Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / Evening With A Legend: William S. Jackson

Transcript

Evening With A Legend: William S. Jackson · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

0:00
Evening With a Legend is a series of presentations exclusive to
0:03
legends of the famous 24 hours of Le Mans giving us an opportunity
0:07
to bring a piece of Le Mans to you.
0:09
By sharing stories and highlights of the big event, you get a chance
0:13
to become part of the Legend of Le Mans with guests from different
0:16
eras of over 100 years of racing.
0:34
Tonight we have an opportunity to bring a piece of Le Mans to you sharing in the
0:38
Legend of Le Mans with guests from different eras of over 100 years of racing.
0:43
And as your host, I'm delighted to introduce 91-year-old William S.
0:48
Jackson, one of the co-founders of the Society of Automotive Historians,
0:52
who isn't just a veteran of motor sports from being drafted during the
0:55
Cold War to racing alongside legends like Carol Shelby and Sterling Moss.
0:59
Bill's journey to LeMans is a tale of grit, ingenuity, and unexpected grace.
1:04
Today we're taking you back to 1958 to a time when racing was raw,
1:08
personal, and deeply intertwined with the world's shifting tides.
1:12
You'll hear how a flunked college career turned into a military path
1:16
that led him to Germany, where a chance friendship with a former
1:19
Lifa pilot changed his view of war.
1:21
Peace and humanity, and you'll ride shotgun as Bill recounts his time
1:25
behind the wheel of a 1935 BMW three 15 restored with reverence and raced with
1:31
heart on the hallowed grounds of Le Mans.
1:33
And with that, I'm your host Kru Chief Erick from the Motoring Podcast Network,
1:36
welcoming everyone to this very special Veteran's Day evening with a legend.
1:41
Alright, bill, so we're gonna talk about your experience at Le Mans.
1:46
A very special experience at Le Mans 1958, right?
1:50
So that's Le Mans retrospective.
1:52
A lot of our members probably don't even know what that is.
1:56
And so to lay that out, it's a precursor to what we know today as the Le Mans Classic.
2:01
So let's talk about your journey.
2:03
Getting to Europe, your road to Le Mans.
2:06
Okay.
2:06
Well you know, it's kind of an interesting story.
2:09
I was a Cold War soldier and not many people know much about what it was like
2:14
being a draftee during the Cold War years.
2:16
And this is a kind of a humorous personal story.
2:20
I'd flunked out of industrial engineering into business management and that
2:25
flunk out of business management.
2:27
'cause I was racing sports cars.
2:28
I was leaving Thursday night and getting back Sunday night
2:31
and that just didn't work well.
2:33
The assistant dean of the College of Business called me in and just
2:37
chewed me up one side and down the other Bill, you're not stupid.
2:41
You're racing those damn cars and you're not applying yourself, and you could
2:45
succeed if you just get away from that.
2:48
And he said, you're outta here now.
2:49
And he said, I'm sure the draft is going to get you pretty soon.
2:52
And he said, but after you're in and out of the army, if you've decided
2:55
what you want to do with your life, I'll get you back into Penn State.
2:59
If you could show me something.
3:01
And as I'm getting ready to go out of his office, I'm thinking, does
3:04
he do this with every student?
3:07
Flunking out?
3:08
Anyway, I, I was drafted roughly, uh, June of, uh, 1957, sent to
3:16
Fort Riley, Kansas as a member of the first Infantry division.
3:19
I was a graduate of Valley Ford's Military Academy, so I wouldn't say
3:24
that basic training was easy, but I already knew how to play the game.
3:27
What that got me is I ended up being named Outstanding trainee of the
3:32
first division for the year of 1957.
3:35
After we had a two week vacation after basic training and came back to start
3:40
advanced infantry training, right.
3:42
My company commander called me in the office and he gave me
3:45
a master sergeant's armband.
3:47
And he said, you are to wear this and on base you are a master sergeant and
3:52
you are assistant platoon leader for the fourth platoon, which was 44 men.
3:57
And I'm just coming out of basic training and I all of a sudden,
4:00
bam, I'm an acting master sergeant with a responsibility for 44 guys.
4:05
We went out on a winter maneuver in December.
4:08
We were supposed to be out for three days.
4:10
What they called in Kansas, a blue northerner blew in it, dropped
4:15
to about 20 above with wind.
4:17
They canceled the operation, but they couldn't get us trucks out
4:19
to pick us up till the next day.
4:21
So the company commander says to each of us platoon leaders, you
4:24
take care of your guys tonight and when we'll get outta here tomorrow.
4:28
Well, most of the platoons built a gigantic bonfire and
4:32
gathered around it and cooked their front and froze their rear.
4:36
I took my guys down into a dry stream bed and we dug fire pits into the
4:41
sides of the stream outta the wind.
4:43
I had them put their pup tents up.
4:45
Two pegs high instead of three pegs high.
4:48
So they would cut the wind and as per usual, put dirt around the
4:52
edges so it wouldn't blow away.
4:54
Fill 'em full of buffalo grass and then get their sleeping bags out.
