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Integration Over Balance With the Bishops · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:23
  Hey guys, Jeremy and April here. We are on the family teams podcast and excited to introduce our friends, Ian and Bianca. Thank you guys for joining us today. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Excited to be here. So if you guys are looking at the video portion of this, we've got our nice Douglas Furr background. They are currently in the Northwest on Whidbey Island.
• 0:43
  And he and Bianca are on Maui, where they live. And why don't you guys just introduce yourselves, your family, a little bit to us before we dive in. Yeah, so we're here on Maui. We've been here for 13 years, been married for 13 years. And we've got four boys that are 2, 3, 10, and 11. Yeah.
• 1:03
  Yeah, so we've got a wonderfully wild household. We call it the Bobcat, Dan. That's awesome. That's great. Yeah. Yeah, definitely the culture of the family gets very implicated by the gender of the kids. So for boys, that's going to be a lot of activity. And I think that's going to really help us try to understand this topic today. So Ian and I are both in a group called Integrated. That's part of family teams where we are trying to figure out how to do integration of family and faith in our business. Yeah.
• 1:30
  And so one of the things that we talk about over there is integration over balance. This is a different way of really viewing how to think about work and how to think about how family and work overlap. So I'll read some of these thoughts to you guys. I want to get Ian, Bianca, and April's take on this. So one of the most unnatural elements of modern life is the disintegration of work and family. Many kids grow up having no idea how their parents make money.
• 1:55
  They grow up in their kid world, and parents live in a grown-up world. This feels normal to us, but it's strange, both historically and practically. Historically, because in the past, the majority of families lived and worked together, whether on farms or in trades. But there's a practical cost to making work a child-free zone that most of us are unaware of.
• 2:14
  Families end up living a disintegrated life. This is how it works. Adults spend a huge percentage of their time working. We assume this is normal. But consider this thought experiment. If all you had was the Bible to determine what a kid should be doing with his or her time during their childhood, what would they spend most of their time doing? The best place I found in the Bible to answer this question is in Deuteronomy 6, 7, and 8. It says,
• 2:37
  And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise. It seems clear from this passage that children were with their parents asking questions all day long. Now, this may seem impossible today, but I find it helpful to ask, are there creative ways we can recapture some of this experience in our day?
• 3:03
  Despite having directives like Deuteronomy 6, Christian parents seem to follow the secular world and making the target a new idea we call work-life balance. We seek to negotiate with our employers to build a firewall between our work life and our family life in order to provide the maximum presence for our family. Now, if you have an employer, work-life balance may be the best you can do. Employers expect you to be 100% focused when you're at work.
• 3:27
  They're paying you for your time. And if they own all of you during your, all of your attention during that time, but let's consider another possibility. What if you could have one well-trained child with you while you work and make your work five, maybe 10% less efficient?
• 3:42
  Would this trade-off be worth it? When I transitioned from employment to business ownership, I started an experiment with the goal of integration over work-life balance. I took one of my kids to work with me for part or a full day. Here were some of the results. One, my productivity decreased by about 5%. Also one-on-one time with each of my kids increased by over 200%.
• 4:03
  Work for them became demystified. The dynamic at home for my wife improved. I felt like a father even while at work. During intense work seasons, I spent time, lots of time still with my family, and my kids got to watch me do hard things. Since I was the owner of the business, the decrease in productivity was something I could choose to let the business absorb since the other results for my family were so positive.
• 4:26
  We also extended this option to the rest of our employees. They could run what we called an experiment in integration to see if integrating family and work could result in only a small productivity decrease while greatly increasing the quality of family life. This reason alone can make the transition to things like business ownership or homeschooling worth it for many families. Imagine getting to spend that much more time with your kids during their childhood. Maybe God intended families to live an integrated life.
• 4:52
  Today, it takes intentionality and out-of-the-box thinking to pull it off. So we need to encourage family teams who are giving integrated lifestyle a try. So that's part of what we want to do here is, you know, I know that stirs up a lot of questions for people. Oh, my gosh. What, like, is that really possible? There are a lot of situations in which I know that creates challenges. And so we wanted to do a podcast on this just to, like, kind of...
• 5:13
  We looked at the ideal and some of the biblical backing, but I also want to have a conversation with Ian and Bianca, with April about, okay, what could this look like? What are the actual practical challenges? So I'm curious for you guys, Ian and Bianca, what does that start for you guys? Do you guys hear the integration over a work-life balance?
