Latest / Something Extra / The Power of Imperfection w/ Jim Brown

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The Power of Imperfection w/ Jim Brown · Something Extra

• 0:01
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 0:01
  Jim Brown: And I love what you point out is that if we don't understand what
• 0:05
  Jim Brown: we are uniquely able to bring, we can't be the best
• 0:09
  Jim Brown: leader, best person that we can be.
• 0:11
  Jim Brown: So we we need to understand ourselves more.
• 0:14
  Jim Brown: By the way, this comes back to blind spots.
• 0:17
  Jim Brown: The things that we do the best are so natural for us that
• 0:21
  Jim Brown: we don't even recognize them as strengths oftentimes.
• 0:25
  Jim Brown: And it's not until we've created the kind of relationships with people around up where they feel like it's safe for them to say, "You know what I love about you? It's when you do this. This is, this is the greatest strength you bring."
• 0:43
  Lisa Nichols: It takes something a little more to lead with impact.
• 0:47
  Lisa Nichols: I'm Lisa Nichols, author of Something Extra, and this podcast
• 0:51
  Lisa Nichols: was inspired by our daughter, Ali, whose additional chromosome has shaped
• 0:55
  Lisa Nichols: how I see people in leadership.
• 0:58
  Lisa Nichols: Each episode features conversations with inspiring leaders from around the world
• 1:02
  Lisa Nichols: about what truly defines how they lead and serve others.
• 1:06
  Lisa Nichols: If you enjoyed today's conversation, please consider leaving a five star
• 1:11
  Lisa Nichols: review.
• 1:11
  Lisa Nichols: It helps more people discover the show.
• 1:14
  Lisa Nichols: And if you'd like to go deeper, my book, Something Extra, is available on
• 1:18
  Lisa Nichols: Amazon and through other major book retailers.
• 1:23
  Lisa Nichols: Today, we welcome Jim Brown, author and cofounder of Org Health.
• 1:27
  Lisa Nichols: Jim is a veteran leadership consultant who spent fifteen years partnering with Patrick
• 1:31
  Lisa Nichols: Colincione to redefine corporate culture and team dynamics.
• 1:35
  Lisa Nichols: He is the author of the bestseller, The Imperfect Board Member, and his
• 1:39
  Lisa Nichols: recently released book, The Imperfect CEO, draws on thirty years
• 1:44
  Lisa Nichols: of in the trenches experience to show executives how to build healthy,
• 1:48
  Lisa Nichols: high performing cultures by embracing their own human limitations.
• 1:52
  Lisa Nichols: Welcome to the podcast, Jim Brown.
• 1:55
  Lisa Nichols: It's so good to see you today.
• 1:57
  Jim Brown: So good to be with you, Lisa.
• 1:59
  Jim Brown: I'm excited for the conversation we're gonna have.
• 2:02
  Jim Brown: I just feel there's so much that we are aligned with, and
• 2:06
  Jim Brown: it's gonna be energizing for us to talk and share about that.
• 2:10
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, I completely agree.
• 2:12
  Lisa Nichols: And I just have to give a shout out.
• 2:14
  Lisa Nichols: Canada.
• 2:15
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, Canada.
• 2:16
  Lisa Nichols: You're sitting in Canada.
• 2:17
  Lisa Nichols: I'm sitting in Saint Louis, Missouri.
• 2:19
  Lisa Nichols: I love technology.
• 2:21
  Jim Brown: And let's just, declare, we are happy to be partnering
• 2:25
  Jim Brown: with our friends in the US.
• 2:28
  Jim Brown: There's there's so much that we can do better together.
• 2:31
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, there is no doubt about that.
• 2:33
  Lisa Nichols: Well, I am like you said, I'm so excited.
• 2:37
  Lisa Nichols: I told you before we started, I said, I don't know, Jim.
• 2:40
  Lisa Nichols: I've got so much I wanna talk to you about.
• 2:41
  Lisa Nichols: I don't know how we're gonna get it all in, but we're gonna try.
• 2:45
  Lisa Nichols: And, you know, my my hope is that,
• 2:49
  Lisa Nichols: you know, you've got a book that just came out
• 2:52
  Jim Brown: called the Empire Strikes CEO.
• 2:54
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 2:55
  Lisa Nichols: And it is so good.
• 2:56
  Lisa Nichols: I would I had a preread of that, which I'm really grateful for,
• 3:01
  Lisa Nichols: but, there's just so much wisdom in there.
• 3:04
  Lisa Nichols: And so my hope is that, you know, our listeners will want
• 3:08
  Lisa Nichols: to go deeper, get the book, you know, follow you.
• 3:12
  Lisa Nichols: You're a speaker.
• 3:13
  Lisa Nichols: You're an organizational health coach.
• 3:15
  Lisa Nichols: All these kind of things.
• 3:16
  Lisa Nichols: So, that that's really my hope because there's just no way we can capture
• 3:20
  Lisa Nichols: you in one podcast, Jim.
• 3:23
  Lisa Nichols: So but, let's just get into it.
• 3:25
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, you have spent thirty plus years in boardrooms and with
• 3:29
  Lisa Nichols: CEOs.
• 3:30
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, you've been,
• 3:32
  Lisa Nichols: many times a board member, chair of boards.
• 3:36
  Lisa Nichols: I think you worked for Patrick Galiciano or with him in the table group
• 3:40
  Lisa Nichols: for, what, thirteen years?
• 3:42
  Jim Brown: I think it was fifteen years that I was a consulting partner, and and
• 3:45
  Jim Brown: we remain good friends.
• 3:47
  Jim Brown: I was interacting with him just recently.
• 3:49
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 3:50
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 3:50
  Lisa Nichols: Such a good guy.
• 3:51
  Lisa Nichols: He was, episode three hundred of the Something Extra podcast.
• 3:56
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 3:57
  Lisa Nichols: So, love love all of Patrick's work, but, you know, now
• 4:01
  Lisa Nichols: you're the founding partner for Organizational Health.
• 4:04
  Jim Brown: And and we just go by the short form, org health.
• 4:07
  Lisa Nichols: Org health.
• 4:08
  Jim Brown: We kind of made up a name.
• 4:09
  Lisa Nichols: Gotcha.
• 4:10
  Lisa Nichols: It makes sense.
• 4:11
  Lisa Nichols: Org health.
• 4:12
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 4:12
  Lisa Nichols: You know, but let me ask you this.
• 4:14
  Lisa Nichols: So what drew you first to this work of working with
• 4:19
  Lisa Nichols: CEOs and organizations and
• 4:21
  Jim Brown: It it's kind of a a crazy story, Lisa.
• 4:25
  Jim Brown: When I was nineteen years old, I had a job in a factory.
• 4:29
  Jim Brown: And I had arrived as a farm kid
• 4:33
  Jim Brown: that was used to getting up early in the morning and working because that's
• 4:37
  Jim Brown: normal life.
• 4:38
  Jim Brown: And I went to the off or to the factory and punched the clock.
• 4:43
  Jim Brown: I'm bushy tailed and bright eyed and good
• 4:47
  Jim Brown: morning to everybody,
• 4:49
  Jim Brown: but nobody is nearly like that.
• 4:51
  Jim Brown: Like, I'm getting some foul looks and,
• 4:54
  Lisa Nichols: Nobody was as enthusiastic
• 4:55
  Jim Brown: as he were joking.
• 4:57
  Jim Brown: And and what I discovered and I started to read about was
• 5:02
  Jim Brown: most people in our countries
• 5:05
  Jim Brown: actually hate their job.
• 5:06
  Jim Brown: And the idea that people spend the
• 5:11
  Jim Brown: majority of their waking lives doing something that they don't enjoy
• 5:15
  Jim Brown: seems like a tragedy to me.
• 5:18
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 5:18
  Jim Brown: And it's even more so the case, Lisa, because I've since discovered
• 5:22
  Jim Brown: that when leaders create the right culture, a healthy culture,
• 5:27
  Jim Brown: people can enjoy their job.
• 5:28
  Jim Brown: They can look forward to getting to work.
• 5:31
  Jim Brown: They feel
• 5:33
  Jim Brown: appreciated.
• 5:34
  Jim Brown: They feel like their contribution is, man meaningful
• 5:39
  Jim Brown: and important.
• 5:41
  Jim Brown: And then they go home, and they feel better about their life.
• 5:44
  Jim Brown: And that makes things better at home.
• 5:46
  Jim Brown: So
• 5:46
  Lisa Nichols: Absolutely.
• 5:48
  Jim Brown: This was a a discomfort
• 5:51
  Jim Brown: from before I was twenty, noticing too many people
• 5:55
  Jim Brown: don't like their lives.
• 5:57
  Jim Brown: But it turns out that if leaders took responsibility for creating
• 6:02
  Jim Brown: the right
• 6:04
  Jim Brown: context and space,
• 6:06
  Jim Brown: that can all be transformed.
• 6:08
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 6:08
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 6:09
  Lisa Nichols: And I know that that's what you're doing.
• 6:11
  Lisa Nichols: That's what you're helping, leaders and CEOs with.
• 6:15
  Lisa Nichols: You you know, you talk about, Jim, you talk about imperfect
• 6:20
  Lisa Nichols: leadership.
• 6:20
  Lisa Nichols: Let's just talk about the leaders.
• 6:21
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 6:22
  Lisa Nichols: What is this myth that we have that as a leader,
• 6:26
  Lisa Nichols: you have to be perfect?
• 6:27
  Lisa Nichols: You have to know it all, and, I've got a lot more questions around
• 6:31
  Lisa Nichols: that.