4:59
And I went around and checked every one of 'em to be sure they took their boots
5:02
off where they got into the sleeping bags.
5:04
Well, the first Sergeant comes around, Jackson, what is all this non reg stuff?
5:09
You are not allowed to do this.
5:11
Put those tents up properly and yes, sergeant.
5:14
As soon as he left, I told the guys, I said, just leave everything the way it is.
5:18
Well, the next morning the colonel of the regiment comes around with the
5:22
company commander and the first sergeant.
5:24
They suffered 11% frostbite.
5:26
They came down into to the sunken Stream bed.
5:29
My guys are gathered around the fire pits in the side of the stream
5:33
and, and, uh, they'd all had a good night's sleep and I hadn't lost a man.
5:38
Colonel looks around.
5:39
Says, who's in charge here?
5:41
And the first Sergeant is smiling.
5:43
You know, he says he is.
5:45
So I'm standing there at attention and the colonel says, Sergeant, what is all this?
5:50
Where'd you learn to do this?
5:52
Boy Scout Troop seven Clearfield, Pennsylvania, sir. Got a big grid on
5:56
his face that says, carry on Sergeant.
5:58
And they went away.
5:59
And the first Sergeant is kind of behind him going, credible.
6:06
But, uh, anyway, that was one of the most interesting experiences I had as a platoon
6:11
sergeant right out of basic trading.
6:14
Well, I, when I went over to Germany, of course I was back as a PFC.
6:18
Again, I went over, I think probably been September or
6:21
October or something like that.
6:22
So before you got deployed in Germany, you were racing here in the States?
6:27
Oh yeah.
6:27
My very first event was the Breakneck Hill climb outside of Cumberland, Maryland.
6:32
Because I had just finished my 21 hours of observed practice and were required to
6:36
get your SECA license and they liked you to run two or three hill climbs before
6:41
they cut you loose for road racing.
6:43
So I started racing with a 54 Jag xk, one 20 modified
6:48
Roadster, and it was soft sprung.
6:50
You know, you could bottom out and take out $300 worth of mufflers.
6:54
So I had made a set of straight pipes, came out under the driver's door.
6:58
So, like I say, this is my very first event.
7:00
I'm under the car putting the straight pipes on.
7:03
Somebody starts kicking my foot.
7:05
I look out from underneath and I see the bottom of farmer bib overalls.
7:09
Thought some stupid farmer's going to ask me a bunch of dumb questions.
7:13
So I yelled out from under the car, what the hell do you want?
7:16
And there's silence.
7:18
And then he all got, if Jack, having lived in Texas, I recognized that the accent.
7:23
And I'm thinking, there's this guy from Texas that had
7:26
been racing on the west coast.
7:27
They said it's coming east.
7:28
That races in farmer bi overalls named Carol Shelby.
7:32
So I rolled out from under my car and sure as hell, it's Carol.
7:35
Yes, Mr. Shelby.
7:36
I have a jack.
7:38
He was driving for some millionaire who had bought one of the last front engine
7:42
Ferrari Grand Prix cars and hired Carol to drive it and they was going after the SECA
7:49
unlimited Class Hill Climb Championship.
7:51
So.
7:52
I go with Carol up to the Ferrari pit and Eric sits with a flat left rear
7:57
trier and somebody forgot the jack.
8:01
Anyway, that was the beginning of, of a relationship with Carol 'cause
8:05
he had come east and was running some of the same courses I was
8:09
back up to, to, uh, January 57th.
8:13
Driven for the Morgan Factory team.
8:14
I they read in the spring sprints at Upper Marlborough.
8:17
The AC Bristol Importers had run a big article in the Washington Post.
8:22
That they were coming to Upper Marlborough for the SCCA spring sprints, and they were
8:27
gonna show the locals how it was done.
8:30
So long story short, I beat the top AC Bristol driver for new production
8:35
in the spring sprints at Mar Gra.
8:37
So afterwards, I'm down in the pits, we ru run what you brung, and I'm
8:42
putting a windshield back on and taking the racing screen off and all.
8:46
And these two suits commit coats and ties and they walk up to my Morgan.
8:51
Bag over the hood.
8:52
The guy said, is this belong to you?
8:54
And I said, yes.
8:55
He said, if you can be our top driver with this piece of
8:58
shit, you gotta drive for us.
9:00
How'd you like to go to br?
9:02
Well, ACS plan was to have four cars at Seabring, but they only gave him
9:07
three interest, so I ended up as a relief driver of the other three.
9:11
I'll be honest with you, I never got in the race.
9:13
Mm. I got to practice, you know, I was on a track with Mike
9:17
Hawthorne and Sterling Moss.
9:19
Juan fgi and I mean, but you still had to get your license, right?
9:22
That's where I got my license.
9:24
You had to have an FIA license to run sibr.
9:26
And I had got, you know, real quick, I mean I had about a month and a half.
9:30
I got my FIA license based on my SECA license.
9:34
For a US race you need an international license.
9:36
Yeah, you had to have the international license.
9:37
'cause apparently Sebring was on the international calendar.
