Latest / Dear Chelsea / REPLAY: A Therapy Session with Dr. Dan Siegel

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REPLAY: A Therapy Session with Dr. Dan Siegel · Dear Chelsea

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, Hi, oh hello Catherine, Hello Chelsea.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good afternoon, everybody. Good morning.
• 0:07
  Speaker 3: We have some very exciting news. Dear Chelsea.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: The podcast you are currently listening to has been named
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: a Webby Honoree in the podcast general series Advice and
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: how To category.
• 0:20
  Speaker 4: Woo whooo.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: Congratulations, congratulations Chelsea.
• 0:25
  Speaker 5: Oh my god.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Earning the distinction of Webby Honoree, that's what it's called,
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: as recognized by the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences,
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: is a significant achievement, granted to only the top twenty
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: percent of more than fourteen three hundred projects submitted in
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: this year's competition.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: So that is a very exciting little award.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, how I love it. I love
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: getting nominated for awards. It's the whole new thing for me.
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, it's just it's a little bit of recognition.
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: It's kind of fun.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I love an atta boy like I love a pat
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: on the back. So this is just a wonderful way
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: to get one of those.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I agree, thank you very much.
• 1:05
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: What else, Catherine, Well, I'm wearing my Dear Chelsea hat.
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: From merches In.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: You guys are Dear Chelsea merches In It's available on
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: my website at Chelseahandler dot com.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: It's very exciting. Oh I should also tell you this.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: So the very first day that I wore my Dear
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Chelsea Lemon yellow T shirt, I went for a hike.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: My husband and I were hiking in Griffith Park and
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: a woman came up to me and she pointed at
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: my shirt and she goes, I have that in my
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: ears right now.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: And I was really confused.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: And then my.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Husband was like, Catherine, she said, she's listening to your
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: like this podcast right now, the one that's on your shirt.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, that's cute. It was very
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: I wonder why you were so confused.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I was, well, it was like the you're in. It
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: was like, that's in my ears right now. I was like, wait,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I don't understand. But she had earbuds in and it
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: was a whole thing.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: But it was very cute. Well that was cute. I
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: love that people listen to it.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I always forget, you know, you leave here and then
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: you get that you like, even did a podcast, right
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: So it's nice when people say, oh my god, I
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: love your podcast, or I've called in or I've written
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: in somebody tried to hand me their submission the other day,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: so I got to get that to you as soon
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: as possible. Just so everybody knows, Catherine handles the submissions.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, and there, how do you submit again.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea Project at gmail dot com. Don't send it
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: to Dear Chelsea. That's a very sweet woman who's not us.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: And who's obviously annoyed by getting all of our emails,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: but she's.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Like, I feel bad, I want to make sure that
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: these get to you. So that's Dear Chelsea Project at
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: gmail dot com. And yeah, I read every single one
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: that comes in so and actually I have received several
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: emails about our Amy Schumer episode, and there was one
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: specific little thing that was mentioned on the episode that
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: we wanted a lot of people wanted to make sure
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: that we correct it, okay, which you know we're here
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: to learn too, So I think that's great, Ashley says,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea. I love, love love your show guests. You
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: have the topics you cover. It helps so many people
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: and I love listening every week. I'm writing to respectfully
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: ask you for a correction to your episode with Amy Schumer.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: It was educational and vulnerable and your conversation on the
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: autistic community and later in life diagnoses will change people's
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: lives for the better. In the episode, it was mentioned
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: that autism can't be diagnosed until around age five or six,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: which is incorrect. I'm a speech and language pathologist who
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: works with children age two to fourteen, many of whom
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: are autistic. You can seek diagnosis as early as age two.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Early intervention is key for many families, and often the
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: stigma of autism keeps families from getting a diagnosis until
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: much later. My goal in my practice is always to
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: put children in their families first, and with all the
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: advocacy Amy does, I want everyone to be armed with
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: the most accurate information possible. Thanks for your consideration, Ashley.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Goddamn it, Amy, goddamn it, Amy, Why is she always
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: getting me in trouble? Come on getting people in trouble.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: And then I met Amy Schumer. Okay, so you can
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: get diagnosis early. As to thank you for your letter,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: thank you for your correction. We appreciate that, and yes,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: we want to get out accurate information to everybody.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, early intervention, guys.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Early intervention. I wish somebody would have intervened with me earlier.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Than they did, because I really just I could have
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: used some sort of diagnosis when I was younger. I
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: don't know what my diagnosis is, but I could have
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: used some help.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: I feel like we're as we have expanding conversations about
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: everything in the public domain.
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: There are so many things that I'm like, oh, wait,
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: I have this.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: I have that, Like it's because of podcasts and one
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: in particular that I was like, Oh, I have anxiety.
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: That's what that feeling is.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're actually knowing the difference between anxiety and like,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: you know, anxiety encompasses so many different things, like being
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: annoyed with people is anxiety I always had. Anxiety is like, oh,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: social anxiety and inability to so or perform or go
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: out or stage fright like that kind of thing.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: And it's actually much more nuanced than that.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: There is a whole spectrum of anxiety that you can
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: suffer from, and it can present in many different ways
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: in different people. So, you know, eating is anxiety sometimes,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: doing drugs is anxiety sometimes, or a celebration.
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: Can be either. Chelsea, do you have any tour dates
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: that you want to come?
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, I added a show in Saratoga. Saratoga Mountain Winery.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I added a second show in Nashville. Nashville is where
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: I am shooting my next special, so there will be
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: two shows now in Nashville. And I am also performing
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: at the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival in Montreal. Everyone
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: has been asking for Montreal dates to all of my
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Canadian friends. That is July twenty eighth, i will be
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: at the Montreal Just for Laughs. I'm hosting a gala,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: and then I also have another I have two dates
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: in Vancouver Friday August twelfth to show in Vancouver and
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: then Saturday, August thirteenth and Sunday August fourteenth. Tickets are
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: available for Calgary in Alberta. And I'm also adding a
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: show Saturday October eighth in Niagara Falls, which is Ontario.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: So those are my Canadian dates coming up. And then
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: this week I'm starting back on tour. So Thursday, April fourteenth,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: I'm in Cedar Rapids. Then the fifteenth I'm in Des
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Moines and I'm coming to Omaha.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: Nebraska on Saturday night.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: So and then the week after that is Louisville, Kentucky,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Saint Louis, Missouri, and two shows in Kansas City. So
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: check Chelseahandler dot com for your tickets. I'm back on tour,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: vaccinated in Horny. Let's get down to business.
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: It's just great.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: It's just great. I'm just back from Vegas.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm looking a little peckish or peaked, one of
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: those words.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: They both apply. Actually, I'm hungry and tired.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: We went to Whistler to celebrate my friend and his birthday.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: That was Saturday, very fun. Sunday night was the Grammys
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: in Vegas, which we flew out to with all of
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: our friends from Whistler.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: Then we celebrated Joe's birthday. After the Grammys. We had
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: a after.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Party for him with his DJ terb his one of
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: his besties DJing and it was so much fun. And
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: then we did it again Monday, and then we did
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: it again Tuesday, and we had activities like dune bugging
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: in the desert for all of our guests. We had
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: about seventy five people there. So I am fresh off
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: of a flight from Vegas.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: I just landed. I'm here today.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: And talking about to talk to my to our very
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: special guest for our final episode, which is our season
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: finale of season two. We'll be back shortly. We won't
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: take that long of a break. But our finale guest
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: is none other than my psychiatrist, doctor Dan Siegel. It's
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: very exciting.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: It's very exciting to have him on, and he's going
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: to help us with a couple of sort of trickier
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: questions that yes' had because I.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: Obviously I want to explain to all of my listeners.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Obviously I can help with many things, and I think
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: I know a lot about a lot of things, and
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: I also know that I don't know a lot about
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: some important things. So when there is heavier advice to
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: be given where we do need a professional, I obviously
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: try to implement one every few episodes so we can
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: catch up with the callers who I was not feeling
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: confident enough or you weren't feeling.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: Confident enough to help.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: By the way, I've got so many compliments on you
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: this weekend.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: My sister was also saying, I was on the phone
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: with her last night just how much A loves your
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: voice and be how well rounded you are. She was like, god,
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Catherine just knows a little bit about everything, and I
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: was like, I know, she's like a general practitioner.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: That's so great.
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: I mean, I guess I told her.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: Finances your specialty, because that's where you really come alive.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that would actually make everyone in my family.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: My dad is a tax attorney, so that would make
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: him laugh very very hard. But oh that's so great,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: A great compliment. Yeah, you know, I love to research.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: I love to fall down an internet rabbit hole. It's
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: finally paying off.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is, now that you've got this Webby award.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: I mean I slipped and said, Emmy, we can get
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: what that? Yeah, that's for us. Excellent, excellent. Well, should
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: we welcome doctor.
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: Dan the show?
