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Do You Hate The One You Love? Conflict & Communication with Joan Childs · Life Rescue with Lisa Dwoskin

• Lisa Dwoskin: Hello everybody, welcome back to Life Rescue Podcast. I'm so excited to have a special guest today. And before I introduce her, don't forget if you like to call in, call in at 754-222-4413. Call in, share your story, ask a question, comment on whatever we're talking about. We love to hear from you. So my special guest today is Joan Childs. She's a psychotherapist specializing in couples therapy. And she is actually Brian and I's therapist as well. And she's really helped us a lot in our relationship. So thank you, Joan, and thank you for being here today. How are you? I'm delighted to be here today and thank you for having me. I'm great. ⁓ yeah, rock and roll. Yes. And you've been doing this for You're what, thirty five years old now, so you've been doing this for like ten years. She's she looks amazing. You're beautiful, you're so knowledgeable, you're such a bright white light. So tell us about when you started and how long you've been doing this for. ⁓ my goodness. Well, ⁓ before you were born probably, but I s I became I I had my ⁓ My office began as a psychotherapist private practice in nineteen seventy eight and I just retired my license just this year, but I morphed it into life coaching and relationship coaching and business mediation because you can't can't forget knowledge and as you get older and you still have your brain, which I do, thank God, you acquire a wisdom that you have accumulated for all these almost fifty years, half a century. So I'm not ready to retire completely. So I'm still working and I'm writing books and blogs and speaking. I can't believe that I have the energy to do all that, but I thank God that I do and I'm happy that I can still help people because when I I help myself when I help others, I'm sure you know that too. Yes, and before we jump in and talk about your books and all the beautiful things you do, let's talk about what keeps you youthful. I know the answer because I see you there all the time. But let's talk a little bit about how important nutrition, exercise, and positive mindset is to you in your personal life. Well, ⁓ I'll be eighty seven in October. That's less than two months, around two months from now. And ⁓ And you look like you're no not one day older than sixty about. You're gorgeous, but go ahead. Well it's lifestyle. Basically it's lifestyle. And that includes, you know, ⁓ my diet, which is v basically a pescatarian slash vegetarian. I don't eat meat or chicken or pork or anything that crawls on the ground in the ocean, anything that's ⁓ a scavenger. and ⁓ I do I work out three times a week. and I do a little bit of ⁓ yoga and I do chai tai chi and qigong. in between ⁓ the days that I'm not working at the ⁓ at the gym. ⁓ and basically I tried and I meditate every day. I can't start my day without meditation. That's what I was my next question. I love that. It doesn't it change your life? Well I'll tell you a little story ⁓ that happened to me about twenty years ago, a little bit more than tw well no not twenty years ago, twelve twelve or fifteen years ago. I had been diagnosed with diabetes And I was ⁓ being I was being seen by an endocrinologist and taking met metamorphin. And I was involved in a relationship with a pancreatic surgeon. And one day we were in Washington and he said to Washington DC and he said, Would you like me to get rid of your diabetes? Well, that's that's a loaded question. Of course. How could you do that? Do you have a magic wand? He said, Well, not exactly, but It's something that I can share with you and but it has to be out of your own volition to go along with it. But I can tell you that I can get rid of your diabetes if you follow my my ⁓ my ⁓ you know what I have to share with you. And what he did is he took me back to his we went back to New York from Washington. His kids live in Washington, DC. And we went back to New York where he showed me a film called Forks Over Knives. And his partner was did you see it? Well his par he was a my boyfriend who his name was Avram. He ⁓ at that time, no longer we're no longer in a relationship, but we were still very good friends. He ⁓ had me watch a film that his partner had made and he would Av was ⁓ Avram was the ⁓ chief of ⁓ surgery at ⁓ Cleveland Clinic in Ohio and then at Mayo Clinic. in Rochester and then in Columbia Presbyterian. And he did a lot he wrote about eleven books on pancreatic cancer. He said, Okay, watch this film. My partner El S El Selstein made it. And ⁓ it's about going on a plant based diet. So ⁓ he said, But ⁓ I'm not telling you to do it. I'm making a suggestion. He didn't he he he left it up to me to make the decision. I watched the film and I thought, well, I've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. So I went on a plant based diet and in three months my diabetes was gone and it's never come back. Wow. So I think that might be a helpful hint for some of your viewers. ⁓ I I morphed it a little bit, I'll have f fish because I felt a need to eat fish occasionally. So about once a week I'll have fish. But other than that plant