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That Time Abe Lincoln Trolled His Way Into a Real-life Duel · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories the production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Let's hear it for our super producer Max the duellist
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Williams always dueling this guy.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Man, I can't even like I had to rock that
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: tall hat. He's already so tall. Did he really need
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: that flex It seems a little odd.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you gotta wonder if he wore platform shoes too.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Or was that incorporated into his height, like his his
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: head just the tall like a cone head kind of sitsues.
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  Speaker 1: And he had to wear the hat to look a
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: little more normal.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Were actually four to eleven?
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we were just talking about the du roll of hats.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they can sort of serve as helmet as as
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: cosmetic cover up for any unsightly lumps or bruises.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, no, no, no, we're all friends here. I'll
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: come clean with our Ridiculous Historians. I'm Ben, and I
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: have repeatedly hit my head on some heavy things while
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: moving into a new place, so I'm wearing a hat
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: until the contusions go away.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: We support you Ben in your convalescence.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Thank you, and you're you're no proud of.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk today in live and in person
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: in our brand new super Fancy podcast studio. We're going
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: to talk about one of our favorite presidents, Abe Lincoln,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: who looks weird, clean shaven.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, very It's like his face is like
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: a California raisin. It's very weird. You've got a very
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: small chin. Yeah. That's the thing about people with beers.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: They often don't have strong chins. I for one, do
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: not have a strong chin.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I've never seen it.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Well, you never will.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I probably never will.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: That's why the beard adds a little bit of length
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: that gives an extension to my face. Without it, it
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: would look like a shrunken head.
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  Speaker 1: I've got a I've got a pretty I got a
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  Speaker 1: chin that kind of insists upon itself, a prognatic jaw.
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  Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you, I have immense respect for
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: you with your beard game, because I haven't had a
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  Speaker 1: beard this big or this long since I lived in
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Central America, and it's just driving me crazy. I gotta
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: find my racers, my Manscape razors.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: Ah.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, of course, it brought to you not by Manscape,
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  Speaker 2: but they make good products, not meant to be used
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: on the face, though they make that really clear in
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: their ad copy. It's for some other part of your
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  Speaker 2: body that eludes me.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I'm a bit of a maverick, yess. I've always
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: said that, so so is Abe Lincoln. There we go,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: segue Abe Lincoln. Is I believe correct me on this
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  Speaker 1: the tallest or one of the tallest presidents in American
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  Speaker 1: history so far.
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  Speaker 2: I believe our boy lb j and Old Jumbo himself
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  Speaker 2: known for having large parts, was tied with Lincoln at
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  Speaker 2: six ' four. And if I'm not mistaken, correct me
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, Max, one of the more recent presidential
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  Speaker 2: figures is also up there.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: The forty fourth president is six four himself.
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  Speaker 2: Oh wow, So we are maxed out at six four
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  Speaker 2: for presidential height.
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  Speaker 1: Any anything taller is just too freakish for America. That's
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: why there.
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  Speaker 3: Until we elects president Shaquille O'Neill seven one, I'm looking
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  Speaker 3: forward to that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, be careful, be careful, Max. We've said, we've had
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: to say this in interviews before. Shaquille O'Neill runs.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: At land Well, he owns one particular Papa John's restaurant,
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: and it says on the outside, Shaquille O'Neill's Papa john he.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Owns that Krispy Kreme that burned down and is getting
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: rebuilt on Ponts too.
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  Speaker 2: Got it? And maybe I'm making up the Papa John statement.
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  Speaker 2: I almost positive that it says on the outside of it,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Shaquille O'Neals.
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  Speaker 3: But he does ads for Papa Johnson, and in his
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  Speaker 3: ads he's always like, yeah, no, I'm an owner and stuff.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, okay, okay, I didn't make it up.
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  Speaker 1: Good to know. Let's do the sound cute.
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  Speaker 3: That seeking in the phone and peaceful in knowledge.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: It's just for you right now. The fact perfect, all right,
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  Speaker 1: Abe Lincoln tall guy also happened to be president. You've
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  Speaker 1: heard of him in previous Ridiculous History episodes. We do
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: know this bit of a tangent, but we do know
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: there are studies proving interesting things about the physical appearance
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: of a president. Right, You're not going to be president
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: if you have facial hair. Currently in the US, it's
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: really tough taller people. Taller candidates tend to do better
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: in polls.