• 6:31
  Jim Brown: Sure.
• 6:32
  Jim Brown: Well, I think there's a lot of pressure and scripting in
• 6:36
  Jim Brown: our society that leaders are supposed to
• 6:40
  Jim Brown: be the all knowing types.
• 6:42
  Jim Brown: And and frankly, Lisa, it's it's even worse in our Christian world.
• 6:47
  Jim Brown: Because we look to Jesus as our example, and we we've heard Jesus
• 6:51
  Jim Brown: is perfect.
• 6:53
  Jim Brown: But we need to recognize that Jesus never called us to be
• 6:57
  Jim Brown: perfect.
• 6:58
  Jim Brown: He called us to be authentic.
• 7:00
  Jim Brown: He called us to be obedient.
• 7:03
  Jim Brown: He called us to recognize God as
• 7:07
  Jim Brown: the perfect father and Jesus as the perfect
• 7:13
  Jim Brown: savior, we are imperfect.
• 7:16
  Jim Brown: And he's okay with that actually.
• 7:18
  Jim Brown: He is working in us to continue to refine
• 7:22
  Jim Brown: us.
• 7:24
  Jim Brown: But
• 7:26
  Jim Brown: the problem is too many people in in leadership roles, especially Christians, feel
• 7:30
  Jim Brown: like they're supposed to show up like they know all the answers.
• 7:33
  Jim Brown: They have total confidence.
• 7:36
  Jim Brown: Don't worry.
• 7:37
  Jim Brown: You I've got you.
• 7:38
  Jim Brown: I've got this taken care of.
• 7:39
  Jim Brown: And it's just an unrealistic and unreasonable
• 7:44
  Jim Brown: weight to put on ourselves.
• 7:46
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 7:47
  Lisa Nichols: You said the operative word is a white.
• 7:49
  Lisa Nichols: It's a heaviness to feel that way.
• 7:51
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 7:52
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 7:53
  Lisa Nichols: Well and I think, you know, since you brought up,
• 7:57
  Lisa Nichols: you know, Jesus, you know, I'm I'm thinking about the verse.
• 8:00
  Lisa Nichols: The verse immediately popped into my head, Jim, that says his strength is
• 8:04
  Lisa Nichols: perfect in our weakness
• 8:07
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 8:08
  Lisa Nichols: Not in our strength.
• 8:09
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 8:10
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 8:10
  Lisa Nichols: And so, yeah, it's, we we are not
• 8:14
  Lisa Nichols: called to be perfect, but I love what you said.
• 8:16
  Lisa Nichols: We're called to be obedient.
• 8:17
  Lisa Nichols: We're called to be faithful.
• 8:19
  Lisa Nichols: We're called to recognize that he is the perfect one, and we need his
• 8:23
  Lisa Nichols: help.
• 8:23
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 8:23
  Lisa Nichols: So Indeed.
• 8:25
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 8:26
  Lisa Nichols: You know, what and and I wanna talk about this.
• 8:29
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, your book that just came out, it's a phenomenal book,
• 8:34
  Lisa Nichols: the imperfect CEO.
• 8:36
  Lisa Nichols: I love it.
• 8:37
  Lisa Nichols: But it's a fable, and it, it has it follows
• 8:41
  Lisa Nichols: a CEO David Slater.
• 8:43
  Lisa Nichols: And I love this because he gets really vulnerable.
• 8:47
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 8:47
  Lisa Nichols: At some point, Jim.
• 8:49
  Jim Brown: And this is this is the critical
• 8:53
  Jim Brown: leadership opportunity for everyone that's listening.
• 8:57
  Jim Brown: Again, we have this old mindset that we're supposed to show up
• 9:01
  Jim Brown: strong and able and confident.
• 9:05
  Jim Brown: And people think that vulnerability
• 9:08
  Jim Brown: betrays weakness
• 9:10
  Jim Brown: and shortfalls.
• 9:12
  Jim Brown: But what we're discovering, and people like Brene Brown, who have
• 9:17
  Jim Brown: has written so many great books and and done some great TED Talks,
• 9:21
  Jim Brown: are helping us to recognize, actually, it takes a lot of strength
• 9:26
  Jim Brown: to be vulnerable.
• 9:27
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 9:28
  Jim Brown: And by being
• 9:32
  Jim Brown: more comfortable with ourselves and our imperfection,
• 9:36
  Jim Brown: we invite everyone around us to recognize that they can
• 9:40
  Jim Brown: be safe and comfortable with their imperfection because we are all imperfect.
• 9:45
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 9:45
  Jim Brown: And now we start to actually work together.
• 9:48
  Jim Brown: Lisa, I have this picture in my mind that I believe is very
• 9:52
  Jim Brown: biblical.
• 9:53
  Jim Brown: I mean, we can think about Romans eight, for example.
• 9:57
  Jim Brown: Everyone has God given strengths, but we all
• 10:01
  Jim Brown: also have weaknesses.
• 10:02
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 10:02
  Lisa Nichols: And
• 10:02
  Jim Brown: if I would submit my weaknesses to my team
• 10:06
  Jim Brown: and allow them, invite them to bring their strengths
• 10:11
  Jim Brown: to cover my weaknesses,
• 10:13
  Jim Brown: now we have the best of all.
• 10:16
  Jim Brown: And it totally changes what's possible.
• 10:19
  Jim Brown: I believe this is actually God's design, that we need each other.
• 10:23
  Jim Brown: We're not supposed to be an island unto ourselves.
• 10:26
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 10:26
  Jim Brown: So if I can be vulnerable, then I am creating
• 10:31
  Jim Brown: space for people around me to be vulnerable,
• 10:35
  Jim Brown: to bring their
• 10:37
  Jim Brown: good questions, and I'm gonna receive those as reasonable
• 10:42
  Jim Brown: options to consider as opposed to being the one that feels like every
• 10:46
  Jim Brown: good answer needs to come from me.
• 10:48
  Jim Brown: No.
• 10:48
  Jim Brown: I I'm the leader.
• 10:50
  Jim Brown: I'm just responsible to try to make space for the best answers to
• 10:54
  Jim Brown: come to light and for the hardest questions to get asked so that we
• 10:58
  Jim Brown: can get the biggest problems solved.
• 11:01
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 11:02
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, I love the way you just said that, that you're supposed to make
• 11:06
  Lisa Nichols: the space for the best answers to come to light.
• 11:09
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 11:09
  Lisa Nichols: Not to have the best answers.
• 11:11
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 11:12
  Jim Brown: But if we've done a good job of attracting great people
• 11:16
  Jim Brown: to our company, we better have a bunch of people that know more than
• 11:20
  Jim Brown: we do.
• 11:20
  Jim Brown: That that's that's the whole point.
• 11:22
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 11:24
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 11:24
  Lisa Nichols: I so agree with that.
• 11:26
  Lisa Nichols: Well, I I do think that
• 11:29
  Lisa Nichols: I do think, like you said, though, vulnerability has been seen as a weakness,
• 11:34
  Lisa Nichols: right, in in the past.
• 11:35
  Lisa Nichols: It really has, but it takes, like you said, strength.
• 11:38
  Lisa Nichols: It takes courage.
• 11:39
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Lisa Nichols: It takes humility.
• 11:42
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 11:44
  Lisa Nichols: You know, Jim, in my book, Something Extra, humility is my very first chapter.
• 11:48
  Jim Brown: It's it's critical.
• 11:50
  Jim Brown: What a critical starting place.
• 11:53
  Jim Brown: And, again, what a Christ like starting place.
• 11:58
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 11:58
  Lisa Nichols: So good.
• 11:59
  Lisa Nichols: Well, let me ask you this.
• 12:03
  Lisa Nichols: You know, have you have you seen like, maybe I mean, I know you
• 12:07
  Lisa Nichols: you've got thirty plus years of working with CEOs and organizations.
• 12:11
  Lisa Nichols: Do you remember a story?
• 12:13
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, you don't have to obviously say the leader's name, but do you
• 12:16
  Lisa Nichols: remember a story where a leader did get very vulnerable
• 12:20
  Lisa Nichols: and it changed everything?
• 12:24
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 12:25
  Jim Brown: A lot of them, actually.
• 12:26
  Jim Brown: So so here's one.
• 12:29
  Jim Brown: I remember a a woman
• 12:33
  Jim Brown: in the role of CEO, and she had come in
• 12:37
  Jim Brown: after kind of a messy thing happened in this larger company.
• 12:43
  Jim Brown: So in some ways, she felt the pressure that she needed to turn
• 12:47
  Jim Brown: things around.
• 12:50
  Jim Brown: But rather than showing up as the, boy, I'm the smart person.
• 12:54
  Jim Brown: You you should be glad that I'm here.
• 12:57
  Jim Brown: She humbly began by saying,
• 13:01
  Jim Brown: I am so grateful to have the opportunity to work with
• 13:05
  Jim Brown: all of you.
• 13:07
  Jim Brown: You are the experts on this company.
• 13:10
  Jim Brown: You've lived here and worked here,
• 13:13
  Jim Brown: and I'm going to be leaning on you to help me learn about
• 13:18
  Jim Brown: our greatest strengths,
• 13:20
  Jim Brown: understand the challenges that we face, and
• 13:25
  Jim Brown: and
• 13:27
  Jim Brown: together solve the problems so that we can be great again.
• 13:32
  Jim Brown: And this this was so disarming to people because, you know,
• 13:37
  Jim Brown: in some people, you could see them in that first meeting with their arms
• 13:40
  Jim Brown: folded.