base and people are not aware really how much protein you can get in vegetables and fruits. But I had to be educated. I read some books and I have been on it since I'm seventy two and I'm like I said going to be eighty seven. So I love that's I think that's very meditation. Your mind, body, spirit are one. And if you have a good mind you'll have a good body. If you have a good body, you'll have a good spirit all together like a triangle. Yeah, and you know you know my daughter Ashley, because she took care of your dogs at one time. She's became a strict vegan eleven years ago and she's only twenty one. She was only almost eleven when she went strictly vegan. And I don't know how she does it, but she does it and she's super healthy and I do believe in it. I can't give up meat. I like meat too much. I need my iron and my protein, but I know I can change it over. Eventually I probably will. Because I do believe that. I was much older than you when this happened also. But I kudos to your daughter, Ashley, because being to have that kind of self discipline at eleven, ⁓ it's very hard to imagine. Most kids just, you know, have They they eat what they wanna eat, they do what they wanna do, they you know, they're poor poor impulse control at kinda level yourself. So exactly. But I don't know how she does it, but she does it. Okay, so let's jump into the book we're focusing on today. Before we talk about the new book, the first book was called I Hate the Man I Love and you gave me a copy and I loved reading it. And then the second book became Do You Hate the One You Love? So Let's talk about the first book before you talk about the second. Well, the same book, right? But two titles. It was a revision for for a couple of reasons. The first book, I think The Man I Love, sounded like a male bashing book and I didn't realize it when I made the title. ⁓ and ⁓ I heard men say, ⁓ I my my wife is gonna love this book and I didn't want that to be the theme at all. I didn't feel that it was it was even in the book. The content didn't wasn't male bashing at all. But a title sells a lot of ideas to people. So ⁓ I d and then the other reason I did it is because we're living in a culture now where there's so many hate crimes. The word hate has become a very nasty word. So I didn't want to address it as if the with with the word man, as if you hate the man. So I decided to revise it with an introduction in the new book, Do You Hate the One You Love? Because sometimes you can hate your kids and you love them. You can have you can have oppositional feelings coexisting simultaneously. You can love and hate the same person, but it's not even the person that you hate. And this is where I put a whole introduction on that. It's really the behavior that gets you upset and makes you feel so angry. And I was in my office working with a couple and this the woman started screaming and her husband was there. And he she said, I I just hate him. Not even you. I didn't she didn't say I hate you. She looked at me and said, I hate him as if he wasn't there. He's an asshole, he's a jerk, he drives me crazy, he's not present, he never listens. She went on and on and on. And I I I really hate him. I said, You hate him? Yeah, well, I don't really hate him, but I I love him. But you hate the man you love? And she said, That's right, I do. And I thought, Wow, what a great title for the book. But it turned out that it sounded more like a male bashing and it had to do with the word hate that I didn't like. I morphed it into a book which still has the word hate into it, but a big introduction about the word hate in today's culture. So I defined it, you know, I I I gave it, you know, a ⁓ a positive spin, right? Yeah, I spinned it, exactly. And I made a big distinction between what I meant by hate And so that people can understand 'cause you can say I hate peanut butter and it doesn't have the doesn't have the smack that you know going on now between the political situation, the divisiveness, the anti Semitism. So I had to morph it into something that could people could understand. No, and it makes so much sense because when the first book that I just showed, I hate the man I love I had it in my car and and I put it in the back seat in the little like pocket because everyone was getting in the car and we have a family of five, three kids, an eleven year old, a twenty year old, and a twenty one year old, and they all pulled the book out and they're like, ⁓ my God. And and they said, Whose book is that? They of course they knew it was mine, it was my car, and they're like, So you hate Brian? You hate the man you love? Like that that's how they felt. I'm like, No, it's not about that 'cause it's not about It's about helping couples in their relationship. But it is true. That's how they took the title, you know. That's why I revised it. Yeah. So, okay, so let's jump into. Well, let me just say when Brian and I came to you probably what, like a almost a year ago, and we started getting couples therapy with you, it was so different than I ever expected. And I wanted jump into that a little bit and then you talk about whatever you want with the book. But how because I know and you know I talk a lot. So when I would go to