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#53 Chuck Loeffler on Project Quiver · Salish Wolf

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Welcome to Project Quiver, a father daughter journey across
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the globe to capture the artistry and spirit of the
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world's finest traditional bow carvers.
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I'm Todd, the father. Ella is my daughter.
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Together we're on a mission to create a stunning coffee table
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book that profiles more than a dozen master bow years and their
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unparalleled skill. For each chapter, we travel to
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the Bow Years workshop. Carve a bow under his guidance,
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photograph his woodcraft in detail and share his story here
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on the Salish Wolf Podcast. The book is called Quiver the
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Art of Life. Through bow craft and this
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journey, our living story is Project Quiver.
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How was your visit? It was.
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It was awesome. Yeah.
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I mean, yeah, what a great vacation.
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That's great. That surf that we had, man, it's
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been huge. It's really been huge and kind
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of messy. But I've been out.
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I've been out the last two days, but I didn't surf from when I
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surfed with you until yesterday because it was just and
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yesterday was kind of gnarly. I wish I hadn't gone but.
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Yeah, I I saw that on the forecast.
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I was thinking that our timing was perfect.
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Yeah, I don't really want to mess with bigger than six feet.
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There was some, I think there was some double overheads coming
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in on some of those days. There was a big surf
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competition. Were you here for that?
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I think it was the Costa Rica championships.
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I think that was Saturday. Yeah.
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Day that we left Friday or Saturday?
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OK, yeah. And it was, it was pumping so.
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I mean, that was a long board event too, right?
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Yeah, yeah. It was a long board event I
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didn't go see. It long board and stand up
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paddle boarding. I didn't even, I didn't, I
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didn't even go see it so. That'd take some talent to get
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out there. Wow.
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No, I didn't know that. That's me nuts.
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Yeah. Weeds out the field.
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It sure does, yeah. How are things going?
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Things are going good. Just trying to catch up on
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everything that I got really far behind on when I took a week off
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of everything. So yeah.
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How's the life of a bow year? It's good I can spend a little
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more time doing it now. Don't have much school this
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summer so. Is it is this full time for you?
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The. The bow year.
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No, I have multiple jobs kind of by choice.
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I coach free big mountain, free skiing.
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Nice. The winter time, like high
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school age kids, OK, and you know that's a that's another
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jobby just like bow making. Yeah.
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And I, I mean kind of by choice. I'm not sure I really want to do
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it much more than 20 hours a week.
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Feel like it, it wears a little bit because I'm just in my
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hermit shack, you know? Yeah, of course.
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Yeah, I think, you know, I could definitely do it.
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I could definitely have enough work to do it 40 hours a week or
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probably more if I wanted to. But I just, yeah, I need need a
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little bit more, more variety. Are you making bows?
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They're all for. I've got a big back order for
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Yeah, just whatever, whatever bow someone orders.
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I mean, I make whatever someone wants from, you know, around the
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world. That's kind of my thing.
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And how do people, how do people find you?
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Website or just by a word of mouth?
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Pretty much. I guess I don't.
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I don't really advertise. I do have heartwood bows,
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youknow.com. Not, yeah, not not the South
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African one. No, no, Luckily our bows are
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nothing alike, so. Sorry about that confusion.
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We're never going to butt heads there.
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Good, but. 2 Bowers with the same company name and both of
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you are in Project Quipper so that's cool.
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Yeah, that is cool. So in in what way are your bows
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not alike? Like what is your niche?
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My niche is to make anything that anyone wants out of.
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I mostly do replicas. I don't sell that many hunting
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bows. I have.
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You know, I've had someone in Germany who's kept me busy for
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years now and he basically, you know, he wants a good 100%
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authentic representation of all these bows from across the
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Americas really. So I'm replicating sets out of
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whenever I can, the same wood, you know, the exact same wood it
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was used. Same arrow wood.
