Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / PREMIUM PREVIEW: Douglas Murray LIVE Q&A

Transcript

PREMIUM PREVIEW: Douglas Murray LIVE Q&A · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  G'day, humans! Welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas and what dangerous ideas I've
• 0:09
  been peddling over the past week. In conversation with Douglas Murray, it's so fascinating
• 0:16
  doing seven live shows in five cities, almost all of them sold out, and wrestling and
• 0:24
  rumbling in different ways with different controversial subjects, with a man who I disagree
• 0:31
  with a lot and agree with a lot as well. All of the shows were a bit different. Obviously
• 0:37
  you do sort of the greatest hits, and I said, I've asked him, you know, if it's Douglas
• 0:40
  Murray, then we have to talk about Israel and Gaza and we have to talk about the culture
• 0:44
  wars and social justice activism. But there's quite a lot else that is innovative and original
• 0:51
  and that changed and the audiences changed and we sort of navigated. It was just beautiful
• 0:55
  to tap dance with a mind that is that astute regardless of what you think of his viewpoints.
• 1:01
  So today we bring you the first taste, which is two Q&A sessions. We did about 50 minutes
• 1:09
  to an hour in conversation, and then we did a good 30 to 40 minutes of audience questions.
• 1:15
  The questions were submitted via an online website called Slido, where audience members
• 1:20
  can actually up rank and down vote questions. So you get a good sense of what the temperament
• 1:25
  of and interests of the audience actually are and you don't have to put up with listening
• 1:29
  to people bang on for seven minutes about themselves at a microphone. And next week we'll
• 1:36
  bring you one of the episodes in full and the couple of weeks later we'll bring you another
• 1:40
  episode in full. There are also two videos of the two of the events which are going to
• 1:47
  go up on YouTube. Make sure that you're subscribed to the YouTube channel. If you subscribe
• 1:51
  then you'll get notified when all of those goodies drop and it's also just a way of helping
• 1:56
  us. If you watch the ads on YouTube then that's a way of feeling like you're contributing
• 2:00
  to the expansion of this project and to the expansion of sane conversation without necessarily
• 2:05
  subscribing if you're kind of forward to subscribe to the premium sub stack. If you are a premium
• 2:10
  subscriber you'll get more than an hour here because this is two Q&A's. This is Adelaide
• 2:15
  and Brisbane back to back when Adelaide fades out. Don't stop the podcast because you've
• 2:19
  got a whole other other batch. If you're a if you're a free subscriber you'll get a taste
• 2:24
  of a portion of the first Q&A only. And just a final note to say thank you to everyone
• 2:31
  who supported us in this venture. This was the first live tour that uncomfortable conversations
• 2:37
  has launched. That's going to be one major component of this enterprise alongside the
• 2:43
  podcast, the sub stack and the YouTube. And one of the events that we will release in
• 2:51
  coming weeks was the Sydney Matinee where there was a coordinated campaign outside by
• 2:57
  anti-zionist protesters to create as much trouble as possible and create as much noise
• 3:04
  as possible and really create as much intimidation of people who'd chosen to come and see the
• 3:10
  show as possible. It's stunning to me that people would think that the best way to resolve
• 3:20
  big complicated moral geopolitical questions is by shouting instead of by talking. So to
• 3:28
  those of you who listen to this podcast that is evidence to me that you prefer talking
• 3:33
  to shouting. And I hope you enjoy as much as I did this little taste of me in conversation.
• 3:40
  Live at sold out shows with the one and only Douglas Murray.
• 3:44
  I have a thousand other questions for you. Let's take some audience questions because there
• 3:50
  are some excellent ones and thanks for submitting so many. Have we managed to use Slido?
• 3:54
  Yeah, well you know what? You are actually the first audience who have managed to use this
• 3:58
  new app which is great because you get to actually vote each other's questions could not
• 4:01
  understand it. They said watch the French. French wizardry is this. As we move,
• 4:10
  east, the audience has become increasingly intelligent, you see. Oh, I was a great fan
• 4:19
  of Christopher Hitchens asks one audience member what we all experience as with him.
