Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #105 Jason Flom, John Grisham and Chip Harding with Jens Soering

Transcript

#105 Jason Flom, John Grisham and Chip Harding with Jens Soering · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty five, Derek and Nancy Haysm were found
0:04
Speaker 1: brutally stabbed to death in their Bedford County, Virginia home.
0:08
Speaker 1: When their daughter, Elizabeth Haysm became a prime suspect. She
0:11
Speaker 1: and her boyfriend Jen Zuring, the son of a German diplomat,
0:15
Speaker 1: fled together on an international run from this double homicide.
0:19
Speaker 1: When Athoris caught up with them in London. YenS followed
0:22
Speaker 1: through on his promise in this scenario to use his
0:24
Speaker 1: diplomatic community in order to save the love of his life, Elizabeth,
0:29
Speaker 1: from the electric chair, so he falsely confessed to the murders. Now,
0:33
Speaker 1: Yen's had type O blood and this was before DNA testing,
0:36
Speaker 1: so the type O blood founded the scene only served
0:39
Speaker 1: to corroborate his involvement, leading to his conviction. Elizabeth was
0:44
Speaker 1: convicted as an accessory. When that type O blood that
0:48
Speaker 1: convicted Yen's was finally tested for DNA, it excluded him.
0:51
Speaker 2: As the source.
0:52
Speaker 1: However, this was still not enough for the Commonwealth of
0:55
Speaker 1: Virginia to admit their mistake and set him free. On
0:59
Speaker 1: February fourth, twenty nineteen, we released an interview with En Zurring,
1:03
Speaker 1: along with two of his most ardent supporters, the legendary
1:07
Speaker 1: author and former defense attorney and Innocents Project board member
1:10
Speaker 1: John Grisham and Albemarle County, Virginia Sheriff Chip Harding. Since then,
1:16
Speaker 1: as many of you now know, the en Zurring situation
1:18
Speaker 1: has improved immensely. In this episode, we will re release
1:22
Speaker 1: much of the original interview, along with some new content,
1:25
Speaker 1: including an excerpt from an interview that I did with
1:27
Speaker 1: doctor Phil in which we spoke with Yen's again from
1:30
Speaker 1: Buckingham Correctional Facility. We will of course keep you updated
1:35
Speaker 1: on this ongoing story. This is Ronfuel Conviction.
1:48
Speaker 3: Hello, this is a prepage get it call from an
1:54
Speaker 3: innate department of Buckingham coersional to accept it, call plus
2:01
Speaker 3: zero to refuse this call. Y call is from a
2:04
Speaker 3: correction facility and it's subject to monitoring and recording. Thank
2:09
Speaker 3: you for.
2:09
Speaker 1: Having Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
2:14
Speaker 2: It's me.
2:15
Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today we have an episode that
2:18
Speaker 1: is going to rock your world.
2:22
Speaker 2: We have three guests today.
2:24
Speaker 1: I'm gonna save the best for last, but we have
2:27
Speaker 1: John Grisham in the studio with us. John, Welcome, delighted
2:30
Speaker 1: to be here. And Sheriff Chip Harding of Albamarle County. Yes, sir,
2:34
Speaker 1: good to be here Virginia. And on the phone is
2:37
Speaker 1: Yen Surring, one of the most remarkable people I know
2:41
Speaker 1: and one of the most extraordinary cases of injustice that
2:45
Speaker 1: we've ever covered on this show. So, Yen's I always say,
2:49
Speaker 1: I'm I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're here.
2:53
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this, stadent,
2:56
Speaker 4: and thanks to Chip John as well.
2:59
Speaker 1: So this is a case that takes us back to
3:02
Speaker 1: the eighties, believe it or not, a case that has
3:06
Speaker 1: all the makings of a John Grisham novel. Actually, because
3:11
Speaker 1: this goes back to Yen's when you were first an
3:16
Speaker 1: exchange student from Germany, a brilliant young scholar. From everything
3:19
Speaker 1: I'm told this is a Jefferson scholar, a freshman at
3:22
Speaker 1: the University of Virginia. YenS, do you want to take
3:25
Speaker 1: us back there and tell us how this started?
3:30
Speaker 4: Sure, this was a nineteen eighty four in the five
3:35
Speaker 4: I arrived at the University of Virginia as a freshman
3:40
Speaker 4: called christ students there, and I met a young woman
3:45
Speaker 4: there who was two and a half years older than
3:47
Speaker 4: I was, Eliab, and we were both in the same dormitory.
3:54
Speaker 4: She had entered the university because she had.
3:56
Speaker 5: Had an adventuress.
4:00
Speaker 6: She had gone to an English boarding school and run
4:03
Speaker 6: away with her girlfriends to Europe, things like that, and
4:07
Speaker 6: so she came to Uva quite a bit.
4:10
Speaker 4: Older than the rest of us in that dormitory. And
4:14
Speaker 4: I was not an American citizen. My father was a
4:18
Speaker 4: German diplomat, That's why I was living in the United States.
4:22
Speaker 4: And her family came from South Africa and from Canada, so.
4:28
Speaker 7: We were.
4:30
Speaker 4: Drawn to each other as being foreigners, not Americans.
4:36
Speaker 5: And in the course of that false semester in nineteen
4:39
Speaker 5: eighty four, we fell in love. And you know, it
4:45
Speaker 5: was quite a surprise to everybody else from the dormitory
4:48
Speaker 5: because she was very experienced and very mature, and I was,
4:54
Speaker 5: I guess.
4:55
Speaker 4: A nerd, an uber nerd and virgin to boot it.
4:59
Speaker 5: So she was my first girlfriend.
5:01
Speaker 1: You're a German uber version nerd. It's quite a combination, Yen.
5:05
Speaker 1: And she was a beautiful young woman, a striking woman
5:08
Speaker 1: who you know, anyone in your situation would have probably
5:11
Speaker 1: fallen head over heels for considering the circumstances. But it
5:15
Speaker 1: was of course a faithful star across love affair, yes, and.
5:19
Speaker 4: It was a very short lived love affair as well.
5:23
Speaker 4: Three months after we started dating, or maybe four months,
5:26
Speaker 4: we went to Washington, d C. Spend the weekend together,
5:30
Speaker 4: and in the course of that weekend, she told me
5:34
Speaker 4: that she was still.
5:36
Speaker 6: Using drugs, which she had previously.
5:39
Speaker 4: Told me she had to stop doing, and that she
5:41
Speaker 4: needed to use our rental car to run some drugs
5:45
Speaker 4: from Washington, d C.
5:47
Speaker 6: To her dealer, who was also the university student.
5:50
Speaker 4: Back in Charlottesville. And I wanted to come along, but
5:56
Speaker 4: she wouldn't let me because she said that I was
5:58
Speaker 4: such a.
5:58
Speaker 6: Nerd what people would want to do business around me?
6:03
Speaker 4: So she drove off in the car by herself and
6:06
Speaker 4: came back eight hours later untild me. She had killed
6:10
Speaker 4: her parents, and she said that.
6:14
Speaker 6: The drugs had made her do it and they had
6:16
Speaker 6: deserved it anyway, and if I didn't help her, she
6:22
Speaker 6: would be executed.
6:23
Speaker 4: She would be back then they used electric too, she
6:26
Speaker 4: said that they would try her. She said that I
6:29
Speaker 4: should be her alibi and tell the police she was
6:32
Speaker 4: with me in.
6:33
Speaker 6: Washington, and I told.
6:35
Speaker 4: Her that that would never ever work, because the.
6:37
Speaker 5: Police never believed boyfriends or husbands.
6:40
Speaker 6: Or wives and people like that.
6:42
Speaker 4: So I came up with this brilliant idea, based on
6:50
Speaker 4: Charles Dickens a Tale of Two Cities, of all things,
6:54
Speaker 4: I would take the blame for her. I would take
6:56
Speaker 4: the rap for her and save her life. That was
7:02
Speaker 4: based on a character in the Charles Dickens novel Sydney Carton.
7:07
Speaker 5: Who did that in this novel.
7:09
Speaker 4: The difference was that in the novel that particular character.
7:13
Speaker 6: Actually did get fixed.
7:15
Speaker 4: Whereas my father was a German diplomat, I thought I
7:20
Speaker 4: had diplomatic community. I thought that I could take the
7:25
Speaker 4: blame for her crime, and all that would happen with
7:29
Speaker 4: me was about be sent back to Germany and put
7:34
Speaker 4: in prison there, in trivenile prison for about ten years.
7:39
Speaker 4: And I thought that giving ten years of my life
7:43
Speaker 4: was worth saving your life from the electric too.
7:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of a twisted nobility. People do crazy
7:55
Speaker 1: things for love all the time. And we were talking
7:58
Speaker 1: about this earlier again, and I said that such a
8:00
Speaker 1: strange fate that you happen to have only been with
8:03
Speaker 1: one woman, and she turned out to be the devil.
8:05
Speaker 4: You know, it's calling her the devil is a little oversimplified.
8:10
Speaker 4: She was later diagnosed with a very severe personality disorder,
8:16
Speaker 4: so she actually had serious mental health issues. And of
8:21
Speaker 4: course she claimed that her mother had sexually.
8:24
Speaker 6: Abused her with the.