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Of course, you know, I use, I don't use bird of prey feathers,
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but sometimes you can find some funky Turkey feathers or, you
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know, Canadian goose look, they can look a lot like eagle
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feathers. But yeah, I'm I'm just trying to
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replicate like the best, what would be the best bow of that
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time 200 years ago? So you're making arrows as well,
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is that? Yeah, with the feathers.
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OK. And then what does this German
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guy do with all of these bows? He's got a massive collection.
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Really. He collects Native American
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stuff. Yeah, in Germany.
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I, I don't know, maybe he's reselling them there.
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But he sent me his, his room, his display room, which is
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pretty impressive. If I might talk to you later
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about getting his contact, because we're definitely going
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to be travelling through Germany a few times and all of our all
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of our Bowers from Germany that we've tried to get have not come
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through, but we're still moving through that area.
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So it'd be really cool to go see a collection of bows.
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Yeah. And for you, you're, you.
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Are you doing just Native American replicas?
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No, I, I do whatever. I mean, I, I got into the
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Asiatic horn bows a few years back, got into that kick for a
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bit. I mean, that's that's pretty fun
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too. But they take a couple years to
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make. So each bow, yeah.
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Why is that? I mean, I use all natural
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materials and so when you're using, you know, I use the sinew
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straps to make the glue. Sinews or void?
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Sinew doesn't really matter. I mostly use elk sinew and yeah,
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sinew of, you know, the deer, Deer, elk, cow if you want it,
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Buffalo leg tendon or the back strap.
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Tendon. So you make glue from that.
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I do because that's what's on the back.
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So just a little more detail. Yeah, the, the core of those
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bows, it's, you know, maybe three to seven pieces, spliced
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V, spliced wood, Maple, Birch, whatever else they use at the
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time. Tamarack or tamarisk, sorry, in
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China, white Mulberry, some like not so prime bow woods.
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And that's the core. The belly is horn, animal horn,
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which can withstand like 7 or so times the compression of even
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the best wood and then the sinew can handle like 15 times the
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tension of wood. So you have those, the Turkish
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flight bows, you know, like 40 inches or so that mostly are
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just bending by the handle, which, you know, the, at the
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last flight shoot, we had some of the northern Europeans out
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there and they brought, you know, their masters with this
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craft and they're bringing theirs out and shooting.
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What's Ivar's record? It's I think over 600 yards with
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all natural materials, pretty amazing.
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But it's so getting back to all the time it takes when you're
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using the natural animal glues, they form like ever increasing
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complex bond over time. And since you use heat to tiller
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these bows because when they dry, they dry up into a reflex
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that can sometimes touch the tips.
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So you have to use heat to get some of that out.
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And the glue hasn't formed enough of a bond to hold on when
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you have to heat it up to a, you know, a certain temperature to
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where it wouldn't slip, where the parts wouldn't slip apart.
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So you got to get at least like 6 months or so before you can
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take heat to manipulate the bend.
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What kind of horn are you using? Water Buffalo is the best.
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Is that like 2 pieces connected together or are you splicing a
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bunch of pieces? How's it?
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Work. No, they're, they're quite long.
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They're it's one spliced in the middle.
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OK. And then yeah, the back is
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multiple layers of sinew. That's so cool, so.
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Yeah, how did? How did you get into that?
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It's just a different kind of bow.
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I mean, there's some of the that technology has been around for
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more than a couple thousand years.
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The the Citians, you know, were some of the first there.
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They built theirs differently with the horns sideways.
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So this is the front of the bow. It's going down the middle
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instead of on the facing side. So really unique construction.
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But, you know, there's, there's written language over there.
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So they've been perfecting that for thousands of years, you
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know, Asia, Eastern Europe, wherever those were built.
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And were those used for war or for other purposes?
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Yes, war, until they weren't as useful with the better firearms
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and then they were used for sport.
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But they still had, you know, they, they had the similar draw
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to English longos. They were also upwards of £100
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but much shorter. You know they're around 50 or so
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inches. And what are the strings made
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of? The strings, depending on where
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you were Sinew silk I'm not. I'm not sure what else.
