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Demonic Oppression - The Invisible Attack · HOLOSKY PODCAST

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever had a thought in your mind that was so completely out of character?
0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It actually made you question where it came from?
0:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe you've been sitting alone in your house perfectly comfortable when suddenly you're overwhelmed by the feeling that something is watching you.
0:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing moves, nobody's there.
0:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But for whatever reason, you can't shake the feeling that you're not alone.
0:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of us have experienced something like this at some point in our lives.
0:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And for the most part, we don't give it much thought.
0:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's stress, maybe it's anxiety.
0:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe our brains are just doing what brains do.
0:36
[SPEAKER_01]: But throughout history, people have believed that some of these experiences could have another explanation, something external.
0:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Something capable of influencing your thoughts, your emotions,
0:51
[SPEAKER_01]: and the strange thing is, according to certain religious traditions, that influence doesn't necessarily require possession.
1:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to lose control of your body.
1:03
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to speak in strange languages.
1:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You might not even realize something is happening to you.
1:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So how would you know?
1:11
[SPEAKER_01]: How could you possibly distinguish an ordinary psychological experience from something deliberately trying to interfere with your life?
1:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you sought help, whether from a doctor or a priest, would either want to be able to tell you for certain what was happening.
1:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So now we're taking a look at something that doesn't get nearly as much attention as demonic possession, demonic oppression.
1:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And the possibility that some of the most disturbing encounters aren't the ones where something tastes control of you, but the ones where you never really know if something is there at all.
1:56
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
2:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the Hollow Sky podcast.
2:56
[SPEAKER_00]: We are your host, I'm Stephen and Kyle.
3:00
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5:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And just like that, hollow cult, we are back.
5:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle's about to take us into the not so wonderful world of the Monica Prussian.
5:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
5:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And tonight's episode is more educational than anything.
5:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're here for learning.
5:41
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
5:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to learn some stuff.
5:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually did learn some stuff while researching this, which is great.
5:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I like knowledge.
5:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I am going to start it off with an experience and then we're going to kind of get into the subject of demonic oppression and how much it's just interesting to me, how all of it pieces together, how symptoms go across the board from medical and religious and it just
6:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So in November of 2003, crisis magazine published an investigation by journalist Tom Hookes titled The Dark Backward, Demons in the Real World.
6:34
[SPEAKER_01]: This article examines several individuals who believe they had experienced demonic activity, including a man identified only as James.
6:42
[SPEAKER_01]: James' story is particular, or in particular is exactly what I'm looking for in this episode because we have heard plenty
6:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, it's the one that makes the cut more times than not, but I'm more curious right now on the oppression aspect of these encounters.
7:03
[SPEAKER_01]: James' experiences weren't limited to a single haunting or one frightening encounter.
7:10
[SPEAKER_01]: According to his account, they began when he was a child and continued well into his adult life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said,
7:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We're pretty accustomed to hearing about possession cases.
7:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But what James was going through was a little hard to recognize.
7:26
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the feeling of an unseen force was deliberately interfering with his life.
7:31
[SPEAKER_01]: At least that's how James viewed what was happening to him.
7:37
[SPEAKER_01]: James traces earliest experience back when he was 10 years old.
7:41
[SPEAKER_01]: He was a loan whose bedroom approached, and it was approaching midnight when he was suddenly overwhelmed by terror, and he realized he couldn't move, which that right there sounds like classic sleep paralysis.
7:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But in James's case, something very different happens.
8:00
[SPEAKER_01]: His radio actually comes on and starts playing Pink Floyd's brain damage.
8:06
[SPEAKER_01]: James said he was completely paralyzed while feeling like someone or something was in the room
8:12
[SPEAKER_01]: On its own, the experienced Ops, but James said this pattern would repeat itself throughout his entire life, he would suddenly send something threatening nearby and afterwards something unusual would happen.
8:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes these incidents involved unexplained noises or objects behaving strangely, other times they involved encounters with people or circumstances that James interpreted
8:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And as he has a grew older, the experience became increasingly difficult to manage.
8:49
[SPEAKER_01]: One incident actually takes place in a Catholic church.
8:52
[SPEAKER_01]: James described becoming overwhelmed by an experience that ultimately resulted in several men physically restraining him.
9:00
[SPEAKER_01]: He attempted to reach the Tabernacle, which is the place where the consecrated Eucharist is kept.
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: James was transported to a psychiatric hospital.
9:15
[SPEAKER_01]: According to the account, James believed during the journey that he had actually died in an inert hell.
9:23
[SPEAKER_01]: He later described the experience as one of the most psychologically devastating moments of his life.
9:29
[SPEAKER_01]: He actually in love speaking, are spending a week in psychiatric care.
9:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Catholic physician evaluated him and did not identify a mental illness requiring continued hospitalization.
9:43
[SPEAKER_01]: James also consulted Jesuit priest Father John Harden who reportedly supported the conclusion that his experiences were not adequately adequately explained by psychiatric illness.
10:06
[SPEAKER_01]: even his family reported unusual incidents.
10:11
[SPEAKER_01]: James's sister, Carolyn, worked as a dispatcher for security company.
10:18
[SPEAKER_01]: She claimed that while speaking with James on the telephone, another line would sometimes receive bizarre calls featuring strange voices, laughter, and unintelligible
10:31
[SPEAKER_01]: James also described a disturbing encounter with a woman who approached him in public and delivered a message he interpreted as connected to his earlier experiences.
10:41
[SPEAKER_01]: His brother Glenn recalled allowing James to stay at his house.
10:46
[SPEAKER_01]: According to Glenn, doors that had been locked appeared to unlock themselves without explanation.
