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Bundy Defense Lawyer Talks Bryan Kohberger · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:09
Speaker 1: Pure evil.
0:11
Speaker 2: That is the way that not one, but two men
0:16
Speaker 2: have been described.
0:18
Speaker 1: What else do they have in common?
0:20
Speaker 2: Well, allegedly many many dead bodies.
0:26
Speaker 1: I'm talking about of course.
0:28
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy, who immediately springs to mind whenever a serial
0:34
Speaker 2: killer or pure evil is named. But now, according to
0:40
Speaker 2: many parallels between Ted Bundy, who is called the Coyamega Killer,
0:46
Speaker 2: but he actually killed many, many more women than those
0:49
Speaker 2: murdered in the Kyomega House, many parallels are being drawn
0:54
Speaker 2: between Ted Bundy and Brian Berger, now accused of murdering
1:03
Speaker 2: four beautiful young Idaho students. We believe in their sleep,
1:09
Speaker 2: in their sleep or falling asleep or in bed in
1:14
Speaker 2: the early early morning hours around three am. When Ted
1:21
Speaker 2: Bundy was finally caught after two escapes by the way
1:26
Speaker 2: and convicted and put in the penitentiary, many people thought
1:31
Speaker 2: it would never happen again.
1:35
Speaker 3: Wow, were we wrong? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
1:41
Speaker 3: Thank you for being with.
1:42
Speaker 2: Us here at Foxination in series XM one eleven. Take
1:47
Speaker 2: a listen to parallels of evil the Bundy in Idaho killing.
1:52
Speaker 2: I can only imagine what was going through his mind,
1:56
Speaker 2: the plotting, the planning, the scheming, is very evocative of
2:03
Speaker 2: the Ted Bundy case because we know now that those
2:08
Speaker 2: victims were spying on and stalked upun to slight these victims.
2:12
Speaker 1: And there's really no doubt about it.
2:15
Speaker 2: The comparisons of the parallels between the mo's modus operandi
2:20
Speaker 2: method of operation between Bundy killings and the Idaho murders
2:29
Speaker 2: are eerie, actually very eerie in their similarities. Take a
2:35
Speaker 2: listen to who I now consider to be my friend,
2:39
Speaker 2: Cheryl Thomas.
2:41
Speaker 3: When you read the headlines out of Idaho, what did
2:45
Speaker 3: you think?
2:47
Speaker 4: I was really saddened to hear about the news that
2:50
Speaker 4: that happened.
2:51
Speaker 1: That needs brings Cheryl Thomas out of Quarta has been
2:55
Speaker 1: in there unlawfully attempt to kill a human being.
2:57
Speaker 2: Too.
2:57
Speaker 1: With Cheryl Thomas by being her about him.
2:59
Speaker 3: Back to the arcust moment about her life the night
3:02
Speaker 3: she was attacked in her own.
3:03
Speaker 4: Bed my serial killer Ted Bundy, I could relate. It
3:10
Speaker 4: was a click immediately reaction to that scene.
3:15
Speaker 2: Take a listen now to the neighbor of Cheryl Thomas
3:18
Speaker 2: who was attacked that night by Ted Bundy.
3:21
Speaker 1: This is Debbie, says Rellie.
3:23
Speaker 5: We had been some sleep, we'd come in that night
3:25
Speaker 5: from being out together, and I had heard this. Our
3:29
Speaker 5: house was up on blocks and I heard this loud
3:31
Speaker 5: banging and it startled me. I woke up and I
3:34
Speaker 5: listened for a little bit, and then woke my roommate
3:37
Speaker 5: up and I said, there's something going on next door.
3:41
Speaker 5: And the thing is the wall between Cheryl's side and
3:44
Speaker 5: our side was so thin that we could actually talk
3:46
Speaker 5: to each other through a wall. And we had a
3:49
Speaker 5: system that if there's something we're not feeling right about,
3:52
Speaker 5: we're going to call you. You need to answer your phone,
3:54
Speaker 5: no matter what well. I called over there. I could
3:57
Speaker 5: hear the phone ringing, I could hear Cheryl whimpering, but
4:03
Speaker 5: I just had this real unsettling feeling sick to my stomach.
4:07
Speaker 1: I had no idea what was going on.
4:09
Speaker 5: We thought maybe her cat was having kittens, and there
4:11
Speaker 5: was all this commotion in Churyl's room.
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Speaker 2: For that with me an all star panel to analyze
4:17
Speaker 2: and decipher what we're learning as more and more evidence
4:21
Speaker 2: comes in about the Idaho murders. But first I want
4:25
Speaker 2: to go to Fox News digital investigative reporter Audrey Conklin. Now,
4:31
Speaker 2: just then, Audrey, from our friends at News Nation, We
4:34
Speaker 2: were hearing, Debbie Ciccarelli, and it sounds so much like
4:40
Speaker 2: what Dylan Mortenson said that she heard something and she
4:45
Speaker 2: wasn't quite sure what it sounded like. Now here, Debbie
4:50
Speaker 2: says it sound thought she heard a cat mewing, but
4:54
Speaker 2: what she heard were Bundy's victims moaning during and after
5:01
Speaker 2: the attack.
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Speaker 6: Audrey, Yes, I mean, we've heard similarities from the murders
5:06
Speaker 6: in Moscow that straining or other kinds of noises, banging
5:10
Speaker 6: could be heard through the walls.
5:13
Speaker 7: We know that there was a dog in the building.
5:15
Speaker 7: It's un sure if the dog made any noise. But
5:19
Speaker 7: both of these communities in the nineteen seventies and then
5:22
Speaker 7: last fall were close knit college communities, close in their
5:29
Speaker 7: relationships and close in proximity. So there are a lot
5:32
Speaker 7: of similarities between these two crimes.
5:36
Speaker 2: To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University,
5:42
Speaker 2: author A Blood Beneath My Fate, and host Body Bags
5:46
Speaker 2: with Joe Scott Morgan, who, by the way, is commemorating
5:51
Speaker 2: the one hundred episode of Body Bags this week.
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Speaker 1: Amazingly.