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I know there's old existing silk ones from some of the oldest
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ones. I know sinew was used and I'm
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not sure what else top of my head right now so you have to
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look it up. My first bow which I still have
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English Longbow has water Buffalo tips on it but U bow.
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And actually I used to have a phobia of water buffaloes when I
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was like 20 ish travelling in India.
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I was in Varanasi walking along the gaps along the river and one
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of them charged me and actually made full contact but
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fortunately his handler was there at kind of the same time.
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They did make contact with me and pulled it off.
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I was like, what the fuck just happened?
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I remember, I remember I was running away because I'm like,
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there's a Buffalo charging at me.
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But I wasn't really sprinting because I I was just in
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disbelief. I'm like, there's no way this
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thing is actually charging at me.
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And sure enough, I turn around and it's right on me and bam,
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right in the backside. Wow, that's a reasonable phobia.
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I would. Say so.
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Anyway, that's my only experience really with with the
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water Buffalo. Right.
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And then the replicas that you make of North American bows,
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those are all wood or do they use other materials?
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Wood and sinew and some of the bows that people ask him to make
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the most, which it's not my favorite, are bighorn sheep
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bows. Native Americans in the Great
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Basin, Columbia Plateau in the Plains area.
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They all used both elk antler, possibly Caribou and bighorn
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sheep horns. For the actual limbs of the bow
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again. For the limbs of the bow, yes.
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Some of the horns are big enough to where it would be a single
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piece, and some of those bows are as small as 30 inches long.
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They're horseback bows and they don't work without sinew, so
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they need sometimes 50% of the whole mouse of the bow is sinew.
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And why don't you like working with a bighorn sheep?
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I think I've I've taken roughly like 40 old bighorn sheep mouths
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off the market. I used to get them for $300 or
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so and now they're almost impossible to find for under
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1000 or 1200. I've started using other
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sheephorn, experimenting with those and so far they seem to
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work. But it's it's the same thing.
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You got to wait it out until you can manipulate the band.
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So this is sheep. It's just a single handle
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splice. I can't you can't see it.
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So I won't do much of this for the podcast, but.
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Does it matter what the original shape of the horn is?
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Yeah, it does have a memory and you can heat it.
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You can boil it out, but boiling it for more than 10 minutes will
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start to take out. You know, it'll start to weaken
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the horn, it'll turn it. It'll make some glue, especially
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with, with antler antlers, boiling that will make a weak
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glue. Whereas you know, keratin, the
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bighorn sheep is just keratin, it's fingernails, whatever.
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So it will weaken it after a while.
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You can boil it for a little bit longer, but I don't like to go
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more than 10 minutes and then strap it to something and let it
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dry out. And some of that, some of that
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curve will come back. Bighorn sheep are pretty
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straight. So you can cut once the, you
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know, leave it as wide as possible.
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Once the twist comes back, you can just carve that out and
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still have a straight piece. A straight enough piece long
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enough to splice in my handle. Interesting.
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And that glue that you're talking about, So in Chinese
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medicine, antler glue is actually a medicine is
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different, different things. Now is it the antler?
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Is it they felt the antler felt? Sorry I made an animal noise
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there. It's been too long since I've
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studied it and I've never used it.
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I've never actually used it, so I but I my belief is it is
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antler horn. I'll look that up.
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But they use all kinds of things, including flying
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squirrel feces, so that's an interesting one.
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Yeah, and I mean the other ones mostly sinew backwood is what I
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use. OK, yeah, deer, deer antler
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base, Lujo pen. It's for kidney nourishing and
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strengthens the bones and muscles.
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But there's a number of things that again, that are used that
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are probably shouldn't be used. And that's that's a that's a
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whole another topic. But anyway, back to bow years.
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If you believe in it, it works, right?
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Yeah, yeah. How did you get into the
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replicas? Like what sparked your interest
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in that? Because you're, you're exact
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with those, right? You're not just taking influence
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and then creating your own stuff.
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You're doing some exact replicas.
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I guess that's what a replica is.
