Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 52 - Is Cherubim a Species or a Job?

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Ep. 52 - Is Cherubim a Species or a Job? · Martyr's Row

• 0:00
  This week on Martyrs Row, did Nimrod build the
• 0:02
  first temple to Marduk? Was Yahweh the first
• 0:05
  to sit? Are cherubim just the back of God's chair?
• 0:10
  And did they have four wings or six? Which one
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  is it? I don't know. Let's find out this week
• 0:16
  on Martyrs Row. Three, two, one. Saint Benam.
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  A prince of Assyria was in the days of the Persian
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  kings turned from the worship of idols unto the
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  faith of Christ, together with his sister Sarah
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  and many of their household. Being instructed
• 0:49
  by a holy man, they received the truth with gladness
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  and were baptized, forsaking the vanities of
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  their former life. When news reached their father,
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  the king, he was filled with wrath and pursued
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  them with armed men. Yet Benam and his companions
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  refused to deny the Lord and were taken and slain
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  for their confession of his name. Afterward,
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  as it is told, the king himself was smitten with
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  affliction and repenting, was healed through
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  the prayers of Saint Sarah, and so turned to
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  Christ. Thus Benam, though a prince in this world,
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  chose rather to be a servant of heaven. and by
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  his death bore witness that no earthly power
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  may stand against the truth of God. Anno Domini,
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  350 For centuries, travelers approaching Akkar
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  Kuf, the great ruin rising from the flatland
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  west of Baghdad, thought they were looking at
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  something far older and more infamous than a
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  Kesset monument. They thought, they had found
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  Babel. The ruin was so conspicuous, so solitary,
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  and so tower -like on the horizon that Western
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  visitors from the early modern period repeatedly
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  confused it with the Tower of Babel, long before
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  archaeology gave the site its proper name, Der
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  Karagalze, a royal city founded in the 14th century
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  BCE by Kasset king Karagalzu I. about 30 kilometers
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  west of central Baghdad. What those travelers
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  were actually seeing was a ziggurat, not a mythic
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  ruin of Genesis, but a Mesopotamian temple tower.
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  At Akkar Kuf, that ziggurat belonged to a sacred
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  complex associated with Enlil, one of the great
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  gods of Mesopotamia. Archaeological descriptions
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  of the site identify the ziggurat and its adjoining
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  temple as part of the cultic center dedicated
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  to Enlil, making the ruin not a monument to human
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  rebellion in the biblical sense, but a monumental
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  expression of ancient state religion and divine
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  kingship. That is part of why Akar Kuf held such
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  power over the imagination. It looked like the
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  sort of place where heaven and earth once met.
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  For caravan travelers and later visitors on the
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  road to Baghdad, the surviving core of the ziggurat
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  stood as a landmark, visible from afar, inviting
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  biblical speculation. But the more archaeology
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  advanced, the more the identification shifted.
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  Akar Kuf was not Babylon. It was Der Karagoltsu.
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  Its god was Enlil, not Marduk. Its builders were
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  Kasset rulers, not the builders traditionally
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  associated with Babel. So where do scholars generally
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  think Babel belongs now? Not Akarkuf, but at
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  Babylon itself, especially in connection with
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  Edomenenki, the famous Babylonian ziggurat associated
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  with Marduk. Modern reference works and mainstream
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  scholarship commonly connect the biblical Tower
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  of Babel tradition with Babylon and its temple
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  tower culture, rather than with the Kasset Ziggurat
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  near Baghdad. In that sense, the old mystery
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  has narrowed. The ruin west of Baghdad captured
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  the imagination. But the stronger historical
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  candidate for Babel is the monumental sacred.
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  architecture of Babylon in southern Mesopotamia,
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  especially Edomenenki. So, Paul, there's this
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  place outside of Baghdad, and it's a ziggurat
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  in Iraq that is associated with Enlil. That's
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  fascinating. And for a long time, people thought
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  it was the Tower of Babel. Wow. So then the thing
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  that, I mean, other than all the things that
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  I can't pronounce. It's a lot of big words. It
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  is. It's a lot of big words. The thing that I
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  found interesting is in the process of figuring
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  out what this ziggurat is outside of Baghdad,
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  you come across like a temple center for Enlil,
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  a Mesopotamian god. And then. Going back to Babylon,
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  where the god worshipped there was Marduk. Yeah.
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  So then my question in all of that is, when you
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  look at Nimrod, who is basically said to have
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  built Babylon. Yeah. Does the god Marduk, is
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  that who the Tower of Babel is built to? And
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  the reality is, this is not really a question
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  to you. It's more so a thought I've never had.
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  Yeah. That the Tower of Babel actually not being
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  in spite of Yahweh, but instead to be a temple
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  for a lesser God. Yeah, that's really interesting.
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  So then, was the Tower of Babel... actually a
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  temple that Nimrod was building or commissioned
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  to build in Babylon for Marduk. Yeah, and even
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  I guess what I think through that my first thoughts
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  are like, that seems like it would be more consistent.
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  Because yeah, when we look at especially when
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  people built towers, I can't think of a single
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  example where in ancient history where people
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  did that and it wasn't for a god. Right. Yeah,
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  that was the purpose. Like no one was ever like,
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  let me do this for myself. Correct. It was always,
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  let me do this in honor of this other thing.
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  Yes. And honestly, even looking at the language
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  of Nimrod, of him becoming a gibbereem. Yes.
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  It's like, well, that would actually make sense
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  that he would build it for the thing that's making
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  him a gibbereem. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Well, and...
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  in that idea. It's establishing that power dynamic
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  that they want. Well, and when you look at Tower
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  of Babel, which it is interesting, it's like,
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  that's why there's some discrepancy of like,
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  there is a ziggurat that people are like, that
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  used to be the Tower of Babel. Yeah. And I think
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  the one that we picture a lot of times is actually
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  the Temple to Enlil in Baghdad. Which that's
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  the one that I've seen pictures of. Right. This
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  is the Tower of Babel. Yeah. And so when you
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  said it, I was like, oh. Yeah, that's the Temple
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  to Enlil. That's fascinating. Which is, kind
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  of awesome that is cool and terrifying but yes
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  but the thing that it made me think of is like
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  i i just i think i just always think of these
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  two things separately yeah but a lot of the conversations
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  that we're having has started to blend these
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  things together in a way that is would be more
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  true to the ancient culture yeah that like if
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  you if you really think about uh nimrod and you
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  think about what he was building it never really
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  said like It wasn't like Nimrod was like, hey,
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  we need to spite Yahweh. Right. That's not really
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  what he was doing as far as like the description
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  that we're given. Right. Instead, it's like,
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  no. And they even described like, let's build
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  a tower so that all of the earth or that everybody
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  around can come and see how awesome we are. Right.
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  So it's it. And that's obviously a massive paraphrase.
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  Well, even we think it's like. A tower to reach
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  the heavens. Yes. And it's like, well, when we
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  look through what mountains often indicate in
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  those temple structures, it's like, well, it's
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  a man -made mountain where man could meet with
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  God. And a ziggurat is that. Yes. It's in plains
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  or flat lands where people don't have mountains.
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  Yeah. And they're like, well, we need to make
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  a mountain because that's where we meet with
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  God. Yes. So a tower to the heavens in the flat
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  plains. is not inviting God to come down with
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  us. It's going up to the place and then inviting
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  because we don't think that God can come all
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  the way down to the plains. Yeah, it's too far.
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  Right? So it's that idea. And the confusion of
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  it is like when there is confusion, it seems
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  to make sense that it's really like they are
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  going after the wrong thing. Yeah. So it's not
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  necessarily like, oh, no, they're going to build
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  a tower. And like Jack and the Beanstalk, come
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  up here and kill us. Right. But instead, they
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  will be ruled over. So there's mercy there. Yeah.
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  And they will be worshiping a false god. Yeah.
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  Therefore, having false knowledge that will lead
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  them away from their job description. Yes. It
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  will lead them away from who they were designed
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  to be. Yeah, because the way it describes Nimrod
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  is he's aligned himself with something other
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  than Yahweh. Right. And so then it would make
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  sense that he wants to now gain access to interact
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  with that God. Well, and it would make sense
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  that if that's the core of the Mesopotamian myths,
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  then it starting in that space makes sense. It
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  does, yeah. So the idea that the Tower of Babel
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  is actually potentially a ziggurat built. commissioned
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  by Nimrod for worship of Marduk. Yeah. Which
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  is like, that's, I've never thought of that before.
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  That's so interesting. And it would kind of make
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  sense. It would. Yeah. Especially in that area.
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  So like, yeah, I don't know. When I realized
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  that, or when I read that about the temple outside
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  of Baghdad, the Ziggurat outside of Baghdad,
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  that it being representative to Enlil, but people
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  thinking it's the Tower of Babel. And then Tower
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  of Babel, people going, no, actually that was
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  a ziggurat to Marduk. That's a historical understanding.
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  That's not the biblical understanding. But when
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  you look at the biblical narrative, it does look
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  like it's like, so we talked about this a little
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  bit, like things like Pergamum. When we did that
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  episode on Pergamum, the idea was like, there
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  was this one city that had this hub of all of
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  the temples to all the gods. Yeah. And they had
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  this massive ancient library. So if you wanted
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  knowledge, that's where you went. Yes. So making
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  a ziggurat in the middle of the plains in order
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  to draw the nations to it, it being a place of
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  worship to a creator god. would make sense of
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  why it would draw people from other nations to
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  it absolutely so it not being like a hey come
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  look at me i'm nemrod on the top of the mountain
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  come worship me it's more so like hit them thinking
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  that they are worshiping the creator god marduk
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  yes you know And it also would make sense even
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  for Nimrod. It's like, okay, well, what's his
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  reason for that? It's like, well, he's the one
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  who's in charge. Yeah. And so he also gets glory
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  because he's the one who leads people to Marduk.
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  Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's kind of interesting.
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  That's so interesting. And also thinking about,
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  I hadn't really thought about a potential temple
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  to Enlil. Yeah. But of course there were. There
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  would have to be. Yeah. And now we know where
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  one was. Yeah. Isn't that weird? That's so interesting.
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  I've never heard that before. Kind of cool. That
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  is really cool. I like that. Well, let's keep
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  going. Let's do it. Three, two, one. porcelain
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  skin and pretty things floating low on lullabies
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  harps and halos, gentle lights but scroll back
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  past the storybooks dust off all those second
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  looks First words every time they speak Do not
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  fear, but knees go weak They're not what you
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  think, not soft, not weak They burn, they stand
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  at God's command Cherubim at Eden's gate Guarding
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  life we couldn't take Flashing swords in holy
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  ground Turned the sinner trembling round Seraphim
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  with covered face Even they can't take his grace
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  Crying holy night and day As creation melts away
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  They're not what you think, not soft, not weak
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  They burn their stand at God's command. They're
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  not what you think, not soft, not weak. They
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  burn their stand at God's command. So there's
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  a lot of people in the world. More than two.
