Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 125: Unclench, You Little Cuss

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Ep. 125: Unclench, You Little Cuss · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: his word. And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered what this podcast would be like if we posted it unedited? Because I gotta be honest with you. I've been sitting here with my sister for the last five minutes while she blows a hair off of her face. And I don't think you would have enjoyed it. It's a very fine hair.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I think it's from the dog, and it's more of a, like, fluff than a hair.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: And it's bothering me. I'm so glad that they got the breakdown of what sort of hair is on your face. Thank you.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: You could hear our vocal warm ups before we start, which are very professional. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And not a bunch of curse words.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: No. They're we would never. We would never. Sorry, mom. Is is piss a curse?
• 1:20
  I feel like no. I feel like we're okay with that one. That's fine.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No. We're fine with that one.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: It it really depends on what country you're in. What's a curse?
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: It's not mom's least favorite. That's true. Curse.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Mom has one she hates even more than that.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: One time I heard someone say, you little cuss. And that's my favorite thing. I can tell you.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: I'll even tell you who it was. It was my husband's grandmother, which makes it all the better. Yeah.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: She was like, you little cuss.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Wasn't she talking to a dog too? She's talking about her dog. Yeah. Yeah. That was really funny.
• 1:58
  I've never heard that one before. You little cuss. That's like how people will say, they think it's fine to say BS, but they won't actually say the curse word. But they think they think shortening it's fine. Or they'll shorten it to bull.
• 2:16
  Yeah.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Some that's a bunch of bull.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Just because you shortened it, doesn't mean God doesn't know.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And some people go so far as to say, like, you can't the hair is still on the face, guys. You can't do, like, replacements of those words. So, like, gosh darn it. Mhmm.
• 2:38
  Or
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh. I remember one when we were little because we were in, like, the super, super conservative circles. And you couldn't say jeez because that was similar to Jesus. And you couldn't say Jeez o Pete, because that was like saying Jesus and Peter. I I guess
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I guess you couldn't curse Peter either.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, cuss words were made up by Vikings back in the day.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Is that true? Or are
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: you just making crap up? No. In my British literature class, we did a segment on, like, where do cuss words come from in the English language? I And think some of them came from the Vikings. So not not anything Jesus would know about.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: What a great way to keep high school students engaged.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I was drawing pictures in the back and taping them up to the wall and thinking like, I wonder when she'll notice all these different pictures are on the wall. Keep in mind, they are right next next to my desk, and they randomly show up as soon as I leave. And she came up to me one time. She's like, is it okay if I laminate these? Oh, dear.
• 3:53
  I'm gonna keep them. They're so cool. Because I did them off of characters we were reading about. Oh. And I was just like, a Buddhist to go to the wall.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, the things we did as children.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: And also, they were not good drawings. Sure, they were.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: She laminated them. You can't laminate something that's bad. That was before I went to art school. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Before I sold my soul to the devil at a Christian art school.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Wow. I didn't know they did that there.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's it's a little known practice, but they do like that.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: I posted a TikTok today talking about all the different things that people have called me on the Internet this week, and and they were very similar to that. Yeah. One of them was witch. One of them was prostitute. That was fun.
• 4:36
  She actually said, you're going to be a prostitute, which was ominous.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: And news to you.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: And news to me. And probably my husband.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Please tell me you responded with, well, that's news
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: to me. I don't even remember. I think that one got flagged. So I don't know if I responded
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: to that. Reminds me of that song by oh my gosh. What is that band's name? I don't know. But there's a song called, You Don't Have to Be a Prostitute.
• 5:05
  No. No. No. No.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: It a wildly popular song. It's wildly popular. Well, today, we are headed back into regularly scheduled programming. Yes. You're welcome.
• 5:17
  And we're gonna talk about the book God Didn't Make Us to Hate Us by Reverend Lizzie and I forget her last name.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: By Reverend Lizzie McManus Dell. Dell. Dell? Dell? Dell.
• 5:31
  She is
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: someone that both of us kind of independently started following on social media without knowing the other was. And she's just so fun and happy. And she's like a joyful presence online that I like to follow. But she also has such amazing things to say.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. She's an Episcopalian priest. So she does talk a lot about how so many people on social media go after her, saying, you don't have the right to be in this position. Mhmm. And she gets a lot of hate on the internet because of her being a leadership in this Christian space.
