Latest / Adventure Sports Podcast / Ep. 1119: Protecting Your Access to Adventure - Caleb Burns

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Ep. 1119: Protecting Your Access to Adventure - Caleb Burns · Adventure Sports Podcast

0:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I just want people to have access to these areas so they can see them because I'm a true believer that if they can't see them, they won't value them.
0:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And they won't want to protect the right future.
0:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Episode 1119, Kila Burns returns protecting your access to adventure.
0:23
[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:25
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk with adventures from around the globe to bring you the inspiration and motivation you need to get started in the outdoors or to keep you moving if you're already there.
0:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, here's your host, Kurt Lindville.
0:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey friends, welcome to the Adventure Sports podcast again.
0:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I have returning guest, Caleb Burns with us today in Caleb, it was on fairly recently at the end of July, episode number 1095.
0:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And at that time, we were talking about the value of guiding, especially in the cascades.
1:00
[SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about how guiding can really be beneficial to help people get into new sports and into the wilderness in a safe way.
1:08
[SPEAKER_01]: and an enjoyable way.
1:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But toward the end of that conversation, we touched on something that's near and dear to my heart, and to Caleb's as well.
1:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And I invited Caleb to come back on the adventure sports podcast so we could spend some time on this.
1:23
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about public land use, public access to public lands.
1:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about the ways that various legislation and ideas and environmentalist ideas and ecological protections and there's so many things.
1:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about how that impacts
1:46
[SPEAKER_01]: the whole picture.
1:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're not here to talk about politics.
1:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just going to say that up front.
1:52
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to be political.
1:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, we want to be informative and offer perspectives for you to consider.
2:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And I say it that way purposefully, you don't have to agree with anything we say or disagree with anything we say in this conversation.
2:08
[SPEAKER_01]: We just want to share the perspectives
2:12
[SPEAKER_01]: about this amazing treasure that we share which are our public lands.
2:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what this episode is going to be about.
2:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But we'll talk about adventure and fun too.
2:23
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, Caleb, welcome again to the Adventure Sports podcast.
2:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for having me again.
2:28
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm stoked to be here.
2:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I realize Caleb, I probably won't like this anymore than I will, but I'm going to bring this up.
2:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You and I have something in common, sort of, Larry Linville, Frank Burns from Mash.
2:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Ah, yeah, remember that.
2:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm 18, I thought for a little bit now.
2:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's the old show now, but the reason I bring it up is because when Frank Burns, I mean, Larry Lindyles did such an amazing job or betraying Frank Burns, but he was such an annoying character.
3:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And Larry Lindyles just knocked it out of the park.
3:03
[SPEAKER_01]: He was really, really good at it.
3:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But anytime people would ask me, oh,
3:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you related to Larry Lynnville?
3:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't always thought Frank Burns.
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And here you are, Kayla Burns.
3:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So you probably had a little of that in your life too.
3:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
3:20
[SPEAKER_03]: But no, not too many people from my generation watched a mask.
3:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think, but I definitely wouldn't like that.
3:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I was a kid.
3:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
3:29
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I had grandparents in parents that were definitely into it.
3:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So I had to watch a little bit of that and kind of on a funny note.
3:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, in a past career, I actually met David Orson Sire as he was driving through and I knew him from mash, so it was just kind of funny.
3:44
[SPEAKER_03]: There you go.
3:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
3:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Up to you.
3:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, anyway, it's fun to start with a chuckle, so we have such an amazing, amazing resource in the United States of America, which is our public lands.
4:02
[SPEAKER_01]: and i don't know if everyone fully appreciates how valuable this is uh we have our national forest we have our uh bureau of land management lands be a limb we have the wilderness areas we have our national park system we have our state park system you know systems across the 50 states and i'm going to start this way Caleb when i've interviewed people especially from europe
4:32
[SPEAKER_01]: or bike packing, and then they talk about trying to find a place to sleep at night.
4:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And out of this came that this understanding that they don't have the public land systems that we do.
4:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And often these people I've interviewed
4:50
[SPEAKER_01]: They call it wild camping, but what they do is they wait until he gets dark, and then they throw all their gear behind a bush, and they set up a tent, and they get up a four day light, and pack everything up and leave.
5:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they're trespassing, because there are no public lands, we're very few, it's difficult, right?
5:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And it might be called Crownland or something like that, and I'm not an expert on any of that, but it's just a sharp contrast to where I live.
5:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I live in the Accounting Colorado where only 10% of the land is privately held.
5:22
[SPEAKER_01]: 90% give or take is public lands.
5:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And it happens to be one of the biggest counties in Colorado.
5:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the third largest.
5:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And that means that 90% of millions of acres, you know, we're talking about just open access for the most part for people to go in counter nature in a variety of different ways.
5:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's such a valuable asset and it's one of the reasons why I call where we live home.
5:51
[SPEAKER_01]: because it's here.
5:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And we could take that for granted so easily.
5:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that we would be mistaken to do so.
6:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So you built a career out of taking people into these lands.
6:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
6:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's a, will you just kind of give your overall feeling about the value of what we have in America?
6:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure, I'll try and do a justice.
6:19
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you put it extremely well that it's really rare in the world to have such a system to where there's land that is owned by the people and it's for the people.
6:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
6:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to start out kind of the same way that you did and fold the disclosure.
6:38
[SPEAKER_03]: There are people out there that are much smarter on this topic than me.
6:43
[SPEAKER_03]: I do not.
6:44
[SPEAKER_03]: have any desire to get into politics, that is why I'm a guide.
6:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Unfortunately, with that in accessing public lands, there is a political aspect to it.
7:00
[SPEAKER_03]: It seems like, but to try and sum up public lands in the importance, they are so incredibly crucial, I think, for
7:14
[SPEAKER_03]: you know for for so many people public lands or the wilderness areas seems like it's so far away and for a lot of us you know that yourself included it's it's virtually our doorstep and we can take that for granted for sure.
7:30
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that meeting those people that don't traditionally have this sort of system or have access to this they see the value in it so much
7:41
[SPEAKER_03]: just because it's not something that they have.
