Latest / Drawn of History / Andrew Huberman _ This Past Weekend w_ Theo Von _585(M4A_128K)

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Andrew Huberman _ This Past Weekend w_ Theo Von _585(M4A_128K) · Drawn of History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Today's guest is a neuroscientist. He's a professor. He's a podcaster.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: He hosts one of the biggest shows in the world
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: called Huberman Lab, where he focuses on helping us to
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: become our best selves and get the most out of
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: our bodies. I believe that he's one of the people
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: who's responsible for bringing health and self-evaluation into the mainstream.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I'm grateful for the chance to finally link up Today
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: with the one and only Andrew Huberman.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Whitney's been amazing to me since I moved to L.A.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: She kind of ushered me in. I didn't really understand L.A.,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I moved to Topanga during the pandemic, set up there
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: with my bulldog, started doing the podcast in a closet.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: And she, she kind of taught me about LA and
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: I'd never done anything public facing.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Let's start. We can talk.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we can do it, but we can talk. I mean,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I think we should mention how, what a cute baby
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Henry is. That kid is so cute.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, the baby is beautiful. I think bring up Henry,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: bring up Henry Cummins. Or I don't even know if
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: it has a stage. You know, I have no idea
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: if the baby has a front name or last name.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it's Henry Cummings.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Oh my God. That's beautiful. Oh yeah. Look at him.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: He's got your haircut. Wow. And you can tell he
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: cuts it himself too. Yeah.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: He's a, I've, you know, I've met him and he's
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: just such a good natured kid.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: He looks AI right there. He looks like Dermot Kennedy
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: a little as well there.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: He's a, he loves animals, which is great. Cause she's,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: you know, surrounded herself with animals. Are you trying to
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: attack a resemblance there?
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying the child has a slight resemblance to
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: the remarkable crooner Dermot Kennedy. And look, whoa, hold on. Whoa, bro.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to call my sponsor, dude. Oh,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: that's a great photo. That is super cool. Yeah.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I think that last shirt says, I think that's that
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: shirt says single mom.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Ooh.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: It's like a rock and roll. Whitney's a punk rocker.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: We have a lot of friends through the punk rock community.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah?
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she sometimes posts with Chris Cole,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: who's a guy I grew up watching skateboarding. I think
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: he's in the Tony Hawk Skateboarder game.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Is he? Bring up a picture of Chris Cole. I've
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: heard of Nat King Cole, and I've heard of Cole.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: There he is.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a beast.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Famous for doing Trey Flipdown Wallenberg, which in the Bay Area,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Wallenberg School is famous for stair. Huge. Huge.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: So he, you know, he's- Wallenberg, it's a staircase? It's
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: a school.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: And so they call it Wallenberg for skate. I grew
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: up skateboarding and there it is. Wallenberg's the third one
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: down there, right? Oh yeah. So this is like, this
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: is one of the things that made Chris legendary. That
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: and he always had those silly wristbands on, not wrist guards, wristbands.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: But this is a long time ago. That's a lot
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: bigger than it might look. No, it's- And you actually
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: have to, now they build roll-ins, but you, back then
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: you would push in down the avenues.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: This is so sick. It's just him trying it over
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: and over and over and over. And you can kind
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: of start even just watching this, you start to gain the.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: And it's all bolts as they say, he's Lance perfect.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: God, it's just so crazy how many times it's just
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: such a little piece of perfection. It's like just such
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: an organized, specific moment, like the point of a pin
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: when they when they land those things.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Super satisfying to watch. It's got to feel incredible.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. He looks a little bit like
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: your assistant that came in today, too.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, he does look a little bit like Greg.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: You're right.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: They have a resemblance.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: They look a little bit like Greg, dude. Yeah, and
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: they're friends, so that's interesting. But yeah, that baby, God,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I would have loved to have been her son or
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: just had a change. Yeah, I'm glad that, yeah, I'm
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: happy that she has a baby.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: She's got that menagerie of animals, like Mona, her pit
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: bull Ridgeback mix, I love. I also have a close
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: relationship to her great Dane, Frank.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, let me see that.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Like right now, I don't have a dog. So a
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: little while ago, I was like, I need some dog time.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: So I went over there and he thinks he's a puppy.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: And he crawled up on me on the couch. And
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: that's a different one. Frank's gray, but- That one's mixed.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: There he is.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: That's probably Frank. And I woke up at two in
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: the morning. She'd covered us with a blanket on the
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: sofa and Frank was breathing into my face. And it
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: was a moment, but I love Great Danes because they
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: think they're little dogs, but they're giant dogs. So anyway-
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Never a dull moment at Casa de Cummings.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: No, she's always at excitement and she definitely will free
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: an animal if there's even, you know, she'll release a
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: damn animal from anything.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, if she hears that there's like a dog running
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: around in the street or I think this is right.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Check me on this. We'll have to ask her. But
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: a while back, I think that she was trying to
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: rescue a giraffe. You know, you get these wealthy people
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: that have exotic animals. They want a giraffe or an
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: elephant or something.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: So sure.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: She'll drop everything and like go try and rescue a giraffe.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: She's a real animal lover. She's definitely, uh, who's the guy,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: William Wordsworth or whatever. Who's no, who had the animal movie? Dr. Doolittle.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: She's like the female Dr. Doolittle.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I can talk to the animals. Yeah.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: I would love to see her do show just for animals,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: even like a live performance just for animals and, and
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: see how it goes. But yeah, she'll, she'll pet anything,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: but I'm glad she's got that beautiful baby over there.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Um, Andrew Huberman, good to see you, dude. Great to
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: meet you in person. Finally, we've corresponded a little bit,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: but you too, man, I'm a big fan. And I, uh,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: heard your name mentioned at the inauguration of the president
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: of the United States. And I went, this is wild
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: worlds colliding, right? I think Dana White mentioned Joe Rogan
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: and you at the inauguration of the most powerful person.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: In the, in the world. And, and, and who else?
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. The milk boys.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Well, he mentioned us and the Noteboys, and then he mentioned,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: and the most powerful person, Joe Rogan. We definitely were
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: like some satellites in the orbit, but it was really
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: sweet of him. I mean, I think you catch Dana
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: White at 2 a.m., you know, and he'll drop some
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: different names and stuff. But yeah, that was crazy when
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: that happened. I remember my ex-girlfriend's mom just texted me like,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: they just mentioned you on the inauguration address or something.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: And I was like, what is going on that podcasting
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: has become this thing is just such a part of
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: the universe, you know? Um, what do you think it is?
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: You know, like, what do you think it is? Cause
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: you may even have more of a scientific look at it. Uh,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: why is podcasting just, it's as, it's as common as
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: like somebody saying the New York times five years ago.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts about this. Uh,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: first of all, it's interesting that we looked at skateboarding earlier.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: I've been lucky enough to get in on some things
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: in the early phase, not the very earliest, but the
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: early phase when things were kind of small and there
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: wasn't a lot of money at first. And then things
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: kind of blow up. When I was younger, I got
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: into skateboarding. Every kid in my town played soccer, swam.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: I got really excited about skateboarding when it was kind
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: of at a low point in terms of like, there
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: weren't a lot of kids skateboarding. It had gone through
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: a phase of popularity. Then it had died in the
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: early nineties.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: What town was that you're in?
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I grew up in the South Bay area. So this
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: is what now is known as South Palo Alto before
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: the internet. Um, so You know, we worked hard when
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: we were in high school to get a skate park
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: put in. There weren't many skate parks. It was really small.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: We used to take the 7F bus up to San Francisco,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the famed Embarcadero or EMB crowd. This is where people
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: like Rob Dyrdek would show up. Back then, he didn't
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: have his show. Actually, the photographer for my podcast, my playback,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: was taking photos of all those guys. A lot of
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: those guys now went on to have, well, Rob Dyrdek's famous,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: has his own show, Ridiculousness, and has done a bunch
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: of other things, Robin Bigg. Tony Hawk, of course, has
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: lasted through all the peaks and valleys of skateboarding.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Pretty impressive.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: You know, so back then it was really small. I
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: was going to contests where I met Frank Hawk. Tony's
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: dad was kind of running it a little bit like.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: A baseball league. Bring up a picture of Frank Hawk.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Frank and Nancy Hawk. I'll tell you a funny story, actually.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: When I was 14, I went to a contest at
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: the Linda Vista Boys Club out in the middle of nowhere.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: And when the.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Contest ended, I was 14. When the contest ended, Frank
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: came around and asked me and this kid, Billy Waldman,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: who was like, they called him the demon child. It's
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: kind of a wild one. And he was my friend. Um,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: if you put it, Billy Walden, demon child, he'll show up.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: You'll see it in his face. Watch this.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Ready?
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Look, that's what a demon child looks like. He was
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: a good kid, but in any case, um, what ended
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: up happening was Frank was like, Hey, where are.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: You guys going? And we're like, well, we don't know.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: I was going to take the bus to Lancaster, see
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: my friend Joe Rickabosh and somehow get home. And he
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: was like, no, no, you guys can't do that. He
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: was like a real protective dad. So he and Nancy
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Hawk took me in. I got to stay in Tony
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Hawk's bedroom that night with all the trophies everywhere. And
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: they took me out to dinner and I'll never forget.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: And this is how I got back in touch with
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Tony in recent years. They had black coffee after dinner
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: at like 8 PM. And I'd never seen that. So
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: a few years ago on Instagram, I wrote to Tony
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: and said, Hey, you know, your parents took me in
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: when I was a little bit stranded. And if you
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: don't believe me, they drink coffee at 8 30 PM
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: after dinner. And he wrote back and he goes, no way.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: You're the only person.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: The only way to know that is to actually have
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: have a meal with them. So anyway, you know, skateboarding
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: back then I got out of it. I wasn't very good.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: I got put on a team out of sympathy. I tried,
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: but I kept getting hurt.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: You say a team. What do you mean? Sponsored. And
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: I think the Dutch drink coffee late at night. Bring
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: that up real quick. Who's drinking coffee very late at night?
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Or see if Tony Hawk is Amsterdamian, if he's an Amsterdamian.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: I believe he looks Amsterdamian to me.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Tony is like six foot five.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: I know the Dutch are tall.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: And his son is tall as well. You couldn't pick
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: a more perfect last name for a professional skateboarder, right?
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Well, that's another reason I believe that he's, in addition
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: to his talent, which has helped him stay on the
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: test of time, is such a moniker. There's nothing like that.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Tony Hawk, it's... Tony is the most relatable name in
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: the world. And then just like, who don't want to
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: be like, Tony Hawk is a predominantly British Isles descent. Oh, damn.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: I was hoping we'd get him in Amsterdam. All right,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: that's all good. But yeah, so what were you saying, brother? Sorry. Yeah, no.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: So... got into that early and then got hurt.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: So I got sponsored by a little company called Thunder trucks,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: spitfire wheels. They put me on as sympathy. I'm still
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: friends with the team manager from back then. And he'll
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: tell you it was out of sympathy, but I got
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: to see a lot of friends turn pro start companies.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Danny way and Colin McKay started DC.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: DC, which eventually sold to Quicksilver. They did that also
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: with Ken block, who was a rally car driver, unfortunately
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: passed away a few years ago. He was the guy
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: that do Jim Kana, all the, driving around cities, you know, jump,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: you haven't seen Jim Connor in San Francisco. Oh man,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: we're bringing back all the stuff.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Well, this is awesome. Pull this up.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: So if you look at, um, if you look at
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: San Francisco, um, and you say Ken block, this is,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, so Ken unfortunately died in this snowmobile accident
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: a few years ago, but this on YouTube, um, is unbelievable.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: I would go to the middle of it to really
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: get a sense of.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: And so they would drive around.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: They basically just, wow. They shut down big segments of
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: the city. So that's down at the piers.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: And then.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: All this, look, 119 million views, all this aerial footage,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: why not just jump between two streets in San Francisco? Yeah,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: my friend Mike Blayback was the one photographing all this
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: for DC. So DC was initially skateboarding, Danny and Colin
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: and Danny's older brother, Damon. started DC. It is actually
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: stood for something called drawers clothing, but DC Danny Collin.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: And DC shoes, right? DC shoes.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: And then they went snowboarding, rally car, BMX, motocross, monster,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: you know, monster rockstar. All that was born out of
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: essentially skateboarding and BMX early on. Then X games took off.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of like how, you know, in the nineties,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: skateboarding was really small. Then it blew up, then it
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: dies a little bit and it keeps coming back.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Now it's in the Olympics. Okay.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: So when I got into neuroscience, because- That's my official job.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: I'm a professor of neuroscience up at Stanford. I don't
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: currently run my lab anymore. I tooled that down in
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: 2023 so I could focus more on the podcast, but
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I still teach medical students, graduate students.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: And undergraduates. Okay, so you're still practicing.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, and I ran a lab for more than
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: a decade and really got into science when I was
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: in college. I decided, listen, I'm not going to become
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: a professional skateboarder, not a musician. I got to do
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: something with my life. I got into biology and psychology,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: and I started working in a lab. And so even
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: when I got into neuroscience, it was early. There was
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: no such thing called a neuroscience degree or a neuroscientist.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: There was biology, there was genetics, but there wasn't something official.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Then came the decade of the brain and now neuroscience
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: is everywhere.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You hear about it a lot. Yeah. So when
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I didn't hear about it 10 years ago, for sure.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: You did not.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: And it really drew from people from different fields. And
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: then now we have a better, not complete, but we
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: can talk about better understanding of lots of different things, memory, addiction,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: et cetera. When I got into podcasting, I started my
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: podcast in 2021. As we were talking about before, it
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: was just, you know, small closet. I was living in Topanga,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: kind of self-appointed sabbatical. It was the pandemic.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Everything was shut down. And you had a dog.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: And my bulldog, a bulldog mastiff, Costello.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: And he passed away at some point?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: 2021, I had to put him down. I had to
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: do it myself. No, what are you talking about? At home,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I had them come. He hated the vet. You know,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, a bulldog's an amazing animal. The contract between
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: a bulldog and owner is very simple. They will die
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: for you. And you can feel that. They will die
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: for you. But if your life is not on the line,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: they're not doing shit at all.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: That's the contract.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: They will die for you. They also take a nap.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: There he is. They will also take a nap for you.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: They will take a nap for you. So he used
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: to just snore. You can hear him snoring in our
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: early episodes and fart. And, you know, that's what they do.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: But if there was a threat, they don't hesitate. You know,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: he was skunked something like 27 times because they don't learn.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: He was stung by bees? No, skunked. Oh, by skunks.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they always say there are two kinds of dogs,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: dogs that get skunked once and then all the other
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: kinds of dogs. But in any case, you know, we
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: started the podcast and we weren't thinking about, oh, we're
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: going to make money with this or it'll be a
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: big podcast. Sat down, put up a couple of cameras
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: and me and, you know, my, what I now call
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: my producer, but my friend Rob Moore just did that.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Mike Blayback from DC, because I knew people from skateboarding,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: he took the photos. And then what happened between 2021
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: and 2025 is you all, right? thanks in large part
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: to Joe, we could talk about, I have theories about
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: why Joe is the king of podcasting and the biggest
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: media channel on the planet, not just podcasting. What happened
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: was people wanted to hear conversation where it's not scripted
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: and where the ads and commercials are things that people
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: actually use. And it went from this little niche community
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: of comedians and people that like to talk about UFC
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Lex Friedman was the one that inspired me to start
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: a podcast. So he was my kind of my brother
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: in crime in terms of- Podcast Eskimo or whatever you
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: call it. Yeah, because he is an academic, right? I mean,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: he has a PhD. A lot of people don't know this,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: but it's Dr.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Lex Friedman.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: So he's not a medical doctor, but he has a PhD.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: And he was the AI computer science guy. And I
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: was the neuroscience guy, but then I'm also very interested
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: in health and health and fitness.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: But you guys didn't podcast together.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: No, we've done a few, but we were kind of
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: the science podcast.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, for sure.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: And then it just, you know, the comedians led the way, right?