• 13:41
  Jim Brown: It's like, yeah.
• 13:42
  Jim Brown: Show me, like, you're gonna really be able to make the difference here.
• 13:47
  Jim Brown: But she didn't come with that mindset.
• 13:49
  Jim Brown: She came with a humility mindset.
• 13:52
  Jim Brown: And quickly, people started to,
• 13:57
  Jim Brown: engage with her, dare to believe that she was being truthful
• 14:02
  Jim Brown: about her how she was stand showing up, and meet her
• 14:06
  Jim Brown: there, which quickly created some momentum,
• 14:10
  Jim Brown: not with everyone, but with some people.
• 14:12
  Jim Brown: But that becomes infectious.
• 14:15
  Jim Brown: I'm sure you've seen this, Lisa, where
• 14:16
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 14:17
  Jim Brown: When when some relationships start to work and people realize,
• 14:21
  Jim Brown: oh,
• 14:29
  Jim Brown: And they know Frank, and they know that Frank has good ideas.
• 14:32
  Jim Brown: They probably also know that Frank has, kept a lot of ideas to himself
• 14:36
  Jim Brown: in the past.
• 14:37
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 14:38
  Jim Brown: But now they're seeing some credit go to Frank because
• 14:43
  Jim Brown: she is not needing to claim the credit.
• 14:46
  Jim Brown: She's generous in giving credit.
• 14:50
  Lisa Nichols: Okay.
• 14:51
  Lisa Nichols: This I wasn't planning on going here, but you just brought up something else
• 14:55
  Lisa Nichols: for me.
• 14:56
  Lisa Nichols: Why?
• 14:57
  Lisa Nichols: Because you do see that sometimes.
• 14:59
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 14:59
  Lisa Nichols: Where people take the credit.
• 15:01
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 15:01
  Lisa Nichols: You know, leaders take the credit for other people's work.
• 15:03
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 15:04
  Lisa Nichols: And the best leaders I've seen, Jim, are like, no.
• 15:08
  Lisa Nichols: This is this is the team.
• 15:09
  Lisa Nichols: The team is the one.
• 15:11
  Lisa Nichols: What is it inside the leader?
• 15:14
  Lisa Nichols: I've got my own ideas, but I wanna hear from you.
• 15:18
  Lisa Nichols: Why do we believe sometimes that leaders
• 15:22
  Lisa Nichols: feel like they need to have the credit?
• 15:23
  Lisa Nichols: And what you just said is she did not need that.
• 15:27
  Lisa Nichols: She did not need that to validate herself.
• 15:31
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 15:32
  Jim Brown: It's I I don't pretend to see myself as an armchair
• 15:36
  Jim Brown: psychologist.
• 15:37
  Jim Brown: I simply acknowledge that when people need
• 15:41
  Jim Brown: the credit Mhmm.
• 15:43
  Jim Brown: It betrays an insecurity that there is inside them.
• 15:47
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 15:48
  Jim Brown: Whereas, the the woman that I was using as the example in
• 15:52
  Jim Brown: this story, she had enough self worth
• 15:57
  Jim Brown: that that wasn't the credit that she needed.
• 16:00
  Jim Brown: The credit she needed was that she was investing wholeheartedly
• 16:05
  Jim Brown: in her people so that they could be the best they could be, which
• 16:08
  Jim Brown: would make the company the best it could be.
• 16:10
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 16:11
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 16:11
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
• 16:12
  Lisa Nichols: That is so good.
• 16:15
  Lisa Nichols: You know, we've kind of already talked about this, but, you know, this archetype
• 16:20
  Lisa Nichols: of hero
• 16:21
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 16:22
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 16:23
  Lisa Nichols: Versus being authentic.
• 16:26
  Lisa Nichols: You know, why what what does that kind of pressure
• 16:30
  Lisa Nichols: actually do to the culture when the the leader is like, I need
• 16:35
  Lisa Nichols: to be the archetype of a hero
• 16:37
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 16:38
  Lisa Nichols: Rather than authentic and
• 16:41
  Jim Brown: Unwittingly.
• 16:43
  Jim Brown: And and, again, I've worked with leaders that have had this
• 16:48
  Jim Brown: whatever, the the self
• 16:50
  Jim Brown: image, the pressure on themselves that they they need to have all the answers.
• 16:55
  Jim Brown: So I've been in rooms where a question would
• 16:59
  Jim Brown: get asked and everyone turns their head to the leader.
• 17:03
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 17:03
  Jim Brown: And they recognize everyone's waiting for them to speak, so they
• 17:08
  Jim Brown: share an answer.
• 17:11
  Jim Brown: I I debriefed with a client after that first meeting, and
• 17:15
  Jim Brown: that's how I like to begin my work is sit in a leadership meeting,
• 17:20
  Jim Brown: and see what happens.
• 17:21
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 17:22
  Jim Brown: So after this meeting was over, I I talked with her and I said,
• 17:26
  Jim Brown: did you notice what was happening when it whenever a question came up?
• 17:30
  Jim Brown: Oh, yeah.
• 17:31
  Jim Brown: People kinda look to me.
• 17:33
  Jim Brown: I have the answers.
• 17:35
  Jim Brown: And I said, right.
• 17:36
  Jim Brown: And what what does that do to the
• 17:41
  Jim Brown: the team and the company?
• 17:44
  Jim Brown: Well, I mean, somebody's gotta have the answers, so I,
• 17:48
  Jim Brown: you know, I guess I'm that person.
• 17:51
  Jim Brown: I said, well, what if what if there are some other answers?
• 17:55
  Jim Brown: What if you don't have the very, very best answer?
• 17:59
  Jim Brown: Do you recognize that
• 18:02
  Jim Brown: unintentionally,
• 18:04
  Jim Brown: you are telling everyone to hold their answers back
• 18:08
  Jim Brown: and just wait until you speak?
• 18:10
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 18:10
  Jim Brown: And by that, you become the bottleneck of the organization.
• 18:14
  Jim Brown: It can never be better than you are.
• 18:16
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 18:16
  Jim Brown: But what if they felt like you were interested in their
• 18:20
  Jim Brown: answers?
• 18:21
  Jim Brown: And the best answer was the answer that would get everyone's energy,
• 18:26
  Jim Brown: not your answer.
• 18:28
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 18:28
  Jim Brown: So my coaching, Lisa, was the next time a question
• 18:33
  Jim Brown: gets asked, I would like you to respond by saying, oh, that's an important
• 18:37
  Jim Brown: question.
• 18:38
  Jim Brown: What do you think we should do?
• 18:40
  Jim Brown: And refuse to give your answer until somebody else brings something
• 18:44
  Jim Brown: forward and build on that.
• 18:47
  Jim Brown: And it took months, actually, for change to happen in that
• 18:51
  Jim Brown: setting.
• 18:52
  Jim Brown: But eventually, it did.
• 18:54
  Jim Brown: And people started to bring their thoughts.
• 18:56
  Jim Brown: And
• 18:56
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 18:57
  Jim Brown: It's so much better.
• 18:58
  Jim Brown: See, it turns out that real leadership begins
• 19:02
  Jim Brown: when we stop pretending.
• 19:04
  Jim Brown: We stop pretending we're the all knowing person with all of the answers.
• 19:10
  Jim Brown: We surrender to the wisdom of
• 19:14
  Jim Brown: the team.
• 19:15
  Jim Brown: And, again, I'm gonna use my faith perspective.
• 19:18
  Jim Brown: I'm gonna dare to believe that God brought people around
• 19:22
  Jim Brown: me to be on my team.
• 19:25
  Jim Brown: If that's the case, I want to make all the room that
• 19:29
  Jim Brown: there is for them to bring their greatest strengths
• 19:33
  Jim Brown: to it rather than think I'm the person that
• 19:37
  Jim Brown: has all of it.
• 19:38
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 19:39
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good, Jim.
• 19:41
  Lisa Nichols: I was just thinking, as you were saying, that that that if you are
• 19:45
  Lisa Nichols: doing that, if if the team is looking to you, two things.
• 19:49
  Lisa Nichols: One is the team is gonna turn their brain off.
• 19:52
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 19:54
  Jim Brown: They stop thinking of an answer because they know that
• 19:56
  Lisa Nichols: They're gonna stop thinking.
• 19:58
  Lisa Nichols: They're gonna stop being creative.
• 19:59
  Lisa Nichols: They're gonna stop being innovative.
• 20:01
  Lisa Nichols: And that's not what you want.
• 20:03
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 20:03
  Lisa Nichols: That's not what you want.
• 20:04
  Jim Brown: The last thing you want.
• 20:05
  Lisa Nichols: That's the last thing
• 20:06
  Jim Brown: you want.
• 20:06
  Jim Brown: Every leader that I've worked with wants their innovative ideas.
• 20:10
  Lisa Nichols: Of course.
• 20:10
  Jim Brown: They just aren't noticing.
• 20:12
  Jim Brown: They aren't recognizing that unintentionally,
• 20:15
  Jim Brown: they are preventing that from happening.
• 20:18
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 20:19
  Lisa Nichols: I don't know if you know my friend, Bob Tidi.
• 20:22
  Lisa Nichols: Do you know Bob Tete?
• 20:24
  Lisa Nichols: No.
• 20:24
  Lisa Nichols: He wrote the book Leading with Questions.
• 20:27
  Jim Brown: Oh, that's a great title.
• 20:29
  Lisa Nichols: It's a great title and is such a great book.