• 6:10
  And I feel like you and I both really relate to that too, because we get a bunch of hate on the internet Mhmm.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Just for speaking out about Jesus' love. Literally for being a woman with opinions. Yeah. That's the thing that's really struck me, and I see it across all kinds of creators that are women in the religious space and the non religious space, is all you have to do to be hated on the Internet is be a woman with an opinion.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Or be a woman.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That too. Full stop. Yep. Just be a woman.
• 6:44
  We cannot do it right. We are stupid. We don't know what we're talking about. We don't have the authority to speak on whatever topic. It doesn't matter.
• 6:55
  We'll get called names. And it's it comes from men and women. And I think she speaks to some of that, not just in the way that she speaks about her presence online, but in the way this book is too because Christianity has taught us to hate ourselves. And if we hate ourselves, then we're gonna go out there and spread that to everybody else. Right?
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: She talks about in this book how hate starts with envy. So whether these people like it or not, there's something about your presence online, whether it's you speaking up or that you have the courage to get on the internet and make these on the internet. To make these videos and speak your opinion or educate yourself on different topics, that there's something about that that they're envious of.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Could it be that I'm stunning? Yes. Absolutely. We are.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: But there's something about that that people are envious of, and that makes them mad and unable to explain why.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean, part of that is that we often don't teach people how to properly handle their emotions, and especially on the internet where that comes out.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Having emotions is part of the human experience. Mhmm. You're allowed to have your emotions, but what you do with those emotions speaks to who you are as a person.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. Now, this book is a devotional. And I think we're probably gonna wind up doing this episode in two parts because this is so much to cover.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: It's an entire book, ladies and germs. They're it's separated into 40 devotionals. And I really encourage you to pick up this book and read it. And read it at your own pace because they're short, like, couple of pages. She talks about how 40 is, like, a biblical number of significance, and that's why she chose to do 40 different little devotionals.
• 8:59
  But each devotional is so well thought out, and so beautifully written. It's a great read.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: And I encourage you to listen to the audiobook of this because she reads it herself. Mhmm. And she just adds little intonations to her voice and little bits to her story that it's just very interesting.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: I love when an author does their own audiobook. Sometimes sometimes it doesn't go well. Don't get me wrong. But they know the story in a way that no one else is gonna know it, so she can add these little asides and just just let you feel it a little bit differently than a professional reader would.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: The little jokes that are written that you maybe wouldn't pick up on as you're reading, like her sense of sarcasm or whatever it is. But it's just very cool to hear it anyways. So let's dive into it.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Alright. I'm I'm ready. I've got my bathing suit on. I've never dived before, so I may die. Dived.
• 9:55
  Dived. Yeah.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Dove. Diven. Diven. We've never divined before. Here we go.
• 10:04
  Introduction. The introduction, she just kind of explains the premise of the book. God didn't make us to hate us. Mhmm. And how Christianity throughout time, whether you like it or not, has taught you to hate yourself.
• 10:19
  That you were born sinful. That God is so full of wrath and you are lucky that he even wants to be near you. Mhmm. But we have to switch our brain around and remember that God didn't make us to hate us. God made us out of joy and for joy.
• 10:33
  Mhmm. And he loves us so, so much that he knows the hairs on your head. And he bothered to make the world beautiful. He bothered to put stars in the sky, and wind, and nature, and things that bring about joy for us. That's what he made us for.
• 10:54
  Not just to send us into internal damnation Mhmm. Because he's so full of wrath. Right. So that's kind of what the premise of the book is. She talks about, oh, yeah.
• 11:06
  I like when she says, he wants to live with us to unclench from the chokehold that Christianity has on us that God does not have on you. Unclench. Get ready. We're diving in.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: I did hear that her and her publisher kind of debated on the title, whether to say God didn't make me to hate me, God didn't make you to hate you, or us to hate us. And they decided on us because they said Christianity is a communal situation. It's not a me. It's not a you. Everything we do should be an us.
• 11:45
  And so they wanted to bring everyone together in that tale. I love knowing that they took the time with with two literal words. Mhmm.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Because those words mean a lot.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: And especially in a world so divided between me versus you Mhmm. It's nice to hear us. Yeah. Part one is a little introduction to this section of chapters, and she talks about how God is our father. But that doesn't mean that male power is God.