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: You, Joe, you know. Mark Maron. Mark Maron.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: And then it just kind of.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Pete Holmes. Pete Holmes was a big one early. Remember
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Pete Holmes was before everybody. It was a very early podcast,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: but no, I, it's definitely gotten where, um, I think
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: it's nice not having people were like, you know, sometimes I'll,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: I'll see things. People seem like, Oh, this, this group,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: now you're working with this group or you're working with
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: this group or you've been like, uh, infiltrated by, uh,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: this country or this idea. It's like, no, I don't
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: work for anybody. It's just, I try my best, you know? And, and, um, Oh,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: you do an amazing job.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Cause it's so it's pure. So the, the parallels I
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: was setting up with skateboarding and neuroscience, and then this
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: I realized at some point, and I'll get accused of
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: name dropping, but I'm very blessed to be very close
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: friends with Rick Rubin. I spent a lot of time
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: with Rick, either here when he's in the States or.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Fascinating gentleman. Rick Rubin is, I know almost he's a
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: music producer. Yep, music producer.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: You know, he's also produced comedy. He worked with Andrew
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Dice Clay and he has great stories about that.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, I bet he does.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: You know, and so what's interesting is I talked to
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Rick about this. I was like, why is podcasting experiencing
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: this surge the question you asked and he said and
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: this is kind of how rick talks he he actually
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: talks like this he's like because it's real you know
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: people when they're when something's early they're not thinking about
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: how it's going to be received you're not thinking about
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: whether or not your corporate sponsors are going to be
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: happy this is why rick you know remember rick produced
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: beastie boys ll cool j beastie boys red hot chili
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: peppers adele kanye um He's doing classical music stuff now, country.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: And he tends to work with people at the beginning
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: and then not necessarily again, maybe on a song or two.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: And I asked him why. And he's like, because at
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: the beginning, they're in what Josh Waitzkin, the great chess player,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: has described as the pre-consciousness phase of creativity. You're not
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: trying to defend a title. You're not trying to defend
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: a title. You're not thinking about how it's going to
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: be received because you really have nothing to compare it to.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: You have nothing to lose.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, when Chris Cole... 360 flipped down Wallenberg. Someone
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: was filming it, right? But after he did that, I'm
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: sure that he thought about, God, like, how do I
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: like supersede that the next time? But when it's the
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: next big thing, you're just thinking about the next thing.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: And there's something really beautiful to that. And that's what
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: people tend to gravitate toward, whether or not it's media, podcasting, skateboarding, motocross,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I don't care what it is. We can feel when
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: something's real. In fact, Rick has this great saying, and
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I love it because- One time I saw this whole
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: thing in the media related to somebody I knew, and
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: it turned out that their whole company was just a
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: complete sham. At least that's what the media was claiming.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: And he said to me, he goes, it's all lies.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, apparently it's all lies.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: And he said, no, no, no, no.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Everything is made up. He said, there's only two things
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: that are true. Nature, like the laws of chemistry, biology, physics,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: and professional wrestling. He said, because everyone knows professional wrestling
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: is made up. And Rick watches 12 hours a week
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: of professional wrestling. And when I go and see him
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: and we watch professional wrestling, I'm like, why do you
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: watch so much professional wrestling? And he said, you know,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: it relaxes me. And also you can see all the
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: theater of life there. And he also likes that people
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: don't actually get hurt. But you're also wondering, wait, was
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: that really part of the act? And when you look
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: at politics or you look at the world, you know,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: a lot of it's made up like Bitcoin's on a
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: run today. Everyone's excited. It broke 109 or 110. I mean, great,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: but Bitcoin's made up. Right. I mean, its value is
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: dependent on people's kind of perceived value of it.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And so he's right. Everything basically is made up. And
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: so when you capture something that's real to a person,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: like a song and the way they sing it, and
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: they're not comparing it to the way they sang it
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: last time, they're not thinking about whether or not their
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: tour is bigger than the other big tour that's out there.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: There's something that I think really resonates with people. And
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: we just go, wow, like that's, you know, I see
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: it as like, that's the human spirit in action. It's
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: really beautiful.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like seeing a duck, like a little duck,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: try to take it, learn to fly or whatever, you know?
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: That's the funnest part. Once you see a duck flying,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: you're like, oh, it's fine. You know, it can fly.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: That's great or whatever. Looks cool, still beautiful. But seeing
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: that duck give those tries and take that shot out
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: of the nest or whatever, that's kind of like the
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: funnest part, you know?
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think that's the beauty of childhood, right?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: You know, is everything's new.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: And, you know, this is actually an interesting segue to
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: dopamine because, you know, dopamine– is triggered by a bunch
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: of things, but mostly by anticipation of something.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: So let me think about that. So dopamine is when
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: people say dopamine, cause you hear it all the time, right?
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Dopamine hits dopamine.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Right. You hear about dopamine or give it, you know,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: you're getting dopamine out of that. So what is it?
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: It's a, it's something that's in your body naturally. Okay. So,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and where is it hidden in your body behind your ears? Yeah, basically.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: So real quick lesson in dopamine. Dopamine is a neurochemical,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: some people call it neurotransmitter, neuromodulator, let's just say it's
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: a chemical.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Because it's a chemical. So it's a liquid.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, basically it's released from neurons, neurons are nerve cells,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: and it's going to bind to the next, it's going
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: to park in a parking spot, we call a receptor
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: on the next nerve cell, and trigger the activity of
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: that nerve cell. Nerve cells communicate through electricity and chemicals.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: The chemicals stimulate electricity.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Neurons can make the next neuron more active. They can
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: make the next neuron less active.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: So this is important.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: In fact, a good kind of mechanical example is if
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: you flex your bicep, you are inhibiting, you are preventing
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: the neurons that flex your tricep. They are antagonistic muscles.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: And as just kind of a parallel where we can
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: get to when you.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: For instance.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: smell something you like, it's what's called an appetitive response.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: It's kind of appetite. That inhibits the repulsion response. When
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: you smell vomit or something really putrid, you tend to
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: retract and it tends to shut down at the same
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: time the circuits that would bring you closer to something.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: So every circuit in the brain is like that. There's
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: a push and a pull, an accelerator and a brake.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: And if you do one, it limits the other.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, think of it like a seesaw. One goes up,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: the other goes down.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: You know, everything from, if you step on a pin,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: you move your foot up and guess what, what happens?
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Your other leg automatically extends. Okay, this is called the
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: monosynaptic stretch reflex. If you touch a fish on the side,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: there's a big old neuron, giant neuron called the Moudner neuron.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: And what does the fish do? It heads in the
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: opposite direction. This is just a, you know, these circuits
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: have been selected for because the dumb fish that went
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: toward the thing that touched it probably got eaten. So
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: all these responses are hardwired responses. This chemical dopamine exists
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: in a couple different places in your brain. It has
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: several roles. The most important ones to know about are
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: that it's involved in generating movement. People with Parkinson's lose
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: the neurons that create dopamine in an area called the
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: substantia nigra. If you were to cut open a human brain,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: you'd see two dark areas at the bottom of the brain.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: And in Latin, nigra, dark, black, is down at the
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: bottom of the brain. And those are the neurons that degenerate.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: And there's a picture of it, but maybe we can find,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: it's really impressive. You can see even without a microscope,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: if you just say, I don't know if you said
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: like actual brain tissue or something.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Look, so see that first, that first one, look at that.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: That's probably without any staining. You're just looking at the
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: brain with no microscope. In Parkinson's, those degenerate. You can
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: see it on the right. And what happens is when they're,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: so dopamine is critical for movement. And it's important to
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: keep that in mind because the other thing that dopamine
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: does is it's involved in a, a set of brain
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: circuits that are involved in motivation. So if you think
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: about any animal, human, dog, rat, cat, monkey, bat, that
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: animal has three choices for movement. You can move towards something,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: you can stay still, or you can move backward. Dopamine
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: is involved in motivation, not reward. So when you, like
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: what's something.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: That you really enjoy doing? Making quesadillas?
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Making quesadillas. When you get the ingredients and you put
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: them out, your dopamine is starting to rise. Okay, if
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: you're somebody who likes gambling, it's on the way to Vegas.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: You're walking in, you're getting your chips, it's the feel
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: of the chips, the dopamine's going up, okay? This is
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: a hardwired set of circuits that were designed to have
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: us do things that were adaptive. So dopamine starts to
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: rise in anticipation of food when we're hungry, cold when
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: we're hot, heat when we're cold, sex when we're horny, right?
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: And- It's going to be involved in anything that we
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: think is going to bring a feeling or a resource.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: So a lot of dopamine is based on perception. Absolutely.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: You nailed it.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: In fact, in fact, whether or not we're talking about Bitcoin,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: us dollars likes on Instagram or X followers views or
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: any of that, the currency is dopamine.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: There's one currency of motivation. So dopamine is about wanting
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: and craving, not about having, then something happens. You make
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: the case. Okay.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Hold on. Let me slow it down real quick. Cause
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: sometimes it's hard for me. So I know it might
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: be hard for some of our listeners, but so the
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: dopamine is, is based on the motivation. So it's not
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: about like the fact that when I'm sitting there and
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I'm making my quesadilla, like that's the, that's the dopamine
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: is like knowing that I'm going to get the quesadilla soon.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: That's dopamine. But then when I actually get the quesadilla, what? Okay.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: So it depends on the quesadilla. Let's go with three
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: different scenarios. And we could change out quesadilla here for
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: jackpot at the jack table.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Casino, sex.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Winning a UFC fight or winning the bet on the
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: UFC fight.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Being nervous about asking a girl out and then actually
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: doing it.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Comedy when you move to crowd work and you're like,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: this feels like I'm out on a tightrope.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: So any of those things, anything where there's a potential payoff.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Then something happens. Let's use the quesadilla example because it's straightforward.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: You have the quesadilla and it's pretty good. Tastes like
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: the quesadilla you usually make.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, what happens?
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Your dopamine starts dropping a little bit. Not a lot,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: but you're okay. It starts dropping. Let's say, just by
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: way of example, you eat four quesadillas. Each time, it's
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: going to be a little bit less dopamine from the
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: actual eating.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Of the quesadilla. Yeah, the second quesadilla, you can barely
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: even taste it sometimes.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Let's say you bite into the quesadilla and it's like, oh,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: this tastes weird. Like there's something off here. Dopamine plummets.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: So how much dopamine you get depends on the anticipation
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: minus what you actually get, something called reward prediction error.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: But the language doesn't really matter. That's a bunch of
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: nerd speak for when an experience is worse than you expected,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: your dopamine drops below where it started. When an experience
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: is better than you expected, Surprise, it's way above where
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: you started and it stays up there for a while.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: So the dopamine system loves surprise. Now, all of this
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: is related to learning. This is an ancient system designed
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: for you to learn where are the payoffs? Where's the water?
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Where's the food? Where are the mates? Where's the money?
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Where's the resources? These are ancient circuits that we are
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: doing non-ancient things with. And so for instance, You do
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: comedy tours, right? When you do your comedy tours and
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: like you really nail it one night, like really nail it,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: it does two things. It raises your baseline level of dopamine.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: So the next time you go out, you have confidence, right?
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: You're still feeling that. But it also raises the threshold
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: for dopamine, right? Now it's harder to get dopamine. You
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: can't have the same experiences that you had prior to
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: that really killer night and get the same amount of
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: dopamine that you used to.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: It's officially the best time of the year for Hoops fans.
• 28:09
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  Speaker 1: on over to Sonic. And now Sonic is taking a
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: stand against mediocre cheeseburgers. by proclaiming the Sonic Smasher, the
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: new smash-tional cheeseburger of America. And they want people across
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: the country to experience a better burger. Hand smashed and
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: made to order, the Sonic Smasher features Angus beef patties,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: seasoned and seared to perfection with crispy edges and a
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: juicy center, layered with melty American cheese, a creamy tangy signature,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Smasher sauce, crinkle cut pickles and diced onions all served
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: on a soft potato bun. Head to Sonic to try
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: the Sonic Smasher. Live free, eat Sonic.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: And when you think about dopamine, the most important thing
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: to think about is how quickly does it go up?
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: How quickly and how far does it go down? because
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: every time it goes up, it goes down.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Because remember earlier, we were saying everything's like a seesaw.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: If you feel motivated, there is, and this is so
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: important for people to understand, especially people with compulsions, addictions,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: and this kind of thing, the better it feels, the
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: lower you're going to feel afterwards, and the longer it
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: will take you to get back to baseline. So the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: drug of all drugs for this, to really nail home
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: dopamine as a concept.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Sex. Or what? Behaviorally, sex. You're right.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: So, and people have behavior addictions, process addictions. Methamphetamine. If
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: you were going to look at what creates the biggest
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: rise in dopamine, the fastest. So it's dopamine over time, okay?
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Because listen, when you write jokes- Or when I'm reading papers,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: I love reading science papers. I'm like mining for papers.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Every once in a while, I'll take a little break
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: and I'm super into cephalopods, octopuses. I'm building an octopus
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: tank at home right now. So that's kind of my
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: indulgence is octopus. It's a little bit of dopamine. Methamphetamine
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: is a huge rapid increase in dopamine.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Then what happened? How much do we get off that?
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Bring it up real quick. I just want to see
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: what is it?
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: So it's how fast it occurs. It occurs within minutes.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: This is why crack cocaine was so much more addictive
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: than snorted cocaine, right? It was the speed with which
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: it hits the system.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: How much dopamine does an activity release? Baseline is 100%.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Food is 150%. So an 50% increase. Video games? Um,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: 175% sex, 200.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: I disagree with sex, by the way. I think it
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: depends on, you know, if, if you're, and people should
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: know this, if you live with somebody and you guys
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: are having sex a lot and you've known each other
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: a long time, there's a lot of the reason why
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: people are like looking for novelty in their relationship, et cetera.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to be salacious here, but new sexual
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: partner is probably about 400, 500%.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: And, and I think most people would not dispute that.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Cocaine goes to 450% amphetamine, 1000%. methamphetamine, 1300%. That meth,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: that methyl group increases the speed. That speed increases dopamine.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: So it's almost the same. It could potentially almost be
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: kind of the same, but the speed at which it
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: happens is so much greater that it intensifies it so much.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Right. And remember that the brain is thinking in terms
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: of approach, pause, or retract. So when there's a ton
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: of dopamine, listen, anyone on cocaine or methamphetamine, everything's a.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Good idea to them. Oh, yeah, anything.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: And then you think about cannabis.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Cannabis has its own discussion, its own effects, but very
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: different system and tends to make people pretty happy with
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: right where they are. The opioids tends to make people
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: overly happy with right where they are. They tend to
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: be amotivated, not motivated. So dopamine in this context, what
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: happens is then dopamine drops below baseline after a drug
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: or porn, or even, you know, somebody's, you know, let's
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: say they make the huge mistake of like going outside
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: their marriage or prostitute or something, it's the anticipation, the fear,
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: the excitement, boom, then it drops below baseline. And now
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: here's the real rub. In order to get back to baseline,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: most people, when they're in that trough, what do they do?
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: They use more.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: But each time they use, while they're in that trough,
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: when dopamine is low, this is the key thing, when
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: dopamine is low, no matter how much you do of
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: that substance, no matter how much you engage in that behavior,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: that dopamine is gonna have less and less of an effect,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: and it's not even gonna get you above baseline. You
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: have to wait. The period of abstinence is when these
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: circuits return to normal. And with the exception of alcohol,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: where people can die from rapid withdrawal, this is why
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: every addiction recovery program has a period of abstinence. They
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: don't tell you to kind of taper off cocaine. They're like, listen,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: this has got to stop. And then when people relapse,
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: the problem is they get, no pun intended, they get
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: a bump, but that dopamine level is not where it
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: used to be. And they're constantly quote unquote chasing the
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: dragon or whatever you want to call it. So, you know,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: these dopamine circuits evolved for a good reason to drive
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: us toward adaptive behaviors. But listen, I have friends in
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: the tech sector, in the finance sector, you see this
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: in the finance guys. It's often finance guys, they're doing Adderall,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: they're day trading, they're night trading, you know, their friends
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: are making a ton of money. And we also have
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: the social comparison thing. So, I'm not going to say
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: that social media hijacks all of this, but let's just say,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: and I love social media. I'm on Instagram and X.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I teach there.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: I learn there.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Love your content. Love Segura's content.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Rogan.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm learning there. Tim Dillon, right?