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Yeah, For flight archery, we can get into that later, but those
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are slightly modified replicas. But for the replicas, it's just
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I, I've, I love history and, you know, I grew up in Colorado and
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lived in Utah and California and everywhere I've been, I've just
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kind of wanted to replicate those.
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I mean, I made bent sticks as a little kid and then got into
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junior Olympic archery when I was about 12, which was a, a
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good bonding time with my dad, who didn't have much time.
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I think that's what really got me into archery.
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And then I kind of lost interest in the whole target shooting and
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just wanted to make my own as a teenager, I guess.
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Yeah, I think I tried to make my first Sinu back bow at 14.
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Wow. Right.
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And it kind of worked because it was Sinu backed.
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If it was just wood, it wouldn't have worked at all.
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So. And was that sinu from an animal
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you would kill? I bought it at an Indian trading
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post in Denver, so yeah, it was store bought.
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SO14I, when did you actually develop your interest in, I
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mean, archery? I understand my my son was doing
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archery when he was like 5 and he was interested in bow
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carving, but he still at 12 hasn't taken on the endeavor of
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carving anything overly complex. Like how did you get into what
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what was the interest? Where'd it come from beyond your
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dad? Or was it just your dad?
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My dad would just go shooting. He'd just take me shooting and
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then, you know, when I wanted to make bows, he'd take me to the
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hardwood store and we just, we didn't have all the information
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back then. This is late 80s I guess.
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So I just used the right wood, the wrong pieces, no grain
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following or anything like that. Just trying to make the perfect
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shape and having it explode and getting extremely discouraged
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and eventually figuring out the right way with some research.
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But why? Why make your own at?
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That stage, I'm not sure it's easy to explain, but I think a
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lot of people that are listening to this understand that it's
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just something that you feel like you really want to do.
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Yeah, yeah. There's something I think anyone
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who's carved about probably can understand that anyone who
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successfully have has carved on. Yeah.
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But yeah, a lot of those blowouts and frustrations, those
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occur for the history, for the historical replicas.
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Where are you getting your information?
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Just all over the place. Wherever I can, that's combed
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through everything I can possibly get my hands on.
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And are there museums in the US with some replicas or some
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originals? Originals, yeah.
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So you can get the measurements and you can guesstimate the
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wood, what it is, you know, some some woods easier to pick out
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than other. Oak is pretty easy to pick out.
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Conifers are pretty easy. But you don't.
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I'm not sure if it's a juniper or you or it's Hickory.
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Yeah, Hickory can be deceptive, I think.
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In what way? I think that like new Hickory
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boards are kind of easy to pick out what kind of wood it is.
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But I think as they age, when they're that old, I think ash
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and Hickory look pretty similar. Got it.
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So that's also a guess, I think with a lot of those bows.
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And is that do you run into that even in selecting your wood for
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carving like the identification sometimes is a challenge or is
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this just seeing some of those original bows and not being sure
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what kind of wood they are? Well, I mean, you know, it was
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documented by historians what kind of wood they used and that
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was in that area. You know, there's, there's been
19:49
some stakes that I've noticed that, you know, maybe when they
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talk about Lodge Pope Pine, you know, they might mean Juniper
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crossed in the same area. You know, other other little
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mistakes that you know, historians wrote about way back,
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oh, well, over 100 years ago when they were studying.
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Just what's documented that they used or just what's there?
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If it's if it's unsure what's what's growing in that area?
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What's native to that area? Do you have a word that's your
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favorite to work with? Yep.
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What is it? Juniper.
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OK, with Juniper, it needs to be back to a senior.
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And that's is that also called Eastern cedar?
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Yeah, Eastern red cedar is juniper is virginius and that's
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yeah, that is a juniper. It has to be back to a senior it
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it doesn't. Oh, OK.
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I'm sorry. I thought you said that it I
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think it does. I don't make them unbacked.
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You can shoot them for a while, but if they dry out too much,
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they'll explode. They are one of the best
20:54
compression woods in the world pretty much, but they're very
20:59
weak in tension. So with the backing to take up
21:02
all that tension you have, it's an extremely lightweight wood
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too, so it's very efficient. That's it's what I use for my my
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most successful flight bows that that and Hickory.
