Latest / Deep Tech Germany – AI, Robotics & Frontier Innovation by Startuprad.io™ / Nobel Laureate Steven Chu: Nuclear, Solar & Clean-Energy Innovation
Transcript
- WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:16.400 Music. 00:00:19.623 --> 00:00:24.223 Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io, 00:00:24.383 --> 00:00:27.023 your startup podcast and YouTube blog from Germany. 00:00:27.183 --> 00:00:32.963 Today we bring you another interview in connection with our attendance of Curious 2024. 00:00:33.383 --> 00:00:38.143 Today I'm thrilled to welcome Professor Stephen Chu here with me. Welcome. 00:00:39.323 --> 00:00:45.623 Glad to be here. You are a Nobel Laureate and former U.S. Energy Secretary Professor. 00:00:46.643 --> 00:00:52.243 You're holding the William R. Kahnan Junior Professorship of Physics, 00:00:52.503 --> 00:00:58.523 Molecular and Cellular Physiology at Stanford University, and you've made groundbreaking 00:00:58.523 --> 00:01:01.503 contributions to the fields of laser cooling, 00:01:01.903 --> 00:01:04.563 biophysics, and renewable energy. 00:01:04.563 --> 00:01:10.663 This interview is conducted in connection with the Curious 2024 held in Mainz, 00:01:10.783 --> 00:01:17.083 promises to delve into Professor Stephen Chu's work just a tiny bit. 00:01:17.123 --> 00:01:25.943 We won't take up too much of the available time. Let us start right away with our questions. 00:01:26.403 --> 00:01:34.743 As someone who observed and influenced energy policies in both the US and Europe, 00:01:34.943 --> 00:01:40.343 what do you see as the main difference between the two regions in terms of supporting 00:01:40.343 --> 00:01:43.003 and nurturing green and energy startups? 00:01:43.003 --> 00:01:46.983 Well, I would have to say that Europe, especially Western Europe, 00:01:47.043 --> 00:01:54.243 has been much more in the forefront of trying to make a transition away from 00:01:54.243 --> 00:01:58.823 carbon emitting technologies to to green tech. 00:01:58.823 --> 00:02:04.023 I think the exception would be in the Biden administration, 00:02:04.443 --> 00:02:11.683 the Inflation Reduction Act was a very, very huge support in terms of mostly 00:02:11.683 --> 00:02:16.263 tax breaks to further green technologies. 00:02:16.623 --> 00:02:21.823 But before that, I think Europe has been a leader in trying to simulate this 00:02:21.823 --> 00:02:26.483 transition. Just my pure personal assumption, if a Republican president would 00:02:26.483 --> 00:02:31.103 win again, I don't think those energy breaks will live any longer than necessary. 00:02:32.543 --> 00:02:36.943 That's probably true, although there was an attempt in the legislation, 00:02:37.263 --> 00:02:44.563 for example, in stimulating trying to create a market for a hydrogen economy. There is no market. 00:02:45.903 --> 00:02:49.523 Substantial tax breaks were put into the Inflation Reduction Act. 00:02:50.343 --> 00:02:55.163 And the hope was, I didn't really study the law that closely, 00:02:55.323 --> 00:02:59.183 but I heard that it's there for 10 years. 00:02:59.503 --> 00:03:06.323 Now, anything could happen if a Republican administration comes back in, 00:03:06.403 --> 00:03:09.403 because they're clearly not in favor of that. 00:03:09.623 --> 00:03:15.323 In fact, that candidate has said very loudly he's going to go back to drill, maybe drill. 00:03:16.003 --> 00:03:18.603 I do believe he says a lot quite loudly. 00:03:19.463 --> 00:03:23.883 Let's go to the next question. Europe has been at the forefront of renewable 00:03:23.883 --> 00:03:26.503 energy initiatives for years. 00:03:26.783 --> 00:03:32.023 In your opinion, what lessons can you ask green startups to learn from their 00:03:32.023 --> 00:03:36.383 European counterparts to enhance their growth and impact? 00:03:36.903 --> 00:03:41.083 Well, one of the things that I'll specifically mention Germany. 