• 20:33
  Lisa Nichols: But, you know, to your point, if that is happening,
• 20:37
  Lisa Nichols: really, just a very, the next thing you can do, like you said,
• 20:41
  Lisa Nichols: is to turn it around and say, what do you think?
• 20:46
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 20:46
  Lisa Nichols: And then Bob
• 20:48
  Lisa Nichols: Bob says you just keep drilling down.
• 20:50
  Lisa Nichols: Keep drilling down.
• 20:51
  Lisa Nichols: Well, what else?
• 20:53
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 20:53
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 20:54
  Lisa Nichols: Is there something else?
• 20:55
  Lisa Nichols: What next?
• 20:56
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 20:56
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, just keep asking the questions.
• 20:58
  Lisa Nichols: So, I just I love that.
• 21:01
  Lisa Nichols: That is so good.
• 21:04
  Lisa Nichols: What about this, Jim?
• 21:05
  Lisa Nichols: You've said that organizational health is both moral and strategic.
• 21:11
  Lisa Nichols: What do you mean by that?
• 21:13
  Jim Brown: So,
• 21:15
  Jim Brown: of course, let's start with strategic.
• 21:18
  Jim Brown: If we have people working together
• 21:22
  Jim Brown: and bringing their best ideas, their best energy, then
• 21:26
  Jim Brown: we have just
• 21:28
  Jim Brown: released or amplified all of the potential in the
• 21:32
  Jim Brown: company.
• 21:33
  Jim Brown: It is a remarkably strategic thing for a leader to do.
• 21:39
  Jim Brown: But that's come back to moral.
• 21:43
  Jim Brown: Leadership is about people, not stuff,
• 21:47
  Jim Brown: not dollars.
• 21:49
  Jim Brown: Of course, those things are all part of the picture, but
• 21:53
  Jim Brown: leadership is about people.
• 21:56
  Jim Brown: And if we have been charged with, privileged with
• 22:00
  Jim Brown: a leadership role, we need to accept responsibility
• 22:05
  Jim Brown: for people.
• 22:07
  Jim Brown: And I know that what God wants us to do
• 22:11
  Jim Brown: is see in people what God sees in them
• 22:15
  Jim Brown: and bring out the best that they have.
• 22:21
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 22:21
  Jim Brown: I I just think of so many conversations
• 22:25
  Jim Brown: I've had with people.
• 22:26
  Jim Brown: In fact, just last weekend, I I had a
• 22:30
  Jim Brown: incredibly energizing visit with Stephen M.
• 22:34
  Jim Brown: R.
• 22:34
  Jim Brown: Covey.
• 22:35
  Lisa Nichols: I love him.
• 22:36
  Jim Brown: Who wrote The Speed of Trust and his his latest book is Trust and
• 22:40
  Jim Brown: Inspire.
• 22:41
  Jim Brown: And and he beautifully talks about the leader's role is to
• 22:45
  Jim Brown: inspire people to be all in, to
• 22:49
  Jim Brown: bring the best ideas, bring their best version
• 22:53
  Jim Brown: of themselves, and be that person.
• 22:57
  Jim Brown: And it usually requires that we, as leaders, see it in them
• 23:02
  Jim Brown: even before they see it in themselves.
• 23:04
  Jim Brown: That is a moral
• 23:08
  Jim Brown: responsibility.
• 23:09
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 23:09
  Jim Brown: It's obligation.
• 23:10
  Lisa Nichols: Responsibility.
• 23:11
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 23:11
  Lisa Nichols: That is so good.
• 23:13
  Lisa Nichols: Well, let me ask you this.
• 23:15
  Lisa Nichols: Maybe there's a leader out there, and
• 23:19
  Lisa Nichols: how can they tell if their organization is unhealthy?
• 23:23
  Lisa Nichols: How can they tell?
• 23:24
  Lisa Nichols: What are some of the telltale signs, Jim, that they should look for?
• 23:29
  Jim Brown: Well, so this connects to the model that is presented
• 23:33
  Jim Brown: in the book, The American CEO.
• 23:35
  Jim Brown: We call it the org health ascent model.
• 23:37
  Jim Brown: That there are four peaks that every organization
• 23:42
  Jim Brown: has to climb in order to create a healthy organization.
• 23:46
  Jim Brown: And the peaks are, first, collaborative culture.
• 23:49
  Jim Brown: We have to begin by building that place where
• 23:53
  Jim Brown: people can bring their best ideas, their best questions,
• 23:59
  Jim Brown: and work together, rather than competing with each other.
• 24:02
  Jim Brown: And, oh, my goodness.
• 24:04
  Jim Brown: The the competition that happens in most organizations is alarming.
• 24:08
  Jim Brown: Collaborative culture brings us to leadership accountability.
• 24:13
  Jim Brown: And here, I'm not talking about leaders holding everyone accountable.
• 24:17
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 24:17
  Jim Brown: They they do need to do that.
• 24:20
  Jim Brown: But the more important piece is that leaders are holding themselves accountable.
• 24:24
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 24:25
  Jim Brown: They are
• 24:26
  Jim Brown: ensuring that everything they're asking of the people in the company,
• 24:31
  Jim Brown: they are exemplifying themselves.
• 24:34
  Jim Brown: So take collaborative culture.
• 24:36
  Jim Brown: Are they working together?
• 24:38
  Jim Brown: Or are they in contest with each other?
• 24:41
  Jim Brown: Is this division collaborating with the next division?
• 24:46
  Jim Brown: Or trying to look like they're better than the other division?
• 24:49
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 24:51
  Jim Brown: And a story I share from some client work I did many years ago,
• 24:55
  Jim Brown: is is a a company where they were
• 24:59
  Jim Brown: on the verge of being shut down by their global head office because
• 25:03
  Jim Brown: costs were higher than anywhere else in the world.
• 25:08
  Jim Brown: And they began to really work together to the point that
• 25:12
  Jim Brown: people leaders would offer up people in their
• 25:16
  Jim Brown: department to go and help where the need was greatest that week.
• 25:20
  Lisa Nichols: Wow.
• 25:21
  Jim Brown: And and people would just be moving.
• 25:22
  Jim Brown: And then they started voluntarily giving some of their budget
• 25:27
  Jim Brown: to where the need was the greatest.
• 25:29
  Jim Brown: And within a year, Lisa, this is so exciting
• 25:33
  Jim Brown: to be a part of this.
• 25:35
  Jim Brown: They went from being the highest cost manufacturer in their global
• 25:39
  Jim Brown: operations to the lowest cost manufacturer.
• 25:42
  Jim Brown: Wow.
• 25:43
  Jim Brown: That is the potential that's available.
• 25:46
  Jim Brown: But it requires that the division leaders, the top level leaders
• 25:52
  Jim Brown: truly collaborate, truly see that we are one working for the best
• 25:56
  Jim Brown: of all, as opposed to I'm gonna prove that I'm the rising
• 26:00
  Jim Brown: star in this in this company.
• 26:02
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 26:03
  Jim Brown: I'm gonna be accountable to demonstrate the behavior.
• 26:07
  Jim Brown: Nature Exactly.
• 26:08
  Lisa Nichols: And the behaviors that you want your people to to exhibit.
• 26:12
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 26:13
  Lisa Nichols: What are the other two?
• 26:14
  Jim Brown: So then it's strategic momentum where we have a very clear strategic
• 26:19
  Jim Brown: plan, and we are getting progressive
• 26:23
  Jim Brown: success in accomplishing that.
• 26:26
  Jim Brown: And then finally, the cap, the the crowning glory
• 26:30
  Jim Brown: is what we call talent magnetism.
• 26:34
  Jim Brown: This is when the culture is so healthy.
• 26:36
  Jim Brown: When people like their work so much, they're telling everyone else about
• 26:40
  Jim Brown: how great it is to work here.
• 26:42
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 26:42
  Jim Brown: And people are lining up for the opportunity.
• 26:47
  Jim Brown: We work with some companies, Lisa, that are spending millions of dollars
• 26:51
  Jim Brown: a year to attract and,
• 26:54
  Jim Brown: secure new people to work with them.
• 26:57
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 26:57
  Jim Brown: It's a huge difficult challenge that they work with.
• 27:01
  Jim Brown: But it it can be totally reversed to where your energy is trying
• 27:05
  Jim Brown: to decide who not to hire because there's so many people
• 27:09
  Jim Brown: eagerly waiting to join what you're doing.
• 27:13
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 27:13
  Lisa Nichols: Well and, Jim, if your people if your current people are so engaged
• 27:18
  Lisa Nichols: and they love it so much, what are they gonna do?
• 27:21
  Lisa Nichols: Like you said, they're gonna go tell their friends.
• 27:23
  Lisa Nichols: And then your recruiting and your talent magnetism cost
• 27:27
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 27:27
  Lisa Nichols: Goes down.
• 27:28
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 27:28
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 27:28
  Lisa Nichols: Because you got your internal people building the team that
• 27:32
  Lisa Nichols: they want.
• 27:33
  Jim Brown: They are the ambassadors.
• 27:35
  Jim Brown: And and they usually know the people you know, they tell their
• 27:39
  Jim Brown: friends, but they're also conscious that, oh, I've got some friends that shouldn't work
• 27:43
  Jim Brown: here.
• 27:44
  Jim Brown: No.
• 27:44
  Jim Brown: They're not gonna fit.
• 27:45
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 27:45
  Jim Brown: And and and they don't try to get them to come.
• 27:48
  Lisa Nichols: That's right.
• 27:48
  Jim Brown: So in a sense, they they are not just the magnets.
• 27:51
  Jim Brown: They're also helping be the filters so that you're only talking to the people
• 27:55
  Jim Brown: that are most applicable, most relevant for
• 27:59
  Jim Brown: your company.