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So it's the physical weight is very light kind of concentrate
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the sinew to the middle of the back.
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Most of it because of how light it is as the sinew dries, it
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takes on a tremendous amount of reflex and just makes a
21:32
extremely fast and efficient bow.
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See why it was used so much. And then I would say the other
21:39
one is incense cedar, which was used by pretty much only
21:46
documented by the, the Miwok Indians of California.
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And Ishi mentioned it also another California native that
21:57
almost all boyers know about. And it's, it's pretty similar to
22:02
juniper. I think the the trunks can be
22:06
quite weak. So I look for branches of those.
22:09
So it's a lot heavier and also an incredible compression wood.
22:15
Incense cedar. Terrible attention would Yeah,
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it's it's not related to any other.
22:20
Cedar. Is it even?
22:22
Is it actually a cedar or that's just the name?
22:26
It is a cedar, but the only other Cedars of its kind are
22:32
they grow in like I think Southeast Asia and somewhere in
22:35
Europe. What is that 1 Calacindrus
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Deterrence Is a the Latin name if I'm not butchering that.
22:46
And in general, I guess the eastern cedar and then the
22:49
incense cedar. But in general, Cedars aren't
22:51
very good bow woods are they like the red cedar and yellow
22:54
cedar? The Northwest.
22:55
Yeah, Eastern red cedar is just not a cedar either.
22:58
It's just a juniper. And in Utah people call juniper
23:01
cedar. Also, I've I've had that
23:04
argument with people when I say I use incense cedar, they say
23:07
no, you're using juniper. Like no, this one is a cedar,
23:11
it's just not like the other Cedars.
23:13
So juniper is not an actual cedar.
23:15
Juniper is not a cedar. Got it.
23:18
So like Pacific red and yellow Cedars can't be used, can they?
23:23
If you make them wide and long enough, you can make a bow out
23:26
of them. You can make a bow out of
23:27
anything, Right. And it's.
23:30
Yeah, the same with other I, yeah, I really get into, you
23:33
know, different kinds of, of wood used by the natives 'cause,
23:38
you know, I'm making a Mojave set right now too.
23:41
And there wasn't there in, you know, southern, southern
23:45
Arizona, far like southeastern California.
23:50
Not much grows there, but Mesquite is there, which is not
23:54
a terrible bow wood, but they preferred Willow.
23:56
And then that's, that's actually doing a little research on that.
24:01
It's desert Willow and it's not a true Willow.
24:04
It's in the Catalpa family and so they preferred it over
24:08
Mesquite and I'm pretty sure I found a piece of that.
24:12
So I'm going to try that out with the the Mojave set that I'm
24:15
making for this. This guy in Germany also?
24:21
How do you know which way to shape a bow?
24:24
Is that just from years and years of experience like flat
24:27
bow versus AD section bow versus I don't know, I don't know
24:31
enough of them so. Yeah.
24:32
I mean, for the replicas I'm making, whatever they used, a
24:35
lot of those are lenticular, so. What is that?
24:41
What's that? What does lenticular mean?
24:43
Like an Oval, so more crowned on the back and belly.
24:47
And if it's sinew back, you know, the crowned back doesn't
24:50
matter at all because like I said, sinew takes up all the
24:54
tension that you could ever, you know, worry about.
24:58
But then on the belly, when it's when it's rounded on the belly,
25:04
most of the work is being done by the lowest, lowest part of
25:07
the belly, the center of the belly.
25:09
It's not evenly distributed like a flat bow.
25:12
So it has to put up with a little bit more, a little bit
25:18
more work when it's round instead of flat.
25:22
And it's, you know, like a lot of a lot of most hardwoods are
25:28
stronger in tension and compression.
25:31
And so a rounded back on those is fine from what I've heard.
25:37
Besides Cherry. Cherry's not.
25:41
So I have you, I've written down that we're making when I'm there
25:44
in Ishi style singing backed Juniper Bell, right?