5:57
Speaker 2: Congratulations on that, Joe Scott Morgan, all the good you
5:59
Speaker 2: have done in this world just got the words of
6:04
Speaker 2: Dylan Mortenson. Just keep coming to mind what we know
6:08
Speaker 2: of her words anyway, Guys, Dylan Mortenson is one.
6:11
Speaker 1: Of the two surviving roommates.
6:14
Speaker 2: Dylan Mortenson, we believe, actually saw the murderer who had
6:20
Speaker 2: just slain four sleeping or sleepy college students in Idaho
6:26
Speaker 2: and described him good for her. She went back in
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Speaker 2: her room and shut her door and locked it, not
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Speaker 2: realizing I don't think anyway what she had actually seen
6:36
Speaker 2: or what had actually happened upstairs. But then you've got
6:40
Speaker 2: Bethany Funk also we don't know what she's going to say,
6:44
Speaker 2: who may very well have slept through the whole thing,
6:47
Speaker 2: but remembered the words of Dylan Mortenson. And how that
6:50
Speaker 2: compares to what Debbie Citrurelli heard. It's almost identical, it is.
6:56
Speaker 8: And thanks for having me on today, Nancy, Yeah, it
7:01
Speaker 8: really is. And in such close proximity to evil, and
7:05
Speaker 8: it is pure evil, you know, when we begin to
7:08
Speaker 8: and as you've talked about, these parallels relative between Bundy
7:12
Speaker 8: and Coburger and these events that have gone down, and
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Speaker 8: you have people that are, you know, just in the
7:19
Speaker 8: eye of the stormy they just get brushed by it,
7:24
Speaker 8: but they've wreaked havoc in their wake, these monsters along
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Speaker 8: the way, and these people are all that are left
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Speaker 8: behind to bear witness to this, at least potentially as
7:35
Speaker 8: an ear witness or an eyewitness. In Dylan's case in particular.
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Speaker 8: You know, she's actually the person that we get that identifier,
7:42
Speaker 8: that big identifier. Do you remember back those months ago
7:45
Speaker 8: where she talked about the bushy eyebrows, you know, and
7:48
Speaker 8: that was the one thing that kind of resonated in
7:51
Speaker 8: this particular case.
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Speaker 3: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, please join us now on
8:00
Speaker 3: Fox Nation for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil
8:05
Speaker 3: the Bundy and Idaho killings. In this gripping special investigation,
8:10
Speaker 3: we bring together an incredible panel of guests who analyze
8:14
Speaker 3: disturbing similarities of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak
8:22
Speaker 3: with two female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas,
8:28
Speaker 3: who described their life before and after they were victims
8:34
Speaker 3: of Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private
8:38
Speaker 3: investigator Bill Warner who worked the cases, and Ted Bundy's
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Speaker 3: defense attorney, John Henry Brown. We traveled to Moscow, Idaho,
8:47
Speaker 3: to speak with Washington State University students and interview neighbors
8:52
Speaker 3: of Brian Coburger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights about the
8:57
Speaker 3: suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Coburger. Don't miss Parallels
9:03
Speaker 3: of Evil, the Bundy and I Hope Killings, streaming now
9:07
Speaker 3: exclusively on Fox.
9:08
Speaker 9: Nation Time Stories with Nancy Grease.
9:28
Speaker 2: You know, I was just thinking, I want to go
9:30
Speaker 2: to John Henry Brown. Guys, I know you've heard that
9:32
Speaker 2: name before. He is a renowned lawyer and was Ted
9:38
Speaker 2: Bundy's former defense lawyer.
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Speaker 3: That must give you nightmares at night. You can find
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Speaker 3: John Henry Brown at j h B for John Henry
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Speaker 3: Brown Lawyer dot com. John, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: John. Do you go by John or Henry or John Henry?
9:55
Speaker 10: Oh, either one side. I do a lot of things.
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Speaker 1: I'm going to go with John. Okay, John.
10:01
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about all the literally thousands of criminal defendants
10:06
Speaker 2: that went before me as a prosecutor in intercity Atlanta,
10:10
Speaker 2: very very high crime volume. I mean I would get
10:14
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty new felony cases a week, and
10:18
Speaker 2: many of those were it sounds like a lot many
10:21
Speaker 2: of those were theft by taking theft, by receiving a
10:24
Speaker 2: stolen car, coup pulls over stolen car.
10:26
Speaker 1: There's four guys in it. They all get charged, all right.
10:28
Speaker 3: That's easy to deal with unless they're you know, have
10:32
Speaker 3: a bad record or a simple possession of marijuana or cocaine.
10:37
Speaker 1: You know, it's straight to rehab for you and next.
10:40
Speaker 3: There's so many cases that are easily disposed of.
10:44
Speaker 1: But there are.
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Speaker 3: Those John Henry Brown that when the person walks in
10:50
Speaker 3: the room, the particular judge I had would want me
10:55
Speaker 3: to meet with a defense attorney and bring in the
10:58
Speaker 3: defendant in the conference room. He could be charged with
11:01
Speaker 3: mass murder, cereal rapists, didn't matter, and we would go
11:05
Speaker 3: through the case and I would explain what the state
11:07
Speaker 3: had at that juncture against them and offer a plea
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Speaker 3: deal or just say no deal.
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Speaker 1: You're going to trial, you big a hole.
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Speaker 2: So long story short, there were those defendants that when
11:19
Speaker 2: they would walk in and then walk out later, you
11:23
Speaker 2: just had the creepiest feeling about them. Did you ever
11:30
Speaker 2: have that feeling about Bundy?
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Speaker 10: Oh? Yeah, constantly.
11:34
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, okay, I didn't know if you were going
11:37
Speaker 3: to go to your grave going He's innocent. But that said, Okay,
11:41
Speaker 3: I want to hear about the creepy feeling. Are you listening,
11:43
Speaker 3: doctor Bethany Marshall? Okay, you're not going to find any
11:46
Speaker 3: of this and your psychoanalytic books. This is true, Okay,
11:51
Speaker 3: John Henry Brown, I want to hear about the feeling.
11:53
Speaker 10: Well, when I first met it, he came across as
11:56
Speaker 10: kind of a cricature of a preppy sort of guy.