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Like I'm, I love it. Yeah.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: But there are elements of this where if you find
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: yourself on social media, but you're kind of like, what
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: am I doing here? Like, this is like, nothing's happening here.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: you are in a dopamine trough.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: You're in a trough. You've already gotten your high.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: You've gotten it. And we hear dopamine hits. If it
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: were really dopamine hits, you'd be going, whoa, yeah, amazing, cool. No,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: that happens now and again. But what's happening is the
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: threshold for what really draws you in is getting higher
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: and higher.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Which goes to show why when it comes sometimes to
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: like sex addiction and pornography addiction that people's, what the
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: kink that they need or the thing they need to
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: see gets more out there. Because they have to, just
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: to even get back to the baseline, they have to,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: they've got to find more. They need a higher arc. Definitely.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: I had a couple questions, sorry. No, no. And say
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: where you're at. Can you distill dopamine? Like, is it manufacturable, dopamine?
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: There are things, yes. So there are things that are
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: precursors to dopamine and things that stimulate the release of dopamine.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: So- Things that stimulate the release of dopamine. The amino
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: acid L-tyrosine. Okay. It's found in hard cheeses like Parmesan cheese,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: believe it or not. Some people think they're a little
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: bit addicted to cheese in some ways.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, they do?
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Some people think that, yeah. L-tyrosine is a supplement as well.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Ooh, L-tyrosine. He sounds like he's from Rome, huh?
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: There's a very interesting hairy little bean- No joke. This
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: is a hairy little bean called Macuna Purines. He's going
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: to say something else. Macuna Purines.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: Macuna Purines?
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Macuna Purines. This is a velvety bean. If you just
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: put velvet bean L-Dopa, it is 99% L-Dopa, which is
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: the precursor. It gets converted to dopamine.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I'll take L8 ball of it.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: Remember that movie Awakenings where people were frozen?
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Yes. With Robert De Niro. That's right. And Robin Williams. Yes,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Robin Williams.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: And they gave those patients, it was a true story.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: It's based on a story by the neurologist writer, Oliver Sacks.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: And they gave those people L-DOPA. That velvety little bean
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: is L-DOPA. So you say, can you manufacture it? You
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: can take the thing that is the precursor. Now, if
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: you do that, you'll feel dopaminergic as neuroscientists say.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: You'll be like buzzed. You'll be energized. Like Shakira. Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: And then you'll feel the drop. And then methamphetamine stimulates
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: the release as we saw cocaine stimulates release behaviors. Listen,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: I don't want to demonize dopamine. Dopamine is, you know,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I'm sure I had a surge of dopamine walking in
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: here today. I'm a fan of your show.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: I had a surge of dopamine when I saw you.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: I was excited, nervous about it. and then it happened.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: And hopefully I will, the reward prediction error won't be
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: less than you anticipated. That's my goal.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: It's already fascinating.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: So I think that, you know, can you manufacture it? Well,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: there are things that can stimulate its release. Now what's beautiful,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: what's really beautiful is when I usually, I think usually
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: it happens when you're a teen. For me, it was
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: 19 when I discovered biology, you know, wasn't good at skateboarding,
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: wasn't bad, but you know, I liked running and working out,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: but I never thought about becoming a professional athlete. And
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: then I discovered learning and biology. And I thought, wow,
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: this is something that I'm highly motivated to do. I
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: didn't really understand dopamine then we didn't know that much
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: about it, but I'm motivated to do it. So there's
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: dopamine from doing it. It brings me resources at first
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: degrees and knowledge later, you know, the ability to buy
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: a house, right? So much of my life is built
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: around the work that I did like a maniac really
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: between the age of 19 and I'm 49 now just
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: working nonstop. And so there's functional dopamine and pretty soon
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: you start weaving it in like, oh, I can also
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: rest and have some recreation and that's giving me dopamine.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: And so our lives are built around this molecule we
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: call dopamine.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: And so the ways that you can manage it almost
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: orchestrate dopamine to use it to your advantage. It's very usable.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: I think the thing to remember the following dopamine is
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: not about the pursuit of pleasure. It's about the pleasure
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: of pursuit. It's about motivation. The other thing to remember
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: about dopamine is it can, if it's increased very dramatically
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: and very fast, it can drive addiction. And I define
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: addiction as a progressive narrowing of the things that bring
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: you pleasure. A great life is where many, many things
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: bring you pleasure. And then perhaps the most important thing
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: for people, especially if they're concerned about porn, gambling, internet use,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: or whatever, even if they're not a full-blown addict, they're
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: just kind of feeling like a slave to everything going on,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: you know, just everything, highly processed foods, all of that,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: is that any high amount of dopamine that comes to
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: you without effort before it will eventually destroy you. Or
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: bring you close to destruction. So something that just feels
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: so good that all you had to do was open
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: a package All you had to do was take a pill.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Or open a website.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Or open a website. That is the slippery slope. And
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: if we think more in terms of, you know.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Pandora's box doesn't really have a key on it, huh?
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I, listen, I'm not a huge UFC fan,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: but I've been to a few fights and it's fun.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: And I see you guys down there in the front
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: row and this kind of thing. Look, someday I imagine,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: given my friend set and given my interests, maybe I'll
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: just buy a ticket and it'd be a great thrill, right?
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: But if I were a kid and I suddenly were
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: just planted there every single night, guess what? You move
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: one row back, it's going to feel like bad seating.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: And this is why the children of very wealthy people,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: unless your father is like a Warren Buffett who insists
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: that you actually work and this kind of thing, that
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: children of very wealthy people often destroy their lives. They
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: destroy their lives because they haven't had to work to
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: have all this stuff. And there's this huge cushion below them.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: In fact, my graduate advisor.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: They're almost swimming in dope and they're almost in the
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: hot tub, but they never been in the pool.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: And then they're exactly. And then they're, and then they're
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: down below baseline. And then it takes more and more
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: and more.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: You know, that show. Is that genetic then? Sorry to
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: interrupt you, but is that genetic that your baseline level
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: for dopamine? Is that genetic?
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: No, this is all behaviorally driven.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not saying parents. So you said
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: it's all behaviorally driven. All behavior. So I'm just saying, yeah.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Say if like you had a, like, you know, your
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: father was an addict or somebody, and then it could the,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: to the next generation have that same, like need to
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: get back to that baseline and it could be inherited
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: type of thing. Well, there, okay.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: So there are certain addictions that appear to have some
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: genetic component, but it's confounded. As we say, it's mixed
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: up with the behavioral stuff around that. Like for instance,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: the probability of somebody becoming a severe alcoholic, they now
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: call it alcohol use disorder. And I'm not trying to
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: be irreverent, but I just call it alcoholism. Alcoholism, yeah,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: for sure. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm going to try and
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: stay out of the lanes.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: Of political correctness. Yeah, we've all got it in here. Yeah, great.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: So the probability that somebody will become an alcoholic greatly
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: increases if their first drink, just their first sip, comes
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: before age 13. Mm-hmm. Now, some parents think, hey, listen,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: if my kid has a beer when they're eight and 10,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: then they won't have this kind of mysterious feeling around alcohol.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: That's one theory, but we know on good statistics that
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: drinking before the age of 13 greatly increases the probability
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: of becoming an alcoholic. So now you can imagine in
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: which households will that happen? Well, where they're trying to
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: normalize high alcohol intake. So it can be both genetic
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: and circumstantial.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: But do some countries then suffer with the higher alcoholism
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: rates then? Yes, yes. Even European ones?
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Northern European countries, especially in the winter. I have northern
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: European relatives. I'll tell you in the winter, they can
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: drink up there and it's dark and alcohol.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Is a depressant.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: There's also about 8% of people have a gene variant
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: that when they drink, they don't feel the same sedative
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: type quality to alcohol. When you drink, the first thing
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: that happens for everybody is your prefrontal cortex. This is
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: like the part of your brain right behind your forehead.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: It's the part that sets context, like what's appropriate in
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: different places. It inhibits you. Everybody gets a little more talkative, right?
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: Everyone's talking, talking, talking, but then you drink more and
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: people are trying to pass out on the couch and
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: people are slurring their words. About 8% of people get
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: a dopamine surge and an energy increase from alcohol with
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: increasing alcohol intake. These are the people, remember when you're
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: in your 20s and there's that guy and he's still
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: awake at like three in the morning, he's in the kitchen.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: And he's bumping around, he's in the cupboard.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: And you see him the next morning and he's like, hey,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: and you're like, we were passed out, blacked out, drunk.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: He's doing laundry or whatever.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: He's just like, hey, let's go running.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's doing, yeah, making a lemonade or whatever.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: So that's a genetic predisposition.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Wow. And so, but is that a positive one? It
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: sounds like it is kind of. Well, it's probably adaptive
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: in some ways. you know, they've got, you got the
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: cursor on Russia. I mean, listen, I'm friends with Lex Friedman.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, that kid can drink compared to me. Oh, dude. Yeah.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: I don't drink.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I had my last sip in 2019.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Amen. Well, and Lex has the depression to show it, man.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: He's got that emo side of him that takes over him.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: You know, he's definitely, I think he just put something
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: out again on X. I mean, it's perfect. No, I
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: love Lex. Cause he, there's this transparency about him to
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: me that is remarkably human, you know, like this, like,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Ever hopeful, talented, but also very like honest. He's just
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: so lucky. He just said, I'm an introvert who hides
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: from the world often way too much. One thing I
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: wish I did more is call and text my friends.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: I think about them often and feel lucky to know them,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: but experience a strange anxiety that prevents me from texting
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: and calling. Silly introvert brain wants to pull me into
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: isolation and darkness. Then again, once I hang out with
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: said friends, it's like we've been talking every day. So
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: maybe there's no problem. And it's just how dude friendships are.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: BSC Thoughts brought to you by a brain on six
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: shots of espresso. That's perfect.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, with Lex, you know, I
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: won't claim that he posted that because of me, but
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I'd been texting for like three weeks now and it's
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: just crickets. And then I'll get something back that just
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: says here. Yeah. And you just learn with him over time.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: That's just that guy.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Well, that's Russian communication. I mean, it can take five
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: generations to get a hug out of somebody.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: I love the Russians.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, they're unbelievable. And a lot of them had carried
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: stone dolls as children. Like imagine if your doll, your
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: baby doll is made of stone. It's like your whole
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: concept of the world is going to be so different.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Stone dolls. Bring back that chart up again. I want
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: to see what they were doing over there. Alcoholism by country.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: United States, 13.9%. Canada, only 8%. UK, 8.7%. And what's
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: the darkest one over there? It's Russia. And what's it at?
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: 20.9%.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Hell, yeah. It's cold and bleak.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: You got to be fucking brain dead over there.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: North Korea is lowest, but we don't really know what's
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: going on in North Korea.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: No, we don't know. This is just a fun chart,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: but it's also exciting to just make.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: That's one place I never want to visit.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Be reminded that the Russians live like that. I want
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: to ask you about this, about... So one of the
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: big things that I think is a huge problem that's
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: about to happen in the world is pornography addiction, right?
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: I think it's– I believe it's humongous. I believe it's
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: bigger than alcoholism. I believe it's like the wave of
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: it that we're starting to see like people really suffering
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: from it. I think it's one of the reasons why
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of divorce. What do you see like
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: neuroscientifically about– how we can, how people can start to
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: manage that. And then even as what you just talked about,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: about dopamine, it's like, I think it's helping people realize
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: with that, that it's like such a hole that you're
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: getting into. No, uh, no, whatever that thing is called.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: No pun intended. Um, how does that, how can people
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: start to cut that off for themselves? Is there anything
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: they can do manage, like, or do they have to
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: get help if they believe that they're suffering from like
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: pornography or, uh, sexual addiction?
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, Super important questions. I'm so glad you're raising
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: this because it's interesting. If you look at the research
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: on pornography and sexual behavior generally, what you'll find mostly
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: in the academic studies of those areas is kind of
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: an attempt to normalize a lot of behavior. There are
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: reasons for that, some pseudo-political, some just kind of the
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: way those studies were done for a long time. But
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: it's really important to emphasize that it takes a while
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: for science to catch up to culture.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Okay. It takes a while for science to catch up
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: to culture.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: And the reason is not because scientists are lazy or
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: they're uninterested is that doing science well takes a long time. Look,
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: I've run studies in my lab on animals, on humans,
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: clinical trials. It takes a long time, like three, four
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: years sometimes to get a really good study done. Meanwhile,
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: life is happening. And in the last five years, especially
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: there's been an exponential growth of the amount of pornography
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: available online, the different formats, right? Only fans, all the
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: different sites that people can go to, free, paid, AI.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: And within each of those, there's also been a huge
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: amplification of what's called high-intensity porn. What's high-intensity porn? It's
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: more than two people. It's BDSM. Now, BDSM is its
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: own discussion that maybe we could talk about at some point,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: just separately about this merge of pain and pleasure that
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: The reason, I'll just, the punchline is that dopamine is
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: also increased by what we call the cessation of pain.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: When pain starts and then stops, you get an amplified
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: dopamine surge. So a lot of people are watching or
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: engaging in what we would call violent porn, right? And we're,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: as primate species, humans, we have an empathy. So when
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: people are watching pornography, they're obviously not experiencing the same
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: things exactly those people are doing and experiencing. but they're
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: tuning into it, right? They're getting to it. And we
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: can only speculate as to what they're doing to themselves, right?
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: Typically when we're talking about porn, let's just be direct.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: We're also talking about masturbation, right? Typically when we're talking
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: about watching video porn, sometimes it's women, most often it's
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: men by a huge majority.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the men are the one watching it.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Although, you know, years ago I had a girlfriend,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: a woman I was dating very seriously. And she confessed
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: to me that prior to our relationship, she had developed
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: a porn compulsion. It wasn't an addiction. You know, an addiction, again,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: It hadn't taken her to the point where it was destructive,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: but she had the wisdom to cut herself off from
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: it early on.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: So it does happen with women, but it's much more
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: frequent with men. So here's the thing. We can think
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: of pornography now as like the methamphetamine. of pornography compared
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: to the pornography of, you know, we always hear about, oh,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: you know, like when I was growing up, the playboy or,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: you know, the thing when I was a kid, like
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: I'll confess, didn't know I was going to do a confession,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: but they had those like sex education books where they
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: were like sketch drawings and pencil. And I, you know,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: when I was, you know, probably 14, 13, I was like,
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: this is awesome. You know, this was awesome. But it
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: was about, you know, Teaching you basically about sex. It
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: was teaching you about body parts. And that was, you know.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: For sure, man.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Pencil drawings. I can't believe we're looking this up.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: No, it's interesting because I think a lot of people probably.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: If you do pencil drawings, who knows what kind of
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: freaky stuff is going to jump up here.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: No, we have a blocker on. I'm pretty sure. Yeah.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: There we go. There we go.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: So yeah. See human loving. This is very different than
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: today's porn.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Sex and hue. I love how they used to call
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: it human loving. Human loving. That's nice though. There's something,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: at least it makes more sense. It puts even your
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: head into something, you know, instead of like a Britney's
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: butt world or whatever, you know, which takes it to
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: a whole different deal.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: And there was no discussion whatsoever of elements of pain
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: or BDSM or power play.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you know, For a heterosexual young male,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: the fact that they put her naked facing us as
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: opposed to the guy on the other side, you're like, okay, cool.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: But you know, the other thing about pornography is that
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: in a young brain, this is very important. It relates
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: to everything we're talking about today. from about age zero
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: to 25, your brain is incredibly plastic. It's modified by
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: experience just by being in those experiences.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: When you say plastic, you mean it's more like it's
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: not solid yet? That's right.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: You can literally wire neurons, plasticity, wire neurons to other
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: neurons very readily. I mean, this was known for a
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: long time, but it was really formalized by my scientific
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: great grandparents, David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel. They won a
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Nobel prize for showing that if you take a cat,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: a monkey, or a kid, and you close one eyelid
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: for just a few hours each day, the brain becomes
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: blind to visual input through that eye once you open
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: the eye up, unless you do something else like close
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: the other eye in order to reverse that plasticity. However,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: if today I just, yeah, that's how fast and permanent
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: it is unless you do something to reverse it. But
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: if I did that same thing to you now or
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: me now, there'd be no brain change. You close your eye,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: obviously you can't see through a closed eye. Pop open
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: the eyelid later, you see just fine. So we know
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: that from a, until about age 25, the brain just
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: modifies itself based on experience. So if you're doing cocaine, amphetamine,
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: or let's just stay with this example, you're watching high intensity,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: violent porn with more than two people, right? You know,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: we forget that every time you add another person, you know,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: it's two women and one guy, or it's, you know,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: what's this woman on X? I mean, I have to
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: say it makes, it gives me an aversive response, which
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: I think is the healthy response. Every time she announces,
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: I think she's like sleeping with a hundred and then
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: a thousand people. And listen, she's obviously in.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Control of her own life. Yeah, she's sleeping with the
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Western Conference right now. I think I just saw the
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: other day. I don't know what it, Barbara, is it
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Barbara Blue?