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: I know doctor Dan.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: During the course of this interview, we'll mention several of
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: his books, but do we want to also maybe at
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: the end we can mention all the books because his
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: books are helpful, and I would like to just be
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: on the record and say there A lot of them
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: are parenting books. And I've read three parenting books from him,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: So you are an expert in parenting. Well, I mean
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: it was more for Burt and Bernice, and we know
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: how that turned out. So I mean, I don't know
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: if you could apply parenting books to animals, but that's
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: what I was after.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think they can be as sassy as teenagers.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Like Mimsy is in a very teenager stage right now.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: She just plants her feet when she doesn't want to
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: go home on a walk.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Bernie does that all the time.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: She Bernie won't step on certain materials, like she doesn't
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: like certain surfaces. So she's stops and then you have
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: to basically choke her to pull her over it. She
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: doesn't like sand, she doesn't like cement. That's just like
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: anything that's dirty. Really, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know where she got that from, my belle.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: It must be, it must be. We'll be right back.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: So today's guest It has a medical degree from Harvard.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: He's a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: of Medicine and the founding co director of the Mindful
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Awareness Research Center at UCLA. He is a multiple time
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: New York Times best selling author, a neuropsychiatrist, and interpersonal neurobiologist,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Doctor Dan Siegel.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, look who it is. Hi?
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: How are you?
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: Longtime?
• 10:49
  Speaker 6: You know?
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: Cci?
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: I know, how are you you?
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: I'm very well. This is my co host Catherine, who
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: I think he's.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: Spoken to Hi, Catherine, Nice to see you.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: Like Wise, Likewise.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Dan uses a standing desk, Catherine, So if his motion
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: is giving you motion sickness, let him know.
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I can stop if you want. It's I like walking.
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: But if you want me to stop, I can stop.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: No, that's fine. I'm fine with it. Although, Catherine, are
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: you okay with it?
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I think I'm okay with it. If I do get
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: motion sickness, I will let you know.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I love the idea of getting motion signess from someone
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: else's motion.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: What does it interpersonal neurobiologists mean? Dan?
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: You know? Interpersonal neurobiology is a phrase for a framework
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: that combines all different ways of knowing, like the different
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: fields of science or studies of meditation what are called
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: contemplative insights with indigenous practices indigenous wisdom, and we bring
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: it all together and say, if there's one reality, can
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: everybody join in the tent and have a conversation that's
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: collaborative so we can see the wisdom from all these
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: different points of view.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: Oh, interesting, is that a new field?
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a new framework. I introduced it in nineteen
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: ninety nine, so it's relatively new compared to some other things.
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: But it's new, especially in the notion that it's not
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: trying to replace an existing point of view. It's trying
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: to say, there's so many views from thousands of years
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: ago or from dozens of years ago, and if they're
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: all exploring the nature of truth, could we see if
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: they all fit together somehow? There's a common ground that EO. Wilson,
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: the writer calls consilience. So we look for the consilience
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: or common ground across independent pursuits of knowledge.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, we're really leveling up this episode, Catherine buckle In.
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: So that relates to actually one of the questions that
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: I want to ask you, but I'll ask that later,
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: but it relates to it.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: Okay, great, I love it. I love when you ask
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: me questions.
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: It's so great to see you, I got to say, Joseph.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, it's always good to see you. Always good to
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: see you.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: I spoke to you a few months ago because I'm
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: in a new relationship and about the adjustment to be
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: in a relationship with somebody, to spend so much time
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: with somebody when I'm so used to being so kind
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: of independent and alone. And I wanted to mention because
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: you and I had had conversation once and I can
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: say this because it's private until I publicize it.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: So I'll say it.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: But we talked about I remember there was a period
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: of time where I was telling you that I just
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I was like, I just want to go to bed
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: at like eight o'clock every night. You know, I'm not
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: in the mood to hang out. I just want to
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: be in bed all the time. And I was asking you,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: do you think I'm depressed? And I was single at
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: the time, and you said, saliently, I think that if
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: someone were in your life that you were excited about,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't want to go to bed at seven or
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: eight o'clock.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: And I still like to go to bed at seven
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: or eight o'clock.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are times when I can't where of
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: course I don't because he's a night owl, and we
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: compromise a lot.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: But the other night, I remember we came home.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: He was taping two of his shows at the Forum
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: in La his Netflix special, So there were big nights
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: out and we were out till one in the morning,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: then we were out till five in the morning, and
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: on the Sunday we were planning to go to all
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: these Oscar parties and I woke up Sunday, I'm like,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: I'm done. I can't socialize anymore. And that night, and
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: you know, Joe wakes up. My boyfriend has more energy
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: than a battery pack. I mean, it is unbelievable what
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: this guy is willing to do all day long on
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: no sleep. It's just crazy. I've never seen any human
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: being operate like this. He's got different DNA. So anyway,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: that night, he was like going somewhere. I wanted to
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: go to dinner with his family, and I was like,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I really just want to go to bed at seven
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: or eight o'clock. And I remember the conversation you and
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I had and I thought, oh, what does this mean
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: that I still want this? Because I have this kind
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: of element now to my personality where I want to
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: hunker down, you know, where I want to get in
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: bed and watch TV and just build myself a little nest.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: And I know when you do that often too much,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: it becomes it does become a pattern where it feels
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: like you are depressed.
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: Well no, so what's the part where you're calling it depression?
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I think when I was doing it consistently, now
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I do it, you know, on a Sunday night, you know,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: or you know, I don't do it as frequently, so
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: it doesn't feel as like bad.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Because when you do it consistently.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: And I think it was also maybe a product of
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: COVID as well, that I was just like, there's nothing
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: going on, it's just easier to get stoned and go,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: you know, get into bed and whatever. But it was
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: becoming a pattern that I didn't like about myself. It
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: just didn't feel I didn't feel alive. I felt like
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: I was slightly depressed. And I've never really dealt with
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: any depression to the level where I had to really
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: like take anything for it.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Or I don't know.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I guess I don't know if it's a question or
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: just an observation, but I don't know.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on that?
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you're raising a couple of really important issues.
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: I mean, one, when you use the word depression, we
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: should realize that there are people in the world who
• 16:00
  Speaker 5: have really serious ways where they get the experience of
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: you know, maybe going to bed early or even having
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: a hard time falling asleep. It can go either way.
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: Their sleep can be interrupted, they can get up early,
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: or they can sleep really a long time, So sleep
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: is a big issue to talk about with this thing
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: called major depression. But in addition, you know, they have
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: low energy. They have something called anhedonia, which means and
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: is without hedonis pleasure, So they don't get pleasure in
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: things that used to give them pleasure. And also they
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: don't get pleasure in anticipating doing something fun, so they
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: kind of lose their jois de vivre, their joy of living.
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: It kind of goes away. They start thinking kind of
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: really down thoughts like I'm no good, I'm guilty of
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: things that I'm not even guilty of. You know, I'm
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: a horrible person, and there's no future for me, there's
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: no hope, and then I start feeling helpless. So for
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: or any of us who've worked on a suicide prevention service,
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: when someone with serious depression calls you, you can feel
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: it in the tone of their voice. It's kind of
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: like flat and there's a huge despair there. That makes
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: suicide a serious risk. So if anyone's hearing us and
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: your experience of those, please reach out for help to
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: a mental health professional. If suicide is something you're thinking about,
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: you know, please reach out to a suicide prevention service,
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: because the great news about depression is that it's treatable
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: and even though you may feel hopeless, there's hope right
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: around the corner. And part of it actually is the
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: connection we talked about. So when I said to you,
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: I think if you had a connection with someone that
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: mattered to you in your life, it wasn't that I
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: thought you were depressed. But some people do get depressed
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: because they have no connection, and it's really loneliness, deep
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: deep loneliness. And our community, our larger society now doesn't
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: really support people having connections with each other. You know,
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: the current US Surgeon General wrote a beautiful book call
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: Together about this sad epidemic we have where we have
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: so much material wealth, but we don't have much relational wealth.
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: People are so isolated from each other, so you know,
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: that's a separate sort of thing. So being lonely can
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: make you feel horrible and despairing, but it might not
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: be called major depression, but it still feels terrible, and
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: we need to help people with that. And then there's
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: you know, just what's called dysphoria, which is where you
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: just feel yucky about your life. This as bad for me,
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: it's how you feel, and I'm dysphoric, you know, And
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: I think anyone who reads the news can get dysphoric
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: because we're in a rough place in the world now,
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: so our body is going to respond emotionally, and emotion,
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: you know, is basically three things woven together. It's relationships,
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: the body's response, and meaning. Those three things are really
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: what emotion is. So if someone says, oh my emotion
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: f horrible, I feel down. What's going on with the world, Yeah,
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: let's name it so we can frame it like in
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: a picture frame and say that's what it is. Let's
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: try to participate, you know, in social activism. Let's try
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: to do something to really feel empowered, to actually have
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: what's called agency, or I can be an agent of
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: action to do something. So a lot of people these
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: days are feeling hopeless, and they can call it depressed,
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: but that gets people mixed up with a serious psychiatric
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: condition rather than the world is in a really tough spot.