• 4:23
  What influence did he have on your life? No, I'd ordered Christopher. He reviewed my first
• 4:30
  book which came out when I was a university in 2000 and I remember very distinctly the
• 4:35
  first time I heard his name because somebody came running over to me in the quad and said
• 4:41
  and I sort of shrugged because I was young and foolish. And this friend grabbed me by
• 4:47
  the shoulder and said, no, you don't understand Douglas Christopher Hitchens has been nice
• 4:51
  about you. He's never nice about anybody. And I thought, well, I'll look into this. Yeah,
• 4:59
  then we became friends. He was marvelous. I mean, I learned not to have lunch with him.
• 5:05
  That was a very important lesson because I was always told there were two rules of drinking.
• 5:13
  One was never drink alone and the other was never drink before six. And I've managed
• 5:17
  to hold to the second. But Christopher didn't hold to either rule and lunch was a long
• 5:26
  and boozey affair involving my scotch beforehand during and after. And I would be wiped out.
• 5:36
  Whereas the, and I remember once turning on the television in the evening, waking up from
• 5:41
  slumber on the sofa and there was bloody Christopher on news night on the BBC, being just as eloquent
• 5:47
  as he'd been a lunch. And I, you know, he's a, and he's written an article in the meantime
• 5:51
  as well, which I read the next day. So he certainly taught me that I shouldn't try to keep
• 5:56
  up with that. He was very good. He was very good at something which I really admire and
• 6:01
  I always did admire. And he had in spades, which was his view that, you know, my own view
• 6:07
  is enough for me, you know, I don't care if I'm the only person with it. When people say
• 6:13
  things like, you know, well, you're in a minority on this one. Yeah. So what's your argument?
• 6:20
  And, and he had, I have to say, he had a fearlessness and a bravery, which, which was remarkable,
• 6:31
  which whenever you sort an operation was quite something to behold, up a sick and just plow
• 6:38
  on and often offer it to them again, you know. And, yeah, I know I adored him missing very much.
• 6:48
  He, and we only ever had one crossword, which was in about 10 years of friendship. He had as
• 6:56
  some people know an enormous enmity towards Dr Kissinger. And at some point about 2004, I was
• 7:06
  seeing Christopher in the early evening and then for dinner. And I had, I had been at a meeting
• 7:12
  with Dr Kissinger for breakfast. And he had said something that I thought Christopher would agree with
• 7:18
  to do with the rock. And I remember thinking, I'll tell Christopher because he, he, you might find
• 7:24
  it helpful. Oh, what a mistake. I remember I started telling him this story and it's quite
• 7:32
  often with Dr Kissinger because if you met him, and he was a remarkable man, but he would,
• 7:37
  he would speak like this. And, and so you'd lean forward and try to get it. And often you'd make a
• 7:43
  note. And you'd think of the time, God, that sounds so wise. But you look your notes afterwards
• 7:49
  and everything's like, we live in a very complex world. It's not so good, but it's not spoken in
• 7:57
  the kind of guttural German whisper. Anyhow, this, whatever it was, he'd said that morning,
• 8:04
  it became less and less impressive as I was selling it to Christopher. And Christopher was going,
• 8:09
  we're ready to end, we're ready to see the steam starting to emerge. And he spat out, we didn't
• 8:14
  need Dr Kissinger to tell us that. And I was like, it was, it was like being whipped. But now I
• 8:22
  adore him. How can Europe ask another audience member? How can Europe handle incompatible
• 8:29
  migrants need with the Turkish, for example? Well, this is, I mean, I read a book about this,
• 8:36
  but the, the long the short of it is just so filled with problems because I mean, think of it
• 8:44
  like this. The Germans didn't expect the migrants to stay. And that's not my view, that's the
• 8:51
  view of Angela Merkel, who said this 13 years ago, when she gave a speech saying multiculturalism
• 8:58
  has failed. And she said, you know, the Gasterbiter, so called the guest workers in Germany who
• 9:04
  were brought in after the war in the 50s, principally from Turkey, they didn't expect them to stay.