00:03:41.283 --> 00:03:48.383 First, they started with strong subsidies to promote solar, but they did more than that. 00:03:48.603 --> 00:03:53.963 And that really started started the interest and eventually for temporarily 00:03:53.963 --> 00:03:56.963 the overproduction of solar, which drove the prices down. 00:03:58.603 --> 00:04:06.003 But we are now in a position where solar is continuing to make great advances and lowering the cost. 00:04:06.263 --> 00:04:10.243 But the thing that I admire a lot is when I was secretary of energy, 00:04:10.443 --> 00:04:14.783 I was looking at why is Germany, which doesn't have as good sun as the United 00:04:14.783 --> 00:04:20.403 States by a flyer shot. Why is Germany leading in solar? Why are they actually doing this? 00:04:20.543 --> 00:04:25.803 And one of the things I noticed was that they made the process of a homeowner 00:04:25.803 --> 00:04:30.343 wants to put solar on their roof for a small business, they made it very easy. 00:04:31.023 --> 00:04:36.163 In the United States, it was determined by state, by local cities and counties, 00:04:36.363 --> 00:04:38.463 and they actually made it hard. 00:04:39.775 --> 00:04:44.755 Wanted to use the licensing of solar on a rooftop as a source of income. 00:04:44.975 --> 00:04:49.955 And I used to give speeches and said, look, why don't you get your income the 00:04:49.955 --> 00:04:52.215 old fashioned way by using speed traps? 00:04:52.395 --> 00:04:56.435 These are traps that catch cars speeding through their town and leave solar 00:04:56.435 --> 00:05:03.455 out of this because they would charge several thousand dollars inspection fees, all these other fees. 00:05:03.455 --> 00:05:06.695 Whereas I looked at Germany and said it all seems to be online, 00:05:06.955 --> 00:05:13.815 seamless, to actually help businesses and homeowners put solar on their roof. 00:05:14.095 --> 00:05:20.955 And so there were many things that were different in the way the United States 00:05:20.955 --> 00:05:23.355 promoted solar versus Germany. 00:05:25.435 --> 00:05:31.855 Germany. Some states are catching up, but still, it's still, 00:05:32.195 --> 00:05:34.335 you know, how do you make it seamless? 00:05:34.595 --> 00:05:40.315 How do you make it so that if people want to put solar, that the minimal licensing fees, inspections, 00:05:42.315 --> 00:05:48.535 for example, I used to say that if you want to install a hot water heater in your home, 00:05:50.175 --> 00:05:55.895 let's suppose it's a gas heater, then the rules are that there needs to be an 00:05:55.895 --> 00:05:58.815 inspector to make sure the gas plumbing was hooked up correctly. 00:05:59.115 --> 00:06:04.535 But other than that, if the water heater leaks, that's between you and your plumber. 00:06:04.895 --> 00:06:10.335 And similarly, my feeling was if you hook up solar in the rooftop, 00:06:10.595 --> 00:06:14.675 you need an inspector to make sure that it will interface with the grid, 00:06:14.675 --> 00:06:17.815 the distribution system in a way that. 00:06:20.069 --> 00:06:25.969 Break it down or harm it in any way. If the roof leaks, that's between you and the installer. 00:06:26.389 --> 00:06:33.349 And so, you know, I was urging that we have the minimum amount of responsible inspection, 00:06:33.729 --> 00:06:40.869 and the rest is up to the individual contract between you, the installer, 00:06:41.129 --> 00:06:43.549 and the government shouldn't be part of that. 00:06:43.789 --> 00:06:47.409 What also came to mind when you've been talking because when you talk about 00:06:47.409 --> 00:06:53.029 the sun, I vividly remember the high temperatures when I was attending college in Texas. 00:06:53.409 --> 00:07:00.849 I do believe you also do have some other challenges in terms of when you want to use solar energy. 00:07:01.069 --> 00:07:05.949 I'm thinking of states like Arizona, Texas and Nevada and so on and so forth. 00:07:06.069 --> 00:07:11.069 And then you need all the technology to get this really transported for long distances. 00:07:11.269 --> 00:07:15.909 I'm thinking, for example, California, New York, and the other urban areas, 00:07:16.089 --> 00:07:21.989 maybe even Chicago, because apparently they also don't have a lot of good sun there. 