• 28:00
  Lisa Nichols: That is so good, Jim.
• 28:02
  Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness.
• 28:02
  Lisa Nichols: I'm enjoying this so much.
• 28:04
  Lisa Nichols: But we do need to take a quick break, and we'll be right back
• 28:07
  Lisa Nichols: with my friend, Jim Brown, on the Something Extra podcast.
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• 28:41
  Lisa Nichols: Welcome back everyone to the something extra podcast with Jim Brown.
• 28:44
  Lisa Nichols: Boy, have we just been getting some gold from Jim today.
• 28:49
  Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much, Jim.
• 28:50
  Lisa Nichols: There's so much more here that I want to dig into, but, you know,
• 28:54
  Lisa Nichols: I know that you're known.
• 28:55
  Lisa Nichols: They say that you're known for helping leaders see what they cannot see.
• 28:59
  Lisa Nichols: And you had already mentioned this that, you know, we all have blind spots.
• 29:03
  Lisa Nichols: We we need to work from our strength zones, but we need to have
• 29:05
  Lisa Nichols: we all have blind spots.
• 29:06
  Lisa Nichols: Whether you believe you do or not, you do.
• 29:09
  Jim Brown: But Yeah.
• 29:10
  Jim Brown: We're blind to them.
• 29:11
  Jim Brown: That's the problem.
• 29:12
  Lisa Nichols: Blind to them.
• 29:13
  Lisa Nichols: That's the problem.
• 29:14
  Lisa Nichols: What is the common is there a common blind spot that you see in
• 29:18
  Lisa Nichols: high performing leaders?
• 29:21
  Jim Brown: I think there are a lot of leaders that would admit that sometimes they
• 29:25
  Jim Brown: feel like the last person to know what's happening in a company.
• 29:29
  Jim Brown: And
• 29:31
  Jim Brown: the blind spot attached to that is that they are telling
• 29:35
  Jim Brown: people not to tell them what's happening.
• 29:39
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 29:40
  Jim Brown: They they get some bad news.
• 29:43
  Jim Brown: And rather than being grateful for that insight,
• 29:47
  Jim Brown: they punish the messenger.
• 29:50
  Jim Brown: So why would that person want to deliver that bad news next
• 29:54
  Jim Brown: time?
• 29:55
  Jim Brown: They don't.
• 29:56
  Jim Brown: They talk about it off to the side where somebody's
• 30:00
  Jim Brown: listening, but, usually, those are the people that can't do anything about it.
• 30:05
  Jim Brown: What a mess that we are in if we are
• 30:09
  Jim Brown: unintentionally telling people, don't tell us what's really happening, and
• 30:13
  Jim Brown: then we wonder why we don't know what's going on.
• 30:16
  Lisa Nichols: Well, Jim, I love that.
• 30:17
  Lisa Nichols: And it reminds me when you were saying that, it reminds me of one
• 30:20
  Lisa Nichols: of my when I was at McDonnell Douglas, my boss's boss.
• 30:25
  Lisa Nichols: This is a a a mantra of his, max I
• 30:29
  Lisa Nichols: think, you know, and and it's his.
• 30:30
  Lisa Nichols: I've never heard this before, but he said, come to me early, and you
• 30:34
  Lisa Nichols: have a coach.
• 30:36
  Lisa Nichols: Come to me late, and you have a judge.
• 30:39
  Jim Brown: Wow.
• 30:39
  Jim Brown: I love it.
• 30:40
  Lisa Nichols: His name was Don Imholtz.
• 30:42
  Lisa Nichols: He ended up being the CIO for Boeing, but he
• 30:46
  Lisa Nichols: really did.
• 30:46
  Lisa Nichols: He said, I want to hear it all.
• 30:49
  Lisa Nichols: And and he lived that too, Jim.
• 30:51
  Lisa Nichols: He did because then he after he retired from Boeing, he went on to
• 30:55
  Lisa Nichols: be the CIO of another large company, and we were a partner.
• 30:59
  Lisa Nichols: And I remember Don just calling me one day and said, Lisa, I need
• 31:03
  Lisa Nichols: you to tell me the good, bad, and the ugly.
• 31:05
  Lisa Nichols: And it wasn't to punish
• 31:07
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 31:08
  Lisa Nichols: But it was to understand so that he could help with a
• 31:12
  Lisa Nichols: solution earlier.
• 31:13
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 31:14
  Lisa Nichols: So
• 31:14
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 31:15
  Lisa Nichols: I just I love that.
• 31:17
  Lisa Nichols: And so I think
• 31:18
  Jim Brown: So that that reminds me of a an important piece, and that is that
• 31:22
  Jim Brown: clarity,
• 31:25
  Jim Brown: is crucial.
• 31:27
  Jim Brown: And it turns out that confusion is actually
• 31:32
  Jim Brown: a a threat to culture.
• 31:34
  Jim Brown: Two two that I would highlight.
• 31:35
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 31:35
  Jim Brown: Confusion and avoidance.
• 31:38
  Jim Brown: These are the biggest threats.
• 31:40
  Jim Brown: And what we find too often is that we we don't
• 31:44
  Jim Brown: get clarity.
• 31:45
  Jim Brown: We we have incomplete information.
• 31:48
  Jim Brown: People nod, like, yeah.
• 31:50
  Jim Brown: That's true.
• 31:51
  Jim Brown: But nod doesn't mean it's all the whole story.
• 31:54
  Jim Brown: It means that's all they feel safe to say right now.
• 31:58
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 31:58
  Jim Brown: So then it turns out that we're confused about what's happening,
• 32:02
  Jim Brown: and we're avoiding dealing with the real problems.
• 32:06
  Jim Brown: Leaders have to get
• 32:08
  Jim Brown: past that.
• 32:09
  Jim Brown: They have to figure out how do we minimize confusion, therefore,
• 32:13
  Jim Brown: maximize clarity.
• 32:15
  Jim Brown: And how do we have the courage to have the hard conversations?
• 32:20
  Jim Brown: Because, Lisa, I believe hard conversations are the entrance fee
• 32:25
  Jim Brown: to a healthy leadership
• 32:28
  Jim Brown: arrangement.
• 32:28
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 32:29
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, that's so good.
• 32:31
  Lisa Nichols: Well, I wanna let's talk just a little bit.
• 32:34
  Lisa Nichols: I've got, like, goodness gracious.
• 32:36
  Lisa Nichols: I've got so many questions here even about your book.
• 32:39
  Lisa Nichols: I really want our listeners to go out and,
• 32:43
  Lisa Nichols: and get your book.
• 32:45
  Lisa Nichols: You know, it is a fable.
• 32:46
  Lisa Nichols: It follows David Slater.
• 32:48
  Lisa Nichols: He has a strong track record of success, begins struggling with
• 32:52
  Lisa Nichols: the culture.
• 32:53
  Lisa Nichols: And I'm gonna highlight this again because you say in there
• 32:57
  Lisa Nichols: that the moment that he said, I don't know how to fix
• 33:02
  Lisa Nichols: this, was the moment that transformation really started to happen.
• 33:06
  Jim Brown: That's the turning point.
• 33:07
  Jim Brown: That's that's where we're inviting other people to help solve problems
• 33:12
  Jim Brown: rather than need to be the hero or unconsciously
• 33:16
  Jim Brown: be the hero.
• 33:17
  Jim Brown: I'm not saying people are always aiming to be the hero.
• 33:20
  Jim Brown: They just unwittingly are operating as if that's the way it's supposed
• 33:25
  Jim Brown: to
• 33:25
  Lisa Nichols: be.
• 33:26
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 33:26
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 33:27
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, how you know, what what would you say?
• 33:30
  Lisa Nichols: Because I do believe self awareness.
• 33:32
  Lisa Nichols: I talk about self awareness in my book.
• 33:33
  Lisa Nichols: That's kind of its you know, the beginning of my book is it starts
• 33:37
  Lisa Nichols: on the inside.
• 33:38
  Lisa Nichols: It starts with a leader.
• 33:40
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 33:40
  Jim Brown: And I love what you point out is that if we don't understand what
• 33:44
  Jim Brown: we are uniquely able to bring, we can't be the best
• 33:48
  Jim Brown: leader, best person that we can be.
• 33:51
  Jim Brown: So we we need to understand ourselves more.
• 33:53
  Jim Brown: By the way, this comes back to blind spots.
• 33:56
  Jim Brown: The things that we do the best are so natural for us that
• 34:00
  Jim Brown: we don't even recognize them as strengths oftentimes.
• 34:04
  Jim Brown: And it's not until we've created the kind of relationships with people
• 34:08
  Jim Brown: around us where they
• 34:11
  Jim Brown: feel like it's safe for them to say, you know what I love about
• 34:14
  Jim Brown: you?
• 34:15
  Jim Brown: It's when you do this.
• 34:17
  Jim Brown: This is this is the greatest strength you bring.
• 34:20
  Jim Brown: And they're not feeling like they're making themselves look smaller when they're making
• 34:24
  Jim Brown: us feel better about who we are, because they know
• 34:28
  Jim Brown: we're not gonna make them look small by being better
• 34:32
  Jim Brown: in that Mhmm.
• 34:33
  Jim Brown: One way.
• 34:34
  Jim Brown: No.
• 34:35
  Jim Brown: I have a strength.
• 34:37
  Jim Brown: Thank you God for that strength.
• 34:38
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 34:40
  Jim Brown: And you have strengths, and I'm thankful that you're part of the team.
