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What No One Is Saying About Mental Health Reform with BRANDY PRICE KLINGMAN · Finding New Waters

0:00
If you would have told me 20 years ago that I'd be surrounded
0:02
by a bunch of guys in recovery, lots of who have felonies, I
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would have said there's no way because it's just not how I
0:10
envisioned my professional career.
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But I couldn't imagine another place to be at this point.
0:17
Welcome back to another episode of Finding New Waters.
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My name is Bea Reeves. I'm the Director of Business
0:22
Development here at New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, NC, and got
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a very special guest today, Brandy Klingman.
0:30
And I'm gonna try to give a quick synopsis of what she does,
0:34
which is a lot. So she is the CEO of Saint
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Christopher's, which is an all men's treatment center in Baton
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Rouge, LA. She is also in private practice
0:44
as a psychotherapist. She also works on policy reform,
0:49
traveling back and forth from Louisiana to DC, and is also in
0:54
the process of opening up a women's treatment center, also
0:57
in Louisiana but not in Baton Rouge.
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Did I get that right? Yeah, I think my middle name
1:01
here is just also, yeah. I hear you.
1:05
Well, cool. Well, thank you so much for
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being here. And the reason you're here is I
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just want to mention to give a shout out to our friend Hope
1:14
Aldred, who was a guest on the podcast and is a good friend.
1:19
And about 10 days ago, put us on a group text and said, you got
1:24
to have Brandy on. I said, all right, and you were
1:26
on vacation. And then you hadn't been back
1:29
for 15 minutes and she had said something about it again.
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I said, all right, you, let's do it.
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And you were you were down. So thank you.
1:35
Yeah, I'm, I'm really excited. I love hope, and I'm just
1:37
trusting that, you know, she's got the best intentions.
1:40
And I got to listen to a podcast earlier today and it was so
1:43
good. It was so good.
1:45
So I'm excited to do it. Well, thank you.
1:47
We're very lucky that we get great people on here and guests
1:51
and people who are doing great work.
1:52
And we have an amazing producer, Solomon.
1:54
So all I do is just sit here and basically listen.
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So that so I don't, you know, not that you were giving me
1:59
credit, but I certainly don't deserve any.
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So yeah, tell us kind of go down the list.
2:04
Let's start with Saint Christopher's.
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Tell us about that, and then we'll go down the list of all
2:07
the stuff you do. Missus also Miss also.
2:12
Saint Christopher's is an all male facility.
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It's been around since the late 90s.
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It's been a long time. It's a long term facility so we
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believe in long term treatment. People are with us on average
2:24
around 8 months. So it's not someone's first go
2:27
into treatment but it it should be their last round of
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treatment. We really, the goal is to this
2:31
to be your last stop into addiction and then move into a
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life of recovery. And so we have a real strong
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brotherhood out here in Baton Rouge, LA, of sober guys from
2:41
all over the country. You wouldn't believe it.
2:43
And if you would have told me 20 years ago that I'd be surrounded
2:46
by a bunch of guys in recovery, lots of who have felonies, I
2:50
would have said there's no way because it's just not how I
2:54
envisioned my professional career.
2:56
But I couldn't imagine another place to be at this point.
2:59
And then the also, I'm a clinician.
3:03
I'm not in recovery. That's a pretty unique thing in
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my world to be someone as CEO and a clinician who's not in
3:10
recovery. And the guys give me Flack about
3:13
it sometimes, you know, but it's OK.
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And then we're I'd. So I do have a little small
3:19
private practice. I see people occasionally.
3:21
I keep my license up to date. I'm very involved in the, in the
3:25
clinical treatment of our guys. So about 15 years ago, I, I got
3:32
in touch with Dwayne. I've been friends with Dwayne,
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the previous owner of Saint Chris for a long time.
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And it was a hardcore 12 step program in which we still are.
3:40
We still have a lot of hardcore 12 step aspects.
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But I just was, you know, adding my clinical 2 cents when he
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didn't ask for it and just kept getting that until somehow I am
3:50
now the owner of Saint Chris. And we have a lot more clinical
3:55
milieu with us, like a lot more clinical stuff that we do in our
3:58
program now. So that's kind of how the
4:01
clinical part came into St. Chris.
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And then I still have a practice that I'll see people I'll
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consult all around the country, have patients all over that I'll
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consult with or assess and refer to treatment.
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And I was doing a lot of that up in DC because of my circles
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being up in DC talking about policy.
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A lot of people are like, hey, while you're up here, do you
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mind talking to so and so and so?
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That's kind of how I've been in the circles up there for a
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while. That's also what so when you're
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up in DC working on policy, you know, without giving us giving
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us the way that any secrets or what you can't talk about, but
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what, what are you doing? Yeah, it's, it's so it's not top
4:40
seek, most of it's not top secret.
4:42
It's, it's about policies that affect you and I, you know, like
4:45
people on the planet and anyone with mental health or substance
4:49
use. If my opinion is that if there's
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going to be a decision made about mental health or substance
4:56
abuse treatment, we need a voice in the room.
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And so whether I'm invited or not invited, I like to be a
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voice in the room. I like to be at the table
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discussing what I think is important.
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So everything from way back when mental health parity, we, we
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were champions of that and we were supporting that the state
5:15
level and up at the federal level, saying that mental health
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and substance use, even though at the time they were two
5:22
different diagnosis, we were saying in at the state and the
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federal level that they're the same and that they need to be
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treated as equal to medical ailments like cancer or
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diabetes, you know, And so we were advocating and pushing for
5:36
that through the Obama administration.
