Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #234: Glyphosate Immunity: Lisa Stokke Breaks Her Silence on What’s Really Happening in DC

Transcript

Episode #234: Glyphosate Immunity: Lisa Stokke Breaks Her Silence on What’s Really Happening in DC · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Why did Kennedy have to endorse this?
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: The Maha movement was having a lot more impact than what they were comfortable with.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's no coincidences, right, in DC.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit surreal, but also like an abandonment.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Anything except that this is necessary.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: In order to play these games, there is an element of blackmail.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Cena McCullough, and I'm here with our favorite regenerative farmer, Joel Salatin.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Joel, you like how I labeled you there?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was a little bit new.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're becoming more and more creative, Lisa.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm trying to box you in with the label.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, today we want to talk about something that has really caused a lot of outrage.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: On February 18th of this year, President Trump signed an executive order, and it's titled Promoting the National Defense by Ensuring an Adequate Supply of Elemental Phosphorus and Glyphosate-based herbicides.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: This order effectively shifts the classification of glyphosate from a purely agricultural tool to a matter of national security.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it may, in fact, give glyphosate immunity.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: So to help us navigate this situation, figure out what's going on here, we've actually invited a very special guest onto the program, which you know is rare.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So she's got to be amazing.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Her name is Lisa Stokey.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: She's the co-founder of Food Democracy Now.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: She spearheaded initiatives related to GMO labeling, food safety rules, small family farm protections, policies on pesticides and GMOs, glyphosate in the food and water, also lawsuits against Monsanto, challenging their patents.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: She's worked with the Farm Bill, antitrust issues, among many other things.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: She was heavily involved also in politics, especially during presidential caucuses.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: She worked towards influencing presidential candidates to adopt policies that benefited rural Americans and family farms, growing food for their communities and our environment.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then she pivoted to working towards what she says the solutions related to nutrition by co-founding the Bionutrient Institute, where she studied nutrient density in food crops.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Recently, she actually served on a transition committee for RFK Jr.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: That was during the presidential election.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And she served to recommend the top positions for the USDA, including the Secretary of AG, and recently has reconnected with Joel and myself.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the program, Lisa.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: We're thrilled to have you here.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that beautiful introduction, Cena.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, Cena and I uh don't have very many um, you know, political wonks on the program.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So for our listeners, this is a rare treat to uh a rare treat to bring on somebody that's that's embedded that deeply and has been embedded in these policy issues and um and to be able to get a look behind the curtain of some of these um policy issues.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um Lisa and I uh just in disclosure, Lisa and I have had many discussions um as as the whole Trump RFK Jr.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: campaign was going and the transition team and all that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um she is uh she's one of the good ones.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're just so glad to have you on, Lisa.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for giving us uh a little bit of your time.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, thank you both.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's this is really just a treat for me.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I've enjoyed my conversations with both of you immensely.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they just seem to expand and expand and expand and um really build that you know enthusiasm and momentum, you know, toward, you know, what really truly are the solutions for us, um, you know, in achieving like you know, true health and you know, great communities, you know, if you will, as this as the solution.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, I've I've I've been, you know, my work has been called like tip of the spear, you know, back in the day, and even tip of the bleeding spear.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So some people have corrected that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and as you mentioned, I sort of pivoted from that, and that was in um, you know, the end of 2017 is when I pivoted, and I did kind of my last campaign in that regard through another organization that I founded on my own called Next Seven Project.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that was where I did a lot of that work on um nutrient density.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: But before I did that, I kind of ran my last campaign and um I called it Protect Organic.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I did that with a lot of the foundational organic farmers in the US, meaning like some of the you know, originators, if you will, of or of organic agriculture in the United States.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we were trying to protect the organic standards um from allowing hydroponics.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we lost.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, even though the you know, AFPA, the Organic Food Production Act, specifically states that organic is about improving soil, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And of course there was lawsuits and whatever, but I'm mentioning that because that was kind of the pivotal moment for me, if you will, um, where it certainly wasn't the first time that I had suspected, you know, that you know, we weren't gonna like make a ton of traction, you know, in DC and all of that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: But for me personally, it was kind of that moment where um I realized that even though the work we did did create some change and certainly raised awareness, you know, and things like glyphosate and GMOs and so on and so forth, that I really wanted to spend my energy in bringing people's attention to, you know, what they could personally do, as opposed to going, you know, hat in hand, if you will, petitioning a system that I feel is, you know, not only broken, it's just kind of like doing as it's intended, I think, now, right?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Which is to, you know, control that conversation and those policies and kind of keep us where we are and playing whack-a-mole, you know.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that was when I pivoted.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to go into more detail, if you will, about this whack-a-mole scenario because I think that you have a very unique position that in perspective that most of us are not privy to because most of us haven't been on the inside like you have, you know, and you've been there for how many years?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: You've been there trying to push policies and protect our food and our soil and our health and our children.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: And and you've you literally were there like in the lion's den, and then you pivoted.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: And when this um, when this executive order came out, I saw all the outrage from people.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people like um O'Rierson, you know, the glyphosate girl who's a friend of the program, saying, quote, the president is making a mockery of the very voters who put his administration into office.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: You've got the Center for Food Safety Director George Kimbrell coming out uh against this and saying that um they're attempting to influence the Supreme Court and get glyphosate makers and other pesticide behemoths immunity.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the the EEWG environmental working group president and co-founder um Ken Cook came out um really against them and saying um that if anyone still wondered whether Make America Healthy Again was a genuine commitment to protecting public health or a stam concocted by President Trump and RFK Jr.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: to rally health conscious voters in 2024, today's decision answers that question.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: You've got the food babe outrage, like they're they're calling it a betrayal.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Joel and I have never relied on the government, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: If correct me if I'm wrong, Joel.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I am, but we have for decades said the the government is not gonna fix this, industry is not gonna fix this.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: We the people have the power to fix this ourselves.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: So when I'm seeing all this outrage, part of me felt sad for these people that they're experiencing this.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the bubbles burst for them.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Part of me felt um in this might sound a little weird, but a little bit excited because the bubble has burst for so many people and they're seeing, oh, wait, I've got to take matters into my own hand, and we can do this.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: We can do this together as a collective community.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So can you maybe start with like whatever you feel comfortable sharing in terms of interactions that you've had, things that you've witnessed that led you to that turning point where you decided, you know what, the government's not the solution.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna shift my focus and my energy.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, there's a lot to unpack there.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um see Cena Cena's not known for uh for simplistic questions.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, right.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um well yeah, and Cena does know like a lot of my, you know, my very um kind of intimate experiences, I guess, intimate because I don't I don't share a lot of them publicly because mainly because it's not really ever my goal to pinpoint, you know, one person or this organization or this or that, right?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I have had the opportunity to see how, you know, specific people, like all those people you named, I've you know, I know personally, right?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I've worked with.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you kind of get the opportunity to see, you know, where people fall, you know, when you're you know, you're in these meetings and conversations and and so on and so forth, right?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's just kind of like at these levels with big ag it's it's it's relic it's a relatively small group of people, you know what I mean, that are the most the most vocal.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll I guess I'll say that.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, as far as I mean in in in in big in big ag or in um in anti-big ag small small group.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: In both.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: In both, yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So so so just just a few people actually dominate the conversation.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: When you boil it all down, it's very, very few people.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: From my perspective, it is, yes.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess this is where I feel like the opportunities are, and the audience that I really wish to, I guess, influence, if you will, or speak to, is you know, I think about I kind of think about my former self, right?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: The the the single mom in Iowa, you know, driving two hours um to the co-op to get organic food, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's I think the the the eaters, if you will, are the people that that matter the most.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're the ones that kind of get left behind in these conversations, you know.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And because when it, you know, when it comes right down to it, it's all about our food, and that's something we do daily, right?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, decisions that we have to make every day.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so they have to be relatively easy decisions, you know.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: We can't be, you know, reading all of these papers, and as I used to say, have a I used to say, well, I guess I still say it, but you know, a PhD in organic, you know, I used to say people shouldn't have to have a PhD in organic or whatever you want to say now, regenerative or nutrient-dense or however you want to term it, to know, you know, how to best feed themselves and their families, you know, it it should be much more simple.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so that kind of thinking, you know, and then doing all of that work politically, um, you know, has led me to the conclusion that as long as our food system is globalized or even nationalized, we're always gonna have, you know, massive trade-offs.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's just no, there's no way around it.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way to, you know, um, you know, square that circle, if you will.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's always either going to be pollution or there's gonna be low nutrition, or there's gonna be, you know, due to damage to the soil, due to overspray of chemicals.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you name it.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's processing food, there's tons of that, right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime you have a a large industrialized food system, and that's what all of this is about, is that we're always that's the whack-a-mole thing, right?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're always trying to correct these problems in a system that simply can't be corrected, if you will.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's inherent in a large system like that, in my view.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and and culturally, um, Lisa, it's it's almost a axiomatic in the culture that without these massive chemically industrial places from production to processing to distribution, uh, we'll all starve.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I deal with that all the time that many, many small farmers can never uh compete with uh a few large um outfits uh in in just in s just in feeding, you know, feeding the uh people.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And yet nature is fundamentally about duplication, not consolidation.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: If nature wants an wants more uh more acorns, it doesn't make a great big oak tree, it plants more oak trees.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: If nature wants more milk, it doesn't make a great big cow, it uh births some calves, you know, that can become milk cows.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So duplication uh is nature's scale um modus operandi, yeah, not consolidation.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And yet our entire Western reductionist linear compartmentalized uh uh thinking is all about scale, the answer to scale is consolidation.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's so well said, Joel.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I have felt for a long time that I think fundamentally people sort of don't um internalize, if you will, the abundance of nature.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: I I will often say, how many green peppers are in a green pepper?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's I mean it's it's infinite, yeah, right?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't I don't think we really process that, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we really and we sort of have become, you know, like the grocery store, of course, has become the middleman, right?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: But once you kind of know what's going on there, um, which I I I have to say I have for a really long time, this time of year, I just honestly I don't even want to eat, you know, it's February.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in Iowa right now.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there I'm like, I wish I didn't have to eat.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not in any way inspired, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I get so inspired by the locally grown food and my food in my garden and so on and so forth, right?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we're really depriving ourselves of that by being consumers, you know, versus stewards and eaters, right?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Being a steward and an eater is like fulfilling in unimaginable ways that a lot of people just really don't even access in their lifetime.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really sad, you know, the more generations that come along.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my grandparents were farmers and they did it the old-fashioned way, if you will.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: But that was right as this consolidation model was ramping up, and they they struggled, like they really struggled financially to make it work.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then I on the other side of my family, it's kind of like a I tell people it's kind of like, you know, if you know the book, uh Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for me, it was like rich farmer for poor farmer that I grew up with.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the other side of my family, I had um an uncle um who, you know, they did that model of, you know, the you know, get bigger, get out, the Earl Butt's model, right?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they had the big combines, and I watched them tear down the old farmhouse and build a big fancy one and so on and so forth, you know.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I really got to see the impact of those policies in real time in Iowa.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that was my childhood.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I would spend time at both farms.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, when people say, you know, this whole thing of what you're talking about of like, we'll starve.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's not because that the earth isn't abundant and because we can't, you know, feed ourselves wonderful food, it's that these policies, right, have have benefited the other side and really unfairly skewed it against farmers, against eaters, against, you know, the planet, and I I say future generations too.