therapy, I would talk so much and then the therapist would just sit there, Mm-hmm, yes. Okay. ⁓ your hours up. And I leave there like, Well gosh, you didn't even help me. But you don't really let us talk too much. You do different role playing and and different like ⁓ therapies. I I wanna hear about that because I think our viewers are going to love to hear about that. It's very different and it really actually works. It does work. ⁓ it it works under one condition th and and that comes from the couple. I need a big fat yes from both people that you really are committed to make this work. Because I am not a magician, you know I'm not a soothsayer, I can just do this work, providing the couple is committed to do whatever they need to do to get well, to heal and to grow. So having said that, what I do is I set up two chairs facing each other. As a matter of fact, in the book Do You Hate the One You Love? It's almost like you're watching a film, although you're reading it in the book, because it's a it's it's a in in a virtual kind of script description in the book. Two chairs where two people are going to look at each other eighteen inches apart because that is the that is how ⁓ how close you have to be to have the art of presencing. And a lot of couples are never present for each other. They are either in one room or the other room or I can't talk now, ⁓ don't bother me, I've got work to do, did you take out the garbage? Blah blah blah. Or they're on their phones next to each other. Yeah. As a matter of fact, when they when they go to sleep at night they're holding their their computers instead of each other. Yeah, right. It's true. So and a lot of technology has interfered with the with with communication, with relationships, even with children. I mean, they just don't know how to talk to each other. Yeah. But that's another story. The book. So in that scene where two Chairs are looking facing one person's and one chair once in the other 18 inches apart, and I have them hold hands and on on on their legs with a little bit of a separation, and I have them for the first five minutes, all they do is look into each other's eyes. Just get present, because the eyes are the windows of the world of the soul. And if they just look there, and then I'll I'll help them a little bit by saying. Just see if you can find the little girl in Lisa. And then I say to Lisa, just think, just try to see the little boy in Brian. And it's inevitable that tears start to come up. Yeah. So I reach the I gu I get beyond the cognition, I get to the limbic system of the brain, which is the feeling level. Because it's it's very experiential what I do. I do not sit there and listen to one person then the other like a tennis match back and forth. It just doesn't work. Right. Because everybody has a different perceptive mode and no one's telling the truth. It's just their perception of what they feel and what they see. And a except for certain things. If you're being abused physically or sexually or you're you're ⁓ emotionally or verbally, then that's pretty definite what what's going on. But if there's not lack of a communication and you can't seem to reach each other or ever feel like you've ever had what we call conflict resolution. And you keep arguing and fighting about the same things over and over, and they get swept under the carpet, and pretty soon your carpet looks like the Swiss Alps. And the same argument comes back ten days later, five days later, a month later, there's no resolution. Yeah. So by putting t two people close to each other, eighteen inches apart, you are now creating a safe relational space. Because what's happened is in when couples come in that are in crisis where they're they're just they're just not really reaching each other, the communication is failing, and they feel they're lost, they don't feel the love, they don't feel the connection any longer. You have to be able to clean up the polluted space and make it safe and sacred. So that's it's an experiential thing. It's not just looking back and forth and listening and talking. Nothing doesn't I remember when you did that too, Brian and I, and I was crying 'Cause it was true. We were we've never sat and looked at each other deep in the eyes like that. And what was so important what you said was for me to see the little boy in Brian and for him to see the little girl in me. Cause then it breaks down the barriers of all the baggage we've both have carried throughout our whole life to this age. And set of looking at each other now, looking at each other as a child, but also I love what you did next. Where you I would say something and then he would have to repeat it. This is what he heard. Because I think the most mm I know in our relationship the number one barrier or challenge is I say one thing, he hears another. He says one thing, I hear another. So what you do in the next step, that's brilliant. But what happens with with relationships that are in crisis? is that the wounds from our childhood experiences are placed right back into the adult relationship. They never were healed to begin with. So each person will get triggered by any kind of a saying or a look or a a ⁓ somet ⁓ something that they that that reminded