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And we've been since then advocating and pushing and we'll
5:41
push with senators and we'll join support, like and support
5:44
senators and representatives and administrations, president
5:48
administrations and, and we'll also push back when we need to
5:52
saying like, no, we disagree with this policy and we, we
5:55
think these revisions would be best, you know?
5:58
Let me ask you this since for as far as we, as far as I know,
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this is the first time we've had someone openly in 12 step
6:06
recovery in a cabinet position with RFK.
6:09
Junior is the secretary of the Department of Home Health and
6:13
Human Services. His that in the short time that
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he's been in that position, has that opened any doors?
6:18
Has it helped at all from you know what you're up to?
6:22
I'll say it has been kind of helpful in certain ways.
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So I would say, again, that's openly.
6:28
There's been others that haven't been so open about their
6:31
recovery. But yeah, he's openly in
6:33
recovery. I'll say he's open to
6:35
conversations and he's open to having new ideas in the room in
6:40
ways that we were struggling with a little bit before at
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times, different administrations we've struggled with, whereas he
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seems to be pretty open to that. I think there's struggles in
6:50
every administration regardless, you know, but I have been
6:54
impressed. You know, I was up there during
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the inauguration time for meetings and, and while there we
7:03
were discussing lots of discussions about who was taking
7:05
what cabinet position. And so again, I'm one of my
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voice in in the mix of those positions that would affect us.
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And he was willing to have meetings and I thought that was
7:14
really good. That's cool.
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I mean, without this being a political statement, I just
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think it's really cool that we have somebody who's, you know,
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openly clean and sober through the 12 steps, who's been clean
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and sober for 40 years in that position.
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So it can't. It can't hurt, I would hope.
7:29
Right, right. It is helpful.
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It was funny because you know who he's good friends with it.
7:33
That's also identifies as a person in recovery as as Mike
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Tyson was around during that time.
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And so one of their handlers got me into a meeting with the
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Mandela family. And then they said, can you talk
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to RFK and Mike Tyson next? And I was like such a weird
7:50
combination, but sure, you know, yes.
7:54
Yeah, I from from the little I know, I think RFK Junior's
7:58
recovery might be a little bit built on a little bit of a
8:00
stronger foundation. But hey, you know, but but the
8:04
fact that people are open about it and this is something that
8:06
actually comes up on this podcast frequently is just for
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me. And a lot of people agree with
8:12
this that I've had on here who are in recovery, who knowing
8:16
that celebrities who are really doing the deal clean and sober.
8:20
Knowing that was very helpful, especially in those early days,
8:22
because I would look at somebody like Robert Downey Junior, Trey
8:25
Anastasio, the lead singer Fish or you know, Richard Lewis has
8:30
even come up on here and you know, there, the list goes on
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and on. These people have everything and
8:35
they still choose to live this way.
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So that that that was super, super.
8:38
It's still helpful, but very in those early days it was very
8:41
helpful to know that. Oh, yeah.
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I think it helps take the stigma away of like having something
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disgusting or gross about you, you know, and, and that's not
8:50
what it is. It really is an ailment.
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And so seeing other people who've suffered in this way and
8:54
who choose recovery when they don't have to, they have every
8:58
opportunity to not, you know, it really makes it nice.
9:01
Yeah, it's always interesting though, how sometimes, you know,
9:03
I, I've been very sober for like 4 months and I went to go see
9:08
this guy who was a family friend, who was a headhunter
9:12
when I, you know, I've been sober for a few months, you
9:15
know, and but I hadn't gone back to work and my family was like,
9:19
what are you doing? You got to.
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And so I go meet with this guy and he's looking at my resume
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and and he's like, OK, this is interesting.
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And then he kind of looks at me. I said, and I've also been sober
9:30
for four months. You know, I guess I was
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expecting this guy to be like, Oh my God.
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Well, I've got this really even better job with double the pay
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for you with four whole months of supporting.
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But he looked at me like, I would like, you know, you'd seen
9:42
a ghost. And he said, OK, well, you have
9:46
that under control now. And I said, yeah, but but my
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point is, the people, no matter what, there are still so many
9:53
people out there who don't get it.
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And even if they do have somebody, it's unlikely that
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anybody has somebody that doesn't have that somebody
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doesn't have somebody close to them.
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A family, a friend, a friend of a friend who has some kind of,
10:06
you know, has been through something like this.
10:07
But still, people just don't. I just can't expect everybody to
10:11
get. It was a great lesson in my
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personal anonymity, as well as just another reminder that not
10:15
everybody gets it, but we're working on it.
10:18
Right, right. No, I see that a lot.
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And I think like, I see that even in DC, like people, they'll
10:23
snicker or say something. I remember there was recently
10:26
like a white pouch of cocaine found in the White House.
10:29
And they were like, oh, well, it must have been Hunter Biden.
10:35
And people were asking me this, you know, as if I'm some kind of
10:38
expert on the White House, which I'm not at all.
10:41
But I think just, you know, by proxy, they were asking me this.
10:44
And I was like, do you think Hunter Biden is the only person
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who's suing cocaine at the White House?
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Right. I was like, there's a lot of
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people in and out of there every day.
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And there's a lot of people who have serious problems and
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they're not ready to talk about it.
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And then there's also a lot of people who are in low key
11:01
recovery and aren't, aren't like outwardly talking about it up
11:04
there because there's still a lot of shame, you know, and
11:07
there's risk. Yeah.
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I mean, if nothing else, it's perceived way to be compromised
11:15
but that but that. But back to RFKI, mean, I think
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that that and, you know, I haven't heard much from him
11:21
about it since he's taken his position.
