Latest / Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast / JJ Wetherholt to IL, Defense Needs Help, Graceffo Appreciation

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JJ Wetherholt to IL, Defense Needs Help, Graceffo Appreciation · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory. We
0:11
Speaker 1: got both boys in the house today. Jim Hayes with
0:14
Speaker 1: Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn. Off day for the Cardinals today.
0:18
Speaker 1: Currently two games under.
0:19
Speaker 2: 500.
0:19
Speaker 1: Five games back in the wild card. And the hits
0:24
Speaker 1: just keep on coming. J.J. Weatherholt, tendonitis in his right
0:28
Speaker 1: wrist on the 10-day IL. He says that he's been
0:32
Speaker 1: dealing with this for about a month because his numbers
0:35
Speaker 1: have dropped off. As pointed out, on this podcast. And, uh,
0:40
Speaker 1: he said, it's just a wear and tear from playing
0:42
Speaker 1: a lot of innings, but I will say this about
0:46
Speaker 1: not having JJ and not having Mason win in the lineup.
0:53
Speaker 1: It's a different team. Those two guys play defense. There's
0:56
Speaker 1: no question about it. And it looks like a totally
0:58
Speaker 1: different team, but boys, I'm going to throw this out there.
1:01
Speaker 1: We had talked about the national league rookie of the
1:03
Speaker 1: year race, uh, Sal Stewart right now, 31 homers, 105 RBIs.
1:09
Speaker 1: Would have been over anyway, I think, Kyle. As good
1:12
Speaker 1: as JJ has been this year, right? Rest your know,
1:16
Speaker 1: probably was over, wasn't it?
1:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think Sal Stewart's had an incredible year.
1:22
Speaker 3: You know, you just pointed out some of the numbers,
1:24
Speaker 3: and obviously there's more than just those two. But, you know,
1:27
Speaker 3: I've kind of been watching a little bit here, and
1:29
Speaker 3: we've talked a little bit, you know, off the podcast
1:32
Speaker 3: just about Weather Holton and then now what Stewart's doing.
1:36
Speaker 3: And yeah, he's having an MVP type year if Otani
1:41
Speaker 3: and Pete Carl Armstrong weren't doing what they were doing, right?
1:44
Speaker 3: You guys see the numbers right there on the screen.
1:47
Speaker 3: And if you're not watching on YouTube, then obviously you
1:49
Speaker 3: can't see it. So maybe you should watch on YouTube.
1:51
Speaker 3: There's a little plug for you, Jim. so you didn't
1:54
Speaker 3: have to do the begging. But yeah, I mean, I
1:57
Speaker 3: think Sal Stewart's had a great year and it would
1:59
Speaker 3: be interesting to know, you know, you mentioned JJ said
2:01
Speaker 3: the last month is something he's been dealing with it.
2:03
Speaker 3: You know, we've seen his OPS number, just one of
2:07
Speaker 3: the numbers kind of slowly decline over, you know, ever
2:11
Speaker 3: since the all-star break, really. So, Probably something that the
2:14
Speaker 3: wear and tear of a long year is, you know,
2:17
Speaker 3: kind of adding to a little bit. And it's something that,
2:20
Speaker 3: you know, we've talked about on this podcast quite a
2:22
Speaker 3: bit as, you know, young guys getting through a full
2:24
Speaker 3: season is important. Figuring out how to taper work, you know,
2:29
Speaker 3: here and there. Maybe you need to do a little
2:30
Speaker 3: bit less defensive work one week. to try and stay healthy,
2:34
Speaker 3: which the Cardinal staff does a great job of. So
2:37
Speaker 3: this is just something that he'll keep learning and keep
2:40
Speaker 3: adjusting as his career goes on. I don't think it
2:43
Speaker 3: causes me to doubt J.J. Weatherholt at all, though.
2:47
Speaker 1: I'm with that. What do you think, Lance? Was that
2:50
Speaker 1: rookie of the year race over anyway? Because regardless of
2:53
Speaker 1: what J.J. was doing, and it did dip a little bit,
2:57
Speaker 1: Sal Stewart, he's having a monster season.
3:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, if 30 and 100 doesn't get you, then nothing does,
3:03
Speaker 4: to be honest with you. JJ wasn't on that. Like,
3:07
Speaker 4: there's no other way to say it. Better average, more homers,
3:10
Speaker 4: more RBIs. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
3:12
Speaker 3: Done.
3:13
Speaker 4: So, let's on to the next topic.
3:15
Speaker 1: And if you look at the OPS, too, I mean,
3:18
Speaker 1: Sal Stewart's got the OPS runs. Look, Sal Stewart also
3:22
Speaker 1: has a lineup where he has no protection. So, he's
3:24
Speaker 1: doing it single-handedly. Tip of the cap to that guy.
3:27
Speaker 1: But I will say this, and tell me if I'm wrong, Kyle.
3:30
Speaker 1: I've watched the Cardinals win J.J. 's out there, win
3:33
Speaker 1: wins at shortstop. That is a weapon defensively. If you're
3:38
Speaker 1: a pitcher, you want those guys behind you. When they're
3:41
Speaker 1: not in there, it looks like a whole different ballgame.
3:45
Speaker 1: My thing is I want win at short, J.J. at
3:49
Speaker 1: second for years to come as a pitcher. You're probably
3:52
Speaker 1: on board with that. Yeah.
