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Mishlei 25:23 - The Relationship Between Secretive Speech and Anger (Part 2) · The Mishlei Podcast

0:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, day two of Mishlay 2523.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: Roch Tzafon Tcholel Goshim Ufani Nizamim Lashon Saser.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: So northern wind either begets or prevents rain, uh, and slash but an angry face, a concealed or secretive tongue.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: Um so on translation here, a couple of notes uh that I found interesting.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: So um the Mi'iri, I haven't read the whole Miri yet, but he says, first of all, he says, uh ruh tafun t holo goshem.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Who funny all right?
0:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh Yadua, it's known, Shiruch Tsafoni hu haruacha za hamonea esa gashem.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: So it's known that the uh northern wind is a clear wind.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that means.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it means like uh dry, like it's free from moisture, because I don't think it means particles.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Um that's what it is meant in eo, mitzafon zahaav ye esa, that gold comes from the north.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: Meaning it's it's purified or refined like gold.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: Vinikurbulushis, I don't know what French word that is.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: All right, Vim Kane, this is the part I want to get to.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: T'hul el milesh.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: So thol is from the lecture of Halila La Abadacha.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: Now that's by um Yosef's brothers uh denying the charge of theft, I think.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: Um so just in isolation, Khalila La Vadaha.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: How would you normally translate that?
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Uh interesting.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay, meaning like in Hasva Khalila type yeah, that's interesting.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: So um another puzzle that people quote is um uh is an Avram of Vinu talking to Hashem uh in Sodom and Amora.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: I think uh let's see, Khalila is this not the right pair?
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh maybe it's 20.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Nope.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: 21?
2:15
SPEAKER_00: No.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was, hold on.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: I think it's your yeah, that's also uh yeah.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's without it's uh misspelled uh uh sir.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Khalila Lcha.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Right?
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh so Nimanovetsky translates it as it would be a sacrilege for you.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: So um I I I messaged someone in the community who um uh I I must have given I it might have been my son ish year on this, or it might have been a substack article.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: I translated it um Khalila Lcha in this context as like um heaven forfend, you know.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh I think I might have gotten that translation from somewhere.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: And like I know usually people translate like Khalila as like God forbid, you know, but it's weird when you're talking to God to say God forbid.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: So someone in the community messaged me and said that it was not a good translation because Khalila clearly means it would be a desecration of your name, like lush al khilo.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: So this morning I messaged that person back and said, Um, that's definitely a possibility, but the Yiri says like this.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: How does he explain it?
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Umna hageshim vitavsi kehu.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: It prevents the geshim and and uh and causes it to cease.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then the footnote says, So I looked at the um sefrah shirashim, uh, which you can find in all tour by clicking on the word and then going to the Milan Kadim Kadumim, um sorry, Milonim Kadumim and Sefrah Sharashim of the Radak under Halal.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: So it's a huge entry.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: But then he quotes, let me get this a little bit bigger.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: He quotes his father, um, which I think implies that he does not agree with it, but he says, um yeah, so Khalila Li im Attikashem kulam inon khilovhu Tumuras Hakadusha.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: So that is uh that's the khil is the object of Kadusha, but he says, Misa, Ruchtal and Thologash and Pierush Tamnia Hageshem, Fumi inyan Khalila, so it can mean forfend.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: It can mean to prevent or withhold.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, may God not do this, you know.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: So I thought that that was just an interesting thing.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: So I that that would be uh I think we when we were going over this yesterday, we didn't know we we didn't have any explanation for how thol means to prevent.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: We just rely on psychigun.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: So that's just something to know about the word halal.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Um I also wonder if that's related to, I mean, I always assume that for a Koan, a halal has to do with their kidusha.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it means like withholding the kuna.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: I like I don't know, I'm not sure how far people would extend this, meaning.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so our questions were what is the subject of the pasuk?
5:03
SPEAKER_01: What are the mushal and the nimshal?
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Why that use the specific mushal?
5:05
SPEAKER_01: What's the causal direction slash subject and object in the second half in relation to the first half?
5:09
SPEAKER_01: Is it that the um panim zoafim nizamim creates or prevents lush and sacer, or lush and saser prevents or creates a panim zoafim?
5:19
SPEAKER_01: Nizamim, I mean.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh what is the significance of the north wind?
5:22
SPEAKER_01: How does north wind bring on rain?
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh, what are panim nizamim in this context?