11:24
But what a great opportunity to kind of chip away at that stigma
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even more because, you know, I mean it, it is not only not only
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is it, you know, like you said, like ADSM recognized a disease,
11:38
but also I mean, the Pi trust people I know who are in 12 step
11:41
recovery more than anybody in the world.
11:44
That's the irony, you know? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I think so.
11:48
How did you so? But go ahead.
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I think whenever I, whenever I tell people what I do, most of
11:55
my peers, you know, are more academic and more political or
11:58
whatever. And I'm talking to a lot of
12:00
them, they have no idea about this whole other world.
12:03
And that's the thing I say consistently over and over about
12:06
people in recovery is that people who are working a program
12:10
are the most open and you can confront and you can discuss
12:14
disagreements and and be honest with them.
12:18
I think it's something that is very different from the non
12:22
recovery people, the normies, you know, like normies, you
12:26
don't, you don't confront, you don't say things straightforward
12:29
to someone's face. You know you're going to talk
12:30
about that later when they walk out.
12:33
Whereas in working with this industry and working with so
12:36
many people in recovery, it's just such a freedom that comes
12:40
with this population. Absolutely, and it's so
12:42
refreshing to, you know, we get in heated discussions, whether
12:47
it's at work, about work or, or in my personal life, but just to
12:53
be able to make a spot amend on, you know, and say, you know
12:56
what, I was out of line. I'm really sorry.
12:58
I hope that won't happen again. What else can do to make it
13:00
right or when when I on the the receiving end of of an amend, I
13:04
mean it. All this stuff was just
13:06
completely foreign to me. You know, my whole life it was
13:09
like, oh, sorry. And, you know, but you still do
13:10
the same thing a million times and just say I'm sorry and make
13:13
no effort to, you know, correct it.
13:16
But yeah, we're dealing with people who are in recovery.
13:18
And it's not, you know, like you're, you know, you clearly
13:21
get it and act accordingly. And you don't need, you didn't
13:24
need to go, you know, to the depths of addiction or
13:27
alcoholism to get that kind of way of living, you know, which
13:30
is, you know, another thing, why hope was such a great example of
13:34
that too, about, you know, like this is sort of off topic, but
13:37
you know, and I know you deal with lots of families and you
13:40
say even, you know, when you're going to DC, they're like, Hey,
13:42
while you're here, talk to this person.
13:44
And and you know, The funny thing is the families always or
13:48
at first, a lot of them, I know mine did.
13:50
And families I talk to all the time when you when we suggest
13:54
they have their own form of recovery, whether it's through
13:56
Al Anon or going to therapy or group or the family program at
14:00
different treatment centers. A lot of times the reaction is
14:03
what? Wait a minute, like I'm not the
14:05
one who was do I'm not the alcoholic here.
14:08
Why am I being punished? But The thing is, it's a it's a
14:13
way for them to get their own serenity and freedom without
14:15
having to, you know, go to hit a bottom through drugs and
14:19
alcohol. Right, right.
14:20
And I think it's funny whenever they'll say these things to me
14:23
in bold proclamations. We're not, we're not the one.
14:27
It's not us. Fix this person.
14:29
And I'm like, just I'm a statistics person.
14:32
And statistically, the odds for your loved one doing better will
14:35
improve dramatically if if you are doing your own work, you
14:39
know, so if nothing else, if you're just doing it to, to
14:42
cross a box off as done, let's just get yourself into some
14:45
treatment and get yourself some help.
14:47
And in the end, they love it like they never are Family
14:51
alumni. They they stay forever.
14:52
They've been there for years. I know they're meeting tonight
14:55
on Zoom. That's awesome.
14:59
So Saint Christopher's, affectionately known as St.
15:02
Chris, is the is the namesake from the patron St. of Safe
15:06
Travel. Is that what that's from?
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So, yeah, I he's also the the Saint of lost and and wandering.
15:14
And so that's what Dwayne named it after.
15:18
I wouldn't, it's, it's difficult because Louisiana is a high
15:21
Catholic state, you know, and so people will often say like, is
15:26
it because you're a Catholic facility?
15:27
And, and that's not it. We're not that.
15:30
But the name is of Catholic origin, about the patron St. of
15:33
the Lost and Wandering. Yeah, I love that name because I
15:37
mean, I was thinking about it in a bit of a different context,
15:39
but it still made sense to me. And So what?
15:43
So you did you go to school knowing you wanted to work in
15:48
behavioral health and addiction? Or how did all this happen?
15:51
No, like I, I knew I like psychology.
15:54
I started liking like serial killers when I was little and I
15:57
was like, oh, what are these psychos?
15:59
Like I want to study these guys. And I like family dynamics.
16:04
I like human behavior. I'm a real nerd nerd.
16:07
So anything that was nerdy, you can count me in for that.
16:10
And so I really liked all of that and I started in private
16:15
practice and, and mental health more than addiction and then
16:19
started a dual diagnosis program in Baton Rouge and I was like,
16:22
well, this is really it. You know, I was like, well, what
16:24
Dwayne's doing this let me work with Dwayne and, and give him
16:26
some more clinical at Saint Chris.
16:29
And, and then I just really didn't like that addiction
16:33
patients were getting scraps. Like I just felt it was unjust
16:37
and they weren't getting good science.
16:38
The research wasn't there and they needed more attention.
16:42
And I'm an underdog girl. So I was like, well, you need,
16:45
you need a fighter. And I'm a fighter and and I'm an
16:48
excellent clinician. And so let me lend my skills to
16:51
this group that needed what I thought back then about, you
16:54
know, 20 years ago now, I thought you needed some support.