9:41
But anyway, fast forward, Sebring, Carol Shelby and Roy
9:44
Salvador, the British driver are driving a Maserati for the fact.
9:48
And they did something 62 laps in and were disqualified.
9:53
So Carol is just walking the pits and he comes over the AC Bristol pit and our
9:59
practice car, which I ended up buying from the factory incidentally for $3,500
10:06
is sitting in the back of the pits.
10:08
And Carol says, bill, would you mind opening that hood and Annette,
10:13
and let me look in that engine bay.
10:14
So I go back and, you know.
10:17
I put the stick in it to hold it up, and he's back there for about
10:21
20 minutes practically climbing into the engine bay in that AC Bristol.
10:25
So I finally, I went back just to see what he's doing, you know, and he, he's
10:29
checking out the front suspension and the steering and everything, and he said,
10:33
man, you could fit a big American V eight in here and you'd really have something.
10:37
This is March, 1957, first Cobra of 64.
10:42
He was thinking about it even then, and of course.
10:46
AC Bristol quit making engines.
10:49
So they're sitting there with that beautiful Roadster with nothing in it.
10:52
And Carol had already been talking to Fort and he brought 'em together
10:56
and, and voila, we had the Cobra.
10:58
But, uh, I was side to company a of the Eighth Infantry Regiment of the eighth
11:04
Infantry Division in Mikes Heim, Germany.
11:08
Our mission, we had pre-planned positions in the folded gap for World War ii.
11:12
It's where the Germans came through, uh, when they attacked France.
11:16
And our mission was if, as we called it, if the balloon never went up, then the
11:20
East Germans and the Russians came across.
11:22
We were to dig in and hold in those pre-planned positions for two hours
11:26
till they got reinforcements up.
11:28
Initially, I was a BAR man, but then when the company commander found out about what
11:33
I had done in basic and advanced infantry training, I became company guide, what
11:38
they call a Pathfinder now, and I used to run patrols up near the East German board.
11:43
Even right up at the border, they, they, uh, I don't know whether it was these
11:46
Germans or the Russians that built 'em, but they had built some guard towers.
11:50
I even got close enough one day to wave at the Russians up in the guard tower.
11:54
One of our maneuvers or training was a live fire exercise at a, uh,
12:01
what had been a German SS training camp in World War II at Wild Flick.
12:06
At.
12:07
I'm company guide.
12:08
The range Officer brings me aside and he hands me full tracer ammunition and
12:14
he says, private, I want you to go down the hill, cross that little stream,
12:17
start up that hill, and when I blow my whistle, once you hit the ground and
12:22
start firing with your tracer ammo, it was an old German World War II
12:26
pill box up on top of the hill, and I was the direct fire at that pill box.
12:31
And he said The company will then be firing and advancing by platoon.
12:34
And when they get up to you, you fall in with 'em and going up
12:37
the end, top of the hill, and that'll be the end of the exercise.
12:41
So I go down the hill, cross the creek, start up the hill, he blows
12:45
his whistle, I hit the ground, I start firing, and then all hell breaks loose
12:50
over my head as they start advancing by platoon, live fire, live ammo.
12:55
Anyway, they come down across the creek, start up the hill, and.
12:59
All of a sudden I recognized the BAR being fired at me.
13:03
'cause they do sound different.
13:05
I rolled over and looked off to my left and here they're coming at me.
13:09
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
13:10
And I just, I froze and he put the clip through it 10 feet from me.
13:15
Story was, he didn't do anything wrong.
13:17
Even matter of fact, he was doing everything right, clutched his
13:20
BAR heart into his side and looked ahead to watch where he was firing.
13:25
And stepped in a rabbit hole and destroyed his knee and went down and locked on
13:29
the trigger and had it pointed at me.
13:31
Well, I went looking for a desk job.
13:33
Fortunately, my best buddy from basic training was in regimental headquarters.
13:38
He was able to get me a job in PIO, public Information Office.
13:42
Writing hometown news releases.
13:46
Johnny Jones is in Mines Germany, driving into two and a half
13:49
ton truck, da, da da da da.
13:51
Sending him the hometown papers.
13:53
But we had a lot of sports teams, you know, to keep us active
13:56
and keep us out of the bars.
13:58
And had, having been sports editor, my paper at Valley Forge, I started
14:02
writing sports stories for the eighth division newspaper, the Arrow.
14:06
I got a call about two months later from a major Grady.
14:10
Who was head of the eighth Division newspaper and he said, private Jackson.
14:14
He said, I like what you've been doing.
14:16
I just lost my sports editor.
14:18
Would you be interested in a job transfer to division headquarters, general Smith?
14:24
No kp, no guard duty, weekend pass every weekend.
14:28
Oh, I don't want that job.
14:31
So I became sports editor of the eighth Division's newspaper.
14:35
Well, while all this was going on.
14:38
My hope was when I went to Germany to find a Bugatti and bring it home.
14:44
Well, I had no idea how to go about it.
14:47
You know, I didn't speak German, but shortly after I got there,
14:51
inexpensive, 35 millimeter cameras were just coming in and.