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  At least a few. Yeah. Right. And it seems to
• 16:18
  be that every time I talk to somebody about like
• 16:21
  particularly it feels like. Okay, we're like
• 16:25
  post -age of Disclosure. Yeah. Like it feels
• 16:30
  like 2026 is like the year of, what did I say?
• 16:36
  Disclosure. And it's almost like everybody's
• 16:41
  over it already. It is funny how, yeah, I think
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  a lot of people have been waiting for a lot of
• 16:46
  stuff that's come out. And then now that it's
• 16:49
  happened, they're like, okay. But it's also like
• 16:52
  fair to understand and realize that everything
• 16:55
  is curated. Yeah. In the sense that like like
• 17:00
  you don't necessarily just like open all the
• 17:03
  gates of the zoo. Yeah. You strategically unload.
• 17:06
  Yeah. Right. Yeah. So and also like hide and
• 17:11
  kill off. Yeah, absolutely. This is a gorilla
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  here. We never had a gorilla. I don't think so.
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  But one of the things that as like talking about
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  disclosure and all of that stuff, I think one
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  of the things that comes out in Christian circles
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  a lot is like, how do we categorize these things?
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  How do we make sense of them from a biblical
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  worldview? Yeah. And then even like the understanding
• 17:38
  of like, coming across in conversations people
• 17:42
  that um trying to identify certain things in
• 17:47
  categories that make sense in a christian worldview
• 17:50
  yeah and we've talked a lot about like when you
• 17:52
  build your foundation off of um like your christian
• 17:57
  foundation not off of jesus and the simplicity
• 18:01
  of the gospel and you build into it like minor
• 18:07
  conversations theologically and doctrinally um
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  then when those things get the holes poked in
• 18:14
  them the whole thing kind of falls apart yeah
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  and that's kind of a problem so really um when
• 18:22
  it comes to like age of disclosure biblical worldview
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  conversations about like humanity being created
• 18:31
  for the purpose of working and managing the earth.
• 18:37
  Like that seems to be what Genesis is laying
• 18:40
  out is like God created humans for the purpose
• 18:45
  of the earth to take care of it. We were made
• 18:48
  from it and tended to rule over it. But because
• 18:53
  of our sin and separation in relationship to
• 18:56
  God, then something else is ruling over us. And
• 19:01
  then through Jesus, we can take back rule. And
• 19:05
  overpower the spiritual forces that are ruling
• 19:10
  over us on the earth. Yeah. Yeah. So in all of
• 19:14
  that thinking, we've been talking a lot about
• 19:18
  humanity. We've talked about Adam. We talked
• 19:20
  about really what our purpose is in that. But
• 19:24
  then there's all these other beings. Yes. And
• 19:28
  all these other beings, like we don't seem to
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  have their job descriptions. In the same way
• 19:35
  that we have ours laid out, we kind of get glimpses
• 19:39
  of it here and there. And really, it seems like
• 19:43
  other writers through the scriptures are unfolding
• 19:46
  things in ways that we don't necessarily have
• 19:50
  full context to where they're getting that info
• 19:52
  from. Yeah. Yeah, true. So when we look at different
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  ones, there's what? Seraphim? Mm -hmm. Cherub?
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  Or Cherubim? Yeah. And then... Yeah. Like, that's...
• 20:06
  And then there's, like, other ones, but... Because
• 20:10
  another big one is just, like, angel as a general
• 20:12
  category. True. Or... And then we would get,
• 20:15
  like, an accuser. Yeah. Which is an interesting
• 20:19
  one. It's very interesting. Because it shows
• 20:22
  up in multiple places. Particularly Job 1. And
• 20:26
  I think part of it is how we're seeing a lot
• 20:29
  of these beings function in... Old Testament
• 20:33
  versus New Testament versus Middle Ages versus
• 20:36
  modern days is different. Sure. And I think that's
• 20:39
  part of what makes it confusing. Right. Because
• 20:42
  we're like so far removed from how the interplay
• 20:44
  is. Yeah. And even their jobs have changed. True.
• 20:48
  Like what they're supposed to do has changed.
• 20:50
  Oh, I see. And so it's like, especially like
• 20:53
  new technologies. Yeah, or even just like post
• 20:57
  -Christ versus pre -Christ. Sure. It's like a
• 20:59
  lot of things changed then. The rules are different.
• 21:02
  Yeah. And I think a lot of times we try to apply
• 21:05
  modern experience and rules to what the Old Testament
• 21:10
  says. Yeah. Okay. And we're just like, oh, but
• 21:13
  it was different then. Well, I like how like
• 21:15
  right now we're kind of blending the idea of
• 21:17
  things that are in the Bible are also actively
• 21:20
  affecting our world. So it's like. Yes. It's
• 21:23
  this blending of how the Bible adjusts and changes
• 21:28
  throughout. human history and the things that
• 21:31
  Jesus does, um, really changes like how we function
• 21:36
  on the earth. Yes. Yeah. Which, yeah, it kind
• 21:41
  of makes sense. Absolutely. Well, even to the
• 21:44
  sense of like, from the beginning we were created
• 21:48
  to be fruitful and multiply and then to rule
• 21:50
  over, um, the other creatures and created things
• 21:55
  on the earth and to manage god's good world yes
• 22:00
  right yes and so like that idea changes when
• 22:04
  we hand over dominion to other forces that weren't
• 22:10
  supposed to have dominion yeah and then those
• 22:13
  forces do things to try and um take it a step
• 22:18
  further in having their offspring um take dominion
• 22:23
  of the earth in a rightful way yeah where yeah
• 22:27
  when Jesus comes in and steps back into the space,
• 22:30
  um, all of that shifts because he resets it,
• 22:36
  but he doesn't go backwards. He goes forward.
• 22:39
  So he doesn't like, we're not trying to like
• 22:41
  go back to the garden. We're not trying to like
• 22:44
  go back and redo what, what has been done instead
• 22:49
  finishing out, um, or correcting. You know what
• 22:54
  I mean? Yes. I don't love the idea that even
• 22:57
  in things like replacement, that stuff doesn't
• 23:01
  really make sense because the gospel unfolds.
• 23:04
  Yeah. So it's not like God is ignoring time.
• 23:09
  Right. Because things are laying out in a certain
• 23:12
  way. So as they lay out, there has to be adjustments
• 23:16
  made and things finished out. and things fixed
• 23:21
  and stuff like that. That really seems to be
• 23:24
  more versus it being like, well, this is a, this
• 23:28
  is like a reversal is different because that
• 23:31
  would be like a ruling. But I think what we see
• 23:34
  a lot of unfolding is the idea of redemption.
• 23:36
  Right. Which it's like, well, that's to take
• 23:39
  back something or turn something back to what
• 23:41
  it was supposed to be. Yeah. And I think that's
• 23:44
  the timeline that we see inside of scripture.
• 23:46
  Sure. Where it's just like, well, it started
• 23:48
  as something that was how it should be. Yeah.
• 23:50
  And then it fell away. And then the Lord was
• 23:54
  like, I need to pull this back to where it was.
• 23:56
  Yeah. Or what it's supposed to be. Yeah. So,
• 23:59
  Paul, we have this like in the garden. We have
• 24:03
  this understanding now. Go back and watch previous
• 24:07
  episodes. But that Adam is made with humanity
• 24:13
  outside of the garden. Yeah. And then he specifically
• 24:16
  is brought into the garden to take care of the
• 24:18
  garden of God specifically as a human. Yeah.
• 24:22
  Yeah. And that's a unique thing because it doesn't
• 24:26
  really identify that the garden is on the earth.
• 24:29
  Right. Just in the east of Eden. Yeah. So in
• 24:34
  that way, Adam and humanity, humanity is working
• 24:38
  the earth. Adam proper with Eve are working the
• 24:43
  garden. Yes. So are there other beings in the
• 24:49
  garden? I mean, yeah. Okay. Previous episodes
• 24:53
  we've talked about this. Yes, definitely. So
• 24:56
  then if that's our job in the garden and on the
• 25:00
  earth, what are the other beings? Like we don't
• 25:04
  see seraphim in the garden, but we do see cherubim.
• 25:09
  So do the cherubim... Are they, like, what are
• 25:16
  they supposed to be doing there? Are they just
• 25:18
  hanging out? Or, so, okay. So, here's the question.
• 25:23
  Is cherubim a species? Or is it a job? Yeah,
• 25:32
  that's a great question. So, to be a cherub,
• 25:34
  is that, like, your lineage? Is it a species
• 25:40
  of being? Or... is it a job title? Yeah. And
• 25:45
  that's, it's funny cause, uh, I guess even to
• 25:48
  set this up a little bit in some ways is I think
• 25:52
  it's interesting cause I've been listening to
• 25:53
  this, uh, this new podcast recently. Okay. It's
• 25:56
  not a brand new podcast. It's just new to me.
• 25:58
  Yeah. And, uh, what is, what's interesting about
• 26:01
  it cause it's a, it's a non -Christian podcast.
• 26:03
  Okay. But it's a story podcast. Uh -oh. And it's
• 26:08
  people that are basically explaining, like, here
• 26:10
  are these unexplained or paranormal events that
• 26:13
  happened in my life. Okay. And I don't know what
• 26:15
  to do with it. And what's funny about it is because
• 26:17
  even the host is like, yeah, I don't know what
• 26:19
  to do with that. That's awesome. Like, every
• 26:21
  episode is like, here's this wild thing. Anyway,
• 26:24
  here's the next episode. It's like personal modern
• 26:30
  myth. Yeah. And what's been interesting to me
• 26:33
  is a lot of the people that share these stories,
• 26:36
  there's a good number of them that were Christians
• 26:41
  and aren't anymore. Okay. And they would say,
• 26:44
  like, I grew up this way, but I'm not that way
• 26:45
  anymore for a very various amount of reasons.
• 26:48
  Sure. But one of the things I hear a lot of times
• 26:51
  is like, well, these things would happen and
• 26:53
  there was no answers inside of the church. Yeah,
• 26:57
  you have no categories to respond to it. Yeah.
• 27:01
  And I think a lot of it is like, because we have
• 27:03
  a way that we've talked about, especially like
• 27:06
  cherubim and seraphim. Yeah. And we've created
• 27:11
  these ideas. A lot of that stemming from the
• 27:13
  Middle Ages and like medieval demonology and
• 27:16
  angelology. Right. That's a hard one. It'll get
• 27:19
  you. Yes. Angelology. It's a tough word. But
• 27:26
  it's like, okay, but is that what the Bible actually
• 27:28
  is teaching? Or is that just what we've decided
• 27:31
  it's saying? Right, right, right. And that can
• 27:34
  take us on a wild path that ends up being incompatible
• 27:37
  with experiences. Right, like do cherub have
• 27:42
  wings? Right, yeah. So according to Ezekiel,
• 27:47
  they do. Yeah. And there's like human hands on
• 27:51
  the inside of them. Right. It gets kind of weird.
• 27:54
  But they're not like... They're not like fat
• 27:58
  babies. Right. Not at all. But what's interesting
• 28:02
  about it too, which we'll kind of explore a little.
• 28:04
  The most opposite thing possible. Which the other
• 28:08
  thing we can explore a little bit is the descriptions
• 28:11
  of these things change. Okay. So they're not
• 28:14
  consistent. I have a theory about that. Yeah.
