and with slap hotdogs out
• 35:31
  of people's hands during the show. I guess Carl Lewis, famous Olympic track
• 35:37
  star who set world records, also vegan so yes, there is no no
• 35:40
  reason to think that you can't be very strong and also be vegan. There
• 35:44
  are many people who are actually bodybuilders who are specifically vegan have written books about
• 35:49
  how they they sort of work around, you know, they use their diets
• 35:52
  to support the lifestyle of bodybuilding. Yeah, Brian Damson is is a great
• 35:57
  example this. I always think it's really funny, and it's always funny too,
• 36:00
  Like in professional wrestling, when they make something that's like a quote unquote
• 36:05
  counterculture to what they think professional wrestling is, they make them the villain.
• 36:07
  So like his character was trying to save the world by recycling more and trying
• 36:15
  to reverse global warming, but he was the villain. So that's why he
• 36:17
  would slap hotdogs out of people's hands because they were like, you can't eat
• 36:21
  that, it's disgusting, Like you're destroying the environment. Like the environmentalist was
• 36:24
  the villain like they which is so silly. Sure, But the reason he
• 36:29
  had a recycled belt is because the championship belt as a leather strap and he's
• 36:34
  like, nah, we're not doing this, and so he threw it away
• 36:37
  and had like a hemp strap with like wood plates on it and stuff.
• 36:42
  It was great. It's hilarious. Love it. Myth Number seven vegans just
• 36:45
  eat salad well, according to most restaurants I found on yelp, Yes,
• 36:47
  that's true. Those are the vegan options that every restaurant has when they list
• 36:51
  themselves a vegan. But those people are silly gooses. Vegans eat so much
• 36:54
  more than that. And as a matter of fact, some of the best
• 36:57
  vegan food I've ever had is not a valid even like at home, some
• 37:00
  of the food that I make, like my son, like the one thing
• 37:04
  that he loves to eat is the vegan pizza that we make. M Yeah,
• 37:07
  good stuff. Yeah, vegan pizza is not that hard. Actually,
• 37:09
  even if you weren't using alternative, simply leave off the cheese and you've got
• 37:13
  a really good pizza. Yeah. Or you get like vegan shreads if you
• 37:15
  want, if you want that texture, and that's fine too, Like it
• 37:17
  all works. Yeah, I actually love like going to a sandwich place.
• 37:22
  We sort of build your own, and I wasn't like all the vegetables,
• 37:24
  Yeah, that's all, and like you'd be amazed at how good that tastes.
• 37:28
  Like it's yeah, it's great works, Yeah, put all the vegetables
• 37:30
  on there. I personally am a fan of the jalapenos. Avocado gives it's
• 37:34
  nice creaminess. I like mustard on mine. I'm a fan of the wheat
• 37:37
  bread. And you've you've got a very well rounded sandwich exactly, all right,
• 37:42
  math eight. Veganism is hard. I mean, sure it can be,
• 37:45
  But how is it different from changing any other habit in your life.
• 37:47
  I consider a time you try going on a specific diet you think back to
• 37:51
  like Atkins or something like that. Yeah, it's hard to stick to,
• 37:53
  right. Habit changes can be tough for a variety of reasons. Being vegan
• 37:58
  isn't really any harder than something than anything else. I would argue easier than
• 38:00
  something like picking up a workout routine right, particularly because it becomes a lifestyle.
• 38:05
  You stop thinking about it most of the time. It just becomes something
• 38:07
  you do right right exactly. And the last minute we're going to debunk vegans
• 38:12
  must miss meat or dairy. Not really. There are people that might.
• 38:15
  But if you are somebody who is eating vegan vegetarian and you have like flavorful
• 38:22
  cooking, like you know how to cook a meal, yeah, you're usually
• 38:25
  fine with it. Like I've been in the vegetarian realm for eight years now,
• 38:30
  and I don't crave or miss any of the things that I used to
• 38:36
  eat. Like there's never a time where I'm driving by a Wendy's going yo,
• 38:38
  man, you know what could really go for as a spicy chicken sandwich.
• 38:42
  I don't. I don't think like that. I'm just kind of like,
• 38:44
  no, I want something spicy. I'll go make something spicy at home
• 38:47
  and get that. Like, I'm not missing the meat part of it,
• 38:50
  I'm missing the flavor part of it. So just flavor your food, you'll
• 38:52
  be fine. Yeah, I agree. And the hardest thing when I first
• 38:55
  started following a vegan diet was cheese, because I, yeah, and I
• 39:00
  had a lot of animal animal products, and that was the toughest one for
• 39:04
  me. But once I was sort of over it, I was completely over
• 39:07
  it and I literally have not wanted it ever since. And actually the times
• 39:10
  would have accidentally had milk because someone made like a latte with regular milk when
• 39:15
  I asked for something else or whatever. You could tell pretty quickly because it
• 39:19
  has this weird off sort of sour taste that I feel really unpleasant. Now,
• 39:23
  Yeah, we're not trying to convert y'all, but like, we just
• 39:27
  want to give you information. But somebody the other day said that they had
• 39:30
  a glass of like two percent milk and said it smelled like boogers, and
• 39:32
  that made me laugh really loud, Like I was like that thought it was
• 39:36
  very funny. But also, yeah, like I can't drink milk anymore.