14:55
They made arrangements through John Gutenberg University and Mines, and
14:59
they sent a photojournalism prof out to the base to teach us film
15:04
speed, F setting shutter speed.
15:06
We had to know all that and taught us how and as as we were buying
15:10
through the PX at the time, mostly East German 35 millimeter cameras.
15:15
And then they carried it a step further and built a dark room, and
15:18
he taught us how to develop, film and make prints well in conversation,
15:23
we discovered he was a car guy.
15:25
Ernst Char was this man's name.
15:28
He had raced Formula two right after the war with a BMW 3 28 based car.
15:35
I, I don't think it was a Veritas, it was a special.
15:38
Anyway, he was also a race photographer for the Frankfurter ung
15:44
and the Rhine Zeitung newspapers.
15:47
I became his gungadin.
15:48
I started carrying his camera bags to the races.
15:51
Grand Pia Holland, grand Prix Europe in Belgium.
15:54
I mean, just, I got to go to up to the thousand Kilometers and Berg ert.
16:00
Well, among other things, he became my chairman editor when
16:02
I was editor of Anti Automobile.
16:04
Anyway.
16:05
When I went to Germany in the Army, I hated every German that walked the earth
16:08
'cause my father is buried in Belgium.
16:10
He was killed February 23rd, 45 as an infantry man crossing the rural ROER River
16:17
in Germany to a capture town of Duren.
16:20
When I met and got to know Earnst, you know, he pretty soon picked up
16:24
my story and he was a really sharp guy and he started diffusing me.
16:30
You know, we would go somewhere and he would say, oh, you see that over here?
16:33
Well, you know, that was the town church that you guys came in and just
16:37
bombed it flat, you know, I mean, the one that I remember most, we were going
16:41
to a race and we were on the Audubon.
16:43
You know, there were no rest stops in the Audubon, but the Germans were very casual,
16:46
so we just had stopped to get out and pee.
16:50
And I looked down in this valley and there's the remains of a village,
16:54
pretty obviously unoccupied.
16:56
And I said to Ernst, I said, I wonder what story is there, why that?
16:59
And he says, I'll tell you what the story is.
17:01
I mean, he had very carefully planned this.
17:04
He said the American infantry was coming up that valley, and he said this.
17:08
This was near the end of the war.
17:10
At that point in time, the American Army and the Army Air Corps had worked out
17:15
where the ground units had a ground air radio, and there were media bombers just
17:22
flying around waiting for assignments.
17:24
Anyway, this infantry unit started taking artillery fire.
17:29
And they thought the spotter was in the steeple of the
17:32
church in this little village.
17:34
So they called in media bombers and they flattened this town.
17:39
You know, T is telling me this story said that when the infantry unit
17:43
occupied the town, there was no artillery spotter in the church steeple.
17:48
And I said, you certainly seem to know a lot about this earth.
17:51
And he said, yes, my grandfather was one of the ones that was killed.
17:55
But he very carefully did this.
17:57
And diffused me.
17:59
I mean, I came home at peace, but the thing that was the biggest shocker with
18:03
Ernst, after he got to know me about six months, he invited me over to his
18:07
house and I walked into his living room and framed over the fireplace, the dual
18:13
controls, out of some kind of an airplane.
18:16
And I said, Ernest, what?
18:18
What is that?
18:19
That's the dashboard out of a B 24 liberator.
18:22
I said, where the hell did you get that?
18:24
He said, I shot it down.
18:25
He said, as a matter of fact, I shot down five of them.
18:27
He says, bill, I flew a Falk Wolf one 90 in the Li wfa.
18:31
I hated Hitler.
18:32
I hated the Nazis for what they've done to our country.
18:35
But if you said anything against them, they took you out and shot you.
18:39
And he says, but Bill, I am a German and you were kicking hell out of my country.
18:44
'cause you know what he had showed me.
18:47
Was where we had unnecessarily killed civilians.
18:51
Mm-hmm.
18:51
And, uh, I mean it's just like the Russians now Yeah.
18:53
In Ukraine.
18:55
And he said, so he said, please don't ask me to apologize.
18:59
And I got it.
19:00
And like I say, I came home in peace.
19:02
I thought about it in retrospect.
19:04
I became the son.
19:05
He wished he'd had ERs and I really bonded.
19:09
I had told him about wanting to Bugatti.
19:11
Well, he knew his way around.
19:13
And then we found two Bugattis in a bombed out garage in V spot
19:19
at the end of a bombed out alley.
19:21
We couldn't find out who owned them, and Ernst said, bill, we're gonna hack
19:25
our way in that alley and hack our way into that garage, and somebody's gonna
19:29
show up and say thank you very much.
19:32
He said, let's keep looking.
19:33
So it wasn't too long after that that he said, I found a car for you.
19:37
I said, what is it, Bugatti?
19:39
No, it's not a Bugatti.
19:40
What is it?
19:41
Well, you've gotta see it.
19:42
So we went down into the old part of M'S to an old home and to the horse stable
19:48
in the back and in the horse stable.