8:27
Speaker 4: Knowledge and cooperation of her father, and you know, there's
8:30
Speaker 4: some indications that that may have.
8:33
Speaker 6: Actually been true.
8:35
Speaker 4: Of course we'll never know. For Shore, now, she was
8:38
Speaker 4: a troubled young woman.
8:39
Speaker 1: As things developed, you initially were not suspects, but then
8:44
Speaker 1: at some point you decided to make a getaway. And
8:48
Speaker 1: this is back in the days when for people don't
8:51
Speaker 1: remember in the eighties, you could sort of travel the
8:52
Speaker 1: world under a different name and it wasn't so tightly
8:56
Speaker 1: monitored or regulated, and so you guys went around the
8:58
Speaker 1: world and ultimately ended up in England. That's when things
9:02
Speaker 1: began to go wrong, right, because you were ultimately arrested
9:04
Speaker 1: for passing bad checks. And then we get to the
9:07
Speaker 1: point where the false confessions come in, or your false confession.
9:12
Speaker 4: So the police took both Elizabeth and me back from
9:16
Speaker 4: the jails to the police station and they actually wrote
9:21
Speaker 4: into the police station love book that I was to
9:24
Speaker 4: be held in Kaninakado. In other words, I was to
9:27
Speaker 4: be isolated from the outside world and not given access
9:31
Speaker 4: to my lawyer.
9:32
Speaker 5: And that's exactly what they did.
9:34
Speaker 4: For four days. They interrogated me four days, many many hours,
9:40
Speaker 4: at dozens and dozens and dozens of hours. And then finally,
9:43
Speaker 4: on the fourth day, I decided to keep my promise
9:48
Speaker 4: to Elizabeth that I'd made fifteen months earlier, and I
9:52
Speaker 4: decided to take the blame for what she did. And
9:57
Speaker 4: that's what I did. I told them this story that
10:00
Speaker 4: she and I had cooked up. And of course, that
10:03
Speaker 4: false confession contained many mistakes that the real pillar would
10:09
Speaker 4: not have made. I described the clothing of one victim incorrectly,
10:16
Speaker 4: and I placed the other victim in the wrong room,
10:19
Speaker 4: And there were numerous mistakes like that which you should
10:24
Speaker 4: have learned the police to the fact that I might
10:28
Speaker 4: not be telling the truth. In addition to that, of course,
10:32
Speaker 4: at that time, the police who were interrogating me were
10:37
Speaker 4: in possession of an FBI crime scene profile by one
10:42
Speaker 4: of the people invented crime scene profiling, one of the
10:47
Speaker 4: leading special agents, and that profile said that the crime
10:52
Speaker 4: had been committed by a woman in a close relationship
10:56
Speaker 4: to the victims, and of course I was a man,
10:59
Speaker 4: and I didn't know that they did at the one
11:01
Speaker 4: time for twenty minutes, so they should have known that
11:05
Speaker 4: the story I was telling them was not true. And then,
11:09
Speaker 4: of course the other thing that happened is that just
11:12
Speaker 4: a couple of hours after I told the police that
11:15
Speaker 4: I did it, Elizabeth told the police that he did it.
11:20
Speaker 4: She said, I did it myself. I got off on it.
11:27
Speaker 4: I did it myself. I got off on it. But
11:30
Speaker 4: by that stage the police had decided that I was
11:33
Speaker 4: the guilty one, so they had actually let her withdraw
11:36
Speaker 4: that confession, which is hilarious in a way because they
11:42
Speaker 4: found hosting the Prince at the crime scene and not mine.
11:46
Speaker 4: And you know, it's quite incredible that they let her
11:53
Speaker 4: with god that confession, but they did, and so they
11:56
Speaker 4: ended up charging me with being the and they talked
12:01
Speaker 4: being an accomplice, and in nineteen ninety they put me
12:05
Speaker 4: on trial and convicted me of something that I did
12:09
Speaker 4: not do.
12:09
Speaker 1: And I do want to bring John and Chip into
12:13
Speaker 1: the conversation too, just to talk about this scenario that
12:17
Speaker 1: took place in England and the immediate aftermath of it. John,
12:21
Speaker 1: you were a criminal defense lawyer in your younger years.
12:25
Speaker 8: Yeah, it goes back to a confession, false confession. There's
12:29
Speaker 8: no other proof to convict the ends of the murder,
12:33
Speaker 8: so all they have is a false confession. And with
12:35
Speaker 8: any false confession case, what you would hope that the
12:39
Speaker 8: authorities do is once they managed to extract the confession
12:44
Speaker 8: and whatever tactics they used to do that is that
12:47
Speaker 8: they will match it up to the physical evidence to
12:49
Speaker 8: see if it in fact matches. In false confessions virtually
12:54
Speaker 8: never match up because there are too many details specifics
12:58
Speaker 8: in the murder, the method of murder, the place, the blood,
13:02
Speaker 8: the blood splatter, the clothing, the room, whatever, there's a
13:05
Speaker 8: whole fingerprints, footprints, and there's a long list of items
13:09
Speaker 8: that you know. Police go through any investigation, and with
13:13
Speaker 8: a false confession, it's usually fairly simple to realize once
13:18
Speaker 8: you start matching the confession given by somebody who wasn't there,
13:22
Speaker 8: it's impossible for them to remember all the details that
13:25
Speaker 8: the real killer would actually know, where he left the bodies,
13:28
Speaker 8: how he killed them. Well you know who did what,
13:31
Speaker 8: what was on the kitchen table, what was knocked over,
13:33
Speaker 8: what was spilt? These are all you know. It's fairly
13:35
Speaker 8: common common sense, and in Yen's case, you know, there
13:39
Speaker 8: were so many discrepancies between his confession and the actual
13:43
Speaker 8: physical crime scene. You just want to scream and say,
13:47
Speaker 8: why didn't somebody put these together and match them up.
13:51
Speaker 8: And what frustrates me is when you get to trial
13:54
Speaker 8: and you have what you think should be a competent
13:57
Speaker 8: defense lawyer who cannot walk through the confession step, bust
14:02
Speaker 8: up bus step and show the discrepanies between the confession
14:06
Speaker 8: and the actual crom scene. I'm not sure if this
14:08
Speaker 8: was done or attempted in Yen's case, but it certainly
14:11
Speaker 8: was not effective. And so that's what we always start
14:16
Speaker 8: in a false confession case is let's match it up
14:19
Speaker 8: with the proof, and it never matches up.
14:21
Speaker 1: It never does. And this was a crazy case because,
14:23
Speaker 1: on top of all the other factors that led to
14:25
Speaker 1: his wrongful conviction, I think there was an inherent bias.
14:29
Speaker 1: I can't prove this because of the fact that it
14:31
Speaker 1: was Bedford County, which ironically is the county that lost
14:35
Speaker 1: more soldiers in World War Two to the Germans per
14:37
Speaker 1: capital than anywhere else in the United States. It's why
14:39
Speaker 1: the World War Two memorial is there and so I
14:42
Speaker 1: think that there's at least an argument that the odds
14:44
Speaker 1: would stacked against the ends. From the beginning, I want
14:47
Speaker 1: to bring Sheriff Harding into the conversation. Sheriff Harding, We've
14:51
Speaker 1: been in law enforcement for several decades, four decades, right,
14:54
Speaker 1: I mean, his resume is nuts when you look at
14:57
Speaker 1: the number of accreditations he has and the number of
15:00
Speaker 1: awards he's won, and he's one of the most accomplished
15:04
Speaker 1: people in law enforcement the United States. And you've dived
15:07
Speaker 1: into this case with all guns blazing, so to speak,
15:09
Speaker 1: and you've examined this evidence eighteen ways till Sunday. Is
15:14
Speaker 1: it theoretically possible that Ian's committed this crime?
15:17
Speaker 2: Is it possible?
15:18
Speaker 9: I mean he could have been dropped down with us
15:19
Speaker 9: from a spaceship and done it. But is it logical
15:23
Speaker 9: he was there when these murders occurred? Extremely unlikely he
15:27
Speaker 9: was there. There's nothing that puts him there other than
15:29
Speaker 9: this false confession. And as John was saying earlier, the
15:33
Speaker 9: confession didn't match the crime scene when you look at it.
15:36
Speaker 9: I mean there was some huge discrepancies.
15:38
Speaker 2: That weren't followed up.
15:40
Speaker 9: You had a young investigator, his first homicide case she'd
15:43
Speaker 9: ever investigated, and I'm reading a transcript going, you got
15:47
Speaker 9: to be kidneyed. You didn't do any follow up. Plus
15:49
Speaker 9: he didn't tape the confession. So when he gets to court,
15:52
Speaker 9: very skillfully, the prosecutor only asked questions that were consistent
15:58
Speaker 9: with the crime scene in the event and omitted the inconsistencies.
16:03
Speaker 9: And as John was pouring out, he had a very
16:05
Speaker 9: very ineffective defense attorney that didn't bring that to the
16:08
Speaker 9: attention of the jury.
16:09
Speaker 4: As far as details that corroborate the confession, at the
16:15
Speaker 4: time of trial, the prosecutor pointed out to the jury
16:21
Speaker 4: twenty six times that the police.
16:25
Speaker 5: Found some O type blood at the crime scene, and
16:30
Speaker 5: that I.
