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Portfolio Ideation & Development: Strategic Growth in Pharma | Executive Dose · Pharmacy Podcast Network

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  Speaker 1: You are listening to the global network of podcasters dedicated
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  Speaker 1: to the pharmacy profession. Welcome to the Pharmacy podcast Network.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to Executive Dose, the podcast where pharmaceutical leadership meets
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  Speaker 2: unfiltered insight. Hosted by Stephen Beckman, CEO of Your All Pharma.
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  Speaker 2: Each episode explores the complex forces shaping today's pharmaceutical industry,
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  Speaker 2: from global supply chain stress and regulatory shakeups to innovation
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  Speaker 2: in branded and generic drug markets. Join us as we
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  Speaker 2: engage sea level leaders and decision makers and candid conversations
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  Speaker 2: about navigating disruption, driving growth, and preparing for the next
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  Speaker 2: era of pharmaceutical transfer. Curiosity leads, strategy follows. This is
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  Speaker 2: the Executive Dose.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, welcome back to the Executive.
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  Speaker 4: Dose podcast with our host Steven Beckman. Steven, it's great
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  Speaker 4: to see in the studio, Todd.
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  Speaker 5: It is a pleasure always to get to the studio
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  Speaker 5: and being with you and see all the glamor that
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: comes for being in such a fancy, well done podcast studio.
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  Speaker 5: It's always cool to be here. Plus it gets me
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  Speaker 5: out of the office or out of the house, and
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  Speaker 5: that's a good thing too.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, we love having you in the studio. It does
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  Speaker 4: break things up. I like, we do a lot of
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  Speaker 4: zooming and a lot of Internet connection meetings. But having
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  Speaker 4: people in the studio physically, I think is fun. And
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  Speaker 4: we always bring great content and guests to the Executive Dose,
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  Speaker 4: and today is another exciting guest.
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  Speaker 6: And I'm so good.
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  Speaker 4: This guy's your friend and you understand who he is,
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  Speaker 4: and we're gonna be drill down into pharma manufacture's portfolio ideation.
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  Speaker 6: So I'm excited about this. Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it's a pleasure to have Joe Hendrickson with
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  Speaker 5: us today. He's the head of strategy and corporate development
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  Speaker 5: for Sevovia.
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  Speaker 6: I said that right, Joe, didn't.
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  Speaker 3: I yeah, rolled off your tongue.
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  Speaker 5: Nice, thank you, because nobody can spell you or pronounce
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  Speaker 5: your ral correctly it's ural or your ral or many others. Yeah,
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  Speaker 5: it's a pleasure to have Joe here today because we're
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  Speaker 5: going to talk about a topic I think is really important.
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  Speaker 5: You know, when we started this podcast, it was all
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  Speaker 5: about kind of pulling back the curtainer round manufacturers and
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  Speaker 5: then through that conversation, how that information and insight kind
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  Speaker 5: of travels down the supply chain or the value chain,
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  Speaker 5: especially to pharmacy and patient and the goal was that
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  Speaker 5: if everybody had a little bit better understanding, a little
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  Speaker 5: better appreciation for the challenges we all have, because we
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  Speaker 5: all want to talk about our challenges. We know it's
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  Speaker 5: a lot of the things that we've talked about in
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  Speaker 5: the podcast about pharmacy level challenges, whether it be uh,
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  Speaker 5: you know, reimbursement rates and what they're getting paid and
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  Speaker 5: you know how many prescriptions actually make money versus not
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  Speaker 5: make money and maintaining staff and all the different things
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  Speaker 5: that go along with it. But you know, part of
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  Speaker 5: this is that we have to understand we're all connected. There.
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  Speaker 5: The interdependency in this industry is, you know, second to none,
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  Speaker 5: and and understanding how manufacturers operate, work, what their opportunities are,
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  Speaker 5: what their challenges are, I think allows people to have
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  Speaker 5: a greater appreciation for that area of that value chain.
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  Speaker 5: And when that happens, conversations start. Per assumptions are not
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  Speaker 5: made in the same way. And you know, that's really
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  Speaker 5: why it's so exciting to have Joe Henderson here today.
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  Speaker 5: And yes, Joe and I are very good friends. Joe
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  Speaker 5: and I go back a long way. He's put up
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  Speaker 5: with me and in companies that we've worked to together,
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  Speaker 5: and you know, he's he's such a good friend. He's
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  Speaker 5: actually going to be in my wedding income September. So
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  Speaker 5: a little little news for those people that are starting
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: to get to know who Steve Beckman is. Yes, I
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  Speaker 5: am dumping back into the marital bliss a second time
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  Speaker 5: in September, and Joe will hopefully be standing right next
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  Speaker 5: to me to keep me straight and steady through that event.