• 12:15
  And how limiting it is to say that the God of the universe is boxed into these walls of our human male female power. Mhmm. Now, Jesus does teach us how to pray, and he says, our father, but he's talking about the relationship that he shares with God. God, the father, and then Jesus, and then the holy spirit. Well, we
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: talked about that when we read through the book Women and the Gender of God. We talked quite a bit about how there's
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: a
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: lot of biblical evidence to say the creator of the universe is not a sexualized being. He's not male or female. It's just that's our best way to say it. You know?
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. She talks about how God sometimes refers to himself as she in female terms and pronouns, or they. And that's important for, I think especially women, to hear that. Because so often growing up in the very conservative church, male power is from God. Right.
• 13:26
  And breaking that down and remembering that that's not always how it is, and that is very limiting. Mhmm. And makes you feel very small when you don't think that your God that you worship relates to you at all, even though you're supposed to be made in his image as well. Right. Right.
• 13:42
  So that's the introduction to part one.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Alright. Let's go. Part one. Chapter one. We're going we're going deep, guys.
• 13:51
  Chapter one
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: is titled Chaotic God. And she compares God to the wind and how in Genesis it talks about the creation of the universe and how God breathed life into the world. And how wind can be harnessed for a time, but it's very chaotic. And sometimes you can't harness it. Think tornadoes.
• 14:14
  Think hurricane.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: So kind of like you sometimes you can understand God, and sometimes you cannot.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And God's order doesn't always match our order of things. Mhmm. Order's nice, and we like nice, clean lines and nice, clean God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Right.
• 14:33
  But it's not as easy as all that. God's much more God Mhmm. Than we are. She says, you were created out of the wildness that is the she spirit. Oh, I'll get into that in a minute.
• 14:49
  You are made out of the dust that gathered in the wake of all of the chaos and all of the creating, all this land emerging and the ocean tide flowing out. You are made wild.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And where is where did she shed the word ruach? What?
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. In the original text, when it talks about the breath of God, the Hebrew word is ruach. Oh, I'm sure that was pronounced properly. Definitely by me. Yes.
• 15:21
  She pronounces it in the audiobook, and I'm pretty sure I did my best interpretation of that. But that word is traditionally female in Hebrew. So again, going back to God talking about himself as she as well. Right. So also thinking about how life, creating life Traditionally female.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Right. The breath of God.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: I love this idea. I remember the first time I experienced someone saying, God is creative. Because in our circles, and I'm sure in many of yours, God is boxed in. God has this attribute and this attribute and this attribute, and they're all very logical, and they're all very easy to understand and whatever. Right?
• 16:09
  And when someone said to me, God is very creative. God did things just because they were beautiful. That changed the way that I saw God. And so to hear, like, the word wild used for God, it does. It changes who God is.
• 16:26
  Because if God is not this buttoned up man in a suit, but is in fact creative and wild and unpredictable, that's something different.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Things don't just have to be practical. Mhmm. Things can be beautiful just for the sake of being beautiful, and they can be aesthetic. And that's a lot of things that people would sometimes consider frivolous.
• 16:50
  God's not frivolous. Right? God is God. So she talks about creating the platypus and the flamingo Yeah. And the silly things.
• 17:00
  And God might have a sense of humor.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And be a little vindictive because he also created mosquitoes.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Really rude. And flies and bees. And then
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: flies and bees. We were attacked by bees today. Several times.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Not really attacked, just more so surrounded.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Surrounded. But we were also we kind of were attacked by them yesterday at the farmer's market.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Beesman. On to chapter two. On to chapter two. The title of this one is We Were Born Homesick.
• 17:29
  So she starts out with first John four, seven and twelve. Would you like to read it? Sure. So
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: it says, dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. No one has ever seen God. But if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. That's the NIV.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: The NIV. So this chapter, she opens up talking about the birth of her daughter. And someone told her, If all goes well, she will be born screaming. Mhmm. And how scary it was when she was born via cesarean section, and she was all purple, and she wasn't screaming.
• 18:18
  And finally, she did scream, but how she was homesick. She came into a world where she wasn't comfortable anymore and she wasn't surrounded by her mom. And she compares that to us being homesick for heaven. Mhmm. And and how traditionally in versions of Christianity that you and I know, we're talking, we're told that we're born sinners.
• 18:48
  Mhmm. But maybe it's not so much that we're born sinners, we're born homesick. And how much the female process of birthing and how babies are born is considered dirty and a little taboo and And that's why it's so associated with sinfulness Mhmm. And Eve's punishment Right. That makes people uncomfortable with that.