• 17:28
  unknown: Yes.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you a second to talk there.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so part of so Kennedy came out supporting this executive order.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And which a lot of people felt that that was a betrayal.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so you see this division now in the Maha movement and people separating from the Maha movement.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Kennedy framed his support as like a defense readiness necessity, and he argued that we can't dismantle the chemical farming system overnight without causing a total collapse of the food supply and therefore, you know, collapse of um, you know, danger to our national security.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm trying to wrap my head around, you know, he he it's my understanding that he campaigned against glyphosate, like getting glyphosate out of the system.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then now we have this.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like you know, you you mentioned previously in the show about making compromises, and that when the system does uh be does become industrial, does become national, there's always compromises that are being made.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm wondering, what do you think has happened here, you know, for Kennedy to have this shift and for Trump to come out?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I would gather that Trump is so crafty at making deals.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: I would gather he made some kind of deal with Bayer.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: I know Bayer had come out and said, I think just recently, that oh, they may have to shut down production because of all these lawsuits against glyphosate, which you know they are now the owners of glyphosate here um in our country.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm wondering, do you think you know, Bayer doesn't just make glyphosate, Bayer makes medications?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think there's some something involved there with oh, if Bayer shuts down, people can't get their medications, for example, and so he can't let that happen?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or what what do you think?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: I know we're all speculating here, but you have more probable insight than most people.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, what do you think is actually happening here?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Is this some deal that he maybe had to strike?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Did he really did Trump really not care about the Maha movement to begin with?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Was my thought was when he signed um when he chose Kennedy, it was for political reasons.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, and he's allowed him to make some advances, but now this happens, so so what do you think?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm gonna try and resist the urge to be cynical and snarky.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is a safe space, Lisa.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: You you you can you can be as uh snarky as you want to be here, Lisa.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're uh all in your corner.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and let me and let me jump in and say too, like, so we so it's not to point fingers, like it's it's to understand.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Joel and I are big proponents of let's give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like it doesn't help to blame and shame people, but let's really try to open up the like the world, the food space here so that people can start to understand what is this space really all about so that they're not duped, so they're not lulled into this false sense of security.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Instead, we can help empower them and they're not waiting for someone else to swoop in and save them.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe, you know, feel free to speak as you will.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I know your heart is you want to provide solutions.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Sina.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you and you frame that really, really well.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in a, you know, in a way that I really agree with.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, again, my cynicism isn't, and it's not even cynicism cynicism.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's hard, hard-earned, you know, experience, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's not against any single individual.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and I guess that's why a lot I have sort of refrained from a lot of criticism in recent years, and especially in the last year and a half, in my experience um, you know, doing that work for Bobby um during the election.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we can maybe talk about that a little bit too.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll guess I'll just preface that by saying that I refrained from that because I felt like it would be an opportunity instead for division and be understood as a criticism when really, from my perspective, it's just a highlighting of how broken the entire system is.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that if our goal is to eat nutritious food, to be vital, to be healthy, to have strong communities, then that's something that we do, you know, locally and regionally.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess, you know, I guess I'll just, you know, I really want to emphasize that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and, you know, I don't know if you want me to maybe talk about a little bit of that.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: I can.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, the other thing that there's another thing that sort of comes to my mind too, because, you know, you mentioned like how a lot of people in the Maha space are, you know, feeling upset and disenchanted, which is which is understandable.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely had a lot of those moments as I was coming up through the ranks.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it was primarily with the organic industry, you know, who betrayed us um rather significantly on GMO labeling.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell people that one of the main reasons we don't have GMO labeling is because how the organic industry colluded with government um to kill that, you know, or to significantly water it down.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's another story.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: But that's my background.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Another example is like we all kind of remember when Michelle Obama um launched um an organic garden, right?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: They would say it's organic.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as soon as, you know, activists like myself sort of got behind that, and I had the wonderful privilege of visiting that garden with um Wes Jackson and Fred Kershman and Wendellberry.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um that was, you know, that was really amazing, and a lot of us embraced that.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as soon as that happened, Crop Life came in, challenged the Obama administration and Michelle, and made made it so that it was no longer organic.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so that went away.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so you see that just some really kind of smaller examples in the whole scheme of things that you get to see how much influence these corporations have, these multinational corporations.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just like I said, it's inherent in the system.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, my latest experience, you know, which, you know, Joel was an integral part of that.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had a lot of conversations at that time.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I called Joel.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was asked to be on a small committee um to work under Bobby, and I'm, you know, and I'm and I'm gonna try and make, you know, maintain some of that confidentiality, you know, um, because it wasn't a public committee, um, but it also wasn't an official transition committee.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a request um by Bobby, um, you know, RFK Jr.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: to say, you know, let's put together a really robust team.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I thought of it as a team um at the USDA for, you know, building a USDA that can initiate regeneration.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And Joel was one of my first calls.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I asked Joel, I said, you know, who do you think?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Who would be an amazing secretary of agriculture?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And very enthusiastically, Joel didn't skip a beat, and he said, Thomas Massey.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I guess that part is public, you know, a lot of people do know that now.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I said, why, you know, because that surprised me.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he and he and he shared that with me, you know, you know, why he thought he would be an excellent secretary.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Thomas, to his credit, he he went through the entire interview process with us as a committee.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he was so humble.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: He did not assume that he would be the shoe-in.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: He allowed us to ask him all the hard questions and didn't take anything for granted.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, that was there's a probably a lot to say there about how that all went down.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and one of my committee members, you know, probably summed it up best most recently by saying, you know, there's a lot of horse trading, and it really was, you know, about who to accept and who not to accept and and whatever.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so anyway, to just sum that all up, we can go into that a little bit more if you like, but I don't want to dominate the whole conversation here with that.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but when that was kind of all said and done, if you will, meaning like Trump got elected, and then, you know, our work really began in earnest because we were, you know, kind of at the table with the Trump team advocating for our people, um, that we had put in at the top, like the under-secretary positions, with the focus of my personal focus, I can say, I guess I can say confidently, is that I was vetting candidates who would be willing to use government money to put in infrastructures for regionalized food systems and regenerative food systems, and people that I could see would be willing to work with them, with with one another in different departments, you know.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, like the food and nutrition department with the school, um, school food, would you be willing to work with where would you want to put dollars in relationship with like rural development and research dollars and things like that?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, my that was my lens of like building in not only regenerative, truly regenerative and organic systems, but also ones that would help to build in more infrastructure so that people could become more independent and have more say-so in their localized food system.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, again, to just kind of cut to the chase, we didn't get any of those candidates in any of those positions.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: One of our recommendations at a very high level went in at a lower level, I guess, is the best way to say it.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm really happy that this individual went in, you know, he's a very strong advocate for regenerative, but we wanted him to have a much higher position to have much more influence.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody else, nobody else went in for that.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess I'm not I I wasn't that surprised to sum it up with this most recent, you know, executive order because of that experience.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: So so the the the philosophy here, I mean, if we if we go to philosophy, what it seems to me like uh a cousin of this philosophy that we just got in this executive order would be, well, we'd better make sure that we have factory farms so that we produce enough food.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: We'd better uh we'd better make sure that uh you know that that municipalities have enough money to pull the manure out of the water uh that's generated by um you know uh you know, where does this where does this go?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's it's such a it it it it just seems like why why this and why now?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh if I can speculate, like you said, we're speculating, but my observation is that A, the the Maha movement was having a lot more impact than what they were comfortable with.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's one thing.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the second thing is the the you know the decision on the tariffs came down just what the next day or two days later, which they certainly knew what that decision was gonna be.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not very often that they're surprised by things, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: The timing is what to pay attention to, and there's no coincidences, right, in DC.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody, everybody knows.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, there is that.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then I also heard recently um from a scientist that I know the speculation about the white phosphorus and war weapons and Iran.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an expert in that, but you know, that was the other thing that was embedded in this, and so um, you know, codifying glyphosate specifically, I'll just say that the the the big egg industry is very well known for attaching things, right?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: To things that have to spend or have to go.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say the must-pass spending bills.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, oh my gosh, we fought a number of those.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Probably the most infamous one that, you know, my organization did, you know, me and my co-founder, was what uh we dubbed the Monsanto Protection Act.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a writer that was attached to a must-pass spending bill that gave immunity to Monsanto, that they that even if an environmental impact statement, if a judge agreed that an EIS needed to be performed on a genetically engineered crop before it was approved or deregulated, um, that an EIS would have to be performed.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so CFS, Center for Food Safety, was, you know, this was their, you know, this was something they were so, you know, instrumental for, very key in doing, in challenging the USDA on that.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so what Monsanto said is they said, well, you know what?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just bypass all of that.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just bypass the judicial process, and we'll codify in the law that even if a judge states that that we have to stop planting, you know, stop selling our seed rather, and farmers have to stop planting until an EIS is performed, let's just bypass all of that and create a law that says that we can bypass it.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what this writer was.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so we called it the Monsanto Protection Act, and that was the moment, if you will, and that was also at the time that we were in our lawsuit against Monsanto, challenging their patents.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that was also at the time that we were, you know, trying to pass GMO labeling bills.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot happening in 2011, 2012, and um we got that removed.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: It passed, Obama signed it, unbelievably, but we made such a stink as a movement that six months later we got it repealed, okay?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just saying, that's a you know, you can see that in Wikipedia right now.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was such a moment that awakened people, but they're known for doing this, you know, and politicians will do it, you know, they'd like hand these things out like candy on Halloween, you know.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that could have just been, you know, well, let's just throw this in there so we can bypass all of these lawsuits and whatever, right?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a pretty reasonable possibility.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: From a from a political, uh, from a political um whatever clout, a political clout standpoint, um, I think it's important for everybody to understand that the core of the Republican Senate is all from big ag states.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Oklahoma.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the those those those red states are the core of the Republican power in the Senate.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so those senators are completely beholden to big ag and that's a lot of power.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Influence.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, people power and influence.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to give them the power.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have the power, in my opinion.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think people have the power.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: The people I think the people do have the power, and I love that you said that, Lisa.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know what comes to mind is that I think that this executive order has left some people feeling powerless because they put their hope and faith in something and in this movement, and then it's like they got stabbed in the back, you know, and betrayed.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I never I didn't feel that way because I didn't put my you know, my full faith into it.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: But there are still things that you learn about that that do contribute towards people feeling like they don't make a difference.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, you mentioned you're on your hand selected to help fill in the you know those positions under Kennedy.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember that website, and you and I have talked about this, the website that they put forward, and we all got to um uh nominate people.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, the actual citizens got to post people there, they got to vote for people.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember people getting so excited, feeling like, oh, there's such transparency here, and they care what we think.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: And like, you know what I mean?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, they're actually gonna take our thoughts into consideration, and we have a chance here to get people in there that we vote for.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember seeing Joel's name on the list and Massey and Zen Honeycut from Moms Cross America.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: But when I look back, like none of those people, even though they're like top voted on that website by the people, none of them actually got into these positions.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so is this all I feel like in some regards, they're just trying to keep us engaged and give us enough little small wins to keep us moving, and it's almost like an illusion of that we actually that they number one this may sound a little cynical, but that like what we say is actually mattering to the to the end outcome, hence that website, because they seem to be there's bigger players, there's big money involved that seems to be directing the decisions anyway.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: But am I missing the is am I far off on that?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: What happened with that website?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like what what's happening here that it seems like we're not actually being listened to, um, and big money is swooping in and speaking loudly.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we Americans have a great love affair with democracy, and it's kind of like when you stay in a relationship too long, it's usually lots of times because of the fantasy that you hold in your head of what I think we can all relate what you thought it could be, right?