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  Speaker 4: So one of the things in content development and podcasting,
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  Speaker 4: what you just said, it's called an easter egg.
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  Speaker 6: Easter egg, and what's that mean.
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  Speaker 4: It's a little hidden a.
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  Speaker 6: Little easter egg. Of course.
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  Speaker 5: See, I'm getting better podcasting every day. So you know,
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  Speaker 5: one of the reasons we wanted Joe on as a
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  Speaker 5: guest is that he has been around his entire career, uh,
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  Speaker 5: developing portfolios for organizations big and small, and I've never
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  Speaker 5: met anybody that's been any better at kind of bringing
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  Speaker 5: everything together and understanding and making good critical decisions.
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  Speaker 6: And we wanted to.
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  Speaker 5: Share that with the audience. Today is about you know,
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  Speaker 5: what it goes and what it takes. And you know
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  Speaker 5: he has a pharmacist by background too, so you know,
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  Speaker 5: all the best people in our industry all start in pharmacy.
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  Speaker 5: You know, we're a pharmacist at one point, So Joe,
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  Speaker 5: welcome to the show.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I wish
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  Speaker 3: I was in the studio with you guys. It looks
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  Speaker 3: like an excellent place to be able to do a
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  Speaker 3: podcast from, but we'll make the best out of the
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  Speaker 3: zoom call and thank you for the introduction. I am
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  Speaker 3: trained as a pharmacist and have spent my entire career
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  Speaker 3: focused on bringing therapies to market that improve patient care.
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  Speaker 3: When you're in pharmacy school, that's probably not your goal.
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  Speaker 3: You want to just help patients. And when you get
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  Speaker 3: to get into the industry and have a platform as
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  Speaker 3: big as some of the ones that I've been fortunate
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  Speaker 3: enough to serve on, you can take that to a
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  Speaker 3: much greater number of patients. It's not just a one
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  Speaker 3: on one interaction with a patient or a physician to
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  Speaker 3: teach them about how to improve pharmaco therapy. This is
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  Speaker 3: a chance to improve the lives of millions, and I
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  Speaker 3: take that very seriously and it's been a great journey.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm always happy to get on the phone and
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  Speaker 3: be able to talk about that.
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  Speaker 5: Well, you know, there's a lot said in there, and
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  Speaker 5: I'll pack it quickly, and I think the messages is
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  Speaker 5: that you know, there's a lot of people in the
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  Speaker 5: farm out side of things that and why we get
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  Speaker 5: into it to do it for the right reason. So
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  Speaker 5: you know, at the end of the day, don't I
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  Speaker 5: don't care if you're a pharmacist, a physician, some kind
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  Speaker 5: of allied health professional, or anybody in between. The people
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  Speaker 5: that work in these manufacturing companies are there for the
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  Speaker 5: good of the patient. And it was so great to
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  Speaker 5: hear Joe say that. So Joe, maybe we can open
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  Speaker 5: with just the kind of the thirty thousand foot questions
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  Speaker 5: why does portfolio strategy matter? You know for pharmaceuticals organizations,
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  Speaker 5: And there's some probably obvious things why it matters, But
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  Speaker 5: then how does that kind of translate down to if
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  Speaker 5: it matters at our level as a manufacturer, how does
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  Speaker 5: that translate down all the way to the patient.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, let's face it, we're in a industry that
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  Speaker 3: makes and sells products, right, so picking the right products
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  Speaker 3: is critical to ensuring that you know your strategies are
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  Speaker 3: aligned with the market opportunities it's a lot different portfolio
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  Speaker 3: strategy is now than it was before. It's you know,
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  Speaker 3: even five years ago, it's different. It's no longer about
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  Speaker 3: developing the largest portfolio right and you have. It's really
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  Speaker 3: about developing the right portfolio. I use an analogy, and
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  Speaker 3: I know someone on this podcast has borrowed it a
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  Speaker 3: couple of times. It's not about who has the most marbles.
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  Speaker 3: It's about getting the biggest marbles.
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  Speaker 5: In my mind, I have to come clean on that.
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  Speaker 5: That's true. You know, you know the reality of the world,
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  Speaker 5: and this goes brand or generic, and maybe even more
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  Speaker 5: so much more on the generic side or even biosimilars.
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  Speaker 5: To that matter, is that it used to be the
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  Speaker 5: success of a company was based on how big their portfolio.
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  Speaker 5: Joe and I worked together a company that had over
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  Speaker 5: thirty six hundred products if I remember worldwide at one point,
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  Speaker 5: maybe even higher, and that company has taken a great
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  Speaker 5: change in being able to be sustainable long term. So
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  Speaker 5: having the right marbles is exactly what it's all about
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  Speaker 5: in today's world, whether your brand, generic, or even as
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  Speaker 5: some kind of hybrid between the two.