16:57
And so I jumped on. And it was funny because in the
17:00
beginning I met, I never saw Dwayne in Louisiana, only saw
17:03
him out of state at these different things with Gary and
17:06
Miles and all the guys, all the old guys right there, all the
17:10
old timer guys. I say old timers.
17:12
I know they're not far from my age, but you know, the guys in
17:14
the industry forever. And so they would all be hanging
17:17
out and I'd be like, hello, I'm here.
17:19
I'm not in recovery. And just like, can I hang out
17:22
with y'all, John Southworth? And they would all share their
17:25
numbers, you know, but then they'd go play golf and do their
17:28
thing. And I was like, you're going to
17:29
need me. I know that you don't think you
17:31
do, but you do. And and so I just keep popping
17:35
in over the years. And then eventually I was just
17:37
like, forget it. You need me.
17:38
I, I, you, you're a bunch of messes.
17:41
Like let me help you out. And so I just kind of jumped in.
17:45
Yeah. Well, when you mentioned that
17:47
adding that clinical component to a hardcore 1212 step program,
17:51
I, I went to what would be considered a hardcore 12 step
17:55
program too. And I love that I didn't know
17:58
anything about anything until all of a sudden I was there.
18:01
But I, when I think back, I mean, my, my primary counselor
18:06
was also a humongous part of the, of that spiritual
18:11
experience I had that led to, you know, the beginnings of a
18:14
spiritual awakening of the educational variety.
18:16
And the guy, you know, he said something to me, you know, one
18:19
time that my dad had just died right before I got sober.
18:23
And his illness and death was a big part of like the
18:27
acceleration that led to it and all that.
18:30
And I was sitting in his office one day and he was a great,
18:33
great therapist. It still is.
18:35
And he was, but he was a hardcore guy, New York guy.
18:37
And, and I was sitting beside him, we were doing a little bit
18:40
of work. It wasn't step work, but it was
18:42
some kind of workbook stuff. And he, it was talking, we were
18:45
talking about regrets and stuff. I mean, I was pretty early and
18:47
probably like less than two weeks in and I wrote down my dad
18:51
died thinking I was a drug addict.
18:54
And he got up beside me and he put his arm around me and he
18:57
said, no, man, no, you got to change that.
19:00
And I thought he was about to say he died knowing you were a
19:03
great kid and you were going to end up, you know, you get your
19:05
life together. He said he died knowing you're a
19:08
drug addict. I was like, Oh my God.
19:10
But but without that tough love from a clinical perspective, I I
19:17
needed that. It was exactly what I needed
19:19
that day. And I don't know if I would have
19:21
gotten that, you know, without that clinician being there at
19:24
exactly the right time for me. Yeah, I think it's important.
19:28
I, I think what I saw was an industry that had great bones.
19:34
I saw also some large gaps in the, you know, so like for
19:38
instance, every patient at the time was being, and maybe you
19:41
too were being diagnosed as antisocial when he came in the
19:44
door and antisocial personality disorder.
19:47
And, and First off, you know, that's, that's more rare than we
19:50
think. And even the narcissistic
19:52
personality disorder at the time, it was a fatalistic
19:56
diagnosis. It was there's nothing to be
19:58
done about this. You're a narcissist or you're
20:00
anti soy shoulder. But really what it was is you
20:02
just had some maladaptive coping mechanisms.
20:05
I have them too, you know, mine are just unfortunately, it's
20:10
just being extremely neurotic and working through.
20:13
Let me out work you in my in my own coping mechanisms, you know?
20:18
But yours happened to be drugs or alcohol.
20:20
And so it doesn't, it didn't mean that you were antisocial or
20:23
a narcissist. And and I didn't like the idea
20:26
that we had an entire generation of people because what we were
20:30
seeing on on the epidemiology side of it, we were seeing
20:34
generations of addiction coming. And with the legalization of
20:37
marijuana and the synthetic population that was out there
20:41
coming for you, and we saw the heroin increasing due to the
20:44
opiates, we saw a generation of affliction coming.
20:48
And I just thought like, we're going to really struggle when
20:50
all these people are diagnosed antisocial.
20:52
And then it's like a self fulfilling prophecy that there,
20:55
there there's no cure for you, there's no cure for personality
20:58
disorders. And this is what you'll be
21:00
forever. And what your job is, is just to
21:02
tuck it in as best you can and get through life.
21:05
And, and I really didn't like that message.
21:07
And so I felt responsible as part of like, a solution and
21:11
like a voice of saying, no, that's not it, you know?
21:14
That's really interesting. I didn't know that that was kind
21:17
of what everybody was relegated to and until recently.
21:21
I mean, I, I see how and I hear that, you know, that there is no
21:24
cure for narcissism and all that.
21:26
And but you know, maybe think about just, I could see how that
21:30
would be the thing. All right, well, these people
21:32
are selfish and self-centered to the extreme, which it tells us
21:34
in 12 step literature, which is true, but but we're not stuck
21:39
there. We just know that that is kind
21:41
of our can be a default. But when we work on ourselves,
21:44
then we we overcome being selfish and self-centered in the
21:47
dream through through service and and, you know, committing to
21:52
working the 12 steps. But that.
21:53
But I remember. I'm sure you're familiar with
21:55
that pamphlet from Hazleton called King Baby.
21:59
Yeah. Oh yeah, I love King baby.
22:00
It's my. Favorite.
22:01
Yeah, well, I, I love it now. When I read it, I was like, Oh
22:04
my God, this is. I'm so selfish.
22:07
It's about me. But I mean, it was, yeah.