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: Bonnie Blue.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: Bonnie Blue. Bonnie.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: Bonnie Blue. This is like methamphetamine with heroin. And you
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: get the picture. It's starting to layer in all these
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: different things. And so the young, you think about the
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: young male brain in particular, young female brain watching this stuff.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: And it's not just setting a behavioral expectation because we
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: always hear about that. You know, they think sex is
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: like that and it's not. It's setting this incredibly high
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: threshold for what they consider stimulating. Not just stimulating sexually,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: but stimulating mentally. I mean, it's crazy. It's like, you know, listen,
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: I like playing cards every once in a while. So
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: you go play a card game with your friends. It'd
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: be like the first time you play cards, you got
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: a million bucks, you know, you're, or you're back there
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: in the high state, you're in like the Dana White room, right?
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Like I know, like when I see sometimes his gambling hands, right? He's,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: you know, but he can afford to play. And he
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: also knows, where that fits into the rest of his life.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: But you think about a kid, you have a chance
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: to win a million dollars. Actually, there's this scene in
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: that movie, that show, remember Succession?
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: A show that it's all about dopamine. This family of
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: rich brats who are completely corrupt. Everything's about more, more, more.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: Dopamine has been called in a book, I forget the author,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: the molecule of more. It's all about wanting more. And
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: there's this dreadfully sad scene where They go out to play,
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: I think it was like a baseball game or something,
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: and they bring their garden help. And they take the
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: kid and they say, hey, if you can hit a
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: home run, these people's kids, people are clearly, and they say,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: if you hit a home run, you have a million dollars.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: And you see the anticipation. This would transform these kids
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: and their parents' life. And then he doesn't get the
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: million dollars. And they give him like some watch that's
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: probably worth $ 25, 000. This is dopamine reward prediction error in
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: a nutshell. Had they given him the watch, The family
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: probably would have been pretty thrilled. They could sell it,
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: they could use it. Had they not been involved in
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: the game, their dopamine is the same as when they
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: go home at night, but they had a chance at
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: a million dollars. And when they didn't get that, it
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: drops them below baseline. And then you see the kid
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: that evening, like sitting around his apartment, just completely despondent
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: with the watch sitting there as if it was worth nothing.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: That's dopamine.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: And when you think about pornography, that's what young people
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: are being exposed to. So Their first sexual experiences not
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: only are quite different. Remember, pornography is about, obviously, people
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: are getting aroused by watching other people have sex. I
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: don't know what kind of sex people are having out there,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: but in my experience, the whole business of sex and
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: learning how to have great sex is about learning to
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: be in the experience with somebody. And it's a communication.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: It's an ongoing communication. And it's about Being in the experience,
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: being present, not watching someone else have sex.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I was thinking the other day, watching some
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: other dude like have sex with a woman, it's kind of,
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: I don't even know if it's homoerotic. I don't know
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: what it is. It's definitely when you really, when you
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: take a step back from it, it's a little bizarre.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: It's definitely intrusive, right? But for Shirley, it alters the
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: way that you think about things. I mean, I know
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: in my own life, I got exposed to pornography real early.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: I would bike across town to get a little look
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: at some pornos.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Perfectly normal behavior for a young male.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: Pretty normal. I was breaking into houses to freaking, you know.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: I had friends like you growing up. Where did you
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: grow up? Louisiana.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: I had friends growing up. I mean, in the, in South,
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: South Bay, Palo Alto was pretty tame. But when we,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: when I started getting into the skateboard thing, Oh, you know,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: we drew from kids from all over and, and listen,
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I'm very grateful for that early exposure.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. It's easy to jerk off to, if you've
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: got some good graffiti.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I meant early exposure to kids that from
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: all walks of life, but I knew kids like you
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: breaking into house.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Oh dude.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: I remember.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: It would be crazy. You would like, you know, yeah.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Just like breaking in just like, yeah, we made some
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: poor choices, but I think the fact that, um, here's
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: one thing I noticed for myself, right? So, well, I
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: had like a lot of, like I had kind of
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: a disorder, I guess, where like I had some intimacy
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: issues where I couldn't, I'd had like some issues, like
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: just like probably with my mom from growing up of
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: not having a connection. And so if a woman, if
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: I got around a woman, I got very nervous, right?
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: It was like a very, extremely nervous, right? So, I
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: think it made it like once I saw pornography, I
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: was like, OK, well, here's a way that I can
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: be near a woman or near as a female where
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: I can have some form of intimacy without having to
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: have a real person there. So that for one for
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: me was um it was okay it made sense that
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: it that that's how i adapted to it as a
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: kid or how i understood it as a kid it
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: makes sense uh but as an adult it didn't help
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: me at a certain point um and then the secondary
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: part for me was uh you know you would just
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: see you would see sex like in images or scenes
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: or a way a camera's set up and so then
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: that's how you start to think of it of intimacy
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: it's like you know, it's like, okay, well we have
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: to do this scene. You know, it's not like you
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: would stage things around your room or anything. You didn't
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: have any cameras or anything, but you would just like,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: you thought of each thing as like a scene or
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: a scenario.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, you're not out there shooting baskets. You're
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: trying to like recreate the NBA final, you know?
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: And that's a lot, that's a lot of pressure. So
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: it was a ton of pressure. So it was like,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: and you almost couldn't even, yeah, there was no real connection.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: So that for me was a real cul-de-sac of like,
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to evolve, like, um, intimately,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: you know, and, and, and it's, it's, some of that's
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: taken a long time to get through and different, like, uh, class,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: like not classes, but like ayahuasca really helped me a lot.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Different medicines helped a lot with like, just unbinding all
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: that anxiety. That was just like this young person who just, uh,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: didn't know how to relate to females, you know? You know,
• 1:00:26
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  Speaker 1: almost June. And I'm still recovering from the Christmas holidays.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: That's just who I am. I'm still recovering from the previous.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: I just, I never, I never put it all together
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: after that, to be very honest with you. And you know,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: overall life in general can be chaotic, but if you're
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: in charge of order fulfillment for an e-commerce business, you
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: know that that is its own special kind of chaos.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Unless you're rocking With ShipStation, ShipStation helps you be able
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: to count on your day-to-day remaining calm. Our experience with
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• 1:03:51
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• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: I think it's a really important conversation. If I may,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, listen, like I said, I'm 49 now,
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: but you know, I am forever grateful to my first girlfriend.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: I was a virgin when she and I started sleeping together.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: She had slept with this other guy. All I knew
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: about him was he was like some buff football player.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: I'm like the skinny skateboard kid.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: Oh dude, my first girlfriend slept with a dude before
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: me who wore a cape, dude. A fucking... You wore
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: a cape? Yeah. Like, fuck, dude. What the heck?
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, I mean, I remember going into that, like
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: any young male, thinking like, my goodness, you know, this
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: is like, there's a lot of pressure. And one of
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: the things I'm so grateful to her for is, you know,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: we were able to talk a bit. At first, no,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: you know, it was just like, you just want it
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: to go perfect, right? You just want it to go perfect.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: And I will say one of the huge mistakes people make,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: maybe we can save some people, some men and women,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: young men and women, some serious stress. One of the
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: huge mistakes people make is to try and take that edge.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: Off with alcohol.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: First of all, it starts to really muddy all the
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: consent stuff. So you're already like, you're already playing with fire, right?
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: Because- You know, when people are inebriated, they're not in
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: their right mind. So the other thing is that by
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: chemically removing that stress, many people come to depend on
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: those chemicals to relax and they don't learn the skills, right?
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: As I always joke, you know, it's not a joke,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: it's serious. You know, nowadays, like every young male who
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: wants to like get a little bit, you know, jacked
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: is like, should I take TRT? And I'm like, dude,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: you're 25. you're already filled with testosterone. They're like, yeah,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: but you know, and you're like, learn how to train,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: learn how to eat. And when you're in your late forties,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: talk to a doctor, freeze some sperm because it's going
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: to shut down your sperm production. Maybe then, but like
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: just chill. And in the same way, it's like, I
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: think there's immense pressure. There's also something that's happening now
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: that I hear about a lot, which is from the
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: beginning of time, women have talked to one another.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: Okay. I had the- Oh yeah, chatty Cathy, you heard
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: of that term?
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: No. Is that what it's called?
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a famous term. Who brought it up? Let's
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: get to the bottom of that term really quick because
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: people have heard it a lot, and you don't know
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: where it really started. Do we know that? The phrase
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: Chatty Cathy originally came from the name of popular talking
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: doll manufactured by Mattel in the 1960s. The doll's pull
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: string mechanism played prerecorded phrases when the string was activated, like,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: you don't make any money, or... You get your own dinner.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: I made those up. But damn, Kathy's a vibe. Look
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: at her.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: She had a buck tooth, a little buck tooth there.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: Back when you get a good British gal. But go on.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Was there anything left on that information? Over time, the
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: term chatty Kathy became a common idiom to describe someone
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: who is especially talkative. And I'm just joking, ladies. But
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: that's interesting where that came from. I never knew. Always
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: heard that.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: I never heard that term. You know, so I had
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: the great benefit. And the disadvantage as well of having
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: a sister, right?
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: Having a sister is great because you don't think women
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: are weird. Like I grew up with a girl living
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: next door to me and my sister, we shared a bathroom,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: all that. But I also heard the way her and
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: her friends talk about boys. And so from a young age,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: I was like, man, I can't make a mistake on
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: a first date. I got to do everything perfect because
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: it's going to be the rundown. But back then there
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: was no social media. Now young guys tell me, they
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: are terrified to go out on dates because let's say
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: they do something wrong. Let's say they're less than perfect.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: They are very concerned. It's going to end up on
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: some site and they're going to be shamed. And I'll
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: tell you, I do think, and of course I take
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: the male perspective because that's the only body I've ever
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: lived in. But I do think that a lot of
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: the complaints about, you know, young, you know, there are
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: no men today, young, young males, like in the twenties
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: and thirties, you know, a lot of these guys are
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: terrified because they feel like everything's potentially going to become public,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: positive or negative. And I hear a lot from young
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: males about the pornography question, about all this. And I like,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: there's one kid that I've kind of mentored over time.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: I've known him since he was a little kid and
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: now he's in his twenties and he's doing great in life,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: but he's had his challenges. And he, I'll tell you,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: it's really interesting. He said to me, he goes, look,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: you know, it's hard, good looking kid. He's, Right now
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: he's working construction, he's doing great. And he said, look,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: it's hard to find someone who just kind of keeps
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: your relationship just the two of you. But he did,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: he had a girlfriend, she wasn't the one. So he
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: found one and they have a closed container, they call it.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: It was like the new language. or something. And he's like, man,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: it's awesome.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: And he's like, you know, if I'm nervous about something
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: related to intimacy, we talk about it. Turns out she's
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: nervous too. And he feels super safe. But he had
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: to literally ante that up because where he went to school,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: I won't say where he went to school because he'll
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: murder me. But- You know, it's like the opposite Arizona State, right?
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: There's all this stuff about people talking behind the scenes
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: and then posting it to the internet.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: And that's enough.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: And so that drives guys more into the loneliness and
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: isolation of porn and substance abuse. And so I'm not
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: blaming women here. I'm not blaming men here. I'm just
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: saying that when it comes to intimacy, everybody's nervous about that, right?
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: When I was a kid, there was like Dr. Ruth
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: and there were those books. And then you had this
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: thing called experience and you'd have to, well, that went well,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: that went less well, that went really well. And then
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: over time you learn how to have the communication and
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: enjoy yourself in it.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: But it's hard.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: It's difficult.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: Now you can have a thing where it's like, say
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: you go out on a date with a girl and
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: then they could make a video like, oh, this guy
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: tried to kiss me. What a lose. Just like, but
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: I guess guys could do that too. But just, just
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: the risk of that on either side, it's like, then
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: that wins, you know, it's like, how many times are
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: we going to let technology defeat what just means being human. Right.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: And like, and at what point do we start to
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: choose like, Hey, I'm going to make a moral, like
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: a choice for myself and whoever I'm going to date with,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: maybe have a talk with them first or something like,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: you know, but it's like every time it's like technology
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: is the one that seems to like take away like
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: things that used to be so real to us. Yeah.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: Because then you're both in a cave, you're both just
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: masturbating or whatever. And you're both like broken hearted in a,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: in some semblance, it seems like, is that crazy to
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: say that?
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so at all. I mean, listen,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: text messages. I hate telling people this, but like everything
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: you text is potentially public. I don't care if you're
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: a public facing AKA famous person or not. And that
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: terrifies people. At the same time, you know, there can
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: be great intimacy through writing. You know, my first girlfriend
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: and I wrote each other letters for years, for years.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: I still have letters from girlfriends. You know, I cherish those.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: I don't break them out too often. If you have
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: a new girlfriend, you basically, you got to hide those
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: away pretty carefully. But I assume Anyone I date's got those,
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: you know, from their former relationships. And I'm not bothered
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: by that.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of their experience. No, it's nice.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: You go get them out. But I agree, man. I
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: get nervous because sometimes like for a date or something
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: I would like to do, well, let's do a Zoom
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: call or something first because it's like, you know, especially
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: if we live a little bit away from each other,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: let's see if we even talk well or something. But
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: then you're worried like, well, is somebody recording this or
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: what's going on? Yes, they're recording it. No, I'm just kidding.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, listen, well, the old stereotype was, Girls feared
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: getting slut shamed. Right. Guys feared getting dork shamed, like
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: loser shamed.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: It's been said by the evolutionary biologists.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: Donnie's a loser, dude.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: And they speculate a lot, but the evolutionary biologists will say,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: you know, a woman's greatest fear is violence from a man.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: Man's greatest fear is.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: Being laughed at.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, God. Right.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: And so there's this battle nowadays. I'm glad we're talking
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: about this because there's this kind of unspoken battle between
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: the masculine and feminine forces.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: Well, it's just funny you say that because I just
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: realized that the majority of my childhood was some woman.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: I don't even know who it was laughing in the
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: distance in my head. Oh, man. Like especially when I
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: got into puberty and that kind of time.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: Well, and there's nothing that feels better than feeling like
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: you can– deeply satisfy your partner and they're devoted to
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: you and you're devoted to them. It's a wonderful, I mean,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: that's the stuff that, you know, love and marriages and
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: families and to be direct, great sex are made of, right?
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: But this is one of the most important conversations to
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: our audience, because I think this is the thing that's,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: it's killed, you know, relationships are falling up. It's like,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: if we don't, if this doesn't get fixed now, it's
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: going to be, I think it's, you know, societies can
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: change and end really fast, especially with like technology now. Um,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: to me, it's, it's just like, we're at a crucial
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: moment for relationships.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: I totally agree. I mean, you know, young guys approach
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: me a lot about the porn thing about concern about like,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: are they going to be shamed on one of these
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: sites if they, you know, do something wrong or, or,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: and I'm not talking about like wrong, like they were forceful.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about wrong. Like they, they made a mistake
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: or they said something dumb or, you.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: Know, I think a lot of one, Nick, didn't you
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: have a site you're pulling up? This is one right here.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: Are we dating the same guy? Women turn to Facebook
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: to uncover cheating and violence. Experts say use of groups
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: to warn others about dangerous men is indictment on government's
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: failure to keep women safe.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: This is from the guardian. So it's obviously very pro
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: the groups, but there's negative consequences like people being reported
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: just for dating multiple women that they're not exclusive with
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: and stuff like that.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: But it's also, it's very pro who you said.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: Guardian is very pro the app as like an empowerment
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: for women, the way they can stay safe.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I think apps that protect people against violence are great.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: I think that, um, you know, if you look at
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: the data on infidelity in and out of marriage, it's
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: equally distributed between men and women.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: So there's no, there's no men cheat more than women. It's, it's,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: it's clearly equally distributed. So the data play that over
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: and over again, you look at divorce data, but you
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: just look at self-report data, all different forms of data
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: collection that really orient towards honesty because people lie all
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: the time and studies and statistics point to that. I
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: think that, you know, the, The most important thing, really,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: if we're talking about forming intimacy, whether or not sexual intimacy,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: emotional intimacy, or both, is that people feel that their
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: communications are.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: Vaulted between them, right? What does vaulted mean?