• 34:43
  Jim Brown: We're all gonna work together.
• 34:44
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 34:45
  Lisa Nichols: It's it's really beautiful.
• 34:47
  Lisa Nichols: It's a tapestry.
• 34:48
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 34:49
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, it really is if you if you think about it that way.
• 34:53
  Lisa Nichols: You mentioned Stephen M.
• 34:54
  Lisa Nichols: R.
• 34:55
  Lisa Nichols: Covey, and I love, leadership at the speed of trust.
• 34:59
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 34:59
  Lisa Nichols: I do believe trust is
• 35:03
  Lisa Nichols: the currency that we need.
• 35:05
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 35:06
  Lisa Nichols: But, you know, what are the things that you've seen, Jim,
• 35:10
  Lisa Nichols: that diminish trust?
• 35:13
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 35:13
  Lisa Nichols: And then what are those key things that really build trust
• 35:18
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 35:19
  Lisa Nichols: In the team.
• 35:22
  Jim Brown: Well, an angle that Steven really does a great job
• 35:26
  Jim Brown: of helping us with is talking about trust from both sides.
• 35:29
  Jim Brown: So on one hand, we should all be trustworthy.
• 35:34
  Jim Brown: So we need to follow through on the things that we say we're gonna
• 35:38
  Jim Brown: do.
• 35:38
  Jim Brown: We need to,
• 35:40
  Jim Brown: demonstrate character that that we're
• 35:44
  Jim Brown: we can be trusted because we will be
• 35:48
  Jim Brown: consistent in how we show up.
• 35:53
  Jim Brown: I think we've overestimated not estimated, overemphasized
• 35:57
  Jim Brown: trustworthiness.
• 35:59
  Jim Brown: Of course, it's important.
• 36:01
  Jim Brown: But what Steven really gets at is trusting,
• 36:05
  Jim Brown: as in learning to trust people
• 36:09
  Jim Brown: as an act of leadership.
• 36:11
  Jim Brown: So in our leadership team, are we going to
• 36:15
  Jim Brown: trust that people are bringing
• 36:18
  Jim Brown: their ideas, because they have thought them through?
• 36:22
  Jim Brown: And they do believe that these are ideas worthy
• 36:27
  Jim Brown: of us to explore.
• 36:30
  Jim Brown: Rather than questioning that and there's something about our Western culture,
• 36:34
  Jim Brown: Lisa, that has promoted that we start by
• 36:39
  Jim Brown: questioning everything.
• 36:41
  Jim Brown: And and Stephen Stephen says, turn that around
• 36:45
  Jim Brown: and start by daring to believe in the person
• 36:50
  Jim Brown: and believe that they're gonna be bringing their best and doing their
• 36:54
  Jim Brown: best.
• 36:56
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 36:56
  Jim Brown: We are gonna continue to work with them, and if they demonstrate they aren't,
• 37:00
  Jim Brown: then we have to help them rise to the best they can be.
• 37:04
  Jim Brown: But unintentionally, by questioning that
• 37:08
  Jim Brown: and essentially not trusting them to start,
• 37:12
  Jim Brown: then unconsciously, they don't trust us even though we're trustworthy.
• 37:17
  Jim Brown: But because we're not being trusting, they're not trusting in response.
• 37:21
  Jim Brown: So trust is a a curious dynamic that is
• 37:26
  Jim Brown: almost fluid.
• 37:28
  Jim Brown: And, yes, if we would embrace, of course, we're gonna be trustworthy.
• 37:34
  Jim Brown: But as leaders, can we be at the front of the
• 37:38
  Jim Brown: line in demonstrating that we are trusting?
• 37:42
  Jim Brown: Trusting in the people that are around us.
• 37:44
  Jim Brown: Trusting God that he has brought the right people to us.
• 37:49
  Jim Brown: That, that he's giving us the opportunities that we need.
• 37:53
  Jim Brown: So, yes, I
• 37:54
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
• 37:55
  Jim Brown: Pray we could be.
• 37:56
  Lisa Nichols: Trust I pray we can too, and, we could probably do a whole podcast
• 38:00
  Lisa Nichols: on this, Jim.
• 38:01
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 38:01
  Lisa Nichols: Because, you know, right now, you know, I've got three adult children,
• 38:06
  Lisa Nichols: and this applies to parenting.
• 38:07
  Jim Brown: Oh, yeah?
• 38:09
  Lisa Nichols: It really does.
• 38:10
  Lisa Nichols: Because if you're questioning every decision,
• 38:14
  Lisa Nichols: you know, I mean, I'm Yeah.
• 38:16
  Lisa Nichols: Really, I mean, your your child, your adult child does not
• 38:20
  Lisa Nichols: believe that you believe then that they can make good decisions.
• 38:24
  Lisa Nichols: And, yeah, I mean, it really applies.
• 38:27
  Lisa Nichols: It's a cure like you said, it's a curious thing.
• 38:29
  Lisa Nichols: We could probably do a whole podcast on that trusting other people.
• 38:34
  Lisa Nichols: No.
• 38:34
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, people are gonna make mistakes.
• 38:37
  Lisa Nichols: Yep.
• 38:37
  Lisa Nichols: We all are.
• 38:38
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 38:39
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 38:40
  Lisa Nichols: So just go into it with eyes wide open.
• 38:44
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, people are gonna make mistakes, but, you know, when you, let's
• 38:48
  Lisa Nichols: talk about that.
• 38:49
  Lisa Nichols: So psychological safety
• 38:52
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 38:52
  Lisa Nichols: Like, even innovation.
• 38:53
  Lisa Nichols: We talk about that with technology.
• 38:55
  Lisa Nichols: You've got to create an atmosphere where people are not afraid
• 39:00
  Lisa Nichols: to fail Right.
• 39:02
  Lisa Nichols: And and not afraid to experiment.
• 39:04
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 39:05
  Lisa Nichols: Because there is no innovation.
• 39:07
  Lisa Nichols: You're not gonna get it right every time.
• 39:09
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 39:11
  Jim Brown: So so let's let's drill into that more because Yeah.
• 39:14
  Jim Brown: Again, I believe the leader needs to take responsibility
• 39:19
  Jim Brown: for creating psychological safety.
• 39:21
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 39:21
  Jim Brown: What are some ways that we do that?
• 39:24
  Jim Brown: We
• 39:27
  Jim Brown: we are more transparent with our team
• 39:31
  Jim Brown: about our real life.
• 39:33
  Jim Brown: This is this is one on the very edge, Lisa.
• 39:36
  Jim Brown: Because we have tended to compartmentalize.
• 39:40
  Jim Brown: We're at work, so it's only gonna be about work.
• 39:42
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 39:43
  Jim Brown: Whereas,
• 39:45
  Jim Brown: what we can do is say,
• 39:48
  Jim Brown: hey, gang.
• 39:49
  Jim Brown: Let me just admit to you, I'm not gonna be my best today.
• 39:53
  Jim Brown: I apologize.
• 39:55
  Jim Brown: There's some things happening with my daughter.
• 39:58
  Jim Brown: I'm making this up right now.
• 39:59
  Jim Brown: But imagine Why?
• 40:00
  Jim Brown: And,
• 40:02
  Jim Brown: probably every every other minute, my thoughts are going to what's
• 40:06
  Jim Brown: going on with her.
• 40:07
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 40:08
  Jim Brown: So, hey, I'm I'm not asking for you to solve any of those problems.
• 40:12
  Jim Brown: I'm just admitting that that's going on in my head.
• 40:14
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 40:15
  Jim Brown: Please, forgive me if I'm not as engaged as
• 40:19
  Jim Brown: would be best.
• 40:21
  Jim Brown: People people only respond with grace to that.
• 40:24
  Jim Brown: They they don't they don't judge and say, well, you shouldn't have had a
• 40:28
  Jim Brown: daughter.
• 40:29
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 40:29
  Jim Brown: No one says that.
• 40:31
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 40:31
  Jim Brown: Okay.
• 40:32
  Jim Brown: So there's stuff happening.
• 40:33
  Jim Brown: And then if I'm a little in fact, I remember a great
• 40:38
  Jim Brown: example where,
• 40:40
  Jim Brown: this was in a board meeting.
• 40:42
  Jim Brown: And one of the persons, shared that his daughter was going
• 40:46
  Jim Brown: through a divorce, and it was ruining her.
• 40:50
  Jim Brown: It it was the worst thing that she's experienced.
• 40:53
  Lisa Nichols: Pain.
• 40:54
  Jim Brown: And by by
• 40:57
  Jim Brown: as a dad, he said, therefore, it's the worst thing for me.
• 41:01
  Jim Brown: Later in the meeting, he was a bit owly.
• 41:06
  Jim Brown: You know, he would snap at people
• 41:10
  Jim Brown: and and but everyone in the room was fine because they
• 41:14
  Jim Brown: realized he was snapping because of something else happening in
• 41:18
  Jim Brown: his life.
• 41:18
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 41:19
  Jim Brown: It's nothing to do with the person who's sitting across the table.
• 41:23
  Jim Brown: And it wouldn't have been like that if he hadn't have been open
• 41:27
  Jim Brown: at the beginning of our meeting.
• 41:29
  Jim Brown: They would have thought, why is he so angry and think that his idea
• 41:33
  Jim Brown: is the only idea that matters?
• 41:35
  Jim Brown: Why is he so argumentative?
• 41:38
  Jim Brown: I've got good ideas too.
• 41:39
  Jim Brown: No.
• 41:39
  Jim Brown: It's not even about that.