• 28:17
  And there's a few ways to take it. Yeah. But
• 28:20
  yeah, we can. Let's dive into this. Let's do
• 28:22
  it. Let's just get right to it. So is cherub
• 28:25
  a species or is it a job description? Yeah, so
• 28:30
  I think the first thing I want to look at with
• 28:33
  that is like, okay, so inside of scripture, what
• 28:34
  do they do? Yeah, that's a good place to start.
• 28:37
  So it's like, okay, what do we actually even
• 28:38
  just see them doing every time we see them? Yeah,
• 28:40
  the journalist questions. Yeah. Who, what, when,
• 28:43
  where, why? Who, what, when, where, why? We ask
• 28:46
  why a lot. So actually the first place we see
• 28:50
  them is Genesis 3 .24. Okay. Which is this is
• 28:54
  the fall of man. Right. This is the first time
• 28:57
  they're named. Yes. Yeah, that's true. It's not
• 29:00
  really the first time we see them. Because even
• 29:02
  later we see them like predating the fall. Yes.
• 29:07
  And potentially even predate. Even talking about
• 29:10
  our boy Ezekiel because he mentions like, oh
• 29:12
  no, this cherub was there before. In the garden
• 29:16
  of God on the mountain of God. Yeah. Yeah, but.
• 29:19
  It's not pre -Genesis 1. It's just in the cracks
• 29:23
  between Genesis, probably more like Genesis 2.
• 29:28
  It's something we see later in the chronology
• 29:32
  of how we've laid out the scriptures. Timeline
• 29:36
  -wise, it's before Genesis 3. Correct. But as
• 29:40
  we read it, it shows up books later. Yes. Yeah.
• 29:44
  Yeah, there's more description later. And you're
• 29:46
  like, well, where did these guys get this from?
• 29:48
  Right. Yeah. Yes. I mean, so even just taking
• 29:51
  it as scripture is laid out for us, Genesis three
• 29:56
  is the first place we actually see them named.
• 29:58
  Yes. And so what we see them doing there is they
• 30:04
  are set to guard the entrance to Eden. Yeah.
• 30:06
  So the first time we meet them, they're guardians.
• 30:09
  Yeah. Yeah. And that's pretty like clear. Oh,
• 30:13
  it's like, yeah, that's where they're flaming
• 30:15
  swords. Yeah. Or lightsabers. Yes. I mean, what?
• 30:23
  And I think it's interesting even just taking
• 30:25
  that kind of reading into like, okay, what is
• 30:28
  Eden a little bit? Yeah. It's like, well, this
• 30:31
  is God's place. Yes. This is where humanity meets
• 30:35
  God. Yes. And so now man's pushed out of God's
• 30:39
  presence. Mm -hmm. to stop them from entering
• 30:43
  again. Yes. And also to reach the tree of life.
• 30:46
  He's placed cherubim there. Yeah. So it's like,
• 30:49
  okay, so the cherubim are there to guard, to
• 30:52
  basically keep out man from the presence of God.
• 30:55
  Yeah, and it is interesting because he... Or
• 30:58
  access to God, I should say. The whole thing
• 31:00
  is like, keep them away from the tree of life
• 31:02
  that they might live forever. Yeah. Not keep
• 31:06
  them away more from the tree of the knowledge
• 31:09
  of good and evil. Right, yeah. So, yeah. Which
• 31:13
  actually, that'd be a fun episode to talk even
• 31:14
  about what that is and where that comes from.
• 31:16
  Yeah. We talked more about the tree of life.
• 31:19
  Yeah, we've talked more about that than... Yeah,
• 31:22
  trees as portals. Yes, yeah. Previous episode.
• 31:26
  See our body of work. Join the ecosphere. I love
• 31:31
  that. Yeah, it's been a while since we've talked
• 31:34
  about that. It has, yeah. But like, we are talking...
• 31:38
  a little bit more freely about things because
• 31:40
  we have hours of episodes at this point. We've
• 31:43
  set up a lot of this that, yeah, that kind of
• 31:46
  fills in the gaps. It's easier for us to talk
• 31:48
  about it, but for a new listener, you got to
• 31:50
  go back. Yeah, for sure. Sorry, you have homework.
• 31:54
  We've tried to do ours. You have time, trust
• 31:57
  me. Just have a long drive set up and then just
• 32:00
  tear through it. Or just turn it on before you
• 32:04
  go to bed. Yeah, that's true. It'll bleed into
• 32:07
  your subconscious at night. Yeah, the radiation
• 32:09
  is good for your brain and all that stuff. Yeah,
• 32:11
  let it echo in your mind as you sleep. There
• 32:14
  you go. In the echo sphere. And then the next
• 32:19
  place that we see them is Exodus 25, 17. Okay.
• 32:25
  That's quite a bit later. It is quite a bit later.
• 32:27
  Yeah, so that's the other thing that's interesting.
• 32:29
  We see them kind of not consistently in every
• 32:33
  book. But like, oh, and here's a spot where we're
• 32:36
  going to talk about them. Well, technically,
• 32:37
  that is the next book. Yeah. It's just a lot
• 32:40
  of time later. Yes. A lot of time later. Yes.
• 32:43
  Yes. Yeah, that is correct. And in here, this
• 32:48
  is the Ark of the Covenant. And this is where
• 32:50
  we see them placed on either end of the Ark around
• 32:53
  the mercy seat. Representations, though. And
• 32:56
  that's, yes, not actually cherubim there, but
• 32:59
  carvings of them. Yeah. It was interesting because
• 33:03
  in Exodus 25, verse 22, this is where God says,
• 33:09
  there I will meet with you, and then from between
• 33:13
  the two cherubim. Right. So it's interesting
• 33:16
  because even here we get the same idea of like,
• 33:18
  okay, so they're surrounding the mercy seat,
• 33:21
  the cherubim are, symbolically in these carvings
• 33:24
  on top of the ark. And God's saying between them
• 33:27
  on the mercy seat is where I'm going to meet
• 33:29
  you. Yes. So we still get this idea of they're
• 33:31
  guarding the mercy seat. Yeah. So they're surrounding
• 33:35
  it. So they're the thing that they stand between
• 33:39
  us and God. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they're
• 33:44
  kind of a boundary. But isn't there also a description
• 33:48
  of within the wings? It's like this idea that
• 33:52
  Yahweh sits within the wings of. Yes. So in some
• 33:56
  ways it's almost like the armrest and the back
• 34:02
  of the chair of God is actually living beings
• 34:07
  that he's created. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So like it's
• 34:11
  not necessarily like the cherubim that we've
• 34:14
  seen description of is more like two beings on
• 34:17
  either side and their wings stretched out. Yeah.
• 34:20
  And they're touching. But it would probably be
• 34:22
  more like their wings are stretched out but open
• 34:25
  so that God can sit. Yes. You know what I mean?
• 34:29
  Yeah. Yeah, because they're surrounding the mercy
• 34:31
  seat. Yeah, because in Solomon's temple, it's
• 34:34
  a little bit closer to that because when you
• 34:39
  go, am I jumping? That's actually the next spot
• 34:41
  I have. Okay. Yeah, this is 1 Kings 6. Okay.
• 34:44
  So in Solomon's temple, the cherubim going into
• 34:48
  the holy place? Yes. are these huge golden statues.
• 34:53
  And from like your entry door, their wings start,
• 34:57
  but they're on the sides. And then as you walk
• 35:01
  down like the hall to get to the holy place,
• 35:05
  they kind of turn in and their wings touch. Yes.
• 35:10
  So it's like this, like almost like an open oval.
• 35:16
  Yes. Yeah. Where in order to get to God, you
• 35:22
  have to go through them. Yeah. So they are gatekeepers.
• 35:28
  Yes. Or use the word guarding. Yes. Yeah, they're
• 35:31
  guarding this area. Yeah, yeah. Well, then it's
• 35:35
  interesting, too, because then even in 1 Kings
• 35:37
  7, where they're describing the outer chambers
• 35:40
  where most people would go, we still see inside
• 35:43
  the panels of the door of the temple, we still
• 35:45
  see carvings of the cherubim. Yeah. And so it's
• 35:48
  interesting because it's like we don't have these
• 35:50
  grand statues that are, you know, surrounding
• 35:54
  or guarding the place where man meets God. Yeah.
• 35:58
  But they're also represented inside the doors
• 36:00
  as you walk in. Sure. So it's like not as grand.
• 36:04
  Yeah. Because you don't have these massive statues.
• 36:06
  Yeah. But it's still a reminder of like you're
• 36:08
  walking into a holy place and the cherubim are
• 36:11
  present. Yes. To where you have to walk through.
• 36:14
  Yes. And it's like, oh, okay. So these are. These
• 36:17
  are big deal creatures. But it also would have
• 36:19
  created this imagery for the Hebrew people of
• 36:22
  the garden of God. Yes. That like the holy place
• 36:26
  was the garden and the temple was even set up
• 36:32
  that way. Yeah. That it was this garden place
• 36:35
  that you had to access the holy place through
• 36:40
  the cherubim at the gate. Yeah. So it's mimicking
• 36:45
  the garden. Yes. The whole temple structure is
• 36:47
  mimicking the garden. Yes. Which is, that would
• 36:51
  be another episode that would be fun to get into.
• 36:52
  That would be a lot of fun. I mean, we're kind
• 36:54
  of talking about it a little bit now, but yeah.
• 36:56
  So, like, you get this idea that, like, the temple
• 37:00
  itself was similar to, I mean, we've talked about
• 37:03
  this, but the idea that, like, Israel, like,
• 37:07
  the Jewish people did not think that the whole
• 37:11
  of God's presence was contained within or upon
• 37:13
  the ark. Right. they actually didn't even see
• 37:17
  the mercy seat simply as this, but the temple
• 37:20
  itself as the footstool of God. Yeah. So it wasn't
• 37:24
  even that like, like that the earth itself was
• 37:28
  God's footstool, not a place on the earth to
• 37:32
  be able to contain God. Yes. But instead he could
• 37:35
  touch down and where he touched down was the
• 37:39
  mercy seat. Yeah. It's an interesting idea. Even
• 37:42
  jumping into this. But looking at the garden.
• 37:44
  Theologically a little bit. Yeah, but looking
• 37:46
  at the garden, it was the same thing. Yeah. He
• 37:49
  wasn't touching down on all of Eden. He was only
• 37:52
  touching down in the east of Eden in his garden.
• 37:55
  Yes. And so there's still this idea of like the
• 38:01
  earth itself cannot contain the presence of God.
• 38:04
  Yeah. So it is smaller than him. Yes. But it's
• 38:11
  interesting because it opens up that idea of
• 38:14
  like, wait, but I thought God was omnipresent
• 38:16
  everywhere. It's like, which is true, he is.
• 38:18
  Yes. But there are places where he's more present.
• 38:21
  Well, it's true. And that's where these moments
• 38:23
  are. It's like, well, in the Holy of Holies is
• 38:25
  where he's most present on earth. Yes. Or the
• 38:28
  garden is where he's most present on earth. Right,
• 38:31
  it's where he was walking. He would walk, yeah.