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: So we can feel hopeless. Let's talk to each other
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: about it, because in working collectively, we can actually move
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: through that to what Joanna Macy, a beautiful writer, calls
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: active hope. So this is a way you can take
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: that word depression and see it as either a serious
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: disorder that sometimes needs medications or other treatments, or a
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: more moderate condition where you know psychotherapy can be helpful,
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: or a we're using that word to describe loneliness and
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: then having a change in your participation in life. You know,
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: like people in AA, for example, they get an instant
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: community through alcoholics anonymous meetings, and their feeling of a
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: loneliness and despair can dissolve away because they go to
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: a regular meeting. Like a relative of mine is a
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: recovering alcoholic, and he goes to the meeting seven days
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: a week, and he's like the most unlnely person right
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: to find because he's got a whole community every day
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: that he's actively a part of, very meaningful conversations.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I like dysphoric.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: That's a good way to describe it, because I think
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: for many of us, especially with the events of the
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: last few years, it's.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Like a low level of dysphoria.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: You know, it's and it can feel it feels maybe
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: like depression, because it's not a common feeling. I know,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: for me, I've never felt that kind of listlessness where
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: you're just.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Like it's on Wii.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: You're just like, I don't I can't get it up
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: for anything. I'm not that excited about anything that's happening.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: And I definitely did remove reading the news from my
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: repertoire after a while because I just I read too many.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: It was too obvious what it does to your brain.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: And obviously now with the events, the most recent events
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: in Ukraine and Russia invading Ukraine like that is something
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: that is a human being. It's our responsibility, I believe,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: to be up to speed and to understand and to
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: be actively involved in doing whatever it is that you
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: may be able to do, you know, whether that's donating
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: money or volunteering in some way, or just being mindful
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: of what's happening in the world and meditating on it
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: every day whatever, like small contribution you think is fine
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: for you, or big contribution, but.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: The political aspect, it's just too sickening.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: So I realized that that was just contributing to my
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: kind of darkness for a long time and had to
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: remove that. And it's kind of like it's too bad,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: But it's an addiction. It's just like anything else. It's
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: just like being addicted to TikTok or Instagram or mind
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: scrolling through your phone on social media. That is also
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: an addiction, you know, And I don't like the way
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: that makes me feel either, And I'm very mindful of.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: How peruse it.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Like you know, if I'm reading a book for two hours,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I come away with a much different feeling, a much
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: greater self assuredness and self esteem than I do when
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: I'm wasting my time reading gossip or reading you know,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: the internet, Like, I know now what the components are
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: that trigger me or take me to kind of a
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: low energy, vibrational place exactly.
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, you're describing an awareness of how you're responding.
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: Your body is responding, your emotions are responding, and then
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: in that awareness, you've beautifully created a space so you
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: can say, wow, I'm kind of addicted to these social
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: media things, and I notice I feel really bad. Wow.
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: When I take the time to reflect on that, I
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: can name it. Oh, I feel bad when I do
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: this social media. I could frame it say Okay, what
• 23:01
  Speaker 5: do I want to do about it? I'm not going
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: to do it as much. That's an empowered mind you're
• 23:06
  Speaker 5: talking about that you have, and it's beautiful here you
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: describe it, and a lot of people and if you've
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: seen the Social Dilemma documentary, you know, the people who
• 23:16
  Speaker 5: designed social media studied addiction, and they intentionally create stuff
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: on your screens to capture eyeballs, to capture your time,
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: focusing your attention on the thing whatever it is. That
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: wasn't by accident, it was by intent.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but what's so astonishing is that everybody is aware
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: of that and has been made aware of that, yet
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: we still allow ourselves to operate.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Like that, like people like, I know, it's crazy.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, wait, you're just a cog and of
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: wheel if you're just allowing people to manipulate your brain.
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: Well, And part of the reason why that addiction what's
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: called intermittent reinforcement. If you keep on giving positive reinforcement
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: over and over again, after a while, it isn't so addicting.
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: But intermittent reinforcement where I give you a reward, then
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: three next times don't. Then I give you one, then
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: eight times next I don't. Then the ninth time you
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: get a reward, you don't know when it's gonna happen,
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: so it really pulls you in. That's number one. The
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: other thing, which is the other side of it, is
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: that our brains are incredibly social. So there's all sorts
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: of studies I can tell you about, but the summary
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: of all of them basically is we are social creatures.
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: That's no surprise. You didn't need to do brain studies
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: to know that. But when you look at the brain,
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: areas involved in feeling accepted. And I can tell you
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: one study that is so cool. When you're accepted, it
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: activates this dopamine release. It's very rewarding. That's what the
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: dopamine is for. That was good. Let me do it again,
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: Let me do it again, Let me do it again.
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: But then when you sense that you're not accepted, like
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: you're not getting as many hits on your social media
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: or whatever like that, the part of the brain, it's
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: called the dorsal anterior cingulate, the part of the brain
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: that registers social rejection. I call it feeling of being inadequate,
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: like I'm not fitting in with the social group. It's
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: exactly the same part of the brain as if someone's
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: stabbing you with a knife. It hurts literally in the brain.
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: It's the same part of the brain social rejection, physical pain,
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: same part of the brain. Now, when you take that,
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: you go wow, Okay, So you're always trying to see
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: how can I fit in? How do I compare? How
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: do I fit in? How do I compare? Do I belong?
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: Do I not belong? You know, so you're trying not
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: to feel the pain. You're trying to find membership in
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: a modern society, as we talked about earlier, where we're
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: so alone. So you combine those two things, the int reinforcement,
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: all the other ways they know about addiction with the
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: social brain, and it is a money maker goes. Then
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: you're going to get so much time.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Think about it.
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: Fifteen years ago we didn't have these things, and now
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: everyone's got them.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know people are like, oh, we're going to
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: keep our kids off social media, We're going to keep
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: them off of iPads. I'm not going to get any
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: of that until they're ten, twelve, fifteen. I have a
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: friend who waited for her kids to get a phone
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: until I think they were fourteen, And it's like, what
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: does that do?
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: Because once you get it, once you're in, you're in, right.
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: I mean I even see it in my two kids.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: You know, one he's old enough, he's thirty two to
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: not have had that part of his adolescence. The other
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: is twenty eight and she did. And you can even
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: see in their different groups of friends, you know, they
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: deal with social media in different ways, the younger one more.
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: I'll tell you a sad thing. I was having lunch
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: with Caroline, my wife. We were having a nice lunch
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: in New York. It was a great restaurant and everything.
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: Then these people come sit next to us with this
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: one year old kid, and it was really cute, and
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: they were from another country and it was her birthday,
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: so it was a birthday party. So they pull out
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: this presence, just one sitting in the high chair. They
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: handed her a smartphone and for the rest of the
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: so called birthday party lunch, every one of them is
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: on their separate device, and Caroline and I are going,
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: oh my god. So I took out my phone to
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: take a picture because I wanted to put up on
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: social media. She goes, don't do that, you know, which
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: is right. I shouldn't expose them, although I did get
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: a picture where you couldn't see identity.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: But anyway, and you really should know better than that
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: first time.
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: I mean, what I wanted to share on social media.
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: How scary social media can be. Because this kid, now, at.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: One, you should have gone up to them and said, hey, yeah,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: these are my credentials and I need to yeah, and
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: said listen, I am a doctor that specializes in this.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: I have a degree from Harvard. I'm a neuropsychiatrist. Do
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: you understand the damage you are doing to your child's brain?
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: And you rememborize what you're saying next time, I'm going
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: to do that.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, come on, I mean, think about the impact that
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: would have had. Yeah, maybe it's unwelcome, but I mean
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: you're doing them a favor, you know, at least giving
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: them the information that they may not.
• 27:59
  Speaker 7: Be vy to.
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: What's so interesting, Chelsea, because there are times when I
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: wonder about doing that, offering unrequested suggestions. Now my kids
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: are now adults, so that's that's a whole parenting adult
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: children thing where you actually intentionally don't do it. But
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: as a professional and a member of our you know,
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: human family, when do I offer stuff like that? So
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: it's a little tricky. I've tried it a few times
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: and it often does not go off well. So what
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: I do is I keep a lot of my extra
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: parenting books in the car and then I just like
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: hand them out for free, like you know, Halloween, you know.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: Trigger Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess you know nobody.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I mean most people would say, don't give unsolicited advice.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: I obviously subscribe to a different theory. I think that
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: sometimes I can hit somebody. I mean not always, but
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: sometimes you can get somebody who really hears you and
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: and you're doing them a service or a favor, you know.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: I mean that is sad.
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah, But you know, when you and I first met,
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: I really was impressed with how you like to learn
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: new stuff. What in you really empowers you to have
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: such a focus on lifelong learning, because when you came
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: to me, you weren't like an adolescent coming to me
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: for therapy. You know, I'm a child adolescent and adult therapist.
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: An adolescent can struggle with things, you know, you were
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: a full on adult accomplished a lot, but you came
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: to learn more, you know, and it's such a beautiful
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: thing that I think life will be the death of me.