11:59
Speaker 10: But really got creepy was he was out of custody
12:02
Speaker 10: after you've been released in Utah.
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Speaker 3: Oh my stars, wait wait wait, wait, that's right. He
12:09
Speaker 3: was out of custody.
12:11
Speaker 1: Free to continue killing people.
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Speaker 3: And you said he was like a caricature of a
12:17
Speaker 3: preppy person.
12:18
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?
12:19
Speaker 10: Oh? You know he was. He was trying to blend
12:21
Speaker 10: in with the Republican folks in Washington. We had a
12:27
Speaker 10: really great governor back there, Dan Evans was our governor,
12:30
Speaker 10: and I ended up working for Dan. That's how I
12:33
Speaker 10: got to ted is that somebody in Dan's staff recommended
12:36
Speaker 10: me jed. The really creepy things started happening when you know,
12:40
Speaker 10: I meet with him on Saturday, and then the next
12:43
Speaker 10: Wednesday he'd show up to be wearing like the exact
12:46
Speaker 10: same clothes I was wearing. And he'd asked me where
12:48
Speaker 10: I hit my clothes wearing? Hit my shoes? What kind
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Speaker 10: of car I drove? What kind of women?
12:52
Speaker 1: The Okay?
12:52
Speaker 3: Why there's just wait, John Henry, you're telling me so
12:55
Speaker 3: much to the rest of the panel, please cite this in.
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Speaker 1: I've got I've got to ferret this out. Wait. So
13:02
Speaker 1: he had to ask you where where.
13:03
Speaker 2: Did you get that jacket? Where'd you get that shirt?
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Speaker 2: What card you drive? What women do you date? I
13:07
Speaker 2: find that interesting. He just throws the women in like
13:10
Speaker 2: you can buy one at the mall.
13:12
Speaker 3: Where'd you get that shirt? Where'd you get that day?
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Speaker 3: Where'd she come from? Okay, that's a whole other can
13:17
Speaker 3: of worms. But then he'd show up wearing like the
13:20
Speaker 3: same outfit essentially that you were wearing.
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Speaker 10: Right, and one of the creepiest I don't know if
13:24
Speaker 10: you know about I wrote a book.
13:25
Speaker 1: Wait, no, I did not know about you. But what
13:28
Speaker 1: is the name of your book?
13:30
Speaker 10: It's called The Devil's Defender.
13:31
Speaker 1: The Devil's Defender is that on Amazon?
13:34
Speaker 10: Yeah? Actually, Amazon editor has voted at the best non fiction.
13:38
Speaker 1: Book of that year, but best what book?
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Speaker 10: Best nonfiction of that year.
13:42
Speaker 2: The Devil's Defender. Oh okay, I know what I'm going
13:45
Speaker 2: to do on vacation. I'm reading The Devil's Defender.
13:48
Speaker 10: So one of the creepiest things in the whole Bundee
13:51
Speaker 10: adventure was he told me in Tallahassee and the jail there,
13:56
Speaker 10: when I'd secured a plea barb for chet. I don't
13:58
Speaker 10: know a lot of people don't know that, but I
14:00
Speaker 10: had secured a flea blogging to save his life. And
14:03
Speaker 10: one of those meetings in the jail in Tallahassee, he
14:06
Speaker 10: I'm walking out of the jail cell. They gave me
14:08
Speaker 10: free access to him, and he said, the reason you've
14:12
Speaker 10: been my advisor so long and attorney at times is
14:15
Speaker 10: because we're so much oud life.
14:16
Speaker 1: But that made you feel good.
14:18
Speaker 10: I remember looking in the mirror in this cheap hotel
14:20
Speaker 10: in Tallahassee and saying, you know, why are you doing this?
14:23
Speaker 10: This is you don't want to be around this kind
14:25
Speaker 10: of evil. I never believe people could be born evil
14:28
Speaker 10: until I met Ched, So my attitude about that changed dramatically.
14:34
Speaker 1: Okay, do you think he's haunted you?
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Speaker 10: I don't think so.
14:37
Speaker 2: I was ready for a good ghost story right now
14:40
Speaker 2: and then you just blew it.
14:41
Speaker 1: Thank you.
14:42
Speaker 10: Huh No. I think you and I have some similarities
14:44
Speaker 10: that when I'm nineteen seventy one in Washington, c when
14:47
Speaker 10: I was in law school, my girlfriend was in Berkeley
14:50
Speaker 10: going to graduate school and she was murdered. So I
14:53
Speaker 10: have this kind of a dual role of zealous coming
14:57
Speaker 10: on defense attorney and at the same time being the
14:59
Speaker 10: victim of homicide. She was in Berkeley, and I didn't
15:02
Speaker 10: of course, didn't they get anything to do with it.
15:04
Speaker 10: I could never live with myself. But he did tell
15:07
Speaker 10: me later on in communications that he was active in
15:10
Speaker 10: California as well as seven or eight other states. As
15:14
Speaker 10: if I could jump to something that I think is
15:16
Speaker 10: kind of interesting between between he and Colberger is Colberger
15:22
Speaker 10: goes from a state Washington, where there's no death penalty
15:27
Speaker 10: and an insanity defense to a state ten miles away
15:33
Speaker 10: where there's no insanity defense and there's a death penalty.
15:37
Speaker 10: When Tad escaped the first time in Aspen, I threw
15:40
Speaker 10: when he got arrested and went to him in the
15:43
Speaker 10: Picking County jail in Aspen and the Picking County courthouses.
15:48
Speaker 10: Who have you been there? Nanty.
15:50
Speaker 3: Yes, And not only have I been there, I have
15:52
Speaker 3: interviewed a sheriff, a rookie sheriff that transported Bundy.
15:59
Speaker 1: What a story I've told.
16:00
Speaker 10: Yeah, I visited him a couple of days. That's after
16:03
Speaker 10: his first escape anyway. So I go down to the
16:05
Speaker 10: holding cell in the basement, which is the old fashioned
16:08
Speaker 10: kind with the flat bars, and Ted's sleeping on the floor,
16:10
Speaker 10: and one of the guards kicks the gate, said you
16:14
Speaker 10: got to visit visitor Bundy. And then Ted wakes up,
16:17
Speaker 10: looks at me, and he goes, John, did you figure
16:19
Speaker 10: out which one of those guys pushed me out of
16:21
Speaker 10: the window.