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  Speaker 2: That's so interesting. My kid actually went through a period
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: where she was very suspicious of tall people. You know,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: I think it was during the pandemic, and maybe a
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: tall person brandishing a mask does have a bit of
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: a sinister quality, especially if you're on the shorter side
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: of stature. But I think she's gotten over that. But yeah,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: another thing that comes with being a tall president is
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  Speaker 2: you's got pretty sweet reach.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, You've got to reach, and if
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: your footwork is good, you can be a real monster
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: in the boxing ring or wrestling. We talked about doing that,
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  Speaker 1: or as today's tale shows us, in a duel in
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: eighteen forty two Story of the Jedi, I won't tell you,
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  Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln used his height to save himself from a
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  Speaker 1: potentially fatal scrap with a guy named James Shields, a real.
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  Speaker 2: Pill by the name of James Shields. How does reach
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  Speaker 2: and height benefit you in a duel, you might ask, Well,
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  Speaker 2: we'll get to that. So in the late eighteen thirties,
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  Speaker 2: Abraham Lincoln, who with a time, was a member of
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  Speaker 2: the Whig Party, and Shields, missis of our story today,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: who was a Democrat. Both of these fellows were members
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  Speaker 2: of the Illinois State legislature, so this is pre presidential.
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  Speaker 1: Lincoln, and they had the job they had the job
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  Speaker 1: of resolving inter party differences. They were supposed to be
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  Speaker 1: fixers across the political divide, and they were tasked with
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  Speaker 1: ensuring state government soldiered onward. But their relationship, which had
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  Speaker 1: always been sort of a rivalry at best, got really sour.
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  Speaker 1: After Shields had a big win in his career, he
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  Speaker 1: was named the state auditor. O.
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  Speaker 2: Nobody likes that guy.
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  Speaker 1: No, nobody like. The word audit itself means that if
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  Speaker 1: audit is attached to your job, people are going to
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  Speaker 1: be weird about you.
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  Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah. In eighteen forty two, Illinois as a state
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  Speaker 2: ran out of money and figured that it would be
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  Speaker 2: really helpful for this situation if they no longer accepted
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  Speaker 2: their own printed money as a form of legal tender.
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  Speaker 1: Great.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were in a real good position here. No,
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  Speaker 2: not so much. Folks would only be able to pay
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  Speaker 2: their taxes with silver and golds, which is what Jesus
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  Speaker 2: is better than right now, it's just such, it's a him. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I'd rather have Jesus than silver.
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  Speaker 1: And right right. And most people, it turns out, in
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  Speaker 1: Illinois at this time, did not have a secret hoarde
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  Speaker 1: of silver and gold. Nope, they were used to trusting
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  Speaker 1: the paper money that have been issued, because you know,
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  Speaker 1: you're supposed to be able to trust official currency. This
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  Speaker 1: made the money worthless. There is a nightmarish time. Our
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  Speaker 1: buddy Shields as state auditor, and he says, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to side with the Democratic Party on this one, with
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  Speaker 1: my personal political party. We're rejecting all the currency. We're
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  Speaker 1: shutting down the state bank. This is not good.
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  Speaker 2: Does not sound like a party I would want to attend.
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  Speaker 2: So the State Bank of Illinois shut down their legal tender,
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  Speaker 2: which had been you know, accepted for all debts public
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  Speaker 2: and private to that point no longer of value. So
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  Speaker 2: the folks you know, who were the members of the
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  Speaker 2: Whig Party did not care for this, and Shields really
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  Speaker 2: became a target of their ridicule. Right. Lincoln, who was
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  Speaker 2: only thirty three years young at the time, and he
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  Speaker 2: was a Whig, as we said, and a state legislature,
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  Speaker 2: was really against this whole plan. He thought it was
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  Speaker 2: a bad move, as did the people it would seem.