• 37:23
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Unrealized potential.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's I think that that's kind of what's going on.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that that, you know, for some people that may be a stretch, but I think I think we'd kind of maintain this idealism, if you will, of democracy.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not because it's, you know, a bad model necessarily, but I think it's also because a lot of people don't necessarily um connect to it in a way that is its true potential or um intention, if you will.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what I what I mean by that, um, I mean, maybe I'll dial it down a little bit to like where I grew up and raised my kids, um, you know, which is where I'm at right now, which is Iowa.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, like our organizational name was Food Democracy Now.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that came from I I was literally like, you know, looking out my my window where my skid, my kid's swing set is.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I'm just really gonna dial it down.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was at the back of the yard, and my neighbor was out there like pushing his Scott's fertilizer with his little thing around up, you know, killing his weeds.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I was just infuriated, first of all.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: But the second thing that came in, I was like, who am I kidding?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I drive two hours one way to go get food for my kids because there's no organic food here.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, and then this happens, right?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I there's no democracy, there's no food democracy.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't have a say-so, right?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: In what happens, you know, in the food system where I live.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because we were, you know, when I say we, I mean Iowans, you know, there's like a long history there of, you know, particularly Tom Vilsack, who became governor of Iowa, senator before that, greasing the wheels for big egg, and you know, systematically changing our um government structure, taking away local control of seed on all kinds of things, where KFOs were placed, all of this, right?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, there's a very intentional effort that a lot of people miss, right?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're just kind of living our lives.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, none of these things just sort of happen by accident or in a vacuum or whatever.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very intentional.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: So where's the democracy in that, right?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Did we have a vote on that?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Iowans, did we have a vote?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Was that put up for a vote that you know we get to that, you know, we could have the most heavily sprayed state for glyphosate?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, we were never asked that, and but that's the thing that probably impacts Iowans the most.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Iowa has the the second highest rate of cancer, it has the only growing, you know, rate, you know, of like unique cancers.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's like kind of in a vacuum here of people understanding why.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that was never put to a vote of the people, they just did it, and so that's why I say I think we have to really kind of come to terms, you know, that there really is a democracy in that way of the things that impact us the most, which is what we need the most, which is food, water, you know, energy and things like that.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't have any sort of real um purview over that, other than maybe at a local level, very local, and if we only if we decide to exercise that.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what I was saying earlier, uh or what I was saying about um, you know, the organic industry being in my mind, in my experience, largely responsible for us losing on GMO labeling.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people who are maybe new to, you know, uh organic, like newer, you know, in the last maybe 10 years or new to Maha or just kind of waking up to like their health issues, that may not mean a whole lot to them.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, my experience um, you know, that led up to GMO labeling is that I came in through, you know, I came into this whole world through organic, you know, being like a really committed um organic eater or consumer, however you want to say that.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And because I realized that that was gonna be the best food that I could get for my kids.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: I initially did that because of, you know, environmental concerns.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm like that, you know, tree hugging dirt worshiper.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: I know in my heart.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're what we call those crunchy moms.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um, you know, but I've and I've been that way for, you know, I don't know, 19, 20 years old, right?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: I had my first child when I was 22.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just really a natural way of being for me and not any sort of, you know, trend or fad or anything.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm just always seeking to find, you know, what's more true, what has more integrity, you know, and that's and that's iterative, right?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not an absolute, right?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm constantly learning about this and you know, achieving, you know, better ways of being in my life and health and all of that.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I also want to say that, but but getting back to the organic industry and our experience with them in GMO labeling, we, you know, as a group, you know, um, meaning like there was like foundational groups in the movement, food food movement and organic movement that started the GMO labeling campaigns.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it was our organization, Food Democracy Now, um, Organic Consumers Association.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um let's see who else.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: What um it's been like quite a while ago.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Nature's Path, you know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: The cereal company, Lundberg Rice, um, and um Dr.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: McCola Company, and um one of their little oh Eden Foods.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: And those were the companies that um you know are still family owned.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the ones that really spearheaded this effort in the states for GMO labeling.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we started in California, that was in on the 2012 ballot.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: That was also the same year that we were in our lawsuit against Monsanto, challenging their patents.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that was a really big year for us um as a movement and also, you know, personally in our organization.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, after that, we went through different ballot initiatives in the West.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then there were state labeling bills that we, you know, worked on and you know, supported with a lot of leaders in the East because they were like, you know, state bills.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, in the West, it was ballot initiatives.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like from you know, 2011 to 2016, there was a lot of efforts, you know, nationally to label genetically engineered foods.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the ballot initiative in 2012 is really what woke people up, and that's what I said on the election night.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was a um a colleague and friend of mine who was making a film at the time.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when I walked in the door, she put the camera on me and she said, How do you how do you feel?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I really tried to not burst into tears because I had just found out with a just a couple of my colleagues who on that committee did an exit poll, and they found out that we were gonna lose by a very small margin.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of went into the election result night knowing we were gonna not win.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: So when she asked me how I felt, you know, I I didn't want to burst into tears, but instead I sort of, you know, alchemized that, if you will, and said, um, no matter what happens tonight, um, I said, we've succeeded in awakening the sleeping giant that people now know more broadly, nationally.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows that GMOs are real because before that people kind of thought it was like a really weird conspiracy.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people didn't really believe me, you know, yeah, that that was going on.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of hard to believe now in 2026 that it was like that, but it really was.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that a lot of people didn't know.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: And 64 other countries at that time were already labeling genetically engineered foods, and people in America, up until we did that ballot initiative as a group in 2012, they just they didn't know that, right?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's crazy.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, so we, you know, that was probably our biggest accomplishment with that.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we lost by like 1% or like one and a half percent, even though we were outspent like six or seven X by all these large companies.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: But going through that process, it was like um, you know, it was I called it like at the time, I think separating the wheat from the chaff, because we got to see who was truly supportive of us as far as organic companies and organizations and who signed on and who didn't at that time.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I got that chance to observe that and and I did that all throughout to 2016 um to see who you know came on board, if you will, and even those groups and organizations and companies that acted uh to defeat these efforts.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I sort of say that I lost my innocence in that way with the organic community, because I it became really clear like who was really on the side of the people, if you will, because it was much more beneficial for American citizens to have GMO labeling.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the organic industry, um, not the entire organic industry, like not those companies that I named, but some of the other companies, like um those a lot of them represented by the Organic Trade Association.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they were actively in DC telling legislators to water down the labeling, to do QR codes.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as a group, we had a lobbyist in DC in 2016 after all this had kind of culminated and became a federal effort.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's another story how it became a federal effort that I can share too.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: But um, we had a lobbyist there and he came back to our group, our small group, and he said, I'm a little confused.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Do you guys want QR codes or do you want, you know, made with genetic engineered ingredients?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Which, of course, we wanted the ladder made with genetically engineered ingredients.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: QR codes are, I mean, who does a QR code on every single thing they pick up at the store?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we knew it was kind of an end run around.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: And also the definition was a problem too.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I can explain a little bit more about that if you like.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: But um we said, no, we want the ladder.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, Well, these senators are confused because there are people from our that represent organic um that are going in and telling them they want the QR codes.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I also got that from another really good source, um, a colleague of mine um that represents um a large company that we've all heard of, but was on sides with us.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: And he wanted, he called me up, he wanted to meet me one day, and he said, I want you to know this, that I was there with the Organic Trade Association, and I heard this is exactly what they're doing.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I have it on really good um sources that this is what was happening.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, you know, I guess I share that, you know, not to not to villainize, because I don't think we really gain a lot, you know, from continuing to do that.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we're in an era right now where people are, you know, waking up to a lot of hard truths, you know, in our society, like in every sector.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think the benefit in knowing is then like, well, what does that mean for me?