• 38:33
  And it's the same idea even now with us carrying,
• 38:38
  the Holy Spirit, is like, well, he's most present
• 38:43
  in people that claim Christ. Yes. Yeah. Well,
• 38:47
  he's most present in people that follow God.
• 38:50
  Well, within, he's only present in those who
• 38:54
  follow God. Yes, yeah. But surrounding, he's
• 38:58
  available to anyone who will pay attention to
• 39:00
  him. Absolutely. Yeah, so that's, yeah. Um, so
• 39:04
  it's kind of that interesting idea, but that's
• 39:06
  where, well, like if there were like a, if I
• 39:09
  were, um, if there were a mound, uh, uh, an ant
• 39:13
  mound below me and I put my feet down around
• 39:17
  the ant mound, like I can't get in the mound,
• 39:21
  but I can look down and observe everything. Yeah.
• 39:24
  But that's also not like fully like God has this
• 39:28
  way of putting his feet down and looking upon
• 39:31
  it. And then sending a spirit to live within
• 39:34
  it. Yes. So his knowledge extends in that way.
• 39:37
  Well, even taking the ant hill idea, it's like,
• 39:40
  well, beneath the surface. Right. These tunnels
• 39:43
  that they've created go everywhere. They're huge.
• 39:45
  That's what the Holy Spirit's for. Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:48
  So it's like we see the presence of, you know,
• 39:50
  where the ants live is in a lot of area. Yes.
• 39:54
  But where we notice them the most is in this
• 39:57
  hill. Yeah, right on top. Yeah. Yeah. Right on
• 40:00
  top of the hill. Yeah. Well, and that's why God
• 40:02
  in the garden goes, where are you guys? Yeah.
• 40:06
  Like if I was up here at the end, I'd be like,
• 40:08
  Hey God, Hey, where are you? You're supposed
• 40:10
  to be here. Yeah. Come out. I need to meet you.
• 40:12
  Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, but the
• 40:14
  Holy Spirit's like, I'm in there. He's like all
• 40:17
  in the tunnels. In the mines. Yeah. Um, so cherub.
• 40:25
  So cherubim. And then if we jump to the Psalms,
• 40:28
  we see in Psalm 81, 80 verse 1, and also 99 verse
• 40:35
  1, God is enthroned between the cherubim. Yeah.
• 40:40
  And then actually, I'll save that one here because
• 40:44
  that one's an interesting one. But then, yeah,
• 40:46
  that's also when we see Ezekiel 28, which we've
• 40:48
  mentioned. Yeah. Which is talking about the guardian
• 40:50
  cherub on the holy mountain of God. Yes. So it's
• 40:54
  still all these ideas of here they are guarding
• 40:57
  and around the presence of Yahweh. Right. And
• 41:00
  where man accesses that. Yeah, so maybe my question
• 41:04
  would be more so, is cherubim where we get the
• 41:08
  word chair? And maybe that's like, I don't know.
• 41:17
  I don't know the etymology of chair well enough
• 41:20
  to say that right now. But it kind of seems like
• 41:23
  it. Yeah. Like they were the back and sides of
• 41:26
  the mercy seat. Right. Yeah. So they were the
• 41:30
  original chair. Chair beam. Chair. Seat. How
• 41:35
  deep does it go? Where God sits. The first to
• 41:38
  sit. Was God the first to sit? Things we need
• 41:45
  to know, things we need to ask. These are the
• 41:47
  hard -hitting questions that we've all been wondering.
• 41:50
  Yeah, it's true. Which, we could do an episode
• 41:54
  on that too. But also, it is interesting to note
• 41:58
  that we see cherubim on the earth in Genesis
• 42:05
  3. Yes. But then we don't see them on the earth
• 42:09
  again. Yeah, then they're oftentimes representative.
• 42:13
  Yeah, we don't necessarily explicitly see them.
• 42:16
  Yeah. So the angels that appear are listed as
• 42:22
  simply messengers. Yes. Post cherubim. But Ezekiel
• 42:27
  sees them, right? All of the prophets and apostles
• 42:33
  that have heavenly vision see them. Yeah. So
• 42:38
  they're there. But this goes back to like, I've
• 42:42
  asked this question before too, but the idea
• 42:45
  of like, all right, so how, like what, how come
• 42:51
  they knew what cherubim look like? Because we,
• 42:57
  the only description or the description that
• 42:59
  we get isn't until Ezekiel. Yeah. But Moses and
• 43:03
  the Israelites created cherubim out of gold on
• 43:07
  the mercy seat. Yes. So how did they know what
• 43:10
  they looked like? Right, yeah. Moses must have
• 43:12
  seen them in the vision and in the time with
• 43:16
  God because if he's speaking face -to -face with
• 43:20
  Yahweh, which if he's speaking face -to -face
• 43:24
  with God, right, then there's obviously cherubim
• 43:28
  present. Yes. Because God's sitting on him. Yeah,
• 43:33
  which we'll see actually more of that even here
• 43:36
  in a minute. So then the description, either
• 43:39
  comes from Moses and it just wasn't written down
• 43:44
  or it comes from their knowledge and being able
• 43:50
  to see it as well. Yeah, and we'll go into a
• 43:53
  little bit more of like how they look in a second
• 43:56
  because we do get some different differences
• 43:58
  between how they're described. Well, and there
• 44:01
  are elders that sit up on the mountain with Moses.
• 44:07
  Oh, no, no, no. Am I getting these two things
• 44:11
  wrong? There's this council moment of, it's either
• 44:17
  apostles or it's leaders of Israel. And I can't
• 44:21
  remember. And this is unfortunate. But there's
• 44:25
  a moment where they go up and they're about to
• 44:29
  meet with, or they're not going to the highest
• 44:31
  place on the mountain, but they sit in the presence
• 44:34
  of God and have a meal. I think it's the elders
• 44:37
  of Israel. I'm pretty sure it is. I can't remember
• 44:41
  that verse right now off the top of my head.
• 44:43
  Yeah, yeah. Okay. But yeah, sorry. But that's
• 44:47
  fascinating. But anyways, they would have also
• 44:50
  seen cherubim. Yes. But that gets, yeah. When
• 44:54
  we get into description of why they look the
• 44:56
  way they look. Yeah, well, we can talk about
• 44:58
  that. I have a general idea. Yeah, yeah. So more
• 45:04
  places where we see them, what they're doing.
• 45:06
  Yes. This is where we see in 1 Chronicles 28,
• 45:10
  18. Okay. This is where David gives Solomon plans
• 45:14
  for the chariot of the cherubim. Okay, yeah.
• 45:18
  Which we also see the similar idea in Psalm 18,
• 45:21
  10 and 2 Samuel 22, 11, which is God is described
• 45:25
  as riding on a cherubim, flying on the wings
• 45:28
  of the wind. That's cool. Which is kind of cool.
• 45:31
  Yeah. So it's interesting. So even just to say
• 45:33
  this. because you brought even just like messenger
• 45:36
  angels, which is a little redundant to say, actually,
• 45:40
  because cherub or cherubim, they don't deliver
• 45:45
  messages. That's the, in Greek, be angelos, and
• 45:49
  then in Hebrew, be malak. Right. It's like those
• 45:52
  are the beings that deliver messages, and they
• 45:55
  have their own description of how they look,
• 45:57
  which is often very human. True. And a lot of
• 46:00
  times people don't know they're even angels until
• 46:02
  after. Yeah, from the messenger angels. But when
• 46:07
  people see cherub, they're like, yeah, that's
• 46:09
  a cherub. Right, for sure. Yeah, when they see,
• 46:13
  because we see that with Abraham, like he sits
• 46:15
  and has a meal with these beings. Yeah. And he's
• 46:18
  like, oh yeah, those are angels. True, but they're
• 46:21
  not necessarily cherub. No, they're not, they're
• 46:23
  angels. And then when the angel shows up to Mary,
• 46:25
  like these, yeah. So like we see different descriptions.
• 46:30
  So it's like, okay, so these are two different.
• 46:33
  two different things, but they also function
• 46:35
  two different ways. Yeah, that's true. So with
• 46:37
  an angel, it's like that is a messenger. That's
• 46:42
  someone who delivers a message. Yes, that's their
• 46:45
  job. That's their function. That's their function.
• 46:47
  And then for the cherub, it's like, well, they
• 46:50
  serve a different function, which is to guard
• 46:52
  access to Yahweh. Yeah, and like a quick scriptural
• 46:55
  anecdote to that is uh revelation two in revelation
• 47:00
  two we see um a message coming from yahweh uh
• 47:04
  that tell the angel at pergamum yeah so it's
• 47:09
  like there's an angel in heaven delivering a
• 47:11
  message to an angel on the earth who will then
• 47:15
  give it to the human leader so there's this like
• 47:19
  interchange it's like they have phones Or they
• 47:24
  have like a meetup spot. You know what I mean?
• 47:26
  And that's one where it's like, there's definitely
• 47:28
  different ways to interpret that. Even it's like,
• 47:31
  because if you look at an angel as someone who
• 47:35
  delivers the message of the Lord. Yes. It's like,
• 47:38
  well, you could call a human pastor an angel.
• 47:41
  Okay. Inside of that idea of someone who delivers
• 47:46
  a message. Oh, I see. But a message from the
• 47:49
  Lord. So that's one way you could look at it.
• 47:52
  The other way you could look at it is the supernatural
• 47:53
  view is like, oh no, there's actually this other
• 47:56
  thing here to help influence and lead and guide.
• 48:00
  Is it weird that at this point I'm a little bit
• 48:02
  repulsed at the first option? Me too. Isn't that
• 48:05
  funny? And the reason why is because that's more
• 48:09
  of a leap. It's ignoring the spiritual realm.
• 48:13
  Yeah. It's ignoring the fact that like Revelation
• 48:16
  2 quite literally says, To say to the angel of,
• 48:22
  say to the angel at Pergamum. Right. Or to the
• 48:26
  angel at Ephesus. Yeah. It's not addressing a
• 48:29
  person. Right. Like it says angel. Yeah. So like,
• 48:34
  but I think for us to interpret angel as man.
• 48:37
  Well, I think the only reason that that is a
• 48:40
  possibility still is because angel isn't a being.
• 48:44
  It's a job title. Sure. In the same way that
• 48:47
  we see here a little bit. So, like, send this
• 48:50
  to the receiver. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whose job
• 48:53
  is to do this. Yeah, but the thing is, is, like,
• 48:57
  it's written in Greek. Right. Paul's letters
• 49:01
  are written in Greek. Mm -hmm. And he says preacher.
• 49:04
  Yeah. So, like, if it were to say, send this
• 49:07
  to the preacher at Pergamum. Yeah. It would say
• 49:10
  that. It'd be like, oh, okay. Yeah. You see what
• 49:12
  I mean? Like kind of simple logic. And that's
• 49:14
  what leads more to the supernatural view of it.