• 9:09
  It's extraordinary in hindsight. I mean, you would have thought again, unless you knew politicians,
• 9:16
  you would have thought that people would have worked out that if you bring in millions of young men,
• 9:22
  they might want to meet young women. And then if young men meet young women, they might start a
• 9:29
  family. And then they might want to stay where they are. And if the living conditions are much
• 9:34
  better in the place that they are, then they might not go back to the place they came from where the
• 9:38
  living conditions aren't so good. And if they can send back part of their salary to their mothers
• 9:42
  and others back home to make their living conditions better, then why would they go back to Turkey?
• 9:49
  I mean, it was the most... Why is it incompatible getting to that question? And I mean, you
• 9:53
  copped Flak for the strange death of Europe for... I copped Flak, but then everyone agreed I was
• 9:58
  right five years later. I mean, you know, the criticism was that it's a sort of ethnocentric
• 10:05
  gazenephobic view to assume that migrant communities aren't going to be able to assimilate and
• 10:11
  incorporate them. I don't assume that at all. I don't assume that at all. I just think that it's
• 10:16
  people of food issue and they think that immigration doesn't have consequences. All immigration
• 10:22
  has consequences. If Australia would be very different today, if Australia had mainly been settled
• 10:29
  by Russians, it'd be different. It's just the case that in some indeterminate way that is not
• 10:41
  a science. We don't know how long it takes or whether it's possible to integrate people when
• 10:46
  they come at a great speed in great numbers. And we know that as well, because I mean, in many
• 10:51
  countries in the West, people will still talk about where they're from. I think people do here in
• 10:55
  Australia. And if you'll say, well, where are you from? Well, on that side, I'm Irish and on
• 11:01
  that side, I'm Scottish, if you're lucky. We haven't been, you know, and... No, but I mean,
• 11:09
  we all know the question, who are you? Where do you come from? And a lot of the ethics of this
• 11:16
  country, like other countries, are formed by just simply by the people, but are in it the people
• 11:20
  who made the journey and built the country. And that's perfectly normal. I don't understand why
• 11:26
  we recognize that in the rearview mirror, but don't recognize it in the front. It's a mystery to
• 11:33
  me. I mean, it seems perfectly obvious that, that, you know, there are, I would say there are
• 11:38
  three things in immigration that matter. Numbers, speed and identity. And that's it. And nobody
• 11:45
  knows what the formula is because it's not a science. We don't know what numbers a country can take
• 11:50
  per head of population before it becomes something else. We don't know what speed is able to be absorbed
• 11:57
  and we don't know what identity or identities are better and others. I think the third,
• 12:02
  we have a bit of a better idea of by now. Right, but the third is the one that we're not allowed
• 12:06
  to touch. I mean, you can adjust jump tall over it. I mean, no, you know, from a policy level,
• 12:12
  you can adjust the numbers, you can adjust the speed, but it's not considered appropriate at the
• 12:17
  moment to adjust, you know, what particular... If you come, you have to adhere to our values.