19:51
And he whips the tar pole off that beautiful 35 BMW,
19:56
which I knew nothing about.
19:57
I wasn't up to speed on.
19:59
Vintage BMWs, so he told me about the car.
20:02
It had originally been delivered to helm, HELM, Kler, K-L-O-C-K-L-A-R,
20:07
the main BMW dealer in Frankfurt in 1935, and he had hill climbed with it.
20:12
Ernst and I, we were told that he had won the 1500 cc German Hill
20:17
Climb Championship in 35 with it.
20:19
BMW would not verify this.
20:21
Hel clerk was a Nazi and they would not talk about anything
20:26
Nazis did with their cars.
20:28
So whether it's true or not, I don't know.
20:30
But anyway, I said to Ernst, 'cause I said, who owns this?
20:33
And he says, I do.
20:34
I said, you know, we've been looking for a car.
20:37
Why didn't you tell me you had this?
20:39
And he said, U gis.
20:41
He said, you come over here, you buy these vintage German cars, you run
20:45
'em into the ground and then you just go home and leave them there to rot.
20:48
And he said, that can't happen to this car.
20:50
But he said, he says, I've gotten to know you and I'll sell it to you.
20:54
I had to pay $1,750 for it.
20:59
And he said, you can do this.
21:00
We'll do this one of two ways.
21:02
He says, you gimme $1,750 and you can do it what you want.
21:06
He says, or you give me the 1,750, I'll keep 1400 and I'll use the rest
21:12
to restore it under my supervision.
21:15
'cause he wanted it done right and he had the context.
21:19
Now, the one reason my car is only worth 120,000 instead of over 200,000,
21:25
like the two for sale in Germany is.
21:28
When they got the car to a garage, it had one of the earliest hurt
21:33
roller bearing crankshaft engines, and nobody knew how to work on that.
21:37
So what we did, we found a stock 35 type three 15, and we took the lower
21:44
end, took everything from the head down.
21:47
And rebuilt that and put the racing head with three carburetors on it.
21:52
So that's why, you know, mine does not have the proper serial number on the
21:56
engine to go with the VIN number, but it's a little bit more of a hot rod.
22:00
Yeah, I mean, for a purist, that's a death.
22:02
No.
22:03
Was it difficult to find parts for a nearly 30-year-old BMW at that point?
22:08
Not at that time.
22:09
There was a vintage BMW Club and ERT had connections there and we were able to get
22:15
enough parts to rebuild it, get it on a road, and it became my everyday driver.
22:19
I mean, everybody in the eighth infantry regiment knew my car.
22:22
You wanted a Bugatti because obviously it's racing pedigree is known around
22:26
the world, so was it always your intent to go racing in Europe?
22:30
No, I figured my racing career at least, was temporarily over
22:35
until I got out of the army.
22:37
But anyway, I'd gone to Europe with no plans really to race.
22:41
I mean, I had my AC Bristol at home in the garage.
22:44
I bought our practice card from Seabring from the company afterwards,
22:47
and I had to pay $3,500 for it.
22:50
It's big money in the 1950s, but it was sitting at home in the garage, you know?
22:54
So I didn't have money to, you know, to really buy a exotic new race car.
22:59
But anyway, Ernst and I, we would take my BMW and go to the races and that.
23:05
I've never forgotten.
23:07
We were going to the thousand kilometers up at the Nu Burn ring.
23:10
I was worried about parking that car just in the parking lot, but as we got close
23:15
to the Nu Burn ring, the police just kept motioning me through right up to the race.
23:21
And when I got into the paddock.
23:23
There are at least a hundred Bugattis.
23:25
It was the annual gathering of the Bugatti Clubs of Europe and the Bugatti Club of
23:33
Deutsche Lawn was the host that year.
23:35
And of course, the police didn't know the difference between A BMW and a Bugatti.
23:41
They just knew it was an old race car.
23:44
So I pulled into, into that paddock area with all these Bugattis, you
23:50
know, and all these guys are looking.
23:52
And I got US forces plates on it and they started to come over and look at it.
23:57
T was with me and of course, and I noticed three guys talking
24:02
with their heads together.
24:03
Then they came over, shook my hand and explained to me in German with Ernst
24:09
Telling, you know, what they were saying.
24:11
And what they said was, we really appreciate your appreciation of a
24:18
German engineering of a car and.
24:22
In appreciation for what you have done.
24:25
We are making you a lifetime member of the Bugatti Club of Delan, and they presented
24:30
me with a beautiful car badge, which is on the side of the hood of the BMW still.
24:36
So, I mean, that was one of the thrills I had with a. I joined the Hess E-H-E-S-S-E
24:43
Motor Sports Club, which was like saying the Pennsylvania Motor Sports Club.
24:47
Mm-hmm.
24:48
Did some not serious airport racing, but some fun racing with the German guys.
24:54
You know, they really liked the fact, again, that I had
24:58
had this work done on this car.
25:00
So how did you hear about the Le Mans's retrospective?
25:03
I mean, was Le Mans's ever?
25:05
Well, with her connections, he came to me and he said, bill.