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean for my family?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean for my food quality?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and for me, that um is just like one data point in like a whole series of data points of how the organic label has been changed over the years.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: In 2017, when I was working on the hydroponic issue with all of the farm, a lot of the foundational farmers in America, um, to maintain that integrity.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I went so far as to call it fraudulent.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I even looked up the definition of fraud because I want to be sure I'm really solid on this.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to just be, you know, going off because I'm upset right now.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was upset um about it because I really relied upon organic food in the grocery stores, you know, a lot of us do.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we need it to be nutritious and healthy and clean and all of that, right?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: We really need that.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't just need to be trendy and eat organic, we really need that food.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I said, you know, if this passes, it will be a fraudulent label, especially because what we believed it to be, you know, in you know, the I guess it was like 2002 when those um standards were enacted on our food and that label, you know, came under our food.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that was the year.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's the label looks the same, but the meaning of it is different.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's all kinds of things now that it means and are added to it that weren't there in the beginning.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's changed.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why I said it's it's fraudulent.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people kind of don't want to say that in our movement because, and I understand why I was been very hesitant too as well over the years, um, because we didn't want to hurt organic farmers and we didn't want to dissuade people from buying organic because it's still the best you can get.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: And some people say, well, it's in some cases, it's the better of two evils.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I say the better of two evils is still evil, right?
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: If it's, you know, things aren't represented well.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we really have to be discerning.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I still believe that organic in the grocery store is better than non-organic in many cases, most cases probably in the grocery store.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: But through my work on organic standards over the years, my work and being in a lot of these meetings and working on policies and all of those things, um, you know, I still think it's best to buy from um local, regional, get to know those farmers, um, find out what their practices are.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Are they biological, regenerative, biodynamic, organic?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do they care about the food they're producing?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And do you feel that vitality from that food?
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's the most important thing.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and really calibrate um to that.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because like I said, more than anything, we need vitality and we need nutrition.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: We we don't need, you know, trendy labels.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's packaging and all of that.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't do really much for us at the end of the day, you know.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, you maybe have some follow-up questions to that.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, uh quite a few.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so why did um why did hydroponics get passed?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like why because I remember that being a big deal, and I remember yeah, organic farmers trying to fight against allowing hydroponics to be labeled in as organic because you're not adding to the soil.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the tenets, at least when I read the rules of organic, it talks about soil.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the tenets is to build soil.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, it made perfect sense.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: Why would you allow something that is grown in water, for example, with no soil, to be called organic?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's devoid of soil.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: Give it its own category, but don't water down the organic label and make us think that we're getting food that's grown in presumably healthier soil when it's devoid of soil.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, we've talked about that before on this program that we need soil, right?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: Life sprung from the soil.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we need to eat those microbes, for example, that come from the soil into the plant for us to be healthy.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, how did that happen?
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how did we get hydroponics in organics?
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we have long enough to tell that whole story.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, was there the highlights?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah, because I'm wondering, was that one corrupted too?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm imagining there must have been some industry um, you know, say in that.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm wondering, after hearing the story about the GMO labeling, was there also people that we would think that would be um trying to get hydroponics out of the label that were actually behind closed doors trying to get it in the label?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's the same story.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's it's some of the same players.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Organic Trade Association.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, whom to be fair, I I think started out uh wanting to get at the very beginning, um, you know, a good friend and colleague of mine, Dave Chap Dave Chapman, um, who's one of the directors of Real Organic Project, I'm one of the, you know, uh founders, I guess.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was um on the founding executive board of that, of Real Organic Project.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not on the advisory board.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'll just say that if you know anyone is compelled, you know, in this moment to really want to seek that good organic food that I'm talking about, look for the real organic label.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's really solid.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: And those standards are developed by organic farmers who don't feel that the organic label represents how they farm anymore.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to, it's really important.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there are answers available, right?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um so to preface that, uh, you know, I actually just interviewed Dave again um for my podcast that I'm um restarting um that I haven't you know recorded for in a few years.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um but Dave, so Dave and I just had this conversation maybe a month ago.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, he reminded me that Organic Trade Association and the woman who was leading at that time, Laura Bacha, she I think wanted to help the farmers at that time because I feel like maybe they didn't know, possibly, that hydroponic was being approved because in a 2010 meeting, and I'm just gonna warn you that I I I know a lot about this.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm giving if I'm going down too much into the weeds, I'm like, just let me know.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I had to learn about it, a lot about it, because you know, and I started that campaign to protect organic alongside, you know, this campaign um ahead of the Jacksonville meeting, the National Organic Standards Board meeting in um November of 2012, 2017 rather.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: So in 2010, you know, they determined the National Organic Standards Board said hydroponic has no place in organic.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: That was decided.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: And also, as you pointed out in the Organic Food Production Act, is a part of the law that you have to improve soil.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it kind of seems like a non-starter, right?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: That you know, hydroponics is just not available to be certified organic, right?
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what happened is that um some of these companies, especially Driscolls and Wholesome Harvest, um, they were being approved by CCOF, you know, California certifiers, you know, of organic farming, uh, which is a main certifier, you know, from you know, from the beginning of organic certification in the US.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they were certifying hydroponic organic as organic.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they were just simply looking at um, you know, inputs, if you will, like this binary.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: Did you do this, did you not do that, did you do this, did you not do that?
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: And not considering that they weren't even growing in soil, you know?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so Dave Chapman um discovered this.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: He is a um a greenhouse grower of tomatoes in Vermont.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's called Little Guy Tomatoes or Little Guy Organics or something.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, Dave.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember the full name, but um he grows in the soil, you know, he's greenhouse, you know, because he's in the north, um, but he's all about the soil, right?
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't grow hydroponically or anything like that.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, uh we gave comments on that.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was there with Dave for a couple of other, you know, standards board meetings, like 2016.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then, you know, the end of 2017, there's two organic standards board meetings every year, one in the spring, one in the fall.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and basically what those meetings do, just so people know, is that there's things that come up for review.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's thing called sunset.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so things can be approved for five years.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is how it used to be, it's not anymore, which is another major change to organic, but they used to just automatically fall off if they were something that was added that farmers needed to kind of get them through that transitionary period to be fully compliant, or if there was like a disease or a pest showing up, um, you know, in animals or food crops, it kind of gave them the opportunity to add a, you know, a less invasive um, you know, pesticide, natural pesticide, something like this to help them maintain their certification, get them through that period, and then it would fall off.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, those standards changed in I think 2014, I think that's when it changed.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was at that meeting.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was in San Antonio, Texas.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: And Organic Conservative Association even did a protest.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, Alexis, a woman that, you know, who's a colleague of mine, um, she got hauled off literally by the police.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was very dramatic.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um I had footage of that that went into the film Um Organic Rising, if you're interested in seeing that, um by um Anthony Sway.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: He just released that, I don't know, like a year and a half ago or something, that film, Organic Rising.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it's in there.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was Don't Change Sunset, because they were wanting to change the sunset roles, and they succeeded.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: So they changed it from it automatically coming off those things, those things that were added to the standards that weren't initially there and quote organic.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it changed that to now you need a majority vote to remove things major change, especially now that the organic standards board is heavily stacked with those that have an um a financial interest or corporate interest in organic.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that changed at that meeting.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: Also, what changed at that meeting that was very foundational is that the national organic program took over chairmanship or co-chairmanship of the meetings themselves.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: So before that, the National Organic Standards Board, 15 people from different areas of organic processing, you know, advocacy, farming, and um, I can't remember the other thing.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's like four categories that people are appointed from.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and maybe it's like, you know, corporations or something like this, you know, business.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so before that, the National Organic Standards Board was advising the National Organic Program, which is what implemented the standards, okay, and the certification.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: That meeting shifted not only the sunset rules, that meeting in San Antonio in the fall of 2014 also shifted um the advisement that the advisory position became basically in a nutshell the National Organic Program advising itself.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that they got to determine what was on the agenda and you know, either let things come up or not.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a major those two things were a major blow to organic.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the and let me make sure I'm following this and all the listeners are following this.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the reasons why that was a major blow is because that board is stacked with industry players, right?
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's one thing.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: On the sunset rules, yeah.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so why else would it be um why else is it bad to have this board advising itself?
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's not the board advising itself, the NOSB is the board, and they were uh acting as advisor, making recommendations, setting the agenda for those meetings, like what would be discussed, and then sending those recommendations to the National Organic Program to implement.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: That meeting shifted that um the person um who was the deputy director, I think that was his title, of the National Organic Program was Miles McAvoy.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: Miles McAvoy um sort of took over that meeting and said, We're now gonna chair the National Organic Standards Board.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it went from the board advising the NOP to the NOP saying, no, we're now gonna chair the board that advises us.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so the program is advising itself, and the program itself is that stacked with industry players?
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it is increasingly now.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so there's really no check.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's are you saying there's really no check on like usually you want to have check and checks and balances.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: Are they lacking that now because they're just advising themselves?
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would my assessment is yes.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I will say that the last standards board meeting that I attended was in 2017, that one in Jacksonville, Florida, when we lost um to uh include hydroponics.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because after a lot of these events, for me personally, I was like You know, I just felt like I don't want to say it's a waste of time because I honor those people, like especially the Real Organic Project.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: I believe they still stay involved, you know.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: Which kudos to them.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think people do need to stay involved there, but I'll just say that we have far less as people who eat and as farmers who grow, we have less influence over that label now.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: And industry has more influence over that label.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of organic products are made from organic certified ingredients, meaning they're not so connected to the farms.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them are not very familiar with their sourcing.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's become akin to like a commodity system, right?
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: Where things just sort of get dumped.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you want to make like a cheddar bunny cracker, you just find the organic ingredients and you don't have a real connection to the farmer or farmers that are growing that wheat.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, unlike these companies that I named, like Lundberg's and probably Nature's Path, I would say, who really wish to maintain the integrity of their ingredients, their connection to them, their, you know, stewardship and overseeing it, right?