• 19:19
  I think that's really beautiful to sit back and say,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: maybe we're not automatically sinning. Maybe we just got thrust into a world that God didn't create us for. Because God didn't create us for a sinful world, and we miss our father. We miss the space that this world could have been. You know?
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: That's lovely. It's lovely. She says, we can trust that our wild god is where we came from and to whom we will return. Where the wanting does not haunt, but is sated. My gosh.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Bree's been Bree's on her period, okay?
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: So, what's Alyssa? Yeah, but I'm not
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: the one weeping. I'm always emotional.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: She talks about how she will never be able to feed her daughter to where she is so full in the same way that God will be able to fill us
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: to where
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: we are full.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Chapter three.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Chapter three is called Fool's Gold. This talks about the golden rule. You'll love your love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. And then to love your neighbor as yourself. Mhmm.
• 20:49
  And this one I really like because she talks about the importance of that you need all three. Mhmm. And there's no limit to the amount of love that you can give and the amount of love that you can receive. Because some people in the Christian world think that you have to love God absolutely first. And you have to give God the most of your love.
• 21:12
  So if you're giving your spouse or your family or your neighbors more love, then you don't love God enough. And he's all concerned about percentages. So you need to give God 51% of your love, and everybody else can share the other 49%. But she said, our God is not limited to percentages. She talks about how dismissive it is to tell someone, especially a woman, that they didn't know love until they gave birth.
• 21:40
  Mhmm. Or they didn't know love until they got married. Mhmm. Because you're limiting different people's versions of love. Right.
• 21:47
  And there's so much love to be had in the world. And she's like, true, I didn't know this version of love until I had my daughter. But I definitely did experience love from my parents and from my coworkers. And I can be fulfilled in lots of different ways. But how you can't love your neighbor without first loving yourself.
• 22:08
  Because it says that you have to love them as yourself. Right. And you want to love your neighbor well. And you also have to love God with all your mind and with all your soul and with all your understanding. And you have to have all three going on at once.
• 22:23
  And if you're concerned, so concerned about making sure that God has that biggest slice of the pie Mhmm. You're doing it wrong.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: That actually really reminds me of some advice that my husband and I got before we got married that I just never could understand. So someone told us that loving your partner should be like a triangle. So you're on one side of the base of the triangle. Your partner's on the other side of the base of the triangle, and God is at the top of the triangle. And you can either go towards God together, and then you can love each other more and love God more.
• 23:03
  Or you can just love each other and forget about God entirely. And it was like, those were the only two options. I can only love you as much as I can get to God. I can only love you as much as I love God. And it's such a weird comparison because then I'm sitting there saying, oh, no.
• 23:20
  Do I love you more than I love God today? Well, I can't do that. That's sinful.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: And I can't put you in competition with God.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Right. And I actually saw I can't remember what it was, but I was watching a documentary one time, and they were talking about that. About how a girl broke up with her boyfriend because she was like, I'm putting him in the place of God. I love him more than I love God. And and that's what that comparison does.
• 23:46
  It says, I can only love you this much because I have to love God this much. But what if we didn't put all of these hurdles in our way that God never put there?
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: These limitations. And I think when you love your people around you well, you are loving God, too. Yes. You're being the hands and feet of Jesus on Earth. Loving me loving my sister doesn't mean that I don't love God Mhmm.
• 24:16
  At the same time. And God would want me to love my sister. She also talks about the times when it feels really difficult to be loving God in traumatic situations, in horrible, horrible things that happen on earth. What do we do then? Do we say, oh, we love God, but do we love God?
• 24:37
  She said the trick is to then turn and love others really well. Surround the people who are hurting with love Mhmm. As much as you can. And that's also loving God.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, I think the love of God, as much as we want to sit here and be like, oh, yes, I'm experiencing the love of God, it's still kind of out there. Right? It's still a little mystical. It's still not something tangible.
• 25:06
  But what the verse at the beginning of, I think, chapter two said is we experience the love of God through people. We share the love of God with other people. So as well as you love someone might be how they understand the love of God. Mhmm.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: She closes this little devotional with, for God's love for us is greater than the love parents have for their children and greater than the love friends have for each other and greater than the love we share even here because God is love and so much more. God is love. So when I'm loving anybody, that's God Shining through us. As we are little lights, and we can't be hidden by a bushel. No bushels, folks.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Chapter four. We are so not getting through 20 chapters of this.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Chapter four, I really like this chapter. There's not a ton to say, but it says God is more like music. So it's trying to understand the triune God, and what does that mean? God the Father, and God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Are they in competition with each other?