3:55
Speaker 3: You know, when you sent us the topics about, you know,
3:57
Speaker 3: defense being one of them that you wanted to talk about,
3:59
Speaker 3: I just went to baseball savant and kind of looked up,
4:01
Speaker 3: you know, what the team defense has been. And ever
4:04
Speaker 3: since the all-star break, I think they've been the third
4:06
Speaker 3: best defense, you know, when it comes to like outs
4:08
Speaker 3: above average or run value in that defense. Um, you know,
4:12
Speaker 3: over the last week or so, I think they've had
4:14
Speaker 3: some mishaps, so they haven't been in the top half
4:16
Speaker 3: of the league, but really no matter what timeframe you
4:20
Speaker 3: break it up in, they've been a top five defense
4:22
Speaker 3: almost the entire year. So, uh, you know, those two
4:25
Speaker 3: guys up the middle have really added to that. I
4:27
Speaker 3: think Nathan Church is a guy that's added to that. Um,
4:29
Speaker 3: and you know, Jordan Walker's defense has been, you know,
4:32
Speaker 3: I would say better as well. So As a team,
4:35
Speaker 3: they still play good defense, but those two guys up
4:37
Speaker 3: the middle, you have a lot of plays up the middle.
4:39
Speaker 3: And even the things that you don't see, whether it's
4:42
Speaker 3: relay throws, whether it's because teams know that Mason Wynn
4:46
Speaker 3: has any elite arm, they don't run from second to
4:50
Speaker 3: home and take that extra base or first to third,
4:52
Speaker 3: take the extra base because they know he's got a cannon.
4:55
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of ways those guys affect the
4:57
Speaker 3: game defensively.
4:59
Speaker 1: Les, we talked about a little last year, I'm sorry,
5:02
Speaker 1: in the last podcast with, Mason, when it's short, I
5:06
Speaker 1: think he's so good defensively that sometimes we don't appreciate
5:10
Speaker 1: how good until we, we don't see him at shortstop.
5:14
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a game changer at shortstop and there's
5:18
Speaker 1: no getting around it. You could put JJ there somewhat.
5:21
Speaker 1: It just isn't the same.
5:23
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think it's a hundred percent. You show the,
5:26
Speaker 4: his dynamicness, uh, on the field, uh, what he does
5:29
Speaker 4: for everyone else. And, uh, I think in general, you're
5:32
Speaker 4: looking at with JJ going on the aisle too, you're
5:34
Speaker 4: going to see how great together they are up the,
5:38
Speaker 4: of the middle. We're seeing the lack of defense with
5:42
Speaker 4: Mason gone. Now we're going to see the, how big
5:45
Speaker 4: that hole gets with, with JJ gone with him. So
5:48
Speaker 4: when it all comes down to it as a pitcher,
5:50
Speaker 4: if the middle of the field with their, whether it's catcher,
5:53
Speaker 4: second base, shortstop and center field, if those all are
5:56
Speaker 4: premier defenders, you're going to have a good defense no
5:59
Speaker 4: matter what. And they, kind of had that locked in. Um,
6:03
Speaker 4: and now we're seeing defense might be a little shaky
6:06
Speaker 4: here and there because those four elements are, are, are,
6:10
Speaker 4: you know, you're missing two of them now for sure. Um,
6:13
Speaker 4: so it starts hurting a lot. So yeah, I think
6:16
Speaker 4: they're in a good spot moving forward with those guys. Um,
6:19
Speaker 4: health is always going to be an issue wherever you go,
6:21
Speaker 4: but if they stay healthy and do the things they're doing,
6:24
Speaker 4: they've got a great makings that they can put a
6:26
Speaker 4: lot of offensive support around them at the corners because
6:30
Speaker 4: they have such good middle-of-the-field defense. They'll be able to
6:33
Speaker 4: make up for whatever's on the corners, and that goes
6:36
Speaker 4: a long way for pitching.
6:38
Speaker 1: I'm with you. And Mason's got a thumb issue. He
6:41
Speaker 1: expects that he will be back at some point on
6:44
Speaker 1: this road trip coming up, so hopefully sooner than later.
6:48
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about Burley, Kyle. Burley gets
6:51
Speaker 1: to 100 RBIs. That's pretty significant. First time in his
6:55
Speaker 1: career he's gotten to 100 RBIs. And if you look
6:58
Speaker 1: at the progression of his season, he's having a great August.
7:01
Speaker 1: He's getting better and better. What makes him such a
7:03
Speaker 1: dangerous hitter? You're a pitcher trying to get him out.
7:07
Speaker 1: What makes him so dangerous?
7:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think he has a chance to
7:11
Speaker 3: be the National League Player of the Month in August.
7:13
Speaker 3: You know, he's had just an incredible August where he's
7:17
Speaker 3: driving the baseball, lots of extra base hits. Um, you know, he's,
7:21
Speaker 3: he's getting on base in other ways. It's, it's a really,
7:23
Speaker 3: it's been a really good month for Burley. Um, and
7:26
Speaker 3: I'm happy to see it cause he works hard and
7:28
Speaker 3: we've talked a lot about him on this podcast. Uh,
7:30
Speaker 3: what makes Burley really tough to pitch to is because
7:34
Speaker 3: he picks his spots to try to drive the baseball
7:37
Speaker 3: pole side. He has the ability to drive the baseball
7:40
Speaker 3: for extra bases to the opposite side. And then he
7:43
Speaker 3: picks his times to take his base hit to the
7:44
Speaker 3: left side. He's a guy that if you shift him
7:48
Speaker 3: and the situation calls for a base hit, he allows
7:50
Speaker 3: himself to get beat by a heater so he can
7:52
Speaker 3: stay on the off speed, pull the off speed, hit
7:54
Speaker 3: the heater to left field and take his line drive
7:57
Speaker 3: that way. His bat-to-ball skills, I believe, are elite. And
8:02
Speaker 3: I'll let Lance talk a little bit about Burley, too,
8:03
Speaker 3: because I know he likes Lance, and I don't want
8:05
Speaker 3: to take all the thunder. But 100 RBIs, I heard
8:08
Speaker 3: somebody talk about the Phillies, how they're putting Luis Arias
8:12
Speaker 3: in the four-hole, I believe. The reason is because Luis
8:16
Speaker 3: Arias does not strike out, especially in big situations, and
8:21
Speaker 3: he hits for average with runners in scoring position better
8:23
Speaker 3: than anybody in the game. Burley is a guy that
8:26
Speaker 3: I would guess if we looked at his contact numbers
8:29
Speaker 3: and the ability to put the ball in play with
8:31
Speaker 3: runners in scoring position, I'm guessing it's pretty elite, and
8:34
Speaker 3: that's why he's got the 100 stakes.
8:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got a great risk, always has. And there's
8:40
Speaker 1: something about him. I was talking to Brant Brown about
8:43
Speaker 1: Burley Lance, and he said, Burley, and look, every player
8:47
Speaker 1: works hard. I know sometimes we overdo it all.
8:50
Speaker 4: He works hard.
8:51
Speaker 1: He's a hard-working guy. He said Burley spends more time
8:54
Speaker 1: not just in the cage, but prepping to see what
8:56
Speaker 1: other pitchers do. So he said this guy almost has
9:01
Speaker 1: a sense for how pitchers are going to attack him
9:04
Speaker 1: and said he spends more time looking at opposing pitchers
9:07
Speaker 1: more than anyone else on the team. That's probably part
9:10
Speaker 1: of his success, too, outside of skill set.
9:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he has a plan, right? What we're
9:16
Speaker 4: seeing is a guy with a plan and an ability
9:18
Speaker 4: to put bat to ball and an ability to want
9:21
Speaker 4: to do whatever it takes to win. Those things start coming,
9:25
Speaker 4: going forth. Burley's been a guy from the get-go, from
9:29
Speaker 4: college on, that was known to play to win the
9:33
Speaker 4: game and play the game the right way and do
9:35
Speaker 4: everything that he needs to do to do that. And
9:39
Speaker 4: we're seeing that at the big league level. The more
9:42
Speaker 4: ability that he gets to show what he's capable of,
9:45
Speaker 4: the more he does. It's just simple as that. He
9:48
Speaker 4: had guys like Nolan and Goldie to show him some things.
9:53
Speaker 4: And then he's taken those things and run with them
9:56
Speaker 4: in a way that, we all kind of saw common
9:59
Speaker 4: as teammates, Kyle and I did. We took to him
10:02
Speaker 4: quick and loved him, and we had a great time
10:05
Speaker 4: with him, but he asked questions not only to those
10:08
Speaker 4: guys on the hitting side, but he would ask questions
10:10
Speaker 4: to pitchers on certain things and stuff like that, and
10:14
Speaker 4: he has a confidence about him that was amazing. I
10:18
Speaker 4: loved it. Did I help me give him a hard time? Yeah.
10:23
Speaker 4: And we had some fun with it. But when you
10:26
Speaker 4: have the ability, he shows up, does things the right way.
10:30
Speaker 4: He's quiet when he needs to be. He's confident when
10:32
Speaker 4: he needs to be. He is what you see as
10:36
Speaker 4: a gamer, ballplayer, winning baseball player. And he's putting the
10:40
Speaker 4: numbers to show that too. And those are fun things
10:43
Speaker 4: for me to watch as a former teammate. and someone
10:46
Speaker 4: that thinks very highly of him and had a great
10:47
Speaker 4: time being his teammate and all that good stuff. So, yeah,
10:50
Speaker 4: I think we're seeing a guy that is– I mean,
10:53
Speaker 4: I put the comp on him a year ago whenever
10:56
Speaker 4: we started all this. He is Lance Berkman, and that
10:59
Speaker 4: was everything Lance Berkman was. He had the confidence about him.
11:04
Speaker 4: He'd tell you what he felt, how he felt, why
11:07
Speaker 4: he's doing what he's doing. He always had a plan,
11:10
Speaker 4: and he was ahead of people, and that's what Burley is,
11:13
Speaker 4: and that's why I put that comp on him.
11:15
Speaker 3: You guys just showed some off-sense of stats there just
11:21
Speaker 3: a few seconds ago of the last 10 or 15
11:23
Speaker 3: games or something. Maybe 10 games, I can't remember what
11:25
Speaker 3: it was that our producer has put up. But unfortunately,
11:28
Speaker 3: he's had a little bit of a homer-less streak. He's
11:30
Speaker 3: still slugging the ball because of his doubles, but there
11:34
Speaker 3: it is. So he's got a little bit of a
11:35
Speaker 3: homer-less streak going, or else he'd be almost a lock
11:38
Speaker 3: for 30-30 doubles and homers. He's got to get on
11:42
Speaker 3: a little bit of a heater now. to get to
11:45
Speaker 3: 30 homers. But, man, I was really– a few weeks
11:47
Speaker 3: ago he was on pace, and I was hoping he
11:49
Speaker 3: was going to do that. But he's going to have
11:52
Speaker 3: to get on a little homer heater if he's going
11:53
Speaker 3: to do that now.
11:55
Speaker 1: It's tough hitting homers at Bush Stadium. They just came
11:58
Speaker 1: off a homestand.
11:59
Speaker 4: No question about it.
12:00
Speaker 1: He hit a couple balls that might have been homers
12:02
Speaker 1: in other ballparks. Last thing about Burley, Lance, I'm going
12:05
Speaker 1: to ask you this. One thing he does that I
12:08
Speaker 1: think makes him sort of an X factor, he crushes
12:11
Speaker 1: pitches out of the zone. Sometimes I think a pitcher says,
12:14
Speaker 1: I'm going to throw this guy a neck-high fastball, and boom,
12:17
Speaker 1: it's over the wall. That makes it tough for you guys,
12:20
Speaker 1: doesn't it?