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  Speaker 3: You know, more marbles means more complexity, and so when
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  Speaker 3: looking for assets. It's really trying to find the right
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  Speaker 3: ones that fit with the organization to minimize some of
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  Speaker 3: the complexities. Right now, manufacturers are facing, you know, huge
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  Speaker 3: pricing pressures, multiple competitors leading to rapid genericization when they
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  Speaker 3: lose exclusivity. The regulatory environment is becoming more complex, and
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  Speaker 3: most importantly, you can make a great drug, but if
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  Speaker 3: there's no one that wants to pay for it, it's
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  Speaker 3: a bust. So all of these things have to be
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  Speaker 3: taken into consideration when when making these choices, and the
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  Speaker 3: companies that win are those that identify opportunities where the
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  Speaker 3: clinical value, the operational value, and the commercial value all
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  Speaker 3: come together. And what hinges it on the commercial value
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  Speaker 3: is not only being able to drive demand by having
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  Speaker 3: a strong value proposition and a good target product profile,
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  Speaker 3: it's also ensuring that payers understand that and that you
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  Speaker 3: have evidence to support it, because everyone's going to say
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  Speaker 3: their products better and therefore should get the premium. But
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  Speaker 3: what payers are saying more and more now is show
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  Speaker 3: me the evidence.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I know, and Todd, I think that's a really
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  Speaker 5: important point that Joe's making because when you think about it,
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  Speaker 5: there are it's complex, right, and there's Marrny the layers
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  Speaker 5: to the decision making process, and I think did a
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  Speaker 5: very nice job of saying that at least the three
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  Speaker 5: core ones. We got the clinical, we've got the operational,
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  Speaker 5: and then we've got the commercial. And you know, a
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  Speaker 5: lot of times now in the old days, you know,
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  Speaker 5: twenty thirty years ago, if you if you put out
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  Speaker 5: a problem, got approved and you were a better marketer,
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  Speaker 5: you've got your fair share in the marketplace. You know, today,
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  Speaker 5: a better mousetrap doesn't mean that you're going to have success.
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  Speaker 5: That doesn't mean payers are going to pay for it,
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  Speaker 5: because they're already feel that they're satisfied. So it's really
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  Speaker 5: really essential that when you look at terms of portfolio
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  Speaker 5: development that Joe's leading to is that you have to
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  Speaker 5: make sure that you can check the boxes on all
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  Speaker 5: three of those categories.
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  Speaker 6: And it's getting.
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  Speaker 5: Harder and harder to do that, and as a result,
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  Speaker 5: that means there's more challenge for the manufacturing side to
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  Speaker 5: continue to build a new and growing and diverse, robust
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  Speaker 5: portfolio that actually enhances what's already in the market today.
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  Speaker 5: And I think that that is thing that a lot
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  Speaker 5: of people should know. This I always say that pharmaceuticals
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  Speaker 5: is a high stakes industry. I don't know of another
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  Speaker 5: high stakes industry where companies are actually required to put
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  Speaker 5: out hundreds of millions of dollars, wait a long period
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  Speaker 5: of time, and then most likely have just a little
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  Speaker 5: bit of time to actually recoup their initial investment before
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  Speaker 5: the market dynamics changed dramatically. So, Joe, when you think
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  Speaker 5: about those three, how did that play.
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  Speaker 6: Is there a priority to that?
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  Speaker 5: Do you think with most companies that you know, you know,
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  Speaker 5: at the end of the day, it has to be
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  Speaker 5: commercially successful. Or but there are companies that still put
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  Speaker 5: out products that are for orphan diseases and different things,
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  Speaker 5: So there's different risk profiles to the portfolio. So how
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  Speaker 5: do you think most companies look at that that structure
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  Speaker 5: that you articulated.
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  Speaker 3: I still think it boils down that people who get
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  Speaker 3: into healthcare want to help people, and so you look
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  Speaker 3: for the areas of unmett the underserved populations. Sometimes those
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  Speaker 3: are huge populations and it leads to development of a
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  Speaker 3: blockbuster product. Other times it's a very unique patient population
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  Speaker 3: that requires orphan status in order to be successful. Either way,
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  Speaker 3: the science has to step up and take care of
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  Speaker 3: an issue that is currently being dealt with in the marketplace,
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  Speaker 3: either by the patients or by the caregivers, or by
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  Speaker 3: the organizations that are caring for these patients. So what
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  Speaker 3: I do is I try to look for friction, Steven.
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  Speaker 3: I try and look to where the pain points are
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  Speaker 3: in the overall drug prescribing and distribution system. Where is
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  Speaker 3: their inefficiencies, where there's waste, where are there workflow burdens,
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  Speaker 3: and where are clinicians and pharmacists required to make workarounds
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  Speaker 3: that ultimately lead to more medical errors and issues that
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  Speaker 3: can be solved by bringing in a better mouse trap.