25:09
How'd you like to run the La Man's retrospective race?
25:12
I thought he meant the 24 hour, and I said, I can't
25:15
run, run the BMW for 24 hours.
25:18
He said, no, no, no, no.
25:19
He says, the day before the 24 hour, there's a one hour race
25:23
called the Le Mansn Retro Retrospective for cars that raced there prior
25:27
to World War ii, prior to 1939.
25:30
He says, your BMW qualifies and I can get you an entry.
25:34
So PFC Jackson goes to his company commander in the Eighth Infantry Company,
25:40
A of the Eighth Infantry Regiment.
25:42
And I said, I, everybody knew my car on base Captain I, I said, I
25:46
have an opportunity to run my BMW in the La Man's retrospective race
25:50
to explain to him what it was.
25:52
And he said, Jackson, that's above my pay grade.
25:54
I can't give you permission to do that.
25:55
You're gonna have to go see the colonel.
25:57
So I go up to headquarters, the eighth infantry regiment to the colonel's
26:00
office, and I go in and I. Make a same presentation and he says the same thing
26:06
I, that's above my pay grade Jackson.
26:08
You're gonna have to go to division headquarters and
26:10
talk to somebody up there.
26:12
So I drive up the division headquarters in Bud Krono bark in the general's
26:17
parking lot next to an Austin Healey.
26:21
Somebody's a car guy.
26:22
PFC Jackson just walks in cold into the commanding General's office and there's
26:27
a major sitting there at the desk.
26:29
You know, what the hell do you want private?
26:32
And I said, well, sir, I, I was told I have to come see the Commanding General.
26:36
I have an opportunity to run my 1935 BMW in the La Man's retrospective race.
26:41
You what?
26:43
Let me get the general guess who the car guy was.
26:47
So he comes rushing out of his office, you know, and I told him
26:50
the whole story and, and he says, of course you can, private Jackson.
26:54
He says, but you damn well better tell him you're in the eighth Infantry Division.
26:58
Yes, sir. So me and my best Army buddy, Jack Gobel, hop in the car at the time.
27:06
You know, the easiest way to go to La Mans was to go to Paris and go south.
27:10
Well, Paris was off limits to GIS at the time, so we went south
27:16
through, I can't think of it.
27:17
We went south and almost straight across at LeMans, we hit some towns that we were
27:22
the first GIS there since World War ii.
27:25
I mean, it was a relatively quiet area.
27:28
Anyway, we got to LeMans and uh, were you well received by the French?
27:32
Oh yeah.
27:33
They loved the car and the fact that we were GIS and they, like I say,
27:36
these towns that we hit, you know, like we were the first American GIS
27:41
back since they'd been liberated, you know, they were very happy to see us.
27:45
So what did you think of Le Mans at that time?
27:47
Well, of course coming from the States, that was one of the.
27:51
Golden wishes for anybody racing cars was to go to the mall, you
27:56
know, with some factory team.
27:58
It just blew me away to, to be there, to be on that track with vintage Bentleys
28:04
and Rolls Royces, a Buggati and Al Alpha Romeos, Andela Hayes, and the Lodges,
28:10
and all the beautiful vintage cars.
28:13
I think we had a LA mall start.
28:15
With our cars angled.
28:16
Mm-hmm.
28:17
You were allowed to have a passenger, you know, if you had a two man sports car.
28:22
And so Jack, my best buddy on the Army, Jack Gobel, got the
28:26
ride the whole hour with me.
28:28
Let's unpack that a little bit more.
28:30
So driving Le Mans, did it live up to all the hype?
28:33
Did it live up to your expectations?
28:35
Oh yeah.
28:36
I mean, I had seen some film of previous Le Mansr races.
28:41
Forgive me, I still call it Little Mans.
28:42
That's fine.
28:44
But you know, it was just a thrill to be on that track.
28:47
I mean, it would've been the same way if I'd had gotten to
28:49
run in the Indianapolis 500.
28:51
I just, it was that kind of a thrill for me to, you know, to get to go
28:55
down the Ong straight, wide open.
28:58
And I had one experience during the race.
29:01
My boomer had mechanical breaks, and I had one that started locking up, so I'm
29:07
sure you're familiar with the laud course.
29:09
Mm-hmm.
29:09
At the end of the Mosam Strait, you turn, literally turn, right?
29:12
Mm-hmm.
29:13
My top speed was probably 80, 85, and when I'd start the break,
29:19
that break would catch and I'd kind of skidder through the turn.
29:23
And by the third lap, when I would come through the Frenches were getting
29:27
up on the hay bills and clapping, and I made it through the turn.
29:34
So since you spent an hour going around the circuit, obviously the
29:38
Mosan always has, its appealed because you can just go flat out and you can
29:42
really test the limits of your card.
29:43
Yeah.
29:44
But was there a section of the track that you really liked past
29:48
the pits you went through semester?
29:50
Mm-hmm.
29:50
And I liked that.
29:51
And the Dunlop Bridge was there at that time.
29:53
Yeah, yeah.
29:53
Yes.