• 39:39
  Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I don't really just drink glasses
• 39:42
  of oat milk either. That's just not a thing. But anyway, yeah,
• 39:46
  exactly, Well, we call our show why we do what we do,
• 39:49
  and so we should talk about why people are vegan a vegetarian. We
• 39:52
  sort of shared our story, but there's more to unpack there. So we'll
• 39:55
  listen to some ads, sell you some I don't know, impossible brokers maybe,
• 40:00
  and we'll come right back. Okay, So why are people Why do
• 40:09
  people do this? Shane? Yeah? Why? There's lots of reasons.
• 40:13
  You know, we kind of shared our personal reasons and stuff. But there
• 40:15
  are for some folks a lot of health benefits. Just I mentioned before,
• 40:20
  like eating a vegan vegetarian diet can help. More specifically, vegan diet can
• 40:23
  help produce issues with cholesterol. There's a lot of things like that. There's
• 40:27
  also health concerns about animal protein, and there's also animal welfare on moral values.
• 40:32
  All of those things are different reasons for why somebody might do it,
• 40:36
  and every person that you meet that's vegan or vegetarian is going to have their
• 40:39
  own personal kind of journey towards it, so their own reasons for it,
• 40:44
  and we've, like I said, we've shared our own, but there are
• 40:46
  lots of reasons why. One of the things that immediately got me into it,
• 40:50
  as as I mentioned earlier, was the sort of environmental impacts. And
• 40:53
  there's a few things that like I learned about this that again, this is
• 40:58
  I think the previous part of all of this, and I think there are
• 41:00
  some caveats situated in this as well. But some of the things that includes,
• 41:05
  like, Okay, the meat industry actually uses a ton of fossil fuel
• 41:07
  and water and the lot of grain to feed livestock. I've actually heard that
• 41:10
  I think the majority of the corn grown in the United States goes to feeding
• 41:15
  livestock when you could use those resources to actually feed people directly. Because you
• 41:20
  don't get a one to one conversion the amount of food you spend to grow
• 41:22
  an animal does not produce that amount of food and meat from that animal.
• 41:27
  You need like between ten and one hundred times that much food to grow the
• 41:31
  same like a pound of that meat. It takes about seventeen hundred to eighteen
• 41:36
  hundred gallons of water to produce a single pound of beef, compared to an
• 41:39
  average of thirty nine gallons of water per pound of vegetables, more or less
• 41:44
  depending on what types of vegetables on where you grow them. The vegetarian diet
• 41:46
  alone could dramatically reduce water sumption by as much as fifty eight percent per person.
• 41:52
  Again, lots of caveats situated there. Thinking about where things are grown.
• 41:55
  Like if you have a salad that was flown into you specifically from like
• 42:00
  South Africa to the United States, the amount of phosphuel burned to get it
• 42:06
  there was not worth it Like here, right, it was either negligible or
• 42:10
  even potentially worse. So consider where things are coming from. Things grown in
• 42:15
  regions that they don't normally grow and require a lot more water and environmental modifications
• 42:19
  to make them stable. That's hard in the environment. So it's a mix.