00:07:22.389 --> 00:07:25.509 Well, that is absolutely true. If you look at the solar map, 00:07:25.769 --> 00:07:31.789 the Southwestern United States, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada, 00:07:32.689 --> 00:07:39.269 superb solar, really some of the best around the world. 00:07:39.269 --> 00:07:45.429 There are a few other places that are slightly better, but we do need the transportation grid. 00:07:46.469 --> 00:07:51.429 We also are beginning to see that, for example, in California, 00:07:51.609 --> 00:07:55.809 which is now 70% of our electricity is carbon free. 00:07:57.289 --> 00:08:03.309 And we're installing more solar, but there's now so much solar that at noontime, 00:08:03.349 --> 00:08:09.449 when the sun is at its peak, there's beginning to be a surplus of solar energy. 00:08:10.089 --> 00:08:16.469 And so California is trying as much as can to start to build utility-scale batteries 00:08:16.469 --> 00:08:20.609 at the tens of gigawatts and gigawatt hour capacity. 00:08:21.169 --> 00:08:25.409 But there's going to be an issue because, as you pointed out, 00:08:25.589 --> 00:08:29.589 that part of the United States can have very, very hot summers. 00:08:30.189 --> 00:08:36.569 The peak of the air conditioning would be around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, not at noontime. 00:08:36.989 --> 00:08:44.929 And so you have an excess of renewable energy at noon, and then there's a sudden 00:08:44.929 --> 00:08:47.909 ramp-up we'd need that would be at the level of. 00:08:48.985 --> 00:08:52.325 Uh three four five gigawatt in 00:08:52.325 --> 00:08:55.605 terms of power ramping up in a few hours and 00:08:55.605 --> 00:09:01.205 so this is again another one of the challenges when you you have a big economy 00:09:01.205 --> 00:09:09.065 and also uh to take advantage of solar you still need a lot of energy storage 00:09:09.065 --> 00:09:15.185 and um germany every country who wants to go above 50 percent renewable, 00:09:15.525 --> 00:09:20.605 60, 70 percent, hopefully even higher, then storage becomes a key. 00:09:21.025 --> 00:09:28.045 And utility-scale storage has to be much more reliable than storage in an electric vehicle. 00:09:29.145 --> 00:09:36.185 Car breaks down, it's okay. You know, it's going to say one in a million cars will break down. 00:09:36.365 --> 00:09:42.725 But if you get a blackout, that's less okay. And so, those are some of the requirements. 00:09:45.225 --> 00:09:52.205 I don't know. It's been estimated in order to get three days storage in the United States. 00:09:52.245 --> 00:09:56.905 And three days will actually allow us to go to 80% renewable. 00:09:58.565 --> 00:10:04.945 And three days doesn't sound like much, but we are barely at the one-day storage. 00:10:06.485 --> 00:10:11.885 And so the difference between one day and three days is you effectively use 00:10:11.885 --> 00:10:15.165 your asset, your battery, one out of three days. 00:10:15.465 --> 00:10:21.165 And so the economic demand on a lower cost energy storage becomes higher and higher. 00:10:21.365 --> 00:10:25.425 You go to a one month storage, what does that mean? Do you use your asset once 00:10:25.425 --> 00:10:27.585 a month? And finally, seasonal storage. 00:10:28.145 --> 00:10:34.525 The only seasonal storage we have is actually hydroelectric power and and you 00:10:34.525 --> 00:10:39.725 know you would try to maximize the highlight hydroelectric power you do have 00:10:39.725 --> 00:10:46.725 but it's geography dependent and not all places have good mountains for example Germany. 00:10:48.025 --> 00:10:55.145 Does not have the mountains that Norway and Switzerland and even Austria have oh Oh, yeah. 00:10:55.245 --> 00:10:58.545 Austria, I interviewed a guest there. 00:10:58.705 --> 00:11:01.145 His startup is in construction. 00:11:01.545 --> 00:11:06.525 And he told me, yeah, we have maybe in a good year, seven months of constructions going on. 00:11:06.925 --> 00:11:11.085 Before we move on, I was curious when you were talking about solar, 00:11:11.205 --> 00:11:13.765 do you have solar panels on the roof of your house? 