• 12:22
  And if you don't, go elsewhere. I think that's... You know, I, I just, I don't see, I don't see why
• 12:33
  among politicians they find it so hard just to say that. You know, if you're an Iranian who believes
• 12:40
  in our values and wants to leave the mullers behind, come. If you're an Iranian who doesn't like us
• 12:48
  very much and you love the mullers, really hot for them, can't get enough, would like more,
• 12:54
  more mullers are better, then maybe this isn't the place for you. Maybe Iran is the place that
• 13:01
  you'd be happier. And I think it's to say, you know, I mean, if, you know, if, if, if a very large
• 13:08
  number of people from England suddenly went to Bangladesh, let's say millions of English people
• 13:15
  went to Bangladesh. And even the height of empire was nothing like that. But, and they were
• 13:23
  expecting to come home, you know. But if millions of Englishmen or Welshmen went to Bangladesh,
• 13:30
  it would have an effect on the culture. Now, would it be a good effect for a bad effect? It would
• 13:35
  depend. Would it be the case that they had immediately become Bangladesh's? No. I mean, one of the
• 13:43
  things that stuns me, it kind of goes back to the thing of gratitude and the West, is that all the
• 13:49
  countries that are currently being defamed as being most racist are all the countries of the least
• 13:55
  racist. Like, it's all the countries where we actually mind about that. You know, when the
• 14:01
  Australian public are called racist or attacked by a politician for racism, they only try this because
• 14:08
  they know that it would wound you. It's the same with the British, very decent people. Among
• 14:14
  least politicians in China, and I accused the Chinese public of racism, they wouldn't bother.
• 14:20
  Okay, so I'm racist, you know, would be the, would be the result. They don't care. It's just not a
• 14:25
  thing. So the country, the, the, the countries which at least racist get portrayed as most racist,
• 14:32
  um, we get defamed horribly all the time. And the reason I say this is to build to this point that
• 14:39
  the oddity of it is, it's in our countries that people actually do. Maybe you could say not
• 14:46
  enough, but they do rise up whatever their background. Our politics are more diverse than most countries.
• 14:57
  If my father had moved to India, say, I would not be a player in Indian politics. In fact, I couldn't
• 15:07
  be. Richie's soon ex-father moved to the UK and he's Prime Minister. And I'm rather proud of that.
• 15:14
  I'm rather proud of the fact that we have systems where talent can out. But you can only recognise
• 15:20
  the virtue of that if among other things you recognise that is not the norm. In China, nobody who
• 15:27
  is not Chinese will rise up the Politburo, of course not. Of course not. So why do we keep just getting
• 15:34
  beaten up and being made feel bad about ourselves for something we're actually doing pretty well?
• 15:51
  A question about the referendum. What would you have voted for in the recent referendum?
• 15:58
  Asked one audience. I wrote a piece in Australia and I had the referendum saying
• 16:04
  which way I would have voted. I think actually you are the pertinent to the previous point.
• 16:08
  I mean the politicians selling a referendum were saying that treaties weren't involved when they
• 16:17
  were and I thought that was dishonest. Much the same way as we were lied to by a lot of politicians
• 16:23
  in the UK about Brexit. I know what it's like when they try to cover it over and get around the
• 16:30
  uncomfortable facts. But yes, I mean I did not I was glad that the public voted the way they did.
• 16:38
  And partly as I said earlier because I'm always pleased when the public are given a right to vote
• 16:42
  and kick the political class in the gullies. But also because it would have caused untold problems
• 16:53
  in my view for years to come. Because once the treaties issue is opened and once the whole land
• 16:59
  issue is reopened, you fall apart in my view. I think you fall apart. I think once everything is
• 17:07
  up for grabs like that, you're in real trouble. I hear this all the time again in America and
• 17:12
  Canada which have the same sort of argument going on. And you want to say you cannot treat
• 17:22
  the majority of the public as interlopers. It's quite wrong. Nobody alive did anything wrong.
• 17:31
  Nobody. So why be treated like you did? And by the way the English didn't do anything wrong either.
• 17:38
  I mean you know as my late friend Clive James used to say we're here because history happened.
• 17:44
  There's nothing you can do about it. And you can sort of litigate it endlessly and say it would
• 17:50
  have been better if the Koreans had landed in Australia or that Australia hadn't been discovered by
• 17:56
  anyone outside of Australia. You get this in America there's this weird movement that seems to
• 18:02
  believe the best that I haven't found anything. There's nothing out there. I mean there's a bit
• 18:08
  of land. We don't have any promise at all. And I'm glad the clumbers found the Americas.