• 49:17
  Yeah. But also it's a supernatural book. Absolutely
• 49:20
  it is. I mean the whole thing, yes. But like
• 49:22
  particularly in Revelation when you're getting
• 49:25
  this glimpse into the heaven space, then it's
• 49:29
  quite literally going like this is how the back
• 49:31
  end works, guys. Yeah. You know what I mean?
• 49:34
  Like even with a phone operator, like the way
• 49:37
  that that all used to work is like. there was
• 49:39
  a person in between and they were behind a wall.
• 49:42
  They were somewhere else. So if I wanted to call
• 49:46
  you, I had to call them. And that's kind of how
• 49:51
  it shows heaven is set up. He has set it up in
• 49:56
  a way where if he wants to deliver something
• 49:58
  to a human, he does it through this third party.
• 50:02
  Yeah. that he's created for that purpose. I think
• 50:05
  that's also what's interesting with the letters
• 50:06
  in Revelation is those are written by Jesus.
• 50:10
  Or they're spoken from him. Okay, this is another
• 50:15
  podcast. Yeah, we'll definitely talk about that.
• 50:17
  Okay, we can talk about that another time. So
• 50:19
  description of cherub. Yeah, so what do they
• 50:24
  look like? So there's actually only two places
• 50:26
  where we see them actually described. Okay. As
• 50:30
  far as actually seeing them. Is the first one,
• 50:33
  In Exodus? It's in Ezekiel. Okay. Yeah, we've
• 50:36
  talked about that. Yeah, so this is what we've
• 50:38
  talked about. So this is Ezekiel 1, 5 through
• 50:40
  7. Okay. And he says they have human likeness.
• 50:43
  They have four faces. A human face, a lion face,
• 50:48
  an ox face, and an eagle face. Four wings, a
• 50:52
  calf's foot, and human hands. Sure. So it's like,
• 50:55
  okay, so each one of these things has that. Yeah.
• 50:59
  So each one has four faces. Each one has four
• 51:02
  wings. Yeah. Each one has calves feet for some
• 51:05
  reason. Kind of cool. And human hands. Kind of
• 51:07
  cool. Which is interesting though because calves
• 51:11
  feet are split, right? I believe so, yeah. Oh,
• 51:18
  wait. No, they're hooves. No, no, yeah. They're
• 51:22
  not split. No, they're not. Okay. That's important.
• 51:24
  I was like, wait, no, they're not because they'd
• 51:26
  be clean. They're not unclean animals. No, so
• 51:29
  you can eat cherub. Yummy, yummy. What are we
• 51:35
  having for dinner tonight? I found some cherubim.
• 51:40
  One crash landed in our backyard. Talk about
• 51:45
  age of disclosure. So I do want to point this
• 51:50
  out first, actually, before I say the next description.
• 51:54
  Sorry, that opens up a whole wormhole. Actually,
• 51:58
  jumping back to what we see them doing. Okay.
• 52:00
  Because normally we see them like standing and
• 52:04
  guarding Yahweh's, our access to Yahweh. Yeah,
• 52:07
  yeah. But then we have the description of like,
• 52:10
  oh, actually, God flies on them. Right. Or we
• 52:14
  see like the chariot of the cherubim. And I think
• 52:16
  it's this idea that we see of anywhere Yahweh
• 52:19
  goes, the cherubim go with him. Yeah, secret
• 52:22
  service. Yeah, it's secret service. So it's like
• 52:25
  that's what they do. Right. But they have families
• 52:30
  too. They do. It's their job. They clock in,
• 52:33
  they clock out. It's their nine to five. Cherub
• 52:36
  have families too. Okay. So what got you into
• 52:41
  guardianship? I just got to feed my family, bro.
• 52:44
  Yeah. It's a lineage thing? It's a family business.
• 52:48
  I would think that you would understand. So interestingly,
• 52:54
  in Revelation is where we see the next description
• 52:56
  of them. Okay. Oh, Ezekiel all the way to Revelation.
• 53:00
  Yeah. Okay. This is Revelation 4, 6 through 8.
• 53:03
  Which you could argue Ezekiel is the first Revelation.
• 53:06
  Yeah. Revelation is like part two. Well, not
• 53:11
  if you count Daniel. Oh, fair. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 53:15
  I always forget about Daniel. Yeah, he's, I feel
• 53:18
  like he's not, at least for me, I don't think
• 53:19
  of him as like the prophet Daniel always. Sure.
• 53:22
  And then I'm like, what did he say? Oh yeah,
• 53:24
  that dude, that dude said some very prophetic
• 53:27
  things. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's
• 53:31
  very prophetic. Yeah. Yeah. So Revelation, this
• 53:37
  is weird. Have we done a Daniel episode? Oh,
• 53:39
  we've talked about him a little bit. We've brought
• 53:40
  him up. We've never done a Daniel episode. Mostly
• 53:43
  a Nebuchadnezzar. Yeah. Okay. So Revelation,
• 53:46
  this is where we see the difference. So to put
• 53:49
  them more back to back, in Ezekiel, we see they
• 53:52
  have a human likeness. Each one has four faces,
• 53:54
  four wings, a calf's feet, and human hands. Okay.
• 53:59
  But then Revelation, John describes them as full
• 54:02
  of eyes in front and behind, all around and within,
• 54:05
  which within is like, how do you know that? He's
• 54:11
  like, open your mouth. Let me take a peek. Each
• 54:14
  creature with a single face. So the first one
• 54:21
  with the face of a lion, the second with the
• 54:23
  face of an ox, the third with the face of a man,
• 54:26
  and the fourth with an eagle in flight. And then
• 54:30
  they have six wings. Okay. So it's like, wait,
• 54:33
  these are two very different, some similarities,
• 54:36
  but very different descriptions. Yeah, yeah.
• 54:38
  So, like, what's going on here? And so... For
• 54:42
  me, I guess the first question a lot of people
• 54:44
  might jump at is, oh, there's inconsistency now.
• 54:48
  Okay. So they're making it up, right? Sure. And
• 54:51
  I think the big thing here is like, well, the
• 54:54
  descriptions aren't to give us an anatomy lesson.
• 54:58
  Correct. Or to be consistent. Yeah. But they
• 55:01
  function more symbolically to evoke certain ideas.
• 55:05
  Oh, okay. I see. And so actually, so the description
• 55:09
  of the cherubim from Ezekiel is similar with
• 55:12
  the Mesopotamian views of what throne guardians
• 55:15
  looked like. Makes sense. So the Hebrew word
• 55:18
  for cherub comes from the Mesopotamian word karibu.
• 55:22
  Okay. Like a caribou. Yeah. Those are cherub.
• 55:27
  No, I'm kidding. Okay, fair. And we sit on them
• 55:32
  now. We laid them out as rugs. And they were
• 55:37
  guardians of deities. Okay. So they were, so
• 55:42
  yeah, in here it's like, they're not giving anatomy
• 55:44
  lessons. Like this is the anatomy of a cherub.
• 55:46
  Right. But they're using descriptions and symbolism
• 55:49
  to help us comprehend spiritual encounters and
• 55:52
  evoke meaning from it. Well, that makes me think
• 55:54
  like, did Enlil have guardians? And he would
• 56:00
  have. Why? Because they all do. So lesser Elohim
• 56:07
  would have their own cherub? Inside the Mesopotamian
• 56:11
  views, yes. That was their belief. But in actuality,
• 56:16
  they wouldn't. But they would say they do. Well,
• 56:19
  maybe they do. Actually, that's interesting.
• 56:22
  Because a vice president has... That's true.
• 56:25
  I want to say Social Security. He also has that.
• 56:30
  He has all of it. Yeah, he would have secret
• 56:33
  service. He would have secret service. Yeah.
• 56:35
  And even past presidents have secret service.
• 56:38
  Yeah. So like in that way, do other Elohim have
• 56:44
  entourage? Which that would be an interesting
• 56:49
  thing to look at. And that's one where the Bible
• 56:51
  doesn't really give us insight into that. But
• 56:54
  if cherub is a job description. Yeah. then it
• 56:57
  would make sense. Right. Yeah. You know what
• 57:00
  I mean? Yeah. And maybe part of like a third
• 57:03
  of the angels falling with Satan is part of that.
• 57:08
  Yeah. Like some of it is his like. His entourage.
• 57:12
  His cherub. Which is very possible. Which is
• 57:15
  weird to think about. It is. But I think it's
• 57:19
  less. Unless he was a cherub and then it's the
• 57:21
  guardians. not guarding correctly. But I think
• 57:24
  that's the big thing. That's what we have to
• 57:26
  keep in mind a little bit so far here is like
• 57:30
  what we're seeing is not like this is this class
• 57:34
  and this is what they look like. Right. And they
• 57:36
  just happen to do this thing. It's like no no
• 57:38
  no they're just a being and this is what they
• 57:40
  do. Yeah. This is their job title. Well and in
• 57:43
  the same way where humanity we kind of go like
• 57:46
  what is our purpose like outside of God. Yeah.
• 57:49
  That's the big thing is like. It's like the Zoolander.
• 57:52
  Have you seen Zoolander? Oh, yeah. Have you seen
• 57:55
  all of them? I haven't seen the second one, actually.
• 57:58
  The second one is more so what I'm thinking about,
• 58:01
  because there's this moment where Ben Stiller's
• 58:04
  out on a balcony, and he's like, who am I? Who
• 58:08
  am I? Who am I? And then he goes into this whole
• 58:12
  song thing, and it's all like, who am I? And
• 58:16
  that's the question of humanity, is apart from
• 58:19
  God, who are we? And the answer is nothing. You
• 58:23
  are but dust. So that is the thing. So then apart
• 58:29
  from Yahweh, who are the cherub? They are nothing.
• 58:36
  They're unemployed, is what they are. When we
• 58:39
  see King of Tyre described in Ezekiel 28, it's
• 58:43
  like you once were this great... guardian cherub
• 58:47
  on the mountain of god in the garden of god and
• 58:49
  now look at you well it even says and then when
• 58:52
  you descend to the depths of sheol yes those
• 58:55
  everyone will look at you and go like oh you
• 58:57
  were the one that were tormenting us right so
• 59:00
  then the question is are the lower case like
• 59:05
  is there a difference between uh other elohim
• 59:09
  or lowercase g gods are these a different class
• 59:15
  than fallen cherub and i think well actually
• 59:19
  so actually you know what i'll say to answer
• 59:21
  your other question kind of thinking through
• 59:22
  it a little bit more um on like a philosophical
• 59:26
  side okay or like consistency side yeah um i
• 59:30
  think it's fair to argue that they would have
• 59:32
  cherub and the reason for that is because if
• 59:36
  this is a job why wouldn't they employ their
• 59:38
  own cherub right yeah but if they are like oh
• 59:41
  i need something to guard me Because I'm supposed
• 59:44
  to be Yahweh. Unless the lower Elohim are cherub.
• 59:49
  Well... You see what I'm saying? Unless they're
• 59:52
  guardians. So we don't have any description of
• 59:54
  other Elohim. Well, so that's the thing is that
• 59:57
  when they would have fallen, they would have
• 1:00:01
  been fired. Right, but are they cherub? Well,
• 1:00:06
  so their job to be a cherub would no longer...