16:31
Speaker 4: Was the only person involved in the case who had
16:35
Speaker 4: Type old blood. The victims did not have TYPEO blood,
16:38
Speaker 4: and my girlfriend did.
16:39
Speaker 5: Not have type of blood.
16:41
Speaker 4: The only person involved in the case was type old
16:44
Speaker 4: blood was me, is what the prosecutor told the jury
16:47
Speaker 4: twenty six times.
16:49
Speaker 10: And it would.
16:50
Speaker 4: Take another two and a half decades to find out
16:54
Speaker 4: through DNA testing that indeed that was type of blood
16:59
Speaker 4: that was left by somebody else. So the fact that
17:03
Speaker 4: seemed to corroborate the concession at the time of the
17:06
Speaker 4: trial is now shown to.
17:09
Speaker 6: Actually prove the confession.
17:11
Speaker 1: You could talk more about that, Sheriff Harding, what percentage
17:15
Speaker 1: of the population has this type of blood? I think
17:17
Speaker 1: it's about forty five percent, isn't it. It's pretty high, right,
17:19
Speaker 1: So I mean that really is I mean, it's a
17:22
Speaker 1: ridiculous thing to try to pin anything on, but yet
17:24
Speaker 1: the prosecutor mentioned it twenty sixth time. It's also worth
17:27
Speaker 1: mentioning that Yens's lead trial lawyer was disbarred a few
17:31
Speaker 1: years after your wrongful conviction, and he was disbarred because
17:34
Speaker 1: of mental illness. Drugs were a factor in all of this,
17:37
Speaker 1: and it was shown that he was suffering from this
17:41
Speaker 1: during the time of your trial. So it's just another
17:45
Speaker 1: important thing to recognize. This is a nightmare that no
17:48
Speaker 1: one can imagine living through. You had been in jail
17:52
Speaker 1: in England for quite some time before you even came
17:54
Speaker 1: to trial. You had nothing in your life experience that
17:56
Speaker 1: would prepare you for any of this, and now here
18:00
Speaker 1: you are in the grip of the justice system in Virginia.
18:05
Speaker 1: It's sort of an arch villain, right And what was
18:09
Speaker 1: this like for you to go through this.
18:12
Speaker 4: At that stage in nineteen ninety, I had already been
18:15
Speaker 4: in prison for four years, fighting expeditions from England to
18:20
Speaker 4: the United States. For most of those four years, I
18:24
Speaker 4: was convinced that all my lawyers were convinced and everybody
18:27
Speaker 4: thought that I would definitely be sentenced to death. So
18:32
Speaker 4: I spent four years in prison in effect psychologically on
18:36
Speaker 4: death row. Everybody, including my own team, told me that
18:41
Speaker 4: I had no chance of avoiding the electric too, and
18:45
Speaker 4: then at the last minute that was avoided. We went
18:48
Speaker 4: an appeal as the European for the Human Rights and
18:50
Speaker 4: I was brought back to America. And that sort of
18:54
Speaker 4: thing has an effect on you psychologically, living in prison
18:58
Speaker 4: for four years, believing that you're gonna die, put increasingly
19:04
Speaker 4: in the electric two and I got brought back to Virginia.
19:09
Speaker 4: Everybody hated me, everybody was convinced I was guilty, and
19:13
Speaker 4: it was really scary, and I did not handle it well.
19:17
Speaker 4: I did not handle it well.
19:19
Speaker 6: But again you.
19:21
Speaker 4: Have to put this against the background of my having
19:23
Speaker 4: just spent three years under comminent breadth of death, then
19:27
Speaker 4: coming into the new atmosphere and having to see Elizabeth Haysen,
19:32
Speaker 4: a woman that that sacrificed myself for get up, understand,
19:38
Speaker 4: and told you of herself and tell all these lies
19:41
Speaker 4: to put me away in prison. And when I say
19:44
Speaker 4: that she toljured herself, that's not just the claim I make.
19:48
Speaker 4: Twenty six years later she actually admitted that in a
19:53
Speaker 4: newspaper interview. She admitted that she toatured herself at that trial.
19:57
Speaker 4: But at that time nobody knew that, and nobody cared.
20:01
Speaker 4: They just wanted the witness at mean, and she did
20:05
Speaker 4: that job, she me, and that and my own confession
20:12
Speaker 4: and the type of blood that's what did me in.
20:16
Speaker 1: Then the sock print, of course, was a ridiculous piece
20:18
Speaker 1: of evidence that no serious person should have ever even
20:22
Speaker 1: it shouldn't been allowed in court, and it shouldn't have
20:24
Speaker 1: been in the way that was done was very devious
20:27
Speaker 1: and tariff harding. I want to talk to you because
20:29
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me that you know, YenS has assembled
20:31
Speaker 1: this remarkable team and it's a great credit to him.
20:34
Speaker 1: And you're an interesting character in this because you're a
20:37
Speaker 1: conservative guy or a guy who's obviously law and order guy,
20:41
Speaker 1: and yet you have devoted yourself selflessly and spent time
20:44
Speaker 1: that you could have been doing anything else to hundreds
20:48
Speaker 1: of hours to this case. So can you talk about that,
20:51
Speaker 1: and then can you talk about the actual forensic evidence?
20:55
Speaker 11: Right?
20:55
Speaker 9: Well, Hiss attorney Stephen Rosenfield asked me to take a
20:58
Speaker 9: look at part of the pardon petition to see if
21:00
Speaker 9: I could find a way to strengthen it or to
21:01
Speaker 9: see if he's miss missed.
21:02
Speaker 2: Something in it.
21:04
Speaker 9: And I told Steve at the beginning, I felt like
21:06
Speaker 9: Ems was guilty based on everything I'd seen. I know
21:09
Speaker 9: Governor Kane had tried to send him back to Germany.
21:11
Speaker 9: I was opposed to that because I felt like he
21:14
Speaker 9: was guilty. He shouldn't have been given any special consideration
21:18
Speaker 9: just because he was a German. But so Steve gave
21:20
Speaker 9: me the case, said, won't take but a couple of hours. Well,
21:22
Speaker 9: I ended up taking a bunch of stuff home at night.
21:24
Speaker 9: My wife thought I lost my mind because I spent
21:26
Speaker 9: basically the whole weekend the dining room table covered with
21:30
Speaker 9: material that Steve gave me. I said, oh my god,
21:32
Speaker 9: this is nothing like what was represented. And in conclusion,
21:37
Speaker 9: I ended up writing a nineteen page letter to the
21:39
Speaker 9: governor breaking down the closing arguments of the case. You know,
21:41
Speaker 9: it's the strength of the government's case, last bite at
21:45
Speaker 9: the Apple, and I.
21:46
Speaker 2: Broke that down.
21:47
Speaker 9: And then after that was published, I had another investigator
21:50
Speaker 9: to work with me for twenty five years, said, let
21:52
Speaker 9: me help form an FBI agent that I know that
21:55
Speaker 9: I worked another case with jumped in and one of
21:58
Speaker 9: the original investment bedroom investigator said he felt like Yen's
22:01
Speaker 9: had been railroaded and was innocent also. So the four
22:04
Speaker 9: of us have been working in collectively, we've given a
22:07
Speaker 9: couple thousand hours. And you want to talk briefly about
22:10
Speaker 9: to forensics. The old blood was very powerful, as was mentioned,
22:15
Speaker 9: and I will say if I was on that jury,
22:17
Speaker 9: I would have convicted him based on it the way
22:20
Speaker 9: the evidence was represented so skillfully by the prosecutor. The
22:24
Speaker 9: old blood now we know absolutely no one can test
22:26
Speaker 9: the fact that it's not inserting. He's not been detected
22:29
Speaker 9: in the crime scene. But two other males, one with
22:32
Speaker 9: ad blood and one with old blood, had been detected
22:35
Speaker 9: in the crime scene and we have not identified those people.
22:38
Speaker 9: In my opinion, Bedford County should consider having an open
22:40
Speaker 9: homicide investigation. Then you look at the next piece of
22:44
Speaker 9: evidence that was pretty powerful.
22:46
Speaker 2: The Commonwealth.
22:49
Speaker 9: Originally got a certificate of analysis from the State Bureau
22:52
Speaker 9: Forensics saying that the shoe in sox size was consistent
22:55
Speaker 9: with a six and a half to seven and a
22:57
Speaker 9: half woman shoe a man five or six. Well, they
23:01
Speaker 9: originally had and this just blew my mind. They originally
23:03
Speaker 9: had a small female as a prime suspect in this thing.
23:08
Speaker 9: And the prosecutor wrote a letter and we got a
23:09
Speaker 9: copy of it attached with a draft affid David saying
23:13
Speaker 9: that he wanted this woman's blood, finger prints and shoe
23:15
Speaker 9: impressions because her shoe was consistent with what was in
23:19
Speaker 9: the crime scene. Now you turn around and go to trial,
23:22
Speaker 9: you don't hear anything. The defense attorney brings nothing up.
23:25
Speaker 9: They bring in a non qualified individual to testify. He
23:29
Speaker 9: did a what we like to refer to as a
23:31
Speaker 9: magic trick, created an overlay of an impression of Yen's
23:36
Speaker 9: foot and said it basically fits like a.
23:38
Speaker 2: Glove, reminds you of oja.