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  Speaker 1: So, you know, there you go, and so he wrote
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  Speaker 1: some disstracks. This literally what happened. He did. He Lincoln
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  Speaker 1: was friends with a guy named Simeon Francis the editor
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  Speaker 1: of the Sangamo Journal or Sangamo Journal, and his buddy
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  Speaker 1: Francis said, look, I'm going to let you publish letters
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  Speaker 1: in this paper of note under a false name. So
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  Speaker 1: on August twenty seventh, eighteen forty two, an attack letter
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  Speaker 1: against Shields is printed in the paper by someone calling
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  Speaker 1: themselves Rebecca.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, real cute. Already you know, considered a master or
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  Speaker 2: at her at this point. The guy probably had a
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  Speaker 2: bit of a recognizable style, I would argue, Right, So,
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  Speaker 2: while you know, anonymous for all intents and purposes, probably
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  Speaker 2: not entirely anonymous to those in the know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm sure that there were phrases in that
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  Speaker 1: letter that came verbatim from trash he had already talked
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  Speaker 1: in the halls of government.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, he got like a rehearsed freestyle.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, like on Sway in the morning.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: And so the grift is this, The letter is from
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  Speaker 1: the perspective of a farm wife somewhere in rural Illinois,
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  Speaker 1: and she's saying, our neighbor can't pay his taxes because
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  Speaker 1: you expect everyone to have gold and silver, and farmer
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  Speaker 1: in question, a neighbor, right, whose name is Jeff also
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  Speaker 1: probably made up attacks the policies of the Democratic Party
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  Speaker 1: and then lays into Shields individually. Lincoln, who is writing
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  Speaker 1: as the farm wife Rebecca, calls Shields a fool and
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  Speaker 1: a liar and doesn't stop there.
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  Speaker 2: These fighting words. Yeah, I mean seriously, he really gets
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  Speaker 2: quite personal, just you know, like insulting the guy's intelligence,
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  Speaker 2: his actual physical appearance. There's a quote his very features
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  Speaker 2: in the ecstatic agony of his soul, spoke audibly and distinctly.
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  Speaker 2: Dear girls, it is distressing, but I cannot marry you
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  Speaker 2: all too well. I know how much you suffer. But
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  Speaker 2: do do remember it is not my fault that I
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  Speaker 2: am so handsome and so interesting.
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  Speaker 1: What yeah, he's say? This guy is so stuck up
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  Speaker 1: he thinks he's God's gift to women. It goes off
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  Speaker 1: the rails as an attack. And also we have to
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: mention that lincoln future wife Mary Todd, plays a role
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  Speaker 1: in this. When we think of Mary Todd, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we probably think of the older version of her as
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  Speaker 1: the first lady in this time. In eighteen forty two,
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  Speaker 1: Lincoln is in his early thirties and Mary is only
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  Speaker 1: twenty three years old. She is kind of an influencer
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  Speaker 1: of her time, you know what I mean.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, she definitely carried some weight inas much as a
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  Speaker 2: woman could in politics in those days. Good points, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I mean to your point. If she was around today,
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  Speaker 2: she would be an absolute force to be reckoned with,
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  Speaker 2: you know, in legit politics. But in this day she
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  Speaker 2: really had limited ways in which she could influence the
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: course of you know, political history. And being an incredibly intelligent,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: clever person, she leveraged the avenue to power that she
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  Speaker 2: did have. She and a friend decided to follow Abe
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  Speaker 2: Lincoln's precedent, and they double down on the joke. They
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: kept trying to publish stuff with these fake names who
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: go by Rebecca or aunt Becca. This is not to
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  Speaker 2: be confused with some kind of aspersion on my actual aunts.
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  Speaker 2: My aunt Becky, You're awesome. She's I think she's still
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: somewhere in Edinburgh. I can't remember, wasn't there. Aunt Becky
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  Speaker 2: also a character in Full House.
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  Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think that's right. Full House
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  Speaker 1: was always kind of confusing to.
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  Speaker 2: Me, very confusing. Why do they all live together in
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: that I don't know, really affluent San Francisco apartment?
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  Speaker 1: Right?
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: What did he do for a living. Was he like
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: the ad executive or something. It wasn't really clear to me.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: But at the time I also didn't understand things like rent.
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  Speaker 1: So that was a halcyon era of weird sitcom situations.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: You know, the kind of thing where the sitcom theme
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: song had to explain the entire setup Liken the Nanny soundtrack.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, or mister Belvidere, any number of sitcoms that had,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: you know, the plot of the show laid out, because
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: you know, audiences is were smart back then. I reckon.
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  Speaker 1: I think maybe the setups were just even more complicated.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, so this is this is weird. So
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  Speaker 1: they didn't stop with just one letter Mary and her friend.
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  Speaker 1: They write more and more letters, and they in these
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  Speaker 1: letters under these pseudonyms, they call James Shield's stuff like
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: a quote ballroom dandy floating about on the earth without
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: hef door substance, just like a lot of cat fur
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  Speaker 1: where cats have been fighting.
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  Speaker 2: Man, this Rebecca's spitting hot fire over and like it
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  Speaker 2: seems like her her vocabulary shifting radically depending on which
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: one of these letters you're looking at.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a little suspicions it needs some uniformity of character.
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  Speaker 1: You know, where's our theme here? And then they said,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: you know, if he has a problem with being agitated
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  Speaker 1: about the letters we're writing, quote, let him only come here.
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  Speaker 1: He can squeeze my hand. If that's not personal satisfaction,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I can only say he is the first man that
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: was not satisfied with squeezing my hand.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. Some of these get like more and
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: more performatively colloquial to like he's an eight and you know,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: fust and stuff. It's a little funny, And obviously I
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  Speaker 2: don't think it was their intention to. I think it
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  Speaker 2: was meant to be somewhat clear this was not the
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: same person. Yeah, it was more of a what's the
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: word it represented something.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Twitter jokes. It's like they're they're meming him,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: they're meme shaming him. And you can tell that there's
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: a nod in the link and there's a bit of
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: like an attaboy to it, because one letter even fantasizes
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  Speaker 1: about a fake marriage between ant Rebecca and Shields.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Some fictions some fan fit going on.
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  Speaker 1: So yes, slash fake and Shields doesn't think any of
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: this is funny. Uh, he goes to the newspaper editor
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and it's like, tell me who these people are.
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  Speaker 2: So I may have given him a little more credit
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  Speaker 2: that he deserved. He wasn't able to just suss it
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: out on his own based on context clues. You know,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: he may have suspected, you know, since Lincoln again was
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: this like great orator and you know, also a nemesis
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  Speaker 2: of him, he may have had his suspicions. But he
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  Speaker 2: did demand the satisfaction from the publisher of the newspaper
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  Speaker 2: or the editor rather, and he said, give me the names,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: name names, you know, which is not something that a
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  Speaker 2: newspaper editor would take lightly.
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  Speaker 1: You know. Oh, you're supposed to be able to protect sources, right,
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  Speaker 1: but Francis samm Francis obliges shields and says, Okay, I'm
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: about to blow your mind.
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  Speaker 2: Bro.
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  Speaker 1: There is no Rebecca. It's like everybody. Everybody thinks you're
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: sticking the wood is the problem?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you are not loved, sir.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: So he gets this information and he says, I'll teach
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: them by demanding a retraction.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Isn't that funny though that he obviously hones in on
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Lincoln the man. You know, he's not interested necessarily in
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: Mary Todd or her buddy or whoever else got in
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: on this, this slanderous game. He gets Lincoln, he's already
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: you know, his kind of public nemesis, and like you said,
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  Speaker 2: demands a retraction.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got the quote to he. Okay, so how
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  Speaker 1: this is so middle school to me?
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: He writes an angry note to Lincoln. He doesn't give
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the note to Lincoln. He gives it to someone else
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: to carry the note to him. And the note says,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I have become the object of slander, vituperation, and personal abuse.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Only a full retraction me prevent consequences which no one
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: will regret more than myself.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Sounds like a threat.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Right right, Hey, bro, don't make me hit you.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: I will say. Though, kind of a dick move on
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Lincoln's part, I mean, seems a little unprofessional, wouldn't you say,
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  Speaker 2: to publish this distract under an assumed name, like like
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: own your stuff, man, you know what I mean? Like
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: come at him like you know you with your true name.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: He obviously found out anyway, and you know Lincoln, but
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: he did stand his remarks even though he made them
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: under false pretenses.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Which is a little sketch.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: All right, guys, let me jump in here because I
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: want to pose a question to y'all.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: For some reason, this feels similar to me when we
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: did the episode about Ben Franklin when he accused the
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: you know, other his like competing guy with the Almanac
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: of being dead and stuff like that. Any think is
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: petty or this or that. That's that's so, it's not
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: that level of petty.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying what he was saying was incorrect
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: or that he was picking a fight out of pettiness.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: What he was saying I think was valid. And and
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: this other guy was supporting a cause that was not
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: good for the common people, no question. Nobody, like you said, Ben,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: nobody had stores. Only the super wealthier people of his
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: echelon of society would have had stores of silver and
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: golds or dragons. Yeah, the rest of them only had
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Jesus and this useless script right right, because now the
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: coupon system of currency doesn't work, and that is that
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: spell's absolute financial ruin for so many people. Lincoln says,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: like you said, Nolie says, I'm not taking back a
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: word that I said. Here's your letter pal and tell
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: you what, buddy, why don't you rewrite it in a
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: more gentlemanly fashion. It's basically like saying, take this letter
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: and shove.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: It, you know, right, And so shields response by saying,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: let's go catch me outside.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're gonna gonna throw some hands or or
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: you know, pistols or whatever else it might be. Have
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: you seen the new John Wick movie. Yes, at the end,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: it's really awesome set piece or there's a duel. I
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: won't say who's involved, but they get to choose you know,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: blades or or freaking you know, pistols or whatever, and
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: they do it with this very elaborate system, like all
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: the stuff with the high table. Never quite sure how
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: these little games visuals a lot of your world building,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: awesome movies, awesome, really unequivocally great. They end up doing pistols,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: but blades was definitely on the literal table. With these
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: like tarot card situations, this is similar where they are
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: going to have to choose what weapons they are going
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: to be using.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, I gotta jump back in because the
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: first time I experienced John Wick was John Wick two.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: I knew nothing about the show okay, Well about the movie,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: I least right right, I knew nothing, but it was
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: there's a couple of my buddies and we'll go see
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: John Wick two three D North Cap Mall, which is
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: like you know the mall for it's basically a dead
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: ball with just movie theater. Yeah, right, but it's like
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: six fifty four to three D things. And I was
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: just like, okay, what is this movie? And I kind
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: of looked up before and I'm like okay, and I
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: said it blown away.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: That amazing because you're so great. Timn's point though, you
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: don't they don't flesh out the world because there's not
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: much to flesh out. You don't really need to know
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: some detailed backstory. I think they kill his dog and
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: that's that's what sets him off.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: The cool thing is like it's like stunt guys who
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: made the movie. Yes, it's all about the performative art
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: of like you know, fight scenes and.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Stuff like that. I also like the fact that they
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: depend on shot value and gore zero percent. Right, it's
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: all about the acrobatics and the set pieces of it all,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: and they just double down each movie. I think they're
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: they're classic American films.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: There really are.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: They are beautiful. They're beautiful. They can be enjoyed in
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: any language, which I think is an advantage of slimming
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: down on the world building. And it's still very it's
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: still very interesting universe. But I gotta tell you one
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: of my one of my favorite parts of it watching
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: through John Wick four, huge fan of the whole franchise,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: was I started thinking, Hey, these are supposed to be
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: like the world's best assassins. I only see them trying
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: to kill each other. When do they take jobs as assassins?
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: I think we're witnessing in the course of the film,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: like a crisis in their community in the regular week,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, unclear what we'll see in john Wick
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: five when things get back to normal. But so Lincoln,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: what you have to accept? I guess right, Them's the
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: rules you have to you know, it's a gentlemanly agreement.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: You can't be punk, No, you can't. So they catch
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: me outside moment is going to happen in Missouri? Why Missouri?
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: For these people beefed up in Illinois. It's because in Missouri,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: dueling is still totally legal.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Isn't that funny? It's sort of like people that like
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: have to cross day lines to like get some recreational weed,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: you know, right, but in these days, like I gotta
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: go over here so I can like kill my enemy.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which what I guess is what Missouri was
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: known for at the time.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Backstory, Hamilton Burr had to go to New Jersey to duel.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Everything is Jersey. It's a very permissive state. But but
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: you know, back to the john Wick of it all,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: there's there is decorum, there are rules surrounding these things.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: This is a nom there are rules, and Lincoln being
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: the person who has been challenged, you know, convention dictates
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: that he is allowed to choose weapons now is now
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: again back to the john Wick of it all, these
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: cards that they have to choose from, there's a finite,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: you know, array of weapons to shoot from. Like is
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: it a similar situation here? Is it literally just pistols
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: or swords or were like evening stars or morning stars
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: part of the deal boomerangs perhaps?
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, animals?
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: I choose this type and could you choose a champion
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: like you could in the days of yr.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems that they had some particular understandings of this.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: There were things that were considered while you could technically
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: choose any weapon. There were things that were considered like
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: the goats, you know, pistols, blades, et cetera. So Lincoln
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: starts stacking the deck immediately, this weird pre internet pranking
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: has gone off the rails, and so he says, all right,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: you want to fight me, little buddy. We're using broad swords,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: the largest ones you can find, cavalry broad swords.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: This would be those kind of curved scimitar type guys, right.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Calvary broad swords are the ones that have the handle,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: oh gosh, the hilts, yeah, the one that like the
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: protector for your fingies. Yeah, And they're pretty heavy.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: They're substantial, and so they're not curved, though maybe they
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: curve ever so slightly at the end. Well, no, it
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: looks like there's an there's something called an infantry hangar
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: that is a little bit more of a saber type thing.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: But I don't know. There's all different makes of these things,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: but in general, the cavalry broad sword not incredibly broad,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: relatively tapered, you know, relatively thin blade, but that big
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: old chunky handle with the with the protector on it.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: And it's it's wider than a rapier that's right.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Because a rapier is more like a fencing sword. Yeah,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: really quainty and yeah, but by.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: This point in time, I feel like stores have gone
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: a lot less meaty, Like I think, like when the
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: real meaty swords are the fourteen hundreds, By eighteen hundreds,
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: they're all slender and oh yeah.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Look often they were Often they were not functional. They
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: were or ornamental.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: And if they were functional, they were a weapon of
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: last resort, you know what I mean. If you couldn't
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: get him from a distance with your musket that took
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: forty five minutes to load and shoot, you'd pull that
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: thing out, you know, when you were in close quarters
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: and maybe out of AMMO.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: The day of the sword had been demoted to bayonet, exactly,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: stick it on the gun just in case, right, they
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: get too close. Lincoln talks talks about why he why
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: he chooses the swords. He says, I didn't want the
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: damned fellow to kill me, which I think you would
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: have done if we had selected pistols. And I don't
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: want to kill him, but I feel like if it
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: comes down to blades, I can at least disarm him,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and then give him a chance to give
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: it up.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Back to that reach we're talking about it. He knows
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: what his strengths are, and with pistols he would not
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: have any advantage.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: I'm sure his arm would be a little longer.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: I guess technically the bullet might arrive a little bit
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: quicker coming.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: From his gun.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, we were talking milliseconds here at that point.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Using swords was a real boon, you know, for him
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: in a situation.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he had to reach. He had the height. Shields
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: was five feet nine inches tall to Lincoln six feet four. Now,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I want to give a shout out to all our
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: fellow listeners who are not themselves six ' four. You
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: can still win a fight. You can still win a fight,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: depending on how you approach it, if you are shorter
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: than your opponent. But of course, if you know how
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: to fight. The number one thing you always have to
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: remember is that if you get into a physical altercation,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: you have on some level already failed.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: It's true because you know it's all about diplomacy. You
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: use your words, folks, use your words.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Use your words. So, okay, before the duel begins, this
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: is why we all love this story. Okay, Lincoln is
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: thinking how do I get this hot headed bantam creature
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: to calm down? How do I get him to back down?
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And what does he do?
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Nol Well, it makes me think of that scene in
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: one of the Indiana Jones movies where Doctor Jones is
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: menaced by a scimitar wielding henchman of some sort who
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: does a big old show, you know, swinging it around,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: doing all the thing, and then, of course Doctor Jones
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: just shoots him in the face, which I always found
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: to be a bit of an unsportsmanly move.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I also heard that move was improvised. Oh really, that's
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: what I heard, I think if I'm remembering that correctly.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: No improvised or not. It's you know, it's a lot
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: like the Han shot. First thing. He's sort of a
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: bit of a rascal if he's just like this guy
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: hasn't even come at him yet, he's just sort of
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: showing off and then he just shoots him in the face.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Not not very fair. But this is not the case
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: because these guys are both you know, never bring a
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: scimitar to a gunfight, you know, I guess that's the thing.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: These guys are both wielding these swords. Lincoln shows off
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: his reach more than his swordsman.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah. So Lincoln says, watch this man
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: calmed dout, and he cuts down a tree branch above
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Shields his head, showing just how much of a height
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: disparity there is, and clearly establishing that things are not
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: going to go well for Shields if they do actually
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: beef up.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: So this point, Shields recognizes that maybe he's been played
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: a little bit. I'm sure he wasn't happy him seeming
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: like a bit of a thin skinned fellow. But I'll
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: tell you what he didn't know, and they were able
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: to discuss in this moment, was that the letter that
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Lincoln wrote, I believe there are two under well, the
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Jeff and Rebecca letter right, not nearly as personal and
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: aggressively nasty as the ones that Mary Todd and her
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Palell wrote when they took the joke too far. Took
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: it too far, and he didn't know that. And so
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I think this was an opportunity to explain this is
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: so this.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: To me, this moment is either very tense or it's
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: weirdly off putting, it awkward, like it's a peep show
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: moment where you learn the guy could have killed you
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: in the duel instead, but instead he spared your life,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: and he's not the person you should be mad at.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that person was a woman, he adds.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so so they are not going to be
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: super good friends right after this, but they but they
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: understand each other. And if you fast forward twenty years later,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: the Civil War brings these frenemies back together.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Lincoln makes him brigadier general for the Union Army,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: and that was you know, well he made him, he
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: was appointed such and that of course had to be approved,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: you know, for a high position like that, by Lincoln himself. So,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: you know, Lincoln in every way, he comes off as
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: the bigger man here.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: He's literally he's literally the bigger man.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: And he also just like he he didn't have any beef.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: You know, he definitely tossed a little mud on this
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: guy's you know, pantaloons, but he wasn't trying to push
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: it farther. And and honestly, at the end of the day,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: if that had been the only thing that had come out,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: the guy would never have even called for the duel.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: No and all. And Lincoln just didn't want to get shot,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: which is a totally reasonable faith, thank god. Though that the.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Tradition of dueling gave him that that opportunity to pick
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: the weapons, and that he was crafty enough to realize
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: that his advantage would be much better served with the
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: with the swords, with the guns.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: And we have to, of course, we have to point
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: out that his fear of firearms turned out to be
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: very well fount.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Oh forgot about that. Geez, poor Mary Todd.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and okay, so he I mean poor Lincoln.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: But like she was like there.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: And so there's something that happens that totally changes the
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Lincoln Shields beef Shields. When he is a brigadier general,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: like you said, he's fighting in the Shenandoah Valley in
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: March of eighteen sixty two, he is the only guy
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: to defeat Stonewall Jackson at a place called the Battle
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: of Curtainstown. And during that battle, Shields is very grievously injured.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Lincoln says, nominate this guy to major general. And someone
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: maybe in the room said, do you mean that guy
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I tried to kill you in Missouri? And he's like, yeah, look,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: we got a lot of stuff going on.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: It's fine, you get into situations. Yeah, bigger man unfortunately
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: is not in the power of the president alone, you know,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: to bestow this this promotion, you know, onto an individual.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: And Shields doesn't get the nomination. It's blocked by the
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: then Republican controlled Senate. Yeah, the symbolic it did the
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: job right symbolically, it squashed the beef. And apparently this
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: haunted Lincoln for the rest of his life. He was
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: embarrassed about it, and he asked Mary Todd, who you know,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: was his friend then later became his wife. He asked
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: her never to speak about it to him or to anyone.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: And there's an anecdotal story that says, years and years later,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: an army officer was talking to Lincoln while he's the
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: president and said something like, you know, you know, mister President,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: I me and the boys have heard a campfire story
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: about you, and did you used to get into duels?