12:21
Speaker 4: Well, if you are known for throwing high heaters and
12:24
Speaker 4: he's ready for it, he's going to barrel it. And
12:28
Speaker 4: that's the thing that he does well in this sense
12:31
Speaker 4: is he knows the preparation that you've already spoken of,
12:35
Speaker 4: that the hitting coach has spoken of. He knows what
12:37
Speaker 4: you're trying to do in certain spots, and if he
12:40
Speaker 4: thinks he can get to it, he will get to it.
12:43
Speaker 4: But he also knows with, hey, if he does this
12:46
Speaker 4: and this count and I can't get to that, he
12:48
Speaker 4: won't swing at it. So that's the beauty of him.
12:51
Speaker 4: It's like he knows he can barrel those top balls
12:53
Speaker 4: and get those balls in the air and do those things,
12:55
Speaker 4: especially if he knows you're going to go there and
12:57
Speaker 4: he's ready for it. But you don't see him swing
13:00
Speaker 4: and miss at it and come out of his approach
13:03
Speaker 4: because he's trying to cover it either. So that's the
13:06
Speaker 4: beauty of what he does is he knows where the
13:08
Speaker 4: top is, and the top that he can get to,
13:10
Speaker 4: and then he usually takes if it's too far out
13:12
Speaker 4: or too far to touch. And he doesn't expand the
13:15
Speaker 4: strike zone in an area of, hey, I'm chasing, or
13:18
Speaker 4: I didn't see that pitch for the most part. He
13:22
Speaker 4: expands in barrels balls when he knows you're going to
13:24
Speaker 4: that pitch, where he knows what you're trying to do.
13:26
Speaker 4: And he's like, I'm ready for it, and I can
13:28
Speaker 4: hit it because I've already eliminated a whole side of
13:32
Speaker 4: the plate or eliminated a quadrant of the zone because
13:35
Speaker 4: I know what you're doing. So that's why he's able
13:36
Speaker 4: to do that.
13:38
Speaker 1: Kyle Leahy is on an innings limit at present. Is
13:42
Speaker 1: that the right thing to do? We'll get to that
13:44
Speaker 1: after the break. You're watching Cardinal Territory on the Foul
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Speaker 1: Territory Network.
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Speaker 1: So Kyle Leahy in his first year as a starting
14:52
Speaker 1: pitcher has been outstanding. But now that he's passed 136 innings,
14:59
Speaker 1: the Cardinals want to limit the amount of innings he
15:02
Speaker 1: throws to protect him and make sure that since it's
15:05
Speaker 1: his first taste of being a full-time starter in big
15:08
Speaker 1: league baseball, that he's safe and he avoids injury. Asking
15:13
Speaker 1: Kyle about it, he said, physically, I feel fine. And
15:17
Speaker 1: he said, to be honest, he said, it puts me
15:19
Speaker 1: in a weird spot because I want to throw. But
15:23
Speaker 1: he said, I appreciate the team looking out for me.
15:25
Speaker 1: And he said, without the team's guidance on everything, I
15:29
Speaker 1: would not be the starting pitcher that I am. Like
15:31
Speaker 1: they changed his sleep habits, his, his eating habits, his,
15:35
Speaker 1: his workout routine to get him to this point. So
15:38
Speaker 1: he said, I'll never second guess anything. But Kyle, as
15:42
Speaker 1: the starts wind down, I mean, he was four innings,
15:45
Speaker 1: three innings. I don't know if they're going to give
15:46
Speaker 1: him like one inning, two innings. Are the cards doing
15:49
Speaker 1: the right thing with Kyle Leahy at present?
15:54
Speaker 3: I think they are doing in my mind, the best
15:57
Speaker 3: thing possible. for an innings limit is they're letting him
16:01
Speaker 3: make his starts limiting him in each start whether that's
16:04
Speaker 3: pitch count stress pitches whatever it may be so that
16:07
Speaker 3: he can make 30 what's he's at 26 starts so
16:10
Speaker 3: he can make 30 to 32 starts uh lance and
16:13
Speaker 3: i agree on this and you know lance can touch
16:16
Speaker 3: on it as well uh i think shutting a guy
16:18
Speaker 3: down with a month in the season i don't know
16:21
Speaker 3: that it's actually been proven to help you know this
16:24
Speaker 3: really started if we go back to 2010 or 11,
16:29
Speaker 3: whenever it was Steven Strasburg, he gets shut down. And
16:33
Speaker 3: unfortunately for Strauss, he had an injury riddled career. I
16:37
Speaker 3: would love to see numbers on following guys who get
16:40
Speaker 3: shut down to see if it actually works. I don't
16:44
Speaker 3: think we've figured out how to nip the injury bug
16:47
Speaker 3: in the butt yet. So I think they're doing the
16:49
Speaker 3: right thing. Limit his innings and pitches per start, get
16:53
Speaker 3: him to 32, keep him on his routine for a
16:55
Speaker 3: full year. so that he knows exactly what it feels
16:58
Speaker 3: like next year when he goes out and dominates again.
17:02
Speaker 1: So with Leahy, he thinks there is value in staying
17:07
Speaker 1: in that starter mindset, right, and preparing the same way.
17:11
Speaker 1: But Lance, if you're a starting pitcher who's used to
17:14
Speaker 1: trying to go six, seven, whatever it is, in your case, nine,
17:20
Speaker 1: isn't it a weird, like you have to figure out,
17:23
Speaker 1: Do I change my approach and what pitches I show?
17:26
Speaker 1: Should I be more aggressive since I know I'm only
17:29
Speaker 1: going two, maybe three innings? It does put you in
17:32
Speaker 1: a weird mindset. And as I recall, when I was
17:35
Speaker 1: talking to Kyle, he said he has to make sure
17:37
Speaker 1: it doesn't get in his head and he keeps doing
17:39
Speaker 1: the same thing he's been doing. But it does put
17:42
Speaker 1: you in a weird spot, doesn't it?