16:23
Speaker 1: After his escape?
16:24
Speaker 2: For those of you that don't know, Bundy escaped out
16:28
Speaker 2: an upstairs window in the courthouse. I believe it was
16:31
Speaker 2: the law library, wasn't it, John Henry.
16:33
Speaker 10: Yes. During that meeting with him, or one of those
16:36
Speaker 10: games over a few days, I advised him to waive
16:40
Speaker 10: extradition from Utah, where they kill people all the time
16:44
Speaker 10: in the duckt tally the cases to go to Colorado.
16:47
Speaker 10: Because I got to Colorado death pedalty statue was probably
16:49
Speaker 10: un constitutional. So I told him that, and Ted asked me.
16:55
Speaker 10: He said, well, John where would I go if I
16:56
Speaker 10: really wanted to get the death penalty? And you know
16:59
Speaker 10: what I said, Florida, Florida or Texas. Then he escapes
17:03
Speaker 10: the second time and goes to the number of states
17:06
Speaker 10: and ends up in ann Arbor, Michigan, which did not
17:09
Speaker 10: have the death devily at that point. And he's watching
17:12
Speaker 10: the Rose Bowl and she's a little ticker tape on
17:15
Speaker 10: the bottom and said on the escaped he's already been
17:17
Speaker 10: gone for a day and a half. But he goes
17:20
Speaker 10: from state to state where there is insanity defenses and
17:25
Speaker 10: no death enalty, and goes to a small college down
17:28
Speaker 10: in Florida. And so Colberger goes from Washington state where
17:32
Speaker 10: there's really no death dealty and there's active insanity defense
17:37
Speaker 10: to a state where various no defendent insanity defense and
17:42
Speaker 10: they have the death penel.
17:43
Speaker 2: Well, and hey, don't rush through your stories. What you're
17:46
Speaker 2: telling us are thanks. Many people don't know.
17:50
Speaker 1: I have never known.
17:52
Speaker 2: So Del Carson with me, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville,
17:57
Speaker 2: former FED with the FBI, instructor at the FBI Academy,
18:03
Speaker 2: who taught the case of Ted Bundy and author of
18:07
Speaker 2: Arrest Proof for Yourself, you can find him at del
18:09
Speaker 2: Carson Law dot com. Deal what about that, I've never
18:14
Speaker 2: heard that story where John Henry Brown walks in, they
18:19
Speaker 2: wake Bundy up, and he goes, hey, who pushed me
18:22
Speaker 2: through that library window?
18:24
Speaker 1: He had tried he escapes, I mean the right.
18:27
Speaker 11: The anecdotal stories that emanate out of people like this
18:32
Speaker 11: is pretty incredible, really, and it surprises me some that
18:38
Speaker 11: you know, these attacks both the Kyle MegaHouse and in Idaho.
18:43
Speaker 11: You know, we're done basically at the same time, not
18:46
Speaker 11: the same day. Bundy's was done on a Tuesday, and
18:50
Speaker 11: people don't realize that the Bureau and other agencies at
18:54
Speaker 11: that time set out investigators, police officers who identify everybody
19:00
Speaker 11: in field interrogations that were wandering around Tallahassee during that
19:06
Speaker 11: period of time, you know, from ten PM until five am,
19:12
Speaker 11: and we found that roughly sixty percent of the people
19:17
Speaker 11: who were walking around in Tallahassee back in seventy four
19:22
Speaker 11: were convicted criminals. So that was something that my takeaway
19:27
Speaker 11: from that all was that people who wander around in
19:31
Speaker 11: the middle of the night, even in a college town,
19:34
Speaker 11: really are causing trouble and looking for trouble and certainly
19:38
Speaker 11: that was Bundy, you know, who went in as an
19:40
Speaker 11: anger excitation rapist and killed two girls and injured severely
19:47
Speaker 11: some others. I mean, it's similar to what Coburger did
19:50
Speaker 11: in terms of his anger excitation, which of course we
19:55
Speaker 11: recognize now he was able to slaughter five people terrible.
20:01
Speaker 10: Therefore beds the night out on that prime.
20:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, I want to go to doctor
20:05
Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall and then Bill Warner joining us Doctor Bethany
20:08
Speaker 2: Marshall joining us Psychoanalyside of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethanymarshall
20:14
Speaker 2: dot com Doctor Bethany Hearing John Henry Brown speaking about
20:20
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy, it reinforces what we have been told about Bundy,
20:26
Speaker 2: that he could be charming and witty and funny and
20:30
Speaker 2: blend in. So these women meeting him were immediately put
20:37
Speaker 2: at ease.
20:38
Speaker 1: He was really good at it.
20:40
Speaker 12: Of course, Nancy. And this is how we learn about sociopaths.
20:44
Speaker 12: It's not from reading out of a textbook or looking
20:47
Speaker 12: at the research or even walking through a jail. It's
20:50
Speaker 12: through hearing stories from people like John where he has
20:54
Speaker 12: this up close and personal experience like we're going to
20:58
Speaker 12: have with Coberger in thecoming trial. And the clothing aspect
21:03
Speaker 12: is so fascinating to me. I could pick apart all
21:06
Speaker 12: these details, but I'll just pick up on a couple
21:09
Speaker 12: of them. One detail is the clothing. He wanted to
21:13
Speaker 12: dress like John. He wanted to charm and impress John.