• 5:31
  Yeah, you know, when you kind of introduced me to this topic, probably two years ago, it was something that really like intrigued me. And I feel like it's definitely not something that we've figured out. But it's something that's a constant conversation of like wrestling with and trying to refine and try and tweak new things. And I was just talking with a friend the other day of like, how do you put some of that into place practically, right? And like coming up with just small wins. And so one of the things that we talked about, which was something that we've gone through is like,
• 5:59
  just let's just make it a win that we have dinner together every night. Like if we're not doing that already, let's just make that the first win. And then we stick to that. And then it's like, all right, could we also add into their breakfast? Right. And so now, so we're having breakfast and dinner all as a family together every day.
• 6:14
  And then I just saw our mutual friend, Blake posted something the other day inspiring where he's having breakfast, lunch, and dinner all together as a family. And I'm like, man, like that's, you're doing it, right? You're integrating all of it where it's all cohesive like that. And so, yeah, we've looked at that idea of kind of, I think it's stirred in our hearts, like a balance thing just didn't scratch the itch. It just didn't do it. You know, it's like,
• 6:42
  I don't want to be the person that goes to church on Sunday, goes to work Monday through Friday, these hours, and then has these, you know, twilight hours for my kids or my wife. Yeah. I don't know. I just didn't feel like it scratched that itch. It didn't feel natural or fulfilling. And so I feel like we've tried a few of those experiments with that integration piece. And yeah, one of them, today is Friday. My three-year-old comes to work with me for like an hour, right? Like he's not well-trained enough to be there all day or anything, but yeah.
• 7:12
  I know the little routine that I can go in and check my email. And during that time, he kind of explores the office and hangs out a little bit. And then we walk down to the business office and check in there and say hi and sign checks. And he gets a candy out of the candy jar. And he loves seeing all the ladies and saying good morning. And by then, it's about time to start wrapping up and pack up the backpack. And Bianca comes and picks him up.
• 7:37
  And so now every day of the week, he wakes up and he asks, is today Friday? And it's like such a fun, like cool little thing that he looks forward to. But yeah, it's an experiment. I think one thing for me, and I asked you this a while back, but like,
• 7:53
  we've wrestled with in some of these instances where I've had autonomy in the business, because I work in a family business and then we do some marketing and consulting as well. But in the family business, kind of wrestling with that tension of wanting the integration for ourselves, but then how do we also balance that with our employees?
• 8:10
  Right. In a customer service role, like you don't really expect someone to have their kid with kind of the age thing. And I think you helped clarify it with some of that, like well-trained, what that looks like compared to work becoming a daycare. I think that's where some of that tension exists or the difference maybe. But yeah, it's been something that I feel like we've been really intrigued with and wrestling with and kind of why we wanted to have this conversation because it's like, man,
• 8:37
  There is something here and we don't have it figured out by any means, but I think it's something that a lot of people yearn for. Yeah. And especially in the young kids age as well, like figuring out what that training looks like. But when I would say we lived with our older boys in their younger years, very much the work-life balance model, trying to figure that out. And it felt a lot of, it doesn't work. It feels like because it's a lot of work-life balance in the sense of like, okay, well,
• 9:06
  I'm kids and then where's my balance? Or you're going to work and then you come home, where's your balance? And it becomes this like keeping score where we're almost on separate runs to each other, but never getting in the same lane. And so it feels like the integration that we're starting and figuring out and working through, and it might be clunky, you might run into each other, but we're in the same lane, being towards the same finish line. So it's been cool to work that out.
• 9:36
  That's really awesome. I love that. I love hearing about the little guy too. That's a little three-year-old. That's really creative. I love the creative idea of like, let's just try it for an hour. And I mean, that's part of the training process, right? Like you give him a boundary time and you get to kind of explain some things to him and then he gets to figure it out.
• 9:56
  And then over time, he'll get to increase that time or whatever. I think that that's a really great way to do it if you have that freedom. I think one thing that just actually kind of struck me today. So we're here running kind of like a boot camp for teenagers who, that's like a discipleship boot camp, I guess. We're serving this camp while the camp is going on. So all the kids here, there's 10 guys, 10 girls, and their age is mostly between 16 and 18.
• 10:25
  Our two of our girls are participating in that. And then one of them is in a leadership position, cabin leading and Jeremy and I are directing. And so I feel like the, you know, raising our kids in the integrated mindset allows us to do something like this. So I was just thinking, cause we kind of walk a fine line when they become teenagers.