• 42:22
  But if you can get it locally, things that are grown naturally in
• 42:25
  those areas or the you know, their ship does as well as could be
• 42:30
  expected given where they come from, then you can't reduce that by quite a
• 42:34
  bit. Right. Also, to meat production itself is a major contributor to
• 42:37
  greenhouse gas emissions. That specifically, the greenhouse gas emissions has proven to correlate
• 42:43
  to climate change crisis, like the crisis that we're experiencing right now. That
• 42:46
  is one of the number one things, if not the thing that's contributing so
• 42:51
  immediately, just eating meat is kind of perpetuating a system that is producing really
• 42:59
  problematic kind of environmental events. I mean, that's why we're seeing literally we
• 43:02
  gotta eat Like I just got like notifications the other day a hurricane was hitting
• 43:07
  Los Angeles at the same time as an earthquake. There's a lot of stuff
• 43:09
  going on. It's a it's a little bit intense right now. Yeah,
• 43:13
  I don't think climate change can account for earthquakes, but we definitely have seen
• 43:16
  the intensity of hurricanes increases, the temperature of water increases. Right. This
• 43:21
  goes back to the sort of economic portion of this. You just eating a
• 43:24
  piece of meat doesn't necessarily do anything to the environment. It's the fact that
• 43:28
  that meat then was raised in a cow on a farm and then shipped to
• 43:32
  you, right like that was and all the combinations that. Yeah, it's
• 43:37
  all the combination of things. When the cows alive, they fart or burp
• 43:39
  a whole bunch of methane in the atmosphere to the tunes of like billions of
• 43:44
  metric tons of carbon. So you can reduce your carbon footput by as much
• 43:49
  as eight pounds if you every day that you choose to not consume just meat,
• 43:53
  Like we'ren't even talking about dairyan and eggs or anything else at this point,
• 43:58
  right, So person skipping meet one day a week for a year would
• 44:02
  be like taking almost three hundred fifty miles off of the road of driving a
• 44:07
  car. And if everybody did this, it'd be like taking two hundred and
• 44:09
  fifty million cars off the road every year. As how they've worked out the
• 44:14
  math, that's probably an extreme estimation, like on the high end of that,
• 44:17
  and that probably also doesn't factor in things like electric cars and that sort
• 44:21
  of thing. Right, But quick side note, shouldn't we just take two
• 44:23
  hundred and fifty million cars off of the road? Yeah? Anyway, Yeah,
• 44:27
  just get rid of them, just to reduce traffic. Yeah, just
• 44:30
  get rid of them. Yeah, so there's a lot of benefits to eating
• 44:31
  a plant based diet just once a week. But you know, people do
• 44:35
  this too for religious belief like they may find and we've seen this time and
• 44:38
  time again where the cows a sacred animal, so it is not consumed,
• 44:43
  it is worshiped. And you'll see this kind of time and time again where
• 44:45
  vegetarian diets are kind of embedded or entrenched in certain religious practices or spiritual beliefs.
• 44:51
  And I think that's really important too when you understand that, like it
• 44:52
  might not even be an ethical reason, it might be a specific moral reason
• 44:57
  related to a higher power. Yeah. And there are also some people who's
• 45:00
  just simply they don't even want the label. They don't care about feeling like
• 45:04
  they fit in with a vegan or vegetarian community. They just prefer to not
• 45:07
  eat a lot of animal products. It's usually meat that they tend to eat
• 45:10
  a very little of, right, But that could also be a reason.
• 45:14
  It's just that personal preference that people have that they just don't like it or
• 45:16
  they just don't want it to you know, they just maybe they just prefer
• 45:21
  other they like really prefer vegetables, and it's like they don't really care about
• 45:24
  the fact that they're missing out on the meat. They just really really like
• 45:27
  their vegetables. That happens for some people, right right. So with all
• 45:31
  that being said, that's this kind of general like understanding individual variables. But
• 45:37
  we should look at the science parts. So what do nerds have to say
• 45:40
  about the vegan vegetarian diets? Okay, so earlier we talked about calcium.
• 45:45
  Smith two thousand and six found that vegans can struggle with calcium and have a
• 45:49
  greater risk of osteoporosis than they're non dairy counterparts. However, the lower amount
• 45:53
  of calcium is not directly related to calcium and or vitamin D deficits, as
• 45:58
  they relate to bron factors, so don't necessarily have more broken bones. Should
• 46:02
  plan for getting more calcium in their diet, right. Gaming in twenty twenty
• 46:07
  one discussed the idea that veganism is beginning to emerge as a more popular lifestyle,
• 46:10
  so it's becoming kind of part of the cultural zeitgeist, and more specifically,
• 46:15
  they account for cultural origins of veganism and how those are beginning to permeate
• 46:19
  what we describe or what we think of as cultural norms. So you're finding
• 46:22
  that other parts of the world that vegetarianism and veganism has been kind of a
• 46:27
  staple practice for centuries is starting to get into places that didn't really have that
• 46:32
  type of lifestyle for a long time. So now that that's starting to cultures
• 46:36
  are starting to meld, you're starting to see more vegetarian experiences. Yep,
• 46:40
  Sex Thing Garnett and Lauren More twenty twenty two discussed big veganism and how it's
• 46:45
  beginning to grow across a variety of geographical reasons. Factors that contribute to big
• 46:50
  veganism spread included following food ways, alternative food networks, cultural politics, and
• 46:55
  material politics. So apparently you can get a job as a food geographer as
• 46:59
  a thing. Yeah, so this is something I learned to food geographer apparently
• 47:02
  maps out like where rich resources of food and food deserts exist within specific places.