29:54
Gimme a break.
29:55
How many years ago This is, and I'm 91 years old.
29:59
But, uh, yeah, that was the other part I liked when we hit those S
30:03
turns, the Dunlop Bridge, but you know, everywhere, all the way around.
30:08
The course of people were standing up and clapping when we went by, and
30:12
they loved the cars as much as we did.
30:15
If you watch any of the old videos of Le Mans from the fifties, it's all black and
30:20
white footage and there's some classic scenes of some of the pro drivers in
30:23
like D type jaguars and things like that.
30:25
And you see women literally walking down the road with grocery bags
30:29
because it's old farm roads, right?
30:31
Oh yeah.
30:31
At that time.
30:32
Yeah.
30:32
So is that what you encountered when you were driving?
30:35
Obviously it was in full color for you, you were there, but
30:37
for those of us that saw the old footage, what was it really like?
30:40
One of the thrills of of my life as far as racing.
30:44
I mean, even though it wasn't really a race, it was more than anything else,
30:48
a one hour continually running around the la long course for people to look
30:53
at all the beautiful old race cars.
30:55
I mean, it, it was just a thrill, you know, to be on that track.
30:58
Well, we, we took, had taken along our sleeping bags and one of our pup tents and
31:05
we just set up a pup tent in the, in the pit area and slump in our sleeping bags.
31:10
But you know, there was plenty of food and drink available and uh, what
31:15
became big time drivers were there for the 24 hour to see some of them.
31:21
I talked to Phil Hill again and I don't know if Carol Shelby was there.
31:25
Yeah, 59 would've been the year he was there with at the Aston DBR nine,
31:29
so that would've been the next year.
31:30
I'll be honest with you, I don't remember the guys, but there were
31:32
some of the guys that I'd raced with in the states that were there.
31:36
So, you know, it was a great, I think we were there about three days total.
31:41
Back to mine, Scott.
31:43
So to continue to talk about the Le Mans experience a little bit, one
31:47
of the questions we asked the pro drivers that come on and talk about
31:51
their experiences at Le Mans, one of the things is, what did Le Mans teach you?
31:55
'cause a lot of people will take what they learned from that experience and bring it
31:59
back to their racing when they come home.
32:01
Uh, so what do you think Le Mans taught?
32:02
You Don't do anything crazy in showing off.
32:06
As I said, our race wasn't really a competition.
32:09
Mm-hmm.
32:10
So there was no reason.
32:12
To press it.
32:13
I can remember a couple times hitting a turn with, say, a vintage Bentley.
32:19
I would just kind of, after you, my dear Alfonso, you know, let him, let him go.
32:23
There was no reason to turn it into a pitch battle.
32:27
Uh, there was nothing to be gained.
32:28
And, and very honestly, I was looking at the cars as much as anybody else thinking.
32:33
Here I am on the track with a vintage eight liter Bentley.
32:38
Uh, it just blew me away.
32:40
And then of course, seeing the cars in the pits, you know,
32:42
before the, before the race.
32:45
It was kind of like a dream come through for a young guy like me.
32:49
Did you ever race anywhere else in Europe after that?
32:53
With our Hesse boat sports club?
32:54
We did.
32:55
Like I said, we did some fun competitions on a couple of airports.
32:59
Nothing really serious.
33:01
Okay, I got to drive the Berg ring and that was fun.
33:04
Did you ever return to Le Mans after that one time?
33:07
Never had the chance.
33:08
Did you keep up with it?
33:10
Many decades of racing now have evolved at Le Mans.
33:12
Yeah.
33:13
You still keep up with the 24?
33:14
Not really.
33:15
I, when I came home, I, I was getting on with my life.
33:19
I had the AC Bristol, but I was going back to college.
33:22
My major Grady, we became friends when I was sports editor of
33:27
the eighth division of Paper.
33:28
And you know, he sat me down early on and says, what are you gonna do
33:32
when you get outta the Army Bill?
33:33
And I said, I don't really know.
33:34
And he said, did you ever consider journalism as a career?
33:37
And I said, no, I hadn't.
33:38
And he said, well, you should.
33:40
He said, we have the University of Maryland overseas program
33:42
right here on our base.
33:43
And he said, I'll bet if you took a couple of courses and got good grades
33:47
in them, you could go back and show them that, and you'd get back in.
33:50
And that's exactly what I did.
33:51
I, I went back and, of course, knew what I was doing.
33:54
Finished my degree in business management, took my master's in journalism.
33:58
The retrospective the year you did it?
34:01
1958. That wasn't the first time they had run it.
34:04
Do you know how many more times the retrospective ran after you did it?
34:07
I have no idea.
34:09
Were you able to find, was I the first, so right now you are the.
34:13
Earliest person we've ever interviewed that has turned a lap at Leba, whether
34:18
it was in anger or whether it was for fun, like you said, Shelby would've
34:21
been the year after you, Andretti, who we've interviewed, didn't race until
34:25
the sixties, Uhhuh mid to late sixties.
34:27
So that's almost 10 years after you.