• 10:46
  where we want them to have a particular opportunity in our world. That means we have to create it a lot of times. So if we're going to create a youth group with the dads leading, or if we're going to create, we want them to have this camp experience, but we don't want to be away from them for three weeks. So we are going to go direct that experience. And so we want to be in the leadership position and our kids are very used to seeing us in a leadership position. And so that,
• 11:13
  it's not awkward for them to be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe my mom's here. And she's like telling other people what to do. This is so embarrassing. Like you can imagine how it could be. Like that's probably how I would have been as a teenager. And for them to, cause it could be just like a vulnerable place for them. They're with peers and their mom and dad are telling everyone what to do, but they're kind of like,
• 11:33
  yeah, my mom and dad know. And so you guys should listen. And so it's like, wow, it just hit me today. I was like, I'm really grateful for the, cause I think a lot of that started with them going to work with Jeremy. Cause they got to see him in a leadership position, watching other people kind of like follow his lead and seeing him learn from either from his mistakes or treading into an area where he doesn't, didn't know. A lot of times they were in on meetings where Jeremy was kind of
• 12:01
  microscope, so to speak, and heard him being corrected and things like that. And so I think that that kind of ups their respect for him to see him not always knowing what he's doing, but he's willing to try to figure things out. And then it lets us kind of still be involved in the years where typically there's so much disintegration in the teen years. So yeah, that's what I'm seeing on this end.
• 12:25
  Yeah. And this, you pointed out, Ian, kind of the well-trained, I find this probably the most challenging maybe way of when we're talking about extending this to employees. The hard part is that most people, what I've noticed in our culture, they've already so capitulated to the idea that there are kid worlds and there's an adult world. Mm-hmm.
• 12:47
  That as soon as you say kids are welcome, they're like, oh, it's kid world. And so my kid can just run through the office and you are, you are volunteering to absorb all of the chaos because you guys, kids will be kids. And you said kids are welcome. And this has been a really challenging thing for us to try to communicate with employees. And that is that we don't believe that that is.
• 13:08
  the necessary distinction that we're trying to lean into. What we think is that we want kids to be contributing members within an adult world and to be able to recognize when they're in adult world and know that that takes time. That takes training. You do have to absorb, you know, childish, childishness throughout that process. But if, but we're not simply capitulating to that, like we're trying to create in our kids, like the more,
• 13:38
  The more my children can function well in adult world, the more time I get to spend with them. And that is a tremendous incentive for training my kids. And so I've always seen it that way. And when I talk to an employee, I have a similar heart for them. Like, I want you to spend more time with your children. And so I know that the barrier to that, because you spend so much of your time in an adult world, is your child, your children, they have to be trained.
• 14:06
  to function well in that world. And so, and we also obviously, like I said, make allowances for kids and the process and for what that could look like. And so I, you know, there is a reduction in efficiency. Like, I think it's important to say productivity is going to go down a little bit.
• 14:22
  That's reasonable to absorb, but it could also just fall off a cliff where people can't get any work done because there's just noise everywhere. And so there is some kind of balance. So, yeah, how have you guys tried to navigate that challenge in your different attempts at creating integration? With our kids? Like how we, yeah, okay.
• 14:42
  I would say, I mean, a couple of things come to mind in the workplace. It's definitely tough because at times too, a lot of our employees, both parents are working. And so if a kid is sick or something like that, a lot of the times we have those scenarios where someone brings a kid to work and it does feel a little bit more of that like daycare esque, you know, taking everything with it. And so the noise and the chaos and all that.
• 15:06
  But we actually have an employee. I didn't even think of this until now. It's a great example of this. And he's been with us for like probably six or seven years. His wife works for us as well. And he has a son who is 15, I want to say. And it's summer break right now. And so mom and dad are both at work. So son comes to work with them and well-trained. But he wants to be doing stuff, right? He's not like sitting in the corner on his phone.
• 15:33
  So, you know, our family business is in automotive. And so he goes out and he'll help wash cars. He'll take photos and like update images, inventory and stuff like that. And so, you know, you're already starting to see glimpses of like, he's learning skills. He's learning how to like be equipped that then in a couple of years, like, oh man, he could actually be an asset here. We did something a little different, I would say.
• 15:57
  in terms of, I think, trying to create some of the autonomy around it, where we had started a marketing company.
• 16:04
  And so we work together in that. I do more of the strategy. Bianca does more of a media buying. And then we have a third person that does the content creation. And my oldest son, I had him basically sit and watch. I had to convince him at first, right? Like, no, no, you're going to, it might seem a little boring, but you're going to sit here and you're going to watch me. Because that was something that happened over the years too, was like, my kids would, I would come home and they'd be like, dad, did you sell something today? And it's like, well, I don't.