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: Your book illustrates. But what is it that you can
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: teach all of us about your lifelong learning nature?
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, thank you. I think that's a huge compliment.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know that it's really I think
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I just am very curious, you know, Like I have
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: a curiosity that I've always had which has gotten me
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: into lots of trouble as a child, like asking impertinent questions,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: but being really curious about people's lives. And I love
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: interpersonal dynamics, like I just love like when I meet
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: a family, like if I'm on and I get to
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: meet brothers and sisters together with their parents and watching
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: the dynamics and like how they function. I just will
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: never get tired of that. And because I'm from such
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: a big family and we have so many additional family members,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: because people get married and hook up and have boyfriends
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: and girlfriends and children, it just gets more and more complex.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: And so for me, it was about becoming a better,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: more self aware, fuller person. But curiosity, I think, you know,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: I could listen to you talk about the brain and
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: science for hours because I find that fascinating too, you know.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: I mean there are things I don't find fascinating, like bitcoin,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: you know that is when I talk about that, it's like, hmm, okay,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: I don't have I mean I had someone explain an
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: NFT to me finally where I was able to get
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: understand from the beginning to the end, and I was like,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: oh my god, I want to I want to pay
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: you for that explanation because I now understand what an
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: NFT is.
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: Okay, well i'd have you tell me that, but.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: We'll save that for another We'll save that for a
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: private conversation.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: Yes, but thank you.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, I really don't know how
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: to answer that, but I do think that you know,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: when you ask questions, you're signing up for just like
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: more knowledge, right, You're yeah, and especially if you have
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: the luxury of going to someone like you you have
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: so much experience, it's like it's a win win situation.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's going to.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Be painful at times when you're doing inner work, of course,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: because you have to face things about yourself that are
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: not pleasant and that are humiliating or embarrassing or however
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: you want to frame that. But bravery gets you to
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: a better place in life. I think you know, being
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: brave about finding out about yourself.
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: I think your journey in therapy it isn't everyone's experience
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: that they're so basically open to change. And I remember
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: there was a moment and you say this in the
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: book so I can share it. You got very emotional
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: about something, and I think there was an awareness that
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: you felt shouldn't be emotionally, shouldn't be crying, You shouldn't
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: have it right. One is lifelong learning, but the other
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: is openness to change.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Well, yes, I would encourage everyone to always be curious
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: to learn.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: I mean learning is knowledge and knowledge is power, and
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: I want to be powerful. Okay, So should we go
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: ahead and take some callers.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea, and I'm going to
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: make us take a quick break before we do that.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: I love breaks. Let's take one excellent.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: We had to call a right Catherine, that's going to
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: call back in because it's a man who's transitioned from
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: being a woman and he has a three year old
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: daughter with his wife, and he was asking when the
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: appropriate time is to explain all of those things to her,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: and I thought, we have Dan coming up. I think
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: you'd be better suited to answer that question instead of me.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: So I think we were able to get Alex on
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: the phone today, right Catherine.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: Yes, his three year old daughter, Sutton.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: He has a bottom surgery coming up in the next
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: year and a half, and so he's wondering how to
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: address those things with Sutton. So Hi Alex, Hello, Hi Alex,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Hey Alex, nice to meet you.
• 33:11
  Speaker 6: Nice to meet you. Thank you for having me.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, when you were on last time, I was like, oh,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: you know what, I you know, we had a great conversation,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: but I thought we have my doctor coming on next
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: and he would be better suited since he specializes in
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: adolescent brain development and childhood all.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Of this stuff.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: So yeah, he's here, so we were we thought maybe
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: you could give him a summary of your situation so
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: he could weigh in for sure.
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: Absolutely, thank you. So the situation really is is I
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: have a three year old and I am I'm the
• 33:45
  Speaker 6: cusp of going through the consultation process to have my
• 33:48
  Speaker 6: next major surgery as being a transgender and I really
• 33:53
  Speaker 6: am going to be embarking upon a long journey of
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: about three to four surgeries to have everything happen, and
• 34:00
  Speaker 6: it usually takes about a year year and a half
• 34:02
  Speaker 6: in long recovery times. And I wanted to do this
• 34:06
  Speaker 6: early in Sutton's development so that it wasn't kind of
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: a core memory for her. But I'm just kind of
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: teetering on how much to be to tell a three
• 34:15
  Speaker 6: year old a four year old about what type of
• 34:18
  Speaker 6: surgery I'm having, the impact that it's going to have
• 34:20
  Speaker 6: to her life as well as what healing time is,
• 34:23
  Speaker 6: because it's not like I'm sick or going through anything
• 34:26
  Speaker 6: that's something that she should be worried about. More So,
• 34:29
  Speaker 6: this is a great part of my journey, but it's
• 34:31
  Speaker 6: going to be impactful for her, So I just want
• 34:34
  Speaker 6: to make sure that I'm expressing both sides of it
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: and the reality of it, but also in a way
• 34:39
  Speaker 6: that she's going to understand what's happening to Daddy.
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: Well. She's so lucky to have you as a parent, Alex,
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: because your intuition of tuning in and getting a feeling
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: of transparency that a family without secrets is a family
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: that has you could call it a coherent narrative that
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: as a narrative about whatever is going on, even if
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: it's about something wasn't expected, which is usually where stories
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: come from. You know, is really important. And what is
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: your heart and your gut? Literally we have three brains.
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: You have a brain in your head, you have a
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: brain in your heart, You have a brain in your
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: gut and what is your heart brain and your gut brain.
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: What are they telling your head brain that has the
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: words to speak, What are they signaling to you?
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: So I suppose if I was to refer to my heart,
• 35:33
  Speaker 6: I would say that I want to make sure that
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: she feels comforted in those times when I'm healing and I,
• 35:40
  Speaker 6: you know, can't be around her as much, can't play
• 35:43
  Speaker 6: with her on as much or engage with her as
• 35:45
  Speaker 6: she expects. And then I guess my gut is kind
• 35:50
  Speaker 6: of telling me to be a little bit more worried
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: about kind of what the impact is going to have
• 35:55
  Speaker 6: and what I guess the optics are a big thing.
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: Optics of her going back to daycare, or talking about
• 36:01
  Speaker 6: what our family looks like at that time, or her
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: having to do everything with mom because I won't be
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: able to get out of the house as well for
• 36:09
  Speaker 6: that amount of time. So yeah, I just want her
• 36:12
  Speaker 6: to feel like I'm still there just as I am
• 36:15
  Speaker 6: every single day now with being as able as I am.
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: That's fantastic. And you know, these two brains, when they
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: send their wisdom up to your head brain, which has
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: kind of logic and thinking about things in that way,
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: what does your head brain say about the whole developmental
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: timing of when to speak with her?
• 36:38
  Speaker 6: I suppose my head brain is kind of kind of
• 36:42
  Speaker 6: being more logical. Hopefully it's it's on my side, but
• 36:46
  Speaker 6: being more logical in the way that telling me that
• 36:48
  Speaker 6: it's going to be okay, like this is only going
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: to be a blip in what our family development looks like.
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: And I hope that what comes out of it is
• 36:59
  Speaker 6: that she sees that my happiness continues to grow on
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: my personal journey and that our family just becomes more
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: kind of united, that when she looks back on the time, yes,
• 37:10
  Speaker 6: it was trying in the grand scheme of how we
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: had to schedule things, and I wasn't there for you know,
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: going and running outside as much. But after the healing,
• 37:19
  Speaker 6: life will go back to quote unquote normal and I
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: will just have more happiness and more understanding of how
• 37:26
  Speaker 6: I walk in the world. So that hopefully just makes
• 37:29
  Speaker 6: it easier for her and for our family to progress
• 37:32
  Speaker 6: as a unit.
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: That's so beautiful. Well, I mean, Alex, for me, you've
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: kind of answered the question in the deepest way of
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: what feels right to you personally, what feels right to
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: you for your daughter, and then you know, when you're
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: turning to Chelsea and you know turning to me, you know,
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: as a person who writes about development, here's just added
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: on top of your wisdom. I would just add the
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: following things. The way you're I think think approaching the
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: notion of a family story, the family narrative. And I
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: don't say story like a pretend story. I mean we
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: are narrative creatures. We tell the story of who we are,
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: and some families never do that. And there are all
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: sorts of secrets and all sorts of things that are
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: never talked about, you know, and then that shuts things down.
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: I mean, Chelsea, we could talk about that about when
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: your brother died that you've written about so powerfully in
• 38:27
  Speaker 5: your narrative of letting that come out and be the story.
• 38:31
  Speaker 5: So Alex, for you and for your whole family, everything
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: can be our teacher. You know, life happens, stuff that's
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: challenging happens. And if we see things that are not
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: expected as challenges rather than as threats, then we bring
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: as a parent a very different attitude, like saying, you know,
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: we didn't expect this to happen. Now, how you then
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: make that health, promoting growth, promoting stress or distress is
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: what I think your beautiful question is doing. You're saying,
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: this is going to be stressful, that's fine. Life is
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: that's meaningful and stressful. How do we allow this to
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: turn into a positive, growth promoting, challenging experience rather than
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: a threat? And the answer is what you've already told us.