• 26:18
  Is one more powerful than the other? Saint Augustine, do you remember when we were talking about Augustine of Hippo? I do. He comes back again, and he's credited for saying singing is prayer twice. So the importance of singing and how that relates to worship, it's confusing.
• 26:39
  But she talks about how when she started out as a priest, she would go to these nursing homes. And she's like, I don't have the best voice, but I do have a voice. And they would ask me to sing when I was there. And she's like, it would be amazing because you'd see these people who couldn't even remember their own names. They were very incapacitated.
• 27:01
  So she would go to, like, the first song that she would automatically remember, which was Amazing Grace. And she's like, it would be amazing. These people would remember these words right away. And there's something about music and how the body just remembers it. And sometimes a song is very similar to a prayer.
• 27:22
  And she has a quote here. Oh, yeah. Prayer is the deepest ache of our hearts being given voice. That's deep. That's deeper than I have time to But she talks about how God, our triune God, is like a cord.
• 27:39
  So her quote is, to get technical, as Doctor. Jeremy Bigby, I'm gonna say, Bigby, taught me in divinity school, we know the Trinity like we know a chord. A chord is when multiple notes are played at the same time, in this case, three notes. Each note resonates with its own sound and tone, but the sound of the individual notes are inextricable from the sound of the three notes together. The notes are a community, a nestled in sound that is at once the sum of its parts more than the sum of its parts, and its individual parts shining bright.
• 28:15
  Wow, that was a lot of
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: words. That was so many words.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: So basically, that's what she's saying. Mhmm. Is the triune goddess, kind of like notes. Moving on to chapter five. God gave you that beautiful body on purpose.
• 28:32
  This
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: one, I I read through specifically all just the titles back to back of the chapters. And this one hit me.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I know. Like, smacked me across the face. I actually really like this chapter. It's not just about like, self love. But it's deeper than that.
• 28:52
  So she quotes Genesis one twenty seven, which is saying, God created humanity in God's own image. In the divine image, God created them. Basically what she says in this chapter is, to be human is to have a body. Mhmm. To be a Christian is to have a body.
• 29:12
  And so often in this world, we're taught to be ashamed of our body. In the Christian world, your body is sinful. Mhmm. And you need to cover it up.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Well, also your body is a temple. And you have to take care of it in such a way.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But in the secular world, we're told that our bodies are ugly and shameful. Mhmm. And we're never gonna be thin enough. We're not gonna have clear enough skin.
• 29:41
  We're not gonna have perfect hair. We're never gonna have painted toenails 100% of the time. Mom. Mom. There's just no winning Right.
• 29:51
  In the Christian world or not in the Christian world. And what she's arguing is just, just love your body because you have a body. Because with all of its imperfections, that's how God created you. Because God thought it was good enough to come into the world in the human form, in the human way. He didn't think it was disgusting.
• 30:17
  And while the human body needs a divine tending to, it's not a divine problem. Wow.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, so much of the world. You can look at both secular and religious sides because every single commercial on TV is telling you, you're too fat, your skin has broken out, or you've got wrinkles,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: or your hair is gray. Shut up.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: But then I think about the church spaces that I've been in that have weight loss groups for women sponsored by the church that shame you for walking in and not going to the gym on a regular basis, where the pastor talks about his running club from the stage every single week. You know? And it does we do have to say when things are sponsored by the church, it feels like sponsored by God because that's what the church is supposed to be representative of. And it's hard to love your body when Christians and non Christians are saying hate it unless it's perfect, and it'll never be perfect.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: She says, God would not make something beautiful only for us to wish it took up less space. Take up as much space as you want. Do a full man spread on a plane.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: You know? Don't do that. It's really inconsiderate. But if the person next to
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: you does it, kick them. Yeah. Kick them. Yep. Or just put your leg over their leg.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: That'll make the flight comfortable. Yeah.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: So that chapter is about loving your body because God gave you that body and
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: you just gotta do it. You just gotta.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: You just gotta do it. It's uncomfortable. Get comfortable. Eve's question is the next chapter. So the next two chapters are talking about how women get blamed all of the time for Eve sinning first, even though she very directly says she quotes Genesis three:six through seven.