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  Speaker 5: So when you say pain points, I think, if I'm
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  Speaker 5: hearing you correctly, and I would agree if this is
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  Speaker 5: if I'm interpreting correctly, is that the pain points could
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  Speaker 5: be at different points along that value chain, right, And
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  Speaker 5: the question is of finding those and understanding it's just
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  Speaker 5: not a putting out a product that has something one
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  Speaker 5: unique things in their profile, you know, features and benefits.
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  Speaker 5: It's something that is going to potentially impact in a
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  Speaker 5: way in the value system that ultimately translates down the patient.
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  Speaker 6: Is that what you're saying?
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely? And I think Stephen, it takes it takes a
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  Speaker 3: real multidisciplinary approach or to be successful. You get a
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  Speaker 3: bunch of commercial guys around the table reviewing data, they're
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  Speaker 3: going to go where the zeros in the commas are right.
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  Speaker 3: Get a bunch of scientists there, they're going to be
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  Speaker 3: looking where the cool science is happening. You get the
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  Speaker 3: finance guys there and they're going to say, you know,
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  Speaker 3: how much is it going to cost me and what
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to make. Real good decisions come when those
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  Speaker 3: groups come together, along with clinicians to balance those forces
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  Speaker 3: into creating a viable commercial opportunity. The way we de
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  Speaker 3: risk that is by talking to key stakeholders at the
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  Speaker 3: point of care, pharmacists, physicians, nurses, procurement leaders, even payers,
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  Speaker 3: finding out where those friction points are and what interventions
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  Speaker 3: we can make to a product to help solve that.
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  Speaker 3: That to me is is where it all, you know,
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  Speaker 3: comes together and where companies who are successful have made
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  Speaker 3: that balance, where the ones that are less diverse from
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  Speaker 3: a group decision making group, they tend to struggle a
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  Speaker 3: lot more with that process.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, So Todd again, I think what has to be
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  Speaker 5: understood here is that there's multiple layers and multiple factors
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  Speaker 5: and multiple stakeholders that ultimately have an influence. That you
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  Speaker 5: can have a product that might be a really good
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  Speaker 5: product and it's profiled, it might work a very health
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  Speaker 5: of very specific sub population of patient population. But to
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  Speaker 5: Joe's point, that the payer doesn't see it that way,
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  Speaker 5: then the ability for that product to be successful is
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  Speaker 5: significantly her. I think again, twenty five years ago, we
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: did not do or worry about payers. We used to
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: do monographs and we used to throw them a thirty
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  Speaker 5: page document that went through all the science and went
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: all the through the things because clinically that was still
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: important in there. We didn't worry about the fact that
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  Speaker 5: pricing and availability and everything that comes along with access
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  Speaker 5: as now the corner point.
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  Speaker 6: So what was once purely based on.
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  Speaker 5: The clinical value of the drug and the effectiveness of
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  Speaker 5: the marketing promotion and sales promotion would dictate the successive
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  Speaker 5: failure of that company or that drug and how that
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  Speaker 5: translated down the patient.
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  Speaker 6: Now, if if.
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: You don't get it right right out of kate in
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  Speaker 5: terms of being understanding that it's going to be a
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  Speaker 5: product that's going to be insected, accepted into the marketplace,
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  Speaker 5: that the conditions that Joe was talking about and finding
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  Speaker 5: those pain points and make the argument, and the argument
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  Speaker 5: is still always going to now have to be equally
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  Speaker 5: on value or price and the science. The science will
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  Speaker 5: never go away. I think Joe made a good point
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  Speaker 5: with that, is that at the end of the day,
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  Speaker 5: you've got to have a product that's You're never going
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: to get a product a proved unless you have the
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: science behind it.
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  Speaker 6: But now the weighting and the pressure.
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  Speaker 5: So when you think about that, Joe, you know, you know,
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  Speaker 5: then how do these companies really identify these opportunities and gaps?
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  Speaker 5: I mean, what is the process and and maybe share
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  Speaker 5: with people that you know, this is not a couple
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: of people working in an office doing a little a
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: little work. This is this is a as you said,
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  Speaker 5: a multifaceted effort, and maybe give people maybe appreciation in
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: your day or uh, you know, half a year of
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: what you do to go through to identify whether or
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: not an opportunity makes sense or not.
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  Speaker 3: It's a great question, and it's something that you know,
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: I wake up and get to do every day and
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: I don't even call what I do work, right, I
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: get to have fun just about every day, coming up
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: with new product ideas solve challenges. But but how I
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: prioritize is is, you know, we look at clinical need,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: does this solve a meaningful problem? And we look at
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  Speaker 3: the regulatory feasibility? Can we realistically navigate the FDA pathway? Right?