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: Vaulted means it's just between them. What's exchanged between them
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: stays between them.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: That's intimacy in its own right, is that it's something here,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: it's between us, right? That's right.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, I have a half-joking... a solution to this,
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: but I'm only half joking.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: And, and I should say, I've had some great relationships
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: and I've had some not great relationships. Right. Um, I'm
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: on great terms with most, all of my ex girlfriends,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: you know, and I'm so grateful to, especially one from about,
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: it was a long relationship, about seven years where she
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: really taught me how to like have the uncomfortable conversation.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: And, and I'm still learning.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: And we're still good friends. But I'll tell you one
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: of the solutions to this. Men, find a good lesbian friend.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: You want to really understand where you're strong, where you're weak,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: and you want to learn to just kind of relax
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: around women. Be around a woman that you have no chance.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: Of sleeping with. That buddy oyster, bro.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: You know, I have a couple of lesbian friends and
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you, I've always had a couple of lesbian friends.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: I'm convinced lesbians are going to save us all.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: God, I got to get one. They are, you know,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying?
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you got to get it out of your
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: head that you're going to sleep with them.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: Because these are what we call platinum star lesbians. They
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: are interested in women and women only.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm talking, checking a Westbrook jersey.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: So, and they, it's interesting because they have an amazing
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: perspective on men that's from a women's perspective. And they
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: also have an amazing perspective on women. They can say
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: things like she's crazy. Andrew, you date her, you're going
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: to be in pain. And they can also say things like,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: she seems pretty cool. I would date her except she's
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: not into women.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: And you, that's good.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: Women can see things in women that men can't see.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: Men can see things in men that obviously women can't see.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, I grew up in a big pack of guys.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: Like I only hit bullseyes when it comes to assessment
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: of friends and business partners, men and women. But you know,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: with men, I can just tell he's a sociopath. He's cool.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: He's not cool.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: I can just tell it's like a sixth sense. The
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: other thing, you know, across the sexes, you know, a
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: macaque monkey blindfolded on LSD has better optics. And I
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: don't think I'm alone in that, right? Because we get stirred.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: It's not all about the anticipation of sex. It's that
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: the styles of communication are different. The way that stories
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: and information is turned into things by one sex. And
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: it's like a whole different world. Lesbians normalize all of
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: this and they're extremely direct. And some of my best
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: friends are lesbians. I love them to death.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: I would- We got to get some damn lesbians over here.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: Lesbians are going to save us.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: All, man. Yeah. I love that. That would be a
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: great musical. Lesbians are going to save us all. And
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: I believe that I would love to see that. And
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, I think there is this, you know,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: for a while there, people were like gays and gays and,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: you know, don't be gay and that kind of stuff.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: Probably like 50 years ago, that was like a thing,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: you know? And then- but now I think one of the,
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: one of the neat things about gay folks is there
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: are that they have like a special recipe, you know,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: that's built into them.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: Like I have a good friend I've known since childhood.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: It was, it was wild.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: Cause he basically slept with like more women than any
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: of us in high school.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: He's a gay gentleman.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: He ended up being gay.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: Went off to college. He's as, he's as gay as
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: could be. Yeah. And, um, you know, and the communication
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: he's explained like the communication in the gay community, gay
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: male community.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: Well, it's just very direct. Right.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: People ask for sex if they want it. They say no,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: if they don't want to. Yeah. I mean, that's it.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: It's a, it is straight up.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, the stereotype is it matches. There are some
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: married gay couples, obviously monogamous, et cetera, but it aligns
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: with all the, the male stereotypes of promiscuous multiple partners. That's,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: that's the kind of stereotype, right? Um, You know, the
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: grill and cum.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: That'd be my team, dude. If you had a gay
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: flag football team in college, dude, at the rec center,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: grill and.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: Come you want to hear some some wild data on
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: homosexuality yeah hormones okay so years ago when I was
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: a graduate student at Berkeley I was part of a
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: study I wasn't the main author that looked at finger
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: length ratios and homosexuality in men and women and how
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: much testosterone was in utero now I don't want anyone
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: to freak out and just start staring at their fingers
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: but because it has to be measured correctly all right
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: all right so So if you hold up your right hand,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: like I'm holding up my right hand, my ring finger
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: here is a little bit longer than my pointer finger.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: Let me see. Which one's ring finger? Yeah.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: So, but turn it the other way around for me.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: So your ring finger is a little bit longer than
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: your pointer finger.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: That is the typical heterosexual male pattern.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: Now people are going to be like, this is bullshit. Listen,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: this has been replicated more than five times in humans.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: So on the right hand, And you don't know, sometimes
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: they look a little more equal.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: What is replicated five generations?
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: Five different studies have repeated this and it holds up
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: every single time. So, and if sometimes you have to
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: measure from that first crease on the palm side, but
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: if we were to measure it, yeah. So, so this,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: this pointer finger is smaller than the ring finger.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: It's called the D2 to D4 ratio. Scientists are super nerdy.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: Turns out that if you look at gay men, men
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: that identify as gay, they're, there are very few men
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: that identify as bisexual actually, but if you look at
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: gay men, that difference is much more pronounced, much bigger.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: They have a hyper male pattern. Now it can't be
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: due to behavior, right? You could say, well, they're having
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: sex with a lot more people. Sex increases testosterone. No,
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: it's directly related to how much testosterone you were exposed
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: to in utero when you were in your mommy's belly.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: Now- Can you get exposed to testosterone in your mom's
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: belly if someone ejaculates into the mom?
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: Uh, that hasn't been looked at, but, um, I don't
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: think so. There's a lot to talk about. So yeah,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: you can put that hand down. So, so gay, gay
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: men have a hyper male pattern that the index finger,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: excuse me, the pointer finger tends to be, uh, relatively
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: shorter than the ring finger.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: So the pointer finger is shorter than the ring finger. Yeah.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: On the right hand. Good. The right hand is where
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: it's there.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: You go see.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: So, yep.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. Ooh, fuck.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, so- It's close. Well, no, no, it's a very
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: small difference in everyone. Okay. But in gay men, it
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: tends to move much greater.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: So in the gay men, the pointer finger is a
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: little bit more shorter than the ring finger. Correct.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: Wow. And we're not talking about absolute, we're talking about
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: the ratio. Okay, now check this out. Now check it out.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: Lesbians tend to have the same pattern as heterosexual men,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: which is not to say they are men, right? Believe me,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: I got lesbian friends. They are women. A lot of people,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: when they hear lesbian, they think of like a sort
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: of cartoon stereotype of lesbian. There are a lot, trust me,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of different lesbians. Actually, my lesbian
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: friends recently have been trying to school me on how
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: you spot a lesbian. Turns out there's all sorts of
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: interesting things that the lesbian community, not supposed to give
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: away these secrets. It's kind of like magicians, you know,
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: but let's just say like number of rings and stuff
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: is are like interesting correlates, okay.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: Um, love the lesbian community. Yeah. We got to find
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: some good lesbians, man, in the future. So here's what's wild. Yeah.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: The more older brothers a guy has, the more testosterone
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: he's exposed to in utero and the higher probability it
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: is that he'll be gay.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: Now that's not always the case. It doesn't mean you
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: have five older brothers, you'll be gay, but much higher probability.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: Of being gay.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: If you have more older brothers with each older brother,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: the probability of a male growing up into a gay
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: man increases significantly. Okay, super interesting. Now, all of this
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: is interesting because it shows that there's what we call
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: organizational effects of hormones in utero. None of this can
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: be because of behavior. In fact, these differences are present
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: at birth. And then of course, the question I asked
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: when I was on the study is if I would
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: chop off my index finger, does my testosterone go up?
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: The answer is no.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: So when we think about like partner selection, like heterosexual, homosexual,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: You know, I think years ago, it was thought that
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: this was, you know, there were still people that thought
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: this was a behavioral choice. Listen, newsflash, this is clearly
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: a biological phenomenon. None of this, clearly, like, you know,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: and I understand that, but there's, of course, also flexibility.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: You could imagine that some people, because of experience, decide
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: that they're going to, you know, bat for the other team.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, for sure. A lot of my gay friends are like,
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: it's not a choice, right? It's just like, it's who
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: you are. And I'm like, well, why after you've had
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: a drink are you trying to get me to choose it?
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: That's a thing for me. That's a very good point.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: It's like reverse psychology. They're trying to trick you or something.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: Wiener trick. That's interesting.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: My lesbian friends have never tried to convince me to
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: be a lesbian.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: But I don't blame gay dudes. Because I think the
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: ultimate thing you can get as a gay dude is
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: a straight dude. That's the hot shit. Well, okay.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: So I can't speak for lesbians, but my close lesbian
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: friends tell me that also, yeah, like flipping somebody for.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: Them is like considered a trophy. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: But, you know, so the last sort.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: Of study in this- Catching a big foot or whatever.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: There's a neuroscientist by the name of Simon LeVay who
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: years ago looked in the brain for brain differences between
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: gay and straight men. And he found one. There's a
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: little area of the hypothalamus called the interstitial nucleus of
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: the anterior hypothalamus area four that is different in size
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: between gay men and straight men. And it's hard to
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: argue that that comes from behavior. It could have. The
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: problem with that study is they got the brains from
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: deceased AIDS patients, and AIDS is a known neurodegenerative condition.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: So there's no perfect study of any of this. I
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: don't know how we got into this, but I think
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: basically we're talking about lesbians are going to save us all.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: But one thing that I think is so important about
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: the work you do, and seriously, one of the reasons
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: I wanted to come here today is because you're normalizing
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: conversations about addiction, porn, sex, intimacy. I think you answered
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: your question earlier. Why is podcasting so big and important now?
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: Because you're not going to get this kind of conversation
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: on a legacy news channel. They're going to bring in
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: somebody who is like the expert. And they're going to
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: talk about things from the perspective of never having done them.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: They're not going to reveal anything about themselves. And here
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: we are kind of brushing up against the barbed wire
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: of some of these topics in an effort to really
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: talk about them because this is what a lot of people.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: Are struggling with. Yeah, some of that intimacy disorder stuff
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: was a nightmare for me because when I was in
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: my 20s, I was so nervous around women that a
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: lot of times I had erectile dysfunction.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: Could you talk to your partner about it? Uh, back
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: then it was probably taboo, right?
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. No, I think I just felt defeated. You know,
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: it felt very much like, damn, something's wrong with me.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know what's wrong with me, you know? And
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: it was like, um, I remember I had, uh, it's
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: funny because kind of with like my first girlfriend, I
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: didn't really have it. And then it started to happen.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: And then the same thing happened with my second girlfriend.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: And then after that, once I kind of got into
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: like age 23, or like 24, it was like a
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: problem for a long time. It was like a bug
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: in your brain. Oh, yeah. So once it was like
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: I knew it was there, then it was like always
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: this thing. So, oh, fuck. I can't even– I forgot
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: about all these nightmare times where you'd be on a
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: date and you'd be like, how's this date going? And
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: then like are we going to get like intimate and
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen? And I would like– You know,
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: I remember, like, I would eat, like, you know, those
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: gas station wiener pills, like, you know, like Black Attack
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: 40 or whatever. Do those work? I've seen them on
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: the camera. No, they don't work, dude.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: I think they're all just caffeine and stimulants, which can't
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: be good.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: Can't be good. One of them I took, yeah. Just
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: zoom in on some of those. No, that's Dayquil. I mean,
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: that's not going to help anybody. Yeah, Triple Green, Rhino 87.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: macho man, white, black guy. That's a crazy name for one. Wait, what? Yeah.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: I made that up. Okay.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't see that there. I thought I have a
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: visual defect or something.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Body beast or whatever. King Kong.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: But nowadays a lot of this has worked out because
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: you know, the, the drug to Dalafil also known as
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: Cialis was developed as a way to increase blood flow
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: to the prostate. By the way, every male 35 or older,
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: this was suggested by the director of male sexual health
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: at Stanford School of Medicine, Mike Eisenberg. So I'm not
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: just pulling this out of nowhere. Every male 35 or
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: older should probably be on a low dose, 2.5 to
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: 5 milligrams of Tadalafil in the evening. It's very inexpensive.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: It does require a prescription.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: Because the prostate needs blood flow. And it also serves,
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: you know, it has this pro erectile function, right? And
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: of course one has to do all the other things correctly.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: You gotta be sleeping, exercising, et cetera. Also, a lot
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: of guys think they should be doing Kegels, you know,
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: that thing where you're like, that actually will tighten your
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: pelvic floor and block blood flow to the penis and
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: make erection more difficult. Yeah, so they didn't, you know,
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff wasn't taught.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember I would take some of them so
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: much sometime. I remember one time I was trying to like,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: perform like have sex with this gal or something and
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: my i'd taken so many of those winter pills my
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: nose just started bleeding oh no all over this woman
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: and i was like no what is happening did she
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: freak out huh i don't know it was in miami
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: everybody we had like a belly full of crab or
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: whatever but it was like this nice crab place but
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: it was like and my nose just it was just
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: like that was crazy but it it just became this
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: crazy dance in my head where it was like wiener pills,
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: trying to be normal, like trying to calm down, like
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: put an ice in my shirt, just all these things
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: to like chill, like just be able to be normal.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: for sex. That shit was a nightmare. Yeah. It was
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: a nightmare. And then you're stuck in this universe where
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: that becomes like your whole battle, and then you get
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: afraid to even talk to girls sometimes or relate to
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: them because you're like, well, you know, if I take
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: a girl down this road and it's not able to
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: work out, Then who am I? Then where am I at?
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: You know? Yeah.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: And then imagine that, but layered on top of that
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: is the fear of being shamed by, listen, I don't
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: know that I should, you know, I'm just going to
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: bring it up. I don't know the specifics, but I
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: remember hearing a few years ago, there was a comedian
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: who was like shamed for being bad in bed or something.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: Was this like, and that was one of the first
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: kind of, it was, he was kind of canceled for
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: being bad in bed.
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: Wasn't that?
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: That was, all right. Well, and listen, if there was
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: like coercive stuff or whatever, I don't know, but I
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: wasn't there. Obviously, obviously you didn't read the article either,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: but I think, you know, you layer on top the
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: fear of being shamed.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, you know, like you're talking
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: about like collapsing a young male's existence. I mean, You know,
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I, like I said, for the fourth time,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: forgive me for repeating myself, 49. So I- You look young, man.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: Thanks, man.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: I feel good. Well, listen, I quit drinking. I never
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: drank that much, but also I've been doing things that
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: I love. I was going to say that one of
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: the things that will keep you young is dopamine.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: Not from pharmacology, but being in pursuit of things that
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: you love. Positive anticipation.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: But I think that- Let's go into that in just
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: a second, but let's finish out this, what you were saying.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, you know, I benefited tremendously from
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: being open with that first girlfriend.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: That first girlfriend just saying, Hey, like, you know, like
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: she had this like buff boyfriend in another school, but
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: actually it was wild because he ended up killing himself.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: And that was years later. And I remember thinking this
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: guy was like the football hero.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: He ended up becoming, and I remember thinking, wow, I
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: thought in my mind, he was like, couldn't be outdone. Right.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: And so talking to her, I remember her just saying like,
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: first she said something like, we were kids, right? We
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: were like 16, you know? And she said, you know,
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: you're wonderful. And I remember thinking like, I don't want
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: to be called wonderful. Like I'm trying to get good
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: at this thing, right? And I think if I've learned anything,
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: like if I could send like all points bulletin out,
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: it's like everything we know about the erectile response is
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: that It's what we call parasympathetic. It comes from the
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: relaxation response. Orgasm is related to, it's almost like a
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: stress of sorts. It's pleasureful, but high arousal. The key
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: to all of it is a lot of exhales, a
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: lot of nasal breathing, and just slow the whole thing down.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: Slow the whole thing down. Later, once you're comfortable with somebody,
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: if you got like five minutes and you're gonna like
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: go for the quickie thing in the kitchen before you
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: leave to work, okay, that's a whole program.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: That's like that, uh, that guy lethal shooter on Instagram,
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: the guy can make a basket from anywhere. Like he
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: worked up to that. The, uh, what you're trying to
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: do is slow down the whole thing, like, and get
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: into sensation. You got to get out of your head.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: Now it's one thing to say, get out of your head.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: It's another to do it. So the whole process there
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: starts with just only going so far as then you
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: communicate with her, slow down. These things have a real
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: beauty to them because when people start entering that dance
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: and communicating well with one another, all of a sudden,
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: like the magic of biology takes over and then someone thinks, oh,
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: well now it's going to go back. Then you just
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: kind of restart and do the whole thing. And nowadays,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: I think young males go quickly. They're like, I'm gonna
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: take 20 milligrams. It's a dowel fill this out. Listen,
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: that probably would help, but learning how to do this,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: this thing that we call intimacy, right? I mean, intimacy
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: is a lot of things, but knowing that what's happening
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: there is between the.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: Two of you.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: And that also means you guys, cause you know, there's
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: also been a long history of men talking about all
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: the women they slept with. And then That doesn't feel
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: good necessarily to other women. So the art of intimacy
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: is something that we've lost. And listen, I'm not saying
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: that all sexes has this element. Sometimes people just want
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: to get together and get raw, but that's an advanced
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: skill that you may or may not want to engage in.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: And I think that slowing the whole thing down, like, hey,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: we're going to be together in bed four times before
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: we ever actually have intercourse. Like that's weird to look
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: at you while I say that, but you know what
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: No, hell no. It would have been great.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: This is the kind of thing that can transform, not
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: only avoids problems, but can transform your notion of like
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: what's possible in relationship.
