Latest / The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast / 34. Part Two: Confronting the internalised misogyny of flying monkeys...and ourselves

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34. Part Two: Confronting the internalised misogyny of flying monkeys...and ourselves · The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You thought you knew, but you didn't have a clue.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Baby, you thought you knew, but you didn't have a clue.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Baby.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Danielle Black and I'm the coach you need if you're dealing with post-separation abuse.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: I help you make sense of ongoing abusive behaviour after separation and help you take back your power and control.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Let's go.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Help you take back your power and control.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Let's go.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Hi, thanks for joining me on another episode of the Post-Separation Abuse Podcast.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: My name's Danielle Black and I'm a specialist separation, divorce and co-parenting coach for women who are navigating separation, divorce and co-parenting coach for women who are navigating separation, divorce and co-parenting from a controlling former partner.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Now on to part two of this particular topic internalized misogyny, sexism and how those things contribute to the behavior of flying monkeys, the enablers, allies and advocates of our abusers.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Most, if not all, perpetrators of family violence and post-separation abuse are misogynists, that is, they don't respect women and girls and do not believe that women and girls deserve to be treated with the same respect as men and boys.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Family violence and post-separation abuse is used as a means to gain and maintain control, because these men believe that, as a man, they simply have more rights than women.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: They believe that they are entitled to behave the way that they do.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: They believe that women should be held accountable for men's actions.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: As I touched on in part one, our families of origin and our society in general feed and encourage sexist myths.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: From a young age, many children are exposed to unhealthy behaviours, sexist relationship dynamics and problematic values, attitudes and beliefs about the role of women and relationships and the world in general.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Society and many families construct these sexist gender roles and reinforce them in many different ways throughout our lifetime.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: This leads to many men believing they are entitled to the balance of power and control and that women are the weaker sex who should serve them in a relationship.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: There is a gendered narrative in our community that says that, whilst men might be very intelligent maybe they work in high-powered jobs that it's still perfectly okay for them to be incompetent when it comes to household tasks and parenting.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: The reality is that if a guy can function at a reasonable level at work and in the world in general, the same expectations should apply to him at home.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: There's no reason that he shouldn't contribute a significant amount to parenting and household chores because he lives there too.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: They are his children too.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: This is a narrative in our society related to internalised misogyny that infantilises men, a narrative that says that men are somehow less skilled or less able, less capable when it comes to household chores and the day-to-day heavy lifting of parenting.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Make no mistake, this is deliberate.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: It's no accident.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: It's what patriarchy has given us a world designed by men for the benefit of men.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Men are largely let off the hook when it comes to household chores and parenting, because there is a narrative that they either just aren't good at it or they work hard doing other things outside the home, that they shouldn't be expected to pitch in, that nurturing and domestic duties are for women.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: This is infantilization of men, along with weaponized incompetence.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: If a woman can go to work and do household chores and parenting, then a man is also more than capable, and him doing his fair share is not him helping, it's just him doing his fair share in a home that he also lives in.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: The same way that a man caring for his children is not babysitting, it's parenting.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: From birth, most children primarily depend on their mother.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Most babies and young children, even older children, are primarily cared for and nurtured by their mother.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: But something happens in some families that results in male children continuing their dependence on their mothers.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: If they have sisters, their sisters tend to be more capable and independent.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: These men become what is sometimes referred to as a man-baby or a man-child.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I want to make it very clear here that I'm not using the terms man-baby or man-child to describe a man who has emotions or who demonstrates emotions.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: No one should ever be shamed for emotions, irrespective of their gender.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: It must be said here that when it comes to emotions, it is important how those emotions are managed and whether those emotions are weaponized against other people.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: But back to the terms man-baby and man-child.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: I'm using those terms to describe the behavior of some men who are very emotionally and behaviorally immature.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: They hold others around them, especially females, responsible for how they themselves are feeling.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: They tend not to be able to regulate their own emotions appropriately.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: They tend to soothe themselves by dumping their emotions onto their partner or onto their children, by behaving badly, by blaming others.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: They feel entitled to be cared for, whilst not demonstrating the same level of care for their partner or for their children.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: They want a gold star for unstacking the dishwasher or changing the nappy.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Fuck that.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Sticker charts are appropriate for kids, but for your partner no way.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I'm sidetracking a bit on this one, but these guys aren't thanking their partners for the fact that she does all the things and has most of the mental load.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: The reality is that these men don't just want a romantic partner.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Entwined with their vision of a romantic partner is also the expectation that she will be a servant for all of his physical and emotional needs, sometimes financial needs as well.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I've got several clients who are the primary earner for most of their relationship with a controlling, abusive and immature man.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: These men want and expect to be coddled and nurtured, first by their mum, then by their partner, and also often by their kids Gross.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: And when a woman realises that the guy that she's in a relationship with is never going to step up and be a mature adult, when she realizes that her children are more emotionally mature than their father, when she decides that she's just simply had enough of this unbalanced and inequitable dynamic, in conjunction with the controlling behavior and other forms of abuse, he somehow becomes the victim.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: That's the narrative for so many of these men.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: She's breaking up the family, she's taking the kids away from me.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: I'm so lonely, oh yeah, these men will even tell their kids that they're lonely in order to guilt the kids into feeling responsible for looking after dad, even young children, even toddlers.