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  Speaker 3: Why has no one else done it? If it's such
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  Speaker 3: a good idea that tracks back a regulatory feasibility issue
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  Speaker 3: the commercial viability? You know, will customers adopt it? Okay?
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  Speaker 3: And the customers have changed, steven. Prescribers no longer make
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: the majority of their prescribing decisions. Institutions in an organizations
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  Speaker 3: dictate what they prescribe, how much they can prescribe, and
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: when they can prescribe it. It's changed dramatically. The autonomy
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: of an individual physician has been reduced incredibly, and more
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: reliances on pharmacists and other key decision makers within the
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: care process that look over the overall well being, financial
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: wellbeing of the organization. And that's why you have to
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: look at reimbursement. You know, can payers make sense of
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: the argument? Are where they willing to buy it? And
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: then finally, can we make it? Can we reliably produce
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: this at scale so that our supply chain remains intact,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: and people don't, you know, change your product because they
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: because they can't get it. So when those series of
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: things line up is when I start getting very excited
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: about a product. But very rarely do they all do
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: they all work out that way, And so you have to,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: you know, dig into your specialists in each of those
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: areas to figure out either workarounds or the most efficient
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: way to do it. The last thing I want to
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: hear when I come up with an idea is no, right,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: I want to hear no, But why not?
• 19:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah, So, you know, I think a lot of things.
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: What Joe's saying, Todd is that, you know, the investment
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: of time and the investment money is incredibly high, but
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: there's still a lot of unknowns and certainties. And not
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: to get too far off track, but Joe, you made
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: a good comment and it leads back to my point
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: about interdependency and just the interdependency of identifying a drug
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: and bring into market. And one of those that a
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: lot of times gets short sighted is in that conversation
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: is manufacturing and front end supply, right, And I know
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: you've got a lot of expertise in this, you know,
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: so we know, for example, and it obviously was brought
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: to light recently with our federal government leadership and tariffs
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: and some of the things we're doing that you know
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: API for example, Todd is, I think the numbers over
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: ninety percent Joe of our API is coming out of
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: Asia Pacific or ninety three maybe even higher. That creates
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: a real challenge in terms of all the different topics
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: you can talk about, drug, security, costs, quality.
• 20:35
  Speaker 6: How difficult is just the.
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: You can identify a target, you can find that opportunity,
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: But when it comes into putting all the parts together
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: and actually making the engine run. How difficult is the
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: front end manufacturing part of this? Because I think a
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: lot of people might not really appreciate some of the
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: nuances and challenges that you see on that side or
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: that portion of this whole process.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Fortunately, engineers are trained to figure things out, and most
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: of our engineers that I've been able to work with
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: over the years on the manufacturing side are able to
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: overcome these challenges. Unfortunately, it's not always in a timely fashion,
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: and and it leads to product can lead to product
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: shortages and disruption and supply. But what I found is
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: when you go after the more highly technical and difficult
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: to manufacture products that only a few of the engineers
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: can figure out, you have a better operating environment, and
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: that there's less competitors, right, And so we search out
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: those types of situations where it's not something that everybody
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: can do, and that allows us to get into higher
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: margin markets where competition is less and the innovation is appreciated.
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: I always like to say that when people talk to
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: me about how, especially like the generic industry has evolved.
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: You know, ten years ago we would describe ourselves as small, medium,
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: and large, right, and now we're commodity. Now we're complex,
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: Now we're biosimilar. And maybe the fourth category is what
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: all the big guys are doing and gals are doing,
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: which is this hybrid combination of high value generics with
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: brand right. And I think that's what is interesting is
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: that part of the ideaization and things is when we
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: say complex products, it's not because the per se the product.
• 22:42
  Speaker 6: Is so unique.
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: Is that we're looking for products that are complex enough
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: that we can reduce the competitive set. And when we
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: can reduce the competitive set, it actually is good. That
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: might sound bad, I think personally as a manufacturer, that's
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: good because one that creates longer sustainability to those assets
• 23:00
  Speaker 5: that we are bringing to the market to help patients.
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: And quite frankly, probably the biggest, one important and one
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: that's always on top of everybody's mind is that when
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: we're in that environment that allows us pricing continuity and
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: what I like to call right pricing, not best pricing,
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: and that creates an environment where everybody wins. Manufacturer can win,
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: the physician has the assets to the tools and the
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: products that they want to provide the patients. The patients
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: win because access is there in pricing. And ultimately, even
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: though we don't like to talk about the pairs a lot,
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: the payers win too because everybody gets the fair piece
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: of the value and the access to those products. So
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: there's a lot of a lot of these moving parts. So, Joe,
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: if I was to ask you, when you find one
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: of these pain points and you start down the path
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: that try to take it from identification or concept to
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: commercial launch, what's that timeline look like?