22:11
Yeah, that's really interesting. And yeah, I mean, good on you
22:14
for that. I mean, I the, the stigma, I
22:19
mean, I do, I mean just in my short time of, of being sober,
22:22
just over 7 years, I mean, I've definitely seen it come a long
22:25
way. And and an example of it is what
22:27
we just talked about with RFK being a, you know, a openly
22:30
clean and sober guy of 40 plus years now.
22:33
But where else are you seeing it?
22:35
Where you know where not just the stigma, but what what needs
22:39
work. Well, I mean, I think a lot of
22:42
work needs to happen at what I like.
22:44
I'll say, let me start with what I like seeing.
22:46
So this generation of young people coming up are, are so
22:50
embracing of this discussion. They're embracing discussions
22:53
about addiction or substance use disorders.
22:56
They're embracing mental health. They talk about it constantly.
22:58
I don't know if you've interviewed anyone lately.
23:01
You know, they interview their first thing is, Oh, I want to
23:04
work in mental health because I have mental health and it's kind
23:06
of like takes me a second, even though I'm grateful that they're
23:09
honest, you know, and, and sure, who doesn't, you know, but just
23:13
being in my 40s, that's not how we talked about things back
23:16
then, you know, so that's a, that's a positive seeing them
23:21
embrace and like the tolerance for all of it.
23:24
I, I think we get a little kooky with some of the over diagnosis
23:27
and pathologizing things, you know, like with, I don't know if
23:31
you have TikTok. I love TikTok.
23:33
I'm so into TikTok and, and you know, they'll say, oh, well, if
23:38
you do this, then you're autistic, you do this, you're a
23:42
narcissist and you know, it's just you can fall down a rabbit
23:44
hole. And so they often pathologize
23:47
too quickly. But that comes with youth, you
23:49
know, of saying I do something and therefore I am this.
23:52
And that's probably not the truth.
23:55
But policy wise, what I think we are in a really risky kind of
23:59
area because we have a lot of synthetic influence on our
24:05
streets. And so the smarter we become
24:09
about drugs and drug culture, so has the world.
24:12
And there is a lot of influence from foreign governments who are
24:16
pushing these synthetic products into our streets.
24:19
And so to me that is a big worry.
24:22
I'm really worried about that. And so I'm spending a lot of
24:25
time and effort in supporting litigation or policy or
24:30
legislation that that confines this.
24:33
And it's not that I'm a joy snatcher.
24:36
Like if you want to be a Delta consumer, OK, but you're not
24:41
consuming knowingly yet because it's not regulated.
24:44
So you don't know what you're getting.
24:46
And unfortunately what you are missing is the foreign influence
24:49
that's kind of coming in and serving what you think might be
24:52
one thing and it could be something completely different.
24:55
And the example I give a lot of times I do this talk all over
24:58
the country is to say, like the gas station hot dog has more
25:02
regulations. You're safer eating that gas
25:04
station hot dog, which nobody really wants to eat, you know,
25:07
no sober person. But then taking one of those
25:12
gummies or the Kratoms or whatever, all of that is
25:15
synthesized, it's all sent overseas.
25:18
A lot of it comes illegally into the country, even though it's
25:22
it's sold on a gas station self shelf to make it look like it is
25:25
safe. Same with even the the THC
25:30
waters and all that kind of stuff.
25:31
So I'm very interested in policy around that kind of stuff right
25:34
now. Also, I'm very interested in any
25:37
kind of policy that limits or regulates treatment options for
25:41
people in recovery. So there's a lot of, there's a
25:45
lot of prevention dollars that go out and there's a lot of
25:48
treatment dollars that go out every year.
25:49
And we just had that large, massive opioid settlement and
25:54
you know, without giving any like the things away, just the
25:58
money wasn't it didn't go to what I believe it should have
26:01
gone to. And so treatment dollars.
26:03
Not a surprise. Just went away, you know, to
26:06
different departments. So like you're probably your
26:08
local police got a lot of those treatment dollars.
26:11
And it's not that police don't need dollars, that's regardless
26:14
of the conversation, but it's that it's that those dollars
26:18
were supposed to go to treatment and and they didn't.
26:21
And there's a lot of people who need that availability.
26:24
Interesting what I got a specific question about on the
26:28
on that subject. We were just we were just
26:29
talking about. But what's up with Kratom?
26:32
Yeah, so it's a synthetic product, you know, and, and
26:36
you're buying it in capsules or even worse, you know, loose
26:39
powders or whatever in the gas stations.
26:41
And so each state is going about trying to make it illegal in
26:45
their states. So our state, our parishes,
26:48
because we're in Louisiana parish rather than county, each
26:51
of our parishes is kind of fighting it right now.
26:53
We had a we had a state regulation and then it got wiped
26:57
away because some lobbyists argued against it.
27:00
And so now our parish by parish is regulating that.
27:04
And it's happening in in North Carolina and South Carolina as
27:07
well. Good I mean it's it's we see it
27:12
more and more and it's, you know, people it's people are
27:15
really struggling and the sad I think the sad I mean the saddest
27:19
part is people who I've never heard of anybody dying from
27:22
kratom. I'm sure it's happened, but I'm
27:23
it's still part of the larger opiate use and you know, leads
27:27
to fentanyl and all all kinds of bad endings.
27:30
But what's really awful about it also is that it's got this
27:35
mystique kind of like you're talking about.
27:37
Oh, but it's, it sold at the gas station.
27:39
I mean, I, it's legal, you know, and The funny thing is when I
27:42
before I got sober, I heard about kratom and that it could
27:45
be kind of a placeholder for you and you didn't have the other
27:48
stuff. And I literally, I looked it up
27:50
on Wikipedia and the first Senate said banned in Europe and
27:55
Thailand comma. That's all I needed to read to
27:58
say, Oh, I'm going to get that. And then I'm serious.