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: Slow, slow, slow, slow.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: And then once that intimacy is set, then there can
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: be some, you know, more adventurous exploration at speed. But,
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: you know, it's all about slowing that thing down, slowing
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: the whole process down.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, dude. Oh, dude, I remember this freaking my girlfriend
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: at the time. I was like, I thought I couldn't
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: get an erection, right? So I had her call me
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: a different name like we were making out.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: That was your solution?
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: Well, this dude Robert in our grade was getting mad erections,
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: everybody was saying. And I'd be like, call me. And I, oh,
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: this is so embarrassing. But I'd be like, call me Robert.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: Call me Robert. And it didn't fucking help when she's like,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: it was just the most embarrassed. That shit was super embarrassing, dude.
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: Cause even if I was Robert, I couldn't even get
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: an erection at the time. So that was horrible. Trying
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: to think of what else happened, dude. Oh, I've gone,
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, over the years I've gone, you know,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: down the gamut of all of it, like hiring escorts or, um,
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: you know, thinking like, oh, we need more than one part.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: Like all that, like just thinking like all these things
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: would change it, you know, drugs, alcohol, like all these
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: different things to like trying to, fine tune how I
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: would feel okay I think even just to be in
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: like a conversation like just to be like in an
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: intimate conversation like oh I wished I would have from
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: the beginning been like just with a girl I've been
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: hey like this is what's going on and this is
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: how I'm feeling and this is what's popping you know
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: and like and even made it cool or whatever and
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: it would have brought us closer together but instead I
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: took this huge bypass of like things that I thought
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: would like I thought that intimacy was just a one
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: man thing show.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: Well, that, yeah, it's so important what you're saying that
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: it was all your responsibility.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: Does that make any sense or not?
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Listen, newsflash men and women, there are women who
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: are great in bed and there are women who are
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: not great in bed. You know, there are great lovers
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: who are women. There are not great lovers. I'll tell
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: you what makes a great female lover.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 2: Somebody who can relax and enjoy herself. And part of
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: that is the communication and also somebody who's tuned into
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: what works for you. You know, it took me a
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: long time because I, listen, I think all young men
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: deal with this, right? You want to perform well. And
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 2: it's interesting, you mentioned Robert and I mentioned this other
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 2: guy that sadly eventually killed himself, but every young male
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: knows the experience of, there's like this satellite male, you're
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: holding yourself up against this image and an idea, right?
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: This image and idea, that's very dangerous thinking. You know
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: what I think? I think that every male should understand
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: that at some point you're the satellite male, you're the
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: satellite male. So you got to get out of that
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: kind of thinking and understand that like, like dancing, like athletics,
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: like it takes time to get good at, you need
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: reps and you need reps under conditions where you can learn.
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: You know, I think, you know, it sounds like you
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: put the pressure on yourself to be like a sexual
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: athlete from go. And like, you got to learn layups,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: no pun intended. You got to learn that your free throws,
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: you got to lay.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: Down, but I look at all that pornography. That's what
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: it was. I've been looking at all that porno, you know,
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: and it got me all bent out. Yeah.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: It's like, if you want to play basketball, you don't
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: go look at lethal shooters, Instagram and go, I'm gonna
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: do that tomorrow.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, he built up to that, you know? So
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: I think that, we're using an analogy here and metaphor,
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: but it's just so important that this guy.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: Is like, He just liked that, huh? Yeah, and I'll
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: tell you, no, it's reps. It's reps, reps, reps.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: He did a live one night that I caught really
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: late at night when I was in New York. He
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: can visually measure the angle the ball has to go in.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: He is shooting for the basket, but he's trying to
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: put the ball in a cone of a particular angle.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: He's looking above the basket at the angle he needs
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: to sink that thing. He'll put a gummy bear into
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: a 16-ounce bottle from across a court.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: Damn.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: And then he yells at you for doubting him.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. What's he doing here? Oh, he's,
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: what do they call that game? Game, Cornhole. What a
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: weird name for a game. Yeah, you wonder how it started. Boom.
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: Look at this guy. Beanbag. And he goes, I understand
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: it now. So. Yeah, he's really good. That man, lethal
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: shooter right there. Yeah, he reps.
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: He worked up to that. And he didn't work up
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: to it by picking up a basketball, metaphorically speaking, and saying, okay,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: I got to make this or else my life is
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: destroyed and people are going to be talking about it.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: No. So I think there has to be a private world,
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: an intimate world where people can explore in a healthy way,
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: communicate in a healthy way and know it's between them.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: And then you get to this beautiful Vista with intimacy
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: where you're like, I love this, or I love that.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I mean, uh, and it brings people together.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, listen, I mean, I want to be
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: respectful to, you know, my former partners, but you know,
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: it's one of these things where you go like, wow,
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: like I really learned something from that person. Now, of course,
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: as a man, you also have to have an ego
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: intact enough to know she learned a few things from
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: somebody else too, right? Unless it's a first relationship. This
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: notion that you're the only person that's ever been there
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: is quite rare. And part of being a grown male
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: is accepting that. And frankly, you know, different strokes for
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: different folks, you know, but I think you got to understand,
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: like we're all here because because either in a dish
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 2: or in a human sperm, met egg, okay. This drive
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: that's dopamine driven to reproduce and sex. The reason those
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: things are so closely woven is, and that drives so
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: much of culture and behavior and shame and addiction and
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: pleasure and all this stuff is because it's why we're here. Like,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is everything. And now Elon and other
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: people are talking about how the replacement rate for humans
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 2: is way, way down because we have birth control and
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: people aren't having sex as much. I mean, it is
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: possible that humans fail to replace themselves as a species.
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: And then you got guys like him who are trying
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 2: to make up for that deficit.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, he's popping off, dude. He's got like what,
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: like 14 kids or something? He'll knock up a fucking
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: parking meter with that dude. You don't give a damn, boy.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: He's the only dude who put, yeah, he put definitely,
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: he'll get it. I want to pivot a little bit.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: I saw, there's, we're starting to see stuff, like I've
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: been noticing recently these articles about measles. Have you seen
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: this stuff hitting the airwaves? Is that realistic? It just
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: starts to seem, if you can see one of them, Nick,
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: and bring it up. Person may have spread measles at
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: Shakira concert in MetLife Stadium, health officials say, right? This
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: just seems like a person who attended a Shakira concert
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: at MetLife Stadium on May 15th was infected with measles
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: and may have spread the highly contagious virus at the event,
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: health officials say. This almost reads like the beginning of
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: a movie, right? Like highly contagious, infected, spread at a concert.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: So it makes it super scary, right? All these, but like,
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: Although viruses tend to spread more quickly indoors, measles can
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: live in an airspace for up to two hours and
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: is highly transmissible, especially amongst the unvaccinated. So this is
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: an article. What's this in?
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 3: This is NorthJersey.com, which is owned by USA Today.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. Conventional media. So I'm just like, what is going
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: on here? Are they just trying to see another thing
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: that will stick to society? As a scientist, what do
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: you even think when you read something like this? Okay.
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: Super important article. specific and general question you're asking. First
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: question as a scientist I would ask is, what was
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: the frequency of people with measles coming into the hospital
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 2: before there was a focus on measles? Like two years ago,
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: before the discussion about measles and vaccines was as prominent,
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: at least measles vaccines, right? Back then it was all
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: about COVID vaccines. So I'd say, if we were to
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: look in the medical history, because hospitals keep records, this
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: was in East Rutherford. Okay, so in New Jersey, I
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: have relatives in New Jersey, how many measles cases were
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: identified in the last 10 years.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: And what percentage of those reported having been in a
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: public place prior? That's what I'd want to know, because
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: that will tell you whether or not this is the
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: media amplifying.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: Here we go. Um, Texas outbreak drives up early U.S.
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: measles cases in early 2025. Number of measles cases reported
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: in the U.S. per year.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we hear about these things like bird flu.
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 2: Remember a few years back, it was monkeypox? Yeah.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: Monkeypox.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: We don't hear about monkeypox anymore. That was like monkeypox
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: is coming for us.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, every couple months, there's something that pops off like this.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: Every few months, it's like hoof-mouth syndrome or canary baby.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 2: There are cases of measles that can be very detrimental,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 2: but there's an episode of the Brady Bunch. Do you
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: remember this episode of the Brady Bunch? where they all
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: get measles. And then at the end, Alice walks in
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 2: and she's got the spots and she goes, I've got
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: measles too. You know, when I was a kid, I
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 2: had the chickenpox. Now I'm not trying to make light
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: of the measles, right? Like any infectious disease, there's inflammation
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: of the body and brain. There are cases where these
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: diseases cause serious long-term effects. And then there are cases
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: where it has less of an effect. The most important
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: thing to understand for me would be what are the
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: real statistics of like, is measles becoming more frequent? Is
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: that tied to the shift? Because let's face it, regardless
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: of where you stand on the issue of vaccination, people
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: are now taking a look again at vaccination. The vaccine
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: schedules have expanded, right? You know, I'm part of the
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 2: medical community. I'm an employee of Stanford School of Medicine.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: And I would say I fall more, just full disclosure,
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: into the more conventional standpoint of this.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: I want to be really clear. Because of....
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: Do believe that there are certain vaccinations that are highly beneficial.
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: I also think there are a number of vaccinations that
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 2: for public health reasons should be explored further if for
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: no other reason to discover that, yes, we were right
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: or no, we were wrong. It's just critically important. I mean,
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: you know, I think any self-respecting scientist would say, those
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: are the data, let's look again. Now there's this real
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: twist in the data around the autism vaccine thing that's
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: very that's really unfortunate. And this is one of the
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: reasons why this is such a hot button issue is
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: that the guy, Andrew Wakefield, who originally tried to tie
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 2: the vaccine to autism, he was found guilty of fraud. Okay,
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: now I wasn't involved in the papers or the case,
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: but like that puts a twist in everything because- Did
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: he go to jail? I believe he did, or he
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: at least lost his medical license. Okay, there have been
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: other instances of scientific fraud, but that one in particular,
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: caused the entire field to assume he was completely wrong
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 2: about everything. And now there are folks like Robert Kennedy,
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: who is, like him or not, is our head of HHS, okay?
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: I actually know Robert.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: I actually am gonna host Che Bhattacharya, who is my
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: colleague at Stanford on the, he's the head of NIH.
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: And so I think right now there's a, here, what
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: were the consequences?
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: Andrew Wakefield did not go to prison, although he was
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: found guilty of serious professional misconduct by the UK General
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: Medical Council and was struck off the medical register, effectively
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: ending his career as a physician. There was no record
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: of evidence that he was ever criminally prosecuted or imprisoned
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: for his actions related to the fraudulent 1998 Lancet study
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: linking the MMR vaccine to autism. The sanctions against him
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: were professional and civil, not criminal.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: So an important thing that must be done, I know
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: this issue is, you know, I'm going to catch hate
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: either way.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: It's a hot issue right now.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: It's a super hot issue. Listen, as a parent, can
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: you imagine you have a kid and your kid seems
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: for all measures perfectly healthy? has some treatment, vaccine or
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: a pill or a trip to the supermarket, and that
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: kid fundamentally changes their behavior afterwards. The one thing we
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: know is this is also a deep hypothalamic circuit, as
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: we say. There is a hardwired circuit for mothers, especially.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: Dads can be protective, but mothers to protect their young.
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: So when the moms are pissed off and curious, they
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: are unrelenting. And no amount of discussion about that was
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: resolved because the Wakefield thing was gone is going to
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 2: satisfy them. So my personal take is run the studies
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: you need to run, make sure they're run properly with
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 2: an unbiased look at all of this. So important because
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: the thing about vaccines and autism is really a microcosm
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 2: for a much larger theme about how much can we
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: trust the medical community. And listen, I know scientists, I
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: was weaned in this. My dad's a scientist. Most scientists,
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: like 99.9% of scientists, want to get things right. We
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: are in the business of trying to un-tease the secrets
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: of nature and do good things with them, okay? And
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: yet there are those that will manipulate the system No
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: one goes into science to get rich. They go into
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: biotech to get rich, but you don't become a bench
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: scientist at a university to get rich.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: Trust me. But how can those scientists be manipulated as
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: a group? Like when you look back at, like, how
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: can that happen? Like, is it journals that are compromised?
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: Is it the medical energy that gets compromised? But how
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: do you have like a whole, you know? Sure.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: So I'll try and keep this relatively succinct. This is
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: a whole landscape and it's something that is like really
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: deep and important to me as a science communicator, health
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: communicator who has friends on, both sides of these debates.
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: The most important thing to understand is scientists are trying
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: to figure out the truth. They are also human and
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: they're highly incentivized to advance their careers. One of the
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: things that I've observed in science is not people making
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: up data. That's exceedingly rare. But scientists sometimes when they
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 2: don't get the answer they want in an experiment, they'll
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: come up with reasons for why that experiment probably wasn't
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: run right and maybe we should discard the.
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's say one time when they don't get.
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: When they don't get the answer they want, they will
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: come up with reasons why, oh, that antibody wasn't as
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: fresh or the conditions weren't right. And they will start
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: to steer the data, steer the- I have observed that.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: I've observed that a lot in my career, sadly. Far
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 2: less common are people outright making up data, what we
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: call fudging data, just like making up numbers. There's a
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: famous case in nanotechnology of this kid whose last name
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: was Shon- He was like a wunderkind in the sense
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: that he had like, it's very hard to publish papers
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: in science or nature. This is like the Super Bowl
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: rings of science. I've had a couple in nature, a
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: couple in science, and I feel immensely blessed for that.
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: Schoen was publishing 12 papers a year in nature and science.
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 2: And at some point, people start looking more closely at
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: their data, okay?
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: And what happened?
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 2: They saw that the random noise plots, random should be random, right?
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 2: You don't need to be a scientist or a genius
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 2: to understand that random should be random. He was so
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: lazy that he was replotting the random noise in two
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: different experiments. You can't get the same random noise in
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: two different experiments. So there are bad apples like him.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: He's gone now. But most scientists are trying to get
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: it right. And yet there's this thing that we have
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: to constantly check ourselves on. This is why you have
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: to what we call.
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: Blind the data.
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 2: You look at it not knowing what condition you're looking at.