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: It's sickening.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: What is conveniently left out of the narrative of these men is any acknowledgement of the emotional, verbal and psychological abuse that his former partner and children have been subjected to.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: That's not mentioned, usually because these men have no insight into their behaviour or the harm that their behavior causes.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Rather, they feel very entitled to behave the way they do.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: They genuinely feel that they are hard done by.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: They grew up in a family, in a community, in a society, in a world that promised them that a woman would always be there to dote on them, that a woman would cook and clean for them, that a woman would provide children and do the majority of the care for those children.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Unless, of course, it's a situation where there's an audience or there's something fun going on, then these dads might jump up to show everyone what a great dad they are.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: They were promised that a woman would do all the heavy lifting of creating a life that looked wonderful to the outside world.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: But when she's had, these men genuinely believe that they are the victim and many people in the community buy into that victim narrative, believe that victim narrative.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: If only it was just getting messages about our own decision to leave.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: That would be almost bearable.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: But it doesn't stop there with flying monkeys, oh no, we get accused of taking the kids away, of not allowing our ex-partners time with children, the very children that they may have never genuinely parented for any real period of time on their own, ever.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: We're seen as the problem because we won't just hand over a toddler to a man who we know is abusive, who has very little patience or tolerance, who thinks that yelling abuse is acceptable little patience or tolerance, who thinks that yelling abuse is acceptable, who may have a problem with alcohol or drugs, who has never properly tuned into the needs of the kids and doesn't know how to comfort them when they're upset.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: We don't hand our kids over in those circumstances and we get told in no uncertain terms that we are the problem, that we're selfish certain terms that we are the problem, that we're selfish, that we're breaking the law, that we're unstable, that we're withholding, gatekeeping or alienating the poor man-child's life has imploded and it's all our fault.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: That's the message that we so often receive from his friends, his family, heck, sometimes even our own friends and family.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: But it doesn't stop there.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: It's also the message that we receive from police, from faith leaders, from lawyers, from the court system, from society as a whole.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Sexist beliefs, internalized misogyny, the infantilization of men all of these things contribute to the behavior of flying monkeys, the members of the community who enable and support abusive men.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: These are also why some women defend abusive men when it comes to sexism, internalized misogyny and the infantilization of men, it's important to note that most of this is not a voluntary process.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: We've all absorbed these sexist messages over time, these messages that, on some level, are encouraging us to question the worth and value of all women, that encourage us to believe the stereotypes and the myths about women, to the point that our brains don't even usually think about it, don't question it.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: In reality, very little of our thinking throughout any given day is deliberate or capable of critiquing our bias.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: That's the insidious thing about all of this we're usually not consciously aware of what is leading us to have a particular view.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: The good news is that we can begin to have a degree of control over our own internalised misogyny when we develop an awareness of it.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: It's important to note that there are other factors at play with flying monkeys too, particularly when someone has a personal stake in protecting an abuser.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: For example, mothers who defend abusive sons can struggle to make space for the thought that the man who was once her little boy could possibly be capable of causing harm.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: This can intersect with internalised misogyny, such as believing that if a man hurts a woman he must have a good reason, or justifying her son's behaviour because in her mind, her former daughter-in-law is a bitch.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Her former daughter-in-law has hurt the feelings of her baby boy.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Mothers of abusers can also be upset at the idea of losing contact with grandchildren and may believe that their former daughter-in-law is overreacting or lying about abuse in order to prevent her son from having access to the children.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Some women, and some men for that matter, struggle to make space for the fact that a man they may have known as decent and respectful could have possibly harmed others.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Many people in the community believe on a subconscious level that abusers are monsters and look like monsters, that they look like criminals, that they're either uneducated or undereducated, that they're abusive to everyone and so therefore easy to spot.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Sure, some abusers do look pretty sinister, but most look just like your dad or your brother, your neighbour, your doctor, the postie, the coach of one of your kids' sporting teams, or that guy that goes to your church with his wife and kids.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: The reality is that no matter what a man is accused of doing, he is no less of an abuser simply because he did not abuse you.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Defending abusers always undermines the voice of women and children who have disclosed abuse, and I'm really fucking sick of the way in which some other women will attempt to speak for all women by stating that the allegations must not be true because the alleged abuser has treated some women with respect.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: They believe the abuser's narrative, his narrative that paints her as a liar, perhaps told while he's crying.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Lies can be convincing.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: That's another problem with flying monkeys.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: They think that if he was lying, they'd be able to tell Bullshit.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Most abusers are pathological liars and because they often believe their own lies, they truly believe that they are the victim.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: This makes them very convincing and very compelling.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: This makes them very believable.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: If we're talking about someone who is currently in a relationship with an alleged abuser, perhaps has children with him, it's not just internalized misogyny at play.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: When she defends the alleged abuser.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: If he's an abuser, her world becomes negatively impacted.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Far better to call the other woman a liar than to make space for.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: The thought that you're in a relationship with an abuser, that you have potentially supported and defended an abuser, that you've made excuses for an abuser, that you share children with an abuser Heads up here to anyone who is in a relationship with a guy who has a former partner accusing him of being controlling or abusive, whatever he says about her, whatever he has done to her.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: This gives you a good amount of insight as to how he is going to behave toward you if your relationship with him ends.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Moving on to court outcomes, abusive men can be highly litigious and the adversarial nature of family law in the vast majority of countries plays right into the hands of someone who is controlling, abusive and aggressive.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: But when a positive court outcome is achieved by a woman, how do the abusers and the flying monkeys align that reality with their views that the abuser is really the victim?