28:02
I'm dead serious. I mean, I was telling this guy
28:04
at a meeting this the other night who just relapsed on
28:06
kratom. And but there's this disconnect
28:10
or people kind of hearing what they want to hear, seeing what
28:12
they want to see. But people think that since it's
28:16
sold over the counter that it's OK and are happy telling
28:19
themselves that. But it kind of makes no sense
28:22
because you know, alcohol is sold legally too, but right?
28:26
Right. What what I mean other than and
28:29
is there? Is there like a lobby, you know,
28:32
you mentioned the lobbyists that got this bill off the desk of
28:35
the governor of Louisiana or however it went down.
28:38
I mean, are there these dark? I mean not even dark, just open
28:41
dollars, lobby lobbying money for the kratom specific
28:46
industry. Is that a thing?
28:47
Yeah, so there are. There are.
28:49
You wouldn't be surprised. I mean, you would be surprised
28:51
because you know, I'll go for a congressional hearing thinking
28:56
like it's no big deal. I'm just coming in as the expert
29:00
to give testimony. And then I'm bombarded by these
29:03
people who are fighting to keep it on the shelf.
29:05
And I I don't, I don't know who they work for is the problem.
29:12
And so are they are they they have the disguise of where
29:18
American made company and this is local dollars.
29:21
It's a local industry, a local business.
29:23
But what we know for certain is it's not synthesized in our
29:26
state. It's it's not, nothing is being
29:29
synthesized in the states anyway.
29:31
Any states, not just Louisiana, You, you send that to China and
29:35
it's synthesized in China or in other countries too.
29:38
And, and then it's brought into our country.
29:42
And so the regulations aren't there then.
29:45
So then the FDA doesn't know what's going on.
29:47
There's not, it's not a political thing about it being
29:50
from a foreign country. It is a safety thing.
29:53
You don't have any regulations from the FDA or ATF.
29:56
No one's looked at it. And so you don't know the
29:58
potency. And then you have this whole
30:01
culture of the of the web culture like Reddit and these
30:04
kids TikTok and all that talking about kratom safe and this new
30:08
one that they're swapping out for Kratom.
30:10
You know, they're saying, well, I'm getting off of kratom, so
30:12
I'm doing H2 something and it's just some other version of
30:16
synthetic opiates. And, and they're believing what
30:20
they're hearing on the Internet because that's a downside of
30:23
this generation is the Internet is telling us the truth and it's
30:27
a dangerous risk. And and they don't realize what
30:30
risk is there. And, and I'm sure you've seen it
30:32
in your detox, like these kids coming off of kratom, it's it's
30:34
hardcore on them. Absolutely.
30:37
And I mean, and, and the insurance carriers don't like
30:42
covering it because they can sort of use the fact that
30:45
there's that it's a Gray area for their own reason to not
30:49
cover it too. Sometimes they do, but sometimes
30:51
they don't. Yeah, they can argue it and and
30:54
we have to fight, you know, and it's it, We know the risk like
30:59
you and I know the risk of, of kratom use.
31:01
And it's so hard because you, you have to champion that out
31:04
loud because there's a whole group of people who are saying
31:07
no, no, no, this is safe. This is good and I almost would
31:11
rather battle like the the ketamine or the, you know,
31:15
ayahuasca or something like that because that is more regulated
31:17
than than this and it's more monitored than this.
31:22
This is just you can get however much you want at the gas station
31:25
tomorrow. You can go back the next day,
31:26
you know. You mentioned ayahuasca.
31:29
What I mean that I don't I don't see that as I mean, I've I've
31:33
never done it, wouldn't do it, but I don't see that as
31:37
something that people could really abuse and get addicted
31:39
to. But I don't.
31:40
But when you're what you mention it like it, would that be
31:44
regulated just for safety or to keep people from like abusing
31:47
it? Well, I think, I think unless
31:50
unfortunately in this country, unless we have regulation around
31:54
something where it's being tested and it's been sold in
31:56
Walmart, it's safe enough to sell in Walmart.
32:00
And and because you have to meet so many standards for safety in
32:02
order to sell in a public place, until it's in that situation, I
32:06
think you are posed at risk. Your population is at risk for
32:10
being victimized by any other influencer.
32:14
Any person from anywhere in the world can can sell you something
32:18
and they don't have any consequence.
32:20
We can't go after them. So for instance, like the
32:23
synthetic and ayahuasca is not that like ayahuasca, people
32:27
aren't coming trying to sell people ayahuasca.
32:29
That's it's totally different, but I mean, those people having
32:32
discussions about that is much easier than having a discussion
32:36
about this because this you have so many people coming at you to
32:39
fight you from the shadows and it's just like, what are we,
32:42
what are we even talking about? This is a safety thing.
32:45
Like once you get it safe and you can sell it at a Walmart,
32:48
who am I to say do or don't do this?
32:51
That's your decision, you know, But until then, it is my job to
32:55
tell the public that they are at risk for something that is
32:58
unregulated and unsafe. And, and there are cases of
33:02
people dying, you know, unfortunately from a reaction
33:04
from kratom or from psychotic episode and suicide and from
33:07
kratom. Yeah.
33:09
Well, the the Delta that we mentioned whether it's now and
33:12
drinks and teas and you know, you know, THC Delta B or
33:16
whatever it is. I mean, we see a so many, not
33:21
not, I wouldn't say so many, but on a regular basis, people of
33:25
all ages, but mostly between 18 and 25 who have had a psychotic
33:29
break or THC or delta induced psychosis, who are completely
33:35
scrambled. And often the parents are the
33:39
ones who are, you know, cleaning up and help, you know, paying
33:42
for this and living with this. But it's so often they still
33:46
don't even see they're like, I just, I don't get it, you know,
33:49
and they, and I'm usually, you know, a little bit younger than
33:53
the parents of the, of the people I'm seeing.