• 47:08
  For example, like a food geographer in the United States might look at
• 47:13
  specific areas where like more rural areas, more rural cities where it's hard to
• 47:16
  get food stuffs to those places, or like reservations which are considered in a
• 47:22
  lot of places are considered food deserts because there are certain resources that can't get
• 47:24
  out to the reservations and theave American reservations out there. So food geographers look
• 47:29
  at that and they do data analyzes based on food accessibility. Wow, that's
• 47:35
  cool. I'm glad that's the thing that exists. Yeah, I thought that
• 47:37
  was really really cool. I thought it was really fascinating. So behaviorally speaking,
• 47:42
  though, we could spend hours and hours and hours breaking this down because
• 47:45
  people have interesting relationships with food and food aversions and all this stuff. But
• 47:50
  I want to look at a few factors that we can account for when we
• 47:52
  talk about behavior. First is that food is a primary reinforcer. Means that
• 47:57
  like, we tend to really like food, We're naturally motivated to go eat
• 48:00
  food, Yes, and it's primary need. So we develop really complex,
• 48:05
  sometimes detrimental relationships with food. We develop these really unique experiences with food for
• 48:10
  different reasons. We learn what we like, we learn we dislike, we
• 48:14
  learn how to prepare meals. All of these contributed the types of foods we
• 48:16
  eat, including whether or not we like certain types of vegan food. Like
• 48:22
  oh, you might have a particular experience with tofu, like maybe you don't
• 48:27
  like the texture, maybe you don't like that, So you might have a
• 48:29
  unique relationship with the types of food that are coming up in your area.
• 48:32
  Yeah. Absolutely. Another thing that was an account for this is just our
• 48:36
  general learning histories and the sort of contexts in which we've contacted these foods.
• 48:40
  We may have been exposed to lots of experiences with foods when we were growing
• 48:44
  up. For instance, Shane ate so much pasta when he was a kid
• 48:47
  because it was cheap that he got really sick of it and he never picks
• 48:51
  pasta as a go to food that's over it. Yeah, it's true experience
• 48:54
  is like being forced to eat foods or traditions around foods might create different learning
• 48:59
  history use that influence our behaviors. My mom, I think, very cleverly
• 49:02
  told me that I was smart for trying a lot of different foods, and
• 49:06
  I wanted to be smart, so I was like very open minded to trying
• 49:08
  different foods. Yeah. And I learned early on that mushrooms were mote of
• 49:13
  my favorite foods and always have been. And the more mushrooms I try,
• 49:15
  the more like mushrooms. Yeah, makes sense. And I've also like I
• 49:19
  don't call a time in my life when I did not like a lot of
• 49:22
  dark, leafy greens and other vegetables. Like I've always loved broccoli, I've
• 49:25
  always loved spinach, I've always loved squash. I've always loved like all of
• 49:29
  these other vegetables my whole life. So I kind of grew up around a
• 49:32
  wide, wide palette. But I also grew up around people who were very
• 49:37
  very much into meat eating and tried things also like chicken livers and hearts and
• 49:44
  cow tongue and all sorts of different types of meats, various seafoods and that
• 49:49
  sort of thing. Yeah, it was just a very very wide range of
• 49:52
  things. Yeah, that makes sense. I could see that I was raised
• 49:54
  to try things, but I was also like, we didn't get a lot
• 49:58
  of opportunity to try it they because we just had no money. Like it
• 50:01
  was it was pretty much like, okay, So like a cut of steak
• 50:04
  was London broil, like it was beat It was tough and chewy, you
• 50:07
  know, it was pasta every night. It was peanut butter and jelly.
• 50:10
  It was you know, I lived that life. Whereas it was hot dogs
• 50:13
  wrapped in a piece of white bread, you know, like, Wow,
• 50:15
  that's the kind of the diet that I grew up with. And not to
• 50:19
  say that people don't have that worse. People absolutely one hundred percent have that
• 50:22
  worse. I was very fortunate to have food, but I didn't get a
• 50:23
  lot of opportunities to try stuff like that. So I didn't do that until
• 50:27
  later, and then I was like, I'm gonna try everything, and then
• 50:30
  learned I don't like to try everything that's fair. So speaking of that,
• 50:32
  let's talk about food accessibility and opportunity. So with vegan options becoming more and
• 50:37
  more accessible and available, it makes sense that veganism would be kind of on
• 50:40
  the rise in areas where plant based options are not quite as available. Though
• 50:44
  we might find the folks may simply not make the attempt or they may not
• 50:47
  know how. And I could speak for this. When I was a kid,
• 50:50
  we had morning Star. Morning Star products were the product that everybody ate.