21:17
Speaker 12: And I'm thinking about a male associopath who came to
21:20
Speaker 12: my office in Beverly Hills, who was about to be
21:22
Speaker 12: unguided for this multi level marketing scheme where he had
21:27
Speaker 12: taken millions and millions of dollars from people. It was
21:30
Speaker 12: like a cult. People would gather in this huge room
21:33
Speaker 12: and kind of worship him. They would all do this
21:36
Speaker 12: laying on a hand ceremony where the crowd would ripple
21:39
Speaker 12: from the back to the front and you know, send
21:42
Speaker 12: positive energy and light towards him. And the first thing
21:46
Speaker 12: I noticed when I opened the door to my waiting
21:48
Speaker 12: room in Beverly Hills was his clothing. He had like
21:53
Speaker 12: Gucci pants, protest sunglasses, some kind of fancy shoes. I mean,
22:00
Speaker 12: he was really dressed like he was going to be
22:04
Speaker 12: out on a photo shoot. And I knew in a
22:06
Speaker 12: second I had this creepy feeling of he's trying to
22:09
Speaker 12: impress me. He's like a chameleon. It's like the clothes
22:13
Speaker 12: make the man. He thinks that if I see all
22:16
Speaker 12: this beautiful clothing, I'm not going to see through to
22:18
Speaker 12: the heart of who he really is. So the clothing
22:21
Speaker 12: aspect doesn't surprise me. The idea of I think you
22:25
Speaker 12: said sixty four percent of people wandering around in the
22:29
Speaker 12: middle of the night in a college town being criminals
22:32
Speaker 12: of some sort, and the fact that with Coberger and Bundy,
22:36
Speaker 12: both these crimes took place in sorority houses, and this
22:39
Speaker 12: doesn't surprise me. This parallel because women between the ages
22:44
Speaker 12: of eighteen and twenty two or twenty three, they're young,
22:48
Speaker 12: they're beautiful, they're out and about. They are readily available
22:54
Speaker 12: the sociopath. The sociopath can walk up, doc to them,
22:58
Speaker 12: charm them, figure out where they live, and typically they
23:03
Speaker 12: have very low levels of security around them. And I
23:07
Speaker 12: could go on and on, but these girls are like
23:10
Speaker 12: sitting ducks. And I think this is one of the
23:12
Speaker 12: most prominent similarities I see is in the victim selection
23:17
Speaker 12: and the profiling of the women that two of these
23:21
Speaker 12: two men murdered guys.
23:22
Speaker 2: We explore all of this and parallels of Evil, which
23:26
Speaker 2: is running right now on Fox Nation.
23:29
Speaker 1: It was a herculean effort.
23:32
Speaker 3: We all went to Idaho in the snow, in the cold,
23:36
Speaker 3: retraced coburger steps, visited the crime scene. Take a listen
23:42
Speaker 3: to Parallels of Evil the Bundy in Idaho killing.
23:47
Speaker 2: Standing right here, I can see straight in the sliding
23:52
Speaker 2: glass doors you see inside, and it's not even illuminated
23:56
Speaker 2: right now. This makes it very clear to me how
24:01
Speaker 2: easy it was to get to that downstairs sliding glass door.
24:06
Speaker 2: We've been asked many times how close is this to campus. Well,
24:10
Speaker 2: there's a Seve McCay house right there. I can see
24:13
Speaker 2: in their windows. Right behind that is a hill that
24:16
Speaker 2: we have been seeing people walking back and forth to classes.
24:20
Speaker 2: The campus water tower is right there, and all along
24:25
Speaker 2: this street in front of eleven twenty two King, all
24:28
Speaker 2: day long into the night, students with their backpacks have
24:31
Speaker 2: been going back and forth to classes into campus. So
24:35
Speaker 2: this is a vantage point with a bird's eye views.
24:40
Speaker 2: I wonder if by the time this goes to a jury,
24:43
Speaker 2: if the jury is going to be brought here, if
24:46
Speaker 2: they're going to stand here just like I'm standing here,
24:49
Speaker 2: just like where I think Brian Coburger stood here at night,
24:55
Speaker 2: in the cover of darkness, looking in at the girls.
24:59
Speaker 1: It's the birds view into their bedrooms.
25:03
Speaker 2: Everything we could think of to explore and investigate this case,
25:07
Speaker 2: to Coburger's apartment, to his neighbors, to his school, everywhere
25:14
Speaker 2: we could think of that Coburger was.
25:18
Speaker 1: We went. Listen to this. We are off the pavement.
25:22
Speaker 2: Now we're on a dirt top road, seemingly in the
25:26
Speaker 2: middle of nothing, following Coburger's route from the so called
25:31
Speaker 2: murder house back to his apartment in Pullman. And as
25:35
Speaker 2: you can see, there is nothing, no lights, no homes,
25:40
Speaker 2: no businesses as far as the I can see. I
25:44
Speaker 2: just got out of this SCV and looked around that night.
25:50
Speaker 2: Could be anywhere. If you don't want to run into anybody,
25:55
Speaker 2: this is the place to be. It is pitch dark
25:58
Speaker 2: out there.
25:59
Speaker 1: You can't see.
26:00
Speaker 2: Thing past forty feet in front of your car, and
26:04
Speaker 2: there are a million places to hide. A nine.
26:10
Speaker 1: You don't just fall onto this back road right here.
26:13
Speaker 1: You got to know where you're going.
26:15
Speaker 8: Between two.
26:17
Speaker 2: Snowdrifts on either side, you got to know where you're.
26:21
Speaker 3: Going to Bill Warren joining me private investigator, you can
26:25
Speaker 3: find him at WBPI dot com. Bill, thank you for
26:31
Speaker 3: being with us.
26:32
Speaker 1: Bill.
26:33
Speaker 2: Have you ever encountered a client, a defendant, a suspect
26:39
Speaker 2: who just used evil?
26:41
Speaker 5: Oh?
26:41
Speaker 10: Of course not.
26:42
Speaker 13: But what I find most interesting, though, is what John
26:46
Speaker 13: mentioned about Bundy during the trial and Tallahassee. Bundy never
26:52
Speaker 13: really would admit to his guilt. Even when he was
26:56
Speaker 13: offered a plea deal for seventy five years in prison,
27:00
Speaker 13: he passed on it and went ahead with a trial.
27:03
Speaker 13: Of course, has felled guilty and went to old sparky.
27:06
Speaker 13: But I'm seeing sort of a parallel with Dka already.