7:44
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that there is, it's multi-faceted in the value of it.
7:48
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can look at it from a mental health perspective.
7:51
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you're stressed, go take a hike.
7:54
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a great stress reliever.
7:56
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you do if there's nowhere to hike, because it's all privatized?
8:00
[SPEAKER_03]: That would be really unfortunate.
8:02
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, if you want to go fish, look at, look at,
8:09
[SPEAKER_03]: want to go climb a mountain or go mountain biking, there's so many different aspects to it and so many different uses for it.
8:17
[SPEAKER_03]: That's part of the beauty of it.
8:20
[SPEAKER_03]: I think from me as an outsider or as a guide perspective, having those public lands available to us and having such a huge diversity of public lands is what allows our business honestly the function.
8:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So we just took a break because we had a internet connection glitch.
8:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And so now we're back and Caleb was in the middle of talking about the value of public lands and we had to fight the computers for long enough that we don't know exactly where he was, but anyway, Caleb continued on with that theme.
8:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You were talking about how important public lands are and what a valuable treasure they are for all of us.
9:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'll start out by saying, you know, having a computer for all of them, because I don't think that's still like a computer to go take a hike.
9:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I definitely could definitely use a little bit of public lands right now, if you know.
9:17
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I think, I think that the value of public lands is in a nutshell far beyond what most people are aware because we have them.
9:34
[SPEAKER_03]: to really bring about the value that they have to us, you know, you're talking about people that you've interviewed that, you know, having to, like, pirate campus sense because they don't have that.
9:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that, you know, we're really fortunate in the way that we have these.
9:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's, you know, quite literally, as soon as we're done with this interview, I could go hop on public plans pretty soon.
10:00
[SPEAKER_03]: As you mentioned, you know, you have them
10:04
[SPEAKER_03]: When we have those things, I don't think that we always see the value in them, but, you know, how many people listening to this podcast or listening online can look back at a time where maybe they were stressed or they just need to get away and they utilize public lands.
10:19
[SPEAKER_03]: In some way, whether that's to go fishing, mountain biking, hiking, go camping, backpacking, there's just only different ways that we are able to utilize them.
10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
10:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that because we have them, we don't always see the value in them.
10:39
[SPEAKER_03]: I think they're crucial for people who are mental health.
10:43
[SPEAKER_03]: For honestly society, they really function in a civilized way.
10:48
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that it is an easiest state for people and beyond that, in my profession, it also allows people to make a livelihood out of those lands that I couldn't
11:03
[SPEAKER_03]: own all that way in order, what I want to, you know, beyond that, I think that it's really special in a number of ways that, you know, I'm sure we'll get into this conversation, but just for future generations for just really for people emotionally, mentally, in border line, like I think, medically, to be able to get out there and explore them and have those available to them.
11:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we've had a, there are always discussions about land use and caring for the environment and all of that sort of thing and I'm not saying that the listeners need to agree with me on this, but I want to express my opinion on this because it matters to me and it's something for people to consider, I'm not, I'm not saying to agree with me, I'm saying consider this perspective.
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people believe that humans are the problem that we're like parasites on the planet and we're destroying it.
12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that next step of that is, well, the humans are the problem if we can keep humans out away from the natural areas that we have, then the planet can heal and humans, you know, the problems eliminated because humans are forced out of nature.
12:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that doesn't work long-term.
12:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason is because we're a part of nature, and it's our job to be stewards and caretakers of nature, and we can do that, but only if we know nature as a friend, maybe even as a nurturing mother.
12:37
[SPEAKER_01]: If we don't understand nature because we've never interacted with nature, then we have no context for what should be done or how to vote or what to care about or where to place resources to take care of the natural environments that we celebrate.
12:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am a super strong proponent.
12:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, I say it every day, get out there and have some fun.
12:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a super strong proponent of people interacting with nature and of educating people so they can do it in a way that preserves nature.
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a baseline philosophy there and that philosophy is, you're not going to take care of what you don't know and love.
13:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And so access to these public lands is uber critical.
13:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had a few instances in Colorado where there have been some interesting land use challenges.
13:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say one is that we have a Forteiner in Colorado that's privately owned.
13:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I was purchased to become some sort of a hunting preserve or something from a foreigner from another nation.
13:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And suddenly one of the Forteiner's that everyone wanted to climb was no longer available to be climbed.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: and uh... people get ticket if they try they didn't negotiate an opening that i think once a year when you can go up with a certain organization to try to sum it this fourteen or it cost money and it's you know it's it's all the things but it was just a wake up call that for people that love to go out and climb mountains for people that love to be in nature and have enjoyed the freedom to do so to have one of those mountains taken away it's like what
14:13
[SPEAKER_01]: They can do that.
14:15
[SPEAKER_01]: A mountain is too big.
14:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you compare the mountain to the human lifespan, the mountain mine is well-being eternal.
14:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're a speckin' time in the life of a mountain.
14:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, how could, like the Native Americans used to say, you know, how can a human own the earth?
14:34
[SPEAKER_01]: How can you own the land?
14:36
[SPEAKER_01]: right, but we do and I understand property ownership and I'm not against it, but it really struck home when this mountain suddenly was no longer available.
14:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So Caleb, you've had some experiences that were kind of wake up calls like that in your neck of the woods in Oregon, too.
14:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's touch on some of those.
14:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I want to I want to backtrack briefly to something that you mentioned and it actually will for those that didn't listen to the previous episode I was on.
15:05
[SPEAKER_03]: the discussion that we had about finding your wife and that your wife can evolve over time.
15:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I tell my guests all the time on the mountain, you know, that, you know, well essentially my wife is two protect these areas, but not necessarily I could tie yourself up around a tree and
15:30
[SPEAKER_03]: It's to bring awareness about these places and I am a huge advocate that people can't get to these places and they won't bother them.
15:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that, you know, I mentioned that I have a young daughter and that is my wife.
15:42
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I grew up pretty fortunate being able to travel around and my Clayton National Park is one of my very favorite places in the world for those of you that have not been there.
15:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I highly recommend going there.
15:58
[SPEAKER_03]: If you've never been on the going to the Sun Road, go there.
16:02
[SPEAKER_03]: It is beautiful and terrifying at the same time.
16:06
[SPEAKER_03]: But for me, that place is one of those places without going deep down into the political sphere, it's changing.
16:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I think most people that go outside can say, whether the time of year that we see rain or snow that that is changing,
16:24
[SPEAKER_03]: I just want people to have access to these areas so they can see them because I'm a true believer that if they can't see them they won't value them and they won't want to protect the right future and my daughter won't have the opportunity to experience them when she's my age or older.
16:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that I wanted to bring that back as far as finding your wife because this is very very important to me because it is my wife but it's not
16:50
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not, as you said, like just that one side of it.
16:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that humans are a part of nature.
16:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that we can live with it and that we can be a part of it, but it's also a responsibility to protect it and use it wisely, in Oregon to come back to your question.
17:09
[SPEAKER_03]: In Oregon, there's a lot of challenges.
17:12
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a ton of public land, which is amazing.
17:15
[SPEAKER_03]: We have amazing national parks, great state parks,
17:20
[SPEAKER_03]: in Oregon there, I've been a part of kind of, I discussed on a panel for the, the Oregon legislators about a bill that was trying to go through and it goes back to 2014 issue where there was a pretty tragic accident at a ski area and someone was severely injured.
17:41
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think I think a good meeting or a good meeting judgment that came out of that ended up going to
17:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And essentially what it was, is that liability waivers were found at that, or the way that that one was worded was, quote, unconscionable, and it didn't clearly describe the risks.
18:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And here we are, you know, 11 years later, dealing with a situation where, quite honestly, there's one last insurance company in the state of Oregon,
18:15
[SPEAKER_03]: for skierias and they have openly said that they don't know whether Dali will stay beyond this year.
18:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, so we're facing a very real situation where there could be 27 skierias across the state.
18:29
[SPEAKER_03]: They just either don't open or don't open beyond this year and, you know, you want to talk about access.
18:36
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that's not necessarily all public lands, but a lot of the skierias in the state
18:44
[SPEAKER_03]: to have insurance to operate.
18:46
[SPEAKER_03]: What better way to take a generation of skiers out than not letting them ski in, you know, not seeing the value in a ski area or not having access?
18:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I know there was one ski area that had mountain bike area that they dealt with an issue.
19:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, it was an injury in that one to corp but they haven't opened mountain biking again since that just because of the liability side of it.
19:14
[SPEAKER_03]: tears on the political and access side, but I think that it also highlights, we have to do this responsibly and going outside is not without risk, but it's also a huge rewards to it.
19:30
[SPEAKER_03]: And if we only look at it on that legal side, then we take access away potentially anyways.
19:43
[SPEAKER_03]: specific bill affected.
19:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Outfitters and guides, rock jams, all kinds of things.
19:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean we could see a huge amount of people that just either A don't go outside and then what happens to these amazing public lands that we have.
19:57
[SPEAKER_03]: If no one goes to them, do they value them?
19:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Do they want to correct them?
20:01
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what?
20:02
[SPEAKER_03]: An example that I use when I'm guiding on chastro for instance because it's a pretty amazing mountain just for water and everything else.
20:12
[SPEAKER_03]: a great peak, but I use it on rainier as well, you know, if they were to find a fortune of gold inside of that mountain, do you think that someone would want to tear down that mountain to get to it and who would protect the mountain for it?
20:27
[SPEAKER_03]: If no one goes there to experience it and to see value at it, who's going to be there to protect?
20:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
20:35
[SPEAKER_03]: And so my fear right now in Oregon is who's going to be there to protect these
20:41
[SPEAKER_03]: If there's minerals on them, if there are things that are a value beyond just a recreational side, and if people aren't going to them or works yet, if people do go out there and don't have the experience or the education or the knowledge on how to manage those lands or travel through those lands responsibly, do they unintentionally like start to suffer?
21:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, do we see a huge influx in search and rescue missions because people are being injured and there's, you know, people out there that just aren't aware of the risks or how to deal with certain risks or, you know, if they get injured or they capable of getting themselves out.
21:28
[SPEAKER_03]: That goes down that deep route of the whole, but I think it's also part of the responsibility of having public lands and having this amazing access that we do in protecting it and doing that responsibly.
21:40
[SPEAKER_03]: So I know that was a bit of a long ramble and a tangent thrown in a few ways, but I think it goes to show some of the complexity about the access and some of the challenges that we currently have for it as a ball.
21:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Caleb, you're talking about the complexities and that we want to both take care of it and keep it accessible, right?
22:02
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to protect it without barring people from enjoying the wonderful benefits of it.
22:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to illustrate this with a short visit into psychology.
22:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason is because I think it might hit home for some people, okay?
22:21
[SPEAKER_01]: A defense mechanism is when you, essentially, when you light yourself or make up some sort of a story to protect yourself from a perceived emotional threat or physical threat or whatever it is, we have all sorts of defense mechanisms and I'm not a psychologist, but I have studied this.
22:36
[SPEAKER_01]: One obvious defense mechanism that most people use, and I use a lot, is we repress or suppress emotion when it's just too much to handle.
22:47
[SPEAKER_01]: We stuff it, and then it comes out later, right?
22:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the defense mechanism.
22:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That's going to what I'm talking about.
22:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's one called splitting, and what's fascinating about splitting is that it is a developmental phase that all humans go through as children.
23:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But as adults, when we lean into it, it's a defense mechanism that's very unhealthy.
23:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And splitting is when you encounter a situation, a person, a concept, and in your mind, it's either all good or all bad.
23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And the defense mechanism is, if someone hurts me, they were my best friend, but now they're all bad.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: They're a horrible, ugly, terrible person because they hurt me once, and they're all bad.
23:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've all seen the kids on the elementary school playground go through this, right?
23:35
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem is when we carry that into adulthood, and we live in a world that's binary, everything is either all good or all bad, then we start making some very bad decisions.
23:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have seen this in conversations regarding caring for the environment and conservation.
23:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a very complex issue.
23:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not all good or all bad.
23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's a mixture of how can we do what we do better?
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: How can we improve on what we're doing?
24:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a matter of, people should be kept out or all mining is bad or all industry is bad.
24:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more a matter of,
24:11
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have to be responsible adults, roll up our sleeves and get into the nitty-gritty to figure out the best approach, best practices that serve all the various concerns and interests in a way that cares for nature and humanity, and that's not easy to do, right?
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So the reason I bring up splitting is because it's very easy to flippantly just categorize somebody or some organization or some industry or some perspective is all bad, but that doesn't help us usually.
24:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And
24:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so much more valuable, I think, to engage in the conversation and to learn and to grow and to share perspective so that people can come up with best practices that can lead to the next step of even better practices, right?
25:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's
25:02
[SPEAKER_01]: for what that's worth.
25:03
[SPEAKER_01]: People don't have to agree with me on that, but that is my perspective.
25:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So in this situation in Oregon, I can't imagine what the impact would be if all the ski resorts suddenly were like, we're gone, that's it.
25:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it is a really, really big deal that's been coming down for a long time.
25:26
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's been a number of efforts to
25:30
[SPEAKER_03]: get Oregon in line, and this bill that went through, if anyone wants to look it up, the most recent one was House Bill 3140, and it not show what it was going to do.
25:41
[SPEAKER_03]: It was going to align Oregon with Idaho, Washington, and California for their liability, releases, and being able to do that and how old they were enforceable.
25:51
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it, it, I think, without
25:55
[SPEAKER_03]: some sort of reform and I'm not looking in nor were the people that actually were trying to advance this bill.
26:01
[SPEAKER_03]: They weren't looking for all liability to be released.
26:05
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean if I don't do my due diligence as a guide, you know if I take a break in a known rock foloria and we hit by a rock could I have known that there was going to be a rock at that
26:21
[SPEAKER_03]: If I have you sit down as a rock, it's falling, that's very different, right?
26:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it shouldn't be released from that.
26:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, if I put you in a position of harm purposefully, and there's a lot more to it.
26:35
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think, you know, if I slip and I fall as I'm skiing on snow, you know, that's part of it, right?
26:51
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't want to say the word safe, like deemed manageable by ski patrol.
26:57
[SPEAKER_03]: There is still pressure.
26:59
[SPEAKER_03]: It's acceptable that I'm on a slope with snow.
27:03
[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be slippery.
27:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise, I wouldn't be skiing.
27:07
[SPEAKER_03]: There might be ice.
27:08
[SPEAKER_03]: There might be variable snow conditions.
27:10
[SPEAKER_03]: That is not the responsibility of the ski resort to make sure that every inch of every run is perfect.
27:18
[SPEAKER_03]: It is my responsibility as a user to make sure that I am keeping myself within control.
27:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Right now, in Oregon, that line is very, very blurry.
27:30
[SPEAKER_03]: And it scares a lot of skieras.
27:33
[SPEAKER_03]: In the past, the big concern was that insurance costs were going out for them, which, most of the skieras in the state Oregon aren't really huge.
27:42
[SPEAKER_03]: I can tell you that the one that's about 45 minutes away from me, it's pretty small.
27:47
[SPEAKER_03]: and it's community owned.
27:49
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not like we're dealing with huge, huge companies.
27:53
[SPEAKER_03]: But when just this local period that I've kind of worked with in the past, I want to say that they're insurance.
27:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the last numbers I saw had gone up 129% in the last few years.
28:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, what about lipstick prices for people?
28:10
[SPEAKER_03]: What point does that then also come into access?
28:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, the scariest can be opened, but our tickets are $700 for a day.
28:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Now we're reducing access for certain people as well.
28:24
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't afford that sort of price for a lift ticket.
28:26
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's really, it's difficult.
28:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that someone a lot smarter than me.
28:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I hope is at the helm for that and trying to figure that out.
28:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I don't have the answer, but what I do know is that if
28:44
[SPEAKER_03]: I think is a civilization, communities will suffer, towns will suffer, states will suffer, but people will as well.
28:52
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, if we're not using those areas, what value is there in keeping them, and that's my long-term fear.
29:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just in way of having a conversation about this, there are some mountains in the Song of the Christos, some forteners that are dangerous.
29:09
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not the hike up, you know,
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: they are the climb through the rockfall area and the weather and people climbers above you and and uh... the amount of exposure involved i mean these are the real deal and people get hurt people get hurt up there frequently in any any given summer there's going to be search and rescue up there so some people in the local community have said let's close the mountains because people are getting hurt and i say whoa wait a minute
29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: people are taking a known risk, and it's their job to be safe, and it is a risky place to climb, and you'd really need to be able to be self-reliant, and understand the risk, and manage it as well as you can, right, with proper safety gear, and wise choices, and techniques, and all that sort of thing.
30:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But do we want to close the
30:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like saying, well, people get struck by lightning on these fort tenors.
30:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we should ban 14er climbing because lightning storms are a danger.
30:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean at what point do we say wait a minute that's an individual's responsibility to interact with nature who has always been.
30:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Always been dangerous.
30:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's no way to get around it.
30:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm when you're interacting with nature.
30:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be a warm hug or an amazing threat, right?
30:45
[SPEAKER_01]: is to experience the joy, the thrill, the challenge, the wisdom growing, the knowledge growing, the abilities, the talents, the skills, all the things that come from interacting in an environment where there are unknowns, where there are going to be things that happen that we can't predict.
31:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And so obviously, my philosophy on life is to be safe and have fun.
31:15
[SPEAKER_03]: don't close it don't stop doing it because it's just that the benefits outweigh the risks is too valuable it is yeah and i think you know for listeners all all play the other side that as well and just to show that you and i are we're coming from the same place and that we don't we don't think that either side to the extreme no there's somewhere in the middle
31:40
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, for that, that example where they were going to just close the 14er and because people were getting hurt, you know, well, you could allocate that you should allow every guy in the company that there is to go out there and take as many people as possible.
31:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
31:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I don't think that's the answer either, because then it's, then you end up with a ton of people out there and, you know, for, for better or worse, maybe people are traveling
32:10
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you're increasing the number of people, they're tenfold, that's not good either.
32:14
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think protecting those areas is good, but not restricting those areas.
32:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's a really cautious and kind of a careful line to where do we do?
32:26
[SPEAKER_03]: If there's risk, do we just close it down?
32:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, no, we could argue that for the roads, there's traffic accidents.
32:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So we might as well just stop people from being able to drive no vehicles on the road.
32:38
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not a realistic thing either, but do we just put 30 lanes on a highway because there's like more traffic accidents on this one lane in this road?
32:49
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not great either because now you've just increased a ton of people on that road potentially.
32:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that the key is looking at it and again, I think there's someone in the waste marker than me.
33:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I hope they're listening to this and that they spearhead this, trying to figure out
33:07
[SPEAKER_03]: are really, really special and crucial to a number of people for a number of reasons.
33:13
[SPEAKER_03]: There are risks in that, but those risks don't outweigh the value that people get as a civilization or a society for having access to those.
33:25
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think, you know, maybe this is something only someone that's, you know, sad on top of a mountain can really understand, but there's something really special about whether
33:38
[SPEAKER_03]: where you're part of the natural environment.
33:41
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not outside of it viewing it from your house, but you're in it.
33:45
[SPEAKER_03]: You can smell it, you can feel the wind, you can hear the noise, it's something really, really special.
33:53
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's something that people, I don't think will understand and less they experience it.
34:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And not everyone ever will be able to, but they should all have the access.
34:06
[SPEAKER_03]: to be able to do that, and if they don't, it's just really concerning for the future and what does that mean, you know, because it's, in my experience from what I've seen is, okay, well, once this little bit goes away, it doesn't ever come back, and that's a very fine line, and that's not to say that nothing should ever be restricted or protected, but I certainly think that both sides need to have a voice in that, you know, kind of
34:35
[SPEAKER_03]: to my Y, which will segue straight into this.
34:39
[SPEAKER_03]: I tell people not to chain themselves up in front of a tree, but most people in my life, most people that I've met or were spoken with or climbed with, there's some more special to them in the planet.
34:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And those places that are special are generally outdoors.
34:55
[SPEAKER_03]: That might be a park down the street from where they grew up.
34:58
[SPEAKER_03]: That might be a field that might be a mountain, or whatever.
35:01
[SPEAKER_03]: My advice to them is pay attention to what's happening to that.
35:05
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, that parked down the street is going to be paved over to make it a parking lot.
35:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And you would agree with that, okay.
35:14
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you don't say something, because that place doesn't have its own voice.
35:18
[SPEAKER_03]: And if somebody doesn't say something, it's less likely that anyone else will.
35:23
[SPEAKER_03]: But the more people that speak up about it, the more empowered we make that area, or the more relevant we make that area.
35:35
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a, if it's a 14 or it's privatized and people are getting excited and you don't agree with that, don't change yourself up somewhere and try to obstruct in any way, but go to them and talk to people about that.
35:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Make it a subject so that more people have the right and the power to talk about it.
35:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And maybe we don't protect every place and I don't suspect that we will.
36:04
[SPEAKER_03]: but maybe we protect a few really important places.
36:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I think that's a long term.
36:10
[SPEAKER_03]: I think solution is just talking about it.
36:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And having those conversations rather than one voice on one side only, I think that open dialect is crucial and looking at it from both sides.
36:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
36:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And if people don't go out and experience it, they don't even know.
36:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's a very small example, not a big deal, but it stood out in my mind.
36:33
[SPEAKER_01]: One fall I went on a motorcycle ride in the BLM land and it was in an area where they're quite a few BLM roads and it's a lovely place to ride and then the next spring late spring when the roads open back up again
36:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I went to the same place, and the road was closed, permanently, sign across it, no road.
36:55
[SPEAKER_01]: There are other roads, and I thought, okay, this is not necessarily out of balance.
36:59
[SPEAKER_01]: They probably had some really good reason for closing this road, although I don't know what it might be.
37:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was shocked, I was like, that was a really good ride, it's gone, and that road is going to continue to sit there in nature for thousands of years.
37:14
[SPEAKER_01]: because we have an environment that's slow to rebound from that type of soil compression and that sort of thing and I was like, well
37:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure we need to open new roads, but I get a little concerned when existing roads go away because that's part of our access.
37:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not criticizing the people that are trying to manage the land, the resources they have a very important job to do.
37:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not criticizing their decisions at this point.
37:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying that personally I was impacted.
37:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
37:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I used it.
37:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I was out there.
37:51
[SPEAKER_01]: because I was a part of it, it was a part of what I enjoyed.
37:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, had I never written there, I would never know that a road was closed, that access was lost and that, you know, some of the beautiful views and experiences that were down that road were no longer available.
38:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying it was a good thing or a bad thing to close the road, but if you're out in nature, and you're impacted by these things, then you care.
38:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe that's what I'm trying to get at.
38:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We care, right?
38:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's really what we're kind of talking about is that these things do matter.
38:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You know?
38:25
[SPEAKER_02]: They do.
38:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
38:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
38:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Usually, you know that, as you say that road, you know,
38:31
[SPEAKER_03]: for all we know there could have been a very rare species of flower that that was the last place on the planet.
38:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
38:37
[SPEAKER_03]: That was growing.
38:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
38:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Protect it.
38:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to be the person responsible for killing off the species.
38:44
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
38:45
[SPEAKER_03]: But you have to know that road or you have to know those areas to think, oh, yeah, that's important.
38:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
38:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I agree with that.
38:54
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, people listening, I don't know what road you're talking about.
38:59
[SPEAKER_03]: people listening on either, but I guarantee if you said the road number of people would be like, yeah, okay.
39:04
[SPEAKER_03]: But maybe there's maybe there's a handful of people that have been on that, right?
39:09
[SPEAKER_03]: And that spent time there as a kid or have a lot of family memories there.