34:29
So right now, yeah, there's nobody else that we've talked to
34:31
that has run it that far back.
34:33
Which is pretty cool.
34:35
And yeah, I'll say, I mean you, you know, you mentioned you thought I was mm-hmm.
34:39
When we first talked and our goal with this whole program is to talk to people
34:43
that have turned a lap at Le Mansr or been involved that came from the state.
34:47
Right.
34:47
Because it is such, like you said, it's such hallowed ground for a lot of people.
34:51
Mm-hmm.
34:52
It's that bucket list I wanna get there one day sort of thing.
34:55
And so it's pretty amazing to hear the stories.
34:57
Would it surprise you to know that?
34:59
And it's not a direct correlation that that has morphed into something
35:02
that is now known as Le Mans Classic.
35:05
Do they still run it?
35:06
They are now running it starting this year, every year from
35:09
now on alongside of the 24.
35:11
24. Well, that's what they did then, right?
35:13
So now they do it two weeks later and they run three days.
35:16
Oh, they don't?
35:16
And it's a full competition.
35:18
Would you like to guess how many people attended this year's Le Mans Classic?
35:21
I have no idea.
35:22
220,000 people.
35:25
Wow.
35:25
We're in attendance.
35:27
It's the biggest vintage race of the year.
35:28
Well, people like old cars.
35:29
Yeah, right.
35:30
What people don't know unless they've looked into it, is there is a class
35:34
for your BMW to continue to run.
35:37
Oh, really?
35:37
Even today at Le Mans, which is really, really cool.
35:40
So yeah, that'd be kind of neat, right?
35:42
Yeah.
35:43
Maybe it'll find its way home one day and run Le Mans again.
35:47
Well, on that note, bill, appreciate you spending your afternoon with me and Oh,
35:51
sharing some stories and some memories.
35:52
Well, I love, you know, I mean, somebody that's interested, you know, I'm nine one,
35:56
how much longer am I going to be around?
35:57
Or this is all going to be lost.
35:59
Well, good memories, right?
36:00
Oh yeah.
36:01
And a once in a lifetime opportunity.
36:03
Absolutely.
36:03
Absolutely.
36:03
Fantastic.
36:04
Absolutely.
36:05
As we cross the finish line on today's episode, we are left with more than
36:09
just the echoes of engines and the scent of old leather and gasoline.
36:13
Bill Jackson's journey reminds us that racing isn't just about speed.
36:17
It's about memory, meaning, and the quiet moments between laps from Cold
36:22
War barracks to the paddocks of Le Mans.
36:24
Bill's story is a testament to resilience, craftsmanship, and
36:27
the human connections that outlast even the fiercest competition.
36:30
His friendship with Ernst, his reverence for the machines he restored and
36:34
his reflections on time and legacy.
36:37
Invite us to consider what we're really racing towards.
36:40
We hope you enjoyed this presentation to look forward to more evening
36:43
with a legend throughout the season.
36:44
And on behalf of everyone here and those listening at home, thank you
36:48
Bill for sharing your stories with us.
37:01
This episode is brought to you in part by the Society of Automotive Historians.
37:07
They encourage research into any aspect of automotive history.
37:11
The SAH actively supports the compilation and preservation of papers,
37:16
organizational records, print ephemera, and images to safeguard, as well as to
37:22
broaden and deepen the understanding of motorized wheeled land transportation.
37:27
Through the modern age and into the future.
37:30
For more information about the SAH, visit www.auto history.org.
37:38
This episode has been brought to you by the Automobile Club of the West and
37:42
the A-C-O-U-S-A from the awe-inspiring speed demons that have graced the
37:46
track to the courageous drivers who have pushed the limits of endurance.
37:49
The 24 hours of the Le Mans is an automotive spectacle like
37:52
no other for over a century.
37:54
The 24 hours Le Mans has urged manufacturers to innovate for the benefit of future
37:58
motorists, and it's a celebration of the relentless pursuit of speed and
38:02
excellence in the world of motor sports.
38:04
To learn more about or to become a member of the A-C-O-U-S-A look
38:08
no further than www do Le Mansn org.
38:11
Click on English in the upper right corner, and then click on the a
38:15
CO members tab for club offers.
38:17
Once you've become a member, you can follow all the action on the Facebook
38:21
group, ACO USA Members Club, and become part of the Legend with Future
38:25
Evening with the legend meetups.
38:37
This episode has been brought to you by Grand Touring Motorsports as part
38:40
of our Motoring Podcast network.
38:42
For more episodes like this, tune in each week for more exciting and educational
38:46
content from organizations like The Exotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring
38:50
Historian, break Fix, and many others.
38:52
If you'd like to support Grand Touring Motorsport and the Motoring
38:55
Podcast Network, sign up for one of our many sponsorship tiers at
38:59
www.patreon.com/gt Motorsports.
39:03
Please note that the content, opinions and materials presented and
39:06
expressed in this episode are those of its creator, and this episode has
39:10
been published with their consent.
39:11
If you have any inquiries about this program, please contact the creators
39:15
of this episode via email or social media as mentioned in the episode.