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: Very rarely? So you know, ninety five percent of my
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: career and business has been in the multisurce. I started
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: out in the branded industry, built a blockbuster with a
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: branded product, but transitioned into generics and improved generics, right,
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: and everything takes at least three to five years.
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: I mean, anyone who.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Says they can do anything quicker than three to five
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: years might be a miracle worker or might be pulling
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: your leg, you know, because that's just the timelines that
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: you know, thirty years of experience has shown. I won't
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: commit to anything less than less than that.
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And again I think for our listeners that's important.
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think everybody generally understands there's a timeline,
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: and these timelines are longer. But if we take an
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: NCEE on the brand side, we could be looking at
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: twelve years, right, And the patent laws have never changed
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: since the day I've been in this industry. And the
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: sad part is is I've been in this industry over
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: thirty years, So that means the patents haven't really changed
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: with the more complexity that Joe talked about in terms
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: and those timelines. So we find ourselves on the brand
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: inside at the east side, a very little window in
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: which these organizations who are making hundreds of million dollars
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: worth of investment in time to make it.
• 25:25
  Speaker 6: But even on the.
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: Complex generic or advanced generics or improved generics. I think
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: Joe said, you know, we're still looking at three, four
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: or five years the dollars to bringing these products forward,
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: and the complexity whether it's an and A which is
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: a directly substitutable generic or a five oh five B
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: two pathway which has still got to be promoted. The
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: investment on these products are still enormous in time, and
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: that's what I think is important for patients to know
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: and performances andnarvity is that there's companies out there that
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: still are fighting the fight there Now in any industry,
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: I don't care if it's pharmacuticals others, there's always a
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: bad player here and there. But I think in the
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: most is that we need to appreciate that the timeline
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: and the commitment because it's easy. You know, you get
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: a setback in development or a condition that Joe said,
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: that opens up an opportunity and a gap in the market,
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: and the conditions change and you've already spent X amount
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: of time and money. And because things move fast in
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: this industry, even ones that you identify, Joe, I'm sure
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: some that you've had to stop halfway through the program
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: as well.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: One hundred percent. This market changes at an alarmingly fast rate,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: which is a good thing as well. But you have
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: to be nimble. You have to understand that all of
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: the projections that you made about the future are generally wrong,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: sometimes way bigger than you'd like to admit. But by
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: continuingly evaluating new opportunities and and and and changing what
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: you do, that's how you have to stay ahead of
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: the game. Uh. No longer our companies having these huge
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: portfolios with some loss leaders. They're losing money on this
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: one in order to make money on it. The game
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: is over. People can't afford to lose money on products anymore. Uh,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: just so they can make some more, make it some
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: more somewhere else. They have to cull these these unprofitable products.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: And that leads to, you know, market issues that somebody
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: else will will come and address and and and that
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: usually is somebody who has invested in the right equipment
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: can get their cost of goods in a place that
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: are more palatable and and and drive a margin that
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: is sustainable from a long term business standpoint.
• 27:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: So we've talked a lot about kind of the process
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: and some of the channels and kind of the reality
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: of what you've faced historically and kind of present. So
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: if we switched the script a little bit and talk
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: about the future, what's the future hold in terms of
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: pharmaceutical pipeline development and ideation? Do you do you see
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: it becoming more challenging less challenging? Do we see less
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: companies more companies? You know what's going to happen? Or
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: maybe another way of saying, is a successful company is
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: going to have to do what based on the future,
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: meaning you know, the pricing pressures or market access or regulation,
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: those different influences. I changed, what's a good company going
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: to have to do? And where do you think we're
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: ultimately going to see ourselves in five years? Are we
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: going to see that we are going to be in
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: the position for companies to bring those better assets, whether
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: they be ncs or other Are we are we going
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: to see that in five years we're going to be
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: happy with all this product ideation and effort we put
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: in that we'll be servicing the patient population better in
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: five years. Or are we going to see ourselves really
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: st ugling? I put aside things like biosolars maybe for
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: a minute. I mean, that's obviously here and now and
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: been big, but UH, where do you see it all
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: going based on all those different uh kind of components,
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: whether it be regulatory supply, et cetera.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, innovation is still the key to
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: value creation, and companies will continue to innovate and and
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: work on these challenges, and they're going to have to
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: be relying way more on real world data, real world
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: evidence generation. UH at the early phases, UH, in conjunction
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: with clinical trials for new chemical entities and for five
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: or five B two and other minor improvements in products. UH,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: they're they're they're gonna you're gonna have to show the
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: data if it can't just be a hypothetical improvement or
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: or even a meaningful So it was like a meaningful improvement,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: If you don't have the data to back that up,
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: you're not going to You're not going to get the uppick.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: I am optimistic that that the new technologies and AI
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: and the other interventions that that are being developed right now,
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: including continuous API manufacturing and you know, buildings the side
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: of a garage, not the size of a football stadium,
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: are all going to allow us to continue to be nimble.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: I hope we see a bit more on shoring of
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: some of our own uh apish where it makes sense,
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: but we can't walk away from the global opportunity, right Uh,
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: these areas are are supplying products at a lower cost,
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: and APIs at a lower costs. And I'm a pharmacist.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: US pharmacists are fickle. We see a lower price, we
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: go to it. We don't really care where it's made,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: as long as the quality is there and you have
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: to has seen it, you know that that's sort of
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: of the right right way. But yeah, working with having
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: a solid quality track record backed up by you know,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: a strong supply ability to supply are all things that
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: will continue to be valued. And I think we'll get
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: will continue to get better.