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of companies, a lot of organic companies have sold out to these multinationals.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them have.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want in the show notes, you know, we could, you know, link to this chart, you know, that was developed, I don't know, probably 20 years ago.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably familiar with it, you know, that shows the ownership of a lot of these organic and national companies.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's growing all the time.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people will just start natural brands um only to have for the sole purpose of selling them, you know, to these national companies.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's because there's money in it now, you know, you become a victim of your own success in a capitalist um system, unless you choose to maintain that integrity and you know, um, stewardship of your company.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is this why?
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we talked about the um the GMO labeling and losing that one.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um is this one of the reasons why?
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, you know, I'm listening to what you're sharing here, and I already knew this story, and still I am was tearing up hearing the story being told in you know in real time here, because there is just this level of um disappointment, and it seemed it it can feel so um a little bit surreal, but also like an abandonment that there's these companies, because if I'm hearing you right, um, and I want to make sure the listeners are getting are are understanding this the story uh you know of this GMO labeling so that they're walking away empowered, so that because they're understanding what's really going on behind the scenes.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_02: So in your story, what I'm hearing is that there are some companies who we would think that would want the GMO label, and maybe even publicly gave the impression that they were for the GMO label, but behind the scenes they were trying to water it down, like with the QR code, for example, because it wasn't in their best interest to have GMOs labeled.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm assuming that that's because there's uh it hits the bottom dollar, right?
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is that 100 100?
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: So why like so it and this might be really difficult for some of the listeners to um digest this information, including myself, which is why I was tearing up as you were sharing this story, um, because we don't want to believe this, you know, like because then if we don't have those companies that are that we think are on our side fighting for the integrity of our food that we feed our families, who do we have?
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to get to that in just a second, but why would they do that?
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_02: What what is their motivation?
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so they're making money by not having GMOs be um properly, transparently labeled?
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, is that that qu that's my question?
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: It are they how how are they making money on having GMOs not being labeled transparently?
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, that's a really great question.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and maybe, you know, I can preface it with two or maybe three um date data points um to kind of you know lead people along that path um of understanding, you know, without going into that arena of naming names and cramming villains out of people.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'll give you enough of the breadcrumbs that you can maybe.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I love that because it's a it's if you need to.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we don't need names, and I don't want to get anyone in trouble or anything because um, you know, the point is to have the overall concept, the understanding of how the system is working.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we don't, I don't want to put you in a in jeopardy.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not go there, just the main understanding so that we know how to navigate the food system and we know where to look for solutions.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, okay, yeah, I love that.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate that you and I are always on the same page with this, and so I appreciate having this conversation with you.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I feel like maybe the best place to start on that is to just go back to the organic labeling um movement, if you will, because it did become a movement.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it started actually with a meeting in Boulder, Colorado.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was at the start.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_01: There was a few things before that, you know, of some grassroots organizers in California.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to, you know, give acknowledgement to that, um, who thought felt like we needed Gmail labeled.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then um in um, I'm trying to think of what year that might have been.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was in 2013, probably.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there was a meeting of like probably every national organic, foundational organic company you can think of.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a few of us, you know, activist organizations, also some certifiers like non-GML projects, um that came together in Boulder, Colorado.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is before I moved there, um, to discuss this.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it would this be a good thing for um, you know, the organic industry to get behind, because I think everybody knew that it was really major.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And after that meeting, there was, I don't know, I would I would say I'm having a hard time remembering now because it was so long ago, but um 50 to 100 people there, you know, it wasn't like a small meeting.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then it was in a hotel ballroom.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then after that meeting, I sat down with those of us leaders who would at a dinner, there was like six of us who would probably end up spearheading that, you know, because of our, you know, positioning, I guess, as far as like being able to finance it and also having the numbers, you know.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: At that time we had like 750,000 people, you know, um, as a part of our organization.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and, you know, we were um I would say that a lot of people would agree that I don't feel like I'm bragging when I say that we had the most active um organization in food and agriculture.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we were a part of that conversation and it was a little bit split.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or it was split.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: There was like half of us were saying, no, that we shouldn't do this.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: It could be, it could be worse, and it'll be an insane amount of money and an insane amount of effort, which they were right.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other half of us, which I, you know, there was like three of us, that said, no, this will, even if we don't win, this will be the campaign to end all campaigns because we'll make it a political issue, especially if we do it in California, which was also true.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Both things were true.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that we did lose, it was an insane amount of money and an insane amount of effort.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we did, you know, like I said earlier, waken that sleeping giant.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So all things were true.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, we do did get like, you know, this sort of watered-down GMO labeling, but as we were doing that, um, a federal effort came forth.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And this was probably the thing I really wanted to share with you.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it was called Just Label It.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And just label it was made up of organic companies.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was spearheaded by Gary Hirschberg, you know, who, you know, he was the face of it and all of that.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they had nothing to do with the state efforts, although when the states had a victory, meaning like we got enough um signatures, um, which was a big effort in California to get it on the ballot.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_01: That was a big effort alone.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was the first hurdle.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he made sure to be quoted and received some kudos for that.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Even though he wasn't involved at that point, even though he wasn't involved in the state efforts.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's one data point.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the federal efforts were more were easier to control, if you will.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because that that was all in D all in DC, right?
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_01: That was all gonna be, you know, politicians and USDA and you know, whatever, all of that regulatory stuff that we often don't win on as people, you know, as advocates.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's um the federal effort is a much easier effort to control, if you will.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: But having a campaign saying you're for it um means that you can get a lot of the spotlight, you can get a lot of the energy, you can get a lot of the funding, um, but it doesn't necessarily need to be directed to these state efforts, and it was not directed to these state efforts.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So even though we at the time we publicly I would say we presented a united front behind the scenes, it was it was not united.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: There was a state effort, which was more on behalf of the people and you know, some of these really solid companies of integrity, organic companies that were family owned, um, you know, and associations and things that were like, we want to do GMO labeling because it's the right thing to do.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then you had a federal effort saying, holy crap, are they really gonna succeed?
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because if they do, um, we'll probably lose some of our market share because one of the things that the a lot of the organic companies, organic industry hung their hats on, is um being non-GMO.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in quote.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Not true non-GMO, but perceived non-GMO.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole other rabbit hole to go down.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so since that time period, you will now notice certain companies will say there's there's no certifying body behind this little little, I don't know, it's not even a sticker, but it's just like a little emblem or phrase rather that they put on their products.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think um, I've seen Organic Valley have it say organic is non-GMO.
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so those started to emerge during this time because that was one of the things that organic companies hung their hats on in their marketing.
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's non-GMO and there's no pesticides.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_01: I tell people, eaters, people who eat that food, to be aware that it's only non-GMO by process, meaning you can't you can only plant like organic seeds for alfalfa for like your cows.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_01: However, those seeds are not tested, there's no requirement for testing, and there is contamination of organic seed.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know this for certain.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is contamination, but in America, you don't need to test for that.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_01: In America, you don't need to test under the organic certification, you don't need to test for contaminant contamination of seed, GMO contamination, and you don't need to test for um like pesticide contamination.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's companies that will do that voluntarily, but it's not required like it is in Europe.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't I'll jump in it real fast.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to detract from the story, but I don't think most people realize that the organic certification is largely a paper trail.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a check the box.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like we didn't use this, we didn't use this, or we did this, you know, it's a paper trail.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really go out there, let me test your soil, let me know, test the the craps.
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're trusting that they're filling out that paperwork um in full honesty and transparency.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's organic by process, and that's kind of like you know, a common industry understanding, I will, if you will, but I don't think a lot of people understandably um understand what that means.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's essentially what that means.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I mentioned, you know, earlier in the interview that I I felt like you know, a lot of what motivates me to talk to people is that I know these things because I say I feel like I have to have a PhD in organic, and I don't say that to make myself sound smart.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I make myself to make people understand.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have a PhD, you know how much work that is, right?
• 1:21:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's and I'm like, okay, we're just eating here, you know.
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Should you have to have a PhD in organic to know, you know, just what to to eat and what's good for you, you know, that has nutrition.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think no, you shouldn't.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, that's why, you know, I'm so really excited about and and proud from my part in the founding of the Real Organic Project, because that is the closest label, if you will, that and biodynamic, you know, which biodynamic has its foundation organic certification, but they go the extra mile, and that is a very rigorous certification, like Demeter certification, and it's an international body, so it doesn't have like different uh standards for the US, different for Europe, different for the UK, different, you know, for whatever.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's an international body, and that's what makes it also a really strong standard.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_01: But also why you don't see it that often in a grocery store, the Demeter label.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if you ever see the Demeter label, um, like white leaf comes to mind, white leaf, um, you know, biodynamic baby food.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have a granddaughter, and that's you know, this is kind of a tangent, but that is that's a lifesaver, it really is.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can't find, you know, true organic or true biodynamic in your area, you know, you at least have like white white leaf, you know, demeter certified.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there's other solutions, obviously, but a lot of people are just reliant on grocery stores, you know.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um I take that reality into account.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Where I where I live in Colorado, I'm so fortunate.
• 1:23:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of places like this in America, but coming from the Midwest, you know, it's it's few and far between.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not to blame any anybody, really.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's just that's just how it is for a lot of reasons, you know, and especially in the winter, right?
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_01: But where I'm from, I'm really, really fortunate, you know, that I can get this good food.
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I re realize that most people have to go to grocery stores, you know.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I think it's really important that people stay involved, they understand what the organic label is, and you know, companies that can be trusted.
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And as a shortcut, if you will, instead of studying all these companies, as a shortcut, I tell people, you know, support local and regional regenerative biological farmers, grow as much as you can, make your own food nutrient dense.
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I started offering um organic garden kits that are super simple, that remineralize your soil and put in those beneficial microbes and then add sea minerals to it, you know, and that is like the quickest way, if you will.
• 1:24:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can do compost and teas and biochar and all this stuff, and that's also beautiful.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I also realized that most people don't have that time or education or even interest to do all of that.
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if you get like one of our organic gardening kits, you're adding rock dust, you're adding the beautiful ancient microbes that do the hard work that put those minerals into your food, and then all season long you're giving it these sea-based minerals to nourish, nourish your soil and nourish your plants.
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, you know, for people living like most Americans do, you know, not on land, not within five miles of a beautiful biodynamic organic farm like I do, but um, you know, they want to have access to, you know, some good nutrient-dense food.
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_01: They maybe want a garden.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is probably the quickest way to do it, you know.