17:45
Speaker 4: Kind of, but you're looking at a guy that's never,
17:49
Speaker 4: it's not like it's years of going those six innings
17:53
Speaker 4: and this and that. And then it's like, Hey, we're,
17:55
Speaker 4: we're shutting you down. Like he's been a one and
17:57
Speaker 4: two and a guy, not only a year ago. So
18:01
Speaker 4: mindset wise, it's kind of, Hey, if you know how
18:05
Speaker 4: many innings you have that day and all that, then
18:07
Speaker 4: maybe it changes your game planning a little bit that day.
18:10
Speaker 4: It's like, Hey, you're only going to today. So it's like, okay,
18:12
Speaker 4: I don't have to save anything or I don't have
18:14
Speaker 4: to do anything like this. It's like, Hey, go, you know,
18:18
Speaker 4: go get, go get my six outs as quick as possible. um,
18:21
Speaker 4: and with everything I've got, because I'm not going to
18:24
Speaker 4: get a chance to use anything later or anything like that. So, um,
18:27
Speaker 4: I think it just puts, um, just a little bit
18:31
Speaker 4: of a, okay, I can go do whatever I want
18:33
Speaker 4: for two to three innings and be done with it
18:36
Speaker 4: for the day. Um, so if you say it that way,
18:40
Speaker 4: technically could simplify things for him because it's like, Hey,
18:42
Speaker 4: go throw the kitchen sink at him and get my,
18:45
Speaker 4: get my nine outs as quick as possible and not
18:47
Speaker 4: worry about, uh, not showing him anything. So, I think
18:51
Speaker 4: the main thing for him is to finish the year pitching.
18:54
Speaker 4: There seem to be, that's what they're trying to do,
18:57
Speaker 4: which I agree with. I wish we would have been
19:00
Speaker 4: looking at it earlier this year, maybe pushing some starts
19:05
Speaker 4: back more, adding more six man rotation. So we're maybe
19:08
Speaker 4: at 115 innings right now, 110. So he can push
19:13
Speaker 4: all the way to the end, making five innings of
19:15
Speaker 4: start on stuff like that. Cause again, I will say
19:18
Speaker 4: no matter what you do, that's still going to be
19:20
Speaker 4: a difference next year when you have that true workload
19:25
Speaker 4: all the way through instead of saying, okay, we're tapering
19:28
Speaker 4: off here at the end. But I'm glad that he's
19:30
Speaker 4: going to be healthy. That's the number one point, that
19:33
Speaker 4: we're trying to keep him healthy through the end of
19:35
Speaker 4: the year and we're finishing the year active. So they're
19:38
Speaker 4: doing him right. I know it sucks. That's something nobody
19:42
Speaker 4: wants because of the way he's throwing the ball this
19:43
Speaker 4: year and what he's done. But all in all, you're
19:47
Speaker 4: in a situation where you're a 500 team and you
19:50
Speaker 4: are what you are at this point. Now, if he
19:53
Speaker 4: was going to be in the playoffs, then it's like, hey,
19:56
Speaker 4: you've got to let him go. So they're doing right
19:58
Speaker 4: by him, right by the organization and what they're planning
20:00
Speaker 4: on him in the future.
20:02
Speaker 1: Quinn Matthews, a young guy who has four big league
20:06
Speaker 1: starts under his belt. bounced back after getting beat up
20:10
Speaker 1: pretty good by the Phillies in his last start, five
20:13
Speaker 1: and two thirds, one run ball, seven strikeouts. I don't know, Kyle,
20:16
Speaker 1: if you got a chance to see him, but he
20:19
Speaker 1: sure looks the part of a big league pitchers. What
20:22
Speaker 1: are the cards have in Quinn Matthews, who has been
20:25
Speaker 1: talked about for a couple of years now, a lot
20:27
Speaker 1: of people excited about the tools that he brings to
20:30
Speaker 1: the table.
20:32
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I think as we've seen with a
20:36
Speaker 3: couple of our young guys, and really this is around
20:38
Speaker 3: the league, right? You don't necessarily know what you have
20:43
Speaker 3: until you get a full year in here. He is
20:46
Speaker 3: still figuring out how his stuff plays in the big leagues,
20:49
Speaker 3: and it's going to be all of next year probably
20:52
Speaker 3: figuring it out. because then he's going to start realizing
20:54
Speaker 3: how guys are going to make adjustments to him. And
20:57
Speaker 3: Lance talks about this all the time. When the league
20:59
Speaker 3: figures you out a little bit, now you've got to
21:01
Speaker 3: make an adjustment, right? The numbers that we see here, okay,
21:04
Speaker 3: I think we like most of them except for probably
21:06
Speaker 3: the batting average against, right? And only in four starts
21:09
Speaker 3: and just a few innings, that can get skewed pretty
21:12
Speaker 3: easily by one start or two starts, which we know
21:15
Speaker 3: he's had a clunker or two. But you like the
21:17
Speaker 3: swing and miss. You like the decently low walks. And
21:21
Speaker 3: hopefully that's something that can, you know, stay trending in
21:24
Speaker 3: the right direction as he pitches more and more innings. But,
21:27
Speaker 3: you know, I think he's a guy that the Cardinals
21:30
Speaker 3: are excited to see what the next six starts looks
21:32
Speaker 3: like and, you know, how the innings rack up here.
21:35
Speaker 3: And then if he's a guy that, you know, has
21:37
Speaker 3: a good offseason and can stay healthy in spring training and,
21:40
Speaker 3: you know, can probably, you know, really add some value
21:42
Speaker 3: from the left side as a starting pitcher and, And,
21:46
Speaker 3: you know, hopefully is not going to be on any
21:48
Speaker 3: type of an innings limit because he's, you know, been
21:51
Speaker 3: able to rack up some innings here and there.