• 16:32
  I don't do that anymore. And I think that was something that kind of like struck a chord when you talked about this, of like kids don't even know what you do for work, right? And so having them like realize that, well, I don't do that, buddy. Like, well, what do you do? And it's like, well, I do
• 16:44
  operations and marketing and to them like, well, what is that? And so trying to lean into like, okay, well, let me show you. Right. And so when you have something like computer-based like that, it's kind of tough to like articulate it to a kid and get them to understand the internet and all this. Right. But we had like some new creative that needed to get updated and some new ad campaigns. So I made the campaign with my son watching. And then I was like, okay, now we're going to take this one and we're going to duplicate it and create a new variation.
• 17:10
  And I gave him the mouse and the keyboard and everything. And I was like, so you just watched me do it. So now you do it. And I kind of made the deal with myself of like, I'm not going to touch the mouse. I'm not going to touch the keyboard.
• 17:22
  And it took us, you know, a good 30 minutes to run through five to 10 minute tasks, but he did the whole thing by himself. And the biggest hurdle in it was getting him to double click so that he could copy paste something. Couldn't get the double click fast enough. Like, no, you gotta, you just gotta do it faster. And it was so hard to not do it for him. It was like, you just got, no, it's double click. You gotta highlight the whole thing. And anyways.
• 17:47
  He duplicated, made his own little campaign variation in what we were doing. And every day would ask, how are my ads doing? How's it performing? I'm like, it's actually doing really well, you know? Oh, I know that. Great. You know, maybe we should do another one. And like in it, I let him, I think I let him create a couple of the headlines where it was like, here's what we're trying to like articulate or here's what we're trying to say. Like, how else could we say that? And he like made a little joke or something. And I was like, yeah, let's put that in there.
• 18:14
  And so now he'll like suggest things. He's like, well, what if we made one and it said this, what if we made one and it said this? And so that's been really cool to just see like in a small way, like, yeah, you understand what I'm doing. You're now like involved in it. And I think,
• 18:31
  I mean, our kids are still young. He's 11. And I get a little ahead of myself in those sometimes because I'm like, man, we could put him on the payroll. Like he could be a freelance and then the tax benefits. And like, you know, I started getting into all that. I'm like, so if they did all the content creation and then we could write off their payroll, but they don't have to pay taxes on it. And then we take that money and we make them pay for their own stuff. Like I get a little ahead of myself in that, but I can easily see where like people with older kids,
• 18:59
  That could be a really cool, I think that's where we're headed. I think that'll be something in the coming years as they get into those teenage years and they start dabbling, exploring different ventures. And it kind of gives us a mind for like, okay, what do we want to start or create? Similar to what you're saying of like,
• 19:14
  What do we want to start to create so that they then have access to those things to be integrated as opposed to like, is the thing I'm creating have opportunity for integration? And if it doesn't, it's like not as appealing versus going up. If by doing this, I now get access to these other people that then my son could sit in on those meetings and learn from them.
• 19:36
  Like that seems like something I want to say yes versus something that's more, you know, isolating or one-on-one or sometimes it's almost like too serious. You know, like my office is under renovation right now. So this is where I take my calls and occasionally in the morning, like my three-year-old or my two-year-old will run out and interrupt the call. And it's not the end of the world. Right. And like, I can talk, Hey buddy, I just need a couple of minutes, whatever, you know, and we have a family assistant that helps us and she'll always apologize. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm like,
• 20:05
  It's okay because anybody that I'm talking to on a Zoom, if they're not okay with that interruption, they're not the person I want to be interacting with or talking to. Totally. And so I feel like it just kind of bleeds over into your whole life, your business, everything.
• 20:18
  Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. There was that famous video that went viral, right? That guy who was, I guess, on a news program and his kids appear in the background and the wife came bursting in the door, all the kids and the toddler comes running in and it's, you know, it's funny because again, we're, we think, and it's important to admit this, like
• 20:36
  We're a culture that really believes in disintegration. We want family children to be in their own world. That's a strange decision. That's not historically normal. And there's a lot of cultures in the world that don't do that. We're in a very extreme example of that. And I think that we need to challenge that because there's all kinds of implications when you say...
• 20:54
  You know, I think a lot of people, a lot of adults that don't have children are growing up in a world where they don't even know what kids are like. And, you know, they're they're just they're living in a complete there is sort of almost this child free obsession, because I think a lot of that comes from people either don't see kids or they see really untrained kids. And so those are their two exposures. And they are like, I'd rather child free.