00:11:14.405 --> 00:11:17.605 Yes, this is an embarrassing question. The answer is no. No, 00:11:17.605 --> 00:11:25.725 what we do do is we're in, we have a ranking of how much electricity families use. 00:11:26.765 --> 00:11:30.625 My wife and I are, you know, children are gone. 00:11:30.765 --> 00:11:38.485 And so we are in the lowest 10% of energy use in our area. 00:11:39.465 --> 00:11:42.045 And the question is. 00:11:43.350 --> 00:11:47.790 Uh do i put in solar do i 00:11:47.790 --> 00:11:50.730 have any of these things of that nature i probably will put 00:11:50.730 --> 00:11:53.930 in solar it's not going to actually have any economic 00:11:53.930 --> 00:11:57.390 return for me because the payback might 00:11:57.390 --> 00:12:02.290 be 10 15 years i'm not sure i'll be living in this house in 15 years but i will 00:12:02.290 --> 00:12:09.010 probably put in solar in next year i have another conundrum with my car it's 00:12:09.010 --> 00:12:15.890 a it's 22 years old i only drive it at 1,200 miles a year. 00:12:17.690 --> 00:12:19.970 The question is why do I even own a car? 00:12:22.310 --> 00:12:30.230 I ride my bicycle to work. At errands, anything less than a few miles, I'll ride my bicycle. 00:12:30.430 --> 00:12:34.150 I can do this in California because most of the time, the weather's very good. 00:12:35.590 --> 00:12:39.650 But the short answer to your question is not yet in terms of solar. 00:12:39.650 --> 00:12:44.250 But the problem was our roof has a... 00:12:45.051 --> 00:12:50.871 A Spanish tile roof, and most solar installers won't touch that. 00:12:51.251 --> 00:12:57.731 And so finally, I did look into it a year ago and found that in order to install 00:12:57.731 --> 00:13:01.171 this on a Spanish tile roof, you actually have to take off the Spanish tiles, 00:13:01.491 --> 00:13:06.351 replace it with some lookalike concrete tiles, and then they're willing to put 00:13:06.351 --> 00:13:09.131 solar on the roof. So it's a much bigger deal. 00:13:10.351 --> 00:13:13.451 But I will do this. By the way, 00:13:13.491 --> 00:13:16.691 I actually know how you're feeling uh when i 00:13:16.691 --> 00:13:20.271 went to college uh during my apprenticeship high school and so on and forth 00:13:20.271 --> 00:13:25.531 i needed a car and i kept it until it was 25 and it was almost breaking apart 00:13:25.531 --> 00:13:31.891 well this car is in good shape it only has 75 000 miles and i inherited from 00:13:31.891 --> 00:13:35.691 my wife it's an old bmw 325 five, 00:13:36.071 --> 00:13:41.391 that car, you know, 75,000 miles, that car will go at least 200,000 miles. 00:13:44.131 --> 00:13:48.071 So hopefully it will be the last car I own in my life. 00:13:48.311 --> 00:13:52.711 If it breaks down, then I will buy an electric vehicle, but you know, 00:13:52.731 --> 00:13:56.731 it's, and I don't drive it very much at all. 00:13:57.071 --> 00:14:03.211 Considering your extensive background in renewable energy and your role in initiatives like 00:14:03.611 --> 00:14:09.491 ARPA-E, what do you believe are key factors that will drive the next wave of 00:14:09.491 --> 00:14:13.731 successful energy startups in both the US and Europe? 00:14:13.971 --> 00:14:18.631 Well, I think the experience we've had in ARPA-E where we've funded a number 00:14:18.631 --> 00:14:24.051 of companies, they're successful in the usual startup definition, 00:14:24.411 --> 00:14:30.791 meaning after, let's say, eight years, 10 years, they could have a billion-dollar evaluation. 00:14:30.991 --> 00:14:38.071 They have a runway of $300 or $400 million, three years to do something. 00:14:38.611 --> 00:14:43.891 And when I look at those companies, I see they've just begun. 00:14:44.970 --> 00:14:48.250 At that level, there is not massive deployment. 