• 41:42
  Lisa Nichols: They knew immediately that it was not that he had something else going on.
• 41:46
  Lisa Nichols: And so just, yeah, admitting those things and being transparent about it, I think
• 41:50
  Lisa Nichols: is
• 41:50
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 41:51
  Jim Brown: So go to that.
• 41:53
  Jim Brown: Do that.
• 41:53
  Jim Brown: Admit mistakes.
• 41:56
  Jim Brown: Ask for help.
• 41:57
  Jim Brown: Apologize.
• 41:59
  Jim Brown: These are the kinds of simple actions that
• 42:03
  Jim Brown: transform how people experience the group, hopefully,
• 42:07
  Jim Brown: the the team.
• 42:09
  Jim Brown: And it starts to feel like, oh, you admit mistakes?
• 42:13
  Jim Brown: I I have mistakes.
• 42:14
  Jim Brown: I make mistakes too.
• 42:16
  Jim Brown: Oh, you need help?
• 42:19
  Jim Brown: Really?
• 42:19
  Jim Brown: It's okay to need help?
• 42:20
  Jim Brown: You're not supposed to be able to do everything?
• 42:24
  Jim Brown: Now we've got safety.
• 42:25
  Jim Brown: Now a person can share.
• 42:29
  Jim Brown: Hey, gang.
• 42:30
  Jim Brown: Here we are.
• 42:31
  Jim Brown: We are four weeks into our ten week push, and
• 42:35
  Jim Brown: I feel like I'm already behind in my department.
• 42:40
  Jim Brown: Here's what's happening.
• 42:42
  Jim Brown: I don't know what to do about it.
• 42:46
  Jim Brown: What that is saying is, does anyone in the room know what I could
• 42:50
  Jim Brown: do?
• 42:50
  Jim Brown: Could you help me?
• 42:52
  Jim Brown: And when we start to lean in and assist one another,
• 42:56
  Jim Brown: now we're starting to function like a team rather than a group that's
• 43:01
  Jim Brown: all coming around the leader to report.
• 43:04
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 43:04
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good, Jim.
• 43:06
  Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness.
• 43:07
  Lisa Nichols: So good.
• 43:07
  Lisa Nichols: So good.
• 43:10
  Lisa Nichols: Well, let's talk about this.
• 43:12
  Lisa Nichols: Let's pivot a little bit.
• 43:13
  Lisa Nichols: You made a decision early on in your career to prioritize
• 43:18
  Lisa Nichols: your family.
• 43:19
  Lisa Nichols: You have, five adult children.
• 43:21
  Lisa Nichols: I think at least seven grandchildren, at least.
• 43:24
  Lisa Nichols: Maybe more now.
• 43:25
  Jim Brown: Each one is coming in a couple
• 43:26
  Lisa Nichols: more months.
• 43:27
  Lisa Nichols: Congratulations.
• 43:28
  Lisa Nichols: That's awesome.
• 43:30
  Lisa Nichols: You know, what really shaped that decision for you?
• 43:34
  Jim Brown: So I had
• 43:37
  Jim Brown: years and years ago, I was part of something called the Enjoy
• 43:41
  Jim Brown: Life Club.
• 43:43
  Jim Brown: Every month, we would get a tape from John Maxwell.
• 43:46
  Jim Brown: And he would do a leadership lesson with his team, and we'd listen
• 43:50
  Jim Brown: in, so to speak.
• 43:52
  Jim Brown: And he had shared early in his career that he interviewed
• 43:57
  Jim Brown: pastors to learn how to be a great pastor.
• 44:01
  Jim Brown: And I thought, what a brilliant idea.
• 44:04
  Jim Brown: So I started to interview and this is in my early
• 44:08
  Jim Brown: twenties.
• 44:09
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 44:09
  Jim Brown: Interview CEOs that I looked up to and thought, oh, I would like to
• 44:13
  Jim Brown: be a successful CEO like this person.
• 44:18
  Jim Brown: A very unexpected and uncomfortable
• 44:22
  Jim Brown: discovery was made early, like, probably eight
• 44:26
  Jim Brown: interviews in.
• 44:28
  Jim Brown: I noticed this pattern that all of these successful CEOs
• 44:33
  Jim Brown: had failed marriages and disenfranchised
• 44:38
  Jim Brown: families.
• 44:38
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 44:40
  Jim Brown: And it it it struck my soul.
• 44:43
  Jim Brown: It it's like, oh my goodness.
• 44:46
  Jim Brown: I want to be successful like that, but I want
• 44:50
  Jim Brown: the bigger package.
• 44:51
  Jim Brown: I want to be successful at home.
• 44:54
  Jim Brown: It meant that I had to take a different path.
• 44:56
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 44:57
  Jim Brown: I couldn't be all in on whatever
• 45:02
  Jim Brown: the business requires.
• 45:04
  Jim Brown: Indeed, I was all in on what the family requires,
• 45:09
  Jim Brown: and I'm so thankful that
• 45:12
  Jim Brown: I I love my kids.
• 45:14
  Jim Brown: I love the lives that we share together.
• 45:19
  Jim Brown: I'm glad that I don't have a lot of regret
• 45:23
  Jim Brown: about how my thirty years of career had unfolded.
• 45:27
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 45:28
  Lisa Nichols: Well, there's so much that that reminds me of, Jim.
• 45:31
  Lisa Nichols: You know, What is it if you win the world and lose your own
• 45:35
  Lisa Nichols: soul?
• 45:35
  Lisa Nichols: I'm thinking Randy Grabit,
• 45:38
  Lisa Nichols: winning at home, Corey Carlson.
• 45:41
  Lisa Nichols: There's a lot that say that.
• 45:42
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 45:43
  Lisa Nichols: That what is it if you gain all of this, but then you lose
• 45:47
  Lisa Nichols: your family?
• 45:48
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 45:48
  Lisa Nichols: And so but there's some intentional things that
• 45:52
  Lisa Nichols: you have to do, though, right, to prioritize.
• 45:55
  Lisa Nichols: You you probably had to say no to a lot of things, Jim.
• 45:58
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 45:59
  Jim Brown: And I had to
• 46:03
  Jim Brown: make investments that, meant other things were not getting
• 46:07
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 46:08
  Jim Brown: Investment.
• 46:09
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 46:09
  Jim Brown: Like, I would I would try to take the family
• 46:14
  Jim Brown: with me on certain
• 46:16
  Jim Brown: corporate events I was going to.
• 46:18
  Jim Brown: I remember
• 46:20
  Jim Brown: years ago my goodness.
• 46:21
  Jim Brown: This is probably twenty years ago.
• 46:24
  Jim Brown: And we all flew to a to Minneapolis
• 46:28
  Jim Brown: and then drove up to a lake, resort
• 46:32
  Jim Brown: in in, Minnesota and had I was I
• 46:36
  Jim Brown: was working at a a leadership event, but my whole family was with
• 46:40
  Jim Brown: me and they experienced the living on the lake resort sort
• 46:45
  Jim Brown: of feel for that week.
• 46:46
  Jim Brown: And
• 46:48
  Jim Brown: I don't think I had any money left over from all
• 46:52
  Jim Brown: that they paid me.
• 46:53
  Jim Brown: It was, like, for nothing, so to speak.
• 46:56
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 46:56
  Jim Brown: Except it wasn't.
• 46:57
  Jim Brown: It was forever, actually.
• 46:59
  Jim Brown: Because my kids still laugh and talk about
• 47:03
  Lisa Nichols: that experience.
• 47:04
  Jim Brown: Being on the boat, on the lake, and doing things that they had never
• 47:07
  Jim Brown: done before.
• 47:08
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 47:09
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, I love that so much.
• 47:11
  Lisa Nichols: I love that.
• 47:12
  Lisa Nichols: Well, I know that you're a faith filled man.
• 47:16
  Jim Brown: How do you God is the center of my life for children.
• 47:18
  Lisa Nichols: Amen.
• 47:18
  Lisa Nichols: Amen.
• 47:21
  Lisa Nichols: How do you, you know, what what what's faith meant
• 47:25
  Lisa Nichols: to you?
• 47:25
  Lisa Nichols: And, I mean, how does it really inform leadership?
• 47:32
  Jim Brown: Well,
• 47:34
  Jim Brown: you talked about how we could do a whole podcast on a different topic.
• 47:37
  Jim Brown: There's another whole podcast.
• 47:40
  Jim Brown: Let me let me first say that
• 47:44
  Jim Brown: faith is very personal.
• 47:46
  Jim Brown: I don't mean in a sense of we shouldn't talk about it with others.
• 47:50
  Jim Brown: I mean, it it better be very personal,
• 47:55
  Jim Brown: not just something that's,
• 47:57
  Jim Brown: whatever cultural or generational.
• 48:07
  Jim Brown: You know that verse that talks about,
• 48:11
  Jim Brown: perfect love casts out
• 48:14
  Lisa Nichols: Cuts out fear.
• 48:15
  Lisa Nichols: Fear.
• 48:16
  Lisa Nichols: And mhmm.
• 48:17
  Jim Brown: And and this these implication seems to be
• 48:21
  Jim Brown: we shouldn't be fearing or we are therefore lacking
• 48:26
  Jim Brown: faith.
• 48:26
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 48:27
  Jim Brown: This is me being vulnerable with you, Lisa.
• 48:32
  Jim Brown: There was a period in my life where I tried
• 48:36
  Jim Brown: to tell myself I didn't fear anything because I'm faithful.
• 48:41
  Jim Brown: And
• 48:42
  Jim Brown: it was a lie to myself because there was
• 48:47
  Jim Brown: fear inside,
• 48:49
  Jim Brown: and I wasn't actually giving that to God.