• 21:18
  And so it's just that whereas in the past you had this desire for integration. I know that one of my friends asked an Amish gentleman, it's strange to us why you guys, I get some of the things you guys do in terms of your faith and where you might get that from the Bible, but why are you guys so into farming? And that's not necessarily something that's required.
• 21:43
  And his answer was, we only will choose a profession in which we can eat all three meals with our children. Like we will literally choose how to work based on that as the number one criteria. And that's a fascinating idea that one of the criteria, I don't know necessarily I would choose that one that stringently, but I certainly do think that a criteria that almost nobody
• 22:11
  you know, asks, nobody sitting in the high school, a career counselor's office ever says, you know, what I really am looking for is I want a career that will maximize the integration with my future children. It's like, that's, that's not a thing, but it's, you know, it's a huge deal. And this is one of the reasons to, to start things on the side. If you are an employee somewhere and want to experience that integration. And I think one of the things you, you're mentioning Ian about the demystification. And I think that's a value that a lot of people
• 22:38
  they don't really have that, man, it's really cool when kids can see how we make money. And I was on a Quora back when that first started where people can ask questions and somebody asked the question, how do billionaires raise their kids differently than other people? And then a billionaire actually got on the thread and said, hey guys, I can tell you the one thing. He said, I have friends that are billionaires, blah, blah, blah. He said, there's one thing that we do differently that I've noticed and I just don't see with other people. And that is we want to demystify work for our children.
• 23:08
  And then he goes on to explain, like, we need our children to know how we make money if we really want them to succeed in being able to steward the things that potentially could be passed down to them. And I just think that's normal. Like, why wouldn't we want to demystify work for our children? Yeah.
• 23:23
  And I think part of the industrial revolution where we made kind of work a series of hyper-specializations where you have to somehow get a very advanced degree in some cases, and then you work in an extremely sterile and disintegrated environment. That's a very unusual sort of state for a lot of people to make money in. And even if you do make your money in a hyper-specialized way, I think it's great to demystify work. But I think that even...
• 23:53
  That for me has given me reason to consider building assets and looking at other forms of work that will connect with my kids that they where they can kind of connect the dots. Okay, this is how this works. I love what you described about just, you know, obviously now your son's like, oh, this is, you know, you build an ad, you, you know, market a product, you, you know, create some awareness and I can see the steps how that works.
• 24:50
  Bianca, I'd love to hear more from you on like how this transition, was this a transition for you? Were you guys pretty much already on the same page or did, what were some of the struggles and then like, how has it been beneficial for you so far? It was a, it was a post integrated word vomit. Yeah, I think it was. It came home from integrated and, but I think even before he was a part of integrated, we had this season of our life where our older two were probably like five and six and we
• 25:20
  flash shatter moment where we were like, why are we doing this? Why are we sending our kids to private school? Why are we working six days a week, dividing and conquering? Like, let's look up for a second and look at our life and our marriage and our relationship with our kids. And it's like, Ooh, this is not what we, this is not sustainable. And I think that's when we started kind of toying with different things, but we didn't really get clear on the why or how
• 25:45
  And after Ian came home from integrated one time and was kind of sharing all this, I was like, yeah, yeah. Like this sounds great. This sounds like, how do we do this? And we kind of pendulum swung where it was like, we're, we're going to homeschool all the things and do all the things and never be do anything separate from each other ever. And it's like trying to find like our middle now where it's like, okay, for this season, it makes sense for the older boys to be in school.
• 26:13
  Like we will reevaluate in six months. For this season, it makes sense that, you know, as we go to work with you on Friday. But it's allowing ourselves to tinker with it. And I think for me, the greatest benefit I've seen, even just the past with leaning more into marketing stuff, is seeing Ian flourishing in work and how that affects the older boys. Like they are coming at.
• 26:37
  into themselves and coming into their like oh your conversations were integrating more and family bonded in that voice really come to themselves what we're doing and things like that but just the fact they're watching that and then being invited into conversation inviting into dreaming just integrated more I can see them becoming themselves and like with others that's been happening I think initially it was a little bit of a lonely journey
• 27:07
  Because I think, you know, we've talked about this mostly from like an enterprise perspective. But I think a lot of the people that are on board for this idea...