• 50:53
  That was it. Yeah, the options at least just for like the
• 50:55
  stuff that's out there that's like specifically plant based stuff that's like products like the
• 51:00
  meats up stutes. There's so many things. Now. All my vegan friends
• 51:02
  when we were kids, like loved it. Was Boca and morning Star.
• 51:07
  Those are the two things that everybody was like, yes, we got to
• 51:09
  get those, and there was it was kind of like, you know,
• 51:13
  Cobra's versus Scorpions, Like it was like two different rival gangs. I had
• 51:15
  the Book of Friends that I had the morning Star gang. I was a
• 51:19
  morning Star kid. I couldn't stand the both of stuff. Now I eat
• 51:21
  Boca Burgers all time. Yeah, I like them both. I think a
• 51:24
  lot of people who aren't in the sort of vegetarian community, they sort of
• 51:27
  think that that is all that exists. Still I've heard anything that maybe it's
• 51:30
  what they've heard of. So like if we ever go someplace where someone's like,
• 51:32
  oh it made a vegan option, ninety percent of the time is going
• 51:36
  to be a Portobello fun yeah, And the other time, like, if
• 51:42
  it's not that, then it's probably one of those morning Star patties and they're
• 51:45
  good. Like I like them all. I like I like Boca, like
• 51:46
  morning Star, like they're fine, but there's there are just so many more
• 51:50
  options out there. And also like I'm okay just eating vegetables, Like I
• 51:53
  said, I love vegetables. Yeah, And also just so you know,
• 51:57
  we appreciate the attempt. We're very like flattered you would even try. We
• 52:00
  do, yes completely. The fact that even thought that it was worth trying
• 52:04
  to help accommodate it is very very kind. So I don't want kind to
• 52:07
  disparage that. Yeah. Yeah. Another one is response effort. This is
• 52:12
  I think, just understanding what it takes to engage in some diet like this,
• 52:15
  learning how to prepare new meals, create new recipes, change dietary practices.
• 52:21
  It does take effort. This is not like you just flip switch into
• 52:23
  everything. It's like golden Some people may find that the juice is not worth
• 52:28
  the squeeze, as they say, when it comes the amount of work that
• 52:30
  it can take. And that's not just in preparing meals, but that's also
• 52:34
  learning how to tell if something that you've bought is vegan. It's learning to
• 52:37
  tell like how do you pick out restaurants? How do you identify ingredients that
• 52:42
  you need? There's so many things that go at like what things shouldn't you
• 52:45
  have anymore? And like all of that takes time, it takes effort,
• 52:50
  it takes learning, but eventually, like you get very good at reading labels
• 52:52
  on packaging, yes, yes you do. That's not in everybody's sort of
• 52:58
  wheelhouse. You know, that's not something they wants to do. They don't
• 53:00
  want to really think about their food very much. So and I get that.
• 53:04
  I think the more we move toward like what's really nice now is how
• 53:07
  many products it'll just have a little stamp that says vegan on it, Yeah,
• 53:09
  and so that you really don't have to try very hard. If it's
• 53:12
  got that stamp on it, you can just you can accept that you're good
• 53:15
  to move on. Sure, I think for some people, if they wanted
• 53:19
  to try it but they didn't want to do the effort, you could just
• 53:21
  sort of ask say, is that vegan? They'll the waiters say I don't
• 53:22
  know, and you're like, yeah, whatever. But sometimes they'll say,
• 53:24
  oh, it's not, but we can make it vegan if you want to.
• 53:27
  And so yeah, I think there's things that are moving toward making it
• 53:30
  less effortful. Yeah. I think another part of that too is like if
• 53:34
  you are somebody and this is just kind of like a little tidbit, if
• 53:36
  you're somebody who's interested in becoming vegan or vegetarian, just know that you're probably
• 53:39
  gonna mess up, and it's Okay, give yourself some grace. Like I've
• 53:43
  seen people give up on vegan dies because they mess up once or twice and
• 53:45
  they're like, well, that's it. It's like, no, I have
• 53:49
  I still like we'll mess up here and there, like not too long ago,
• 53:52
  Like I, like I said, I try to be really cognizant of
• 53:54
  like what I eat, and not too long ago. I got a bag
• 53:57
  of like pizza combos and they have like a b a beef broth in it
• 54:00
  or something like that, and I didn't know I missed it when I looked
• 54:02
  at the ingredients and I saw it. And once I saw it, I
• 54:06
  was like, oh, I'm not gonna eat the rest of these, But
• 54:07
  it was I'd already I'd already messed up, you know. Or like some
• 54:09
  soups will have like a broth that you don't know about and you're like,
• 54:13
  oh, broccoli cheddar. That sounds vegetarian. It's like, no, it's
• 54:15
  probably made with a beef broth or a beef tallow So you gotta be careful
• 54:17
  with that. But you're gonna mess up, and it's okay to mess up.