00:14:49.270 --> 00:14:53.810 And so if you think about where we need to be, 00:14:54.510 --> 00:15:02.790 I've been spending a lot of time thinking, how do you get from this billion-dollar valuation, 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:13.110 $300 million of cash runway, dozens of people, but really not at the scale you 00:15:13.110 --> 00:15:18.130 need to begin to really change carbon emissions and energy use. 00:15:18.550 --> 00:15:23.050 And so you need the next step would be much larger investments. 00:15:23.990 --> 00:15:31.850 Typically, the investors in a startup company, the old mentality is that you 00:15:31.850 --> 00:15:33.250 want to maximize your investment. 00:15:33.430 --> 00:15:37.490 You don't want to share IP. the best of all possible worlds, 00:15:37.550 --> 00:15:40.450 either you become fabulously successful like Google, 00:15:40.810 --> 00:15:47.010 or you get bought up by a big company for, I'm going to make up a number, 00:15:47.210 --> 00:15:49.410 you know, a billion dollars. 00:15:50.110 --> 00:15:52.830 It's good for the investors, but 00:15:52.830 --> 00:15:57.510 it's the big companies that have the real resources, financial resources. 00:15:57.510 --> 00:16:04.490 And so how do you team up these innovative startups with the bigger companies 00:16:04.490 --> 00:16:09.290 that might have more inertia so that you have a combination of financial assets, 00:16:09.570 --> 00:16:15.930 more connection to markets, but you have the innovative energy and drive and 00:16:15.930 --> 00:16:17.490 hard work of a small startup? 00:16:18.430 --> 00:16:24.170 You know, if I look at people who work at startups, they're working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. 00:16:25.510 --> 00:16:32.190 You're in a big company, you have regular hours. I see. The last question was actually inspired. 00:16:32.330 --> 00:16:35.950 You gave an interview to the German newspaper, FAZ. 00:16:36.630 --> 00:16:41.850 They made the headline something, if the Greens were reasonable, 00:16:42.070 --> 00:16:45.650 they would prefer nuclear energy. 00:16:45.970 --> 00:16:51.510 So my question is, how do you view the future of nuclear energy with the broader 00:16:51.510 --> 00:16:55.890 context of renewable energy sources? process, especially when comparing the 00:16:55.890 --> 00:16:58.610 strategies and policies in place in the US and Europe? 00:16:58.790 --> 00:17:01.670 Okay, this is a very important question. 00:17:03.450 --> 00:17:08.810 There is a lot of strong opinions and sentiments about nuclear. 00:17:10.130 --> 00:17:11.910 Many of them are against nuclear. 00:17:16.605 --> 00:17:23.385 A variety of reasons but the question really is suppose you want to get to as 00:17:23.385 --> 00:17:28.745 high a fraction of renewables as possible and energy storage as they said and 00:17:28.745 --> 00:17:30.725 distribution and transmission are issues, 00:17:31.565 --> 00:17:38.465 but in the end I think you would still need some compact turn on source of energy 00:17:38.465 --> 00:17:44.625 for electricity And I see that in the future as being either natural gas or nuclear. 00:17:45.405 --> 00:17:49.245 I don't see coal in the long term as having much of a future. 00:17:49.385 --> 00:17:51.525 It's very dangerous in particular matter. 00:17:52.245 --> 00:17:57.405 It's very polluting. And with natural gas, you need to be able to capture the 00:17:57.405 --> 00:17:59.185 carbon dioxide and sequester it. 00:17:59.545 --> 00:18:04.125 But there's also known that when you're drilling for natural gas, 00:18:04.185 --> 00:18:09.285 recovering it, two to maybe six percent of the natural gas comes out of the ground. 00:18:09.785 --> 00:18:14.765 And in the capture of the carbon dioxide, you're capturing 90%, 00:18:14.765 --> 00:18:20.805 maybe 92%, but you're not going to capture 95%. So there's always an overhead there. 00:18:21.485 --> 00:18:26.385 And then finally, the sequestration of the carbon dioxide is not trivial. 00:18:26.485 --> 00:18:31.565 The amount of carbon dioxide you actually have to sequester safely is huge compared 00:18:31.565 --> 00:18:33.725 to the amount of spent fuel you have to sequester. 