10:53
[SPEAKER_01]: These incidents were among the reasons.
10:55
[SPEAKER_01]: James and his family came to believe that something was following him, rather than simply haunting one particular location.
11:03
[SPEAKER_01]: For the article, Hoops discussed James' experiences with Father Herman, a Catholic priest who had assisted people reporting demonic activity.
11:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Father Herman, distinguished several categories of alleged demonic influence.
11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Possession, explained, involved in entity exercising control of our person's body or consciousness.
11:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Oppression is different.
11:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It involves what he considered external attacks or harassment directed toward an individual.
11:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Potentially causing fear, exhaustion, discouragement, and physical disturbances, without the complete loss of bodily control associated with possession.
11:46
[SPEAKER_01]: James' experience experiences were discussed within that framework, what makes his account especially interesting is that James himself struggled with uncertainty.
12:05
[SPEAKER_01]: His sister explained that most people who knew James wouldn't have suspected anything unusual about him.
12:13
[SPEAKER_01]: He could function normally, interact with other others, and appear hourly healthy.
12:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But privately, it was a different story.
12:22
[SPEAKER_01]: He continued to experience events that he believed were connected to a malevolent presence.
12:28
[SPEAKER_01]: With the accumulation of experiences, the inability to explain them and the uncertainties
12:36
[SPEAKER_01]: is what made this all so terrifying.
12:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's explore some demonic oppression.
12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: When a person says that, you know, demonic oppression, we're typically discussing that through the Christian or Catholic understanding of the supernatural.
12:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But the belief of supernatural beings interfering with someone's physical and mental well-being is considerably older than Christianity.
13:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So in the earliest surviving, written evidence of people attempting to protect themselves from hostile spirits comes from ancient Mesopotamia, thousands of years before the birth of Christ.
13:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of the spirits were believed to cause illness, misfortune, nightmares, physical suffering, along with other disturbances without ever taking control of a person.
13:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, ancient Mesopotamia encompass civilizations such as Samarians, Acadians, Babylonians, and Acerians.
13:38
[SPEAKER_01]: These societies developed extensive religious and medical traditions, including systems for identifying illnesses and determining what might have caused them.
13:48
[SPEAKER_01]: As expected, because they don't have access to modern medicine, they began to understand disease,
14:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So a person experiencing a persistent fever, unusual pain, bad dreams, or sudden deterioration of their health might be understood as suffering from the influence of a hostile spirit, curse, or even divine punishment.
14:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't mean the person was possessed because it could have been that the supernatural force was acting upon the person from the outside.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One important collection of ancient texts was known as the, I'm not, I just have no idea how to say this.
14:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the most ridiculous word I've ever seen in my life.
14:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that.
14:38
[SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty much how I'm gonna pronounce it.
14:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It spelled U-T-U-K-K-U-L-E-M-N-U-T-U.
14:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Two words there.
14:55
[SPEAKER_01]: which is translated as evil demons nailed it with dialect and everything I mean at least I can speak ancient Samarion now so yeah when you said that I was like oh is that a Samarion god talking I almost described it as ancient small in oh you know
15:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I didn't roam, right?
15:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I didn't roam.
15:22
[SPEAKER_00]: When when when in Sumer, when in Somalia, yeah, it's kind of the same, really.
15:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, old, old, old world.
15:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, like I said, this two words translated as evil demons.
15:39
[SPEAKER_01]: The incantations describe dangerous supernatural beings and prescribe rituals intended to protect people from their influence.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A version of this circulated for centuries and later collections were copied by a Syrian and Babylonian scholars.
15:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Ancient Mesopotamia had specialists known as the SPIU.
16:08
[SPEAKER_01]: These people would perform rituals, recite incantations, and attempt to identify supernatural forces to leave to be responsible for illness and misfortune.
16:19
[SPEAKER_01]: They also develop practical treatments involving substances, preparations, and observations of physical symptoms.
16:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So even thousands of years ago, there wasn't always a clean separation between treating the body and addressing what people believed as a supernatural cause.
16:37
[SPEAKER_01]: A patient might receive practical medical treatment alongside undergoing rituals intended to remove the hospital's spirit influence.
16:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you move forward into ancient Jewish traditions and start to encounter ideas that would eventually become influential in Christianity.
16:55
[SPEAKER_01]: The Hebrew Bible contains accounts of harmful spiritual influences.
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: One in particular is in the book of Job, Job experiences a series of devastating misfortunes, including the loss of his possessions, the deaths of his children, and a painful psychological affliction.
17:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Through all of this Job isn't described as possessed, he remains himself throughout the entire situation.
17:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So even though he is suffering physically emotionally and spiritually, he does not become a vessel controlled by another personality.
17:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Another example in early Christianity is in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 13.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The passage describes a woman who had been physically disabled for 18 years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was bent over and unable to straighten herself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Jesus heals the woman and describes her as someone whom Satan had bound for 18 years.
17:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So here, you have a long term physical affliction with what is said to be Satan's influence.
17:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Showing early Christianity scripture associating supernatural evil with physical suffering without being possessed.
18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So through these examples, and I'm sure many, many more, it allowed later Christian
18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: distinguishing the difference between different forms of demonic influence, as Christianity developed those distinctions are as Christianity developed those distinctions became increasingly important.
18:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Christian writers were explicitly discussing differences between spirits that attacked people externally and spirits believed to inhabit or control them.
18:33
[SPEAKER_01]: In 1597, King James VI, I believe, of Scotland published a work titled, Dame and Allogy.
18:43
[SPEAKER_01]: James apparently was deeply interested in witchcraft, demons, and a supposed influence of supernatural forces on humanity.
18:53
[SPEAKER_01]: In the book, he distinguished between spirits that troubled people outwardly and those that possessed them inwardly.
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So by these examples, oppression is going to be considered in its external attack of things like physical torment, illness, or persistent harassment.
19:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Possession is an inward attack that the spirit is able to take control of a person.
19:18
[SPEAKER_01]: One of his odd takes on this is that supernatural attacks could be permitted as punishment and also be understood as tests endured by virtuous people.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It was also acknowledged that innocent people could become under attack for no reason at all.
19:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So now we move into the more modern distinction between demonic oppression, our demonic obsession and demonic oppression.
19:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't realize that these were two explicitly different things.
19:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I know when I was kind of digging into it, there's a, there's a few different tiers like there's oppression, possession, what was the one you just obsession obsession, is there an infestation?
20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's probably one of them by, or it may be like interchangeable.
20:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be one of those.
20:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But I know there's a bunch of different different tiers based on I don't want to say severity, but because you kind of outlined oppression and possession well now oppression and obsession are they're similar.
20:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are two completely different roads.
20:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is one of the things that I actually learned while doing this research is that by modern guidelines, I guess researchers and scholars and probably actually have since labeled the different forms of attacks from evil spirits.
21:17
[SPEAKER_01]: oppression and possession is the would the three that kind of get highlighted in what I was finding.
21:25
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, uh, which is right on the on the path that your research in here.
21:31
[SPEAKER_00]: This is demonic infestation refers to extraordinarily diabolical activity where spirit or demon exerts influence over a physical location and object or an animal rather than human body.
21:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Not tire necessarily tied to a geographical location, but something that's outside of like influencing the person as is, you know what I mean.
21:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
22:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, it falls into, oh, kind of into oppression.
22:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of.
22:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say it should probably be on this list.
22:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I know there was definitely some, yeah, there's definitely different tears, like I said, this is something that I learned because obsession, it's a very bizarre label for the symptoms that are affiliated with the session, which we'll get into.
22:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Because like if, if it were the example of the guy that you gave right right off the rip, if it were an infestation, it would
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: like confined to the house or to an object.
22:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I would view it.
22:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
22:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Which maybe that's the separating barrier is that infestation is more location-based where these other three are more individual-based.
22:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's more, the other three are more personal.
23:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's kind of...
23:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Which definitely falls in, yeah.
23:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely falls in line with kind of the research that I was doing.
23:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes sense.
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Historically Catholic theology often used a word obsession to describe what we're believed to be external demonic attacks.
23:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So obsession was actually the first description.
23:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't oppression, which is what I had found, but I didn't realize that later on in the 70s and 80s, New Tears got cut.
23:41
[SPEAKER_01]: who specializes in exorcism, said the term oppression became increasingly prominent during the 1970 and 1980s.
23:51
[SPEAKER_01]: This is actually really interesting because the further they break down the forms of attack.
23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So oppression,
23:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Generally refers to a tax belief to affect the body or a person's external circumstances.
24:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And once again, as we've talked about a many times there, but it knows possession remains the same, demonic control of an individual.
24:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But.
24:16
[SPEAKER_01]: What's interesting is that for thousands of years, even though labels have been moved round, people have reported experiences that still go on today.
24:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Having all these symptoms, physical pain, fear, disturbing dreams, unexplained illness, all the while being convinced something unseen was doing this to them.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: However, in modern times, the lines get blurry fast.
24:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of the experiences described by religious authorities have recognizable counterparts
24:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is exactly, which is exactly my point when it comes to these lines with the oppression obsession, all that stuff.
24:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I think about demonic oppression, which is actually obsession, I think about things like anxiety and truths of thoughts, unexplained sadness, and even feeling like you're being watched.
25:10
[SPEAKER_01]: The sublet little things are the subtle little things that are said to be linked to a demonic presence.
25:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So you look at symptoms like intrusive thoughts.
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And psychology, these are sometimes called unwanted intrusive cognitions.
25:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And when the thoughts conflict with someone's beliefs, values, or since of identity, they're described as ego-distanic.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Essentially, they are thoughts that enter your mind without you conscious, conscious, consciously choosing to have them.
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, experiencing these thoughts doesn't mean you have a psychological disorder or even a demonic attack.
25:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Our brains constantly generate associations, memories, images, and ideas.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of them can come and go.
26:04
[SPEAKER_01]: without us even paying attention, which is a bizarre thought that there are things just burdened through our brain that we're not even really paying attention to.
26:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just constantly turning and burning, you know?
26:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: When you think about it, the amount like we probably don't have any any measurement to the amount of thoughts that we have in a single day.
26:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy to think
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so much that like it's it's one of the best super computers in existence.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're just out here just driving our cars going over.
26:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, zone and out and not remembering the past 30 minutes on the road.
26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is crazy.
26:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's insane.
26:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So now experience in these thoughts doesn't like I said, doesn't mean you have a psychological disorder or demonic attack.
27:00
[SPEAKER_01]: However, sometimes it thought up here is that it's completely inconsistent with who you are.
27:04
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, and it was kind of weird because I've had these thoughts.
27:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not not anything that I think people wanted to admit.
27:13
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, you drive down the highway and suddenly, for whatever reason, you imagine jerking the steering wheel into oncoming traffic.
27:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like this thought is far more common than it actually should be.
27:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you have absolutely no desire to actually do this, and don't intend to act on it, but for whatever reason the thought entered your mind.
27:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe you're standing somewhere quiet and suddenly imagine shouting something completely inappropriate.
27:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Psychological research suggests that unwanted thoughts can become more persistent when we attempt to suppress them.
27:49
[SPEAKER_01]: In more severe cases, intrusive thoughts can become part of obsessive compulsive disorder.
27:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Researchers have identified differences in brain networks involved in emotional regulation, threat processing, and behavioral control among people with OCD.
28:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you place that on someone who's going to church and suddenly have a blast from this thought in their mind, it would cause them to be confused because they don't agree with it or even want that.
28:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Even feeling tremendous guilt about it.
28:23
[SPEAKER_01]: and in psychology persistent religious obsessions can sometimes involve a form of OCD known as screw I can't say that nail it s c r u p u l o s i t y screw pulse script you lost to me something like that it's a lot it's a dumb word it's not a word scientist
28:50
[SPEAKER_01]: me, they're I need to get better at it, but I won't just I'll be on a sidewalk.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the term for for the the feeling of like inadvertently wanting to drive into traffic.
29:04
[SPEAKER_00]: They call it the call of the void.
29:05
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also a French term for it, but I'm not going to try to pronounce it because I'm not from France.
29:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's that's what I was trying to find.
29:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I like I wanted to find known medical conditions and and the
29:20
[SPEAKER_01]: which I'm sure we'll freeze dial at the end, but it's just, it's so, it's so wonky trying to determine what's what.
29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, according to the Cleveland Clinic dot org,
29:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called the Call of the Void.
29:36
[SPEAKER_00]: The Call of the Void describes the sudden unexplained desire to participate in dangerous or self-destructive behaviors, also called the high place phenomenon.
29:44
[SPEAKER_00]: These intrusive thoughts usually involve the idea of jumping or falling from a high place.
29:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Other examples of this involved thoughts of swarving and noncoming traffic, diving off an elevated ramp or cliff, cutting yourself while chopping vegetables or jumping in front of a train or climbing down onto the tracks of a subway platform.
30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so I have heard the phrase called avoid, but when I heard it, it was an association with jumping off a building or something or a bridge, but it is so weird, it's so weird that people have those thoughts.
30:18
[SPEAKER_00]: The high place for all.
30:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be honest.
30:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be honest.
30:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I have one that's similar to what you just described the one about cutting yourself
30:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not that, but I have one.
30:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And it happens almost every single time I do this.
30:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So every time, almost every time I'm mo, I thought, enters my head where it's almost like a suggestion, like you should stick your fingers in the mower deck.
30:52
[SPEAKER_01]: While it's running.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the worst.
30:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I have that thought almost every single time I'm mo.
30:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, don't do that.
30:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course, I would never do that.
31:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I would never do that.
31:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Do it.
31:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't do that.
31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so weird.
31:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so bizarre.
31:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so bizarre and it's so common that they, they actually have like a term for they call the high place when I'm HPP like it's, it's crazy.
31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: The French word is how to butcher it.
31:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called love hell.
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Do Vidi.
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Do Vidi.
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard it.
31:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretty, pretty fancy.
31:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Huh?
31:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Is is pretty Frenchy.
31:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it sits actually in psychological literature and like health, health information and stuff weird weird strange strange so let me see where I'm at now you were getting ready to stick your hand in a mower deck yeah, yeah
31:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, when it comes to these thoughts, even me to a degree, like when I'm like talking about this subject, some people, I think they genuinely think that some of the these thoughts or like could be a form of spiritual temptation or demonic obsession.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: sudden sadness is another one that a lot of us can face on a day-to-day basis, medically and unpleasant emotional state involving sadness on these.
32:29
[SPEAKER_01]: A dissatisfaction can be described as dysphoria.
32:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Once again, it doesn't mean you have a mental disorder.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Plenty of us wake up in a horrible mood for literally no fucking reason.
32:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's it's weird whenever you get hit with those sudden waves of sadness like it's there there doesn't have to be a trigger for it there doesn't have to be a reason like you could be in the middle of having the best day just just doing whatever and then all of a sudden like this just wave of melancholy hits you and you're like you're just like fuck oh dude I have those days like
33:10
[SPEAKER_01]: where, I mean, it doesn't even have to be right when you wake up.
33:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It could just be your, you know, it's one o'clock in the afternoon all of a sudden, like depression, just bitch slaps you.
33:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like a rogue wave, just out of nowhere.
33:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is.
33:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is.
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sucks because like when you got, when you have a trigger for something like that, you can try to avoid it.
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but when you don't, it just comes out of nowhere.
33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just stuck navigate into that point.
33:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it sucks too, because it, it can really just kind of fuck up everything that's going on.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can see how that, how that could become or has become associated with an instrument of something that's benevolent, you know?
34:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:05
[SPEAKER_00]: or and because you're looking for an example or you're looking for a reason you know like why why am I feeling this way why why did this come out of nowhere and if you don't have one your your grasp and it straws at that point or it's it's even you know like your
34:35
[SPEAKER_01]: My wife will do something, and it will fucking throw me over the edge, and it's like, I even in my own mind, and of course I'm not lashing out or anything like that, but I'm boiling inside.
34:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And even in my own mind, I'm like, why the fuck am I so mad about those?
34:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's this is the stupidest thing on the planet to be mad about, there's no reason there's I should not be mad about what just took place.
35:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But for some reason, I am.
35:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, so I'm just, just Dallas and gasoline on it.
35:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so, it's so fucking bizarre.
35:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've told her that too.
35:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, I mean, I'm honest, there are days where I'm, you know, something happens and I get a great insight and I'm like, and I don't know why, because any other day I'd probably laugh at it.
35:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
35:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was just, it's, and those thoughts,
35:31
[SPEAKER_01]: are confusing.
35:32
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're trying to navigate them alone in your own mind, you know, you start, you do kind of start to.
35:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we have outside influence from being part of the show and all the research.
35:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And so like, I have, I've even talked to my wife about it.
35:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm like, sometimes I wonder if I'm not like demonically oppressed sometimes because some of the shit that I go through is fucking ridiculous.
35:57
[SPEAKER_00]: yeah like what's what's feeding the fire what's you know what's yeah taking something so inconsequential and making it so like life-changing at the moment in your brain not in reality but in your brain you're just like what is happening yeah yeah it's it's it's it's fucking crazy
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why that's why I find the idea of the oppression and stuff so interesting because it completely hides and rides the gray line or the gray area where it can literally go either way.
36:39
[SPEAKER_01]: There could be a medical reason for it, there could be a spiritual reason for it, and it's so hard
36:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I find this so fascinating.
36:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's almost a gray area that you cannot make it ungray.
37:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Because like, yeah, you can't like, I don't know, it's hard, it's hard to describe.
37:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't, you can't lean one way or the other.
37:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
37:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'll get in the examples of it later on, too.
37:16
[SPEAKER_01]: That should I never thought about, you know, it never really crossed my mind until it did.
37:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I'm researching and I'm like, fuck, I can't believe I've never thought about it like that.
37:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I've never, I never knew this.
37:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause I thought I, I don't know, sometimes I get weird when I'm researching too.
37:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So it does, it does gotta take us over in its own, in its own room.
37:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's see.
37:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
37:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Once again, it doesn't mean you have, you know, all that stuff can be described as dysphoria.
37:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't necessarily mean you are having a mental disorder, or whatever, demonic, you know, presence.
38:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Feeling unusually discouraged, irritable, emotionally exhausted, or disconnected from things you normally enjoy.
38:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Moot is influenced by complex interactions
38:14
[SPEAKER_01]: neurotransmitter signaling or monoactivity, sleep, stress, and environmental experiences.
38:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Chronic stress can affect the body's hypno-hypno-thalmat with the omega, but to a teri adrenal axis, the big fucking phrase there, which helps regulate the stress response.
38:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Poor sleep can also influence emotionally
38:42
[SPEAKER_01]: making negative feelings more intense or difficult to manage.
38:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Even certain medical conditions, medications, or hormonal changes can shift your mood.
38:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Major depression, which is another one, guilty of.
38:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Major depression involves a broader pattern of symptoms, including depressed mood, or loss of interest, and this will generally last two weeks or more.
39:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, I don't, I typically don't last that long.
39:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I don't qualify for major depression.
39:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Some Catholic exercises describe demonic obsession, and I hope this is where I get into obsession.
39:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Some Catholic exercises describe demonic obsession has involving sudden overwhelming discouragement, hopelessness, or feelings of worthlessness.
39:39
[SPEAKER_01]: on senior Stephen Rosetti has written about what he interprets as demonic influences intensifying ordinary human fears and negative emotions.
39:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Now we'll look at sudden fear, which is a big one in the paranormal world.
39:59
[SPEAKER_01]: One second, all is well for the most part, and then all of a sudden, fear sets in.
40:03
[SPEAKER_01]: You're uneasy, and you convince something is incredibly wrong.
40:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Medically, this can involve acute anxiety or auto-nom-nom-nom-nomec arousal.
40:14
[SPEAKER_01]: The autonomic nervous system regulates many bodily functions that operate without consciousness conscious control, including heart rate, breathing, and aspects of stress response.
40:28
[SPEAKER_01]: then the sympathetic nervous system becomes activated, the body of a pair is to respond to a perceived threat, stress hormones and other chemical signals contribute to physical changes such as increased heart rate, sweating, trembling, and heightened alertness.
40:47
[SPEAKER_01]: All of that can lead into panic attacks,
40:50
[SPEAKER_01]: a sudden surge of intense fear or discomfort.
40:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Alongside chest tightness, dizziness, trembling and feeling and pending catastrophes are on their horizon.
41:03
[SPEAKER_01]: A sudden fear can also have non-psychiatric causes as well.
41:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, on the other side of the coin, when someone approaches a Catholic priest claiming they are experiencing demonic oppression or obsession, even possession for the fact of the matter, the priest will take a different approach to the situation.
41:21
[SPEAKER_01]: They have to consider a much larger set of circumstances surrounding the person's life.
41:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So real quick,
41:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I wrote it down, and I may get to it at some point, but I just want to make clear, because I'm tired of skipping around.
41:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So the idea between possession, obsession, and oppression, possession, we know, oppression from my research that I found, oppression is going to be almost like external physical things.
41:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas obsession is almost like that it's fucking with your mind and your perception.
42:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Your mood.
42:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So those types of situations where I guess like oppression would be objects around your house for getting fucked with things are moving, scratches, bruises, shit like that.
42:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas obsession is going to be your mood drops, your fear, shit like that.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like oppression is kind of almost more external for lack of a better word where obsession is almost more like psychological.
42:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
42:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
42:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
42:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
42:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
42:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just found that because I always viewed oppression as all of the above.
42:54
[SPEAKER_01]: were like it was in my head, it was oppression and possession, you know, oppression being scratches, your moods getting fucked up, all of it, all of that.
43:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't realize that we had cut it into even more, which I like.
43:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I do like it.
43:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also crazy to think that you can be attacked on different levels too, which is terrifying.
43:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sucks.
43:20
[SPEAKER_01]: sucks.
43:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So back to what I was saying.
43:24
[SPEAKER_01]: On the other side of the coin, when someone approaches a Catholic priest, claiming they are experiencing demonic oppression and obsession, even possession, the priest will take a different approach to the situation.
43:34
[SPEAKER_01]: They have to consider a much larger set of circumstances surrounding the person's life.
43:39
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something else I didn't think about in the grand scheme of things.
43:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, someone who begins to experience persistent
43:48
[SPEAKER_01]: be stopped disturbing unwanted and completely inconsistent with the person's ordinary beliefs and personality.
43:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we went over a minute ago, these are recognizable by a medical professional.
44:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Psychologists might investigate whether the person is experiencing ordinary intrusive thoughts, anxiety, obsessive compulsive symptoms, or another psychological condition that examined how frequently the thoughts occur, whether the person feels compelled to respond to them and whether the experience is interfere with every day life.
44:22
[SPEAKER_01]: then depending on those findings, the clinician might identify a condition or a term and that the experiences don't meet the criteria for a psychiatric disorder.
44:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But you pair all of that with other unusual events.
44:38
[SPEAKER_01]: They claim they hear footsteps in their house.
44:42
[SPEAKER_01]: They describe objects appearing in places where they don't remember.
44:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Even report.
44:48
[SPEAKER_01]: waking up with unexplained scratches and bruises.
44:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you have a family member come forward and explain how they have witnessed these events where at least some of them.
44:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the intrusive thoughts haven't changed at all, but the circumstances surrounding the person have become considerably more complicated.
45:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the part of that my brain never really registered.
45:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way I was reading was that, you know, a priest apparently they have to be crazy, straining us with this process.
45:27
[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, they have to, they have to have to go way back in life and determine, you know, were you experiencing, did you, what did you experience you, did you see ghosts, did you hear things, you know?
45:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, you have to completely dissect the entirety of a person's life.
45:47
[SPEAKER_00]: which is fucking crazy, when it comes like Catholic exorcisms, like legit Catholic exorcisms, the process is insane.
45:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I was reading is that it's, and I wrote down some of it, but it is, it's not how in depth they have to go to help them.
46:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And even even at the end of the day, they still have to almost,
46:14
[SPEAKER_01]: They have to use their discretion on the matter, too.
46:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And they can't decide if you're going to go have an exorcism or not.
46:22
[SPEAKER_01]: All they do is then they put it in motion to the diocese and the bishop to get clarification on it happening.
46:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
46:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a long process.
46:39
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, a pre-sinvesting in the situation, my wants to know when the experiences begin, when, you know, whether they occur together and whether there are any witnesses who can end up independently describe what happened.
46:53
[SPEAKER_01]: They may also dig into your religious history, previous spiritual experiences, and whether certain incidents appear connected to religious activities.
47:02
[SPEAKER_01]: The chain in which
47:05
[SPEAKER_01]: to get religious intervention is rather exhausting, more so aimed at getting the exorcism though.
47:11
[SPEAKER_01]: If everything keeps leading to supernatural, the priest would access the situation because oppression slash obsession might just take the person down the road of getting things like pastoral counseling, ordinary prayers or even spiritual guidance.
47:29
[SPEAKER_01]: If the situation is bad enough, then it gets pushed up to change.
47:32
[SPEAKER_01]: The priest needs authorization from the die-seen bishop to perform a major exorcism.
47:42
[SPEAKER_01]: The church also requires careful discernment before that even happens.
47:47
[SPEAKER_01]: some of the interesting checklists for exorcism are as follows, which I found that these are kind of like, I feel like these are extremely common tropes in possession.
48:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of them is can you speak or understand languages that you've never heard before, which I mean, you know, I mean, that's like, that's a given.
48:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You just did earlier.
48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm no, I'm, I'm, yeah, I know.
48:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much you understood it, but you definitely spoke.
48:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I can speak ancient small in.
48:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And with perfect dialect.
48:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
48:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing.
48:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Another one, it's extremely common, the possession of extraordinary strength that would appear in consistent with the individual's age or condition.
48:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Also in this field, Lion's can get cross as well.
48:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It is fully possible to have someone experiencing overall anxiety, but also have demonic oppression or obsession.
48:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So say someone thinks or is experiencing demonic oppression, they go see a priest and the priest helps them through it.
49:06
[SPEAKER_01]: After some time, the intrusive thoughts disappear,
49:12
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're able to step outside yourself for a second, that outcome is no different than someone who was going through large bouts of anxiety.
49:21
[SPEAKER_01]: They hear what they wanted and started to actually believe prayer was working, therefore, their anxiety is gone.
49:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the anxiety was self-induced in the first place.
49:34
[SPEAKER_01]: In 2018, researchers, Nicholas Hopson and his colleagues published a review examining
49:43
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that explored was how ritualized behavior can influence anxiety, emotional regulation, and a person's sense of control.
49:52
[SPEAKER_01]: The study isn't just confined to religious ceremonies either, because rituals exist in everyday life, like an athlete performing a particular routine before their competitions.
50:03
[SPEAKER_01]: people often find comfort and repeated structured activities.
50:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So researchers examine what happens in the brain when people perform a ritual before completing a task.
50:14
[SPEAKER_01]: They measured something called the error-related negativity or ERN.
50:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It is an electrical signal associated with the brain's response to making mistakes.
50:26
[SPEAKER_01]: After participants performed a ritual, researcher, a researcher's observed a reduction in that neural response.
50:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't establish if people actually performed better.
50:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It simply suggested that ritualized behavior can influence how the brain responds to certain stressful or uncertain situations.
50:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, of course, I'm not sitting here and saying that prayer isn't real, that it, you know, and I know some people are probably thinking that because a lot of this has been science-based.
50:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But like I said earlier, I just find these gray areas extremely fascinating where the possibility
51:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It leaves rooms for tons of discussion and possibilities, despite examining things like the placebo effect that's another one you could throw in here and a person's expectations of a ritual or prayer.
51:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I know factually that prayer is real.
51:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I know something larger than us is watching over us.
51:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually wanted to know more about oppression and obsession to establish if it's something that's even I have gone through or are going through.
51:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I have my own personal experiences that it's a very extreme least show me that there is without a doubt something larger than us and that it's listening and willing to help.
51:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is one of those topics that the more information you have and the more that you can share.
51:54
[SPEAKER_01]: but help someone out there get past something in their life.
51:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Regardless, if it's just a slump, or real attacks from a demon or a demon or evil spirit.
52:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, I just find this topic fascinating because there's so many gray areas.
52:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because the examples could go back and forth across the board, and it's hard to
52:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Because even with the priest's examining your entire history, all that could be subjective too.
52:34
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no rooted like this is 100% factual demon doing this.
52:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
52:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
52:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting that you, like, because I didn't have any idea what you were right on today, that you chose this topic because just either last night or night before, I'm constantly watching YouTube.
52:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I come across this list of the creepiest videos, y'all, y'all, y'all, y'all, y'all.
53:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It links to this guy who, as we know, a lot of,
53:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Supposed infestation and possession and oppression is often written off as someone with schizophrenia for that all the time.
53:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But this guy is a diagnosed schizophrenic.
53:34
[SPEAKER_00]: He has auditory hallucinations, he has visual hallucinations, and he's working through that, and in working through that, he is documenting it on his YouTube channel.
53:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Heather has a bunch of videos, and
53:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It shows like the things he does to work through them whenever he's having a visual hallucination.
53:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It says a lot of times it's the same.
53:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a man in a doorway.
54:01
[SPEAKER_00]: He's wearing blue and he's like, and one of my,
54:07
[SPEAKER_00]: He had a word for it, but I can't remember one of the things that kind of takes takes me out of it.
54:11
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I have to have some sort of repetition.
54:13
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, if I can open the door and shut it.
54:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Open the door and shut it.
54:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Eventually, the hallucination will go away.
54:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It looks like OCD thing.
54:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of.
54:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
54:23
[SPEAKER_00]: He says it can make it go away.
54:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But the reason he started documenting it is because he bought himself a GoPro.
54:31
[SPEAKER_00]: This also helps him because if he has a visual hallucination, he's seeing and then he looks through his GoPro and it's not there.
54:39
[SPEAKER_00]: As he does that, it kind of brings him down, you know.
54:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, the first video is him and he's having, he's having like an anxiety attack.
54:48
[SPEAKER_00]: There are two paramedics there and he's like there's a man in my doorway.
54:53
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I know, if you guys can't see him, can you shut the door?
54:57
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, the repetition will help me understand that it's not real.
55:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And before the parametric gets over there, a clock on the bat on the other side of the wall falls.
55:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Just drops and he's like, I know you guys saw that and they're like, yeah, but they kind of just brush it off.
55:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, they're he's got a bunch of videos of him talking to the auditory hallucinations.
55:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously you don't hear anything, but there's one particular video where as he's standing there, he's sitting in his kitchen and the door that looks like it leads to a laundry room instead of having a door on it, he just got a bunch of like pieces of cloth to drape down
55:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
55:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And as he's looking at it, one of one piece, one strand of the cloth is clearly pulled out and then put back and then pulled out and put back and pulled out and put back and he's in his brain is like chills.
55:54
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like holy shit.
55:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm having a hallucination.
55:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So he steps inside his pantry and he starts shutting his door and open it to try to get it to stop.
56:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And as he's doing that, every other strand except the one that was moving lifts itself up backwards into the laundry room and is held there and then is set back down.
56:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, in my brain, I thought this was a hallucination until I went back and reviewed my GoPro footage and it really happened.
56:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
56:28
[SPEAKER_01]: See, I took it as.
56:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever's in the house is mocking him by the whole like pulling it set it pull because it's almost like his ritual yeah, I didn't think about that but yeah, but it just it it's almost like
56:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It just kind of goes to show the gray area.
56:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like these things can latch onto this, especially after like he's been diagnosed.
56:54
[SPEAKER_00]: He knows he has schizophrenia, but now it's almost like this also knows.
56:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's like anything you're gonna tell them, they're gonna ride off as you be in schizophrenia.
57:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So now I can do whatever I want.
57:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And especially now that you said it, it's almost mocking his rituals to bring himself down
57:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, be it as, you know, it's mocking his ritual or or it's in that moment, it's proving to him that it's not hallucination.
57:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, it knows that he has these auditory hallucinations and
57:38
[SPEAKER_01]: be it.
57:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It's mocking him or it's just going is doing something to where he's trying to he's going to try to close his door, but it's still doing it and he's going to be like, oh shit.
57:48
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't going away.
57:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, that's not hallucination.
57:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fucking real.
57:54
[SPEAKER_00]: When you said that, it made me think, what if it's something on the other side of the veil, then also thinks it's having hallucinations of him could be trying to put itself out of it.
58:03
[SPEAKER_00]: If I wish I could remember what his channel was, if I go back and find it, I'll send it to you because when all of those pieces of cloth lift up backwards.
58:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Fuck that.
58:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like,
58:13
[SPEAKER_00]: What is happening because it's not like it's a paranormal channel.
58:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just him document it and and there's those two videos out of how many dozens and dozens and dozens of other videos.
58:23
[SPEAKER_00]: He's he's made That that things are like off, which like you said the gray areas so weird to where it's almost the question and you don't How many people have been misdiagnosed.
58:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you hear because you know that like scientifically
58:43
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of things in the world that we just come up with a best guess.
58:50
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know factually that this happens and that happens.
58:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We literally just come up with a best guess.
58:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And oh yeah, you know, it's probably this.
58:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't really fully understand and we're still investigating it, but, you know, is probably this, is probably what it is.
59:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I forgot.
59:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I forgot the like the like icing on the cake was that he lived in a different apartment with his girlfriend and one day that it wasn't his GoPro cam, they just had like a camera installed in their house and she's walking into the bedroom and she screams bloody murder and
59:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So he jumps up and he's like, what's wrong?
59:29
[SPEAKER_00]: What's wrong?
59:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, I just saw a man in blue in the bed.
59:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Fuck that.
59:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's crazy.
59:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.
59:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of the man in blue.
59:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Me either.
59:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll go back through my YouTube history if I find it all sent it to you because I'm like, What the fuck?
59:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fucking creepy.
59:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is weird that you decided to do this episode.
59:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It is weird.
59:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It is weird, but it's great timing.
59:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Because now I feel like for him, if something currently latched on to him, it could make his situation so much worse.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And because it now like doubt fit, because now he's going to start a question, or at least I would.
1:00:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, how much of what I've been seeing is fake and how much is real now because if she just saw the man in blue and that's something my routine has actively gotten rid of what the fuck and how much things, how how many experiences did he have that word legit that he wrote off as a hallucination, but for he started using his GoPro to record his rituals.
1:00:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
1:00:48
[SPEAKER_00]: it sucks.
1:00:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's why that's why this is why.
1:00:55
[SPEAKER_01]: This taught like these these ones really fascinating because they're the gray areas so wide and there's just so much room for possibility and confusion and I don't know it just makes my brain turn and I think that's why I like it so much.
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And because it's not one we can figure out
1:01:15
[SPEAKER_00]: can't help but feel bad for him because when that's going on in the kitchen when he steps into like the cupboard and he's shutting the door you can tell he's trying he is trying to get whatever's going to disappear and then that whole thing just lifts up like I would bolted out of
1:01:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But like for them, for whatever that aspect of the phenomenon is to to almost lock in and manipulate like his schizophrenia is so like that's next level.
1:01:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's valuable.
1:01:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Terrible.
1:01:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:02:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not crazy.
1:02:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It is odd timing though.
1:02:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And it has happened to us all the time.
1:02:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, no, it's just weird.
1:02:08
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just, we're just synchronicities as the hell you're crew.
1:02:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fucking weird, man.
1:02:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's strange, yeah, go ahead.
1:02:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way that it came about was I was just proves and read it.
1:02:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, what's some paranormal evidence that can convince, like, what's the most convincing paranormal evidence?
1:02:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And someone just happened to mention that.
1:02:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like a top five scariest videos.
1:02:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, go to this spot where the guy is a diagnose gets a frenic.
1:02:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's
1:02:42
[SPEAKER_00]: video taping his rituals and stuff and then he catches actual evidence of things happening in his apartment.
1:02:49
[SPEAKER_00]: That sucks.
1:02:50
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
1:02:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like, and I feel bad.
1:02:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I can, I can, I can see in my mind I him like panic closing that door like please work please work please work please work.
1:03:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And like because inside he's just fucking terrified.
1:03:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because like there's some videos of him actually like having a one-sided conversation with his audit is auditory hallucinations.
1:03:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he's talking he's like, why are you bringing that up right now?
1:03:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's it's to nothing.
1:03:16
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like you always bring this up at the worst times and it's just him like recording his experiences and then just there's just those two incidences.
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_00]: that like almost it it makes you question if what he's seeing is actually hallucination there's really some bullshit going on yeah that sucks yeah sucks that they like sucks that they lock in and criminipulate you yeah it's it's so and and on such a personal level
1:03:56
[SPEAKER_00]: sucks.
1:03:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's fucking creepy.
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It's terrible.
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
1:04:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's that's basically what I had for the episode.
1:04:05
[SPEAKER_01]: For the time that I was allotted.
1:04:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely good things to do.
1:04:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Good thing.
1:04:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really enjoy these types of conversations and just
1:04:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And also I have a new appreciation for kind of like looking at the medical side of it and what these, you know, like you said, schizophrenia and depression and all this stuff, because those are those are tier one symptoms of being influenced as well.
1:04:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so it's a confusing road to walk down.
1:04:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't envy anyone trying to walk that line.
1:04:49
[SPEAKER_01]: having to question everything and then also having to question questioning everything has got to be just yeah like uh your own personal hell at that point yeah and it brought us full circle back to you in the first story I brought up where James even said that he was uncertain like he he wasn't sure if he was a psychological thing or a demonic thing or whatever like he had no he was questioning it just like any of us
1:05:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly what Wyatt connected in my brain when you were talking about the first one.
1:05:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, holy shit.
1:05:21
[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly what Dude was going through on the YouTube channel.
1:05:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:05:27
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:05:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Why?
1:05:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh.
1:05:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what we got.
1:05:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So thanks for hanging out with us on this Monday.
1:05:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure to check out an all-social share this show everywhere, globally, universally, intergalactically, interdimensionally, send it out there, and hope everybody has a good week.
1:05:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Till we meet again, stay safe, stay weird, and oh man, if you got weird stuff going on.
1:06:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's best to document it and question it at the same time.
1:06:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, get yourself a little evidence behind what you got going on.