• 1:00:09
  It's like they could have been a cherub. It would
• 1:00:11
  be the same way as like... No, but one step back.
• 1:00:12
  Are they cherub? Meaning... Well, we know that
• 1:00:16
  one of them was. Correct. Which is in Ezekiel.
• 1:00:19
  But if the one that was is the ancient serpent,
• 1:00:23
  because that, I don't know that we have that.
• 1:00:27
  We don't often put that together. No, and it
• 1:00:29
  doesn't really put it together for us. No, but
• 1:00:33
  it gives us a lot of hints that that's probably
• 1:00:34
  what they're talking about. Unless... The ancient
• 1:00:38
  serpent, the devil, Satan, is another Elohim.
• 1:00:45
  And the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is actually
• 1:00:51
  a guardian cherub that falls. Yeah, which is
• 1:00:55
  what I would argue. But different than Satan.
• 1:00:59
  Yeah. And I think with that, what's interesting
• 1:01:02
  is... Is the ancient serpent another, is it lesser
• 1:01:07
  Elohim? And then the third of heaven that falls
• 1:01:11
  with him are cherub. Do you see what I'm saying?
• 1:01:14
  Yeah. That's something we don't really have detail
• 1:01:17
  in. No. And to put it consistently is... It says
• 1:01:22
  that in Ezekiel, he was a guardian cherub in
• 1:01:25
  the mountain of God. Yes. So it's like, okay,
• 1:01:27
  so that means his job, based on what we're seeing
• 1:01:31
  in the consistency of what scripture is laying
• 1:01:33
  out, is that his job was to guard access to Yahweh.
• 1:01:38
  Sure, yeah, yeah. So then when he failed, it's
• 1:01:42
  like, well, you got fired. You're no longer,
• 1:01:44
  like if you're working in IT and they fire you
• 1:01:46
  from that job and then now you're working at
• 1:01:47
  McDonald's, it's like you're not an IT guy. Correct.
• 1:01:50
  You're a McDonald's employee. Oh, okay. So once
• 1:01:53
  the cherub gets fired, he's no longer a cherub.
• 1:01:57
  Correct. Which means that a cherub is a job.
• 1:02:02
  Yes. Which is synonymous with a specific being.
• 1:02:06
  Yes. Yes, it is. So then, wait, real quick. Yeah.
• 1:02:12
  Side tangent before we get there. Okay. The reason
• 1:02:16
  why I think that they are different in their
• 1:02:19
  descriptions from Ezekiel to John the Apostle,
• 1:02:23
  and the reason why I think they look the way
• 1:02:25
  that they do is because of inadequacies in human
• 1:02:32
  vision. So, in other words, I think that... What
• 1:02:37
  we see kind of throughout is like even Jesus
• 1:02:40
  in his descriptions in the New Testament when
• 1:02:43
  he's describing the kingdom of God. Yeah. He's
• 1:02:45
  using tangible things that they understand and
• 1:02:47
  know. Yes. So I think what's happening is they
• 1:02:51
  are seeing something. And like in Ezekiel's case,
• 1:02:56
  he is probably pointing back to Mesopotamian
• 1:03:00
  things and going, oh, this is what they were
• 1:03:03
  talking about. Yeah. Like it's like that. Yes.
• 1:03:07
  Like what I'm seeing is like those things that
• 1:03:10
  you guys have seen in the Mesopotamian temples.
• 1:03:13
  And it would make sense that he would see things
• 1:03:15
  slightly differently because he has a different
• 1:03:18
  cultural lens than Ezekiel would have. But also
• 1:03:20
  think about like if you go to a 3D movie and
• 1:03:23
  when you sit in a 3D movie, if you take the glasses
• 1:03:26
  off. Oh, yeah. You're getting multiple layers
• 1:03:28
  all at once. And it's fuzzy. It's not only fuzzy.
• 1:03:32
  It's actually it can be clear. Yeah. It's just
• 1:03:36
  clearly not aligned. Yeah. So my opinion is that
• 1:03:42
  what Ezekiel is seeing is not fully aligned for
• 1:03:46
  his vision. Yeah. So in other words, it's Paul's
• 1:03:50
  seeing through a mirror dimly. It's John the
• 1:03:53
  apostle being in the heavenly spaces in his dust
• 1:03:58
  brain. Cannot comprehend and piece together all
• 1:04:03
  the things that he's seeing. Right. So maybe
• 1:04:05
  for Ezekiel, he's seeing it with 3D glasses on.
• 1:04:10
  And so he's seeing four beings all in one. Yeah.
• 1:04:14
  Whereas maybe John didn't have his 3D glasses
• 1:04:16
  on and he sees it all split out into four beings.
• 1:04:20
  Which is possible as well. And that's clear speculation.
• 1:04:23
  But my point with it is our physical eyes. were
• 1:04:29
  not designed to see spiritual spaces. Right.
• 1:04:32
  So they were designed to see the spaces in which
• 1:04:35
  we are to have dominion. So like we have the
• 1:04:38
  tools we need for the job we're doing. Yes. But
• 1:04:42
  the job we're doing is not in this other space.
• 1:04:45
  No, it's here on the earth. Right. Yeah. So we're
• 1:04:47
  not equipped to function in the other space.
• 1:04:51
  No, we're equipped to function in three -dimensional
• 1:04:53
  space. Right. Yeah. So it's... Well, and also
• 1:04:57
  because of that, I think the other side with
• 1:05:00
  that, because there are other differences in
• 1:05:02
  their descriptions. Yeah. Where it's like, well,
• 1:05:04
  John sees eyes everywhere. Right. Ezekiel never
• 1:05:07
  mentions that. Sure. John sees six wings. Yeah.
• 1:05:10
  Ezekiel sees four wings. Right. So it's like,
• 1:05:13
  wait, what? And I think a lot of that too is
• 1:05:15
  like, well, how do you put language to something
• 1:05:17
  that has no language? Yeah, exactly. And that's
• 1:05:20
  there. It's like, well, you do it through interpreting
• 1:05:22
  what you do know. And the same way you said Jesus
• 1:05:24
  is describing heaven through tangible things
• 1:05:27
  we can understand. Yes. Because what's happening
• 1:05:30
  up there, we cannot even comprehend. Right. Because
• 1:05:32
  we've never seen it before. Yes. And so in the
• 1:05:35
  same way we see that even on Earth, where I remember
• 1:05:37
  I saw this video, it must have been like 15 years
• 1:05:39
  ago now, which is crazy to think about. It might
• 1:05:42
  have been 10 years ago. Yeah, yeah. And the idea
• 1:05:44
  that this guy was following through is like,
• 1:05:46
  what would happen if you brought like George
• 1:05:48
  Washington and just dropped him into modern day
• 1:05:51
  Manhattan? Sure, yeah. And it's like his brain
• 1:05:53
  would probably explode. It's the idea of giving
• 1:05:55
  Tesla an iPhone. Yeah. It's like, yeah, their
• 1:05:58
  brains would probably break because they're just
• 1:05:59
  like, what am I even looking at? And the same
• 1:06:02
  way there's stories of even when the ships were
• 1:06:06
  coming over to the Americas, the Native Americans
• 1:06:09
  oftentimes didn't even recognize. that there
• 1:06:13
  was even something coming. They were like, oh,
• 1:06:15
  there's clouds over there. It's like, well, they've
• 1:06:17
  never seen anything like that before and they
• 1:06:20
  have no language to interpret it. So now these
• 1:06:24
  people are being brought up into a space they're
• 1:06:27
  not even supposed to exist in. And now they're
• 1:06:30
  supposed to tell other people what they saw.
• 1:06:32
  They're like, um, eyes? Yeah, everywhere. Everywhere.
• 1:06:38
  And there was like this wheel that was also within
• 1:06:41
  another wheel. And it was spinning everywhere.
• 1:06:44
  And it's like, what? Yeah, exactly. So the motorcycle
• 1:06:48
  from Tron? He doesn't even fully know. And the
• 1:06:50
  thing that's interesting about that is he might
• 1:06:51
  be able to picture in his mind perfectly the
• 1:06:54
  way he saw it. Sure. But it's like, but how do
• 1:06:56
  you put words to that thing that has no words?
• 1:06:59
  Yeah. Yeah. And that's why he wrote what he wrote.
• 1:07:03
  Yeah. And also with John, which is interesting
• 1:07:06
  in Revelation, is there's so much overlap with
• 1:07:09
  Old Testament prophecy. Right. And I think that's
• 1:07:13
  purposeful because he's like, well, these people
• 1:07:15
  use this language to see what I saw. So let me
• 1:07:18
  borrow their language, but then add my lens to
• 1:07:21
  it. Because the way he interprets things is through
• 1:07:24
  his current day mind. For sure. And so he's not
• 1:07:29
  surrounded by Egyptian and Mesopotamian carvings
• 1:07:34
  and myths. He's surrounded by Greek and Roman.
• 1:07:39
  It's in a Greco -Roman world. Yeah, that's true.
• 1:07:41
  So they would see things differently. Yeah, that's
• 1:07:43
  true. Yeah, and also, like, again, it's like
• 1:07:47
  that, like, from which angle did they see them?
• 1:07:50
  That's also, yeah. You know what I mean? That's
• 1:07:52
  true. Because if they saw them just from the
• 1:07:54
  front or they saw them from the side, it's like,
• 1:07:58
  well, how many wings does it actually have? I
• 1:08:01
  couldn't see what was on the back end of it.
• 1:08:03
  Yeah, maybe there was another set I didn't see.
• 1:08:05
  Right. Maybe they have six more sets, we don't
• 1:08:07
  know. Yeah. But it would make sense to bring
• 1:08:11
  in that idea of like, okay, it's like the Guardians
• 1:08:14
  that you've seen over here. It's similar to that.
• 1:08:18
  Yeah. But that would get back into... So going
• 1:08:23
  back to this, do you have something else? Kind
• 1:08:27
  of into this next space of going back to the
• 1:08:29
  question. is like even, I want to kind of look
• 1:08:32
  at it grammatically a little bit. Oh, okay. Because
• 1:08:34
  I think that also kind of gives us some clues
• 1:08:37
  into how they're talked about. Okay. And because
• 1:08:39
  I've already said like, I think it's a job description.
• 1:08:41
  Yeah. And the other part of that is the way it's
• 1:08:45
  used, like cherub isn't a name, but it's a noun.
• 1:08:48
  Right. It's a common noun. Yeah, yeah. And you
• 1:08:51
  can say - That's true, because we have like -
• 1:08:53
  we have like Michael. Yeah, we name specifics.
• 1:08:56
  Yeah, with certain angels, yeah. Yeah, it's never
• 1:08:59
  like, yeah, then Michael's showed up. The Michael's
• 1:09:02
  showed up. It's like, what? Yeah. And for that
• 1:09:06
  same fact, we can pluralize it. We can say the
• 1:09:09
  cherubim. True. And with that, it's like, yeah,
• 1:09:12
  you can count them. Right. And somebody's like,
• 1:09:15
  oh, I saw four or I saw two or I saw blah, blah,
• 1:09:17
  blah. Unless it's hard to because like, is one
• 1:09:21
  of them four? Right. How does the math work out
• 1:09:27
  here? It gets a little blurry. So with that,
• 1:09:30
  it's like, yeah, that's not how names work. Right.