them of the past and they'll get triggered. And people are very much alike. They're more alike than they're different. So anyone you would be with we might say something or have that look from the past And boom, you get triggered into feeling either abused or abandoned or neglected or something that was hurtful years ago that's been schlepped into the here and now. So when I do what I do is ⁓ it's it's a listening technique. I have one would say, ⁓ the the host, let's say you were the host, I would t say these are the words you need to say to Brian. Brian, I want to invite you over to my neighborhood. I want you to cross the bridge and go to my neighborhood. I'm inviting you. And then I teach Brian to say, You're invited, you do you accept? And if you accept, say, Thank you, I'm coming over. Then I explain there's an imaginary bridge which there is, it's a brain bridge between two people. And he has to imagine that he's walking from his neighborhood and leaving everything that he believes, all his pre pre pre ⁓ suppositions, all of things that he really has ⁓ invested in on his side of the neighborhood. And when he walks he comes with a makes a make believe plastic bag with a passport in it. And I am the customs agent. So if he's bringing any over from his side, I stop him and say, Wait, where is this coming from? Your side or are you crossing a bridge? And then he'll say, Oops, my side. Okay, bring it back. Let's start again. He'll come over and he would say, Thank you for inviting me. I'm here for you. And I give him the words. They're very sh it's not a lot of words, it's an economy of words. And then you say, Thank you, Brian. I appreciate it or something like that. Yeah. And then you say and very with five to eight words, no more. I wanna talk about my feelings of confusion or I want to talk about my loneliness or I wanna talk about my anger. Anything that you wanna bring forward, it's up to you. But it's very short. And then he has to say what I heard you say, Lisa, is that you would like to take me down a stri I missed that. You would like to take me down a street called anger. Mm and you would say, Yes, if it's right and he would then he would say, Tell me more. Yeah. Very short words. And then you would say, Lately we have not been really focusing on the the is the issue we there's there's I feel like you're avoiding or whatever, but no more than those words. Usually I say five words, but people can't do that in the five words. But so they I try to show them that there's a way of saying something very succinctly and very short. You don't have to go on to a long, you know, ⁓ speech because either you w you lose them. No, and it does work. It does work. But I wanna jump on something else because we have like, believe it or not, only about ten minutes left. So I wanna ask you two things. The first and I'm gonna tell you both and then you take your time. The first question is have you ever had a c couples that couldn't make it work and if so, why not? Like were are there too they were too far gone or ⁓ what's like are most couples you were able to repair? And then I'll ask you the next question after you answer that one. So let me make sure I'm I'm answering the question. Did I have did I ever have a couple that it didn't work? Is that what you're Yeah, that you couldn't help because they were just too far gone? Because most of the time you get the couples coming to you when they're already in total like disarray probably. Well ev every couple is di every couple is different and sometimes it takes a little longer in the first session for me to be able to to get tell them that I really have to be in ⁓ the the authority figure here. 'Cause I am they they have to listen either listen to me or just not gonna work. So they usually listen 'cause they're paying a lot of money. So they they will listen. And even and and sometimes they'll even do it well, but when they get home they lose it 'cause there's no one here to help them facilitate it. And I even set that up for them to let them know how they have to do it. But I also give them homework assignments, videos to sh that show how it's done in case they forget the the the ⁓ the the words that you're supposed to use. You know, I'm here now and then you say thank you and then you say ⁓ I want to invite you to the street down Down my street of anger or am I down the street of my loneliness? And then they have to say, Well, I ⁓ they say, I heard you say that you would like to take me down your street of anger, and then you say, That's correct. And then they say, Tell me more. And it's very short. I explain this before we start. I don't just go in it. I give them a little explanation. And there, and then there are some couples that you can't fix. There's no question. Right. Like I said, I'm not a suitsayer, I'm not a G I'm not a mag magician. But if two couples are really earnest and really want and they're and and they have intellectual capacity to be able to understand that there is a there's a formula here to clean up the polluted space. Mm-hmm they they most of the time they're very they're they're very cooperative. They work it out. What happens when they go home? If I tell them to set up two chairs when they