5:26
SPEAKER_01: Why ascribe it to the panim as opposed to just saying it causes anger?
5:28
SPEAKER_01: What's the connotation to Kologeshim?
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Isn't rain good?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: If so, are we supposed to assume that panim Nizamim is good?
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Or are we supposed to assume that the Lush and Saser bringing rain is good?
5:36
SPEAKER_01: If so, what is Sadiqon hold?
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Rolls that means preventing.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: What are the denotation or connotation of Lush and Sacer?
5:41
SPEAKER_01: Is it just private speech, or is it like slanderous negative speech, um uh, you know, discreet speech?
5:49
SPEAKER_01: What is being spoken about?
5:50
SPEAKER_01: Who's the audience, the would-be speaker or the person spoken about, or the listener?
5:54
SPEAKER_01: What specifically about Lushan Cesare causes the zaam?
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Is it the content or the saucer quality or the combo?
6:00
SPEAKER_01: And what's the practical application?
6:01
SPEAKER_01: So we first said from Isaac that if someone is exhibiting an angry face, that's gonna generate private talk.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the we said that that could be for several reasons, or it could be bad for several reasons, also, but people are gonna be speculating, people are not gonna want to upset the person.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: So I think the closest interpretation I found to that, if I'm remembering correctly, is the Hoil Moshe, not on Breshis.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Hoil Moshe here, who said, so he says it means to give rise to alos, so in a group of friends, Ish Madabra Baseir La Reehu, if uh one person speaks uh privately to his fellow, oh no, sorry, this is the this is all right, it's related.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: It will give rise to suspicion in other people's hearts.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: Um Shema Sipirlo Big Nusam, maybe he's speaking uh, you know, about his degradation.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is not Isaac.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, why did I highlight this?
7:01
SPEAKER_01: I think because it's a good interpretation, right?
7:03
SPEAKER_01: In other words, um anytime, you know, there are times when you do need to speak privately, um, but you should be aware that if people see you speaking privately, it will give rise to speculation, and that could cause Hashad.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: And the Hashad itself could be bad just because people are gonna make assumptions, or people will assume it's bad.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Like a classic example is uh, you know, a kid gets called to the office in the middle of class.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: Everyone always assumes it's bad, you know?
7:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, or someone gets called to the nurse's office sometimes.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know, like like it's so, you know, like this is I I think I like this interpretation because it's the most neutral, and saying that you should just be aware that there's a trade-off.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: Don't think like I think people who make a decision to speak in private in all cases are doing so to avoid a consequence or to try to get an advantage.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: But you should be aware that there is always a trade-off because you're always creating speculation, and uh, and then that can uh give rise to the panim uh uh nizamim, I keep on saying so often.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Panim Nizamim, you know, so I think that's a good interpretation.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: Um okay, but continuing the review, uh Ezra said that if you so just as a north wind is gonna bring on rain, no, sorry, pushes away rain, pushes away rain.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: If you are angry, then you should engage in private talk before you just blow up in public or or castigate the person in public.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's two things it's the privacy and it's the speech, and that will prevent the the angry uh the angry uh face or withhold it.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay, David said that um right that oh maybe this one fits, maybe this is what I was thinking with the Hoyel Moshe, that people will often speak in private because they're afraid of the of the reaction that they'll provoke, but sometimes they'll make a person more angry.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's like Mita.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh Mitsudis David attaches to Lash and Hara, just as Northern Wind gives rise to rain, so too does Lash and Hara when said in secret give rise to anger from the person who's spoken about.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: So we said that the seems obvious, but the the the obvious part is that bad speech is gonna upset someone.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: But the the khiddish is that the secretive manner in which you say it is its own cause of anger.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, because of the cowardice or because of the like now you have to suspect this person of saying secret stuff to everyone.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's um, you know, I think that's another thing.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's the review.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh, if there are no other points, then let's go to who do I want to go to?
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, first I just want to point out Immanuel Horomi.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: This is more of a methodology thing.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: So he says, I'm tavria hageshamim uh so it'll chase it away.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Klomar Tabat Lehu of Tim Nehu uh negated and prevent it.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so actually, this is a new idea, and I like this idea also.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: So he's saying just as the northern wind prevents rain, so too uh a leader, Adon Shofe Melech, can shut off Lush and Hara or Rachilus by putting on an angry face.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's a very common question I've gotten in QAs, especially from high schoolers, about like, you know, what are you supposed to do when people are speaking Lush and Hara?