• 1:09:32
  But that's how roles work. Yeah, that's true.
• 1:09:35
  And I think even the way what we see them doing
• 1:09:38
  is extremely consistent. Yes. Throughout all
• 1:09:41
  of scripture. It's like, well, they're always
• 1:09:43
  given this description of guarding Yahweh. Yeah.
• 1:09:46
  Yeah, true. And so it's like, oh, so that's their
• 1:09:49
  function. Well, and I like what we were talking
• 1:09:51
  about right before I went to the description
• 1:09:54
  thing. It's simply the idea that when we see
• 1:09:56
  the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28, and we see that
• 1:10:02
  you once were this. You once were this great
• 1:10:06
  guardian cherub in the garden of God, on the
• 1:10:08
  mountain of God, and then you fell into the depths
• 1:10:11
  of Sheol. Yeah. It's like, okay, then you were
• 1:10:13
  stripped of your job title. Yes. So was the job
• 1:10:18
  title cherub? Yes. Okay. Yeah. So then, but also
• 1:10:23
  is the, ah, tricked you. No. But also is the,
• 1:10:29
  are those who have the job of cherub, are they
• 1:10:34
  also cherub as a species? And that's one where
• 1:10:38
  it's like, we're not actually given that. And
• 1:10:40
  because of the difference in Ezekiel's description
• 1:10:44
  and John's description yeah they could actually
• 1:10:48
  not be one specific being right but different
• 1:10:51
  like cousins of a similar species right and because
• 1:10:56
  that's the one thing that we're not really given
• 1:10:58
  it that's it that's the part that I find interesting
• 1:11:00
  is like within scripture and I've got one more
• 1:11:02
  thing to add another layer to this okay is like
• 1:11:06
  we're never really given a specifics of what
• 1:11:10
  they all look like sure consistently okay the
• 1:11:13
  only times we see that is usually when they're
• 1:11:15
  on Earth. Right. And when we see that, those
• 1:11:17
  are angels, and they're given more human -like
• 1:11:21
  appearances. Well, and that goes back to what
• 1:11:23
  I meant to say was Highlander. So the book and
• 1:11:27
  the movie idea of being in a two -dimensional
• 1:11:32
  world, seeing a three -dimensional object. Yeah.
• 1:11:34
  If you look at a cylinder in a two -dimensional
• 1:11:39
  world, it looks like a circle. Right. Or it looks
• 1:11:43
  like a straight line, depending on what angle
• 1:11:45
  you're looking at it. So then, are these beings
• 1:11:48
  multidimensional? And so therefore, our three
• 1:11:52
  -dimensional brain reception is not able to fully
• 1:11:58
  create boundaries to identify a... a four, five,
• 1:12:05
  six dimensional being. Right. Even to walk that
• 1:12:08
  out, like the 2D to 3D looking at a cylinder.
• 1:12:10
  Yeah. It's just like, well, how would a 2D mind
• 1:12:12
  describe that? Be like, it's a line and a circle.
• 1:12:16
  Yes. And it's like, what? It's a circle this
• 1:12:19
  way, but when you turn this way, it becomes a
• 1:12:21
  line. Yeah, it's a line with a circle on it.
• 1:12:25
  Right. And they're like, what? How can it have
• 1:12:29
  both? But the line is in the middle of the circle.
• 1:12:32
  Yeah. And somehow it holds. And there's circles
• 1:12:34
  on both ends. Well, how do you know both ends
• 1:12:36
  are? It's like, well, you see. Right, exactly.
• 1:12:41
  Yeah. So what's the last thing? So the other
• 1:12:43
  layer to this is, what about the seraphim? The
• 1:12:47
  other dimension? Yeah. So with this is like,
• 1:12:49
  I'm kind of seeing like, it seems like the Bible
• 1:12:52
  is explaining cherub as a job. Okay. But now
• 1:12:55
  we have the seraphim. So what do we do about
• 1:12:56
  those? Is that a species or is that another job?
• 1:13:00
  And if so, what is it? Right. And so with this,
• 1:13:03
  we really only see this word in Isaiah. And it's
• 1:13:09
  Isaiah 6, 2 through 7. Can you name the hymn
• 1:13:11
  that says both cherubim and seraphim in it? I
• 1:13:16
  can't. Oh, wait. Can you? There's a hymn. I think
• 1:13:21
  of the song. The first thing that came to mind
• 1:13:22
  is the song In the Bleak Midwinter. Is that it?
• 1:13:26
  Okay. Does that say it? That's a Christmas song.
• 1:13:29
  Yeah, cherubim and seraphim. That's in A Bleak
• 1:13:31
  Midwinter? Yeah. Oh, I wasn't even thinking that.
• 1:13:34
  Yeah. Well, then there's more than one. Oh. And
• 1:13:40
  there probably is like three or four. But I'm
• 1:13:44
  thinking of Holy, Holy, Holy. Oh. Cherubim and
• 1:13:48
  seraphim. Yes. Bowing down before him. And that
• 1:13:53
  goes into the. Which is interesting because on
• 1:13:56
  part of that, it's like, wait. But the cherubim,
• 1:14:00
  we're like, it's a job title we're kind of exploring.
• 1:14:03
  Sure. So it's like, but I think it's confusing
• 1:14:05
  to us sometimes because that word hasn't been
• 1:14:08
  translated as like guardian. It's just like,
• 1:14:11
  and here's that word with a capital letter. Yeah,
• 1:14:14
  yeah. And we're like, oh, of course. Yeah. Hello,
• 1:14:18
  Mr. Seraphim. I am a Seraphim. Well, but that
• 1:14:23
  would be different. I am Seraphim. Yeah, that
• 1:14:25
  would be different. Versus I am a Seraphim. Like,
• 1:14:27
  what do you do for work? Seraphim. Yeah. Cherubim.
• 1:14:30
  I'm in the seraphology department. So yeah, so
• 1:14:35
  we see this in Isaiah. And they're described
• 1:14:38
  as having - Which that would be the study of
• 1:14:39
  seraphim. Yeah. I study myself. I study myself.
• 1:14:45
  Seraphimology. And so they're described as having
• 1:14:50
  six wings. Okay. So Isaiah and his audience would
• 1:14:55
  be more familiar with Egyptian symbology. or
• 1:14:58
  symbolism than Mesopotamian. Okay. So I think
• 1:15:02
  with this we see him using Egyptian symbols.
• 1:15:05
  And I'll kind of go into this a little bit more.
• 1:15:07
  Oh. So Hebrew has two words pronounced seraph.
• 1:15:11
  Okay. So one is a noun that means serpent. The
• 1:15:15
  second is a verb meaning to burn. Okay. So many
• 1:15:20
  scholars believe that seraphim means burning
• 1:15:22
  ones based on the verb. Got it. So they exclude
• 1:15:26
  the serpent imagery. Okay. So we get this idea
• 1:15:28
  of like, oh, the burning ones were around. Yeah.
• 1:15:32
  But sometimes both things, especially in Hebrew,
• 1:15:34
  can be at play at the same time. Sure. So in
• 1:15:37
  Egypt, the divine throne guardians were described
• 1:15:41
  as cobras. And cobras had that flared skin on
• 1:15:44
  their neck that they called wings. And so Egyptian
• 1:15:49
  artists exaggerated this trait to make them more
• 1:15:52
  bird -like wings. And we've seen that in hieroglyphs
• 1:15:55
  and stuff. It's like these super long things
• 1:15:58
  on a serpent. You're like, what is that? So also,
• 1:16:02
  the venom from cobras, the venom that they would
• 1:16:06
  spit, would cause your eyes to burn. So with
• 1:16:10
  this idea at play, we kind of get the idea that
• 1:16:12
  both things are happening and they're a fiery
• 1:16:14
  serpent. Got it. But what's interesting is because
• 1:16:17
  in Isaiah, and I forgot this in my notes to write
• 1:16:20
  it down, but they're doing the same job as throne
• 1:16:24
  guardians for Yahweh. Okay. And so it's kind
• 1:16:27
  of the idea of like, oh, wait, so what's happening
• 1:16:29
  here? Are they like, are like the cherubim clocking
• 1:16:31
  out and the seraphim are clocking in? Like, here's
• 1:16:33
  the night watch. Yeah, yeah. But it's like, no,
• 1:16:36
  really what we're seeing is two different cultures
• 1:16:38
  trying to explain what they're seeing. So in
• 1:16:41
  Isaiah, we have a Babylonian worldview. Okay.
• 1:16:44
  Or sorry, with Ezekiel. Yeah, Ezekiel with a
• 1:16:46
  Babylonian worldview, explaining things the best
• 1:16:49
  he can through a Mesopotamian lens, which everyone
• 1:16:51
  would be very affluent with. Sure. And then in
• 1:16:54
  Isaiah, he's in Egypt. Yes. And he would see
• 1:16:58
  things the way the Egyptians saw divinity. Oh,
• 1:17:01
  so you're saying cherub and seraphim are potentially
• 1:17:05
  human names for the same thing. Yes. And they're
• 1:17:11
  actually just descriptors of the job. Okay. And
• 1:17:14
  so in the same way, it's like with cherub, that's
• 1:17:16
  actually based off of the Mesopotamian word.
• 1:17:20
  Got it. And the way they're described is very
• 1:17:22
  similar. Okay. And I think with that, it's not
• 1:17:24
  because anyone's copying. Right. But they're
• 1:17:26
  like, that's the language I have to explain this
• 1:17:28
  thing I saw. Yes. And in the same way with seraphim,
• 1:17:32
  the burning, like the burning fiery serpent.
• 1:17:35
  Yes. He's like, well, that makes sense because
• 1:17:38
  that's what I see all around me every day in
• 1:17:41
  Egypt. Yeah, yeah. And I think the key indicator
• 1:17:44
  here is like they're both doing the same job.
• 1:17:48
  Well, and then adding another opinion in, could
• 1:17:51
  it be that even the brain processing these things
• 1:17:57
  is only processing it how they know, not what
• 1:18:01
  they're actually seeing? Yes. Do you know what
• 1:18:03
  I mean? Yeah. So like it could be that these
• 1:18:06
  prophets were processing through the lens of
• 1:18:10
  what they've seen. Yes. Versus actually describing
• 1:18:14
  what they were looking at, that their brain couldn't
• 1:18:17
  comprehend fully what they were looking at. So
• 1:18:19
  their mental image was closer to what they've
• 1:18:23
  already seen. Yes. So in other words, they weren't
• 1:18:26
  maybe potentially not trying to go, well, it
• 1:18:29
  kind of looked like these things. Right. But
• 1:18:31
  more so they actually saw those things. Yes.
• 1:18:35
  Because that's like the vision that they had.
• 1:18:39
  Yeah, and I think it's interesting with that.