00:18:33.725 --> 00:18:36.785 Now, the conundrum about nuclear, 00:18:37.085 --> 00:18:41.625 besides there are some fears, 00:18:41.805 --> 00:18:50.765 I do my best to try to explain that most people don't realize that, for example, 00:18:50.925 --> 00:18:57.525 in the food you eat, roughly 30 or 40 percent of it is in radioactivity in the food. 00:18:57.525 --> 00:19:04.305 This is naturally occurring radioactivity, for example, potassium that occurs 00:19:04.305 --> 00:19:10.565 in meat and bananas and many things we eat, green vegetables. 00:19:12.965 --> 00:19:24.445 The health people, the FDA, say there's recommended daily requirements for potassium. 00:19:24.445 --> 00:19:30.905 Potassium, but it's not a question of actually endangering your health. 00:19:31.185 --> 00:19:36.165 The radioactivity levels, depending on your diet and where you live, 00:19:36.345 --> 00:19:40.265 could vary by factors of three or four, this background radiation, 00:19:40.625 --> 00:19:44.245 and there's no correlation at all between that and cancer. 00:19:44.525 --> 00:19:47.925 So at these very low levels, it's not a danger. 00:19:49.705 --> 00:19:57.785 And so, one of the things that people need to be assured of is the chance of 00:19:57.785 --> 00:20:01.305 a contamination is very small. 00:20:01.505 --> 00:20:03.685 I believe it can be made even smaller. 00:20:04.625 --> 00:20:08.865 The radioactive waste disposal, if I look at countries like Finland and Sweden, 00:20:09.045 --> 00:20:15.225 they're making good progress in spent fuel, and it's compact and it's carbon-free. 00:20:16.497 --> 00:20:21.177 Now, despite all of that, what has happened is we've forgotten how to build 00:20:21.177 --> 00:20:24.137 large nuclear reactors on budget on time. 00:20:24.277 --> 00:20:30.997 And as long as they are very expensive and have a possibility of going over 00:20:30.997 --> 00:20:33.837 budget, and the more recent ones have gone over budget, 00:20:34.037 --> 00:20:39.577 we're talking $10 billion per one gigawatt electrical power. 00:20:40.377 --> 00:20:46.197 You go over budget by 50%, that $5 billion extra is a huge financial hole. 00:20:46.497 --> 00:20:51.217 So the industry has to learn how to build them on budget, on time. 00:20:51.537 --> 00:20:56.097 I personally think there's another approach. 00:20:56.317 --> 00:21:01.997 I've been advocating this since 2010, where you make small modular reactors 00:21:01.997 --> 00:21:04.497 instead of a gigawatt to one and a half gigawatts. 00:21:05.117 --> 00:21:11.417 There are 100 megawatts. They're factory made so they can be on much more stringent conditions. 00:21:11.417 --> 00:21:16.617 But the most important thing is instead of building them one at a time, 00:21:16.837 --> 00:21:24.697 imagine that you can start with a thousand orders and you go and maybe several 00:21:24.697 --> 00:21:28.117 models and you have these small modular reactors. 00:21:28.577 --> 00:21:36.797 There's a rule in business called the learning curve. It's not a fundamental rule of science. 00:21:37.357 --> 00:21:43.257 But the more you produce, the better you are at lowering the manufacturing costs. 00:21:43.437 --> 00:21:45.217 And there's also steady improvements. 00:21:45.777 --> 00:21:51.697 And so what happens in learning curves is, for example, you double the number of units. 00:21:53.497 --> 00:21:57.517 The price, the manufacturing cost goes down by a certain percentage. 00:21:57.577 --> 00:22:02.677 You double again, it goes down by a certain percentage. So that means that if 00:22:02.677 --> 00:22:09.797 you're going up by factors of 10 in shipping out things, the cost goes down by some slope. 00:22:10.457 --> 00:22:13.657 It's a percentage, so it's an exponential decline. 00:22:15.381 --> 00:22:21.121 This is well-known in all manufacturing. When Tesla was making Model Ss and 00:22:21.121 --> 00:22:26.301 selling 5,000 or 10,000 a year, they were losing money, even though the cars 00:22:26.301 --> 00:22:28.041 cost $100,000, $120,000. 