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: You're ready to be fully present with your daughter. You're
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: being fully present with yourself, and so you know you
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: could turn to the people who are involved in the
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: surgery and the centers you're working with and ask them
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: this question too, which I urge you to do. From
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: my point of view, it's not my area of specialty,
• 39:36
  Speaker 5: but as a child specialist, what I would say is
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: this is every child's a little different terms of their temperament,
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: and every child's a little different in terms of their
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: attachment to different caregivers. But the commonality across temperament and
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: attachment is to tell a story that makes sense of things.
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: So in a book I wrote called Parenting from the
• 39:58
  Speaker 5: Inside Out, it's sort of tea you how to bring
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: those stories. Or I wrote that with Mary Hartzel, a
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: book I wrote with Tina Payne Bryson is called The
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: Power of Showing Up. Those two books would be great
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: ones for you to actually read before you tell her
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: the story, because they show that whatever the age, people
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: ask this about kids whore adopted, When should I tell
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: my adopted kid whenever you bring it? Two, three, four.
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: She's old enough now to be able to hear a
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: story as you know, to want to hear it again
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: and again and again and again, and so you have
• 40:33
  Speaker 5: to be ready to like be repeating yourself. But that's fine.
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: And when she sees the love in your heart, when
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: she feels that your gut is really behind this and
• 40:44
  Speaker 5: your head is now bringing the words to make a story,
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: makes sense. She's ready at three unless there's some of
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: the other issue that says, let's hold it off. But
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: if the surgery is happening, soon been telling the story,
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: even having you know, toys that allow you know, enact story.
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: And here's what I would say, this is not just
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: about the surgery, but about the general idea of transitioning
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: is people they don't understand that gender identity is different
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: than assigned sex, whether you have a penis or vagina.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: When I used to be pediatrics and we'd go to
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: the delivery room to help with the baby. You'd see
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: the outer manifestation and say boy or girl. But gender
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: identity is actually along an entire continuum because the brain
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: of mammals can be hugely female, which it starts out
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: as in all of us. But then the way the
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: testosterone that's secreted by the testicles crosses the blood brain
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: barrier into various degrees masculinizes that brain to be a
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: teeny bit masculine but mostly feminine, or middle way both ways,
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: or all the way masculine. Your gender identity is based
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: on that, and it's not yes or no. It's not
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: like a switch on or off, you know, girl. So
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: just explaining it that way, even like a switch, you say,
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: what we look like for most of us ninety eight
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: percent of us outwardly when we're born, is like a switch.
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: It's on or off. It's boy or girl. But actually
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: gender identity is not like that. It's more like a
• 42:15
  Speaker 5: thermostat We have all these degrees, and you can't tell
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: a person's gender identity from the outside. And I had
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: one gender identity in my sign sex with something else.
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: So I'm in the good fortune of making sense of
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: that and so I'm going to make my outside match
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: my inside. That's the story, right, So she at three,
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: she's gonna get that. And when I work with kids
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: who are like four or five who are assigned gender
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: is one thing, but a gender identity is the other.
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: I talk to them about that and the parents say, oh,
• 42:48
  Speaker 5: but this is going to be challenging. Oh yeah, but
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: this is the way it is. And this person could
• 42:52
  Speaker 5: be incredibly healthy and happy if you, as their parents,
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: let them see. This is just what happened. And life
• 42:59
  Speaker 5: is about always exploring and learning and growing and this
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: is a beautiful thing and it works out fine. Whereas
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: as you know, if people say no, no, no, you
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: can't do that, that's when it's a problem. So is
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: that part of the what you've learned in your journey?
• 43:14
  Speaker 6: Absolutely, And making sure that having a daughter that's kind
• 43:18
  Speaker 6: of going through this journey as a part of my journey,
• 43:21
  Speaker 6: I feel it's my responsibility as her parent to make
• 43:24
  Speaker 6: sure that the environments that she is in, the people
• 43:28
  Speaker 6: have that positive outlook. And that's what I'm trying to
• 43:31
  Speaker 6: do as well, which is why it's just nerve wracking,
• 43:35
  Speaker 6: you know, raising a kid in this day and age
• 43:37
  Speaker 6: and I'm from We're in a small town in West Michigan,
• 43:40
  Speaker 6: so it's a little bit difficult, but I think exactly
• 43:44
  Speaker 6: like you said, creating that narrative for my family that
• 43:48
  Speaker 6: makes a positive space no matter what challenges come about
• 43:51
  Speaker 6: is a great way to put it, because no one
• 43:54
  Speaker 6: writes that story or that narrative but us.
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: Yes, exactly exactly. You know you might enjoy also and
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: give me these references. But there's a book called Brainstorm
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: I wrote for adolescents which talks about how parents can
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: approach when a child themselves is having a different This
• 44:13
  Speaker 5: is I think with sexual orientation issue, but the same thing.
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: You know, parents have one expectation, a kid comes out
• 44:18
  Speaker 5: the other way. How that works out. This would be
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: the flip side where you're going to come as the
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: parent to teach your child that what she may be
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: learning in school or on television is one extreme and
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: that is actually more subtle. And so she has the
• 44:34
  Speaker 5: incredible fortune of having you as a parent who will
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: guide her through a deeper notion of the way things
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: actually are, which is a beautiful gift you're going to
• 44:42
  Speaker 5: give her.
• 44:43
  Speaker 6: Thank you, I appreciate that, and I appreciate your advice,
• 44:46
  Speaker 6: and thank you for having me so that I could
• 44:48
  Speaker 6: have that conversation and get that.
• 44:50
  Speaker 5: I appreciate it.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: I hope we'll be able to check in with you
• 44:52
  Speaker 5: and see how it all goes y.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: I love that by alex Hi.
• 44:57
  Speaker 6: Thank you so much.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Ah, that was perfect, awesome, I'm wonderful.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, really connecting the dots here.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I loved what you said too about
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: gender being so separate from the actual physical sex. It
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: actually goes with another question that someone wrote in, but
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: this one really directly relates to what you were saying.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: So this question is from Monica, whose child Kira, has
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: told Monica that they'd like to go by them pronounce so,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Monica says, Dear Chelsea love the podcast. We have a
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: fifteen year old daughter who came out to us as
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: non binary a few months ago. She tells us that
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: all of her friends referred to her as they slash them.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, she told us she was bisexual.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: I laughed and told her that it was a trend.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: I didn't handle that well, obviously, trying to do this
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: one better. We live in Boulder, Colorado, in a very
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: liberal setting where It's hard to tell if this is
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: a trendy choice or an actual feeling that she's going with.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Her friends are either bisexual, non binary, or trans. We
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: love that this generation can explore their sexuality, unlike we were.
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: Able to do growing up. The hard part is the labels.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: I feel like at this point in her life she
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: doesn't have to label her sexuality.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: Am I wrong?
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: My husband and I don't feel comfortable referring to her
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: as they slash them. We're both very open and liberal.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: We believe that people should love whomever they want to
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: love to find happiness. For some reason, we're having a
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: hard time with this one. We support her in every
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: single way, and whoever she wants to love would completely support.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: She's single at the moment. The issue is the pronouns.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: We've talked to her about this and have told her
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: that we support her, but we don't feel comfortable switching
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: pronouns at this point. She says, she understands. Are my
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: husband and I complete assholes? Thanks for your time, Monica.
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: Well, thank you Catherine for sharing Monica's question. There is
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: so much to say about her reflections. Yes, the first
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: broadest statement to make is the more you know the
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: less you see, and what that means is the way
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: the brain is constructed. It kind of has has a
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: way of learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, and then to
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: speed things up, it then makes categories which have concepts
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: then that emerge from them in words like boy or girl.
• 47:23
  Speaker 5: So by the time you're you know, very young, you
• 47:26
  Speaker 5: figured out, okay, i'm a boy, I'm a girl. You
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: know that one's a boy, that one's a girl. You
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: know those are categories, right, and they kind of make
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: sense from anatomy. But as we pointed out, you're assigned sex,
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: which is what your external anatomy is, is actually not
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: always correlated with the feeling inside of who you are
• 47:48
  Speaker 5: or the feeling of who you're sexually aroused by. That
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: often comes up initially you can feel it when you're
• 47:55
  Speaker 5: four or five. Then it kind of goes quiet for
• 47:57
  Speaker 5: a little while, but then it gets really active around
• 47:59
  Speaker 5: eleven twelve thirteen when adolescence hits. So you know, sexual
• 48:03
  Speaker 5: orientation is the phrase we use for who you're sexually
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: attracted to, and so it can be for people of
• 48:11
  Speaker 5: your same assigned sex, and you call that one thing
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: or different assigned sex, and we call that something else
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: and so being open to your sexual orientation who you're
• 48:22
  Speaker 5: attracted to, that's one thing. So when you use a
• 48:24
  Speaker 5: word like bisexual, that's different than the they them stories,
• 48:29
  Speaker 5: So that should we should just be really clear about that.