• 32:41
  And she very much puts an emphasis on how Adam was right with her. Yeah. He was standing right there. She basically, in this chapter, is saying that the sin was that Eve wanted to be like God. Mhmm.
• 32:59
  Because the fruit was gonna give her the knowledge of good and evil
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Like God. And how human is that? Not to not put blame on either one of them, but just to humanize them again and say, it's okay. Right. They wanted to be like God.
• 33:19
  And then the next part of their the whole Adam and Eve issue was their nakedness. Mhmm. The first thing they did after they ate from the fruit and had the knowledge of good and bad, evil and good, was they covered themselves up. Mhmm. They could have done anything.
• 33:39
  But instead, they're like, woah, we're naked.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: With each other, mind you, their partner.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. So they fashioned themselves some some loincloths and covered themselves up. And when God comes into the garden, he's like, what are you doing? And they're like, well, we had to cover ourselves up because we're naked. And he goes, who told you you were naked?
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. That's a really interesting question too, because I don't think God is saying the devil told you you were naked. I think he's almost saying sin told you you were naked.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Because God knew they were naked in that garden the entire time Mhmm. And did not have a problem with it. Mhmm. But now shame came into the mix.
• 34:23
  Right. And they had to cover themselves up. And what God does, what's so interesting here, is he makes them better clothes. Mhmm. They could have made them no clothes at all.
• 34:33
  Right. He could
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: have said, have better faith in me. Stay naked.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. But he was like, he he had mercy on them and said, I'm gonna make you better versions of these garbage clothes that you tried to make for yourselves. And that shows the compassion that God has for us, the patience that God has for us. He knew exactly what was gonna happen before it happened. Right.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Well, countless times throughout the Bible, God accepts our humanity. There are plenty of times where God says, rest. There are times where God says, eat. Where God says, take a break. You don't have to be everything, do everything, have all the faith in the world.
• 35:11
  I've got you. Mhmm. And I wish we knew how to lean into that a little bit better.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: That's not part of our human nature, you silly goose.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: So sorry.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: She compares, like, her daughter laughing and taking a bath and absolutely butt naked. Mhmm. And she's like, she's still naked in the garden. She's still having a great time because she has no concept of shame Yeah. Yet of her body.
• 35:39
  And when does that awareness start to happen? It's unfortunate. But one day we'll be naked in the garden again, because that was the original plan.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest, that makes me a little uncomfortable. But okay.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: She talks about that in the book. She goes, being naked in the garden was the original plan. Something happened. So on to part two. This section is called Redeeming the Bible.
• 36:06
  And she starts it with a myth. And the myth is, the Bible is a cut and dry rule book that is directly applicable to the twenty first century life, regardless of historical context or intertextual analysis. Mhmm. So that's the myth. And she's saying, believing that the Bible is a 100% accurate and you can just pull from it into our time today Mhmm.
• 36:32
  It's not really gonna make a whole lot of sense. It's gonna make it a lot more complicated. Right. Rather than looking at the Bible and saying, what a beautiful love story this is from God to His people.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Chapter eight. Sarah laughed at God, and God liked it. This is the title. She's like, Sarah and Abraham had their issues. Mhmm.
• 36:56
  But if you know the story of Sarah and Abraham, God promised Sarah a child, and that child would go on to
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Be the father of all nations. Yes.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: But Sarah gets older and older and older, and she's starting to doubt God's promises. Because she's kind of to the point where she can have no children. And an angel visits Abraham and basically says, Yep, this promise is going to be fulfilled. Just have patience. And at that point, Abraham had sent Sarah away.
• 37:28
  We've talked about this story before.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. To make a butt ton of bread. So much bread. And Sarah overhears this and laughs. Mhmm.
• 37:38
  And God chimes in and he's like, did Sarah just laugh at me? The beginning of this chapter, she quotes Margaret Atwood. She said that a greatest fear for a man is that a woman would laugh at him. Mhmm. The greatest fear for a woman is that a man would kill her.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Margaret Atwood is the author of A Handmaid's Tale.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, she is. So in this chapter, Lizzie talks about how God does not have the fear that men have, I guess. He doesn't fear laughter.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Because he knows what's gonna happen. Mhmm. He knows absolutely, this is so silly, Sarah. I know. I know that this sounds crazy.