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I did that in light, I'm mentioning it because that everything I just mentioned, you know, led me to like, oh, people need to understand, you know, what nutrient-dense food is, how to how it really happens and how it grows and how they feel when they can eat it.
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love that so much.
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you mentioned regenerative, and so that's another just a quick note.
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that's one of the labels that dupes people when they see regenerative in the grocery store.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, that something can be labeled regenerative, but they still spray the crop because you can still grow the soil if you're spraying.
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's no real definition of what regenerative is or like real standards there.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_02: So some of these products, it's my understanding, can still label it as, oh, this is regeneratively grown.
• 1:26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the consumer often thinks that means it's actually beyond organic, right?
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_02: It has the be the organic standards, but it's also regrowing the soil.
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_02: But that's not necessarily true, correct?
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is another rabbit hole.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, I'll try to simplify.
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope I'm simplifying.
• 1:27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I'm I'm trying to give you the highlights because we can get in the weeds so fast.
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to keep in mind that I'm talking to people who shop every day and eat every day, and like I said, don't really necessarily have the time to do all of this.
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, so or regenerative really kind of came into being, if you will, um uh, you know, because of this sort of um organic, I'll just say this organic acreage, and you probably know this, has not grown in, I don't even know how many years, but at least a decade, I would say.
• 1:27:47
  SPEAKER_01: The acreage has not grown, although organic um sales have grown exponentially, right?
• 1:27:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you might go, how does that work?
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that gets back to that ingredients thing that I was telling you.
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And because there is source from everywhere.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And even like in 2016, this is like, I hope this doesn't take us off on another tangent.
• 1:28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But in 2016, I was at a meeting where a man stood up.
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I um I think it was John Bobby, um, who stood up and told Miles McAvoy, the uh deputy of the National Organic Program, that they discovered that there was fraudulent imports coming in in wheat, like thousands of pounds of it, right?
• 1:28:39
  SPEAKER_01: That once it arrived here, it was marked organic, though it wasn't grown organic.
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_01: So things like that happen.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and there have been some more checks and balances put into place, I think just last year that went into effect.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, so that was happening.
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's just an example.
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so organic acreage wasn't being um wasn't growing, but there was a lot of people that were gaining an interest, of course, in improving our soil and you know, in you know, mitigating climate change.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So there became there, you know, came an effort for, okay, let's kind of not expect farmers to comply with organic standards and go organic.
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And let's just let's help them to become more regenerative in their practices, which is you know completely valid, right?
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Understandable.
• 1:29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like things like no-till and cover cropping and you know, all of this, right?
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So better, but not organic.
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was, you know, that's been termed regenerative.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so to your point, um, regenerative doesn't necessarily have spray like glyphosate, but it can.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's that's true.
• 1:30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because there's no like legal definition, if you will, of regenerative.
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_01: California tried to do this last year.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where they are in this process.
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_01: They gathered comments from people to say, let's define regenerative.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do we do that?
• 1:30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's a whole other thing.
• 1:30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the same time that we were starting real organic project, real, or excuse me, um, rock regenerative organic certification was coming online.
• 1:30:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that was spearheaded by organizations like Patagonia and Dr.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Browners and um Rodale and some other, you know, institutions and companies, okay.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they sought to define what regenerative organic was, and it really created a division in the organic community, um, or maybe the organic industry is maybe a better way to say it, but it also trickled down into the organic community.
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because when they put out those standards, and I remember calling, you know, calling one of those foundational leaders of that, and I said, listen, I said, you should know that in my conversations with foundational organic farmers, many of them, in fact, all of them I've talked to, none of them can meet your standards.
• 1:31:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we maybe need to have a discussion about that.
• 1:31:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so because they added a, I think it was bronze, silver, and gold, or you know, something like this, but a tiered thing.
• 1:31:39
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember exactly what the name of it was.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And because the reason that organic farmers that were growing food for their communities, like, you know what I mean, doing all of the right, right things, if you will, right?
• 1:31:53
  SPEAKER_01: To add nutrition to the soil and nutrition to their food, and you know, their food was amazing.
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you ask yourself, why wouldn't they qualify?
• 1:32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because regenerative organic standard is called ROC ROC, they added in standards for fair pay and things like this.
• 1:32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if if you spent any time around farms like I have throughout my life, um, you know that um farmers oftentimes are just barely cutting it, right?
• 1:32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Economically.
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you know, the farm that I've spent a lot of time on in my life, Organic Farm, one of the first towards organic farms, they they would just break even.
• 1:32:37
  SPEAKER_01: They wouldn't make any money.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_01: They had a CSA, they did amazing work, had amazing food, but they would only break even.
• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_01: And their their payoff, if you will, was that they got to farm and that they got a lot of amazing food and they built an amazing community, but it wasn't financial.
• 1:32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so the people that would work there, they would have they would learn farming, they would get food, right?
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_01: They would have some pay, but it wasn't like$18 or$15 an hour or whatever, right?
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's other payoffs.
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Rock didn't really account for those things, at least in the beginning.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say that I know exactly where it's at now.
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want to sound like I'm an expert on that certification because I'm not.
• 1:33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just recalling like what those conversations were back then when these certifications were starting out.
• 1:33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it so over time, the the kind of understanding and I think even criticism of rock is that, oh, this is just a another industry label.
• 1:33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Still better, right?
• 1:33:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think they I think they do a pretty good job, you know, as far as like what we're buying in the grocery store.
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't necessarily have many criticisms of them for that in that way, but still, like if you want like really nutritious food, nutrient dense food, whatever, go towards your um, you know, your local farmer, you know, that's doing it.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there was another thing I was gonna say about that.
• 1:34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so I guess that kind of created another division, and I think also created more confusion in the marketplace, and that's rock.
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe more pointedly to your question about regenerative, that's still like, you know, you can say regenerative.
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's that, I don't think there's anybody, I don't think still that can say, oh, you can't put regenerative on your label um legally.
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_01: That would be a good thing to look at.
• 1:34:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I I don't think that's true.
• 1:34:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a consumer and a shopper, there's a better way to say it, and you see a label says, oh, we're regenerative, but they don't have the rock label and they don't have most, you know, the organic label.
• 1:34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think you should probably look into that.
• 1:35:01
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or keep the cart going down the aisle.
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:35:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, because I mean, you there's you just don't know.
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some may actually be, they may be true and be like, yeah, we're really trying to do regenerative.
• 1:35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:35:19
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're, you know, and that can be a transition.
• 1:35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and others maybe like, oh, this is gonna get somebody to buy my product, so I'm gonna do that.
• 1:35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and you honestly, you just don't know on a package.
• 1:35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:35:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 1:35:32
  SPEAKER_02: And we we're we gotta wrap up here, but um, you know, as I've been listening to this, and of course, you know, we Joel and I asked you to come on, particularly because of the executive order regarding glyphosate.
• 1:35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you've done an amazing job of helping us figure out, you know, uh to understand more about how could this executive order even come about, and um to to really give us a behind-the-scenes look of the truth about the whole food movement and between companies and activist groups and uh elected officials and bureaucrats.
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I really do appreciate it because we just we all need to have our eyes wide open because everybody has to eat food and we have to feed our kids something, yeah.
• 1:36:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been a it's been a little challenging to hear the truth um on some levels, but I'm also very grateful and I feel more steadfast than ever that what Joel and I are doing, like with this podcast and even books and talks we give, um, there is a purpose to it.
• 1:36:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like our message of the power really lies within the people, that it's the people that are gonna write this ship.
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now I feel more compelled and more affirmed that that is the right message than I ever have in my entire life.
• 1:37:09
  SPEAKER_02: And hearing things like what's happening with the organics program, it also brings to light that okay, not only have skepticism about these labels, like Joel and I, that's why we're called beyond labels.
• 1:37:22
  SPEAKER_02: You have to look beyond the label.
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also something Joel and I can provide is being the helping to be the watchdog, you know, the typical mom who's trying to get through that grocery store and she's got her kids grabbing stuff and trying to put it in the cart and hopefully it's not glimpsed, it breaks on the floor, like you're just trying to make it through the aisle.
• 1:37:41
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna be scanning QR codes with your phone and be able to read all these labels and then take the time to research, figure out what's happening.
• 1:37:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I do think that is a space where you know, Joel and I can come in and help do the research, provide this information, provide the original sources, watch the organics, um, you know, the organic program to see are they, since there's there's no sunset clause, so watch what are they doing now?
• 1:38:10
  SPEAKER_02: What are they putting in there?
• 1:38:11
  SPEAKER_02: How can you avoid this?
• 1:38:12
  SPEAKER_02: How can you make better choices?
• 1:38:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I do I was questioning what we can actually do?
• 1:38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are what is what is mine and Joel's role now?
• 1:38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, but I think that's something where we can step up and help people from your perspective.
• 1:38:26
  SPEAKER_02: I would love for you to close us out by saying, what do you think that the power really lies with the people?
• 1:38:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so what can somebody, you know, like the busy parent who just feels so overwhelmed, just wants to feed their kids something that's not toxic.
• 1:38:42
  SPEAKER_02: What's one thing that they can do today, or you know, one thing they can start moving toward so they don't get overwhelmed, just one impactful thing.
• 1:38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I, you know, I feel like I, you know, I've already repeated it many times.
• 1:38:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about, you know, connecting where you live to have that food.
• 1:39:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think if there's like one thing and all of that, and I and I say that um also coming from you know that world of um being partnered in that research for nutrient density.
• 1:39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we found um, we mainly looked at minerals.
• 1:39:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this was a very early project in that look at nutrient density, and there's more ongoing work.
• 1:39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but because we looked mainly at minerals, antioxidants, and polyphenols.
• 1:39:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we found if I could sum it up, this isn't an absolute, but if I could sum it up, generally speaking, we found that the food that was lower in nutrition um was in the grocery stores, and that ones that were higher were from those biological growers that may have organic certification, they may not have an organic certification.
• 1:40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Some of that grocery store food had organic certification, but was low in nutrition, right?
• 1:40:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yes, you know, clean food is important.
• 1:40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is something that the organic industry really pushed over time because that was what they could uh kind of rest their laurels on, that they were clean, or I would say cleaner, um, and not on nutrition.
• 1:40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Our kids need nutrition, right?