33:56
But we all are kind of close enough to the same age to agree
33:59
that, you know, that weed was very different when we were
34:03
growing up than it is now. But it did this amazing job the
34:07
the marijuana lobby. And it had a little bit of a
34:10
point that it was kind of safe, you know, compared to everything
34:13
else. But then as it was becoming
34:15
unsafe and so potent, the lobbying never stopped.
34:19
And by the time it was, you know, becoming legal in in
34:21
certain states, it was like a different thing all together.
34:25
And you know, that the the legal or not, but I mean, this is a
34:30
different drug all together that is scrambling people.
34:32
And then these synthetic versions of it, or even worse is
34:35
what I what I see. That's what we see too.
34:37
And so that was a perfect example.
34:39
Like the Delta, they don't understand that it's not a safe
34:42
thing. And they're seeing it in a can
34:44
and it's sold in our grocery store, you know?
34:46
And so they're thinking again, that that means that it's safe
34:49
and regulated and it unfortunately isn't.
34:51
And so the last legislation we've we've been around this
34:55
Delta thing for the last three years.
34:56
And the first year when they were getting it authorized to be
35:00
sold in cans, you know, they're like the lobbyists for that
35:04
group came forward and said, Hey, it's not addictive, it
35:08
can't be abused and, and you won't become dependent.
35:11
OK, so, and, and all of this, Oh, and you can't get high, you
35:15
can't get high off of it. That was the and so I was like,
35:18
this is not true, you know, but I wasn't, I wasn't at the
35:22
congressional hearing. I was watching it and I was
35:24
like, wait a second, no, that's not it.
35:26
And so then last year we went up and were like, look, that's not
35:30
true. Someone just lied to a
35:32
congressional hearing, which is against the law.
35:35
You know, it is all of those things.
35:37
And there are real risk. You know, there are kids who are
35:41
becoming psychotic and I did a whole, you know, spread for
35:45
them. I went on radio show after radio
35:47
show and, and congressional hearings and this and, and
35:50
fighting the lobbyists and these warriors who are coming after
35:54
you saying you're coming after their jobs, you're coming after
35:56
their industry and this is tax dollars to your state and, and
36:00
and they're fighting. And look, I don't want to fight.
36:02
You go get it regulated and go into the weeds dispensary, then
36:07
do it that way. Don't come after our kids
36:10
without giving any warning. And one can, if you open up a
36:13
can, nobody's drinking one ounce out of a can.
36:16
The can had eight servings because it had eight oz.
36:18
So that's there's who's opening a can and drinking one ounce.
36:22
I don't even know what that even looks like.
36:24
You know, that sounds like. A big loophole.
36:27
Yeah, all these people were were fighting and and going through
36:30
the loopholes that they could go through to get these things that
36:33
and you know what, that who does that?
36:34
That's drug dealers, that's who deal with that.
36:38
That's not legitimate people who are trying to be, you know,
36:41
health and safety and Wellness for our youth.
36:43
That's not it. That's a drug dealer.
36:45
And so we need to put some precautions there.
36:48
And some of the legislators that were against us did flip and
36:52
they, they weren't happy about flipping.
36:54
But when you're telling them what they're coming after your
36:58
kids in your area and you're going to be the one calling me
37:02
in a few weeks saying so and so psychotic because it's a small
37:05
state and you're going to need help.
37:07
I know it because two of you have already called me, you
37:10
know, So if they're coming after your kids and we need to have
37:15
some kind of barrier to keep them safe.
37:17
Now adults, OK, you know, that's not that's not for me.
37:22
But at least for prevention for youth use and putting some
37:25
blockades in place until you can better regulate it, that makes
37:28
common sense. Agreed.
37:30
And just while we're on this note, for people who are
37:34
listening to this or watching this, who have, are curious
37:38
about this or especially have, you know, loved ones, kids,
37:40
whatever, who are they suspect or know or kind of dabbling in
37:43
this? Where would you recommend they
37:45
go to kind of get some real, you know, true accurate information
37:50
and kind of 1 consolidated space?
37:53
You know, I, I think NIH has some good information around the
37:56
deltas, but that's a good question.
37:59
I, I don't know other than that who has it.
38:02
Like I know I put out, I'll send it to you.
38:06
I put out a piece of, of facts to know to our legislators this
38:11
year around the Delta stuff and I'll send it to you.
38:14
It's like a 12 point sheet that just says like, did you know
38:17
this, this, this, this, this, just to give them an
38:20
understanding of the risk that they're looking at because a lot
38:22
of people, they just don't understand it.
38:24
They're not, they're they're thinking of it as the same as
38:27
alcohol and it it's just unfortunately, it's not.
38:31
It crosses the blood brain barrier immediately.
38:33
It stays in the system for over 30 days.
38:35
The propensity for psychosis, the first episode, then the
38:38
second episode prior to the age of 21, you're talking about
38:42
schizophrenia diagnosis. So you're the risk is just just
38:47
know the risk of what you're allowing your kids to do, you
38:50
know? Yeah.
38:52
Well, yeah, that's, I'm really glad to not because we know
38:54
people, we've talked about this with other guests on here, but
38:57
I've never had anybody who really has just a real kind of
39:00
inside look at what's going on and and is involved in the
39:03
policy shaping. Because it seems so obvious to
39:07
everybody who knows who works in this field or or maybe has been
39:11
through this with a loved one. But I mean, this is really
39:14
dangerous stuff and it and it's dressed up as, you know, pretty
39:18
candy and, you know, colorful fruity drinks.