00:22:28.821 --> 00:22:34.681 They make a Model Y, Model 3 that costs $50,000, $60,000, but they're selling 00:22:34.681 --> 00:22:37.241 half a million, making lots of money. 00:22:38.161 --> 00:22:46.541 And so the idea of a learning curve is true in everything except a few things like nuclear. 00:22:47.821 --> 00:22:52.821 Nuclear because there's big projects and just a few big projects. 00:22:53.481 --> 00:22:58.841 So I said let's turn it around, let's make lots of little guys in factories 00:22:58.841 --> 00:23:00.621 that you can ship on a truck. 00:23:01.321 --> 00:23:04.481 After ten years you ship it back, you refuel it, you ship it. 00:23:04.601 --> 00:23:10.521 So it's inherently much safer, could even be designed that it would be seamless 00:23:10.521 --> 00:23:18.101 to take these smaller modular reactors and integrate that with the spent fuel issue. 00:23:20.281 --> 00:23:28.261 In the end, now, there are at least a dozen startup companies looking at small modular reactors. 00:23:28.581 --> 00:23:32.701 There's also a few countries, China, Russia, for example, are doing these. 00:23:32.701 --> 00:23:42.541 But I think that could be a way to decrease any risk of contamination. 00:23:42.801 --> 00:23:46.201 There's always some risk, but you make it very, very small. 00:23:46.461 --> 00:23:51.101 And so the risks, for example, of getting on an airplane, flying somewhere, 00:23:51.181 --> 00:23:52.961 people don't really think I may die. 00:23:54.741 --> 00:24:01.221 It's so small that whenever there's an incident, a near miss, 00:24:01.321 --> 00:24:05.941 something, or even a crash, the whole world looks at what happened and tries 00:24:05.941 --> 00:24:07.061 to figure out what happened. 00:24:07.281 --> 00:24:13.961 And so that ethic and that way of promoting safety year after year after year, 00:24:14.041 --> 00:24:18.481 decade after decade, the airplane flight is getting more and more safe, 00:24:18.641 --> 00:24:20.801 the same thing could be true of nuclear, 00:24:22.081 --> 00:24:30.141 and maybe this learning curve model of making lots of them will enable the cost to go down. 00:24:31.021 --> 00:24:38.161 But you need those things and you need the public trust that the chance of contamination 00:24:38.161 --> 00:24:39.921 is very, very small. all. 00:24:41.821 --> 00:24:47.681 Now, burning anything, whether it's natural gas or coal, coal is the worst because 00:24:47.681 --> 00:24:48.861 of the particulate matter. 00:24:49.241 --> 00:24:54.621 But if you look at the danger of various forms of energy per unit, 00:24:55.561 --> 00:25:05.921 energy that's produced per terawatt hour, nuclear is perhaps thousands of times more dangerous. 00:25:06.541 --> 00:25:11.681 Sorry, coal is thousands of times more dangerous than nuclear because of the particulate matter. 00:25:15.012 --> 00:25:18.072 Nuclear is as safe as wind and solar. 00:25:18.892 --> 00:25:25.212 It's a hundred times safer than burning wood pellets that some European countries 00:25:25.212 --> 00:25:28.372 do because of, again, because of the particular matter. 00:25:28.672 --> 00:25:36.372 So these are things that hopefully as we understand the climate risks and how important they are. 00:25:36.932 --> 00:25:43.892 And there has to be some compact turn on source of power just in case you run 00:25:43.892 --> 00:25:47.332 out of battery storage, you need something. 00:25:47.592 --> 00:25:53.312 And I think that nuclear should be part of the future energy source. 00:25:53.672 --> 00:25:59.232 I do believe that at one point, we need to realize the tornadoes, 00:25:59.232 --> 00:26:03.812 the hurricanes, the storms, the floodings, and so on and so forth. 00:26:03.932 --> 00:26:07.832 They'll only get worse if we don't change our way of living. 00:26:08.332 --> 00:26:14.972 And I believe at one point we need to do a more radical change, 00:26:15.292 --> 00:26:19.732 especially in our energy production, where Germany did the interesting step 00:26:19.732 --> 00:26:22.572 of getting rid of all nuclear power. 00:26:22.892 --> 00:26:27.452 So I'm not sure about, as a final question of your opinion of that, 00:26:27.652 --> 00:26:29.892 what do you believe will happen? 