• 31:23
  Speaker 6: Well, I think well said.
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: And as we start to wind down here because we
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: want to make sure that our podcast podcasters and our
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: followers and now that we stay white within that twenty
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: thirty minutes. But you did say one thing that we
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: probably should have talked talked about earlier and AI, And
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: in a couple of sentence, is is AI helping you
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: right now in the world that you work in?
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: And if so, how so historically Let's let's just go
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: ten years back to get the type of analysis that
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: I can get now in five minutes would have taken
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: six weeks and cost two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Now I can get that information summarise to me in minutes.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Whether or not I'm able to process all that information
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: and make it meaningful because it's all for information overload,
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: I think, remains to be determined. But there's no question
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: the amount of candidates I can look at and review
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: and give a thumbs up thumbs down to, or at
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: least a maybe two has increased dramatically. And what that
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: does is it also creates a lot more downstream work,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: right because then you've got to engage the regulatory people,
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: the manufacturing people, the quality people, and the finance people.
• 32:46
  Speaker 6: And so.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: We have to get more precise about picking a finite
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: number of really good candidates instead of shiny nickel chasing
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: the shiny nickel around the room that shows up and
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: someone thinks it's hot one day. If you've got a
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: good concept, it's been born out by your interviews with KOLs,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: and that includes prescribers and patients and caregivers, and the
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: market hasn't changed considerably. You've got to have the patience
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: to stick it out and bring it a market because
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: although things change, the fundamental friction that caused it to
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: be a good opportunity in the first place is probably
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: still present and you just have to work out some
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: of the other details like the pricing, the pay awareness,
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: and those types of things that make it a commercial success.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: But I don't like giving up on things. But when
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: you know, you beat your beat, and you've got to
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: be able to admit that and not have too big
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: of an ego to stick with something for too long.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: But if you had a good idea, it's one that
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: you should see all the way through, providing nothing's changed
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: significantly that would cause you to uh not want to
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: do that.
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So you know, Todd, I love this world word
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: friction that Joe's used. I mean it is a perfect
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: word for really Ultimately, how all this comes together is
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: that we have to find these points of friction that's
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: causing chang challenges, and through finding those areas of friction
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: and finding the solution through the ideation of what we do,
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: we can bring those those new products that will create
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: value all the way down. I think the other thing
• 34:34
  Speaker 5: that Joe said that resonates with me is that you know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: with all the change that you can have in any industry,
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: and God knows that this industry has as much as any,
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: is that there are still some concrete pillars that an
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: organization has to follow. And and Joe said it, I think, really, well,
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: then there that's innovation. But don't don't be captivate by
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: just this idea of innovation and created. Innovation takes time,
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: it takes money, and it takes quite frankly, it takes
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: a lot of guts and courage, and there's a lot
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: of courage and guts that go in to ultimately bring
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: products to the patient. And that's maybe if I was
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: to be selfish, I guess being on the manufacturer side,
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: is that maybe people will take away from this too,
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: is that there are people like Joe Henderson that are
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: working tirelessly to find that friction that are then applying
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: the responsibility of innovation against that to create something that's
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: going to be meaningful in the marketplace. Me too, products
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: just don't exist anymore like we used to. I mean again,
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: when I when I first started this industry, it didn't
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: matter you've got approval, it didn't matter you go out there,
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: you sold it better than somebody else.
• 35:48
  Speaker 6: You've got your fair share.
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: Now you can make a better product, and it doesn't
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: mean that the market's going to accept it on all
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: the things that we were talking about earlier, and that
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: means we have to have these conversations. And quite frankly,
• 35:59
  Speaker 5: Joe said, well, you got to call talk to the stakeholders.