• 54:21
  Yeah, absolutely. I think the all or nothing attitude is extremely damaging
• 54:23
  when it comes to a lot of things like this, I'm probably on the
• 54:28
  more extreme end of sticking to it, but I honestly think and people have
• 54:31
  said that, they're like, like they reduced me, and I'm like,
• 54:35
  that's great. Like, honestly, any little effort you make, I think
• 54:37
  is great. Yeah, the more the better. But like, if that's
• 54:42
  whatever you can do, and you do that thing, that's awesome. I
• 54:45
  love to hear that. Agreed. You don't have to totally adopt a vegan
• 54:47
  diets to have the kind of impact that you might want to have, And
• 54:51
  I think just just reduce a little bit, you know, choose alternatives.
• 54:54
  That's it. Yeah, nice and easy. Nice and easy. All right.
• 54:57
  Speaking of alternatives, we have an alternative to good content, which is
• 55:00
  bad content in the form of advertisement. Let's wrap this up with a few
• 55:12
  interesting tidbits here. Many people may have hurt this, but I always think
• 55:15
  it's fun to share. Is that India has the lowest rate of meat consumption
• 55:17
  in the world, with about four hundred million people identifying as vegetarian. That's
• 55:22
  more people there in the United States. I think, between China and India,
• 55:30
  that's a third of the entire planet's population of human beings. Yes,
• 55:32
  I think it's a lot, a lot of people. Yeah. Israel has
• 55:37
  the highest percentage of vegans, with about five point two percent of their total
• 55:40
  population practicing veganism and identifying as vegan. I would have never guessed that,
• 55:45
  never in a million years. No, not at all. The majority of
• 55:46
  Eritrean and Ethiopian food is plant based. This I did know. There's a
• 55:51
  plant There is an Ethiopian restaurant where I live. Going there, you basically
• 55:55
  have to make no modifications to make it vegan. It's everything is just plant.
• 56:00
  Yeah, it's great, really great. Jamaican eat all food etall comes
• 56:02
  from the word vital in Rastafarian. Okay. It's based on Rastafari traditions and
• 56:07
  usually includes foods that are organic, unprocessed, and free of additives, and
• 56:10
  a lot of vegan food options. So as a matter of fact, one
• 56:15
  of the only Jamaican restaurants it's in my town is a vegan restaurant called Kale
• 56:17
  Cafe, and it's so good. Oh, I would love to check that
• 56:21
  out. I come with me and I'll bring you get some jerk mushrooms.
• 56:23
  The Jamaican spices like jerk spices that they use are so good. They know
• 56:30
  how they use they know how to throw some spices together. Oh yeah,
• 56:31
  uh huh okay. I have a stat here couched in caveats. So vegan
• 56:37
  diet can reduce your carbon foot print by about seventy three percent. Some ways
• 56:40
  it can be higher, many ways it can be lower. I think the
• 56:43
  important thing to consider is how you go about doing it. I think a
• 56:46
  lot of the alternatives end up being a higher carbon footprint than simply eating produce,
• 56:52
  be that things like synthetic animal or synthetics like pleather, you know,
• 56:55
  or things like fake meat products. They're almost always much much lower than meat
• 57:00
  themselves. But it just depends. As I said, if you're flying your
• 57:04
  saladin from like the the other side of the world for your meal every day,
• 57:07
  then your carbon footprint is going to be extremely high. Like eating local
• 57:12
  in many situations, it might be less environmentally damaging to eat locally raised beef
• 57:17
  than it would be to eat some exotic products that were harvest and flown in
• 57:22
  from all over the world right for a particular meal. So just consider like
• 57:25
  those things. But that being said, you could theoretically sort of weigh it
• 57:30
  out that way, right, Another stat that comes up I've heard a few
• 57:34
  times, but again as Couchton and some you know, there's an asterisk here,
• 57:37
  is that every vegan saves about one hundred animals a year by not eating
• 57:42
  meat compared to somebody who does. Now that's it's where that number comes from.
• 57:45
  How they calculate that is a little bit challenging. I think they're basing
• 57:47
  it on like general meat consumption in the United States. But that's something that
• 57:52
  has come up quite a few times. Yeah, something to nothing right,
• 57:55
  and everybody is parade, but all alcohol is vegan. Some products are filtered
• 58:01
  through ising glass, which is fish bladder, gelatin, egg whites or milk
• 58:06
  proteins, and some cases with wines also charred bones. Yep, I've heard
• 58:09
  that blood and other visceral tissue might make it in there. In addition to
• 58:13
  that, again just ruining your day. Sugar, particularly white sugar, may
• 58:17
  not be vegan because some processes for refining sugar include the use of charred cowbones
• 58:22
  or other animal bones. Yeah, so hate to bove everybody out, and
• 58:27
  you might not care, and that's fine, Like we're not trying to convert
• 58:30
  you, but we just want you to know why people do this thing.