39:20
And it is. It is scrambling and frying
39:24
people's brains and it's very sad.
39:27
It's so hard to treat too. I'm sure you do too.
39:29
Like when we, we get a lot of guys that come in like that and
39:33
it's heavy antipsychotics and the parents are like, well, no,
39:35
please don't do this. And, and I'm like you, this is
39:38
what you have to do for a while. It doesn't mean forever, but for
39:41
a while we do have to do these medications this way because we
39:45
are trying to give our brain some time away from that
39:47
psychosis to, to recover a bit. And they'll say, well, this
39:52
isn't it. But the neurological damage of
39:54
staying in psychosis puts your propensity of staying in
39:57
psychosis lifelong issues of episodes or constant states is
40:01
greater. So the longer that you can give
40:03
yourself, if you can give yourself six months to a year,
40:06
even if that meant you had to be on medication during that time,
40:09
that's going to give you the best chance of making it even
40:12
longer. So we're looking at neurological
40:14
impact. And I'll say the lobbyists for
40:17
the other side are also looking at that.
40:19
They, they know the science that I'm quoting and they're quoting
40:23
other research. It's not real research, but
40:25
they're quoting other things to try to counteract us.
40:27
So I know they're reading because then they are prepared
40:31
for an argument, you know? Yeah, that's an interesting
40:34
take. And God, it's, it's sad to see
40:37
that what money can buy out there.
40:39
Well, changing gears. So you're in the process of
40:42
opening about opening the women's program.
40:45
Was this going to be like a sister program to Saint Chris or
40:47
tell us about that. Yeah.
40:48
Yeah, it's like a sister program.
40:50
I have a new We added another partner in to help us with
40:54
opening up the female program. But I mean, we're so excited.
40:57
I always wanted to be with women.
40:59
You know, I didn't picture myself being with a bunch of
41:02
guys forever, but because I'm a girl's girl.
41:06
But I'm, I'm really excited. It's beautiful.
41:08
It's lots of pink and Blues and pretty colors.
41:11
St. Chris is not, you know, it's not
41:14
the Ritz. It's, it's, you know, it's just
41:16
a, it's a solid men's program. And so I'm excited about the
41:20
girls and I'm excited about having tea, you know, 2:00 on
41:25
each day and letting them have some time to be women together
41:29
and in recovery and working on their own things without any men
41:31
around. And it's, I think it's kind of
41:33
hard to find, you know, good women programs and we take
41:37
insurance. So having the ability to use
41:39
your insurance on someplace, it's just really kind of rare,
41:43
so. That's awesome.
41:44
What's it going to be called? It's called Magnolia Bell.
41:48
It was called you Bell House for a few minutes and then we found
41:50
out there's a Magnolia House in South Carolina.
41:53
And so we we switched gears. I gotcha.
41:57
Cool. And when do you?
41:58
When will you be, or are you open, or when will you be?
42:00
No, no, thanks for asking. Our grand opening is we're
42:03
having an opening CEU event on the 24th of July.
42:06
So a little frantic, and then our first patient is the 28th.
42:12
OK. Well, congratulations on that.
42:13
And you know, like I said, St. Chris, I have not been there,
42:16
but it has an amazing reputation.
42:17
You got to come down. You got to come down and hang
42:20
out and eat some crawfish. I would love to, yeah,
42:24
absolutely. Will I love?
42:26
Three hours, but it's totally worth it because you get to see
42:29
a whole different part of Louisiana and all that.
42:32
And the girls have their own apartments.
42:34
Oh cool. They'll have their own living
42:36
room and bedroom while they're in treatment.
42:38
So I think like, I think it's like it's the same bones as St.
42:42
Chris, but it's the girlier version, so.
42:46
Nice. And it sounds like you, you
42:47
know, the two things you mentioned, it sounds like you
42:49
want people to be, you know, know they're in treatment, but
42:52
also give them a taste of like of living like a, you know, like
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a like a lady. Exactly.
42:59
Exactly. I, I want them to feel like like
43:02
they are a woman of worth and in recovery and a value and there's
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so much more light to life than just just staying sober.
43:11
We have a whole life beyond that too you.
43:13
Know, I hear you absolutely well that I think that's an awesome
43:17
place to wrap it up. Where, where, how do we find
43:19
you? And how do we find Saint Chris?
43:21
And how do we find Magnolia Bell?
43:23
So we are online. It's addiction. wellness.com is
43:27
Saint Chris and Women's addiction wellness.com is the
43:30
Magnolia Bell. So we're online all over and
43:33
I'm, I'm always around at Saint Chris.
43:35
So usually I'm handling they, they call me in for the bad
43:39
guys, like someone's doing something bad.
43:41
So I'm going in and talking to the bad psychotic guys.
43:45
Oh my God, well, I would be terrified of facing you.
43:49
Well, hey, listen, I, I just can't thank you enough not only
43:52
for doing this. This has been absolutely
43:54
fascinating and, and just a great conversation And thank you
43:58
for doing it so fast. And Congrats.
44:00
And I look forward to coming down and seeing both programs
44:03
and hopefully we can we can catch up when you're in DC at
44:06
some point. I would I would love to.
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I really sincerely appreciate you having me and and I want you
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to come. Please come and I will for doing
44:14
like come be a party. I will.
44:16
I will. Thank you so much.
44:18
All right, have a great day, Brandy.
44:19
If you liked what you heard today or just want to know more,
44:22
give us a call on 9196708119 or visit us at
44:27
newwatersrecovery.com. Thank you.