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: So we got to continue to find ways for the
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: stakeholders at the patient, pharmacist, physician, even the payer, and
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: everybody else in between to understand how we're going to
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: create more value and and and ultimately where the value
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: goes in our system is a whole nother discussion, but
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: ultimately the goal is how we create value and opportunity
• 36:24
  Speaker 5: to make our patients better. Because, as you heard it
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: from Joe said, he didn't get into this business because
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: he wanted to make a lot of money. He wanted
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: to get into because he wanted to help patients. And
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: I think that part of that is the pedigree of
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: him being a pharmacist in his formal education. But innovation
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: is not cheap, and that means that that means the
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: same innovation innovation for pharmacy. How many people we've been
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: talking to you lately about how innovation and pharmacy has
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: to happen at the pharmacy level. And they're doing it,
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: but it takes time, and it takes money, and it
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: takes courage. So what we need to do is support
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: these individuals and these organizations that are doing exactly that.
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: So Joe, as we wrap up.
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: My friend and I can't thank you enough for being
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: on the on the podcast today. Is we always like
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: to give our guests kind of a final word. I mean,
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: you have a chance to speak to a community of
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: people which you serve, your customers, what we like to
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: say to them? What would you like them to know?
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: What would you like to end this podcast on.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: Two things like the first pharmaceutical industry is going to
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: continue to face uncertainty, right, but uncertainty creates opportunity. The
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: future is going to belong to those companies that can
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: combine scientific grigor commercial discipline, regulatory expertise, and deep customer understanding.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: That's where the winners are going to come from. Those
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: who listen to the market, not just read AI, not
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: just look at IQVA. They have to listen to people
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: in the market in order to get the really good ideas.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: It's the end users who know this better than we do.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: I'm a pharmacist, but I have not been in an
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: ivy room for thirty five years. For people who are
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: working in the ivy room every day, they got the
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: good ideas. So that's where I get down to and
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: talk to and that's what I encourage people to do.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: And my final statement is really a something that I'd
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: like to get your advice on, and that that has
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: to do with what hat you'd like me to wear
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: at your wedding.
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: Well, for those that don't know, Wow, there's a little
• 38:43
  Speaker 5: rivalry between Joe and I given that I'm an Ohio
• 38:47
  Speaker 5: State Buckeye fan and as you can see from his
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: display of fandom, he's a Michigan native and a graduate
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: of the Fine Institution. So we'll take that offline. Joe,
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: I think they're both pretty good colors. They're both earthy colors,
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: and since the wedding will be outside, I think both will.
• 39:11
  Speaker 5: We'll go and be honest with you, buddy, having you
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: there's all accounts, so you can wear whatever hat makes
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: you happy.
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: And on the very last word, I wish I was
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: going to.
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: Get the Joe, but he said one more good thing
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: and and that is listen. If I was really brutally honest,
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: and I hope Joe we would agree, is that when
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: we self reflect as us as a manufacturing part of
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: the industry, we've had a tendency over my thirty years
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: to not listen. There's there has been a prevailing sense
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: of arrogance. Maybe maybe that's not the right word.
• 39:52
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: Confidence, Let's use a positive word that companies know best
• 39:58
  Speaker 5: and and many times they are. But you know, if
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: you're going to do what Joe is talking about now
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: in today's.
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: World, you you you you.
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: Have no choice to listen, and you have to listen
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: at the grassroots level because quite frankly, that's only where
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: anywhere anyway that a lot of companies are going to
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: continue to be able to identify and produce a growing
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: portfolio UH to be successful and UH portfolio development is
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: been a pillar of the industry forever, and it should
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: make sense and it should be logical because we have
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: we have patents UH and we have UH a certain
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: level of exclusivity, so that means we have a time limit,
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: we have a shelf life on all these assets, and
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: if we're not replacing those assets and uh, then then
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: the question is how sustainable you are. And that's what
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: you ultimately as a business want to be is we
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: want to be sustainable and make profit and make enough
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: ability to continue to do what we do well for patients.
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: And and it's tougher because you know, when we start
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: moving many years ago to billion dollar assets, it's it's
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: one thing when you replace one hundred million dollars in
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: your portfolio, is another when you start trying to replace
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: two billion. They're just they don't go on growing trees
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: and you just pluck them off, as Joe is so
• 41:13
  Speaker 5: aptly discussed. So Joe wants you the best, have a
• 41:17
  Speaker 5: great weekend, look forward to seeing you really real soon.
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: And Todd, if we keep good guests like this man,
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: our numbers are going to get even better. So hope
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: it's meant something to everybody out there listening to us,
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: ass that could does.
• 41:31
  Speaker 6: Our goal has always.
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: Been is to be honest, open, discuss the matters and
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: the topics that will make a difference long term and
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: servicing the patients that we all care about and we
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: do all care about.
• 41:43
  Speaker 6: Absolutely.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: Thank you Joe, thank you Steven, thank you Todd. Appreciate it.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: And it was fun. Have a good day.