10:43
SPEAKER_01: So um I personally think that that question stems from a certain type of cowardice.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: Stop it.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Stop the conversation from happening, you know.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: And there are people who are better and worse at doing this, but again, I think people feel the so fear of the social repercussion.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: But like, I, you know, uh, I'm not saying I have a perfect track record, but I have no problem saying, like, actually, the last time I did this, I think I might have told this story.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: I was at a wedding, and it was the uh the groom's second marriage.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and he was he was, you know, kind of uh uh not older like in age, but like he had gotten married like when he was young, young or whatever.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I was at a table, and some people who I knew, not not like really good friends, but some people I knew, um, leaned over to the person next to her and to me and said, like, did you hear that like three of the siblings aren't coming to didn't come to the wedding?
11:39
SPEAKER_01: And I said, That's Lashin Hara, you should stop talking.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: And she did, you know.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: So, like, um, you know, now there are there again, there's more subtle ways.
11:51
SPEAKER_03: That's a pretty good reaction.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't react.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: No, right.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm saying, like, like it's it's I mean, again, it's like if someone was about to eat pork, you say that's pork, don't eat it, you know, like you know, um like I'm an example of it's like did you hear this?
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know exactly.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: I think it was just yeah, right.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, you know, I I think I I have I'll I'll mention this in in general because I always mention the star when we talk about speaking uh lahnhara, is that uh Johnny and I used to have a system back when we were both living at home that if someone at our shoppers table started talking to La Shinhara, then we would knock over a glass uh and spill it, and then there'd be a whole commotion.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh and then that would usually like stop the uh the conversation.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: And then only once after we cleaned up did the person do it again.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: And I cannot remember.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: I want to say I want to say that we did it again, but I don't know if that's just making up for the sake of the story.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but no, I it's like what I've heard you talk about in the past.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: You've you have said that you spill it again.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: I I I you know, um uh but the so the point here that he's making is that uh I mean it's less than what I'm saying, but like if you're and it's interesting, he puts it in a position of a uh a ruler that I don't know if that's because of the ruch saphon analogy of like it's coming in from above, but he's saying if you make it clear that this is not appropriate to talk about, then it will stop.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: And I think that for teachers in classes, this is especially um uh important because kids will speak Lashnahara in your presence because that's just how they speak.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: And if you put down your foot and make it clear, one thing that I'll do is I don't know if you've ever seen me angry.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: It's extremely frightening, uh, I've been told.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I will, if I ever hear a kid make fun of another kid, in their presence or not, I will rage at them and say, you know, I'll usually put it in terms of of like I don't know why I do this, maybe because this is how I feel.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: I won't put it in objective terms of like I'll say like something to the effect of no one talks about my students this way.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: It's just not done, you know.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Um uh or or something like that.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh I feel like sometimes the personal angle is better.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, Isaac.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I was gonna say about um stopping Lash and Hara.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of times people are concerned about the social ramifications to like to themselves.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: I think even just I I've had success even saying I think that this might like I think this might be Lash and Hara, and then it just made two conversation about what is the what are the Holocaust of Lash and Hara.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
14:31
SPEAKER_02: That's not this possible.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's been awesome.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: So then he says, Umilas to Holo Omedis Bemakum Shnaim, Ratalamer, Ruchum Techolo Geshem, Vapanim Hani Zamim Yholo Lash and Saser, right?
14:42
SPEAKER_01: We we infer this.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Ohyomark mosh ruchats funis tivata geshem Vatimnaehu K uh Kane Lashan Saser Vuhukeshi Daber Hadam Basesir El Hamoshel Viratsehu B Evan Khain Asherhu Hashochid Hashokhad Yivatal Vyimna Hapanim Hanizamim Shi Loshofit Allah.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: Now that sounds like it's advocating bribery, right?