• 38:21
  This promise sounds crazy. But I'm gonna make it come true. Right. God doesn't have that same fear that we do. I love to make Brie and
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I are like, I know you know that we joke on the podcast, but this is how we are in real life, where we're just, like, utterly ridiculous most of the time. And so it's not uncommon that translates to us making jokes about our faith, us making jokes about God. And every time we do it, someone gasps. I know. Blasphemy.
• 38:54
  But I sincerely, truly don't believe that's blasphemy. Because I'm not like, God sucks. Blah blah blah blah. I'm like, making a joke. And I think God has a sense of humor.
• 39:07
  And I have every ounce of faith that God is up there cracking up when I make a good joke. Okay?
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: I think that's the difference between having a relationship
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: With God and not having a relationship with God is I treat my relationship with God like a friendship, like a relationship. And yes, absolutely, there's a different respect level. Right. But I think God, you're right, has a sense of humor. God laughed with Sarah.
• 39:39
  Mhmm.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: And he liked it. Well, when Jesus comes down as a part of God, he does and I think I I haven't actually watched The Chosen, but my husband said that this is a really great part of it, where they represent Jesus as laughing, making jokes, saying stupidness with his disciples. And that's a piece of God's character. Human. Yeah.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Human. I hate when you do that. I know. The next chapter is about Hagar. And we've done a whole episode on Hagar, so definitely go back and listen to it.
• 40:15
  But Hagar was the slave of Sarah. And she was also the first person to name God. Mhmm. And she talks about how important and how impactful that is for this enslaved woman to experience God in a different way than she was surrounded by.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: So she calls God something different than she would have heard her masters say. She doesn't say Lord, savior, that kind of thing. She calls him Elroy, which is the God who sees. Because he sees her through her hard times, and she trusts him enough when she's running away because Sarah's abusive. There's a whole story.
• 41:01
  Please go back and listen to it. I don't have time to explain it. But she's running away from an abusive situation, and God tells her to go back. But says, I'll be with you, and made promises to Hagar in the same way that he made promises to Abraham and Sarah. And Hagar trusts God enough in that moment to say, Okay, you're the God who sees.
• 41:28
  You know better than me. Mhmm. And I'm gonna go back into that abusive situation. And it's really it's a difficult story Mhmm. To wrap your head around.
• 41:37
  And she does a really good job speaking on this, and I encourage you to read this book.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I do want to put a little disclaimer in here. I know this story and like Brie said, we've we've done multiple episodes on this story. But when God sends Hagar back into an abusive situation, we are not sitting here saying, stay in your abusive situation. No. God wants you to go back, etcetera, etcetera.
• 42:03
  Run. This is descriptive, not prescriptive.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: This is not something that you can take and pin on your own life and say, look what Hagar did. I'm gonna be like Hagar.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Exactly what she said at the beginning of this section. Like, you can't take these stories and put them into the twenty first
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: century and
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: expect that everything is perfect. Mhmm. And this is a rule book for your life. Right.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: No. Because in this scenario, God knew that both Hagar and her son would die if she left, if she ran away. There was nowhere for her to go. If you are in an abusive situation, there is somewhere for you to go. I guarantee you, there is.
• 42:47
  And you will be safe and well and better than you are. So don't take this story and put it No. Pin it on your life.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: No. But remember, God sees you. Mhmm. And she says, God sees us in our public and private moments. God sees all of us for all who we are, including the parts we don't even want to reveal to ourselves.
• 43:11
  God sees all of us. So do you want me to continue with Joseph's fabulous couture coat? Alright. I think we
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: can do one more chapter. This is gonna have to be a three parter, as it turns out.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: As it turns out, this goes on for a while. She talks about Joseph's fabulous couture coat, his coat of many colors. And the language, the original language which describes this coat is the same language that describes Tamar, the daughter of King David, and her outfit. Mhmm. So basically, it's a princess robe that he's wearing, which is totally fine, and he's kind of seen as a Bible gay icon.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Coat of many colors, man.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Coat of many colors. And how Joseph is kind of a stinker because he's daddy's favorite. Mhmm. And his dad gave him this very expensive, very colorful coat. And he got to sit and watch while his brothers were doing all of the hard labor.
• 44:14
  Mhmm. And say, hey, I had a dream that all of you would bow down to me. Did you know?