leave us when they leave the ⁓ office and I tell them to do this as often as possible, even if they've got nothing to to talk about as far as the in the what what the issue is, just go through the being present and just go through the the the first part of it. Don't try to do the whole thing by yourself. At least it shows that there's an effort and that there's a you know a both parties. Yeah, and I think that most people don't understand that a relationship takes work. People think, ⁓ it if it's not working, let's move on to the next relationship. And then they bring all those issues into the next relationship and the next one. Just like losing weight. You and I always talk about it. If you're not consistent with discipline and showing up all the time, you're not going to live a healthier and happier life. Same with the relationship. If you let it go and don't work at it, it's going to go away. But if you work on it and show up and be present and go through the difficult communication and conversations, then there is hope. Yes, absolutely. ⁓ the the problems that are really severe, like I I will not support a I will not support a couple that's abusing or one with any kind of abuse. I'll tell them that that's something that I can't that they have got to just either go for some kind of training or you know ⁓ anger management or something. They they have to be really high minded and intelligent. I don't mean that they have to be a rogue scholar, but ⁓ a road scholar, but they have to at least be able to t to be to assimilate and to take in the information that I'm giving them and the and the homework assignments also. It's it's not an easy thing to do because it's changing a whole system. But we a we usually end up picking people that are gonna give us the biggest nightmares of our lives as a way of trying to work through unresolved issues from our childhood. So in a way it's a blessing that we have that person in our lives. Him for you, you for him, because you have a chance now to resolve what you never were able to resolve when you were young and questionable and vulnerable. Now you have a you have a strategy that works and I have much more success than I have failures. There are some failures, I will say that, because you don't know everything until you start working things out. And if I hear that there's been a cr chronicity of abuse, if two people are drinking, they're using alcohol to the point where they're alcoholic, I can't work with them because I'm not working with their essence or with their authenticity. I'm working with the addict. It doesn't work. So yes to that question. Yes. Okay, so ⁓ we'll keep going until we run out of time because I can talk to you forever. And by the way, I want to bring you back in maybe a couple weeks or a month to talk about your other book as well about your daughter. And we're gonna mention that at the end. But if you had three things, two or three tips that you can give to our viewers and listeners. that maybe can't afford therapy or can't get to therapy for whatever reason, they buy your book, they're having a lot of rough times in their relationship. If you can give them a couple of homework assignments or things to work on at home or the most important things, what would you say would that be? Well, I I don't mean for this to be self serving, but if they read the book they'll get a lot of information, a lot of strategies, and I think there's two chapters, I think it's five and six or could be five, six and seven, I can't remember, where I they actually will watch me by reading, which is not a visual, but it turns out they're like a fly on the wall in the book. And they can see exactly how it's done, which is really a learning experience for them because it's very different. they've just the talk therapy. So the book really has even even has, like you're asking me, some kind of things that they can do on their own. It actually tells them there's certain videos that they can watch, certain books that they can read. And the practice of just being present and setting a time aside. Let's say they've one partner has something that they want to talk about with their sphere because of the response that they think they're going to get. Either the person's gonna walk out of the room or they're gonna shout or they're gonna shut down completely. So there's the there's a fear there. So if there's a way of approaching them, either by an email rather than talking, because if they're gonna have a trigger that's gonna cause them to get defensive, you're gonna it's g it's not gonna work. So the three things that I talk about well, there's more than three obviously, but you need to ha you need to have cooperation, collaboration. most of all commu ⁓ communication. If communication does isn't there, can keep communication is the the key to understanding each other. And some people don't know how to communicate. And if something is said that triggers the other person, they'll immediately either get defensive or they're gonna shut down and say, I can't talk about this now or just walk out the door. So they get lost and nothing is accomplished because there's they don't know how to be how how to use communication effectively. And that's