21:54
Speaker 1: He's got swing and miss, Lance, there's no question. He
21:57
Speaker 1: can get some strikeouts. The problem with Matthews at the
22:00
Speaker 1: minor league level, he walked too many guys. He's limited
22:03
Speaker 1: that so far in his, you know, brief stint in
22:07
Speaker 1: the big leagues. What are you seeing from a guy
22:09
Speaker 1: like that? And are you thinking that this is a
22:12
Speaker 1: guy that, could be a big part of the rotation
22:16
Speaker 1: in the years to come.
22:18
Speaker 4: Yeah i mean look at the first four starts um
22:20
Speaker 4: three of them we can we can stomach one of
22:22
Speaker 4: them we can't right so if he's three out of
22:24
Speaker 4: four every time he takes the mound we've got something
22:27
Speaker 4: that we can work with i mean so in our
22:29
Speaker 4: short sample size yes jim it all right but you
22:33
Speaker 4: look at the numbers overall you're like uh whip it's
22:36
Speaker 4: too much era is too high blah blah blah but
22:39
Speaker 4: that's three out of four that we're that were pretty solid. Um,
22:43
Speaker 4: so you go from there, you know, obviously you would want,
22:45
Speaker 4: you want the average, um, innings per start to go up, right?
22:50
Speaker 4: We want that to be more, uh, plus five. Um,
22:53
Speaker 4: so you can get some work there. Maybe, maybe the,
22:57
Speaker 4: the walks there, they're fine where they're at strikeouts or
22:59
Speaker 4: what we want. So out of the three or the four,
23:01
Speaker 4: we like what we see maybe average in any more start, um,
23:05
Speaker 4: over the course of this. And we were in a
23:07
Speaker 4: good spot. You know, if you can say, Hey, Three
23:11
Speaker 4: out of four, I'll take it every time. When the
23:13
Speaker 4: course of the season you look up and you have
23:15
Speaker 4: 30-something starts and three out of every four, he keeps
23:17
Speaker 4: the team in the ballgame to win games. That's a
23:19
Speaker 4: good starting pitcher. So it's a wait and see, but
23:22
Speaker 4: good start.
23:23
Speaker 1: Time for our final break. You're watching Cardinal Territory on
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23:29
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23:35
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23:36
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23:43
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24:30
Speaker 1: So Gordon Graceffo was the opener the other day. Starting pitcher,
24:35
Speaker 1: he was a guy who started a lot in the
24:37
Speaker 1: minor leagues. I asked him about that, and I said,
24:40
Speaker 1: do you prefer starter or opener? And he said opener,
24:43
Speaker 1: and he went through his whole routine knowing he'd be
24:45
Speaker 1: the opener with the bullpen guys because he said if
24:48
Speaker 1: you're a guy in the bullpen, suddenly gets a start,
24:51
Speaker 1: and you don't hang with the relievers, they will hate
24:54
Speaker 1: you for that. So he said he was just the opener.
24:58
Speaker 1: But what he did, he went out, scoreless baseball, three
25:02
Speaker 1: solid innings, struck out four. And then he pitched yesterday
25:05
Speaker 1: a couple of scoreless innings.
25:07
Speaker 3: Here's my question.
25:08
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with Lance on this because I
25:09
Speaker 1: hope to get a snide answer. But if you're Gordon
25:12
Speaker 1: Graceffo and you're starting to make a name for yourself
25:15
Speaker 1: as a bullpen guy, but you were a starter, you
25:18
Speaker 1: won't admit it. But deep down, you want to be
25:21
Speaker 1: a starting pitcher in Major League Baseball, not working out
25:24
Speaker 1: of the bullpen.
25:25
Speaker 3: Am I wrong?
25:27
Speaker 4: You definitely want to be a starter. It pays more.
25:30
Speaker 4: You get more days off. You have so much more
25:32
Speaker 4: fun in life. There's really no other way to say it.
25:37
Speaker 4: And if we want to look at the way that
25:39
Speaker 4: this has kind of gone for the starters that are
25:43
Speaker 4: in the rotation, look at Palante, Libby, Leahy. Is Graceffo
25:49
Speaker 4: the next in line to do what they've done and
25:52
Speaker 4: with starter pass in the minor leagues? So to answer
25:55
Speaker 4: the question, you want to be a starter. You get
25:59
Speaker 4: four days off in between starts. You get paid more.
26:03
Speaker 4: You get so much less stress. There's so many different things, Kyle,
26:07
Speaker 4: that I can go down that rabbit hole with. But yes,
26:12
Speaker 4: you forever want to be a starter. There's no other
26:15
Speaker 4: way to say it. He's had a great year. I'm
26:16
Speaker 4: happy for him. And if you look at what the
26:19
Speaker 4: rest of the crew's done that's in the rotation, they've
26:22
Speaker 4: all followed the same path when they've gotten their opportunity.
26:25
Speaker 4: So I'm hoping they let him do that. I mean,
26:28
Speaker 4: you look at where he's got the walks-wise. We've got
26:30
Speaker 4: to clean up the walks. If we clean up the walks,
26:32
Speaker 4: we're in a really good spot. There's no other way
26:35
Speaker 4: to say it. But other than that, really good year.
26:38
Speaker 1: What do you like about Graceffo, Kyle?
26:41
Speaker 3: Well, I was excited when you had him on the
26:43
Speaker 3: list to talk about today because I looked into it
26:46
Speaker 3: a little bit. And I don't watch every game, obviously,
26:48
Speaker 3: so I don't necessarily see every time he pitches. But
26:51
Speaker 3: I know he's a guy that the Cardinals were looking
26:53
Speaker 3: at with this stuff a couple years ago to be
26:56
Speaker 3: an impact arm. All right. The numbers on the screen
27:00
Speaker 3: right now that you see, I don't even believe tell
27:02
Speaker 3: the whole story. All right, so Lance, you mentioned the walks.
27:06
Speaker 3: You and I don't disagree very often. I'm just going
27:09
Speaker 3: to add on that actually in the last 15 starts
27:12
Speaker 3: or 15 games, he has limited walks. In his last
27:15
Speaker 3: seven games, he has done a better job of limiting walks.
27:18
Speaker 3: And actually overall in his last 40 innings, he has
27:22
Speaker 3: 19 walks. So is less than, well, about on pace
27:26
Speaker 3: with the number on the screen, I guess, but he's
27:28
Speaker 3: actually limiting more. And if you compare his strikeouts to walks,
27:33
Speaker 3: he's done better, which is also a number I think
27:35
Speaker 3: everybody wants to talk about with his pitching staff, more strikeouts. Well,
27:39
Speaker 3: over his last 20, in 22 innings, he has 21 strikeouts.
27:43
Speaker 3: All right, so he's done a better job looking for
27:46
Speaker 3: swing and miss and getting swing and miss. And then
27:48
Speaker 3: when I look from last year when he struggled, to
27:51
Speaker 3: this year where he's obviously dominated throwing the ball really
27:54
Speaker 3: well his pitch usage numbers are really interesting so i
27:57
Speaker 3: think he's somebody to look at where he's leaned on
27:59
Speaker 3: his fastball change up more i don't think he's been
28:02
Speaker 3: a guy that has necessarily spun the ball uh to
28:06
Speaker 3: get his swing and miss his change up swing and
28:08
Speaker 3: miss is really elevated this year which i really like
28:11
Speaker 3: to see and i think he's used a couple different
28:13
Speaker 3: fastballs to have success the batting average against Obviously, we love,
28:18
Speaker 3: and I think that's something that Lance is going to
28:20
Speaker 3: appreciate because he uses his fastballs in different quadrants to
28:23
Speaker 3: get weak contact and force outs and use his defense.
28:26
Speaker 3: So I think he's somebody that will be interesting to
28:28
Speaker 3: see if the Cardinals decide to use him in the
28:30
Speaker 3: rotation next year because I don't necessarily think he profiles
28:34
Speaker 3: as like an Andrew Miller multiple inning swing and miss
28:38
Speaker 3: reliever versus I think he profiles more like an Andre
28:41
Speaker 3: Palante receiver. hunting weak contact, limiting walks, mixing his strikeouts,
28:46
Speaker 3: and get deep into the ballgame.
28:50
Speaker 1: And Lance, here's another reason why I think you would
28:52
Speaker 1: like him. Every guy in the bullpen has confirmed this,
28:57
Speaker 1: but he is the loudest, yappiest guy out in the
29:02
Speaker 1: bullpen during games, and I know you appreciate that.
29:06
Speaker 4: He's got a little bit of that Northeastern in him, right?
29:08
Speaker 4: That's very strong. Are we surprised by any of that?
29:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
29:12
Speaker 3: The shoe fits. Yes.
29:14
Speaker 4: And you have to remember, we were teammates with him.
29:16
Speaker 4: You're acting like we don't know the kid. Like, he
29:20
Speaker 4: did come up that year.
29:22
Speaker 1: No, I get that. But also, you're not out in
29:25
Speaker 1: the bullpen here. And his first year, he wasn't as loud.
29:29
Speaker 3: Now, you're safe. He was quieter, for sure.
29:32
Speaker 4: You get a little comfortable, it starts coming out. But yeah,
29:35
Speaker 4: I'm not surprised the Northeastern's coming out of him. Hell no.
29:38
Speaker 3: I'm not. All right. All right. Lance was a little
29:43
Speaker 3: quieter April and May of 2018. And then the end
29:47
Speaker 3: of May hit and something switched and Big Bear got
29:50
Speaker 3: hot and Big Bear got a little louder. So every
29:52
Speaker 3: now and then a little success will bring in, you know,
29:55
Speaker 3: the true roots of you. And I hope Gordon's settling
29:58
Speaker 3: in because he's been really good. Can't get too hard.
30:01
Speaker 3: Can't get too hard.
30:03
Speaker 1: No, but let's be honest, though. When Lance came up,
30:06
Speaker 1: who were the other guys in the rotation? You're not
30:09
Speaker 1: going to see any rookie walking around talking with that group, right?
30:14
Speaker 4: No. Carpenter.
30:19
Speaker 2: Right?
30:20
Speaker 1: Come on. Yeah.
30:21
Speaker 3: All right, last thing. He didn't have the same police
30:23
Speaker 3: in Minnesota with me and Odorizzi and Berrios. We really
30:27
Speaker 3: couldn't tame down the bear in 2018.
30:29
Speaker 4: I think he'd get comfy quick, though. He'd get comfy quick.
30:32
Speaker 4: I got in trouble when I was young for getting
30:34
Speaker 4: comfy quick. There's no other way.
30:37
Speaker 3: To say that.
30:38
Speaker 4: It taught me how to teach people not to get
30:40
Speaker 4: comfy quick.
30:42
Speaker 1: I remember the story.
30:43
Speaker 3: Last thing.
30:45
Speaker 1: Jose Fermin. I think we talked about him on the
30:48
Speaker 1: podcast earlier. I just think he was a guy who was,
30:53
Speaker 1: in my opinion, sort of roster putty for a while, right?
30:57
Speaker 1: Just a guy to plug holes, didn't expect too much.
31:00
Speaker 1: And as the season went along, this guy has played
31:04
Speaker 1: every position except pitcher and catcher, although he wants to
31:07
Speaker 1: be the next position player that gets a chance to pitch.