27:12
Speaker 13: When he was arringed recently, the judge asked for you know,
27:16
Speaker 13: guilty and not guilty plea. He wouldn't talk, and the
27:21
Speaker 13: attorney for him, two attorneys for him, didn't weigh in
27:24
Speaker 13: with you know, a non guilty or guilty. The judge
27:27
Speaker 13: had to give the not guilty plea. It looks to
27:31
Speaker 13: me like Coburger is trying to overtake his attorneys already,
27:35
Speaker 13: he's going to make a show of this, which of
27:39
Speaker 13: course Bundy did big time. Looking into both of these guys, Faberger,
27:44
Speaker 13: is he does he want to be Bundy? I think
27:46
Speaker 13: he does Folberger to me, I see this this clone
27:51
Speaker 13: of Bundy.
27:52
Speaker 10: This is John Henry. Let me jump in here on
27:54
Speaker 10: because there's been a lot of discussions about why his
27:57
Speaker 10: attorney at Coberger's attorneys asked the replea. And there's no
28:03
Speaker 10: insanity defense in Idaho, which is interesting because I thought
28:07
Speaker 10: it was constitutional under mcgontten. But anyway, when I've tried
28:13
Speaker 10: tied or three indred cases and been doing this for
28:16
Speaker 10: a long time, if I have a client that I
28:18
Speaker 10: think is incompetence, legally incompetent, I will not allow them
28:23
Speaker 10: to Replease. I don't think you're here at all.
28:26
Speaker 2: Well wait a minute, John Henry Brown, I see what
28:28
Speaker 2: you're saying. Because mental incompetency everybody different from insanity. Insanity
28:33
Speaker 2: under the Ole McNaughton rule, which is brought to the
28:35
Speaker 2: US from Great Britain, where we get our common law
28:38
Speaker 2: is did you know right from wrong at the time
28:41
Speaker 2: of the incident.
28:42
Speaker 1: If you didn't, you're crazy.
28:44
Speaker 2: Incompetency means you can you're you're so out of it
28:47
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, you cannot.
28:49
Speaker 1: Assist your lawyers at trial.
28:51
Speaker 2: Now, this jurisdiction Idaho does have incompetency if he can
28:55
Speaker 2: interplea and stand up and say not guilty.
28:59
Speaker 1: That indicse he can help his lawyer, which.
29:03
Speaker 3: Would, as John Henry Brown is pointing out, defeat an
29:07
Speaker 3: incompetency claim.
29:09
Speaker 1: That's very stupid, right.
29:10
Speaker 10: I think ethically a defense lawyer can't allow its plis
29:13
Speaker 10: to make a plea if the lawyer has reasonable beliefs
29:17
Speaker 10: that they may be incompetent. Now may be the only
29:21
Speaker 10: card to play in Idaho.
29:22
Speaker 1: It may be.
29:23
Speaker 2: But what they'll do is send him to a hospital
29:25
Speaker 2: and get him quote well unquote and an old face trial.
29:28
Speaker 10: Yes, exactly.
29:43
Speaker 9: Time stories with Nancy Grace.
29:47
Speaker 2: I want to follow up on something to Augy Conklin
29:50
Speaker 2: and Joe Scott Morgan, Joe Scott. First to you, Professor Forensics,
29:54
Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott, we're talking about how.
29:59
Speaker 1: Charming Bundy was.
30:02
Speaker 2: I well, describe what he would do post mortem after
30:09
Speaker 2: murdering his victims.
30:11
Speaker 8: Well, one of the things that he would do is
30:14
Speaker 8: he would he was actually somewhat of a necrophile, Nancy,
30:19
Speaker 8: which means that he was intimate with the dead.
30:23
Speaker 3: Why do you talk like that he had sex with
30:26
Speaker 3: dead bodies and dead body parts.
30:28
Speaker 1: That's what you're saying, yeah, he did.
30:33
Speaker 8: Well, No, I don't think that it's trauma at all, certainly,
30:36
Speaker 8: And I've seen cases like this involving serial serial perpetrators
30:41
Speaker 8: in the past, particularly when they get into areas like
30:44
Speaker 8: the posing of the dead, this kind of fantastical thing
30:47
Speaker 8: that they do.
30:49
Speaker 2: He was freak yeah, redress the victims, put makeup on them,
30:54
Speaker 2: and he.
30:54
Speaker 8: Would actually go back and disinter the dead as well.
30:57
Speaker 8: And so yeah, there's there's that kind of thread that
31:00
Speaker 8: runs through this, and it's almost like a continued destruction
31:04
Speaker 8: of the dead to be able to manipulate them, play
31:07
Speaker 8: around with them, those sorts of things, which adds a
31:10
Speaker 8: completely a different layer of horror to all of this,
31:15
Speaker 8: and it really goes to how deeply sadistic he was.
31:19
Speaker 8: And you know, one other other fact about Bundy is
31:22
Speaker 8: that Bundy derived quite a bit of pleasure from a
31:26
Speaker 8: very specific thing, and that's biting. He enjoyed biting his
31:32
Speaker 8: victims because he could actually experience their discomfort and their
31:36
Speaker 8: pain as a result of driving his teeth, you know,
31:39
Speaker 8: for instance, into their backside, into their shoulders, into their
31:42
Speaker 8: back and of course, back then, bite Mark was still
31:46
Speaker 8: held in very high esteem and it was actually used well.
31:50
Speaker 2: Bundy did have an unusual set of chompers.
31:54
Speaker 8: He did.
31:54
Speaker 2: He did stumpared to biding into jello. I don't put
31:57
Speaker 2: a lot of stock in forensic dentistry.
31:59
Speaker 10: No.
32:00
Speaker 2: In Brundy's case, his teeth marks were so unusual that
32:06
Speaker 2: I think it can be trusted.
32:08
Speaker 1: In Bundy's.
32:10
Speaker 10: The bite Martin Kenna is not really persuasive, and because
32:15
Speaker 10: it wasn't Joe Nancy was pigs that the odontologist had
32:20
Speaker 10: people bite into, which I had had some fun with him.
32:23
Speaker 10: At one point it.
32:24
Speaker 2: Was Margaret Bowman that had the bite marks. Thank you
32:28
Speaker 2: John Henry Brown for telling me that.