23:40
Speaker 9: And he was even instructed he could not testify as
23:42
Speaker 9: an expert. But when you look at the closing arguments
23:45
Speaker 9: of the prosecutor, he says he can.
23:46
Speaker 2: Only fit one man.
23:48
Speaker 9: One man in the world could fit and he points
23:50
Speaker 9: at yensuring and we know that's hooplaw, that's junk evidence.
23:54
Speaker 9: And the same man that put this on in front
23:57
Speaker 9: of the jury, Robert Halett, did the same thing in
24:00
Speaker 9: another case where a man was given the death penalty,
24:03
Speaker 9: and thank god, it took a few years. He did
24:05
Speaker 9: not get executed. DNA proved he absolutely didn't do it.
24:08
Speaker 9: So here you have the same junk science being used again.
24:12
Speaker 9: There was a jura that gave an affidavit to the
24:15
Speaker 9: attorneys that said it was tied six' six in the jury.
24:18
Speaker 9: Room they wanted to take a look at the sock
24:21
Speaker 9: and shoe evidence again and he said that's what turned the.
24:23
Speaker 2: Tide and we know now that's. Ludicrous there are really two.
24:26
Speaker 9: Parts you got a false confession and you also have
24:29
Speaker 9: a false. Alibi you've Got elizabeth whose claims she stayed
24:34
Speaker 9: at the hotel room and When yen's came. Back she,
24:36
Speaker 9: Said YenS comes back that night after midnight and a
24:40
Speaker 9: sheet covered in blood from head to toe in the rental,
24:43
Speaker 9: vehicle And YenS asked her to clean it up with coca.
24:46
Speaker 9: Cola yet that vehicle was tested with Luminol And i've
24:50
Speaker 9: never had a case where blood had been, present Even
24:52
Speaker 9: bleach had got it all, out no indication of any
24:55
Speaker 9: blood at, all and was testimony from the folks that
24:57
Speaker 9: the rental agency that the car was an amaculate, condition
25:00
Speaker 9: no signs of Any coca.
25:01
Speaker 2: Cola we have since.
25:03
Speaker 9: Learned and digging in the little limited, information we can
25:06
Speaker 9: see that there was actually blood found in the trap
25:10
Speaker 9: of the shower of the master, bedroom and that shower
25:13
Speaker 9: wall illuminated like fourth Of. July so it gives us
25:16
Speaker 9: impression as, investigators at least one of the participants in
25:20
Speaker 9: this homicide took a, Shower so why would he be
25:22
Speaker 9: covered in blood from head to. Toe it's, Impossible Sheriff.
25:25
Speaker 1: Harting on top of all the other, evidence AND fbi
25:28
Speaker 1: agents Like Ed salzbach who came, forward and others to
25:31
Speaker 1: say that there had been evidence that had been hidden
25:34
Speaker 1: or not turned, over not disclosed in the way that
25:37
Speaker 1: the law mandates that it must. Be there's also in
25:41
Speaker 1: chapter eighteen of the, book a far far better. Thing
25:45
Speaker 1: there's the story of the car in the woods, right
25:47
Speaker 1: which would, again if you would think that this alone
25:50
Speaker 1: would be enough to Send yen's, home you, know And
25:54
Speaker 1: i'm going to quote from the book.
25:55
Speaker 2: Again you.
25:57
Speaker 1: Know in twenty, Eleven Tony, buchanan the retiredner of A
26:00
Speaker 1: lynchburg area auto transmission, shop said that three to five
26:03
Speaker 1: months after the murders in nineteen eighty, five a car
26:05
Speaker 1: was towed into his shop for. Repairs it's undercarriage matted
26:08
Speaker 1: with grass and, mud as if it had been sitting
26:10
Speaker 1: in the woods for a. While the tow truck driver
26:12
Speaker 1: Told buchanan the two Door chevrolet belonged to quote some college.
26:16
Speaker 1: Kids and here's the important. Part he said in this
26:18
Speaker 1: swarm statement that when he looked, inside he saw that
26:20
Speaker 1: the floorboard on the driver's side was quote full of dry.
26:23
Speaker 1: Blood beside the console between the front, seats also covered
26:26
Speaker 1: in dried blood was a single edged hunting type, knife
26:29
Speaker 1: the same type that was used to kill The. Haysums
26:32
Speaker 1: Now i'm sitting, Here i've got chills just reading. That
26:35
Speaker 1: and you, know he this same guy testified or swore
26:39
Speaker 1: and affidated that the ends was not one of the
26:41
Speaker 1: people who returned the. Car elizabeth was one and somebody
26:44
Speaker 1: else was the. Other but yet here we go.
26:46
Speaker 9: Again, yeah he, claimed it's just a, shame so much
26:48
Speaker 9: time has. Passed he claimed that he called and spoke
26:50
Speaker 9: To Ricky, gardner who was the lead investigator and now
26:53
Speaker 9: chief deputy In, bedford and told him about. This Gardner
26:56
Speaker 9: denazat says it didn't, happen so so much time has.
27:00
Speaker 9: Passed some of the investigators did work that, lead and
27:03
Speaker 9: we kind of ran it out because time was not
27:06
Speaker 9: on our. Side we tried to find any, documentation material
27:10
Speaker 9: checks and all that kind of. Stuff the banks just
27:12
Speaker 9: don't have it from back in nineteen eighty. Five but
27:15
Speaker 9: if they'd been followed up on properly at the, time same,
27:18
Speaker 9: way if they had sent investigators to the hotel they'd stayed,
27:21
Speaker 9: at it had cleared it up right away That ens was.
27:23
Speaker 2: There she.
27:24
Speaker 9: Wasn't it was his story of what he purchased was
27:27
Speaker 9: consistent with the hotel bill which she said she purchased
27:30
Speaker 9: when she stayed there was very inconsistent way over with.
27:33
Speaker 2: The bill showed in.
27:34
Speaker 9: It and there were three or four more things That
27:37
Speaker 9: elizabeth says that occurred we can disprove with her. Alibi
27:41
Speaker 9: but the bottom line that most frustrating for me is
27:46
Speaker 9: everything that has come out of that woman's mouth is
27:49
Speaker 9: provable that she's lying where it's highly suspect she's. Lying
27:52
Speaker 9: we've looked very hard and everything At YenS has, said
27:55
Speaker 9: and we have not caught him in a.
27:56
Speaker 2: Line we were.
28:07
Speaker 1: Talking about a case in which a couple was brutally,
28:11
Speaker 1: murdered stabbed multiple, times each of them very bloody crime,
28:15
Speaker 1: scene rich with biological evidence from the actual. Killers in,
28:20
Speaker 1: theory you also had a logical explanation for, this in
28:24
Speaker 1: That elizabeth had said multiple times that she had been
28:27
Speaker 1: sexually abused by her, mother that her father may have
28:31
Speaker 1: been involved in this in some. Way there was a
28:33
Speaker 1: clear motive in that. Sense you had, drugs which no
28:37
Speaker 1: one ever claimed that you were on, drugs but we
28:38
Speaker 1: know that she was doing hard drugs and that she
28:41
Speaker 1: was running with a very nefarious crew back then and
28:44
Speaker 1: would have had access to the type of people who
28:46
Speaker 1: might commit a murder like. This people who knew you back,
28:49
Speaker 1: then including some people for law, enforcement said that it
28:51
Speaker 1: was Even elizabeth, said it was ludicrous to think that
28:53
Speaker 1: you could have committed a brutal crime like this because
28:57
Speaker 1: you're not a physically imposing, guy have had to overpower to.
29:01
Speaker 1: Adults none of it ever made any, sense and there
29:04
Speaker 1: should have. Been it should have been relatively. Simple and
29:06
Speaker 1: now of, course so many people have weighed in on,
29:09
Speaker 1: this Including Chuck, reid one of the original investigators in the,
29:11
Speaker 1: case who has said in emphatic terms that it could
29:15
Speaker 1: not have been, you that he doesn't.
29:16
Speaker 2: Believe it was.
29:17
Speaker 1: You and yet we still find ourselves in this situation
29:21
Speaker 1: where we're still all trying to get you.
29:24
Speaker 4: Out it's been, very very difficult for, me especially over
29:30
Speaker 4: the last two and a half years since The parting
29:33
Speaker 4: petition was submitted based on THE dna. Evidence it's been
29:37
Speaker 4: really difficult for me because for thirty years we thought
29:41
Speaker 4: there was NO dna evidence in this case that could prove,
29:45
Speaker 4: minisence and then after thirty years in, prison it was
29:50
Speaker 4: ACTUALLY i on the, phone worked my, Lawyer Steve, rosensfield
29:55
Speaker 4: flipping through some old forensic. REPORTS i found THE na
30:01
Speaker 4: and you, know that's what the parton petition is based.
30:04
Speaker 4: On years, later we cannot get anybody to act on.
30:09
Speaker 4: It and, that's you, know the thirty years of wishing
30:14
Speaker 4: FOR dna and THEN i finally get THE dna and
30:19
Speaker 4: then nobody is going to listen more accept it or
30:22
Speaker 4: do anything about.
30:23
Speaker 1: It maybe you guys can try to give me some
30:28
Speaker 1: insight as to why this case is such a difficult
30:31
Speaker 1: one to resolve in the face of such overwhelming evidence of.