• 48:52
  Jim Brown: I was cramping it down, like Mhmm.
• 48:55
  Jim Brown: Stomping it down.
• 48:57
  Jim Brown: And what I've personally had to learn to do
• 49:01
  Jim Brown: is acknowledge there's a lot of times when I'm afraid.
• 49:05
  Jim Brown: There's a lot of times when I'm in doubt.
• 49:08
  Jim Brown: But thank you, Jesus, that you are my comforter, my
• 49:12
  Jim Brown: savior, my companion.
• 49:14
  Jim Brown: I'm gonna admit this to you and invite you
• 49:19
  Jim Brown: to direct me, sometimes to carry me, certainly
• 49:24
  Jim Brown: to protect me.
• 49:26
  Jim Brown: And I am thankful that I have a lot of
• 49:31
  Jim Brown: hard earned stories for myself of how
• 49:35
  Jim Brown: God has met me in those in those times.
• 49:38
  Jim Brown: No.
• 49:38
  Jim Brown: I'm so sorry.
• 49:39
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 49:40
  Jim Brown: So
• 49:42
  Jim Brown: that's all that's all inside.
• 49:45
  Jim Brown: And, you know, I try to share about this more and more with my
• 49:48
  Jim Brown: wife and a couple of close friends, but, it has
• 49:53
  Jim Brown: to be inside first.
• 49:54
  Jim Brown: We have to Mhmm.
• 49:55
  Jim Brown: We have to do the work.
• 49:56
  Jim Brown: Faith is a personal journey.
• 50:00
  Jim Brown: Then the bigger piece of
• 50:03
  Jim Brown: now we are in a position of responsibility in leadership,
• 50:10
  Jim Brown: in a sense, that better scare us a bit.
• 50:13
  Jim Brown: It better make us
• 50:14
  Lisa Nichols: Tremendous responsibility.
• 50:16
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 50:17
  Jim Brown: Therefore, Jesus, help me.
• 50:21
  Jim Brown: Help me see what I don't naturally see.
• 50:24
  Jim Brown: Help me catch what I've done and
• 50:28
  Jim Brown: apologize quickly so that I am keeping short accounts.
• 50:33
  Jim Brown: Help me see as big as you see so that
• 50:37
  Jim Brown: the future of our company isn't capped by
• 50:42
  Jim Brown: me and my limited view.
• 50:45
  Jim Brown: There's so many ways that our faith should inform
• 50:50
  Jim Brown: and,
• 50:52
  Jim Brown: raise our leadership.
• 50:55
  Lisa Nichols: So good.
• 50:56
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, Jim, what you're talking, how you're describing that right now,
• 51:01
  Lisa Nichols: it is a personal relationship
• 51:03
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 51:04
  Lisa Nichols: Where you are just talking to Jesus about these things,
• 51:08
  Lisa Nichols: right, and, inviting him in to every aspect
• 51:12
  Lisa Nichols: of your life.
• 51:13
  Lisa Nichols: So,
• 51:14
  Jim Brown: I'm I'm just looking on my and I don't see it right at my
• 51:17
  Jim Brown: fingertip, but, one of the disciplines in my life is
• 51:22
  Jim Brown: journaling.
• 51:22
  Jim Brown: And I I have a a book
• 51:26
  Jim Brown: now, like, many volumes,
• 51:29
  Jim Brown: and I sit down with a blue pen, and I start writing like I'm
• 51:33
  Jim Brown: talking to God.
• 51:34
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 51:35
  Jim Brown: And then I put down the blue pen and I pick up a red
• 51:37
  Jim Brown: pen, and I
• 51:39
  Jim Brown: prayerfully say, God, I want you to speak to me.
• 51:44
  Jim Brown: And it's a conversation, red and blue, red and blue, where
• 51:49
  Jim Brown: I am having this conversation.
• 51:51
  Jim Brown: And it's so powerful for me, Lisa.
• 51:53
  Jim Brown: This is when I have the deepest, hardest questions,
• 51:58
  Jim Brown: I go to journaling because that's a discipline that
• 52:02
  Jim Brown: I've found
• 52:04
  Jim Brown: reliably helps me know what God is saying.
• 52:07
  Jim Brown: Plus, I have
• 52:09
  Jim Brown: a couple people in my life that periodically I take my journal to, and
• 52:13
  Jim Brown: I say, I want you to read through the last, few months
• 52:17
  Jim Brown: of points.
• 52:19
  Jim Brown: And just would you flag anything that seems like it's
• 52:24
  Jim Brown: written in red, but that can't be gone?
• 52:29
  Lisa Nichols: Well, I love that you write it in red, because it's the red letters.
• 52:33
  Jim Brown: Exactly.
• 52:34
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 52:34
  Lisa Nichols: It's the red letters.
• 52:35
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, it is so beautiful.
• 52:38
  Lisa Nichols: I'm so glad you brought up journaling because it's been really a
• 52:42
  Lisa Nichols: huge practice for me as well as as long as I can remember.
• 52:47
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 52:47
  Lisa Nichols: Jim, and it's just so helpful to get your yeah.
• 52:51
  Lisa Nichols: I'll write out my prayers just like you a lot of times.
• 52:54
  Lisa Nichols: And, but, you know, the other piece of that, the other side of that
• 52:58
  Lisa Nichols: is listening.
• 52:59
  Lisa Nichols: You know, it's it's a relationship.
• 53:01
  Lisa Nichols: And in a relationship, it's a dialogue, not a monologue.
• 53:05
  Jim Brown: Right.
• 53:07
  Lisa Nichols: So that is so good.
• 53:08
  Lisa Nichols: Well, let me ask you this.
• 53:10
  Lisa Nichols: What do you believe, Jim, is this something extra that every leader
• 53:15
  Lisa Nichols: needs?
• 53:18
  Jim Brown: I think it's a love for people, and
• 53:23
  Jim Brown: they don't teach this in MBA programs.
• 53:26
  Lisa Nichols: No.
• 53:26
  Lisa Nichols: They don't.
• 53:28
  Jim Brown: I I again, I I said earlier, leadership is about people.
• 53:33
  Jim Brown: And if we love them and and help them see what's best
• 53:37
  Jim Brown: for them, then they will bring their best to our organizations,
• 53:41
  Jim Brown: and we will be effective and successful.
• 53:46
  Jim Brown: But can we start with it being about the people as opposed to being
• 53:50
  Jim Brown: about the bank account, for example?
• 53:52
  Jim Brown: Mhmm.
• 53:53
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
• 53:55
  Lisa Nichols: I could not, agree more with you.
• 53:57
  Lisa Nichols: I love love.
• 53:58
  Lisa Nichols: I do.
• 53:59
  Lisa Nichols: I love I love the and it's a it's a verb.
• 54:03
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 54:03
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 54:04
  Lisa Nichols: It's a verb.
• 54:04
  Lisa Nichols: We're we're to to do love.
• 54:07
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 54:07
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 54:08
  Lisa Nichols: What what is
• 54:11
  Lisa Nichols: Bob Goff's Love Does?
• 54:13
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 54:14
  Lisa Nichols: His book, Love Does.
• 54:15
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 54:16
  Lisa Nichols: So oh my goodness.
• 54:18
  Lisa Nichols: Well, Jim, thank you so much.
• 54:20
  Lisa Nichols: I just know that your wisdom's gonna help our listeners.
• 54:23
  Lisa Nichols: Listeners, please go out and get the imperfect CEO.
• 54:28
  Lisa Nichols: Jim's book, The Imperfect Board Member,
• 54:32
  Lisa Nichols: is also out there, and that was a best seller.
• 54:35
  Jim Brown: Yeah.
• 54:35
  Jim Brown: And and, interestingly, let me highlight that in
• 54:40
  Jim Brown: September, the twentieth anniversary edition, brand new
• 54:44
  Jim Brown: version is coming out.
• 54:45
  Jim Brown: I'm actually super excited about it.
• 54:48
  Jim Brown: I I began the publisher said, hey, we really need to refresh this.
• 54:52
  Jim Brown: It's people love this book.
• 54:54
  Jim Brown: Oh, yeah.
• 54:55
  Jim Brown: Okay.
• 54:55
  Jim Brown: But I I got deep into it and had so
• 54:59
  Jim Brown: many people from around the world that I've worked with over the twenty years,
• 55:05
  Jim Brown: speak into it.
• 55:05
  Jim Brown: So this is a richer,
• 55:08
  Jim Brown: very, very valuable update of the book.
• 55:11
  Jim Brown: Yes.
• 55:12
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, good.
• 55:13
  Lisa Nichols: Good.
• 55:13
  Lisa Nichols: Good.
• 55:13
  Lisa Nichols: Good.
• 55:14
  Lisa Nichols: I I can already think of a few people I wanna get that book
• 55:17
  Lisa Nichols: for, Jim.
• 55:18
  Lisa Nichols: So thank you so much again.
• 55:20
  Lisa Nichols: Enjoy the rest of your day, and, I hope to see you again real
• 55:23
  Lisa Nichols: soon.
• 55:24
  Jim Brown: Thank you, Lisa.
• 55:25
  Announcer: Something extra with Lisa Nichols is a Technology Partners production.
• 55:29
  Announcer: Copyright Technology Partners Inc twenty nineteen.
• 55:32
  Announcer: To learn more about this week's guest, check out the show notes at tpi
• 55:36
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• 55:38
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• 55:41
  Announcer: Thank you for listening to Something Extra.