one of the things I teach in the book. There's actually a a part in there where they talk I talk about the communication, the change model. And it's all in I messages. When I hear you shout, I feel scared. I imagine that you are incapable or un or unable to answer me. What I need from you is blah blah blah and can we agree to blah blah blah. It's a five step it's in the book too. Yeah. So it's a it's a f a communication model. But a lot of people don't know because they were raised in families where nothing was ever resolved. You know, they came from parents who fought all the time and nothing nothing ever changed. It was shouting and there was verbal abuse and and so we only know what we know. And if we didn't have good parenting models, that's what we end up with. And also there's a lot of pain. And where children see abuse in a family or see a father yelling at a mother or a father hitting a mother or a mother drinking alcohol. These things are imbibed in the child and they feel responsible in a way. The kids feel responsible because they want to help, but they don't have any any way of really ⁓ e effectuating change between their parents. They're just there and when they observe it, they feel it's coming to them as well as the parent. So it's they're like sponges. They pick it up. Yeah. I know you helped with Brian and I so much. Well, for those of the people who are watching know me. I have a degree in psychology. So you would think I know better, but of course I'm a human who needs a coach, just like everybody does. And what you taught me the most is to Talk about I instead of pointing the finger about him or you. So I've worked on myself so much and it takes time and I'm still a work in progress, we all are. But I noticed when I would approach Brian, the way I would approach him, he would get that defensive and then shut down and then I was like ready to pull my hair out. But then I started approaching it a little bit softer, kinder. more loving and talking just about me instead of pointing at him, then he was more receptive. So it definitely is a work in progress. And I don't think it ever ends. The work. You have to be mindful and you have to re before you say something or before you're asking for something, you have to figure what do I want what is my outcome goal and how am I going to best achieve it. So it takes some cognition, you know, thinking. How do I want to get my point across without him getting defensive? And you so you take the the the feeling, which is at the bottom here, which is your fight or flight. Yeah, it's called the it's it's called the reptilian the reptilian. You take it up to the feeling, which is the limbic system, which is how you feel. Then you take the elevator up to the computer up here, the cognition or the ⁓ the ⁓ I forget now what it is, but And then you c then you take it over to the third eye the frontal lobe, which you don't really develop until you're in your twenties anyway. Yeah. And it takes about twenty seconds to do this routine once you know it. You know, ouch. ⁓ do I run away or do I fight? What am I feeling? I'm feeling anger. Why am I feeling anger? ⁓ yeah, I can understand. And how do I want to handle it? One, two, three, four. That's how it goes. I love that. Yeah, the fight or flame. We all wanna just run, get the hell out. Exactly. Or punch punch somebody in the face. Yes, and it's all about it's either here like this with a heart or it's like Yeah. Right, exactly. Such a fine line. So okay, tell the viewers, listeners, how do they get your book? How do they find you? Do you you have a blog? Let's talk a little bit about you before we say goodbye. Yeah, I have a website, Jonichiles.com. The book is on Amazon and Barnes and Noble's and a lot of a lot of your favorite bookstores. It's also on Audible. If you go if you go on Amazon, you can get it and you can get it on on hardcover, ⁓ paperback, e you know, e ⁓ ebook, which is Kindle, ⁓ or you can get it on Audible. And that's you can choose right then and there which way you want it. So it's it's easy. And they can And you're on social media, right? And you have a blog? ⁓ yeah. My I have blogs. I've got over almost a thousand blogs that I've been writing since for twenty five years. So there's a lot of blogs on my website they can look at. And ⁓ the what else? Instagram, you're on Instagram, Facebook. ⁓ yeah, on social social ⁓ a lot of the platforms. Yeah, a lot of main mainly Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn. ⁓ I'm on TikTok, but not much on TikTok. It's mostly you know, I have to say your life story, and and let me tell all of you watching, she has done so many things, and we'll talk about that next time, but this woman is the real deal. She's been doing this a long time. She has so many stories to tell. And I just want to ask you, have you ever thought of writing a book about Your life and everything you've accomplished in your life and how and how people could do it too, something like that. Well that's something I I've already done it in nineteen ninety-five. It was called The Myth of the Maiden on being a woman. That has a story also. ⁓ but that was I in nineteen ninety five I was much younger. So all the time, do another one