• 48:31
  Speaker 5: So the day them is about gender identity. What I'd
• 48:34
  Speaker 5: like to do if Monica Herod ask her, but I'll
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: ask you, Catherine and you Chelsea about this. You know,
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: people have asked me to put my gender identity in
• 48:43
  Speaker 5: my little box at the bottom of a zoom call
• 48:45
  Speaker 5: or any kind of platform. My mom and I thought
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: about it, and I thought, you know, I actually don't
• 48:52
  Speaker 5: feel like particularly a he. I don't feel like a she.
• 48:56
  Speaker 5: I don't feel like a they. Actually I barely feel
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: like a Dan. I know that's kind of an illusion too.
• 49:03
  Speaker 5: So I've been putting ABCD, which is like an abbreviation
• 49:07
  Speaker 5: for a body called Dan, you know, because even that's
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: an illusion. You know, we're all kind of manifestations of
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: the same essence popping up in a body for about
• 49:16
  Speaker 5: one hundred years.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: So one hundred Jesus Dan. I mean, yeah, well that's
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: a long time.
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: I know, I get superstitious. Okay, fine, So anyway, let's
• 49:29
  Speaker 5: just put it that way, you know. So I say
• 49:33
  Speaker 5: that because the world needs us to broaden our identity
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: from just the bodies we're in and realize in terms
• 49:40
  Speaker 5: of racial justice, social justice issues, and racism. You know,
• 49:44
  Speaker 5: we're part of one human family, and also we're part
• 49:48
  Speaker 5: of the family of all living beings in terms of
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: what we're destroying biodiversity in the climate. So yeah, they say,
• 49:54
  Speaker 5: say whether you're he or she or they, and I go, well,
• 49:57
  Speaker 5: actually I want to say none of the above. There's
• 50:00
  Speaker 5: a lot to write, and then it gets people angry.
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: So when I don't put it on my little name tag,
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: it's not it's not because I'm being like dismissive of it.
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: I actually I don't want to be put into buying.
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: So I don't know how do the two of you
• 50:16
  Speaker 5: feel when people ask you to do that, because it's
• 50:18
  Speaker 5: it's a personal, very personal thing.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Catherine, you identify, right, you label that I know on
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: your emails.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I do.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: I do it really as a support for people who
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: may not use traditional pronouns.
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: And it was tricky for me in the beginning.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: I have a few friends who are non binary, and
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: it was tricky in the beginning, and now just after
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: practicing it sort of suddenly feels like the most natural
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: thing in the world. Like said to my husband's day.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: You know, we're going to our friend Ash's birthday and
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: it's at you know, seven o'clock, and they want us
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: to be there. Da da da da, And it just
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: suddenly feels like the most natural thing in the world
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: to use those pronouns for someone else. It takes a
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: little bit of practice, but you can come around.
• 51:07
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: And more importantly, it's important to respect people's decisions about themselves.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Whether it's a fad or a trend. That's not your
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: decision either. Even though you're a parent, you don't get
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: to decide if it's a fad or a trend. But
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: respecting your child's decision and respecting their choices goes a
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: long way into the future of your relationship with your child.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: When you give them agency and you give them license
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: to be themselves, then it's not going to be a
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: problem if in five years she's like he or she
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: or they decides that they want to be referred to
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: as a girl again, or that they're not they don't
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: feel non binary or any of it. But I think
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: you are doing your child a disservice when you're not
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: respecting something. That is not an easy thing for them
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: to say. It's not easy for that. You have to
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: think about that, you know, and you can say you're supportive,
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: but that you're not. You don't feel comfortable calling them
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: they is actually not really being supportive.
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: And the other thing too, is it's not a huge
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: thing to give away. You know, it's not changing who
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: your child is fundamentally. It's not a wild leap to say,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just going to go with this.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say they them. I might slip up,
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: but I'm going to try my best. And you know,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: supporting your child's in whatever way you can. And like
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Chelsea said, these things.
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: Can pass or maybe they won't.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: And you're allowing your child to discover who they are
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: by supporting who they are right now, because that is
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: always going to change. Whether their pronouns change or not,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: they're going to continue to change.
• 52:40
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 52:40
  Speaker 5: I concur with what you're both saying. And I think
• 52:44
  Speaker 5: it becomes challenging when parents get really upset. When some schools,
• 52:49
  Speaker 5: like here in Los Angeles, they'll have a whole day
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: of discussing gender identity and that you have choices of
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: names you used and you should look inward, which I
• 52:59
  Speaker 5: think is actually fantastic. And some parents get all agitated
• 53:02
  Speaker 5: about it because they think it is making a child
• 53:07
  Speaker 5: be confused, but it's actually, I think just informing a
• 53:11
  Speaker 5: child and freeing a child like Monica's daughter is or
• 53:16
  Speaker 5: I don't know if you do use the words daughter
• 53:18
  Speaker 5: here Monica's child. Let's say that way. So we have
• 53:22
  Speaker 5: a moment where as a parent you can take a
• 53:25
  Speaker 5: deep breath and say, if your child comes to you,
• 53:27
  Speaker 5: to empower them, to explore the actual biological reality that
• 53:32
  Speaker 5: gender identity is independent of assigned sex at birth. People.
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: I remember when I was a kid where that wasn't
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: a part of our discussion. They suffered so much. And
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: when schools introduced this or this podcast or all the
• 53:49
  Speaker 5: ways we can just make it a part of our conversation.
• 53:52
  Speaker 5: It is a biological fact that gender identity develops in
• 53:57
  Speaker 5: its own way that can be independent in an extreme
• 54:02
  Speaker 5: or subtlely or aligned with yours signed sex. So to
• 54:06
  Speaker 5: name it as something that's very real in our lives,
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: I think is going to really help with everyone. Even
• 54:12
  Speaker 5: if your gender identity matches your signed sex, You're going
• 54:15
  Speaker 5: to understand that there are other people where that's not
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: the case, and instead of feeling uncomfortable like Monica feels,
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: which you know, we feel uncomfortable when things don't match
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: your expectations. So I hope listening to this conversation will
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: help Monica and her child's bother to feel we're learning
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: something to and to be lifelong learners is a really
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: important stance today.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Our last color today is Katie. Katie says, Dear Chelsea,
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: the last nearly two years of my life have been
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: the most intense, devastating and transformational time of my entire
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: twenty one years. In member of twenty twenty, my older
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: brother and only sibling died extremely suddenly from a brain
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: aneurysm at twenty two years old. Needless to say, this
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: loss has been extremely difficult to navigate and my entire
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: outlook on life has completely changed.
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: I know you were very.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Young when you lost your brother, and I feel as
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: though we were similar in how that type of loss
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: affected us. After the first few months of complete shock
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: and fear that I would lose my parents to heartbreak
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: over the death of their son, I started to get
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: really angry at the world, which was completely unlike my
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: old self. I have done a lot of therapy to
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: overcome some of that anger, but I still struggled daily
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: to comprehend how my smart, wonderful, and seemingly perfectly healthy
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: brother is gone and never coming back. I also find
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: meeting new people to be emotionally draining, as sometimes the
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: do you have siblings question comes up, and without fail
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: this always makes me spiral. I feel nervous opening up
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: about my brother because I feel like people in their
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: early twenties are not equipped to talk about loss and death.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: It's almost taboo in some ways. What has helped you
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: with accepting and understanding such severe and sudden loss at
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: such a young age, And how do I combat how
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: his death has caused me to struggle with coping in
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: other areas of my life?
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Katie, Hi, Katie, Hi, Hi Katie.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: It's your lucky day because my psychiatrist Dan is here
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: with us as our guest today. Oh wow, who helped
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: guide me through my grief and my new reality which
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: I had. You know a lot of delayed grief, So
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: it's good that you're talking about it not so long
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: after it's happening, and that you're facing these issues because
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: it's it is a big, big, unexpected obstacle that has
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: happened to you, you know, and it's not something that
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: you're not going to get through, but it's so difficult
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: and only other people who have lost the sibling can
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: really relate or understand. So Dan, do you want to
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: take the lead on this and I'll chime in sure.
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: First of all, Katie, thank you so much for reaching
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: out to Chelsea to really share your experience and share
• 57:03
  Speaker 5: your question. I'll ask you, when you were actually putting
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: this question together and sending it off, what were you
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: feeling inside of you that allowed you to feel like
• 57:14
  Speaker 5: you could articulate it in a sense go public with it.
• 57:17
  Speaker 5: What was going on inside of you?