39:14
[SPEAKER_03]: It's important to them.
39:16
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, because now they can't get there.
39:18
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's what we're talking about, is experience it and in that creates a value.
39:23
[SPEAKER_01]: yeah certainly it does there's the economic side to this which you alluded to a little bit but i think that we need to bring it into the conversation because it's very real um... the national lands that the the national forest charter was not set up originally to protect the lands from the humans
39:45
[SPEAKER_01]: the charter was set up to manage the resources for the humans and it's kind of interesting when you look at it historically and I'm no expert on it, but there is a economic value to public lands beyond just recreation and that's where it gets really dicey.
40:03
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the conversation no one wants to have, right?
40:07
[SPEAKER_01]: This is painful stuff, but there are also economic impacts when access is lost.
40:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned Caleb, the city of Mount Chasta.
40:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Mount Chasta, just to paint the picture for people that haven't been there, it's a perfectly quirky mountain town that has amazing personality, great food, the people that are fantastic.
40:33
[SPEAKER_03]: People don't generally move there because big business and industry is thriving.
40:39
[SPEAKER_03]: They move there because it sits at the base of a 14,000-foot volcano.
40:44
[SPEAKER_03]: There's tons of mountain lakes, there's amazing mountain biking.
40:47
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a scary area right there.
40:48
[SPEAKER_03]: It is an outdoorsman's dream.
40:53
[SPEAKER_03]: It is a really, really special place.
40:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to, like, before I really describe the problem,
41:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not blaming, I'm not trying to go against officials that are in charge in any way on this.
41:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm coming from a place of concern for this town and really wanting the best for the area.
41:19
[SPEAKER_03]: I want people to have a good life and I want people to have access to those areas that brought them there originally.
41:28
[SPEAKER_03]: a little bit of the struggle, this started for me where I really started to pay attention to it about five years ago when some changes had come in place, but just how they were managing roads in the area.
41:41
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a great, amazing storm cycle, tons of power up on a mountain, like backcountry touring was fantastic, the ski area was just rocking, it was doing great, there's a couple
41:55
[SPEAKER_03]: There is one that I frequent in the winter time just because it's like they always have seeing a front and it's like the people that are fantastic and I walked in on a Friday night and I had five servers to myself and I was the only around that restaurant at six o'clock yeah and we're talking about just an amazing storm cycle that town should have been thriving in the conversation that I had those people it was heartbreaking
42:23
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, they had directly seen and connected the dots.
42:27
[SPEAKER_03]: When what's known as the Everett Memorial Highway, which goes up to the bunny-flot trailhead, it's the only cloud road on the mount itself runs up to about 7,000 feet out of town.
42:39
[SPEAKER_03]: It is how you will access the mount and then when you're trying to really tour unless you have a snowmobile and are able to snowmobile up the road.
42:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Or up the trail, see get there and then you can skin in from there.
42:51
[SPEAKER_03]: They directly connected the dots that when that road was closed, that their business plummeted.
42:56
[SPEAKER_03]: And I started to ask around, I started to check in at hotels, hotels were empty.
43:02
[SPEAKER_03]: The ski area was doing well, but they were just south of town.
43:05
[SPEAKER_03]: They're actually closer to another little town, but they were doing well.
43:10
[SPEAKER_03]: But the people that would come to the area to tour, which would go up on the mountain wall, so the ones that were buying gas, buying groceries,
43:21
[SPEAKER_03]: going to bars, you know, really spending a fortune in town.
43:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And economically, those people are a pretty substantial driver of that town's economy.
43:33
[SPEAKER_03]: In the last few years, what's happened is, for various reasons, again, not going political, but it's just a problem that, you know, we're trying to work through and, you know, I've been a part of kind of connecting with a nonprofit that's doing a fantastic job and we're
43:52
[SPEAKER_03]: is how do we keep this road open in the winter?
43:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Because what they've been doing in the past is anytime a storm is coming through, they just close to the gate.
44:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And then what happens is that's one of the few, kind of mountain roads, if you will, it doesn't go anywhere other than a parking lot.
44:09
[SPEAKER_03]: So it doesn't connect towns.
44:11
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no, there's nothing on the other side, essentially it's just to a parking lot.
44:16
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously people in town, their roads are more important.
44:21
[SPEAKER_03]: But when you have a road like that that is closed for three weeks or four weeks, and then for those people that know, you know, some of the settleds and it doesn't get softer than the settleds, and then they blow up blowers or they can't plow it, and you lose a majority of your species where that town is making most of his money, you know, some are in winter.
44:44
[SPEAKER_03]: That's where that town makes, if money and that's where businesses do well.
44:52
[SPEAKER_03]: things start closing, people have a harder time, and then, you know, it again going back to that access, who is going to go there, they can't get to the mountain.
45:03
[SPEAKER_03]: So it just is like this ripple effect, and in a long-term solution, you know, I think is getting that road open, but that sounds super simple.
45:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I know there's a lot of moving pieces.
45:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I
45:19
[SPEAKER_03]: to that, as far as what it takes to open that road.
45:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And I want to be super clear, this is not in any way bad towards the people working driving the plow or the blower.
45:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Those guys are amazing.
45:34
[SPEAKER_03]: They will work their butts off and they're happy to do it.
45:37
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that there's challenges that I'm not aware of at this point that are going into that, but it is a problem that I think this community
45:48
[SPEAKER_03]: struggling with right now and hopefully this one will do well but yeah you know if you look back it like even the 60s when when they were having tons more snow the road was open I don't know what exactly the the reasoning is like there's a lot of challenges financially or everything else that might go into that but you know if it's it's not a priority then it's
46:17
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, suddenly it's even that important to have that road open 10 years from now.
46:22
[SPEAKER_03]: That's, that's a fear.
46:24
[SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, if you're, if you're going through or if you live in the county, please be a part of what we're trying to do to help that road stay open.
46:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So that the economy there can do really well because it's, it's a lifeblooded community.
46:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Caleb, I want to share a story that's kind of the opposite of that one.
46:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it illustrates a point.
46:47
[SPEAKER_01]: If people are aware of what's going on and you do have a voice in the United States, you know, you can go to meetings.
46:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You can say say the things you can talk to people.
46:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You can vote.
46:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You can talk to your representatives.
47:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So Colorado passed a law.
47:04
[SPEAKER_01]: a few decades ago, a couple decades ago, allowing old mountain towns to do gambling, and the reason was they said it was, it was an alignment with the history of these old mining towns and the mountains in Colorado, and so, a gambling industry was born overnight.
47:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are two cities, towns, tiny towns, that were near Denver, so a big population center, right?
47:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And they
47:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And Blackhawk is where you enter a side canyon to drive up to Central City.
47:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And the two towns overlap to the point that you can't tell where one begins and one ends.
47:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But the problem was that the casinos in blackhawk were getting more traffic than the casinos in Central City because they had the entrance.
47:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was so bewildering to me.
47:55
[SPEAKER_01]: People that knew people and had a voice and used it got a highway a road approved from
48:06
[SPEAKER_01]: high mountain drive to drop into central city directly instead of having to go through black hawk which was literally touching central city they're at the same location okay so this was a four lane road built from i7 you to central city it's many miles long it still takes more time to get to central city if you take the new road than if you go through black hawk it's less convenient but it created a way that people could land in central city
48:36
[SPEAKER_01]: instead of landing in black hot.
48:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how much the road cost.
48:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I do know that roads like that are many, many, many, many millions of dollars a mile and this road is probably 20 miles long.
48:49
[SPEAKER_01]: and it was all because the political sway of the casinos in central city.
48:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So they built a new road that almost no one uses and wasn't needed and is the longer way to the destination.
49:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't see the point of the road although I enjoy driving it.
49:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a fun, a fun drive.
49:07
[SPEAKER_01]: The point I'm trying to make is your voice matters.
49:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you can make a difference if the casino owners in central city can get
49:18
[SPEAKER_01]: probably a half billion dollar road built, then I do not know how much that road was.
49:23
[SPEAKER_01]: But then maybe your voice can make a difference by saying, you know, this road matters to our local economy and we should keep it open or this area is getting abused and we should educate people on how to care for it.
49:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mentioned that on purpose, Caleb, because I know that as a guide,
49:41
[SPEAKER_01]: you believe in educating people how to be safe in nature and how to care with care for nature and interact with nature in a way that is a winland for everybody.
49:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Education in my mind is one of the solutions.
49:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not keep people out.
49:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's teach people how to go in in the right way.
49:59
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you value education when it comes to this?
50:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think education is crucial.
50:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Beyond any sort of medical, I mean,
50:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm an advocate, but people who go outside should have some medical training.
50:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I will use my medical training, whether I'm in the city or out in the outdoors.
50:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's that, if people go outside, have some basic wilderness for a state.
50:24
[SPEAKER_03]: You never know, you might use it in the restaurant.
50:27
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a value to humanity right there.
50:29
[SPEAKER_03]: But as a occasion in the outdoors, my company, we close every year and we get a trash
50:41
[SPEAKER_03]: part of the busiest time of the season.
50:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And the reason for that is because like we wanted the author when there's other people there, because we view that as educating us, is normally if we're picking up trash, some process what we're doing, and we explain to them.
50:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's pretty awesome.
51:00
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a firm believer that people in my profession
51:10
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, throw out a napple core.
51:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Most everybody should know it's not okay to drop plastic bags in the outdoor and just leave them there.
51:16
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's easy to look at people and I said on the last episode, you know, words are important to me in that.
51:24
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the reasons for that is that I truly think that people are ignorant in that way and not, not like,
51:37
[SPEAKER_03]: know if you have somebody that comes from the interest in the Chicago and goes into the wilderness did they know everything about it?
51:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Well now if we can teach them that also drives out values of oh well I don't want to drop that orange peel or banana peel because of x, y, and you know if I see this I want to then educate somebody else on that too or make other people
52:06
[SPEAKER_03]: making sure that we are educating everybody that we can.
52:11
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a guy that I'm there for my task, but I spend moments that I ask people that aren't guided, if it looks like they're about ready to do something that they really shouldn't.
52:20
[SPEAKER_03]: So like, hey, you can't if I give you some unsolicited advice or a little bit of input there.
52:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just to try and help other people to say, but also to help parents that area.
52:30
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, if
52:32
[SPEAKER_03]: If we see somebody wandering off trail and tracing through a metal wildflowers, maybe we can stop them.
52:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe we can educate them on why they shouldn't do that.
52:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not my job to be a police officer there and really try and force that.
52:50
[SPEAKER_03]: But try and help people be aware of the things that they might not be aware of.
52:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And then that will help protect those areas in the future.
53:01
[SPEAKER_03]: You're one bit of advice to them or you're one little bit of education to them, you know, it could have ripples, it really could change stuff down the road and definitely protect areas or keep access to them open, you know, if problems, you know, are occurring in your little piece of advice, maybe helps prevent some of those from continuing to occur.
53:24
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, who knows what the change is going to be?
53:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're probably going to have to wrap this up.
53:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to share one anecdote from one of Tom Brown's books.
53:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's been a lot of debate over the years.
53:36
[SPEAKER_01]: We weather Tom Brown.
53:37
[SPEAKER_01]: How much exaggeration he put into his books?
53:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But they're a beautiful read.
53:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you haven't read any of them, they're amazing about ways to interact with nature.
53:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But the anecdote I wanted to share was that
53:50
[SPEAKER_01]: He came across a fellow that had driven into the woods and he was changing the oil in his car and draining it out into the road in the ditch and just leaving the oil there.
54:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of yelling at him or trying to get him to stop or being confrontational, he just visited with the guy for a little while and then he took him slightly down the hill to a pond.
54:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, have you ever tried fishing here, you like to fish?