now. I have to write I'm gonna have to write another yeah, another memoir. up to date because at this age, which is, you know, like I said, I'll be eighty seven in the actuary charts, I should be dead within five years. So I have a lot more to to offer than I did back in nineteen ninety five. But the nineteen ninety five was the history of coming out of the ⁓ the fifties and living in Miami Beach was like living in a bubble. And it was a very glamorous place to live. And I we had a lot of celebrities coming to the Fountain Blue, the Eden Rock Yeah. We would go there as kids to watch the shows and it was a safe, very safe time. We would we would skate in Flamingo Park. It would close at ten o'clock at night. Well the lights would go out, we'd have to walk through the park in the dark, never a mugging, never a rape, nobody got murdered. It was like living in the last age of innocence. Then we turned over to the sexual revolution, you know, with the thanks of Elvis who shook his hip. By the way, I dated him also in nineteen fifty seven. So that's in that's in the book also, Myth of the Maiden. It's out of print now, but they have some eBay copies that that are there on Amazon. But and then we went from that into where I developed a social conscience because we were practicing our apartheid in Miami Beach in the fifties. It was colored, not black, colored to the back of the bus, colored water fountains, colored bathrooms. It was awful. We just didn't know that. Our frame of reference was Well, I guess that's the way the world is. We didn't even know about anything else. But as you get older you become more more socially conscious about what's going on. You make decisions and you as and now from that time it's like I'm in another planet. I don't even recognize that's why you have to write another book. Yeah, I that's I have a lot of books that I'm gonna write. You do, and next time we have you on I want you to talk about your book with your daughter, which is This is Why Did She Jump. Yeah, that's just tell like a little synopsis of what it's about and then we'll have that on the next one. Well, actually the the title is says ⁓ pretty much Why Did She Jump, My Daughter's Battle with Mental Illness, a Broken Healthcare System and My Ultimate Search for Peace. Probably every parent's worst nightmare is losing a child through suicide or losing a child. But even suicide is more devastating because you feel what didn't why wasn't I there to stop it? ⁓ what could I have done differently than I did? When a child is sick with an illness and their their cancer or or anything else that was terminal, they there's the the there's not as much guilt in that because they know there's they've done everything that they can do. The doctors have tried everything. But in suicide, especially when it was so unexpected. You feel so much more guilt and shame. And the feelings that cascade down like a waterfall that put you in a state of despair are unbelievable. That's why I wrote the book. It took me seven years to write it. I didn't even know I was writing a book. I just was kind of like journaling at the at the computer because grievers don't sleep. We ⁓ we were up most of the night where I was working full time with five kids at the well before when she died. But they weren't children anymore. She was thirty four years old when she passed. So I look forward to coming back and talking about that book too. And I just want to say thank you so much, Joan, because not only are you such an intellectual woman and a beautiful woman, but your soul is so beautiful, your heart is so beautiful, and you give even when People don't come to you as a client. You're always giving. You're always helping. You care so much and it really shows. So thank you for all that you do. And I'm blessed to and honored to know you. Well, it takes one to know one, right? Just described yourself very well. ⁓ thank you so much. I know. We have a beautiful connection and so all of you go out there and go get your book, Do You Hate the One You Love? And say your website one more time. Just your name. Joan Childs with a middle initial A. Joan E. Childs. Perfect. So thank you all so much. And don't forget if you have any comments or you want to talk to Joan or talk to myself or you want to order her other book, anything you want to say to me, and I can relay it to her. 754-222-4413-2 Please like and share this podcast and definitely share it with people who are either in in need of couples therapy or suicidal thoughts or mental health. I mean, we we covered a lot here. So definitely like it, share it, comment, and we will both r respond. Thank you all so much for joining and thank you again, Joan. And you want my phone number? It's up to you if you want it. We're gonna it's my business number. Nine five four eight five four seven seven six four. Say it one more time because it cut off. Nine five four eight five four seven seven six four. And let and just tell me that you that you've calling from ⁓ Lisa's program, the rescue show that you were on that you saw this morning or this afternoon. Perfect. Okay, thank you all. Have a beautiful, blessed day. And we will see you next time with your next book. Love you. Bye. Thank you.