• 1:18:41
  It doesn't necessarily mean that that's what
• 1:18:43
  they saw, but that's the best way they could
• 1:18:45
  explain what they saw. Well, and that's more
• 1:18:47
  characteristic of a dream. Yeah. And even of
• 1:18:50
  a vision in that way. Typically, in a vision,
• 1:18:54
  you're not typically seeing something you've
• 1:18:56
  never seen. Yeah. You know what I mean? If someone
• 1:18:59
  has a vision, even a prophetic vision, it's more
• 1:19:03
  so something to come, but it's not a completely
• 1:19:07
  new idea. Yeah. So it would make sense that the
• 1:19:11
  visions described are putting together pieces
• 1:19:15
  of things that are to come, but are laid out
• 1:19:18
  in a way only using things that they have in
• 1:19:23
  their tool bag. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
• 1:19:26
  Well, actually, so even in the dream side of
• 1:19:28
  it, to what you're saying, like the way even
• 1:19:31
  with how like location changes inside of a dream.
• 1:19:35
  Where it's like, in your dream, the way I would,
• 1:19:37
  it's like, oh, I saw something, and it's like,
• 1:19:39
  yeah, so I was in my backyard, and then I turned
• 1:19:43
  around, and then I was at your house. And then
• 1:19:45
  I turned again, and I was at Walmart. And it's
• 1:19:49
  just like, well, in the dream, I was in one place.
• 1:19:52
  But in reality, I'm like, the way I can describe
• 1:19:55
  it is I was teleporting to these different locations.
• 1:19:58
  And it's like, okay, well, which one was it?
• 1:20:00
  I was brought to this place. But in the dream
• 1:20:03
  space, it's like I was in one spot. Yes. Yeah.
• 1:20:06
  Fair. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. So then
• 1:20:09
  cherubim and seraphim, which wasn't part of my
• 1:20:12
  question. I added to it. Yeah. I like it. Are
• 1:20:16
  they a species or is that a job description?
• 1:20:20
  And based on like what I'm seeing and what makes
• 1:20:24
  sense for how scripture lays it out, is this
• 1:20:27
  a job description? That makes sense. And I think
• 1:20:29
  even with what we're, what we've seen in other
• 1:20:31
  places. Yeah. Cause even was it in, um, what,
• 1:20:35
  which book was that when it was talking about
• 1:20:37
  like the two holy ones talking to one another?
• 1:20:39
  Oh, um, I think it's Isaiah. That might be. Yeah.
• 1:20:42
  So even with that, it's like how it's translated
• 1:20:45
  to us and what it's actually saying are different.
• 1:20:48
  Yeah. Like keeper of the numbers. Yeah. And it's
• 1:20:50
  like, well, it's talking about jobs. And I think
• 1:20:53
  that's the consistency that we see often with
• 1:20:56
  scripture is it gives us the job description
• 1:20:58
  of the thing. Yeah, because the only thing. But
• 1:21:00
  it doesn't tell us what the thing is. Because
• 1:21:01
  the guy doesn't go, hey, I'm Bob. Right. It's
• 1:21:04
  more so like the observer is going this person
• 1:21:07
  or this thing is doing this. Yeah. So I'm going
• 1:21:10
  to call it what it's doing. Yes. Which that goes
• 1:21:14
  back to the question, like, are you your job
• 1:21:16
  or do you do your job? Yeah. Well, and actually
• 1:21:21
  even with that, it's like, well, humanity was
• 1:21:23
  part of the thing that we were given. Our title
• 1:21:26
  was to be image bearers. Correct. So it's like,
• 1:21:28
  oh, well, what are these things on earth? They're
• 1:21:31
  image bearers. Yes. That's their job, to image
• 1:21:34
  God. Yes. Yeah, and to build a replication of
• 1:21:39
  his kingdom on the earth. Yeah. Yes. Basically,
• 1:21:42
  to make it his kingdom. Yeah. Yeah. Through the
• 1:21:46
  image bearers of him. Yes. And so when we're
• 1:21:50
  not acting as image bearers, when we've denied
• 1:21:53
  God's employment, we say, hey, saw your offer,
• 1:21:58
  no thank you. We're actually saying, I don't
• 1:22:00
  want the job, so I'm going to get unemployed.
• 1:22:02
  Well, and through what happens to, again, King
• 1:22:05
  of Tyre, Ezekiel 28, those who do not do the
• 1:22:09
  job that they were created to do, their ultimate
• 1:22:13
  resting place is away from God, which is the
• 1:22:17
  depths of Sheol. Yeah. So that's true of all
• 1:22:20
  creation, all created beings who decide to not
• 1:22:27
  do the job God created them to do. Yeah. Which
• 1:22:31
  is why over and over again it's, I don't need
• 1:22:35
  you, like, I would rather you just obey my commands.
• 1:22:43
  then offer sacrifices because you're being disobedient
• 1:22:47
  yeah just do the job yeah instead of continuing
• 1:22:52
  to not do the job and say i'm sorry yeah if you
• 1:22:56
  would just do the job then we're good here we'd
• 1:22:59
  be okay yeah yeah but if you're not doing your
• 1:23:01
  job then you're quitting and you're there's a
• 1:23:06
  there's only one place you can go yeah it's out
• 1:23:09
  of Like it's out of active communion with me.
• 1:23:14
  Yes. It's not where I am not. And that's a different
• 1:23:17
  discussion. It's more so out of active blessing
• 1:23:22
  of being in communion, proper communion with
• 1:23:25
  me. Yeah. And we see even with like these other
• 1:23:29
  gods that try to make themselves to be Yahweh.
• 1:23:33
  It's like, well, they're looking at self -employment.
• 1:23:36
  Yeah. And God's saying like, that's not how this
• 1:23:38
  works around here. Yeah. They started their own
• 1:23:39
  businesses. Yeah. Yeah. And God's like, sure,
• 1:23:42
  but I'm going to destroy your business. Yeah.
• 1:23:44
  Like I'm Walmart. Yeah. I'm going to buy you
• 1:23:48
  out. But the fact is, is like the unfortunate
• 1:23:52
  thing in using that is like no one wants to work
• 1:23:57
  for Walmart. They want to work for themselves.
• 1:23:58
  Yeah. True. But. In the kingdom of God and the
• 1:24:01
  way that we were designed. That's a little bit
• 1:24:03
  fair. It's got a nicer look to it. You know,
• 1:24:07
  you want to work for the kingdom of God. Yes.
• 1:24:10
  Because it's not just like, this is something
• 1:24:13
  I'm choosing. It's you were created for it. Yeah.
• 1:24:17
  So what you're choosing is to not do what you
• 1:24:21
  were created for. Yeah. So there's nothing defined.
• 1:24:25
  No. It's like, hey, and I think that's the big
• 1:24:27
  thing where even while we're not. inside of scripture,
• 1:24:30
  it comes back to, we talked about this last time,
• 1:24:32
  we've talked about this before, it's like, what's
• 1:24:34
  the point of what it's saying? And it's like,
• 1:24:37
  well, the point of scripture is to tell you who
• 1:24:39
  you are, what happened, what you're supposed
• 1:24:41
  to do, and what God's done about it. And it's
• 1:24:44
  the same thing, it's like, he's not there to
• 1:24:46
  tell us like, okay, and this is how heaven works.
• 1:24:49
  And these are all of my employees. Yeah. And
• 1:24:51
  this is their jobs. This is even what they look
• 1:24:53
  like. Right. He's just like, no, no, no. Like
• 1:24:55
  there's glimpses into it because there's interplay.
• 1:24:58
  But really it's like the whole of it is say,
• 1:25:00
  this is what you're supposed to do. Right. It's
• 1:25:03
  basically, it's like our training manual. Yes.
• 1:25:06
  Of just like, this is how you're supposed to
• 1:25:08
  act and what you're supposed to do. And you could,
• 1:25:10
  you could almost even say that the guardian cherub
• 1:25:15
  not doing his job in the garden. whether that
• 1:25:18
  was or wasn't the ancient serpent, even the ancient
• 1:25:21
  serpent not doing his job in the garden was his
• 1:25:28
  actual, like not just him not doing his job,
• 1:25:33
  but a step further, he showed humanity that they
• 1:25:38
  don't have to function in what they were designed
• 1:25:40
  to function in. So the knowledge that was brought
• 1:25:43
  to them was the knowledge that they could, start
• 1:25:48
  their own business yeah and if they started their
• 1:25:51
  own business what they didn't realize is that
• 1:25:53
  they were created for a business and if they
• 1:25:56
  go out on their own then there's only a one place
• 1:26:01
  that that will end up yeah so it's like the the
• 1:26:05
  like the bad thing about the ancient serpent
• 1:26:08
  in some ways is not just that it's like You didn't
• 1:26:13
  do your job or you rebelled and you were disobedient
• 1:26:16
  and therefore your job title was stripped from
• 1:26:19
  you. But you also did it in front of humanity.
• 1:26:21
  Yeah. And because you did it in front of humanity,
• 1:26:24
  it's going to be worse for you. Yes. Because
• 1:26:27
  when you did it in front of humanity, humanity
• 1:26:29
  realized they could also do it. Yes. And they
• 1:26:32
  did. Yes. So you're responsible for humanity.
• 1:26:37
  And your own. And your own disobedience. Yeah.
• 1:26:41
  Well, it reminds me, I think this was in our
• 1:26:44
  near -death experience episode. Okay. Where even
• 1:26:49
  we talked about the accusers. Yeah. Because that's
• 1:26:52
  actually one where we do see like a change in
• 1:26:54
  job titles. Yeah. Where it's like pre -Christ,
• 1:26:57
  we see this especially in Job. It's like, well,
• 1:27:00
  there was a role that was called the accuser.
• 1:27:04
  Yes. And they were meant to go and accuse the
• 1:27:07
  righteous. Yeah. In front of God. Yeah. and be
• 1:27:10
  like, this is all the wrong they did. And they
• 1:27:12
  would have to repent from those things. But then
• 1:27:14
  we see post -Christ, oh, we don't actually need
• 1:27:17
  that job anymore. That role is null and void.
• 1:27:21
  So let me give you a different job. Because that
• 1:27:24
  job, we don't need it. We have Christ. Yeah,
• 1:27:26
  I like that. So then it is a job description.
• 1:27:31
  Does it encompass multiple species? We don't
• 1:27:34
  really know. Yeah, we actually have no clue.
• 1:27:37
  But we do have multiple descriptions of, beings
• 1:27:40
  in the title or within that job. So is it the
• 1:27:45
  same? There are similarities between those, but
• 1:27:47
  it is also possible. It's like, let's just say
• 1:27:50
  that it is literal what they're describing. I
• 1:27:53
  think that's a stretch to say that, that this
• 1:27:55
  is a literal description. It sounds like you
• 1:27:58
  got a new breed. But it also, I think maybe the
• 1:28:02
  way to frame it would be more so, are we supposed
• 1:28:05
  to look at it as a species? Or is the Bible describing
• 1:28:09
  it as a job? And the way it's describing it is
• 1:28:12
  as a job. Yeah, and I think I would agree with
• 1:28:15
  that. Yeah. Three, two, one.