54:15
[SPEAKER_01]: and the guy started catching fish and it was just overjoyed and then Tom looked at him and said well you better catch him all because they're going to be dead soon and the guy says what do you mean what's going to kill these fish and he says well the oil that you left out on the road up there is going to kill these fish and so the man ran back to his car and got a shovel and started shoveling the oil he dirt into the back of his truck i mean
54:39
[SPEAKER_01]: that's it's it's a way to educate people not to condemn them but just it's a way of saying we have a shared resource that we both care about and this is a better way to care for it.
54:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know maybe a story will will help someone's way of thinking.
54:57
[SPEAKER_01]: but how would you do that Caleb you you have more experience than I do if you see someone that's doing something that's could leave leave some harm in the environment how do you approach him in a way that is uh positive yeah if i i totally agree that coming to somebody aggressively and
55:19
[SPEAKER_03]: in a confrontational way does not work.
55:22
[SPEAKER_03]: People get their cat was pretty quick and they get really defensive and most people kind of dig in even if they know they're wrong at that point.
55:30
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's the first thing I do is I try to always put myself in their position and it kind of goes back to our early part of this discussion and looking at both sides.
55:41
[SPEAKER_03]: So why would someone be thinking that this is okay?
55:46
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of diffuses myself because typically I'm like oh don't do that and I want to really be calm so it's like well why would they, why would they think that this is okay and then come to them in a position of you know hey you know don't you love this clean air and it's like pretty amazing place to be and I love being out in the wild and being able to
56:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's great, you know, just like something like that and then just remind them, yeah, we're pretty fortunate that fire season's not really bad right now.
56:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I sure hope that cigarette both that year is a cigarette but that you threw down doesn't change that.
56:30
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's that's even a little bit aggressive, you know, but just trying to come to it in a way like find something calm ground that you both can value and whether it's clean air or, you know,
56:44
[SPEAKER_03]: know that you're you're melting for water or fish that you're fishing for.
56:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And then like casually point out what could change that.
56:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know maybe that's what they had done.
56:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's just something totally different about like yeah I hope nothing sparks a fire soon.
57:02
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been really bad the last couple of years.
57:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And then maybe that time to see you know
57:14
[SPEAKER_03]: a little bit different with I'm if I'm with gas versus if I'm with people that aren't you know essentially paying for that service I with my gas I can be like I can really educate them with people that aren't with me they might not want to hear anything I have to say and that's sometimes you don't even have the same thing you just pick it up and you just move on and if they see you do it that's kind of an un- Yeah sometimes
57:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's a tricky subject for me.
57:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, lead by example.
57:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
57:46
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a really great way to do it.
57:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And you also mentioned something else there, which is sphere of influence.
57:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, as a guide, you have a sphere of influence with the guests, the people that you're taking on these amazing adventures.
57:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh,
58:00
[SPEAKER_01]: if we try as is across just a society as a whole if we try to change things that are outside of our sphere of influence I always say it's like donkey otty tilting at windmills you know you're not you have good intentions you're not going to accomplish anything here because you don't have the sphere of influence so if you want to make a difference
58:19
[SPEAKER_01]: think about your sphere of influence and if you operate inside of it, you're going to have the biggest impact and that may be training your kids to be people that care for whatever the value is that you're worried about, right?
58:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That might be your sphere of influence.
58:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It can also be a letter to the local newspaper.
58:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It can also be a blog on the internet.
58:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be coming
58:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the venture sports podcast has a little bit larger sphere of influence because there's so many wonderful people that listen to this show to be inspired and to to celebrate what we all hold is is so cool all these adventure sports and interacting with nature and everything so that there's a little bit larger sphere of influence so come on the show you can write letters to the legislators you can vote but you can become a legislator.
59:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You can become a teacher.
59:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get involved in so many different ways and on so many different levels.
59:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would just say, I want to plant the seed.
59:21
[SPEAKER_01]: If you operate outside of your sphere of influence, you probably don't understand everything that's going on.
59:26
[SPEAKER_01]: You might just cause more harm than good.
59:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So grow your sphere of influence and operate within it and you'll be very, very effective.
59:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's the way that you can make difference.
59:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you, everyone, for listening to this.
59:43
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a different sort of podcast for the Adventure Sports podcast.
59:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's something this near and dear to my heart.
59:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And Caleb, will you give us a summary statement?
59:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Close out the show with something this near and dear to your heart.
59:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
59:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, this kind of the last few minutes popped into my head.
1:00:04
[SPEAKER_03]: pretty well in this entire show.
1:00:06
[SPEAKER_03]: If everyone's familiar with doctors' tooth in the lungs, you know, everyone needs, everyone needs, needs, but what do we do when all the truffle injuries are gone?
1:00:19
[SPEAKER_03]: So, speak for the trees, you know, and that's, I'm not discouraging people from, from using the land and again,
1:00:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Just make sure that what's happening with it you agree with.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you were an eye or on different sides of that at times, that's okay.
1:00:35
[SPEAKER_03]: But if we're both coming at it from a good point in where having opened discussion, I think that's where we start not where we end.
1:00:46
[SPEAKER_03]: It's when we close off the discussion on the other side, that's where the problems become.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, very well said.
1:00:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to talk more about this sort of stuff.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, if this touched you in a way, if you realize for the first time, maybe, or you are reminded that, wow, we do have such beautiful resources.
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Take a moment to care.
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Sort out what your sphere of influence is, and decide if it's a value that you want to put energy into or not.
1:01:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
1:01:15
[SPEAKER_01]: You have your own world and your own values and your own important things.
1:01:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But if this is something that matters to you then care, pay attention, talk to other people, and in so doing I think the world becomes a better place.
1:01:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm a guide and not a politician.
1:01:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't get into the outdoors, but people are political by any means.
1:01:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
1:01:44
[SPEAKER_03]: you could have a huge impact in what the next 100 years of the country or the planet really looks like by your single voice.
1:01:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And find your why.
1:01:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Find your why.
1:01:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome, Caleb.
1:01:54
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
1:01:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all of this.
1:01:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been a enlightening conversation for me.
1:02:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And for all the listeners and viewers out there, thank you for taking the time to listen.
1:02:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And until the next show, get out there and have some fun.
1:02:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much.