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but so I don't I don't know how he interpreted the Evan Khain posuk, but he's saying that if you um uh speak to the ruler privately, you can stop the ruler's anger.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay, now this is the um this is the methodology point I wanted to give here.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: So though for those who explain to him as it gives rise to Geshem, Yefarshu Hefecha Nachon, so they're explaining it in the opposite of the proper way, the hefecha mits and the opposite of reality.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: So it's known that the north wind is always cold and dry, and its way is always to prevent rain and to negate it.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: That's why we have not even tried to explain to Holel in terms of begetting rain.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: Not that the doors of these Pirushim are closed to us.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what he's saying here, and I've said this a lot when people give ideas in Mishle, is your interpret, your idea is good, but I don't think that that fits the facts, you know, the facts of the mushal or whatever.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: So I've just never seen any of the Mafarshim say that explicitly in this way that like like we could explain it that way, but we're not because the facts don't fit.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: Now, there are obviously Mafarshim who say that the facts do fit.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: In fact, the the I think the most um meteorological interpretation I've seen is the Malbin.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Harufa Tafan Bi Ba'adam Yolid Esageshim.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh no, that's a different one.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, that's interesting.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: In men.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: So uh a north uh a hidden spirit in men.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay, actually, let's look at that separately.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, um, was the Rabag that we read yesterday?
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh, did he say it gives rise to?
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Tivra Gesham Yushalayim, right?
16:51
SPEAKER_01: So I I think you can explain the factual mof locus just based on what people did and didn't know about different regions.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, like that's my Don the Kopsquiz here is that that maybe I don't know where Immanuel Romy lived, presumably Rome, then uh the north wind was not bringing down uh like Mediterranean air, like it is in Ushalayim.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: And so the the air would be different, right?
17:13
SPEAKER_01: That he was saying that it's north of Ushalayim.
17:15
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, you could say that, but uh you might know that also, like suddenly you realize that it's different.
17:19
SPEAKER_04: Or I don't know.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not I'm just I'm not sure.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know if the robot got this from a Gemara or from like travel logs or whatever, yeah.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: Travel blogs, yeah.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so that is the Robot.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Let's look at this Malbum.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: I I didn't notice that when I uh skimmed him.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Um Malbim says Haruchatzafun bottom.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that means the unconscious psyche, right?
17:39
SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: Yoli, that'd be that'd be a good uh good our interpretation of ruchon, right?
17:44
SPEAKER_01: As a guess, I'm kihe Idim ha'oliminha art no malaim ruach aviri kal.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: So the the uh mists that rise up from the land uh fill uh malaim ruach aviri kal.
17:59
SPEAKER_03: What is a bad I don't know, we'll find out it's in Jordan South in South Jordan, so it's not north.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh okay, well let's see.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Um they they fill the wind uh uh the the the ruach aviri call uh they're filled with uh light air.
18:32
SPEAKER_04: What what's being filled with the i i'm not sure what what's going on here uh they go up like you know sometimes when it's misty, yeah, and the rain sort of like the wise it's suspended in the air, yeah, yeah, right, right.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's yata haruah atsafun beadim.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: Maybe this is supposed to be the aidim.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's probably better.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: That's not as fun.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh um top uh tipe hamaim shinaasu kvadim basurharuach lamata vieulagesham.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay, my point is uh the reason why I went here initially is he's clearly holding that this is actually he's trying to explain why it gives rise to rain.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: The hagam sharuch tafun bilti nira, even though you cannot see the north wind, kishinira hagesha neda sibasa.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Once you see the rain, you know that's like what we say like when there's smoke, there's fire, you know kya ruch yelado.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: Um came lush and saser t colal of the tolly topanim nizanim.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: So too lush and saser gives rise to angry faces.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh, or at least in the analogy, just as the storm wind that that is given rise to through Lush and Hara is hidden in the heart, deep in the heart, yukur aide zimas apanim she is ra bifine ha kote if it'll manifest itself in the angry face that is uh uh that the angry person displays.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: What is he saying though?
19:54
SPEAKER_03: Wait, you mean the person who's signaled in part?
19:57
SPEAKER_01: Sounds like he's saying the person uh I guess that makes sense.
20:03
SPEAKER_03: You're signature heart because you're angry.
20:05
SPEAKER_04: I think he's saying just like you don't like to realize the wind.
20:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
20:08
SPEAKER_04: Then once you see the rain, there must have been wind.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:10
SPEAKER_04: I think he's saying, I don't know which is what's the one, there must have been the other.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And is he saying the speaker or the person who was spoken about?
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: All right.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: If we had more time, we'd look at it, but we have to stop at nine.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: So look, I have not yet done the Miri.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh let's see if the Mi'iri gives us something uh uh in the Deref Nister.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: First, interesting, not to accept Lash Nara Urukilos.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Well harchikha may be deba the siksuch al-shamadam.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: And to uh to distance uh someone who brings slander, and I've never seen sixuk here.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh I I get the impression that it means something like suspicion, right?