30:37
Speaker 1: Innocence how do you explain?
30:39
Speaker 8: This i'll touch ON i can't explain, it AND i
30:42
Speaker 8: think you Know jason from your work in the innocence.
30:45
Speaker 8: World it's as frustrating as this, is it's not. Unusual
30:51
Speaker 8: we've had cases before where we have to fight tooth
30:56
Speaker 8: and nail to OBTAIN dna testing for one of our,
31:00
Speaker 8: clients and we get THE dna, testing all the objections
31:02
Speaker 8: of the local prosecutors and local law, enforcement we get
31:07
Speaker 8: THE dna, testing it clears our client slash, inmate, whatever
31:13
Speaker 8: and so he's, Cleared. Okay then it takes a year
31:16
Speaker 8: procedurally to get him. Out oftentimes the prosecutor will, say,
31:22
Speaker 8: WELL i don't really believe THE dna. Results we're going
31:25
Speaker 8: to try you, again and so they bring him back
31:28
Speaker 8: to the local jail where they can keep him forever.
31:31
Speaker 8: Again as frustrating as it, Is i'm ashamed to, say
31:35
Speaker 8: it's not that. Unusual most frustrating for me is the law.
31:39
Speaker 9: Enforcement i'm in law, enforcement AND i Hope i'm respecting law.
31:42
Speaker 9: Enforcement i'm a sitting, sheriff and yet the sitting sheriff
31:44
Speaker 9: In Bedford county refuses to meet with me and even
31:47
Speaker 9: discuss the. Case the lead investigator won't meet with the
31:50
Speaker 9: four of us who've given thousands.
31:52
Speaker 2: Of hours pro bone or we don't have anything in.
31:53
Speaker 9: It we're just looking for. Justice we asked for one
31:55
Speaker 9: hour and he says he doesn't have. Time, however we
31:58
Speaker 9: do have him caught on, videotape say in a few years,
32:00
Speaker 9: ago this happened thirty years, ago he was convicted in.
32:04
Speaker 2: Court why do we need to go any further?
32:06
Speaker 9: Then AND i think that's the, attitude which is it's
32:10
Speaker 9: really shut down from an investigative. Standpoint we've not had
32:13
Speaker 9: access to the investigative files or any further testing Because
32:17
Speaker 9: i'm out of my jurisdiction and getting absolutely no cooperation From.
32:21
Speaker 1: Bedford, yeah they won't even allow you to test THE
32:23
Speaker 1: dna of two guys that we know are in for
32:25
Speaker 1: committing similar crimes in another county In, virginia right. Who
32:29
Speaker 1: we have no idea whether they committed this crime or,
32:31
Speaker 1: not but there's some reason to believe that they.
32:34
Speaker 2: There these two.
32:35
Speaker 11: Guys knife demand multiple times.
32:37
Speaker 9: To death within a few, days and that far from
32:40
Speaker 9: The haysom, residents whether those victims were, located and these two,
32:46
Speaker 9: folks one of them at least was acquord to his
32:49
Speaker 9: background that we've read was involved in heavy drugs in
32:52
Speaker 9: The lynchburg, area as we Believe elizabeth. Was she was
32:55
Speaker 9: a omitted heroin. User AND dna should be in the data.
32:58
Speaker 9: Bank they're both doing life for that. Murder and we simply,
33:01
Speaker 9: asked would you take those profiles compare them to the crime,
33:05
Speaker 9: scene and the state says can't do. It the jurisdiction
33:07
Speaker 9: where they offense. Occurred they have to request.
33:10
Speaker 2: It and to our, knowledge they're not doing, anything.
33:12
Speaker 1: Which is just, remarkable right when you think about the
33:15
Speaker 1: idea that they just refuse to test something that can
33:17
Speaker 1: only prove like one or, another either these guys did
33:20
Speaker 1: it or they. Didn't why wouldn't we want to?
33:21
Speaker 9: Know we want to know from an investigative, standpoint do
33:24
Speaker 9: we want to keep following those two guys as a
33:26
Speaker 9: lead or can they be excluded based on THE dna
33:29
Speaker 9: Very spady would take about three or four minutes.
33:32
Speaker 2: To compare those bar. Codes it's so.
33:33
Speaker 9: Frustrating i'm used to working in my own. Jurisdiction if
33:38
Speaker 9: i want something to. TESTED i Asked glad to do.
33:39
Speaker 2: It they do. It IF i want to search, ONE
33:41
Speaker 2: i get.
33:41
Speaker 9: It IF i have witnesses and we have two or
33:43
Speaker 9: three people that need to be interview in this case
33:45
Speaker 9: that refuse to cooperate, WHATSOEVER i don't have any grandeur
33:49
Speaker 9: authority to service a poena on. Them so IT'S i
33:52
Speaker 9: really feel for The interisti's. PROJECT i see what they go.
33:54
Speaker 9: Through now now That i'm on the other side of the,
33:56
Speaker 9: FENCE i feel like you're operating with both hands tied
33:59
Speaker 9: behind your. Back everything's working against. You so you've got
34:02
Speaker 9: to put a lot more work and effort into it
34:04
Speaker 9: than you really should and try to get to the,
34:06
Speaker 9: truth which we all should, want but apparently we don't
34:09
Speaker 9: all always want the truth and.
34:11
Speaker 1: Justice SOMETHING i want to touch on BEFORE i turn
34:14
Speaker 1: over To john for a, second which is that back
34:16
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight or, nine with the support
34:19
Speaker 1: Of Bishop sullivan and other luminaries both religious and political,
34:24
Speaker 1: Figures Governor kine granted a conditional pard AND i guess
34:28
Speaker 1: who'd say it would have allowed you to go back
34:30
Speaker 1: To germany and then as literally as you were packing your,
34:33
Speaker 1: bags the new governor came In governor, McDonell and he
34:38
Speaker 1: revoked for the first time and then two hundred and
34:40
Speaker 1: thirty four year history Of, virginia he revoked the previous
34:44
Speaker 1: governor's order and decided that you would be kept in.
34:48
Speaker 8: PRISON i think In yan's, case though we are pressing
34:52
Speaker 8: ahead cautiously optimistic that the right people are listening to.
34:58
Speaker 8: Us we are almost sanctimonious in our belief that we
35:02
Speaker 8: are right and we're not gonna, stop slow, down or be.
35:05
Speaker 8: Quiet and you, know we have several avenues. Left it's
35:09
Speaker 8: not hopeless by any. Means we don't view it as.
35:11
Speaker 8: Hopeless we think we can smell.
35:14
Speaker 4: Victory john was just speaking about the multiple avenues. Available
35:20
Speaker 4: most innocence cases have only one real, option and that's a,
35:26
Speaker 4: pardon and that's usually a full parton and that makes
35:29
Speaker 4: it very difficult because somebody has to admit that they
35:32
Speaker 4: made a terrible. Mistake my case is a little bit
35:35
Speaker 4: unusual and that the state actually has thille. Options they
35:39
Speaker 4: have the option of an absolute, pardon which would be
35:42
Speaker 4: to declare my innocence and actually admit what really.
35:46
Speaker 5: Happened which was that this is a wrongful.
35:47
Speaker 4: Conviction but they have twotter. Options they have a conditional,
35:52
Speaker 4: pardon which would be not to Say i'm actually, innocent
35:55
Speaker 4: just to say there's a lot of questions and a
35:56
Speaker 4: lot of, doubts.
35:58
Speaker 5: You can't be.
35:58
Speaker 4: Sure and then there's a third, option and that would be.
36:03
Speaker 4: Tart so one of the mystifying things about my case
36:07
Speaker 4: in comparison to other, cases is that they have a
36:11
Speaker 4: whole smorgus board of options to choose from full pardon
36:15
Speaker 4: or absolutely part conditional pardon and then through and they're
36:20
Speaker 4: choosing not to exercise any of these.
36:22
Speaker 1: OPTIONS i recently met Doctor, phil, who before he became
36:30
Speaker 1: THE tv star that's known In love by, millions had
36:33
Speaker 1: been putting his various degrees in psychology and medicine to
36:36
Speaker 1: good use in his jury, consultancy business courtroom. Sciences Doctor,
36:41
Speaker 1: phil as you, know advocates for the wrongfully. Convicted he's
36:44
Speaker 1: been doing it for a long, time, so as you can,
36:47
Speaker 1: imagine we hit it off and decided to sit down
36:50
Speaker 1: for an. Interview the crazy thing was during that, Interview
36:53
Speaker 1: yen's happened to call, me as he did over the
36:56
Speaker 1: last several, years not. Infrequently when he, called it turned
36:59
Speaker 1: out to be a really powerful meeting of the, minds
37:03
Speaker 1: and we sensed immediately that doctor phil might be able
37:06
Speaker 1: to help him and us work through this parole board
37:10
Speaker 1: stalemate that we've been stuck in for such an interminably long.
37:14
Speaker 12: Time, Peter and you've been in how long?
37:19
Speaker 13: Now thirty three, years six months and thirteen?
37:23
Speaker 12: Days good? Lord what's the stumbling block with the appellate,
37:29
Speaker 12: courts with the people that have the ability to grant?
37:32
Speaker 12: Clemency what do they tell you is the reason you're
37:35
Speaker 12: still in. Jail that's one of the.