• 18:15
  Glad that people found here. And I'm bemused by this interpretation of history that now exists
• 18:22
  that believes that although it's something that has been around for 300 years at least since
• 18:28
  or at least 18th century in France, this idea that everything that I said to do early,
• 18:33
  everything is out is bad, everything anyone else is as good. I'm bemused by this rewriting of
• 18:39
  history in particular which is the history of the West. Is this history of violence and conquer
• 18:46
  and that everyone else lived in Eden. And I think most people in modern Australia would be horrified
• 18:55
  to live in the situation from an average in Australians did in the past. And I'm pretty convinced
• 19:02
  that most Canadians wouldn't want to live as first people there either. But we don't because we're not
• 19:11
  like we're not living there. I mean of course we're going to be a parochial towards our our own
• 19:15
  way of life. And they will be to theirs and that's fine. But by the way that doesn't mean that
• 19:20
  wrongs down. Again though I come back to the point of I mean which wrongs and who. I mean
• 19:32
  for my last book I wrote this over one section about this delicious thing that happened
• 19:37
  with some French sailors and the marries. So to give it a short story of it, Rousseau who's
• 19:46
  a philosopher who's responsible for a lot of what's passes for thought these days.
• 19:52
  Famously used to venerate all native peoples outside of beauty. The fact he'd never been
• 20:00
  further than Switzerland was only a bolster to his theory of course. But there's an expedition,
• 20:08
  a French expedition that lands in New Zealand at the late 1700s and they
• 20:13
  they they discover some marries and they've all read their Rousseau. The French, not the marries.
• 20:20
  And they've all read their Rousseau at least imbibed their Rousseau and they they go ashore and
• 20:28
  think they're all going to be you know Adam and Eve and the marries chop them all up and eat
• 20:34
  them and things and and and the Frenchman that did survive went back to Paris with a pretty
• 20:39
  low view of Rousseau I have to say. But you know I mean in the 1800s the marries were
• 20:49
  in the casket wars for instance I know this is next door to you but in the in the musket wars sorry
• 20:54
  in the musket wars they were trading heads for muskets and sometimes they just kill somebody and
• 21:01
  give the head as a thing. I don't know do you want anyone want any compensation for that?
• 21:09
  A million Europeans were stolen by the North African Barbary pirates only 200 years ago
• 21:17
  and sold into slavery and if I wanted I could start a movement. I could start a movement just
• 21:24
  this for the Europeans stolen. I could if I wanted to destroy my society and to make people feel
• 21:32
  terrible but I don't I'd like to move forward but as I you know again I returned to the one
• 21:40
  of the points that Nietzsche made he makes this astonishing point in the same work where he says
• 21:46
  that thing about the about justice and revenge he describes a type of person who he says
• 21:52
  lying about their hurt. I think those people are everywhere and you should have the right to
• 22:00
  at least call them out and say you didn't suffer any hurt. Next question is about these shifting
• 22:14
  around. Do you have any concerns for a second Trump presidency? Well my genuine fear it's
• 22:22
  just it's the opinion polls and it's alarming to be outside America who haven't followed
• 22:27
  this too closely but yeah I mean amazingly enough it is going to be Trump abiding again.
• 22:33
  I'm not sure I have the stamina for myself but I'm not sure if they do but
• 22:43
  if the polls show that if it is head to head with them currently Donald Trump wins.
• 22:48
  I'll tell you what I have two principal fears about him returning to office he did some good
• 22:53
  things in office but there's no avoiding his character flaws and the character flaws include
• 22:59
  why. To hear the rest of this conversation go to uncomfortableconversations.substac.com slash listen
• 23:06
  and you will get your own personal premium podcast feed with at least three extra episodes of the
• 23:13
  podcast every month and heaps of extra stuff including the remainder right now of the fabulous
• 23:18
  conversation you've just been hearing. If it was worth listening to this much of don't rob
• 23:23
  yourself of the rest. Well let your phone right now and search for uncomfortable conversations
• 23:28
  over the subset.