32:30
Speaker 10: Another thing to keep in mind with one of the
32:32
Speaker 10: things that I find striking about Colberg and Brundy is
32:35
Speaker 10: that there was no sex involved in the death of
32:40
Speaker 10: the women at Cairomega, And there was no sex as
32:44
Speaker 10: far as I know, as far as the situation. You're right,
32:47
Speaker 10: and I talked to Ted about these things that length.
32:50
Speaker 10: He would more often than not not have sex with
32:53
Speaker 10: his victims, but there are times when he would.
32:56
Speaker 2: I guess he was more to having sex with him
32:57
Speaker 2: after they were dead and their body parts.
33:00
Speaker 1: What about it? Jos Scott the.
33:01
Speaker 8: Fact again playing with the dead, you know, where you
33:05
Speaker 8: have this inanimate individual that they can manipulate, and you
33:08
Speaker 8: see it in a lot of these cases. You just
33:10
Speaker 8: look at Dahmer, you know, he wanted to create these
33:13
Speaker 8: kind of zombies that he could manipulate and do things
33:16
Speaker 8: with them, and otherwise an uncontrolled life. Perhaps I don't
33:19
Speaker 8: know I'm getting into doctor Bethany's area, but suffice it
33:23
Speaker 8: to say that, you know, it was a depraved mind,
33:29
Speaker 8: certainly in his particular case. And we see a lot
33:31
Speaker 8: of these, and that's one of the things that really
33:33
Speaker 8: goes to coburger for me, Nancy, because he had access
33:38
Speaker 8: to this particular dwelling. We don't think that at this
33:41
Speaker 8: point in time that there's any kind of sexual assault,
33:43
Speaker 8: but that doesn't mean that these were not a sexualized
33:46
Speaker 8: event and he could be living this stuff out in
33:49
Speaker 8: his mind. I've always been interested, very interested since that apartment,
33:56
Speaker 8: since that home in Idaho was so easily accessible. Had
33:59
Speaker 8: he been in there before? Did he have a hide
34:02
Speaker 8: perhaps in one of those closets. Did they look for
34:05
Speaker 8: touch DNA? Did they look for old seminal stains in
34:08
Speaker 8: those closets where he could sit there and observe individuals,
34:12
Speaker 8: perhaps the victims that he targeted, and watch everything they
34:16
Speaker 8: were doing without him, without them knowing that he was there.
34:20
Speaker 11: Joe, what about the stab wounds in their appearance, where
34:22
Speaker 11: were they?
34:23
Speaker 8: Well, the stab wounds are through over multiple surfaces from
34:29
Speaker 8: what we're understanding right now, And of course there's a
34:32
Speaker 8: lot of people that allege this is a people in
34:35
Speaker 8: academia that there is a close correlation between stabbing and
34:39
Speaker 8: sexualization of the dead. It's the thought of thrusting with
34:43
Speaker 8: a knife over and over and over. It's a penetrative
34:46
Speaker 8: event and again you' wreaking just incredible havoc. There's an
34:51
Speaker 8: awareness of it too. There is an awareness certainly on
34:55
Speaker 8: one of the victims that we know of, because she's
34:57
Speaker 8: got defensive wounds on her where she was a where
35:00
Speaker 8: that she was being stabbed. And I think you probably
35:02
Speaker 8: derive pleasure from the guys.
35:03
Speaker 2: I want to circle back to Audrey Conklin, joining us
35:06
Speaker 2: investigative crime reporter for Fox News Digital, who has been
35:10
Speaker 2: on the Coburger case from the get go. Audrey, again,
35:13
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us when in our special
35:17
Speaker 2: investigation Parallels of Evil, where we go back to Ida
35:20
Speaker 2: and retrace steps and visit every location that we can
35:25
Speaker 2: think of to shine light on the investigation. We began
35:31
Speaker 2: comparing Bundy and Coburger. Now, Audrey, did you hear us
35:38
Speaker 2: talking about how Bundy could be very charming and could
35:43
Speaker 2: blend in even with his own lawyer, John Henry Brown,
35:46
Speaker 2: who's with us right now. I'm thinking about Coburger and
35:51
Speaker 2: how he tried to insinuate himself in the victims' lives
35:56
Speaker 2: on social media. So he was stalking them long before
36:00
Speaker 2: they were murdered, based on what we've been told.
36:02
Speaker 1: Anyway, we don't.
36:04
Speaker 2: Know if the girls read it or not, but trying
36:08
Speaker 2: to insinuate himself in their lives. But he did not
36:12
Speaker 2: have the natural charm that Bundy had.
36:16
Speaker 1: He couldn't turn it on and turn it off. Listen.
36:18
Speaker 14: When I met his dad, he was like, so a
36:22
Speaker 14: song was down outside at first because the gun was
36:24
Speaker 14: out there. Brian must have been organizing the out of
36:27
Speaker 14: the apartment. He was like, why should beat my son?
36:29
Speaker 10: Brian?
36:30
Speaker 1: And he has some trouble making trend sometime.
36:33
Speaker 14: And then he came down and he was a little odd,
36:36
Speaker 14: you know, but I'm kind of honest on people, so
36:38
Speaker 14: I didn't think much of it.
36:39
Speaker 2: Remember how he almost, well not almost, he did get
36:43
Speaker 2: thrown out of bars for walking up to women and
36:47
Speaker 2: trying to, I guess, flirt with him. And his opening
36:51
Speaker 2: line would be, Hey, what's your home address?
36:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that didn't work. The emails or the social
36:57
Speaker 3: media didn't work. So I wonder if he then escalated
37:01
Speaker 3: a spy on them in some manner the way just
37:04
Speaker 3: Scott Morgan is describing. So what do you make of
37:08
Speaker 3: his just innate, unsophisticated, and somewhat of stumbling bumpkin approach
37:18
Speaker 3: to women. Audrey Conkline, that's a stark difference between the two.