20:47
SPEAKER_01: It's got sixuk, one of those like a conceptual anomanopias uh uh on a person.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: So it's just like a manual romi, shum deba lapanov.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: So you have to look angry about it.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And then all the implications you shouldn't accept their words.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: So, too.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh sorry, uh, you should not listen to the words of the misnaged.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: This is not like the anti-Hasina Misnaged, this is the anti-Torah Misnaged, uh, who is uh an entier to uh usually kfira, that's how he uses the words misnaged and misis in the Rachilus of false proofs to try to break down the foundations of Torah, Uviprat Hapinos Hatorios, especially the um the foundations of Torah, Asher Ain Yad Hayun Masekasbem, especially the one the foundations of Torah that you cannot prove through philosophy.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: Again, classic Miri here, that but what's interesting here is he's saying that there are like um what do you call it?
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Like there is a category of like rhetoric or sophistry type arguments against Torah.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Sophistry.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh like engaging in philosophical, how do you define sophistry?
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Engaging in philosophical methods.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: Methods, but that are not to find truth or rely on tactics that are not conducive to truth.
22:29
SPEAKER_04: Like a debate.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in in American debate, right?
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Where you can like just assign a position and the people will like make arguments uh against that.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: Those are the people that uh um Socrates was very against the sophist.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: They they like they appear to be philosophers, but they're really like uh not genuine.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, right.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: So what's interesting, it's interesting here is I feel like this this is a category of polemics against religious ideas that you find among certain atheists um or or people who are like uh against the religion.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And he's not telling us why you shouldn't listen, but by implication is that it is gonna get to you, just like Lashanhara and Ruchilis is gonna get to you, uh, even if like you know that it's uh not necessarily reliable.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:12
SPEAKER_04: So how is he reading the pause up?
23:14
unknown: Yeah.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Um so uh Rua Safon.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: Let me just look at the pause up again.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh Rua Safon T Holo Goshem, Upanim Nizaming Lashem Saser.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: And he's saying it prevents.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: So just as the north wind will prevent rain, so too he must be saying that like a correspondingly to the Lajman Saser.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and to uh to these false uh this type of the of rhetoric.
23:48
SPEAKER_04: Meaning don't like be open to it.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: The thing I'm I'm I'm just uh wondering about here is does he mean literally display panumnisamin and then the only part that's figurative is Loshram Sasir, or is he also taking Panam Nizamin?
24:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like an attitude.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:03
SPEAKER_03: Meaning you should be angry towards the heresy so you don't absorb it?
24:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if he's giving you practi the same practical advice, but towards a different uh type of speech, or if panim Nizamim itself is uh is is part of this uh NISTR.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't really give us an explanation there.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean, I think it's a good uh in other words, just to um speak to uh people who are philosophically or rationalistically inclined, I do think that there is a feeling that people have of, well, if they're making an argument, then I I should like, you know, like I should like uh you know either expose myself to it because God must talk to lapicorus, or I should be able to see through the fallacies or whatever.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: You should be aware that there is a danger in these types of arguments.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Um what I'm trying to think about here is I'm saying this half-jokingly, but like it's possible that if you spend enough time around multiverse theorists, you might end up liking the multiverse theory and being attracted to it, you know.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh, you know, um, but because that is the thing, is that a lot of these um uh forms of Khfira, regardless of their intellectual merit, are emotionally attractive at the very least because they erode the foundations of Torah, and part of you wants Torah to not be true.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:18
SPEAKER_04: I think related to that point, Remerzimmer actually gave a shear to look at other areas.
25:23
SPEAKER_04: And one point he made was that in a lot of these deep areas, especially ones where philosophy can't prove, it's very much not based upon logical proofs, based upon intuition.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: But there's intuition.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
25:33
SPEAKER_04: Your emotions get very involved.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:35
SPEAKER_04: So you really can't, you're gonna just think about it and you can't prove either way.
25:38
SPEAKER_04: Right.