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: What did Lincoln say, Because to the bone like a
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: cavalry broadsword, he says, I do not deny it, but
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: if you desire my friendship, you will not mention it again.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Awkward, awkward dinner. Thanks for making dinner awkward.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I mean he basically said the same thing to Mary Todd.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: You know, he was like, we don't talk about this,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: you know, and if you do, it's not going to
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: go well.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he really regretted it. He would go
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: on to describe it once as what was it the
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: meanest thing I ever did in my life.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: That's interesting because again he really does come off as
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: like the diplomat here. Maybe he's referring to feeling bad
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: about writing the anonymous talk.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's part of it, because the whole
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: situation could have been avoided. But you know how it is.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you gotta get your jokes in. Man.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: It's true. And also maybe at the time he thought
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: that that he genuinely believed that if it came from
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: the perspective of like the people, that it was gonna
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: do a better job of communicating the gravity of the
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: situation that it came from like a political opponent. So,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: you know, hindsight's twenty twenty and all that. It seemed
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: like a dumb move to both of us, I think
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: from the start, But I think Lincoln was well meaning
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: and veiling his true identity.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Let's you know what, Let's see if dueling is still
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: legal somewhere.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's probably one of those like weird off the
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: books things or there's some like gray area zone. See, yeah,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: you can just in this like part where these states intersect.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Apparently, according to grunge dot com, dueling is still legal
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: in a couple of states.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's referred to as mutual combats. It is nuts, yeah,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: says here Texas and Washington. Washington was a surprise for
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: me too, man. Yeah, they're so chill and peaceful and
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: stoned in Washington.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: And so okay. The Washington law says anyone who fights,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: or promotes, or is concerned in or connives at fighting
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: a duel is prosecutable by law. But if people are
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: not fighting in public, if they're not risking the lives
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: of other people, are damaging other property, then police have
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: no reason to intervene.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Gotta wonder if that's sort of like one of those
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: laws where like the local law clashes with roll law,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: because like, if you kill somebody in a duel and
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: it's legal to do so in Texas under a mutual combat,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: you know, statute of their penal code a federally, haven't
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: you still murdered somebody?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I would think so, you know.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: To jump back in here, in the case of Aaron
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: Burr and Alexander Hamilton. Uh, there was actually murder charges
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: brought to up. He wasn't really even found like innocent.
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: He it was just like a something went wrong with
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: the trial. But it's like, yeah, for the longest time,
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, you can duel, but if you kill
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: somebody in the duel, you're still liable to be charged
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: for murder.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: So it's weird. Well, I guess it also depends are
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: you just fighting or are you dueling to the death.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I think we're all assuming dual to the death right, correct, Yeah, Okay,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: should that be legal? Like, uh, should we step carefully
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: and text you guys next time we go back always?
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, lesson learned with a big thanks through Abe Lincoln. Uh,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: this one just flew by Noel, and I know we've
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: got to I know we've got to call it a day,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: but I'm having so much fun in this in person
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: recording situation. You know. Uh, it may not be great
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: for uh Max's burgeoning Meglemania, as he said, but uh,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: but that's that's just a bisco We're gonna have to take. Max.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: It's one that I'm willing to take.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Right So thanks Toorge super producer, Max Williams, Alex Williams,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: who composed this banging soundtrack. Noel Noel, who else? Who else? Oh?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: You know, you know, Chris frasciotis here in spirities, Jeff
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Coats out there in the in the great wide world,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland. Uh and and you Ben. You know, we've
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: never never been in a duel. I don't do't foresee
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: that happening.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Uh No, I don't think we'll be in a duel
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: to each other. So tune in. We've got some great
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: stuff on the way. We're very excited to travel through
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: more ridiculous events days of your and we can't wait
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: for you to be a part of it.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.