37:38
Speaker 10: Problems we're not getting any. Communication the problem is is
37:43
Speaker 10: that from the very, beginning from the nineteen, eighties this
37:48
Speaker 10: was a very high profile, crime so a lot of
37:50
Speaker 10: politicians used it in political campaigns to get themselves elected
37:56
Speaker 10: and re elected basically by beating up on. Me the
38:01
Speaker 10: last instance of that was in late twenty, fifteen so
38:06
Speaker 10: that lasted for twenty nine. Years one politician after another
38:13
Speaker 10: tried to carry the voters favor by saying That jenserring
38:18
Speaker 10: is a. Monster and then after thirty, years THE dna
38:22
Speaker 10: comes out and THE dna shows that the very same
38:27
Speaker 10: blood samples that they use to convict me with at
38:30
Speaker 10: my trial in nineteen ninety once they've BEEN dna tested
38:35
Speaker 10: turned out to be somebody else's, blood not, Mine and
38:39
Speaker 10: everybody In virginia who's been beating up on, me all the,
38:42
Speaker 10: politicians have been beating up on me for all these,
38:44
Speaker 10: decades now looks stupid and it's, very very difficult to
38:49
Speaker 10: admit you've made a, mistake and that appears to be
38:54
Speaker 10: the problem In virginia if they admit That i'm, innocent
39:00
Speaker 10: and they're basically admitting that a long line of politicians
39:05
Speaker 10: going back to the nineteen, eighties which is a get.
39:07
Speaker 1: Wrong that being, said, YES i don't want to leave this.
39:09
Speaker 1: Out we feel like there's light at the very near
39:12
Speaker 1: end of the. Tunnel potentially we won't believe it till
39:14
Speaker 1: we see. It but you, Know John grisham has made
39:17
Speaker 1: this a very personal, cause arguably the most Prominent virginian
39:21
Speaker 1: of these, times and so have so many. Others and
39:25
Speaker 1: The Parole board is actually run By Adrian, bennett who
39:29
Speaker 1: is a you, KNOW i think by anybody's, definition she's
39:31
Speaker 1: a person who believes in. Fairness and now the whole
39:36
Speaker 1: state has gone. Blue so we're post election and we're
39:41
Speaker 1: all hoping That Governor northam is going to do the right,
39:45
Speaker 1: thing and that either the parole board will see clear
39:48
Speaker 1: to Send YenS back To germany to live out his
39:51
Speaker 1: days of making, speeches writing books as he, does contributing to.
39:56
Speaker 1: Society i've made the point again and again that in
39:59
Speaker 1: these thirty three plus years in, prison, yet how many
40:02
Speaker 1: infractions have you?
40:03
Speaker 4: Had?
40:04
Speaker 13: None not, one not a single infraction in thirty three
40:08
Speaker 13: and a half, Years, Maine that's virtually.
40:11
Speaker 12: Impossible you must not go to THE tv room at.
40:13
Speaker 12: NIGHT i work out a.
40:17
Speaker 2: Lot, yeah you, Know.
40:20
Speaker 10: I've been told it's either unique or nearly unique by
40:24
Speaker 10: prison staff. Members but of course you know that's all
40:29
Speaker 10: well and. Good, ultimately what really, matters, though is you
40:33
Speaker 10: KNOW i didn't do. THIS i did not Kill derek
40:37
Speaker 10: And Nancy. HAYSEN i didn't find out about it then sol.
40:40
Speaker 10: Afterwards you, know my only role in this was this
40:44
Speaker 10: terrible mistake of trying to Save elizabeth's life from execution
40:49
Speaker 10: back then in the electric. Chair the key reason to
40:52
Speaker 10: let me go is not BECAUSE i didn't break any prison.
40:55
Speaker 10: Rules the key reason to let me go is BECAUSE
40:58
Speaker 10: i did not do. This and it's not just me saying.
41:01
Speaker 10: It it's THE dna saying. It we have two national
41:05
Speaker 10: experts and a bunch of law enforcement officers who've looked
41:09
Speaker 10: at THE dna and the evidence in this, case and
41:11
Speaker 10: they've all come to the same. Conclusion it wasn't. Me
41:15
Speaker 10: the evidence pointed two other men who have not been.
41:18
Speaker 10: Identified there's blood AND dna from two other men at
41:22
Speaker 10: that crime, scene as well As elizabeth fingerprints and her
41:27
Speaker 10: soide friend of, hers and.
41:29
Speaker 5: Of course she.
41:30
Speaker 10: Said she did.
41:30
Speaker 12: It that's obviously not been. Enough what do you think is?
41:34
Speaker 13: Missing, NO i, MEAN i think in any other state
41:38
Speaker 13: that would have been.
41:39
Speaker 12: Enough if you're not in any other, state you're in this.
41:42
Speaker 12: State what do you think's? Missing political?
41:46
Speaker 10: Courage AND i think now after the election On november,
41:51
Speaker 10: fifth when The democrats took over The General assembly here In,
41:54
Speaker 10: virginia there is no longer any reason for The democratic
41:59
Speaker 10: govern A democratic parole board to fear releasing. Me AND
42:04
Speaker 10: i hope that'll happen. Soon it's been a long. Time
42:09
Speaker 10: my petition has been pending for more than three, years
42:15
Speaker 10: so it's time to make a.
42:16
Speaker 12: Decision, well it's way past time to make a. Decision
42:20
Speaker 12: but CAN i give you a couple of thoughts about?
42:23
Speaker 7: This?
42:24
Speaker 14: Uh.
42:24
Speaker 12: HUH i just say this from having been in the
42:27
Speaker 12: system for a, long long. Time what has to happen
42:30
Speaker 12: is we've got to find a way to give them
42:33
Speaker 12: a face saving way out of, this a face saving
42:38
Speaker 12: way to say yes instead of. No now you're before
42:43
Speaker 12: the pardoning parole, board, right what is the narrative to
42:47
Speaker 12: them where their currency is met in Saying, okay enough's?
42:53
Speaker 12: Enough too much is too? Much this is too. Much
42:56
Speaker 12: we need to turn this man. Loose what is in
42:59
Speaker 12: there that they've not heard? Before because you've got to
43:03
Speaker 12: give these people something to hang their hat on so
43:06
Speaker 12: they can defend it when they're asked questions about, it
43:09
Speaker 12: so there is a public position they can take that's face.
43:12
Speaker 12: Saving this is a high profile, case which is sweet.
43:16
Speaker 12: Poison there's high profile and everybody knows about. It that's
43:19
Speaker 12: the good. News everybody knows about. It that's the bad.
43:21
Speaker 1: News we've gotten to a place, NOW i believe Where
43:25
Speaker 1: republican governors have granted dozens or even hundreds of clemencies and.
43:28
Speaker 1: Pardons President obama and his last Flourish they're granted seventeen
43:33
Speaker 1: hundred and there's not a peep from any. Side there's nobody, Going,
43:37
Speaker 1: oh these crazy people are letting all these. Nobody it's
43:40
Speaker 1: not a thing. ANYMORE i don't think it's even makes you.
43:42
Speaker 1: Know in The ends's, case because it was a high profile,
43:45
Speaker 1: case maybe it makes the news for a day or.
43:47
Speaker 1: Two and let me just.
43:48
Speaker 10: Interrupt it briefly and say that they're locking us up
43:50
Speaker 10: for Count while they're doing, THAT i want to address
43:53
Speaker 10: briefly Doctor phillip's question about a narrative that could be
43:56
Speaker 10: used to change people's. Minds none of the people who
43:59
Speaker 10: are making decision today are in any way responsible for
44:02
Speaker 10: the mistakes that were originally made thirty three years. Ago
44:08
Speaker 10: they're fixing the. Problem and The United states has advanced
44:15
Speaker 10: in those thirty three, years and the issue of wrontal
44:18
Speaker 10: convictions is now much more widely. Understood back, then the
44:23
Speaker 10: idea that somebody in listen might get convicted would seem far.
44:26
Speaker 10: FETCHED i think nowadays it's much more widely. Accepted the
44:30
Speaker 10: other thing is is that there have been some high
44:31
Speaker 10: profile wrongtal convictions here In virginia prior to, mine most
44:35
Speaker 10: recently The norfolk four, case which received national, attention which
44:40
Speaker 10: also involved false confessions AND, dna AND i think that's
44:45
Speaker 10: the narrative THAT i think they can hang their hat
44:48
Speaker 10: on in this particular. Case in this, case all they
44:51
Speaker 10: really had was my false confession and the type of
44:55
Speaker 10: blood at the crime. Scene and the prosecutor told the
44:59
Speaker 10: jury twenty six times that the only person who could
45:03
Speaker 10: have left that type of blood was, answering and he
45:07
Speaker 10: made a mistake because they simply didn't HAVE dna back.
45:11
Speaker 10: Then thirty years, later THEY dna test that type of
45:15
Speaker 10: blood and it turns out it's somebody. Else's it was
45:20
Speaker 10: not possible to know this back. Then they did the
45:25
Speaker 10: best they. Could back in the nineteen eighties and nineteen
45:28
Speaker 10: ninety they did the best they could with the technology they.