• 57:20
  Speaker 7: It was, honestly, Chelsea, because I watched Evolution with my mom,
• 57:25
  Speaker 7: and I don't think either of us had ever really
• 57:27
  Speaker 7: seen somebody talk about death like so raw and just
• 57:30
  Speaker 7: so open like that. And I don't know, it just
• 57:34
  Speaker 7: like really spoke to me and we didn't say a
• 57:36
  Speaker 7: word the entire time. All we did was cry and laugh,
• 57:39
  Speaker 7: and yeah, I don't know. I just felt so kind
• 57:42
  Speaker 7: of like I felt empowered by it, and I was like,
• 57:44
  Speaker 7: you know, what, I'd love to talk to her because
• 57:46
  Speaker 7: there was a lot of parallels between what you were
• 57:48
  Speaker 7: saying and what I've definitely been feeling, and so yeah,
• 57:51
  Speaker 7: I definitely felt like there was like a bit of
• 57:53
  Speaker 7: a connection there. And like you guys said, like, not
• 57:55
  Speaker 7: a lot of people go through what I've gone through
• 57:58
  Speaker 7: and Chelsea has, So yeah, definitely that was empowering for
• 58:02
  Speaker 7: me when.
• 58:03
  Speaker 5: You saw that someone could really look at the death
• 58:07
  Speaker 5: of a sibling. In this case, you both shared the
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: loss of your brothers. Was there something in what Chelsea
• 58:14
  Speaker 5: shared an evolution that especially spoke to you?
• 58:18
  Speaker 7: Yeah. Absolutely. I think the main thing was like the anger,
• 58:22
  Speaker 7: because I was never an angry person. I was always
• 58:25
  Speaker 7: really calm, you know, quite put together and everything, and
• 58:27
  Speaker 7: then I started to have these feelings of anger when
• 58:30
  Speaker 7: the numbness started to go away, and it just was
• 58:33
  Speaker 7: so unlike me, and I was just so kind of
• 58:35
  Speaker 7: mad at the world like that it took him because
• 58:38
  Speaker 7: he was just such a wonderful, kind human and he
• 58:42
  Speaker 7: truly just like he was just such a light in
• 58:45
  Speaker 7: this world and it just felt so wrong. And so
• 58:48
  Speaker 7: the anger that she had and how that leaks into
• 58:50
  Speaker 7: other areas of your life I think that's kind of
• 58:52
  Speaker 7: where I drew like a lot, like I just I
• 58:55
  Speaker 7: just totally connected to that because it was like, WHOA,
• 58:58
  Speaker 7: this is affecting how I see every area of my life,
• 59:02
  Speaker 7: not just death and loss. It was you know, in
• 59:04
  Speaker 7: school with friends everything. Then bitterness too when people talked
• 59:09
  Speaker 7: about like their siblings, and it was like, I'm self
• 59:11
  Speaker 7: aware enough to know, like, it's not right. I don't
• 59:14
  Speaker 7: want to be bitter about other people because they should
• 59:16
  Speaker 7: get to express their love for their siblings that are alive,
• 59:18
  Speaker 7: and that makes me happy. I'm still happy for them,
• 59:21
  Speaker 7: but I couldn't help but still feel bitter, you know,
• 59:24
  Speaker 7: and angry. So definitely those feelings of anger that Chelsea
• 59:28
  Speaker 7: talked about, I definitely connected to that a lot. That's
• 59:31
  Speaker 7: what made me start to realize WHOA like I got
• 59:33
  Speaker 7: to I have to seek out like therapy and stuff
• 59:35
  Speaker 7: like that because I tried to do it myself for
• 59:38
  Speaker 7: I think the first eight months, and yeah, it just
• 59:41
  Speaker 7: wasn't working and I could just see down the line
• 59:43
  Speaker 7: it would just start to get worse.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: I want to just jump in and just say, you
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: have such a huge opportunity for growth right now for
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: you to be facing this so soon after it happened,
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: means like you have such a bigger advantage, Like I
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: didn't face this. I went thirty years without being able
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: to deal with my emotions, you know. So you're so
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: young and you're vibrant, and you're going to be able
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: to get through this. And I just want to say
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: something that's so important for you to hear. It's like,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: when you think of how amazing your brother was and
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: what a light he was in this world, he would
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: hate to see you in pain. He would hate to
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: see you feeling bitter.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: He would not want that.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: So in honor of him, you've got to do the
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: work to get yourself out of that anger and bitterness,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: because you want to be able to celebrate a life
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: that he had and live your life with him in it,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: in honor of him and with him, because he's still
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: with you.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just because he's gone doesn't mean he's gone from you.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: He's still within you and your parents, and that is
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: a beautiful thing, and that is the like that you
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: should think about getting to spread when you move forward
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: in your life.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 7: Yeah. Absolutely, And he truly would be so unhappy, he
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 7: would be so upset if he saw like this affect
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 7: us long term because again like just such a selfless
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 7: human being, and he just would not he would he'd
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 7: be angry with us, to be honest, if we let
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 7: it get us down for a really long time, he
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 7: would not be happy with us for sure.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 5: It's such a beautiful invitation of Katie that you're inviting
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 5: us to really look this question what helped? And Chelsea,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: you're bringing up, you know, this notion of what the sibling,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 5: what the brother would actually want for you. The experience
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 5: of grief, which is the word we use for when
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 5: someone we love that's really important our life dies or
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 5: goes away and we can't reach them. That loss is huge.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: So grief goes through stages and it really invites you
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: to bring into awareness all the different feelings you're having.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 5: And as Chelsea points out, you know you are doing that, Katie,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 5: and your notion of self awareness is really important and
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: there are things you can do to expand that. You know,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: with Chelsea we would do meditation in particular, this thing
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 5: called the wheel of awareness. You can get this book
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: called Aware or Becoming Aware, the workbook where you will
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 5: learn to actually enrich that ability to be aware and
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 5: that can help the grief process. To just let the
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: anger there be in awareness. You don't have to do
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: anything with it. It can just teach you something. The
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 5: other emotions that are really basic when something like this
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 5: happens are sadness and fear. So a loss like this
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 5: at a young age that can rock your world because
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 5: you don't expect someone young to die. You expect someone older,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 5: way older to die. So when something unexpected like that happens,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 5: it can lead to fear, It can lead to sadness,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 5: and it can lead to anger where the fear is like,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 5: oh my god, things aren't safe, nothing, I can't rely
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 5: on anything. The sadness is there was a connection that's
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 5: ripped from me, and I have such a longing to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 5: be with my brother, but it's it's not there, when
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: in fact it's just like Chelsea said, he's inside you,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 5: but him being alive in his body now that's changed.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 5: So you want to deal with that feeling. You can't
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 5: just call him up and talk to his actual self.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 5: You can deal with the inner self of your brother.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 5: And the anger, you know, is about something is wrong
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 5: that needs to be righted right. So anger is like
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: this drive to correct you know sadness is like a
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 5: drive to connect, and in many ways, fear is a
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 5: drive to protect. Right, those are the three in the brain.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 5: They're deep, deep in the brain, so they're really really foundational.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 5: As you're pointing out, the anger then starts spreading over
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 5: all these things. So the idea of finding a practice,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 5: whether it's in therapy or doing like a meditation that
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 5: gives you time to just be with your emotions. And
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: then the grief process once you give yourself that respect
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 5: to just feel what you feel, talk about it, write
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 5: in a journal about it, do meditative, reflect the reflection
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 5: on it. Then it will have its natural course. Don't
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: worry about the timing, but do give respect to all
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: the emotions are there, and they will then take their
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 5: natural path. And in many ways, grief as it goes
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 5: forward becomes meaning making. That is, you say, I didn't
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: plan for my brother to die, but my brother would
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 5: want me to actually make sense of how this has
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 5: impacted me. And as Chelsea has done, you know, with
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 5: her wonderful work. Now to take a loss that really
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 5: as you've shared with the world, Chelsea, you know, your
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 5: way of dealing with that pain was to shut it
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 5: off the emotions, but now to share with the world.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 5: You don't know, Katie, how the sadness and really profound
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 5: loss of your brother dying unexpectedly like this. It was
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 5: no one's fault, aneurisms happened. All the ways that you
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 5: can bring the emotional learning from this will be a
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 5: meaning that you can make this. There's a number of
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 5: things about hope and about joy that there are wonderful
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 5: books on this. There's it called a book called the
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 5: Book of Hope and a Book of Joy that I
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: think you'd love because what it says is that the
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 5: sorrows in the world, whether it's a personal loss or
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: the loss in biodiversity with what we're facing the climate,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 5: or the challenges of social justice, all these can get
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 5: us all angry, sad, fearful. And what we want to
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 5: do is take those emotions and allow ourselves to feel
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 5: them fully, but then really keep hope alive, a kind
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 5: of active hope that a writer named Joanna Masi calls
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 5: it active hope, where you're really turning that pain into
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: actually something positive in the world, and not only having hope,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 5: but having a sense of joy. And I think if
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 5: your brother were watching us now and he said, my
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 5: dear sister Katie can hold on to hope and can
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 5: be joyful in this life. What would he feel about that?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a really good point, Alice Tears, That's really good. Yeah,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 7: I honestly like you bring up a really good point too,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 7: in the fact that, like I have grown, like so
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 7: much from this loss, and like the way I view
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 7: the world in good ways too, and my desire to
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 7: make my parents proud, even though I know I would
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 7: make them proud if I did nothing, because they're just
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 7: the most wonderful people in the entire world. But yeah,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 7: like he really has allowed me to see the world
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 7: so much clearer, and I just feel like I'm going
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 7: to do such great things because I've grown so much
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 7: from this And yeah, you're right, like it is it
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 7: is a choice too to wake up every single day
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 7: and you know, choose happiness despite all the pain. And
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 7: that's what I've really been working on, is just choosing
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 7: to be happy because at the end of the day,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 7: you know, like the random cruelty of him being taken away,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 7: it has to be a choice for me to keep
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 7: going and to do it for him and to do
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 7: it for my parents. And I find that that's really
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 7: helped me too, is like letting myself feel those emotions
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 7: and yeah, growing from it, like you said, like it
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 7: is there's power in that.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: There's also something Dan taught me. Losing somebody is like
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: a robbery. You've been robbed, you know, and that's how
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: it feels. It feels you're violated and you cannot make
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: sense of it. But are you going to spend your
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: entire life harboring such anger towards those robbers?