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna be honest. I really get why they don't like him.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Joseph was kind of a little bit of a turd. Mhmm. So his brothers are out in the field working, and they said, here comes Joseph. Let's kill him. That might be a bit extreme.
• 44:34
  Cover his coat in blood, bring it back to our dad, and say he got eaten by an animal. That's a great idea. Love it. Execute. But then they see a better opportunity.
• 44:45
  Mhmm. They said, okay, here's the thing. We'll do that. We'll say that he died, but really what we're gonna do is sell him so we can make some money So off of his brothers sell him. It's a really bad situation.
• 44:59
  And this is where she talks about envy being the seed of hate. And how the brothers are very envious of the father's love for Joseph. And that creates hatred within them to do horrible hate crimes against Joseph. Right. But how God was able to turn it into something good.
• 45:22
  So Joseph goes over to Egypt. And he is interpreting Pharaoh's dreams. And he kind of climbs up the ladder. Mhmm. From being thrown in the dungeon to now being Pharaoh's right hand man.
• 45:40
  And Joseph was able to save the land because he interpreted a dream, knew that there was famine coming, and so they collected a bunch of grain. So now his brothers, long story short, we're fast forwarding. His brothers, sorry, need a food. And they have to go, and they make a trip, and they see Joseph, and they don't recognize him. But you sure better believe Joseph recognizes his brothers.
• 46:06
  And they're begging for food. And Joseph, a very human response, is like, throw them in the dungeon. Get them out of here. I'm gonna say they're spies. So brothers are freaking out.
• 46:17
  They're in the dungeon. They're being called spies. And through an incredible act of mercy, Joseph brings them out and tells them, guess who I am, you buttholes. Was that an exact quote? Yeah.
• 46:33
  And he says, what you intended to harm me, God intended for good. Mhmm. And God can make anything beautiful happen out of terrible situation. Horrible, horrible things happen in this world. Mercy is brutal.
• 46:51
  Mercy is hard to give and also hard to receive. Mhmm. Because you can see yourself in both, in this story, both as the oppressed and the oppressor.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: She says mercy is a language of God's imagination for what we can be, all of us, together.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: Wonderful. I think mercy is one of those concepts that when someone tells you to give it, it seems so easy. You know, like, someone would be like, well, give them grace. Give them mercy. You know, whatever.
• 47:24
  As though it's just like, hold on, let
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: me pull from my well of
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: infinite mercy. But practically, mercy does hurt. It is hard. It is something that God asks of us that we don't want to give ever. And yet, it is such a piece of God's character that we need to share.
• 47:49
  And it's hard because usually, in those instances where we need to show mercy, it's because someone really hurt us. And I I don't think any of us are always doing this right. I don't think any of us has a perfect explanation of like, and here's how to do it. But we should keep trying because God intends it for good.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: God intends it for good, and then you can ask God for help. Mhmm. I think sometimes it feels impossible to extend forgiveness and mercy to some people in certain situations. And it's only through the power of God that we're able to do it. Mhmm.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Now, we only got through 11 chapters. Our intention was to get through 20. Mhmm. So there's some possibility this will turn into a three parter, which we haven't done in quite a while. So buckle up and be ready for that.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Your homework, ladies and germs, is to read this book so that I don't give you little thirty second snippets of
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: each chapter. She has such a beautiful way with words. And when I say she, I mean Reverend Lizzie No. Not my sister. Rude.
• 49:03
  Who also has a lovely way with words.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Another suitor for the princess. Princess.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we say things, and I know
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: no one gets
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: it. Brie and I have really specific references that we use all the dang time. Most of them are from the Grinch, but no one else follows. So I'm sorry if sometimes that happens to you on this podcast.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: If you know what that was from, shoot us a a DM. And we'll give you a
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: sticker. Yeah. Alright. So next week, we will be getting into the next few chapters. Hopefully, a
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: good chunk of the next few chapters. The next chapter is called, Is This Exodus or Is This Texas? That sounds frightening. That's ominous.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Alright. So tune in for that next week. Follow us on social media. If you don't, you can mostly find us on Instagram and TikTok at the hashtag we are more. And I'm a let Brie get off of this because I don't know if she's tired or what, but she's trying to eat her microphone.
• 50:06
  I don't know what to do with myself. Okay. Love you. Bye.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: Love you. Bye. Sorry.