45:30
Speaker 10: Had all they had was blood. Typing but now they
45:34
Speaker 10: have new TECHNOLOGY, dna and it turns out that, yes
45:40
Speaker 10: that was type of blood at the crime, scene but
45:43
Speaker 10: it was not my type of. Blood forty three percent
45:47
Speaker 10: of the population Have TYPE o, Blood but THE dna is.
45:50
Speaker 10: Different it's somebody else's. Blood so that's the narrative THAT
45:56
Speaker 10: i would say can swing.
45:57
Speaker 12: This that's pretty damn.
45:59
Speaker 13: Compelling, ultimately every wrongful conviction is about admitting that somebody
46:04
Speaker 13: screwed up big.
46:05
Speaker 10: Time and you, know there's only so far you can
46:09
Speaker 10: help them with.
46:09
Speaker 4: That they're going to.
46:11
Speaker 10: Happen man up and admit. That but the people who
46:17
Speaker 10: are being asked to fix the problem now were not
46:21
Speaker 10: the people who made a mistake back. Then this is
46:24
Speaker 10: a governor who was in college WHEN i was in. College,
46:27
Speaker 10: okay he was a few years ahead of, me but
46:29
Speaker 10: he's not responsible for what happened back. Then he was
46:32
Speaker 10: going to mid school when my life was. Exploding thank
46:37
Speaker 10: you for USING, gtl.
46:44
Speaker 1: And NOW i can share with you some, really really incredible.
46:50
Speaker 1: News the Ends surrey has finally been granted. PAROLE i
46:55
Speaker 1: heard this. NEWS i was on a train To delaware
46:58
Speaker 1: to give a talk with criminals US As reform AND
47:01
Speaker 1: i got a call about five o'clock in the. Afternoon,
47:04
Speaker 1: NOW i had recently done an interview With Rolling stone
47:07
Speaker 1: magazine and at the very end of the, interview the
47:10
Speaker 1: reporter asked, me do you ever? Cry AND i, said, truthfully,
47:14
Speaker 1: no only at the. Movies, Well i'm not ashamed to
47:18
Speaker 1: tell you now THAT i didn't make it through that
47:21
Speaker 1: phone call without breaking. Down and it's funny BECAUSE i
47:24
Speaker 1: called the sheriff not too. Long at. FIRST i Called
47:27
Speaker 1: Amanda knox And amanda has course has done work on
47:31
Speaker 1: behalf Of yen's for quite a while now and did
47:35
Speaker 1: a whole season of her Podcast The Truth About True
47:38
Speaker 1: crime on The Ensuring. Case AND i Called amanda and
47:42
Speaker 1: we cried, together all.
47:45
Speaker 7: YEAH i, Mean yen's is such a special, person AND
47:49
Speaker 7: i mean every you, know everyone who's innocent deserves to
47:53
Speaker 7: get out as soon as. Possible it's just like. THIS i,
47:55
Speaker 7: Mean i've just been on the other you, know end
47:58
Speaker 7: of those line again talking about the day that he
48:01
Speaker 7: gets out and like knowing, that LIKE i know what
48:04
Speaker 7: it feels like to like fantasize about that day and
48:07
Speaker 7: not knowing if it's going to. Happen AND i didn't
48:09
Speaker 7: know what was gonna happen for. Him well and now
48:18
Speaker 7: and now you, know he has asked me, to you,
48:21
Speaker 7: know be his big, sister which is amazing Because i'm
48:24
Speaker 7: way younger than, him but he's so, good Like i'm
48:27
Speaker 7: gonna need you to be my big sister and help
48:29
Speaker 7: walk me through this like process of being a free.
48:31
Speaker 7: Person AND i was, like, Dude i'm, there and.
48:34
Speaker 11: NOW i guess that it's really.
48:38
Speaker 7: Exciting, OH i think that he may end up getting you,
48:43
Speaker 7: know pardon better get from the outside of The, yes he
48:51
Speaker 7: has so much more life that he can. Live he
48:54
Speaker 7: can fight the fight from out here now and he
48:56
Speaker 7: can do it with, help and he cannot be. Alone
49:00
Speaker 7: it's it's a big. Difference so, Yeah i'm just so
49:04
Speaker 7: excited for, him getting.
49:06
Speaker 4: Him out of what needed to.
49:07
Speaker 11: HAPPEN i can't remember that of my.
49:10
Speaker 5: Friends oh, yes it's here, Alright.
49:15
Speaker 7: Amanda where are you right? Now i'm actually standing outside
49:19
Speaker 7: of the analytics. CLUB i was about to go jog
49:22
Speaker 7: on the ellistical. One like, NOW i don't even know
49:25
Speaker 7: what to do with. Myself, Okay, well if you get any,
49:30
Speaker 7: news let me.
49:31
Speaker 13: Know he calls, Me.
49:34
Speaker 4: I'll, Call i'll, person.
49:37
Speaker 7: Okay Because i'm so so happy for, him AND i
49:42
Speaker 7: just hope that he's okay right now and and that
49:45
Speaker 7: he's not alone right.
49:46
Speaker 3: Now m.
50:02
Speaker 11: Hm you.
50:04
Speaker 1: Know Rachel ryan is one of the hosts Of Small,
50:07
Speaker 1: Town Big, crime a deep dive serial podcast About ensurring
50:10
Speaker 1: and The hasten, murders including an investigation into the two
50:14
Speaker 1: unknown sources OF dna at the crime. Scene you can
50:17
Speaker 1: find it wherever you get your, podcast but don't wait subscribe.
50:19
Speaker 1: Now she was just about to Interview Chip harding when
50:22
Speaker 1: the news had started trickling into us and the details
50:25
Speaker 1: were still a little. Unclear the sound was rolling on
50:29
Speaker 1: chip as he took my.
50:30
Speaker 2: CALL i don't put my phone over.
50:35
Speaker 11: Here thanks Using, hey jameson you, Know i'm kind of
50:45
Speaker 11: breaking right. NOW i Call. Rosenfield he hadn't heard wrote.
50:48
Speaker 9: It that just sort of thing out you got, that, okay.
50:56
Speaker 11: Oh we, know and being tipped by, both he turned
51:00
Speaker 11: OUT i should be.
51:01
Speaker 9: DEPORTED i guess she's going back To, CANADA i, guess
51:03
Speaker 9: and he'll be going back To germany.
51:04
Speaker 11: And Steve roseenveld and and didn't.
51:06
Speaker 9: Notify we Assume yen's, KNOWS i mean because she SAID
51:11
Speaker 9: i thank you From.
51:11
Speaker 11: YenS SO i guess he's been told kind of odd
51:14
Speaker 11: way to handle something like, This but so he's no
51:17
Speaker 11: keeping his secret right. Now, No, no it's it's the.
51:19
Speaker 11: Idea they associated press as it.
51:21
Speaker 1: Now and it's.
51:22
Speaker 11: Confirmed, yes, Poor oh my, god it's an incredible watch.
51:31
Speaker 10: It i'm A i'm talking to.
51:34
Speaker 1: You, second BECAUSE i spoke To amanda AND i was
51:36
Speaker 1: literally crying like a.
51:38
Speaker 11: Baby, yeah where you gonna get? Me they getting ready
51:41
Speaker 11: to interview me on camera. Soon let me come up
51:42
Speaker 11: to you a little while.
51:48
Speaker 2: You are feeling, Right.
51:56
Speaker 3: I'm.
51:57
Speaker 11: ASTHETIC i, mean what a great thing have.
52:00
Speaker 2: Him he's been locked up for thirty three.
52:02
Speaker 9: Years he's missed his, twenties his, thirties and his, forties
52:06
Speaker 9: so it's.
52:06
Speaker 2: Time it's time to let him.
52:08
Speaker 11: Go.
52:09
Speaker 1: Now she's also been granted.
52:10
Speaker 12: Parole we.
52:11
Speaker 9: UNDERSTAND i understand she has been granted, parole and you,
52:15
Speaker 9: know as a law enforcement, ULSER i don't have any
52:17
Speaker 9: objection to that. Either if she was in fact sexually
52:22
Speaker 9: abused by her, mom you, know if that was the.
52:24
Speaker 9: CASE i think if it had gone that route back
52:27
Speaker 9: when she originally went to, trial this whole thing would
52:29
Speaker 9: have turn that differently than it.
52:30
Speaker 1: DID i, mean this came out in sort of a.
52:33
Speaker 4: STRAND i, mean this was reported by the media before
52:35
Speaker 4: you were.
52:35
Speaker 1: NOTIFIED i, was.
52:36
Speaker 9: YEAH i IMMEDIATELY i got a call from someone in
52:39
Speaker 9: the media asking my, reaction AND i didn't know to,
52:42
Speaker 9: what and he told, me AND i immediately called his primary,
52:46
Speaker 9: Attorney Stephen, rosenfield who's given probably four thousand hours on his,
52:51
Speaker 9: case and he had not. Heard so we were quite
52:53
Speaker 9: shocked that it came out through the media. First but
52:56
Speaker 9: we're not complaining because it appears he's.
52:59
Speaker 4: Gone on home and that IS i, mean you've put
53:02
Speaker 4: years and hours how?
53:04
Speaker 9: Long, Yeah i've probably put me one thousand hours in on.
53:07
Speaker 9: It Now i'm not looking for any. Creditor's tons of
53:10
Speaker 9: people have given the young man hundreds and hundreds and
53:13
Speaker 9: hundreds of, hours what cause they believe in.