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Because are you going to
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: spend your energy doing that? No, you're not.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: You want to be a light for your parents. You
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: want to be help your parents heal. It's not your responsibility,
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: but you can. You know, you can be a light
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: for them as well. And when you're talking about emotions
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: coming up, something that Dan and I talked about a
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: lot was like, where are you feeling something?
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 7: You know?
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: Are you feeling it in your chest? Do you feel
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: it in your stomach?
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: Being in touch with your body and respecting yourself enough
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: to sit with it, you know, when you're overcome, you're
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: allowed to go outside and cry and sit there for
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: twenty minutes because once you extinguish it, there is a
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: lightness of that happens, and it's when you resist your
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: emotions where you get into trouble.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: So it's okay to feel all.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: Those emotions and let them out and know, okay, oh
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling Okay, I'm feeling this. Sometimes it takes thirty
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: seconds just to sit with yourself, and sometimes you need
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: an hour. Whatever it is you need, you know you
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: need and you'll know, but being respectful of that so
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: you're not repressing or suppressing anything so that it's not
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: creeping up on you later. You know that you're experiencing
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: everything and thinking about where it is in your body, like.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'm heavy in my chest right now. Okay, I
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: feel like I'm going to cry. Okay, now I'm going
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: to cry.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: It sounds almost pedantic in a way, but it's so
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: important to respect yourself and your emotions, and that's how
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: you get through something like this in a healthy way,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: because you are going to be in a place where
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: the pain is no longer as acute as it feels today.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: You are That's what happens with life. You're going to
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: move on. There are going to be moments where you're
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: going to feel.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: Dream joy again, and you may already have and that's
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: part of healing. That's part of healing because you're still here,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: so everything that is coming up, it's just you know,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: you obviously want to be with a therapist and talking
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: with somebody too. You need that kind of support right
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: now for sure?
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: Are you seeing someone right now?
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 7: Yeah? Yeah, I have a therapist, yeah yeah, and she's
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 7: really great. Yeah.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: So all of those things are helpful, and just you know,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: remembering that there is no wrong feeling or emotion.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: There's nothing wrong. This is all just a process and
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: it doesn't last forever.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 7: No, that's really great, Like, thank you, And I just
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 7: want to say thank you to you as well, because honestly, yeah,
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 7: like listening to your podcast and watching your stand up
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 7: has really helped me a lot, and I just think
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 7: it's so brave of you and yeah, again, really empowered
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 7: me as well.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you called in, and I'm so glad
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: we had Dan here today for you, Katy.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 7: Yeah, it was so nice to meet you as well.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: Dan.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Katie, nice to meet you. Thank
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 5: you so much.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks Katie, bye bye bye.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: Wow what a sweetie. Yeah wow?
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, Well ah, well, that was quite a heavy episode.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Today it was I do have one little extra thing
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: as we move into this close. Kelsey emailed us and said,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: I recently went through a massive life change which led
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: me to changing careers, moving states, and finally getting out
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: of a long term toxic relationship. I read life Will
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: be the Death of Me, and it inspired me to
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: get back into therapy and really try to delve into
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: the deep childhood trauma. Your story resonated with me. I
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: was sitting outside my therapist office today and debated going
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: in and was questioning whether this was where I needed
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: to be. I put out into the world that I
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: needed a sign. I went into therapy and halfway through,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: my therapist pulled out an orange out of her bag,
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: tossed it to me, and said, I think you need
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: this today. I stared at her and sh and then
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: subsequently lost it, and then had to explain that I
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: was inspired to get back into therapy after reading Chelsea's
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: book and that someone tossing me an orange was an
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: unexpected sign of compassion when I needed it the most,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: and orange unraveled me and gave me the sign that
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: I'm exactly where I need to be. Our journeys are
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: not the same, but thank you for sharing yours and
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: inspiring me to heal so that I can find my
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: happy and success as well. It's already working. Much love
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: and admiration, Kelsey.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, that makes me cry. Dan, Can you
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: believe that?
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 5: No, that's incredible, that is so beautiful.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: I was sitting the other day I got some shitty news.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: I was sitting the other day with Joe and we
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: were somewhere. Oh yeah, it was when I had to
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: go to the hospital. And when the next day we
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: were sitting down, I was just like, oh my god,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: what's wrong with me?
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: I'm so stressed out. I landed myself in the hospital.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: Like I didn't think I was stressed out. And we
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: were just sitting in this restaurant and at a hotel.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: And I was just looking at him, like just so
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: confused about where I was in my life, Like I
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: thought I was doing so great and I was on
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: top of everything and I had learned how to deal
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: with everything. And I looked down and there's this whole
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: tree of oranges right behind him, my goodness, and I
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, and I go look and
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: he's like see you're okay.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: You're okay, You're always okay. It's just a little hiccup.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: So I love that. Oh, Kelsey, thanks for sharing that
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: with us. That was so nice, so emotional. I love it.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, let's take a quick break because I just
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: I have a new loofah that I want to try
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: out on Catherine. I'm sorry, does that sound like workplace?
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: Workplace professionalism? Times have changed and someone has to respect that,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: and that's someone is me.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: That's right. So I apologize Catherine about the lufa comment.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: It's okay, I love I love it.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: I'm bad.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: I apologize to you too about the lufa comment. Gosh,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: that's your husband right in front of I know.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: It's okay, he wouldn't mind. It'll be fine, It'll be fine.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: Let's take a break. Okay, Dan, what advice do you
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: need from me?
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 5: Well, I asked you earlier. You know, how do you
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 5: keep that lifelong learning approach going? And the related thing
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 5: was how did you let yourself be open to really
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 5: facing your emotional life? There? And then a bonus question
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 5: for you, which from our relationship you'll probably think this
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 5: is Stan.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: Is never short winded.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 5: Everybody particular is how did humor enter your life? So
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 5: we can try to be inspired, not to be funny
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 5: stand ups like you are, but to just make sure
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 5: that in the face of all the challenges we keep
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 5: our humor alive.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, God, I don't know if you can. I don't
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: know if that's a learned thing or if that's inherent.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: You know. I think I was born with that because
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: my family was just We're all like that, Like sarcasm
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: was was our function, you know, like everything was sarcastic
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: to deal with the lameness like we just are were
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: constantly like, oh, like our parents were lame.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: Growing up was just lame.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: Our birthdays our parents trying to like celebrate our birthdays
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: was lame. So we just had these built in senses
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: of humor to cope with it. But I don't I
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: can't really speak to whether or not you can, you know,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: adopt it. I think it's important to remember not to
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: take yourself so seriously. Right, You're not the only person
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: on this planet. There's a million billions of things going
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: on around you, and you're just what you want to
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: bring is light and happiness and joyfulness, right to the table,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: to the energy field around you, to the people that
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: you come in contact with. So I think humor plays
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: into that. To be light and happy and set a
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: tone and inspire people to be open and yeah, I
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: guess you know. Just try not to take yourself so seriously.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: You got to be able to laugh at all the
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: bad stuff too, because there's humor and everything. Sometimes you
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: have to look a little harder for it, but.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 5: It's there, beautiful. Well, that's great because that actually relates
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 5: to the other questions that you've already answered. You know
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 5: how to keep those questions going and really keep an
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 5: open mind to grow throughout life. So Chelsea, thank you
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 5: so much. Catherine, thank you so much. It's really an
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 5: honor to be here with you and really a joy
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 5: to speak with all the people who had questions today,
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 5: and I feel very privileged to be here. So thank you.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 6: Dan.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: I know that you usually charge for this kind of advice,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: so I appreciate you volunteering your services.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 5: Well, I feel like I'm enriched just like working with you, Chelsea.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 5: This has really been a great conversation today.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: Thank you awesome. Thank you so much.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 5: Dan.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: I really appreciate it. I'll see you soon.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 5: Great, you will.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: Thanks Katherine, thank you so much for tuning in to
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: der Chelsea Season two. We'll be back with another season
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: May twelfth.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: See then,