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, don't you know?
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: That's just proof that apparently the court system favours women, favours mothers.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Seriously, as someone who endured three years in the court system and now supports other women on their court journey on a daily basis, that is one of the most fucking ridiculous things I have ever heard in my life that a court system favours women or favours mothers, but it just goes to show how far some people will go in order to protect abusers, in order to protect faulty sexist beliefs, internalized misogyny, and in order to protect the belief that she's really a liar.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Something else that goes on in our brains and the brains of flying monkeys is that our brains crave predictability, and this goes hand in hand with a desire that the world and the people in it are inherently good.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: This means that we have a tendency to believe that bad things happen to bad people and that if something bad or unfair happens to someone, our brains can tend to blame the victim.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: It's just a lot more comforting to believe that bad people are punished and good people are rewarded.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: It's for partly this reason, along with, of course, sexism and misogyny, that a woman who experiences unwanted sexual attention might be asked what she was wearing, what she did to encourage that attention.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: There's a tendency to blame her for what has happened.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: This victim blaming helps our brains feel safe, and we can extrapolate this to people who are experiencing other forms of abuse.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: No matter what the situation is, it's more comforting to believe that things are inherently fair and that if something bad happens to someone, it must be because of something they've done.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: It's so much more comforting for flying monkeys to think, to believe she must have deserved it and that if he's saying she's a liar, there must be something true in what he's saying.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: We all want to believe that things will be okay for us, that if we do the right thing, good things will come our way.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: If our brains can rationalize, that people deserve what happens to them, or that there must be a reason that something's happening, that there must be some kind of truth in it, it can help us to feel safer in the world, until something happens to us.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Of course, as I've mentioned on this topic before, the research in this area is so very clear.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: The vast majority of women who disclose abuse are telling the truth.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: The vast majority of children who disclose abuse are telling the truth.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: The vast majority of children who disclose abuse are telling the truth.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: It's not the abuser who should be believed.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Anyone who has ever spoken to police about family violence or who has fought for the safety of themselves and their children in court would likely not be so quick to assume that a woman is lying.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Believe me, this is not an easy road.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: If you know anything about numbers, percentages, likelihoods.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: A good first step is always going to be choosing to believe victim-survivors, because they are the ones most likely, statistically speaking, to be telling the truth.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: When things are underpinned by internalized misogyny, this can be really hard to identify as independent and feminist and woke, as we all might like to think that we are.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: We all have many sexist beliefs about how a woman should exist, how she should behave, how we should behave, how our daughters should behave.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: We all have sexist beliefs that have stemmed from our families of origin, community and societal expectations, gender stereotypes and gender roles.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: We all have a part to play here.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: It's so important to be conscious of our thoughts and ideas, not only about other women, but also about ourselves.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: We can all do something in our own little corner of the world.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: We can all try to catch ourselves if we immediately ever assume that a woman is lying, particularly if we assume that a woman is lying about something because a man has told us so, even if the man who's telling us this is someone that we love or respect.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: The truth is, we can love a man, we can respect a man, and that man can still be an abuser If you've been dealing with flying monkeys in your own situation friends, family members who have believed your ex-partner's narrative, who have blamed you for the situation that you're in, who have minimized your ex-partner's use of control and other forms of abuse.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: I see you.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: I see you and I understand what it is that you're dealing with.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: You're not alone.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: There are so many other women who are dealing with what you're dealing with and if you want support, I'm here to help.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.