• 58:32
  Yeah, I will say for myself, I don't think the whole world needs
• 58:36
  to be vegan. I don't even think everybody needs to be primarily vegan.
• 58:39
  I think the biggest problem is people eat way more meat than they need to
• 58:45
  in places where they have abundant access to other food types. When we're talking
• 58:50
  about food deserts, there are many places in the world where if they tried
• 58:52
  to cut out meat altogether and other animal products, they would starve to death
• 58:55
  because they don't have access to other foods. And so like, we can't
• 59:00
  ask or expect that the world become vegan. That's not a reasonable place for
• 59:04
  us to be. But we could severely reduce the amount of meat and other
• 59:07
  animal products that we consume to help impact I think both food security because as
• 59:14
  I said, we're using an enormous amount of land to support these animals that
• 59:17
  if we use that same land to support people, it would be much easier
• 59:22
  to reduce food and security because we'd be growing crops that would directly feed people,
• 59:25
  rather than ninety percent of the calories from those crops going to making it
• 59:30
  a single basically feeding one person, right, because you know, it'd be
• 59:34
  like ninety percent of that goes to a pound of meat or something like that.
• 59:37
  So anyway, I'm as I said, I'm of the mind that it's
• 59:40
  not all or nothing. I'm also of the mind that it doesn't make sense
• 59:44
  to expect that the whole world needs to be vegan, and I think there
• 59:45
  are very healthy and economic and sustainable ways that people can eat diets that include
• 59:51
  animal products, and I think that it makes the most sense to just do
• 59:53
  you figure out how we can best move forward knowing that how can we use
• 1:00:00
  so that we're not using an enormous excess beyond what we need, and how
• 1:00:04
  can we do it sustainably so that where we do have those things, we're
• 1:00:07
  practicing it in a responsible way. That's my thought. I agree. I
• 1:00:12
  couldn't have said it better myself, sweet, So anyway, that's veganism.
• 1:00:15
  I think I think we sort of round it out, you know, this
• 1:00:19
  is it's something that it's important to me. I think I've been a lot
• 1:00:22
  more sort of preachy fire and brimstone gung home in the past, but I,
• 1:00:25
  like I said, not so much. I think I was a little
• 1:00:29
  little less flexible about how I saw other people's participation and whether they called themselves
• 1:00:32
  begin or not than I used to be, but I think I've sort of
• 1:00:36
  grown up around that, and I always hated the speeda message of fear and
• 1:00:40
  anger and hatred and like it's bad. Yeah, this like good riddance getting
• 1:00:45
  bitten by a shark, Like what the hell is that? Like? No,
• 1:00:49
  we should never celebrate the suffering over the humans, particularly an instances like
• 1:00:52
  that. PETA is ridiculous. They are ridiculous. Just so that everybody here
• 1:00:57
  is aware, most vegans think that PETA is ridiculous us. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:01:00
  not on board with that messaging at all. They're the Westboro Baptist Church
• 1:01:04
  of vegans. That is such a good analogy. Wow, everything about that.
• 1:01:13
  But that's really really it's real, it's really what it is. So
• 1:01:16
  but they're also letigious. So you know, we don't have lawyers. Don't
• 1:01:20
  see us. Don't tell them that. They can't know that we don't have
• 1:01:23
  lawyers. They well, we'll get one anyway. I think that's all we
• 1:01:29
  have for this until we get some recommendations. You are for recommendations. Let's
• 1:01:32
  do it perfect. And actually before we do that, we always need to
• 1:01:35
  shut out our acknowledgments really quick which is that if you liked what you heard
• 1:01:37
  today and would like to support us, thank you a little bit surprised,
• 1:01:40
  but that's great. You can like and subscribe, follow, we'll leave a
• 1:01:43
  rating and review all the things that you do on podcast. Pick up some
• 1:01:45
  merch at our merg store. Join us on Patreon. If you do,
• 1:01:47
  get all kinds of bonus things like early episodes, ad free episodes, and
• 1:01:51
  that sort of thing. We're really looking to grow that community as much as
• 1:01:53
  we can. We have a cool discord server. People can talk to each
• 1:01:55
  other, they can argue with us. If we get enough people, we'll
• 1:01:59
  start hanging out y'all virtually. Because we'd like to sort of celebrate the growth
• 1:02:02
  in our community, so considered coming on and joining us on patron to get
• 1:02:07
  those things. The people who have already made that leap, This amazing group
• 1:02:09
  of humans that makes it possible for us to do the things that we like
• 1:02:13
  to do includes Mike, m Meghan, Layla, Mike t, Justin,
• 1:02:17
  Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian, and Ashley.