00:26:30.092 --> 00:26:36.232 Are we going to reactivate them or have a lot of smaller projects? 00:26:36.612 --> 00:26:39.812 Nuclear power plants here in Germany at one point in the future? 00:26:40.172 --> 00:26:44.132 Well, that's a difficult question, and I don't really know the details. 00:26:44.252 --> 00:26:51.252 When I talk with people in Germany, once a nuclear power plant shut down for 00:26:51.252 --> 00:26:54.412 a few years, they say, no, it's difficult to start up. 00:26:54.532 --> 00:26:58.452 There was a time when there were, and they were not that old. 00:26:58.672 --> 00:27:04.892 The United States, for example, is going ahead, and for most of the power plants, 00:27:04.892 --> 00:27:12.212 with a few exceptions, meaning that these cities grew near these power plants, nuclear power plants. 00:27:12.372 --> 00:27:13.772 Most of the power plants, nearly 00:27:13.772 --> 00:27:18.792 100 in the United States, are going to be relicensed for another 20 years. 00:27:19.012 --> 00:27:23.932 The initial licensing was 40 years, but it was a very conservative licensing. 00:27:25.012 --> 00:27:33.572 And the Nuclear Regulatory Agency Commission is methodically going through on 00:27:33.572 --> 00:27:37.192 a reactor by reactor basis, making a determination. 00:27:37.852 --> 00:27:41.272 Are they going to be safe for another 20 year operation? 00:27:43.012 --> 00:27:47.712 And so far, for the most part, virtually all of them are. 00:27:49.788 --> 00:27:54.328 I think the same could have been done for the German reactors, but what's done is done. 00:27:54.568 --> 00:27:58.568 And now the question is, is it feasible to restart that? 00:27:58.628 --> 00:28:03.728 I have to honestly say I would have to talk to the people who just mothballed these reactors. 00:28:05.208 --> 00:28:11.008 Starting a new generation of reactors, it's not going to make an influence on 00:28:11.008 --> 00:28:14.108 carbon emissions for 10 or 20 years. 00:28:14.848 --> 00:28:20.568 You know, you're looking at a lead time of getting approval for any new modular reactor. 00:28:20.748 --> 00:28:25.808 A large reactor is typically a decade from the time you decide we're going to 00:28:25.808 --> 00:28:31.048 build it to the time you can turn it on, if it doesn't meet delays. 00:28:31.648 --> 00:28:34.728 And so where are we? We are. 00:28:35.128 --> 00:28:42.128 But it's a very, very different place because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 00:28:42.128 --> 00:28:52.828 Ukraine, and essentially a rearming of NATO, we seem to be going back to a very Cold War mentality. 00:28:53.668 --> 00:28:58.688 And then the question is, before it was going to be cheap Russian gas, 00:28:58.908 --> 00:29:03.168 it's going to be the transition of the German energy. 00:29:05.348 --> 00:29:13.668 If you use liquefied natural gas, it's more expensive. And then again, that has to be folded in. 00:29:13.708 --> 00:29:20.868 If the energy prices in Germany go too high, I'm afraid that many of your heavy 00:29:20.868 --> 00:29:27.868 industries, much of your wealth creation is in automobiles, steel, chemicals. 00:29:28.788 --> 00:29:33.648 These are heavily energy intensive industries. industries, and so if you want 00:29:33.648 --> 00:29:40.968 to remain competitive as a supplier of these materials, energy costs cannot go up that much. 00:29:41.208 --> 00:29:48.428 I think nuclear can play a role in this, especially if one doesn't want to turn 00:29:48.428 --> 00:29:54.088 back to Russian gas, and there are very complicated reasons why you might not want to do that. 00:29:55.188 --> 00:29:58.008 I do believe we don't want to do that. 00:29:58.388 --> 00:30:04.008 Professor Chu, it was a pleasure having you as a guest thank you very much okay 00:30:04.008 --> 00:30:08.828 thank you and i wish you all good luck thank you good luck with the car and 00:30:08.828 --> 00:30:14.068 your solar panel installation okay right bye goodbye. 00:30:19.120 --> 00:30:45.226 Music.