31:11
Speaker 1: He's hit everywhere in the batting order, everywhere, except the
31:15
Speaker 1: number two spot. And when the Cardinals rally or have
31:19
Speaker 1: a big inning, Firmino is always smack in the middle,
31:23
Speaker 1: giving a really good at-bat or coming through in the clutch.
31:26
Speaker 1: I want to know from you guys, I'll start with
31:29
Speaker 1: you on this, Kyle, to have a guy like that
31:32
Speaker 1: on your team who, in my opinion, kind of came
31:35
Speaker 1: out of nowhere to become this guy. What does that
31:37
Speaker 1: do for the ball club?
31:39
Speaker 3: Well, he goes a little unsung because his numbers aren't
31:43
Speaker 3: flashy right now. Earlier in the year, he was really
31:45
Speaker 3: hitting the ball well, and his numbers looked better than this.
31:48
Speaker 3: And recently, he's been struggling a little bit. But when
31:51
Speaker 3: you talk to the people in the locker room, that's
31:53
Speaker 3: how you're going to get an idea of who Jose
31:55
Speaker 3: Firmino is and what he means to the ball club.
31:58
Speaker 3: He is, and I'm sure fans and people hate to
32:01
Speaker 3: hear this, he is a glue guy that is the
32:03
Speaker 3: same guy that every day shows up, no matter what's
32:06
Speaker 3: going on, the exact same. Got a smile on his face.
32:08
Speaker 3: He's positive. And I think that's what allows him to
32:11
Speaker 3: be in the middle of these rallies, in the middle
32:13
Speaker 3: of the big moments, because he's never up and down.
32:17
Speaker 3: You know, if you're up and down and you get
32:19
Speaker 3: put in a big spot in the time when you're down,
32:22
Speaker 3: you've got to try to elevate yourself to the moment.
32:24
Speaker 3: And that just doesn't play that well. If you're always
32:27
Speaker 3: even keel and you're the same guy, when that big
32:30
Speaker 3: moment arises, you're not trying to change your yard and
32:32
Speaker 3: flip a switch. And that's one thing Jose Fermin does
32:35
Speaker 3: really well. And Kyle is dead on.
32:37
Speaker 1: So this is, Fermin is a guy who is even keel.
32:41
Speaker 1: And the numbers are, let's face it, they're pedestrians. But
32:44
Speaker 1: he's really good with two strungs, and I think it's
32:47
Speaker 1: because he is even-keeled. I think a lot of hitters,
32:51
Speaker 1: especially in clutch situations, freak when there's two strikes. He
32:55
Speaker 1: always seems to give you a good at-bat because he's
32:58
Speaker 1: able to stay in the middle without going too far
33:00
Speaker 1: up or too far down, Lance.
33:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you look at his approach at the plate,
33:05
Speaker 4: the way he stands and stuff like that. He has
33:08
Speaker 4: a good base. He's got a good eye. He's got
33:09
Speaker 4: all those things. So when you have all those, the
33:12
Speaker 4: game doesn't speed up on you, and you don't swing it.
33:15
Speaker 4: usually bad pitches and stuff like that. The way that
33:18
Speaker 4: he can go around the field and stuff like that,
33:20
Speaker 4: he's a little bit of a, I mean, look at
33:23
Speaker 4: the bench coach, Daniel Descalzo type of player where you're
33:28
Speaker 4: not going to sit here and get a bunch of
33:30
Speaker 4: praise for everything you bring to a ball club. But
33:33
Speaker 4: when you look up at the end of the year,
33:34
Speaker 4: he filled the holes that were needed as the year
33:37
Speaker 4: went on. He had some clutch hits. He made good
33:41
Speaker 4: at-bats when he was in there. He did all the
33:43
Speaker 4: things you need to do to not be a hole
33:46
Speaker 4: in the lineup or a hole on the field when
33:48
Speaker 4: it's your time to play. And then you look up
33:51
Speaker 4: and you're out there more than anyone expects you to be.
33:55
Speaker 4: Descalzo probably had way more defensive prowess, especially with his glove,
34:01
Speaker 4: but very similar with a bat. It's like, man, you
34:04
Speaker 4: really can't sneak anything behind. You can't just dominate them.
34:08
Speaker 4: As a pitcher, it's not like the bench guy that
34:11
Speaker 4: you just say, hey, here's my three heaters. Go away.
34:14
Speaker 4: I'll see you when you come back. Thanks for putting
34:16
Speaker 4: this guy in the lineup today. He's not that guy,
34:19
Speaker 4: and neither was Dee. So I think he's a good
34:21
Speaker 4: ball player. He's good to help a team off the bench.
34:25
Speaker 4: Might not have anything that's going to be, hey, I
34:27
Speaker 4: can be an everyday guy, but he's a guy that
34:30
Speaker 4: makes the lineup longer when guys need a break, can
34:32
Speaker 4: play every position. He's going to give you quality at bats,
34:35
Speaker 4: and you need those guys to be have a quality
34:38
Speaker 4: winning team. And I think he's kind of like the
34:40
Speaker 4: rest of the group. That's kind of surprised in the
34:42
Speaker 4: sense of they have the pieces to put together a
34:45
Speaker 4: winning ball club every day, no matter what, they just
34:48
Speaker 4: might not have the star power yet, but they're good
34:51
Speaker 4: ball players. The guys are playing the game the right
34:52
Speaker 4: way and they're doing what's asked of them when it's
34:55
Speaker 4: their turn to perform. And he's one of those guys
34:57
Speaker 4: that we think very highly of this year with what
34:59
Speaker 4: he's done.
35:00
Speaker 1: Feminator is having a really, really good season. That's going
35:03
Speaker 1: to do it for this edition of Cardinal Territory. We'll
35:06
Speaker 1: see you next time. Hopefully, that episode won't suck.