• 1:02:21
  Thank you so much. Thank you also to my team of people without whom
• 1:02:23
  I could not do this show. Thank you to Justin for his music and
• 1:02:28
  editing, Shane writing fact checking, and in particular your work on today's episode.
• 1:02:32
  And of course thank you too, Emma Willson as our social media coordinator
• 1:02:36
  who helps us stay present on the Worldwide Web. Yes, yes, that
• 1:02:39
  ever growing internet place. Yes, indeed. Now I think I'm ready for
• 1:02:44
  recommendations. Let's do itations. I am recommending a beverage. It is called
• 1:02:57
  Liquid Death. Yes, it is a sparkling water. They can be a
• 1:03:00
  bit pricey, but I've found them for very reasonable prices as well. They
• 1:03:05
  use really good food puns and some of their flavor titles like they have Severed
• 1:03:09
  Lime and rest in Peach and Armless Palmer, and so they're all they're just
• 1:03:15
  meant to be funny and kind of silly that they're really large for sparkling water
• 1:03:19
  cans, which I find necessary because I go through a lot of sparkling water
• 1:03:22
  cans. Yeah, and so anyway, if you enjoy that nice sparkling water
• 1:03:25
  mouth feel, I would recommend checking out Liquid Death's good stuff. Yeah,
• 1:03:29
  it's a good product. I like it. I like it speaking of because
• 1:03:32
  you know, it's fun, because it's like run by metal heads, like
• 1:03:35
  it's it's very clearly like people who appreciate like alternative music, and I really
• 1:03:38
  like that, so I've been right. Speaking of alternative music, I recommend
• 1:03:43
  a new album that just came out by a band called Ringworm. Have you
• 1:03:45
  ever listened to Ringworm? I've never listened to Ringworm. Ringworm might be the
• 1:03:50
  maddest band that has ever existed. Okay, they used to be a hardcore
• 1:03:54
  band. They turned into like kind of more of a thrash metal band.
• 1:03:57
  And their new record is called Seeing through Fire, and specifically I recommend the
• 1:04:01
  songs No saw Us, No Quarter, No Mercy as One Song, or
• 1:04:05
  death Hoax, both very good songs. The singer's name is human Furnace first
• 1:04:12
  name. I think his full name his Christian birth name is Oh, you'd
• 1:04:16
  be so mad if I said that his real name is something different, but
• 1:04:19
  it's obviously a human furnace. He sounds like a human furnace. That's exactly
• 1:04:23
  what he sounds like. He's so me yat. Their new record is so
• 1:04:26
  good. It's just a really good, like thrash metal record. Fun parkour
• 1:04:29
  dudes that started writing thrash metal and do it really competently. Oh fun,
• 1:04:33
  Yeah, all right, well, very good if you would like to tell
• 1:04:36
  us about ringworm or liquid death, or veganism, or anything related to something
• 1:04:41
  we talked about in this show, you should definitely reach out to us.
• 1:04:43
  You can email us directly info at WWDWWD podcast dot com, or on all
• 1:04:46
  the social media platforms. We look forward to hearing from each and every one
• 1:04:49
  of you, so please send us your messages and if you like it,
• 1:04:51
  we might even read it on air exactly, so that could be a thing
• 1:04:55
  that happens. And I think that is pretty much all I have anything for
• 1:04:58
  you, Shane, or anything before I forgot before we wrap up. Uh
• 1:05:01
  No, I think that covers it. Oh I did, I almost forgot.
• 1:05:04
  I should have mentioned this at the top of this podcast. Awards are
• 1:05:08
  closing and go to podcast Awards dot com. We're under the Skeptics Guide category.
• 1:05:12
  Can vote for us for podcasts People's Choice Awards sort of thing, and
• 1:05:15
  we'd be very honored. We were honored just to be nominated. So thank
• 1:05:17
  you all, yes, please please please go vote, Thank you for listening,
• 1:05:20
  Thank you for recording with me today. Shane, and I think that's
• 1:05:24
  it. So this is Abraham, this is Shane. We're out. See
• 1:05:27
  Yah you've been listening to Why We Do What We Do. You can learn
• 1:05:30
  more about this and other episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks
• 1:05:36
  for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day. All right,
• 1:05:57
  but we're actually not psychology about podcasts. We talk talk about the things that
• 1:06:00
  as we said, we talked about the things that people do. What picular
• 1:06:02
  do you say? Hold on? You said, we're not a psychology about podcast