• 27:17
  more of the solopreneur types where they're working from home or they're doing something like that, right? Yeah. And I think they're the ones that have more of a push for it and they're bought in on it or whatever. But I think the resistance to that more enterprise capacity. And so when we first started going about it, it was like, I feel like there's no model to follow here. I don't know what this looks like. And almost kind of the other extreme, we were just talking with some friends about this the other day that like kind of using the farm example,
• 27:45
  that sometimes like when dad works from home and we've dabbled with this before too and trying to figure out like okay well that's not integration like the other end of that spectrum being when dad works from home it doesn't just mean he's available 24 7 right like but in the farming example like you know the guy that the farmer that has 10 acres like in the middle of the day if he's plowing the field like
• 28:09
  He's five acres away and he can't come hold the baby. He can't change the diaper real quick. I mean, it's like as ideal as that might sound, that wasn't actually what it looked like. And I think sometimes good people misinterpret integration too far to that extreme as like, well, no, that just means not to rile you up, Jeremy, but that like a dad is now mom and is doing all these things as well.
• 28:36
  Yes. Yeah, there's definitely this, I think, expectation that a lot of people have that that children need 100 percent of your attention and that you need to be 100 percent present in their presence. And I definitely think there are times for that. But again, that then precludes them being present when you're working and they only get, you know, a smaller percentage of your attention.
• 28:59
  And that doesn't injure children when you are able to explain what's going on. And they're able to detect and be trained about different environments and how they're used differently. And there are times where you can access dad and he will give you his full attention. There are times where you need to be quiet and let dad work.
• 29:17
  you know, or mom in any of these situations. And so, yeah, I think that that that drive towards children are are going to be injured when corrected because of your lack of total availability. You know, I think the opposite of them seeing their parents do difficult things.
• 29:37
  seeing, seeing their, their dad at work and focused or their mom focused on a task to, to see these, these are great examples for kids. And, and sometimes things do need to be explained to them about, you know, why, why, why they can't get a hundred percent of our attention. So I think these are, these are complex conversations. It's really difficult to restore the
• 30:01
  what was happening pre-industrial revolution. It's going to be messy. And I think that what we're really encouraging people is to number one, consider trying, consider what it could look like if you have a lifestyle that might allow for a deeper level of integration.
• 30:18
  Instead of capitulating to adult and children realms and worlds being completely separated, really start to value intergenerational connection between people and getting to maximize that time if it can be done in a healthy way.
• 30:34
  And really exploring what that looks like. And that this drive towards work-life balance, while in certain cases, I think it's the best we can do, it's still, from a design perspective, I think inferior to allowing children and parents to live in an integrated environment. So any last things that any of you guys want to mention before we close up?
• 30:55
  I think the Deuteronomy 6 thing is just really important to remember. It's broad enough that it gives us no matter what our situation is. Like if you're listening to this and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so far away from this. Just think of it as Deuteronomy 6 is like a broad umbrella that we can like try and have attempts under and then something to move towards where we can be with our children when we wake up and when we're walking by the road and when we're
• 31:24
  You know, and then as you open yourself up to this idea, I think the steps you take, well, you'll end up somewhere instead of just capitulating to the status quo. You guys have anything else? I think the last thing I would say is one of the things that I've really enjoyed in kind of bringing the kids into some of the work capacity stuff is seeing them witness how you treat people, how you deal with conflict, how you deal with confrontation, those kind of things. I think I've really enjoyed that.
• 31:54
  in terms of them getting to kind of witness like because I think my goal or my intention is I want them to see like oh dad's the same person and so them getting to witness how we treat people how we talk to people you know deal with challenges that kind of thing kind of like you were saying Jeremy I think that's a gift for them to then get to see that and and solidify that yeah and I would say something for me that I've learned from this which is just so simple about like
• 32:19
  Home is the training ground for them to be with dad at work or be with mom in tasks. Like, you know, Ezra, we're going to work on sitting at the table, drawing and being quiet. You know, work on obedience, work on that. So that I'm confident too that when I'm sending you out, you can do that with, you know, other people. Yeah.
• 32:42
  I think that's been helpful too. Love that. Yeah. So well said guys. Thank you guys so much. I love the fact that, you know, in this, you're on this journey with us, we're all trying to figure this out. I think it's going to have a huge blessing to our children. So we want to get this out and let people, other people really wanting to build family teams know, Hey, this is an option for you really consider like switching the goal from just work-life balance to integration.
• 33:07
  God willing, that could require or necessitate a few shifts in how you think about work, how you think about training kids. And that's why we really want to emphasize this. So thank you guys so much for being on this today and sharing your wisdom with us. Appreciate it. Yeah, thanks.