• 1:40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we don't want toxins, but if the nutrients aren't there, we're we're not gonna achieve the health and vitality that we seek.
• 1:40:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're again about leaning more towards growing your own, meaning towards, you know, leaning towards growing food and nutrient dense in organic gardens, you know, or biologically growing, however you want to say that.
• 1:41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I will add one more thing to that.
• 1:41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know you asked for one thing, but is to start really early with your kids.
• 1:41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, start early, introducing and only giving them those whole foods.
• 1:41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because like just if like a week ago, I was in the grocery store shopping with my daughter and my granddaughter, and we were starting to share a cart.
• 1:41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then we it was getting really full, and she was in it, and whatever.
• 1:41:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I got another little cart and I was taking my things out.
• 1:41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I took out my broccoli, my broccoli rob, and my granddaughter got so mad at me, she's three years old.
• 1:41:42
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, No, that's my broccoli.
• 1:41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I just looked at my daughter and I said, God bless her.
• 1:41:52
  SPEAKER_01: I said, May every child, you know, love and defend their broccoli.
• 1:41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and that really just starts with that's that's what she knows.
• 1:42:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:42:08
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't know, you know, a lot of the packaged, whatever.
• 1:42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Her main diet is those whole foods, and so that's what she wants.
• 1:42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's really it's it's simple in a sense.
• 1:42:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's hard work as a mom to cook.
• 1:42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have four, I raised four, so I get it.
• 1:42:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it really pays off, doesn't it?
• 1:42:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know you know that.
• 1:42:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know you know that.
• 1:42:34
  SPEAKER_01: So those would probably be two things as a as a mom, and you know, um is to is to seek to seek that, right?
• 1:42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Don't don't seek perfection, seek seek progress.
• 1:42:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think for me the most profound thing you've said so far in this uh discussion is that Maha has had a bigger influence than the other side thought it would.
• 1:43:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and um I think you're exactly right.
• 1:43:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that as I travel around and do speeches and stuff, I'm finding just a an enthusiasm for the fact that we now know that, for example, Coca-Cola and Pepsi get$15 billion of Snap money.
• 1:43:26
  SPEAKER_00: But you talk about outrage, uh, or that that in America we have 10,000 food additives, in Europe they only have 400.
• 1:43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Bobby has has pulled the he's opened the curtain on this.
• 1:43:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think Cena and I both uh we're we're we're pretty libertarian-minded.
• 1:43:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so we believe I mean our our core uh philosophy really is that change comes when people are informed and the and and then vote with the market as opposed to asking government to fix this or that for us.
• 1:44:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, so that that brings me to the the question then to to kind of riff on where you um you know we didn't vote for this.
• 1:44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what's the weak link?
• 1:44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is the weak link voting for it, or is the weak link the um the whatever uncaring attitude of most people that that uh well I I don't care much about food.
• 1:44:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get convenience, I'm gonna stop at happy meals, and I'm gonna do this.
• 1:44:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so ultimately we did get asked to vote through the marketplace, and people voted.
• 1:44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they voted for squeezable cheese, TV dinners, and you know, um Tyson chicken.
• 1:45:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, so then, so then the question is was the is the weak link, is the weak link that the government is not overseeing properly or didn't ask us for our vote, or is the weak link because we as a people have for whatever reason adopted convenience and complacency in our own informed, I mean, you drove two two hours.
• 1:45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why did you drive two hours?
• 1:45:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why didn't the neighbor drive?
• 1:45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because you chose to read something and inform yourself about something that the neighbor didn't choose.
• 1:45:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, back when we came to our farm in 1961, all the advice was plant corn, buy chemicals, graze the wood a lot, borrow more money, build silos, and my dad said no.
• 1:45:52
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody else bought into it.
• 1:45:55
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 1:45:56
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that makes that makes one person uh um become intentional about their decisions, their choices, their information, and another person not intentional?
• 1:46:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, that's a really great question.
• 1:46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've thought about that quite a bit.
• 1:46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I I used to sort of expect that out of people, but that you know, kind of like what I did.
• 1:46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say that, you know, when I used to speak a lot, you know, nationally on these issues, um, and on panels and things, I would I would often remind people that I was I'm that I was there in that room because I was really just a single mom from Iowa, nobody and that cared about my kids.
• 1:46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody appointed me.
• 1:46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody said, Will you go do this?
• 1:46:57
  SPEAKER_01: No one handed me a bunch of cash to start an organization or anything like that, right?
• 1:47:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was I so and I would say that because I wanted just people to know that they that they had the power to do something about about it where they lived, and that one person, and especially two when two people come together, can be really impactful.
• 1:47:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, with the organization that we did, all those things we worked on, you know, antitrust and farm bill and food safety modernization act, and all these things, it was always just the two of us initiating that, and then other people saying, Yeah, that that resonates.
• 1:47:38
  SPEAKER_01: We get that, right?
• 1:47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so and it's it's it's not to say, oh, look, we did so much.
• 1:47:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's not my point.
• 1:47:47
  SPEAKER_01: My point is to say that don't underestimate the power of your persistence and your voice, yeah.
• 1:47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:47:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:47:59
  SPEAKER_01: It it's it can be very, very influential, but the the thing is is that you you do have to be willing to to stand on really solid ground and have a true north.
• 1:48:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen repeatedly people get taken off track in their advocacy um through their weaknesses that we that we all have, you know, whether it's money or promises of influence, you know, driven by insecurities or ego or lack or scarcity or whatever, you know, that's that's always the challenge.
• 1:48:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to Cena, you know, not too long ago, that you know, I think that you know, just a person to be impactful, you have to be willing to do your internal work, to do your spiritual work, if you will, to be willing to be self-responsible, and to um, you know, be be be willing to be humble also, right?
• 1:49:06
  SPEAKER_00: With with all that said, why did Kennedy have to endorse this?
• 1:49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Why couldn't Bobby have either no comment or or or just said we're we're working it out?
• 1:49:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, anything except that this is necessary.
• 1:49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Why, why, why did he have to go to that point?
• 1:49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, again, speculating.
• 1:49:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really know for sure, obviously, but in politics, and we're really seeing this right now, really strongly, that in order to play these games, I think you I think we have to understand that there's a inherent in that system, there's a strong Willingness to um, I shouldn't say willingness, that's the wrong word, but there is an element of you know blackmail there, right?
• 1:50:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think just about every person that has been powerful or influential in politics and and also at a lot of these, you know, Hollywood or whatever you want to name, um there's always an effort to get something on them or to have them do something, or to have a sort of past.
• 1:50:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's why Bobby has been so upfront, right?
• 1:50:38
  SPEAKER_01: About, you know, recently snorting cocaine on toilet seats, right?
• 1:50:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's obviously not a very favorable thing to admit about yourself, but I think any smart person in politics, and you know, Bobby was steeped in that from the you know time he was a zygote, right?
• 1:50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he understands how that works.
• 1:50:58
  SPEAKER_01: It would be my assumption, I guess.
• 1:51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much uh we could call it political extortion.
• 1:51:05
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 1:51:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um I I think that they, and I say they, and I don't mean to sound like quote unquote conspiracy, and I don't think it is.
• 1:51:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they there there is the capacity to take out anybody.
• 1:51:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think anybody is immune.
• 1:51:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, presidents have been impeached and killed, right?
• 1:51:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's no there's no safety from that.
• 1:51:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that someone as intelligent and experienced as Bobby would probably be making that calculation and have that understanding, right?
• 1:51:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think as people understanding constituents and citizens and supporters, if you will, need to have that understanding of the playing field that he's in.
• 1:51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that there's limitations and that that would that was probably a calculation that he had to make in order to probably keep his position, I think would be the assumption there.
• 1:52:07
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:52:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so does that, you know, the the blackmailing and all these political games, does that also extend to like food activists?
• 1:52:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not just these politicians, you know, up in these higher spaces or Hollywood people.
• 1:52:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I is there also kind of some kind of politics going on amongst these food organizations or activists that kind of are playing the game, if you will.
• 1:52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe, maybe they're trapped, maybe they didn't realize what they're getting into.
• 1:52:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:52:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now they're stuck in this game, you know, and I'm trying to be as gentle as possible with my words.
• 1:52:46
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, I appreciate that.
• 1:52:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll probably do the same.
• 1:52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think I think that when a person is at sort of these um higher levels, if you will, in politics, and I got I got a taste of that, you know, I just call it inside baseball.
• 1:53:05
  SPEAKER_01: Cause like I said, there's relatively very few players at that level.
• 1:53:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that I think it's it it is very wise to be discerning and to not rule anything out.
• 1:53:22
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of activists will say follow the money.
• 1:53:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say that's true for them too, you know, that to be discerning and to always always call upon your own knowing.
• 1:53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Your own, you guys are so good at this, both of you, and research, you know, Cena, you you really excel at that, right?
• 1:53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and to be be discerning about that and be like, if it if it doesn't feel right, or it doesn't smell right, or it doesn't resonate, um, or if you wonder how did this person, you know, suddenly go from like nobody to like, oh, all of a sudden there's somebody.
• 1:54:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think it's unwise to question that at the very least, right?
• 1:54:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and ask yourself why.
• 1:54:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's something I thought was very interesting as I've been kind of doing more exploration into this space.
• 1:54:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and as I shared with you, Joel and I have been censored several times on at least two different platforms, you know, myself on three different platforms.
• 1:54:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then you see these other people who are, it's almost like they have just wings, they're untouchable, you know?
• 1:54:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I've wondered like, what's the difference?
• 1:54:36
  SPEAKER_02: How are how are these people flying high?
• 1:54:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we're just honestly telling the truth.
• 1:54:40
  SPEAKER_02: We're citing studies, like it's we're not making this stuff up.
• 1:54:44
  SPEAKER_02: What's the difference?
• 1:54:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why are we getting targeted?
• 1:54:46
  SPEAKER_02: I have lots of friends who've been targeted on their social media platforms just for talking about things as simple as like vitamin D and their algorithm changes, and it's really significant because it's it's their financial viability, that's how they're supporting their family.
• 1:55:04
  SPEAKER_02: And like in a moment, it could be taken from them.