25:38
SPEAKER_04: Since you don't want it to be true, you're intuitively gonna think, oh, that can't be.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh, right.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: That's really true.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: And I'll add to that is that we know that there's two types of intuition there's emotional intuition and or imagination-based intuition, and then intellectual intuition.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: It could also screw up your intellectual intuition because they will make compelling points, and that could shift your intellectual intuition in that direction, either in this area or in other areas.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: When, like, let's say, for example, and I'm just I've been going over this in the in the mora, you know, the idea that the universe is eternal reigns supreme for thousands of years.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: And uh, I was giving the example of the Einstein, uh, I don't know enough science to say this over correctly, but like adding the cosmological constant to make it work out because it can't be that the universe is expanding.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: That was like his premise.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: And the question is, was, and he called it the biggest blunder of his life.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Question is, was did that stem from intellectual intuition that for thousands of years since before the birth of science, the universe has been assumed to be uh constant.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: So his mind was primed to reject an expanding universe, or emotionally, the notion of a beginning, a universe with a beginning is something associated with religion, and he was uh influenced by his emotional intuition.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: I think it's two possibilities here.
27:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they're very much in mind though.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, right.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: You can't even the fact that you can't tell it should itself like shows the danger.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Mosha.
27:07
SPEAKER_03: I remember Gamora, where it's like um some rabbi like came back home from like winning a debate.
27:12
SPEAKER_03: Like he would go out and like go some like and debate like having parcels all day.
27:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:17
SPEAKER_03: I mean, he came back.
27:18
SPEAKER_03: The students like started phrasing him and saying, like, good job.
27:21
SPEAKER_03: We can't leave the exact wording distinct he said, but like he said it was like better something really bad happened to me than have to go out and spend time with these people.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: All right, that's that's honest.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh let's see going on here.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh Vyush Mafar Shim Tcholo Kumom Mahiv.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: We have not seen that yet.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Tholo means it causes pain.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: Miloshin Khiel Kyoleda.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: So I always thought Khiel Kyoleda means trembling like a woman giving birth.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: He seems to be learning it as trembling in pain.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's saying same in uh implication for the first half that it it pr it it pains the rain to make it not come.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Ki halo shonos ushalulifami balechaim the domim ol the tsmachim, because you can have uh um um borrowed language or uh what it like metaphorical uh analogical language from animals to uh inanimate things or to plants.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh halokah to beach tahib okay, fine, it gives a bunch of proofs.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Vishmu Farsi Miloshan says, Saser, inyan manera.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: So it could mean gentle speech, like Sadi Gon, V Nikra Kane, Liusa Dibor namuk, the shlobatzak of utsubaku.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: So not like Sadhigon, according to Amram Korah, uh Amram Korach is uh low speech, quiet, not yelling.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so gentle in tone.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: K iluhu Nistar, as if it is private.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: But Amar Shibimane Rach Yashibu Panim Nizamim, Kenyan Mane Rachi Hashivima.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: So it means if you speak gently, then that could chase away anger and angry countenance.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh create, uh Klomar Shuhu Sibas Hagashem, it's the cause of rain.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh Panim Nizamim, Losh and Sasha, Klomar Shaim Sibos, or Lash and Saser, it causes lush and sasha, keep your os, when the the gossiper sees that you believe his words, to the point where you're angry, Yasmid Vakah, that'll make him persist in it.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: Isn't that that's like the opposite?
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Saying like if he sees that he's getting to you, this is not the anger displayed like Imano Harumi, where you're like showing that you are against it.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: This is like he he, you know, he's he's he's getting to you, he's getting a reaction out of you.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: So that would that would be that's a different uh strategy, which I've also used about when people speak in Lush and Hara, is completely not like ignore it and it'll go away, like don't feed the trolls type thing.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, I think sometimes that's the strategy to use is show that they're not it's not working, you know, uh, and uh and ignore them.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: And you gotta know which one to use.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
29:57
SPEAKER_01: Elish Inlo Marshruch Tap and Tsabi Fagetum.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh, same thing.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: He says, Don't say that the uh we it's a good idea, but don't say that the the northern wind causes rain.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Elish Avshar Lios Kane Bumko, what's you doing?
30:07
SPEAKER_01: In some places, oh there you go.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: In some places it does work like that.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, good.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: All right, uh, I gotta what it works like what then?
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh that that yeah, in some places then uh the north wind can cause rain, but he just he says, uh um uh I guess not not here.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Okay, all right.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Good good puzzle.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh another example of a rich uh rich metaphor.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: I I will point out one thing just to think about.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: Rashi does say, uh, this is a funny one.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh Thul Gesham, he says Tivra, Upanimizam Thuloshan Sazra, Lushara Goramshi you Pnehakaj Barko Zumin makes God angry.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: So the question is what do you get out of that idea wise, other than like if you say Loshanara it's gonna make God angry, which I I think Rashi's probably saying something more sophisticated than that.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: All right.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh