Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #795 Can Online Predators Really Find Out Where Your Child Lives?

Transcript

#795 Can Online Predators Really Find Out Where Your Child Lives? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers me.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, Well, we've been talking a lot about parental Guidance
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: on the Happy Families Podcast. I so very much wish
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: that Kylie could be with me for this conversation because
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: she wanted so badly to hear what I'm going to
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: talk to Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling about from the Australian
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Center to Counter Child Exploitation otherwise known as ACE. If
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: you missed it, here's the background on Parental Guidance Season two,
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Episode one. The kids are given a device and told
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: they can go and play a game for an hour.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: While they're playing the game, somebody approaches them in the
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: game with a really innocuous, easy to enjoy name like
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Pizza and says, hey, should we play, and then tries
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: to get information from them.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: You're online name is Pizza and you're trying to establish
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: a relationship with funny animal. Maybe start by introducing your
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: alf of.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Her name's really, she says to her name's Pepper.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: That's information she shouldn't be giving out.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: She's taught me I so bit already.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Ask if she knows the local shopping center. She says,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: she does, Okay, keep building the relationship. See if she'd
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: like to meet you at the shopping center.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, she said yes.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: This was all done with the help of ACE, the
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Australian Senator account of Child Exploitation. And you will remember
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: if you watch the show, Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling walked
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: into the room. Everybody sat up straight and knew that
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: they need to listen because the Australian Federal Police were
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: in the room to talk about kids using their devices.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: It was a really powerful, maybe one of the most
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: powerful parts of parental guidance. And that same wonderful Detective
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Superintendent Jane Crossing from ACE joins me right now to
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: talk about how it all came about. So, Jane, if
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: we were to dive straight into just where did the
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: idea come from? Did you approach the show, did the
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: show approach you? How did this happen?
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: The show actually approached us. And I really have to
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: credit the producers and their line of thinking. So from
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: season one, the Stranger Danger episode that you featured around
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: the park and the dog right and how powerful that was.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: And I have actually seen that episode myself. Stranger Danger
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: messaging has been around for you know, twenty plus years
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: for young people, and even with that, these children still,
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: unfortunately were manipulated. So to the producer's credit, they said, well,
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: if that's happening still in the real world, what's happening online?
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: So it was actually the producers, through our media unit
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: that approached us.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, so they've come to you and said, we've got
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: this idea, can we do this online? How did you
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: come up with the idea that you were going to
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: create an avatar and have somebody approach the kids?
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Where did this idea develop from?
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: That is all credit to the Covert Operatives that you
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: get to see a glimpse of one in the episode,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: plus a whole team behind all of that. So they
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: were very much responsible in conjunction with the producers to
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: come up with those particular scenarios, and you can see
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: from having watched the actual episode just how incredibly impactful
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: they were.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Amazing. I'd love to know a lot of people have
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: asked me this question and I've fumbled my way through
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: an answer. I'm guessing it has something to do with
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: the word covert. You said, covert operatives. Is there a
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: reason that we could we can't know who the police
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: officers are. Is there a reason that we had to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: have an actor being instructed by the officer rather than
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: the officer engaging with the children themselves.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: This is just best practice to keep the identity of
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: covert operatives who work in any crime type, because of course,
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: we use covert techniques across a range of different crime
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: types to locate evidence, to identify by offenders, and hopefully
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: locate and rescue victims globally in this particular crime type.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: So that's just a very much of protective measure that
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: we don't want them to have their real world life
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: impacted by their online activities that they do professionally, and we,
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: like most law enforcementations is around the world, implement best
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: practice when it comes to operational security and the personal
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: security of the operative themselves. So I think, based on
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: the particular operative that you see in the episode, she
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: felt much more comfortable with having someone action her requests
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: rather than do it herself because she realized, even though
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: it was in an entirely simulated environment, it is pretty
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: impactful to be yourself manipulating children in that way.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Now do you say that it's actually made my heart
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: kind of palpitate and cringe a little bit like that.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I can imagine they're dealing with people who actually do this,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: and now they're stepping into that role. That would that
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: would be terrifying.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think from time to time they do
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: need to pretend that they are actually engaged in this
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: type of criminality. But I think for a self preservation
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: action by getting an actor to do it, and we
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: hope for the actor's sake that it's not too traumatizing
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: for him to have been part of such a thing.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: That hopefully he can see how important the outcome is
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: and that it's really been a highly educated episode I
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: think for everybody.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: For those who haven't seen it, it is still available
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: on nine now and it will be for some time.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: I can't recommend watching it enough, Jane. When the operative
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: instructed the actor to approach the children one by one
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: as they participated in these activities, we saw some kids
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: refuse to engage. They didn't really play the game at all.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: We saw others engage, but they lied to the actor
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: and did great job of keeping themselves safe. But we
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: saw two families where the kids gave away the farm.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: I mean they just told the actor everything, and one
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: of them even wanted to meet up. Were you surprised
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: when you watched this happen with these families and these
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: children to get this outcome.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Look, I know from the reports that we get here
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: at ACE, I know that it can happen very quickly.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: But the fact that in a simulated environment that kids,
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: and as you say, two of them in particular, reacted
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: the way that they did and responded so incredibly rapidly
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: to the questions that the actor was asking, yeah, really
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: really troubling. And it just sort of shows that we've
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: got a bit more work to do, not only is
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: a law enforcement agency, but as a whole community.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Jane, let's talk about the situations as they occurred. We
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: had one family, the Lighthouse family, whose child wanted to
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: go and meet up at the local shopping center and
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: then she walked out of the room and told her parents,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: and they obviously were able to have a really important
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: conversation about it. When you look at that scenario and
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: you compare it to Cat, the honest parent, her daughter
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: lied about what was going on in the chat and
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: completely covered it all up. Cat had no idea until
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: it was shown to her in the room. When you
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: watch that as a person working in the environment in
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: which you work, what advice do you have for parents
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: around number one, minimizing the information disclosure obviously that's critical,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: but number two, making sure that the relationship is open
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: enough that the kids will tell you as happened with
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: the Lighthouse family, as opposed to Kat, the honest parent
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: not knowing, I mean, this could have ended in literal,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: legitimate tragedy.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so very very different outcomes for those two different scenarios.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: So in the Lighthouse family, the sort of very upfront
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: that this is happened. That's fine, But we certainly had
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: concerns and I raised that in the episode, that they
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: assumed that because their daughter doesn't have access to games
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: in the household environment, that she's safe in the whole universe.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: And I think for them that was a real wake
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: up call. They cared and they were very concerned, but
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: they just hadn't necessarily got around to having that conversation yet.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: So that was certainly an opportunity for the Lighthouse family
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: after that, and there are other children of course in
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: the household as well, that they can extend those learnings
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: out to the situation with Kat and her household. I
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: think I can see why it impacted Kat as much
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: as it did, simply because they had had conversations before
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: about sharing information. So I think Kat was probably more
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: in tune with the fact that there are risks out
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: there and the fact that not only did Bill respond
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: far too well to the grooming process. Yes, there was
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: that element of lying, but as I say in the episode,
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: I wonder if part of it is because when Cats
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: come back in the room after Billy's time is up,
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: and she's got a very heightened sense of being very inquiring,
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: I suppose, and saying what did you do and what
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: is this? And I think Billy felt a little bit
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: on the back foot and that she needed to explain
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: her behavior and minimize her behavior. And it just shows
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: that even in a household where there's been open conversations
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: and Cat's writing characterizing herself as an honest parent, it
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean there's any failing. It just shows that you
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: have to have these incredibly regular conversations. It's just such
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: an unfortunate situation with the ever evolving nature of the
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: way that kids interact with device. It's not as if
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: you can have a set and forget kind of conversation.
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: It has to be a continual conversation as the technology
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: and the risks both evolve.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: This advice feels so important. What kind of feedback have
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: you had at ACE in relation to the show? And
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: I don't just mean from other officers who are working
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: with you, but even from the community. Have you had
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: a sense of how the show has been received in
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: the community.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: I absolutely have. I have to say that it's been
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: incredibly and overwhelmingly positive. I have had people reach out
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: to me from high school to say that they saw it.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: I've had peers and people in child protection reach out
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: to say, you know, what a good job that we
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: And it's certainly not just me, it's definitely the COVID
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: unit as well, and how well of we worked with
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: the producers to get it where it was and yourself
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: and Ali. So that's been incredibly positive. I've had NGOs
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: and other stakeholders send me emails saying that they that
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: they tuned in and that they thought it was done very,
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: very well and that it was very impactful. But in
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: terms of really tangible action based outcomes, we've had a
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: massive surge in people visiting the think you Know website.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: We've had a surge in schools and groups actually committing
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: right through to booking in a presentation. So this means
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: a face to face presentation in predominantly school environments, but
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: not exclusively where we actually come in using our volunteer
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: model and give a face to face presentation. So for us,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: the bookings have gone through the roof, which is exactly
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: what the model is designed to be. We're based all
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: around in Australia. We're looking to onboard even more volunteers
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: off the back of it who were interested in the program. So,
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: you know, for us, it's been such an incredible positive
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: impact on think you Know and the awareness of it.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: So we're incredibly grateful for that and I think it'll
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: have ripple effects for some time.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to hear you say that we will
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: link to think you Know in our show notes, and
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: even hearing you talk about how you've had people say
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: we want to book presentations to teach this stuff. I'm
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: sure that a lot of people who will listen to
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: the podcast right now who are in education maybe didn't
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: even know that that was available, and so we were
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: linked to that in the show notes as well. For you,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Jane feedback that I've had has been continual, and essentially
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: the feedback has been We've talked to the kids about
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: this lot, but it wasn't until they saw it happen
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: that they realized how serious it is and how easy
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: it is. And I wonder if there's anything that you
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: would react to in that response from parents around just
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: the vision just watching someone have the experience and how
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: real that made it.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So, look, we've been saying for such a long time,
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: and we have, you know, some really basic safety tips,
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: and one of them is the need for parental supervision.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: So we will continue to talk about that. But the
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: other thing that we talk about a lot is that
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: it's actually not a child's role to keep themselves safe,
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: so parents and adults in a young person's life have
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: to also step up, and that means educating themselves. So
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: I think hopefully the kids are more awarebatically if they
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: took the opportunity to watch this show with their family,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: and I think that I've seen some of the commentary
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: on social media suggesting that that did happen, and I
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: think that sounds really positive. But also I hope parents
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: realize that if they perhaps have been passive or even
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: bearing their head in their sand, which we know that
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: can happen as well, because technology can at times be
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: incredibly daunting and overwhelming. We hope that some parents have realized, actually, no,
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: you've got a really critical role in this. You can't
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: bury a head in the sand. Technology is not going away.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: You need to find ways to engage with your young
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: person and start what might be a very uncomfortable conversation.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: And you know, the parent, We're going to have all
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: sorts of uncomfortable conversations. It's not just going to be
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: on technology.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, welcome to parenting.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. So if that's the case, and
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: if you acknowledge your role in all of that, we've
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: got loads of resources so the thinking. Our website has
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: so many resources on how to actually start that conversation.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: And it's never ever too late. So don't imagine you
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: have to get in at the ground level, though getting
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: into the ground level is ideal, we would say. And
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: that's another question we often get, is like how early
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: is too early? Well, it's actually not early. As soon
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: as they've got access to a device that can connect
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: with the internet, that's it. That's all we say. Or
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: that you know they're going into an environment where they're
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: going to have access, and particularly the risk of access
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: without that parental supervision. So we've had an opportunity to
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: really reinforce that message that the parents have such a
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: key role and that's a real struggle for some parents
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: to get their head around when they're very, very busy.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: We absolutely understand that, and I can understand the frustration
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: that parents must have saying, you mean and we bother
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: to sit down with them and do this and it
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: say actually.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I reckon. Just watching the show though, is
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: all you need to get that conversation going. I think
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: that we've probably started a couple of hundred thousand conversations
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: around the country just as a result of that episode.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: So great work, Love talking to you, and so so
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: very much appreciate that you've taken the time to just
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: do a bit of a I guess a review of
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: what happened in episode one. Thank you, Jane, Thank you.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: It's Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Senate Accounter
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Child Exploitation or ACE or link to them in the
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: show notes, you can google them. Make sure that you're
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: having this conversation. It just matters so so much. For
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: more about making your family happier, don't just visit Ace,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: visit happy families dot com, dot you, or the Doctor
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Justin Colson's Happy Family's Facebook page for more