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 2: This is why replication is so key. And the big
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: problem in science, and I do think this new administration
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 2: cares about this, It's hard to get a job as
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 2: a professor for replicating work. Everyone wants to see the
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: new thing. So a PhD student comes into my lab,
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: they want to study something. We rarely say, oh, let's
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 2: go do what someone else did and make sure they're right. No,
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: you pick something new. So a lot of mistakes of
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 2: past get kind of baked into the field. And this
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: is what happened in the Alzheimer's field. This is why
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 2: one mistake, which probably was somebody outright fudging as well,
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 2: making stuff up, kind of get woven into the lineage,
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: then other papers get published more easily. And then lo
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: and behold, 25 years later, we say, we don't have
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 2: a single good treatment for Alzheimer's. Best thing you can
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: do is get good sleep. There's a little study out
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: today about creatine maybe helping, but we're just nipping around
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 2: the corners of this extremely important problem. I must say,
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: and this is not for political correctness, listen, I'm a
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: tenured professor at Stanford, so I don't have to worry
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: about quote unquote losing my job. I mean, there are
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: ways you can lose your job even with tenure, but
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: I just want to say with all the bad things
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 2: about science, the Wakefield thing, the Alzheimer's thing, the replication crisis,
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: the lack of incentive for people to replicate work, I
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 2: do have to say something very important. There are so
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 2: many treatments for diseases that exist nowadays that we take
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 2: for granted, that were born out of basic research. Scientists
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 2: in a lab just trying to figure things out without
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: the idea of a treatment someday. My scientific great-grandparents, I
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: mentioned them earlier, David Hubel and Thornton Wiesel, did that
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: experiment of closing one eye in a kitty cat and monkey,
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 2: showed that the brain is immensely plastic. That gave birth,
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: excuse me, that gave birth to an entire field of
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: the molecules involved and the hormones involved and why it
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: shuts down with age, how to open plasticity in adulthood.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: In many ways, it's given rise to this whole field
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: of psychedelics for the treatment of brain disorders in order
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: to reopen plasticity. They did not do those experiments thinking
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: there would be any medical application, but we now know
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 2: as compared to the 70s, when a kid has a
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: lazy eye or a cataract or what we call strabismus
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 2: or any of that, we now know to get in
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: and treat those eye diseases early while the brain is
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: still plastic. Their work has saved the vision. In other words,
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: has prevented blindness of countless people around the world. And
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 2: there's this whole, initiative in places overseas to remove cataracts,
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: save vision. So I can give you a million, not
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 2: a million, I can give you thousands of examples of that.
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 2: Immunotherapies for cancer, neuroplasticity, the incredible work being done on
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: psilocybin for depression, MDMA, which hopefully will be approved by
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: the FDA soon for the treatment of PTSD. Incredible 70%
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: remission rates. The understanding of that drug, methylene, dioxin, methamphetamines,
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: methamphetamine with a little twist.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: The understanding of that was born out of serious scientists
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: slaving away in their labs for very little pay because
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: they love discovery. And I'm not saying that to just
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: kind of say, oh, all scientists are great, but I
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: think we have to be very careful. The replication crisis
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: is real. We need to take another look at all
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 2: issues related to public health. You can tell I'm very
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: passionate about this. Listen, I text Bobby all the time.
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: I'm like, listen, man, we got to look at this.
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 2: We got to look at, and you know what? We
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: can't allow ourselves to go too far in one direction
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: or the other. I say, let's not waste any time.
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: Let's take a look at all these vaccines again and
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: great controlled studies.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what did we lose by looking at them? Nothing.
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: But I'll tell you, to say what I'm saying here,
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: like I'm going to, this will be cut and clipped
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: and contorted. You know, I'm just going to come out
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: with it. Trad medias, you know, the moment I started
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: showing up on Rogan, and listen, I think Joe Rogan
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: has done tremendous amount of good for science communication. Matt Walker, me,
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 2: David Sinclair, other people on there, physicists, you know, but
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 2: then The adjacency to anyone who's asking these larger questions
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: puts you in the bullseye of, oh, you know, Andrew's
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 2: a science denier, flat earth or whatever. No, I believe
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: that any solid field should be subject to self-scrutiny and
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: outside scrutiny. And this is why, listen, I've published a
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: number of papers and I always say, listen, I'm happy
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 2: to be wrong for the right reasons. Like we were
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: trying our damnedest to get it right. You can't be
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: wrong for the wrong reasons, like making shit up. You
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: make a mistake, you correct yourself. It's called being an adult.
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: And you can tell that like this gets my energy
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: going because I will tell you, I am very concerned
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 2: about the future of science in this country either way,
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 2: because we've got to split right down the middle and
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: there's all this finger pointing and somebody, hopefully Jay Bhattacharya,
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: our new director of the NIH, God willing, he's going
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 2: to bridge this gap. I'm trying to do what I
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: can behind the scenes to really get people talking because
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: there's so much shit talking behind the, you know, I
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: hate them and I hate them.
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: But listen, we all got to live in this world.
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: Forgive me for going on a monologue. No, I don't care.
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 2: But I'm telling you.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: I'm glad.
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 2: We need to take a hard look at ourselves and
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 2: we really, really need to, whatever we explore, we need
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 2: to explore it properly. But scientists are good people, man.
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: And I don't make my living doing science anymore. So
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: I can say that with no bias. They're good people. 99.9%
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 2: of them. And those bad apples, excuse my language, but
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: fuck them.
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, for sure. Because they ruin it all for everybody. Oh, yeah. Well,
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: and it also leads to impairment. It leads to disease.
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: It leads to, you know, atrocities that happen to people.
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 1: And it's usually for the sake of profit. Do you
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: believe that big pharma would lobby against certain tests being
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: done or residual testing? re-examination of, of, of past findings,
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: et cetera, in order to keep things a certain way. Okay.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: So does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 2: So two things about big pharma, first of all, I
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: don't have any direct links to big pharma. You know,
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 2: people think, cause I'm at Stanford, I've been accused of
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 2: being part of MK ultra. I don't even know what
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: that is, but sounds scary.
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. I've been told I'm a
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: CIA plant, MK ultra. I mean, that's, Oh, dude, somebody
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: told me I went to the Middle East or something.
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: Somebody said I was working for something, Bangladesh or something.
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: I was like, dude, I've never had anybody ask me
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: to do anything. I wasn't even born.
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 2: I wasn't even born.
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: I was born in 75. So big pharma, look, they're
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: a business.
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: So there are drugs like SSRIs, which we will say
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: have been not so helpful for the treatment of depression
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 2: for most people.
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 1: But guess what?
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 2: SSRIs are tremendously helpful for people with OCD. Real OCD
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 2: is a condition where the compulsion, the behavior makes the
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: obsession worse. Imagine mosquito bite, every time you scratch it,
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 2: it just worse and worse and worse, destroys lives. SSRIs
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 2: have helped those people a lot. The drug companies are
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 2: highly incentivized to keep drugs out of generic so that
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: the prices come down.
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: They do a game.
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: I know this because I was involved in exploring drugs
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 2: for eye disease years ago, and I would learn from
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: these companies. If you can have a drug that goes
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: through all the research and development, costs millions of dollars,
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 2: and then is used, say, for the treatment of a
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: heart condition, if you can bypass the need to do
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: all the safety studies because you discovered that that drug
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 2: is now also useful for, say, preserving vision and macular
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: degeneration or glaucoma or diabetes, whatever, you save yourself a
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: lot of money. Same drug, you maintain the patent, and
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: you can't have generic competitors. So drug companies, I don't
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 2: think people talk about this enough, are highly incentivized to
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: not discover new drugs, but rather, to continue with the
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 2: same drugs and find new uses for the same drugs.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: That's rarely talked about. That's a serious problem. The other
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: thing about drug companies.
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: Because the negative side effect of that is what? Something
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: gets kind of shoehorned in and working for something, but the.
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: Very expensive drugs for everybody. Because if you look at
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 2: the difference between, like there are these new sleep medications
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 2: called the DORAs. They shut down the wakefulness system as
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 2: opposed to making you sleepy. They have a lot less
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 2: abuse potential. They're like $ 300 a month. And as long
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 2: as they can maintain the patent on that, there won't
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: be the generic version because it probably costs- The profit
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: margins on these things are huge because they're trying to
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 2: cover the research and development they did. So that's just
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 2: one example. But the drug companies are incentivized.
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Doras. I've tried them. I felt lousy. And
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: is that like Ambien or whatever? No.
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 2: So Ambien is a problem because it can give you
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 2: memory issues. This works through something that's called the hypocretinorexin system.
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 2: It was discovered in narcoleptic dogs in the basement of Stanford,
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: believe it or not. There's all sorts of cool stuff there.
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: But But the drug companies are a concern in one sense,
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 2: which is that, look, dopamine, as we learned, is involved
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 2: in movement.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: It's involved in reward.
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 2: Schizophrenics take drugs to block dopamine. And if you see
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: someone on the street corner, nowadays it's complicated with fentanyl,
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 2: but you see the person kind of writhing, it's called
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: tardive dyskinesia. That's because those drugs, the neuroleptics, as we
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: call them, reduce the auditory hallucinations. They relieve a lot
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 2: of those symptoms of schizophrenia, but it also hits dopamine
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: in the spinal system. the motor system, and then they
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 2: have these motor side effects. So the problem is most
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 2: pharmaceuticals have side effects because most chemicals like dopamine, serotonin, acetylcholine,
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 2: they're in multiple places in the brain, not just the
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: area that you're concerned about repairing. So, you know, I'm
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: not super anti-big pharma, but I will say I am
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 2: very pro self-directed healthcare. That's why I'm, you know, a
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 2: big part of my initiative with the podcast is get
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: people getting sunlight in their eyes in the evening, get
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: some sunlight in your eyes in the morning, excuse me,
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 2: sunlight in your eyes in the morning, hydrate, exercise, get
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: on a normal circadian rhythm. One of the most important
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: things for mental health is bright mornings and days, dark nights.
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: And how do you get on that circadian rhythm, man?
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: That's something that I've struggled with. I think my circadian
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: rhythm is, God, I'm going to turn into a cicada.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: Well, we got to get you some of the red
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 2: lens glasses. I'm not doing a promotional here, but getting
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: the screens dim or wearing red lens glasses in the
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: evening to block the blue and green lights.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: But how do you even set up a circadian rhythm?
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: Bright light in the morning. If you wake up and
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 2: the sun's out, get outside, take that brimmed hat off,
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: take the sunglasses off, look in the direction of the sun.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 2: You don't have to force yourself to look. Get five
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 2: to 15 minutes of sunlight, drink your coffee, get some exercise,
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 2: maybe even do like 100 jumping jacks. Get your system going.
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 2: Very simple way to put this is early in the day,
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: you want movement, caffeine, hydration, sunlight. If you can't get sunlight,
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: you get bright light from like an artificial light. You
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 2: can get a 10,000 lux light on Amazon for like
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 2: a hundred bucks. I have no relationship to any of
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: those companies. Get your morning kind of going. You know,
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 2: it's hard to be Jocko Willink. It's hard, but you
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 2: got to kind of force a little bit of that
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: on yourself. And then the afternoon taper off the caffeine,
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 2: dim the screens, lower your heart rate, do some long
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: exhale breathing, you know, just take it down a notch.
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 2: And over about three days of doing that, what you'll
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 2: find is I start to wake up in anticipation of
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 2: the day. You have this circadian rhythm that learns, well,
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be active in a few hours. And
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: you start waking up in the morning at a particular time.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 2: That whole phenomenon, you set your clock for 7 a.m.
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 2: and you wake up at 6.59. Your brain is clocking time.
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: So does that mean you need to go to bed
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: at like 8 p.m. for a week to get your
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: circadian rhythm set? Or what's the truth? Everyone's slightly different,
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: different chronotypes.
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 2: So I do best, for instance, I know if I
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 2: had total control going to bed sometime between 10 and
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: 11 p.m. and I wake up around 6 a.m. Okay, yes,
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 2: I can go to bed at nine and wake up
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 2: at four, but I can't stick to that schedule very long.
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 2: My system just genetically is not wired for it. Some
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 2: people are real night owls. They do best going to
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: sleep at 2 a.m. and waking up at 10. They
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 2: just feel better. try a couple of different schedules for
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 2: at least three days. And then wherever you feel kind
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 2: of most yourself, kind of like, you know, for me
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 2: going to bed by 1030 and waking up by six
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: is kind of a natural antidepressant. When I sleep in
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 2: and go to bed late, I start feeling off. Then
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: I start abusing caffeine because I love caffeine. Love, love,
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 2: love caffeine. And I'm a big fan of caffeine, but
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: then I start abusing it. I start taking too much.
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, And then it potentially can drift
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: into other stimulants. And then you're a mess. But some
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 2: people do really well going to bed at 8.30 and
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 2: waking up at 4 a.m. But look, the world is
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 2: not really wired for that. If you're going to have
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: any kind of social life.
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: Like Mark Wahlberg or something. He's always, the thing's like,
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: I wake up at three.
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: Well, him and Ari Emanuel from WME, like, yeah, those
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 2: guys are like the 4 a.m.
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: Club.
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 2: They're like texting each other and like up. I get
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 2: texts from Ari every once in a while.
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: He's like, man, up early. He's hyperbaric.
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: But he's, I mean, he's got like 12 cylinders.
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: That guy's like, go, go, go, go, go, go.
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: And listen, some people need more sleep than others. I
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 2: do great on six or six and a half. When
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: I sleep eight, I actually feel more groggy. So if
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: you get your schedule right, you don't need quite as
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: much sleep. But before I came out here today, I
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 2: did a half hour, what I call, it used to
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 2: be called yoga nidra. It's non-sleep deep rest, NSDR. You
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: just do long exhale breathing. You listen to a script,
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 2: you relax your body. The data show you come out
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 2: of that with your dopamine level 60%. higher than you
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 2: went into it. It replenishes your, your vigor.
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: Yoga Nidra.
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Yoga Nidra or NSDR, non-sleep depressed. And these
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 2: are zero cost tools, right?
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 2: So how many.
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: Milligrams of caffeine are you taking a day? Are you
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: usually taking a day for this? Yeah. All right.
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: A normal cup of coffee would be about 200 milligrams
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 2: of strong coffee. I consume about 800 milligrams of caffeine
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 2: a day. I drink, uh, I'm half Argentine. So I drink,
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 2: I drink yerba mate. A cold brew zero sugar yerba mate,
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 2: or I drink yerba mate out the gourd. If you're
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 2: going to drink yerba mate, don't get the sugary kind.
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 1: Nope.
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 2: Get the loose leaf. No, I have a yerba mate brand.
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: It's not that one.
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 2: Ours is Matina, which is, I'm not going to do
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: a promotional here, but the point here is that if
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 2: you like energy drinks, you like yerba mate, you like coffee,
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 2: I'm like more power to you.
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 1: So there's 200 in a cup of coffee?
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And what's in one of these?
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: What's in one of these?
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 2: So there was actually a study just published on taurine
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: that everyone's worried about, but that study was in vitro.
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 2: I need to see a lot of data. There's a
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 2: lot of data, actually, that taurine is beneficial for the heart.
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 2: And it has kind of an anti-aging thing. It's in
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of energy drinks.
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 1: Including this one. Yeah, it's like a lysine and a taurine.
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 2: I love caffeine. I mean, man, caffeine and nicotine, right
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 2: now I'm kind of easing back on it. The delivery
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 2: mechanism matters. You don't want to smoke, vape, dip, or snuff.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: You get cancer.
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 2: People go, oh, vaping's not that bad. Popcorn lung is real.
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 2: People hate me for saying this. Vaping is bad. Not
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 2: as bad as smoking. Vaping ain't good for you.
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 1: And what flavor is the worst flavor? Any flavor? It's
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 1: all bad for you, man.
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 2: But the gums and the pouches, provided it's a low dose,
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 2: it's very habit forming. But three to six milligrams or
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 2: something on occasion, this is the problem. People go pretty soon,
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 2: they're doing a whole canister a day.
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. But I got a buddy got a fucking
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 1: mouthful of my buddy, like damn Cotton Eye Joe over there.
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 2: Nicotine's a very interesting drug because it's a stimulant, but
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: it relaxes you too. But it does cause, excuse me, vasoconstriction.
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: And that's not good for all the stuff we were
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 2: talking about earlier. You want blood flow to the brain
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 2: and to your extremities, you know? And so some nicotine
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 2: early in the day, little bit, no big deal with
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 2: caffeine to get work done. Remember, effort that precedes dopamine
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: in constructive areas of life, writing comedy, podcasting, school, sports,
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 2: socializing in healthy ways. Like this is good.