• 1:55:06
  SPEAKER_02: Joel and I have talked on this podcast before about when we learn that social uh media influencers um can be bought off and that they're getting paid by big pharma or big food, and they're not always disclosing that um that income, but people trust them.
• 1:55:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it is um, I don't think a lot of people realize, and I don't even fully realize, but I don't think a lot of people maybe even think about it that just like you have political candidates that people get behind and they donate a lot of money and they're trying to prop them up, maybe even use them as puppets, you know.
• 1:55:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the same or similar thing is probably happening, you know, on social media.
• 1:55:53
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, these influencers and food advocates, I mean, would you say that that's a possibility?
• 1:56:00
  SPEAKER_02: I would, yes.
• 1:56:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:56:04
  SPEAKER_02: Short mind.
• 1:56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Short answer.
• 1:56:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and the and just to add to that, it's not always financial, it can be financial.
• 1:56:15
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen influencers just be influenced, if you will, to achieve their status um by having a bigger platform, you know.
• 1:56:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I've seen um activists um skyrocket, if you will, by just um advocating for things that are very safe, you know, and fit in with the larger narrative without challenging the system too much and and going for like the root cause of things, like GMOs.
• 1:56:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you you know that if a person is tapping into sort of that root cause of something, like glyphosate, like GMOs, that make this entire processed food system possible, right?
• 1:57:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's the the processed food industry, yes, would collapse without glyphosate and GMOs.
• 1:57:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that should tell you something that if we have, you know, I think that Bobby sort of gave us a gift in that.
• 1:57:20
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people say, why did he endorse this?
• 1:57:23
  SPEAKER_01: But also embedded in those comments, he said 80% would collapse.
• 1:57:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, to me, that should tell us as as eaters and as citizens something that that's we're just shoveling garbage into our bodies and our children, right?
• 1:57:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because the GMO system, a lot of people don't look very closely, they just see glyphosate as a a toxin or you know, an herbicide, right?
• 1:57:57
  SPEAKER_01: A pesticide.
• 1:57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they don't understand necessarily like that it's systemically damaging.
• 1:58:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's sprayed on half of our agricultural lands, like 200 million acres.
• 1:58:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and it like how it impacts the microbiome of the soil, it chelates the minerals, which makes plants planted in that soil, you know, sort of useless.
• 1:58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you planted, if I went along and I just went out, you know, half a mile from here, and you know, decided I wasn't going to plant corn in that field anymore, and I just said, no, I'm not gonna do corn, and I started to plant heirloom seeds, they wouldn't make it because there's the the microbiome, or excuse me, the mic, the ecology of the soil is not there.
• 1:58:47
  SPEAKER_01: The microbes are not there, and so you'd have you could you can remediate that soil, but a lot of people are sort of ignorant, if you will, um, and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but they're just not aware of how you know the beauty, if you will, I say the sheer magic of nature and of life and of biology.
• 1:59:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we're not aware of those things, and we then we don't appreciate, you know, how really important it is to to protect it and to get our food from that and engage in that system, and so that's why I really feel like we need more regionalized and localized food systems because that because then we engage more.
• 1:59:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't just get more nutritious food, we get there's so much benefit, right?
• 1:59:38
  SPEAKER_01: We get the pleasure of the food, we get the pleasure of growing the food, we get the pleasure of connecting with the people that grow our food.
• 1:59:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like all of it's like one of my all-time favorite and most fulfilling things to go to the farmer's market, you know, where I live in Colorado and engage with those organic, regenerative, biodynamic farmers who have a love of what they do.
• 2:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: That alone is so fulfilling, right?
• 2:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then sharing that food with people is insanely fulfilling.
• 2:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and when we get out of that system, now we're dependent on influencers, we're dependent on government, we're dependent on policies, we're you know, doing that whack-a-mole game, right?
• 2:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: Of trying to make that system that, and it just it can't be, it won't be, it isn't it's not intended to be.
• 2:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's my humble opinion.
• 2:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that that's that's fair, and um, yeah, we're about out of time here, but I think I think that um to take a little bit of a harder line on it uh um there's a time there's a time here um to say that our food system would collapse without GMOs and glyphosate, it would only collapse if we eliminated them next week.
• 2:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: But if we had if we had a three-year phase out, it would not collapse.
• 2:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is a nuance that's not being addressed in the conversation.
• 2:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I wish I wish it had been.
• 2:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I wish that again, this the overall um outcome, it seems, of this whole thing has been to to um to create buy-in, to, to get cultural embrace of the necessity of glyphosate.
• 2:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that is patently untrue.
• 2:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, half of what glyphosate goes on, we don't even need.
• 2:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: Half of our corn doesn't even go is isn't even food.
• 2:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: Half of our soybeans aren't even food or they're all exported.
• 2:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you know, this this notion that it's uh it's necessary, and I would say it's fine for the processed food industry to collapse.
• 2:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: That would be my I I I'd be fine if McDonald's went out of business tomorrow.
• 2:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: That would suit me fine.
• 2:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and nobody's gonna starve if they do.
• 2:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know, and you know, I'm sure, thousands and thousands of farmers who are desperate for one more customer, one more, one more sale that would let them quit their town job and farm full-time or you know, that sort of thing.
• 2:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think I think the the power of grassroots uh biological farmers to step up and meet the demand.
• 2:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: Might not be able to do it in a week.
• 2:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you what, you get you give us about two or three years and and we could absolutely completely completely um replace the chemical industrial complex.
• 2:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: A thousand percent.
• 2:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: We could we could say even, Joel, that imagine if the you know the USDA that we had envisioned as a regenerative, organic, you know, biological farming community had come together, right?
• 2:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: To you know, if that had been realized instead of those positions going to, you know, political friends, yeah.
• 2:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um we I think we'd be well on our way by now.
• 2:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I couldn't couldn't agree more.
• 2:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: Couldn't agree more.
• 2:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: Can I ask one more question?
• 2:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: Piggybacking on this.
• 2:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned that things are intentional, and in talking about, you know, you can transition away from these commodity row crops, you know, GMO glyphosate tolerant row row crops and toward regenerative ag in about three years.
• 2:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: Is that even is that a pipe dream?
• 2:04:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something that the administration politicians would ever really consider even doing?
• 2:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what I mean?
• 2:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, because it doesn't seem like it.
• 2:04:15
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like they they did political favors to appoint those people, you know, discarding what what we wanted.
• 2:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now we have this executive order, which basically enshrines glyphosate as part of our national defense.
• 2:04:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's crazy to me.
• 2:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so is this something that would actually should people hold their breath thinking that at a federal level, this phase in transition away from commodity craps would ever happen?
• 2:04:47
  SPEAKER_02: Or should we just start trying to do stuff in our own backyards?
• 2:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because now we still have that farm bill coming through at the federal level, where even if this, you know, let's say another president comes in and wipes out this executive order, now we've got that federal farm bill coming back with the pesticide liability shield again, and they're trying to take away our ability at the local level to fight back against glyphosate.
• 2:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is one to do, Lisa?
• 2:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: I is number one, is this a pipe dream that we could transition on the federal level?
• 2:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: Are they being intentional to not let us do that?
• 2:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: And number two, where do we go from here as consumers?
• 2:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I yeah, and I'm glad you asked that follow-up question.
• 2:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you.
• 2:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I I guess I would say that it kind of gets back to, you know, that that love affair, you know, that disillusionment, you know, that I think we have.
• 2:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that that there's something or someone coming along, you know, to to save us.
• 2:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's sort of the challenge, um, you know, just because of how I think the the the human psyche works, right?
• 2:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: We have a we have a love affair with heroes and the whole hero, villain or victim story.
• 2:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as long as we, you know, entertain that, we're always going to expect something outside of us, bigger than us, if you will, to to save us, you know, from our you know, our own conditions.
• 2:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, that that's just really isn't how it works, and we don't really have any evidence that it does, you know.
• 2:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's that's well said.
• 2:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, I I I I firmly believe, you know, I've sort of I've really come full circle, you know, in in that way.
• 2:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: I started out as as a as a very local, you know, educator, I guess, an advocate.
• 2:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: I started a slow food group in my in my town.
• 2:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: That didn't start out as slow food, it just started out as I want to show my community how much more amazing local food is when it's not, you know, bathed in pesticides.
• 2:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I started.
• 2:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: I just stepped up and did it.
• 2:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then that led to me very quickly meeting other people, you know, who were also, you know, interested in that, if you will.
• 2:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then from there, you know, it just it just kept growing.
• 2:07:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I connected with a farmer, Paul Willis, who started to teach Iowa farmers how to um keep their pigs on pasture.
• 2:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, he connected with Nyman Ranch.
• 2:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then that grew.
• 2:07:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's all it all that all started just very, very local, right?
• 2:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and people connecting with people, and I think that's still how it is.
• 2:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think it's any different.
• 2:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that we can't, you know, have interstate commerce and you know, all of that.
• 2:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess what I'm saying is for the things that we really rely upon in life, which is our food, I think that the real security, if you will, isn't in glyphosate and GMOs, you know, the real security is in our communities, in our, you know, farmers like Joel, in, you know, active moms like you, Cena.
• 2:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, connecting and building those systems that that we that we truly have control over with you well, if you will.
• 2:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's our democracy, you know.
• 2:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's our that's our savior.
• 2:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's us.
• 2:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great way to to end, Lisa.
• 2:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was uh that was a good good closer.
• 2:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we always like to ask a question of our listeners.
• 2:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Cena, my my um uh question is now that we've had this discussion, um how has this whole episode with the executive order, with RFK Jr.'s response, how has this affected your view of the Maha movement?
• 2:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are you flat?
• 2:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: Are you up?
• 2:09:12
  SPEAKER_00: Are you down?
• 2:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what's your what's your sense?
• 2:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think we are in the Maha movement right now uh as a result of of all this that's happened?
• 2:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, everyone, for joining us on another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 2:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Lisa, uh, truly for um being able to give a few us a few minutes to get your insight.
• 2:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you for fighting the good fight, for all that you've done, for your leadership.
• 2:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: We honor you, we appreciate you, and uh we look forward to continuing to work with you in the future and uh trust that you will make bigger waves than you imagined uh in the future toward uh truth and nobility and sacredness.
• 2:09:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, everyone, for joining us on another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 2:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: We'll look forward to visiting with you again next week.