37:22
Speaker 7: It is, And that's kind of the difference between a
37:25
Speaker 7: crime in the nineteen seventies and today we have. Social
37:29
Speaker 7: media is a huge part of it, right, And there's
37:32
Speaker 7: speculation that he followed the victims on social media. They
37:36
Speaker 7: were in sororities, as we know, they had social media
37:39
Speaker 7: presences that were public. They had pretty pictures on Instagram
37:43
Speaker 7: and other accounts, So yeah, their social lives were out
37:48
Speaker 7: there for him to see. And if he was not
37:50
Speaker 7: having luck with them online, because a lot of flirting
37:53
Speaker 7: takes place online or even just talking communication nowadays between
37:57
Speaker 7: college students. You know, we know from the affidavit that
38:02
Speaker 7: he drove by the house before the crimes, and after
38:07
Speaker 7: the and after the murders or allegedly you know, his
38:11
Speaker 7: car was picked up in that area. So we know
38:15
Speaker 7: that there was a speculator, a fascination there with the victims.
38:19
Speaker 7: And we also know that he was a PhD student
38:23
Speaker 7: studying criminology at a nearby university that was about a
38:26
Speaker 7: ten minute drive.
38:27
Speaker 1: Away to doctor Bethany.
38:29
Speaker 3: What about the fact that was just brought out doctor
38:31
Speaker 3: Bethany that neither Bundy nor Coburger had sex right these victims,
38:42
Speaker 3: and I'm not talking about all the victims, I'm talking
38:44
Speaker 3: about the coy Omega victims and the Idaho victims.
38:48
Speaker 12: I think that Coberger and Bundy were so perverse, so
38:53
Speaker 12: depraved that normal penetration asking a girl out, wowing them
38:59
Speaker 12: to them to dinner, a courting them, maybe eventually marrying
39:04
Speaker 12: or having sex, these normal interactions between adults. They were
39:11
Speaker 12: too far gone. They were too far down the depravity scale.
39:15
Speaker 12: So the fact that that they didn't penetrate doesn't mean
39:19
Speaker 12: that it wasn't sexual in nature. It could be as
39:23
Speaker 12: Joe Scott Morgan pointed out, as they were as a
39:25
Speaker 12: Coburger perhaps hanging out in the closet watching these students
39:30
Speaker 12: masturbating to thoughts of them, and not just thoughts of
39:35
Speaker 12: caressing them, having sex with them, penetrating them, but masturbating
39:39
Speaker 12: to the thoughts of plunging the knife into them, which,
39:42
Speaker 12: as another panelist pointed out, is kind of a pseudo sexual.
39:46
Speaker 10: Type of act.
39:47
Speaker 12: Plunging the knife like plunging the penis. And remember, Coburger,
39:51
Speaker 12: there was another victim where she took a suitcase out
39:54
Speaker 12: of her car, rummaged the items about out, took a
39:57
Speaker 12: pair of underwear, and then stuffed it into a couple
40:00
Speaker 12: hop holder, which I also thought was sort of a
40:02
Speaker 12: depraved pseudo sexual act. And you know, rage, anger, sadism,
40:08
Speaker 12: all kind of coalesce in the mind of a serial killer.
40:11
Speaker 12: So it could be that Coburger was stabbing the victims
40:15
Speaker 12: and then he was in a sexual frenzy stopped to masturbate.
40:19
Speaker 12: You know, I know, it's hard to imagine all of
40:21
Speaker 12: that happening at once, or masturbated on the way home,
40:25
Speaker 12: so we can't think of it as sex in the
40:28
Speaker 12: normal way.
40:29
Speaker 11: Many of these offenders have sexual erect insufficiency and can't
40:34
Speaker 11: do it anyway. That's part of their dilemma which makes them,
40:38
Speaker 11: for some of them, crazy.
40:39
Speaker 10: As they are.
40:40
Speaker 2: That is Del Carson speaking John Henry Brown, quick question,
40:45
Speaker 2: as you have watched the Coburger case unfold, what memories
40:50
Speaker 2: has it brought back to you regarding your time with
40:54
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy and how do you compare it.
40:56
Speaker 10: To Wed like to see Nancy And everybody should know
40:59
Speaker 10: that Ted actually gave me a release of the attorney
41:02
Speaker 10: client privilege, otherwise I would not be having this conversation. Okay,
41:07
Speaker 10: what tep is you remember? I'm sure you've seen the
41:11
Speaker 10: composite drawing done by witnesses at Caro Banka of the
41:14
Speaker 10: guy going up the stairs with a stick in his hands.
41:17
Speaker 10: And now anybody in the task Force in Washington or
41:21
Speaker 10: Idaho or Utah or Colorado would immediately say that's Ted Bundy.
41:27
Speaker 10: But we didn't have social media back then. We didn't
41:30
Speaker 10: have communication between police authorities the way we do now.
41:34
Speaker 10: Because any of the task Force members in this area
41:37
Speaker 10: or Colorado or Utah would say that's Ted Bundy, it
41:42
Speaker 10: would be solved immediately because that's strikingly similar composite of Ted,
41:50
Speaker 10: what I found is, you know, I think all I
41:52
Speaker 10: can say is that both incidents and the ones we
41:56
Speaker 10: know about what Ted are, the ones that are alleged
41:58
Speaker 10: against Skoburger, are rage, and being a sociopath does not
42:02
Speaker 10: being crazy. Sociopaths don't always have to be criminals. I
42:05
Speaker 10: mean sometimes there, let's say politicians. The rage is what
42:11
Speaker 10: The first thing I thought about when I heard about
42:13
Speaker 10: Cobger was the rage and how the rage was similar
42:18
Speaker 10: to Ted's and the reasons for that. I don't know
42:21
Speaker 10: that he was a sociopath or the question about it
42:25
Speaker 10: in my mind. I don't know about Coburger. I'd be
42:28
Speaker 10: speculating at this point, but the rage is really scary,
42:32
Speaker 10: and I don't know. I wonder. I wonder whether the
42:36
Speaker 10: authorities are investigating the possibility of other homicides with Coberger.
42:41
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, guys, we explore this and so much more
42:46
Speaker 3: in Parallels of Evil play now on Foxination. I want
42:51
Speaker 3: to thank all of my guests that joined me today,
42:54
Speaker 3: and I'll see you again lady and gentlemen in round two.
43:00
Speaker 1: Goodbye, said