53:16
Speaker 5: Assistence, yeah it's an emotional.
53:19
Speaker 11: Thing thank you so.
53:21
Speaker 1: MUCH i am beyond happy to announce That YenS is
53:26
Speaker 1: officially out of ice custody and out of custody, period
53:29
Speaker 1: and he's finally back home in his home country Of,
53:32
Speaker 1: germany which he hasn't seen, or come to think of,
53:35
Speaker 1: it he hasn't even seen. It tree ponder that for
53:38
Speaker 1: a second of any kind since nineteen eighty, Six and
53:42
Speaker 1: just to put some context behind, that the Fucking Berlin
53:44
Speaker 1: wall was up the last time he was, there and
53:46
Speaker 1: we were all smack dab in the middle of the
53:48
Speaker 1: threat of full scale nuclear war between The United states And.
53:50
Speaker 1: Russia but, Anyway YenS is finally able to make the
53:55
Speaker 1: most of his, life AND i know that all of
53:57
Speaker 1: us that have played roles large and small in his
53:59
Speaker 1: newfound freedom can't wait to celebrate with. Him i'll leave
54:02
Speaker 1: you with the remainder of our original, interview and of
54:05
Speaker 1: course the closing, arguments WHICH i must say sounds a
54:08
Speaker 1: hell of a lot better coming from what we now
54:10
Speaker 1: know is a freeman's.
54:11
Speaker 4: MOUTH i had a really really bad trial.
54:15
Speaker 14: Lawyer who was eventually the sparred what you. Mentioned But
54:19
Speaker 14: i've also had really really fantastic losses fighting for, me
54:24
Speaker 14: including the Former Deputy Attorney, General Gale star And, marshall
54:30
Speaker 14: Also gilda and.
54:33
Speaker 4: This was in the, movie and of Course Steve, rosensfield
54:36
Speaker 4: who has suffered with me not in so many, years
54:40
Speaker 4: And Steve.
54:41
Speaker 5: Markett you, know.
54:42
Speaker 4: There's you, know lawyers kept a lot of, blame but
54:46
Speaker 4: there were some really really fantastic human beings working as.
54:50
Speaker 4: Lawyers and then you know the.
54:52
Speaker 5: Staffing i've had.
54:54
Speaker 4: Wonderful people like you And Joan permission And Martin, seen you,
54:59
Speaker 4: know h to people who really have no important and
55:03
Speaker 4: better seems to do with their life than to worry about,
55:06
Speaker 4: me you, know stepping into my life and how it about.
55:09
Speaker 4: Me that's been really really. Encouraging that's given me, hope
55:13
Speaker 4: and it gives me hope to try to hold on
55:17
Speaker 4: a little while longer and see whether this can be
55:21
Speaker 4: resolved in somewhat super fan BEFORE i buy a long
55:24
Speaker 4: eight you know that's that been in here FOR i
55:28
Speaker 4: can tell you exactly eleven, thousand nine hundred and forty five, days,
55:34
Speaker 4: okay eleven. Days i've been in here every two, years
55:41
Speaker 4: eight months and eleven, days and it hasn't been.
55:46
Speaker 7: Easy but that's what guide.
55:50
Speaker 5: Me he's wonderful people behind.
55:52
Speaker 1: Me you do have an extraordinary, team including the leaders
55:56
Speaker 1: Of germany the past and. PRESENT i want to tell
56:01
Speaker 1: the audience there's the Movie killing For love and the
56:04
Speaker 1: book is a far far better thing By Yen starting
56:07
Speaker 1: And Bill, sizemore a far far better. Thing and then
56:12
Speaker 1: this is the part of the show that we've become known.
56:15
Speaker 1: For IT'S i think everyone's favorite part of the.
56:17
Speaker 2: Show it's.
56:18
Speaker 1: Mine and this is a part of the show WHERE
56:21
Speaker 1: i get to thank our. Guests in this, case of
56:25
Speaker 1: Course John, Grisham, john thanks for being. Here And Sheriff,
56:30
Speaker 1: Harding Sheriff Chip, harving Album Wall, accounting of course You
56:33
Speaker 1: yen's thanks for participating in this and sharing your thoughts
56:37
Speaker 1: and experience and educating our. AUDIENCE i want to turn
56:40
Speaker 1: it over to each of, you just for brief closing
56:43
Speaker 1: thoughts and of course we'll end with You yen, Anyway,
56:46
Speaker 1: john final thoughts.
56:48
Speaker 8: As far As, Yeah i've said it, before these wrawful
56:53
Speaker 8: conviction stories are always compelling and tempting from my point
56:57
Speaker 8: of view to right about to tell the fantastic stories
57:02
Speaker 8: as said as they, are but to also hopefully raise.
57:07
Speaker 8: AWARENESS i hope there's a happy. Ending we believe it's
57:10
Speaker 8: gonna be a happy ending because we're all working hard
57:13
Speaker 8: with a game plan to Get yen's out and then
57:17
Speaker 8: getting back To, germany And yenz AND i have this
57:20
Speaker 8: kind of a running gag that one day soon we're
57:23
Speaker 8: going to be drinking a beer together In munich At.
57:25
Speaker 1: Octoberfest i'm coming, too and by the, way he gonna
57:29
Speaker 1: have the same. Deal so you, KNOW i don't want
57:31
Speaker 1: to make you not feel, special but we got the
57:33
Speaker 1: same you paying.
57:34
Speaker 2: For, It, john we're all.
57:35
Speaker 8: Invited we're all invited To.
57:36
Speaker 1: Octoberfest that's, Right Sheriff harding final.
57:39
Speaker 9: Thoughts UNTIL i got involved in this kind of, WORK
57:42
Speaker 9: i always thought that you were found guilty beyond a reasonable.
57:46
Speaker 9: Doubt but it looks like In, america once you're found,
57:49
Speaker 9: guilty to be found.
57:51
Speaker 2: Innocent, oh.
57:52
Speaker 9: Pardon it almost has to be your innocent beyond a
57:55
Speaker 9: shadow of a. Doubt the standard is way too. High
57:59
Speaker 9: it's shameful for me to have fifty years in the
58:02
Speaker 9: justice system and to see the. Pushback not just in this,
58:06
Speaker 9: case But i've read three or four hundred cases from
58:09
Speaker 9: prosecutors in law enforcement that don't man up and step
58:13
Speaker 9: up and admit they make mistakes and seek the. Truth
58:18
Speaker 9: and no one has ever held accountable in the first
58:21
Speaker 9: two hundred and fifty cases That Brandon garrett, examined in
58:25
Speaker 9: many cases prosecutors with hell exculpatory.
58:27
Speaker 2: Evidence so did law.
58:29
Speaker 9: Enforcement and that one single case that one officer ever
58:31
Speaker 9: go to trial or spend one day in.
58:33
Speaker 2: Jail so we can't police.
58:35
Speaker 9: Ourselves how do we anticipate the public's going to have
58:39
Speaker 9: the confidence in us to police?
58:40
Speaker 1: Them and, now saving the best for last yen your final.
58:46
Speaker 11: Thoughts thank.
58:47
Speaker 4: YOU i think it's important for your audience to realize
58:53
Speaker 4: that they're estimated one hundred. Thousand, lastly in The United,
59:01
Speaker 4: states that's a small.
59:04
Speaker 5: City and you Know i'm far.
59:08
Speaker 4: From the only.
59:08
Speaker 6: One i'm, really really so grateful to the three of.
59:13
Speaker 6: You John grisham to partying And jason farm for drawing
59:17
Speaker 6: attention to my.
59:18
Speaker 4: Case but let's not forget the other ninety nine victims
59:26
Speaker 4: of mischaracters of. Justice one of the things THAT i
59:30
Speaker 4: really would hope for is that If i'm ever, RELEASED
59:37
Speaker 4: i can maybe help draw attention to all those other
59:42
Speaker 4: people and work towards systemic changes so that things like
59:47
Speaker 4: this don't happen to other. People in YouTube it's this
59:53
Speaker 4: is you, know something to think. About there's one hundred
59:55
Speaker 4: thousand innocent people in prison in The United.
59:58
Speaker 6: States somebody should be really stablished by.
1:00:02
Speaker 5: That and heal your audience as.
1:00:06
Speaker 4: Well AND i want to thank you for giving this
1:00:09
Speaker 4: opportunity to speak today talk About thank You.
1:00:14
Speaker 1: Yans you have all my. RESPECT i look forward to
1:00:18
Speaker 1: working with you And i'll see you For October. Fest
1:00:29
Speaker 1: don't forget to give us a fantastic. Review wherever you
1:00:32
Speaker 1: get your, podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud
1:00:35
Speaker 1: donor to THE Nisis, project AND i really hope you'll
1:00:38
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
1:00:41
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To Innocence project dot
1:00:45
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd
1:00:48
Speaker 1: like to thank our production Team Connor hall And Kevin.
1:00:51
Speaker 1: Wartis the music in the show is by three TIME
1:00:54
Speaker 1: oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us
1:00:57
Speaker 1: On instagram At Wrongful conviction and On facebook At Wrongful conviction.
1:01:01
Speaker 1: Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flahm is a production Of
1:01:05
Speaker 1: lava For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company number
1:01:09
Speaker 1: one