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: Can you get just as much dopamine from doing those
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: positive things as you can from doing things that we
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: would consider, you know, that off sometimes add a level
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: of a disappointment or shame. And maybe shame is not
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: the word I want to use.
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, you can. It just, you need to be more
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 2: determined and focused on it. You know, remember it's how
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 2: quickly the dopamine comes in with porn and methamphetamine, cocaine,
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 2: and all of that. It's how quickly gambling raises dopamine.
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 2: You know, the stuff we're talking about, work, focus, learning,
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 2: all that, it's work. I mean, it's hard work, but
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 2: the effort that precedes dopamine is a completely different beast
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: because you're in control and it doesn't put you in
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 2: the trough. But I did see a, you know, I
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 2: guess we don't call them tweets now. What do we
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 2: call them? On X, Some guy made a billion dollars.
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 2: And a couple of weeks later, he said, I don't
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 2: know what's going on, but I feel like I'm societally depressed.
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 2: And I just said, that's dopamine. He got the reward.
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 2: And what he misses is the hunt. You have to
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: stay in the hunt. This is like the will to
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 2: live is the hunt for new things.
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: Ah, the will to live. 31-year-old guy who sells his
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: startup for 100 million shares, why he is depressed and
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 1: how to think about your career and life. I sold
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: my company, MVMT. I know that company that made watches, right?
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: A few years ago for a lot of money and
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 1: thought all my problems would be solved. I made my
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: life really cushy and comfortable. I optimized for being as
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 1: stress-free as possible. I play video games when I want.
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 1: I wake up when I want and really have no
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 1: reason to get out of bed if I don't want to.
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 1: I always thought this was a dream and I'd be
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 1: happy forever. I realized I'm in an incredibly unique situation
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 1: and wanted to share some things I've learned and I'm
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: still working through.
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, for you, You know, and forgive me, I've
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 2: been monologuing a bit because I just want to make
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 2: sure I blast through some of this info that hopefully
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 2: people can make to use. We can always talk about
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: it again. But I, you know, for you, right, you've
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: got the podcast. You do your comedy tours. You know,
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not a comedian, but I love going to see
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 2: live comedy.
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, it's fun.
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 2: And I just have to imagine that staying busy in
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 2: pursuit has got to be super important to your overall well-being.
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 1: Well, it's funny you say it. I think it's like....
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that I liked to work really, you know,
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, I knew that I was persistent maybe, and
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 1: I liked comedy, but then like, as other things have
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 1: started to arise and like learning the podcast and then
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 1: you're running a business and then, you know, I, I
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: like to work, you know, I really enjoy it. I
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: think I'm probably competitive in some ways.
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: Um, do you have a, uh, you don't, I'm not
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 2: going to ask you to tell us, but do you
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 2: have a couple of comedians in your mind that like,
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: you're like, I can, can best that or is it
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 2: besting against yourself oh no.
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: I think it's just can you still make yourself laugh
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 1: that's my thing.
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 2: Is that what's your writing i'm very curious about this
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 2: what's your writing process.
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 1: Oh i'll talk to somebody usually i'm telling i'm trying
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 1: to talk with a gal and entertain her or talk
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: with one of my buddies entertain them and there's something
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: that'll get said that's just kind of like oh that's
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: perfect man um so that's kind of how i'll do
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: it and then i'll put it on a stage from
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 1: there you know and i'll record my sets and um
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 1: And I've started to put some of them into like
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: chat GPT or AI so it can like show me
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: what was new during this one or the last one
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: and learn a little intricacies and things like that, things
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 1: that worked and things that changed.
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 2: Do you get ideas in your dreams? Do you ever
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 2: wake up laughing?
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: Ayahuasca, I've gotten ideas. I've gotten, I got like some
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 1: good bits. How often are you doing? Maybe every 18 months.
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of due again to do something like that.
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 1: I want to talk to this guy, Brian Hubbard, I
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: believe his name, who does the Ibogaine. He talks about Ibogaine.
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 2: I've been very, I'm not, I can't take any credit
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 2: for that project, but my colleague at Stanford, Nolan Williams,
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 2: triple board certified psychiatrist and neurologist. He's the one running
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 2: the brain imaging of the veterans that Brian has been
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 2: bringing down to Mexico to do the Ibogaine DMT work.
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 2: And Nolan has discovered there are these changes in brain
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 2: areas like the insula, which are involved in kind of self-reflection,
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 2: self-body relationship, all sorts of things. The data from those
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 2: studies are incredible. I mean, these tier one operators, you know,
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 2: which is code for have to be ready in 24
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 2: hours to go overseas and kill a.
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 1: High risk, high consequence work.
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 2: The number of those guys I've talked to that were
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 2: dependent on alcohol, drugs, and other substances that go down
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 2: there and do it once or twice and never even
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 2: feel the desire to use again. It's just striking.
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 2: The Ibogaine sounds amazing. I also hear it's terrifying. A
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 2: couple of those guys told me, and they have a
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 2: high bar for this, a couple of those guys have
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 2: told me it is the most terrifying experience of their
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 2: entire life. But also brought them the most amount of peace. Well,
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 2: it's a 22-hour psychedelic journey, followed by DMT.
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: Are you asleep during it?
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 2: No, you're awake. And what I hear is that you
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 2: don't hallucinate when your eyes are open, but when you
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: close your eyes, you get high-definition recall of previous experiences,
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: but you have agency. You can act differently in there
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 2: and rewire. I've never done it. I'm very curious to
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 2: do it. I've never done ayahuasca. I have had some
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 2: incredibly beneficial clinical experiences with MDMA and with psilocybin. Uh,
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: and it's just complete, I would, you know, I don't
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 2: encourage kids to do it, but you need a really
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 2: good practitioner. You have to find a way to do
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 2: it legally in there are ways, but man, it is
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 2: a game changer.
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: A lot of bootleg stuff going on out there, but
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: I do think that, yeah, it's like getting back to nature,
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 1: getting back to the roots and literally you're getting back
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: to the roots of like what will, uh, what can reorganize.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 1: I think the nature inside of us, it gets so
• 2:08:56
  Speaker 1: rattled by, um, us maneuvering it and existing in the world.
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know how we managed to damage our own
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 1: nature so much over time.
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe it's, uh, instead of saying, uh, lesbians will
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: save us all it's, uh, lesbians and psychedelics will save
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 2: us all. That's kind of my new campaign.
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: Look at this guy right here. That's Rick Rubin.
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 2: That's no, I was saying earlier, you know, that's me
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 2: when it comes to, uh, being able to see clearly
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 2: along certain, uh, dimensions of life, but that's when you
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 2: come to rely on good friends. And you do your
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 2: inner journey work and figure it out.
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think it's fascinating. And I think
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 1: just the fact that we can get- Can I get
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 1: a copy of that? This thing is awesome. Man. How'd
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 1: y'all get that?
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 2: Just chat GPT.
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's so great.
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 3: Cock a monkey blindfolded on LSD.
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I've looked at decisions I've made in my life
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 2: and go, you know, I pretty much had the clarity
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 2: that that guy right there had. And, uh, but in
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 2: other areas of my life, like the decision to go
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: into skateboarding and leave the decision to pursue science and
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: then podcasting and, you know, my life's a dream, man.
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 2: Like, I can't tell you, like, you know, people will
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 2: think I'm just trying to puff you up, but like
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 2: to be sitting here talking to you, I'm a fan
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 2: to be able to explore ideas and to learn from
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 2: such a diverse array of people. Like I love talking
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 2: to scientists, but I love talking to comedians and creatives and,
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 2: Like my childhood hero became one of my best friends
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 2: because he heard the podcast and- Really?
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of embarrassing to say, but Tim Armstrong,
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 2: the singer for Rancid and the Transplants, he has that
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 2: band with Rob Astin and Travis Barker. I mean, Tim's
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 2: like my hero and we've become very good friends. He's
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 2: a real life poet. He's an incredible musician. He's produced
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 2: a ton of music for others. He's a very, you know, soft-spoken.
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 2: He's a true music- producer and performer.
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 1: That's fascinating.
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 2: And he, we became, he's one of my best friends.
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 1: That's like me and David Spade. I just can't even
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 1: believe that we're buddies. And then I get to like
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 1: ask him about stuff or even listen to him tell
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 1: jokes over dinner. Like, yeah. Sometimes things like that, like
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 1: not to name drop, but yeah, it just blows your mind.
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 1: Some of the people you'll get to come across, you know?
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 2: Well, and for people listening, I, I, you know, I
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 2: have to say like, I used to watch and, you know,
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 2: watch things and read and listen to podcasts. And like,
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be part of it. but like being myself.
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 2: And that's really the key. Rick always says this. He's
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 2: like the way to succeed in any genre that you're
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 2: interested in is to be you. Cause no one's done
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 2: that yet. The moment you try and be like the,
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 2: the other guy, you know, or the other gal is
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 2: when it falls flat. Right. The reason Tony Hawk's Tony
• 2:11:35
  Speaker 2: Hawk is cause he's a pioneer and he just kept going.
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 2: There's only one of him, you know, and there are
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 2: others in skateboarding and others in podcasting, but like, like
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 2: it's like that trust in, in self. You just have to,
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 2: if you just show up, you, and do your personal
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 2: work too. I do think, you know, journaling, meditation, working out,
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 2: maybe psychedelics. Yeah, it's a relationship with you. Yeah, like,
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 2: and you just show up you. So like, you know,
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 2: I think we got the answer to your initial question.
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 2: Why is podcasting what it is? It's because like, we
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 2: just show up.
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: We didn't have a template. There's no script, nothing. We
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: just show up. Just a couple guys in their closets, man.
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about finger lengths and lesbians and monkeys
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 2: on LSD and measles vaccine and some of the biggest
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 2: issues in public health. And, you know, your name was,
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 2: mentioned in a moment of praise at the inauguration of
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 2: the president of the United States.
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's crazy.
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 2: We are living, I don't think we're living in a simulation.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 2: I think what's so freaking awesome about this life is
• 2:12:30
  Speaker 2: it's real. Not that it's fake. It's all the shit
• 2:12:34
  Speaker 2: that's real that blows my mind.
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: And just, I think what you can be called upon
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 1: to be a part of, you know, and taking agency,
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 1: having some more agency. The biggest thing I noticed in
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 1: my life is how do I get to know myself better?
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 1: And get to utilize myself better. And not just for me,
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 1: but for like, and really to listen to God better.
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: How do I learn to have a relationship with something
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 1: that's bigger than me so that I can get better direction,
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 1: you know, and better peace at times. Because God's not
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 1: just there for direction. I believe that he's also there
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 1: for reflection and for rest, you know. And just to
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 1: be able to, you know, I don't know.
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 2: Do you pray every day?
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 1: I pray every day, yeah. Me too.
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 2: I'm a scientist, but I'm a believer. You know, I've
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 2: always believed in God and I used to hide praying
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 2: because I grew up in a complicated home religiously for different,
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 2: we've got a real mixed family, but also like the
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 2: attitudes about religion, very mixed, some very positive, some not positive.
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 2: But a few years ago, a friend of mine who
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 2: was a former tier one operator and he's run some
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 2: of my security stuff, like he encouraged me to start
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 2: reading the Bible. And I was like, wow, there's so
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 2: much wisdom here. And then he encouraged me to start
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 2: praying and it's, I know people are gonna, some people
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 2: roll their eyes. Some people will be like, get it immediately.
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 2: When you start praying before sleeping in the morning. Yeah,
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 2: I prayed right before I came in here. Went in
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 2: the bathroom, I literally get on my knees and pray
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 2: before anything important this morning at night. And you know, people,
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 2: how can you be a scientist and believe in God?
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 1: And it's like, well, easy.
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 2: Because as a scientist, you learn that like, even as a,
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 2: let's just say a vision scientist, there are animals that
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 2: can see parts of the visual spectrum that we can't
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 2: see UV light, infrared light, pit vipers can see it.
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 2: Mosquitoes see things we don't see. So the moment you
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 2: start just thinking, wait, our human brain can understand and
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 2: make sense of certain things, but not others through logic
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 2: and reasoning and emotion, you go, well, there's this not
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 2: just possibility of an entire set of energies out there
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 2: that we're not aware of. It's absolutely certain. And then
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 2: you go, well, that's a big leap to the idea
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 2: that there's a guy or, you know, and his son
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 2: is the, you know, is, uh, you know, is Christ
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 2: and Christ was resurrected. But when you start reading the
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 2: stories and you start like looking at our real world experience,
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 2: you go, you know, so much.
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 1: Of this makes sense.
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't make nature and science any less interesting.
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 2: It makes it more interesting. It makes it more important.
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 2: It's like, we're here, I believe that we're here to like,
• 2:15:05
  Speaker 2: access that energy, allow it come through us. I don't
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 2: think like we podcast, I think energy comes through us
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 2: and we podcast.
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think the funnest thing sometimes is like getting
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 1: an idea. Cause I'm like, this didn't come from me.
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 1: What the hell am I doing? I'm just like something
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 1: out here that's trying to position myself to be the
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 1: best receptor. It's almost like when you're trying to like
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 1: put those dog ears out for a television or whatever,
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 1: like an old black and white TV, you're trying to
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 1: pick up the signal. It's like, I'm just trying to
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 1: best get myself in situation to receive a decent signal.
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 2: Do you believe, sorry, yesterday I was in a conversation
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 2: with a Stanford and Harvard trained psychiatrist, one of the
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 2: smartest people I know. And he said to me, he said,
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 2: you know, these are him talking. He said, you know,
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 2: I believe in miracles. He's like, there are miracles. And
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 2: I was like, really? And he explained a case of
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 2: a patient, like there is no way this person should
• 2:15:54
  Speaker 2: still be alive, let alone flourishing as they are. The
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 2: number of things that had to organize for that to
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 2: work out. And, um, You know, so I'm kind of
• 2:16:01
  Speaker 2: obsessed these days with like this notion of miracles.
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. Have you considered, because we will
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 1: sometimes interview people who have had a miracle experience happen
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 1: to them. And it's really fascinating sometimes just to hear
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 1: some of their stories. It's something I would like to
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 1: do more. One of the things I want to do
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 1: is just, I want to come over to your pod, man.
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 1: Next time I'm in town. Let's do it. And we
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 1: can do this again sometime. I feel like we only
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 1: got to talk about a few things, but that's perfect.
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 1: It'll give us more stuff to talk about in the future.
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 1: And just thank you, Andrew, for just being a good voice.
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 1: You have a lot to say and you share information well.
• 2:16:29
  Speaker 1: And it's like, I think we're at a time where
• 2:16:31
  Speaker 1: people just need to have information that isn't compromised by
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 1: like a bank or an advertiser that's telling someone they
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 1: have to speak a certain way, you know, unless it's
• 2:16:39
  Speaker 1: an advertisement where you're reading for Tocovas or for liquid
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 1: IV or something, you know. But, yeah, thank you for
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 1: all your commitment to sharing information with us, man. Thank you. Yeah,
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 1: and thanks for spending time with us today. Yeah, thanks
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 1: for having me on.
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 2: And I want to say, you know, the universal love
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 2: that I see out there for you is not a coincidence.
• 2:16:58
  Speaker 2: you know, it's, it's so interesting. Like people can't put
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 2: you in a box. And I, and I love that
• 2:17:02
  Speaker 2: because there's so much pressure to like put people in
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 2: a box and people really, people really feel your heart
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 2: in everything you do. And it, in part, it's the vulnerability.
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 2: It's also when you, when you say like the hell
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 2: with that and really stretch your wings, the way you've
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 2: developed this incredible expertise at the various things you do,
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 2: comedy and others. So, you know, I'm very grateful to
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 2: be here today. I'm a fan and you just have
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 2: the love of so many people and it's not an accident, man. You're, you're,
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 2: You're a real leader, and I appreciate you.
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 1: That's very nice of you to say, man. I appreciate it.
• 2:17:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much. That's a very thoughtful thing to say. And, yeah,
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 1: thank you for being here today, and I look forward
• 2:17:39
  Speaker 1: to seeing you out in Malibu.
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it again on the HLP.
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 1: Amen. Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I
• 2:17:46
  Speaker 1: feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone Oh,
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 1: but when I reach that ground I'll share this peace
• 2:17:58
  Speaker 1: of mind I found I can feel it in my
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 1: bones