25:50
What is that? I mean, you've kind of just
25:52
explained a bit of it, but what's unique about that one?
25:57
Not much unique about it. It's just it's just a perfect
26:00
design. It's pretty similar to, I mean,
26:03
the the true home of guard bows, you know, were they had a
26:09
narrowed handle and then widest just above the handle, just
26:13
basic pyramid to really narrow tips and issues were like that.
26:18
His tips weren't as narrow as the the ones I make some exact
26:23
replicas of that, but the ones you know my favorite flight
26:26
shooting bows are near replicas of his with narrow tips for for
26:32
less mass for a faster delivery to the arrow.
26:36
But it's juniper was his preferred.
26:41
He also used you and instant cedar.
26:44
Like I say, and it's just what I described with the wood, but the
26:52
the simulators are put on one week apart and if you want a
26:57
little bit more out of it, you can string the boat backwards
27:00
and then also let the sinew. You know, add 3 or so layers 3
27:05
weeks apart and each layer will draw the bow further and further
27:11
up into more of a reflex, right? How do we do that in the amount
27:15
of time that we have? I've already started on one, so
27:19
OK, Yeah. And then we can start on a new
27:24
one to get the general shape and everything.
27:26
Got it. OK, Yeah.
27:28
And who's Azizhiga? I've never heard.
27:31
Of him, he was the last wild Indian in California, still
27:38
still living, hiding from from everyone until the 20s I believe
27:46
when he was just got discovered. You know, whatever, whatever
27:50
that means. The twenty 1920s.
27:52
Yeah, 1920s OK And then he was taken to the Berkeley Museum and
27:58
studied basically it became a a sideshow there, you know, make
28:04
all of his chip points and make arrows and shoot him and make
28:07
all his basketry. And he just became a a study and
28:12
he was a who was it? That was the Howard Hill days
28:18
back then, right? I've got the names right.
28:21
I. Don't know.
28:22
Yeah. He speaks of them too.
28:25
Is a lot of our information from historical bows of that time
28:29
come from him? Yes, OK, actually working
28:35
historical bows being it's still being made because they kind of
28:39
went went to the wayside as the firearms got better and better.
28:44
And, and then in California, you know, the, the, the gold mining
28:50
boom, just that was one of the worst atrocities as far as the
28:56
treatment of Native Americans goes.
28:58
I think that might take the cake.
28:59
The, the California eradication of everyone there.
29:04
And, you know, it was very lucky previous people that went there.
29:09
There was, I mean, I didn't know about this until, you know, 5 or
29:15
10 years ago, there was a, a big Russian settlement in up and
29:22
down the, the West Coast initially for Otter.
29:26
And then they, they've set up military bases in around the Bay
29:30
Area and they eventually abandoned it.
29:34
But that was, you know, between 1800 and 1840, they had
29:39
collected hundreds of bows and arrows and also documented like
29:45
what was going on there. So it's a it's a real look at
29:50
absolute peak of that technology.
29:53
You know, I would say 1800 is before before most of the
29:58
disease and everything got at least to California.
30:01
It's when they had been making their bows for, you know, 1500
30:06
years or so and had just perfected this and you can see
30:10
it. And a lot of them are in Russia,
30:14
you know, have some of that have worked without in California.
30:16
Who's gone to see all of them and there's still there's still
30:20
quite a few of these mostly Miwok Indian bows around is.
30:25
There a museum in Russia or multiple ones?
30:29
Yeah, I, I, I don't want to try to pronounce the name of that
30:32
museum, but they're still there. And there's a, you know, a
30:37
historian, Craig Bates, and he went out there with some other
30:43
scholars to study everything that was out there, everything
30:45
they could do is this one that they had.
30:48
One museum with hundreds of bows.
30:51
Yeah, there's others distributed in, in certain places in Europe.
30:56
And then there's quite a few Miwok bows and the Smithsonian
31:00
and spread here and there. OK, I need to find more out
31:05
about these things. Yeah, and that's that's one
31:08
thing. I've worked with a nonprofit.
31:12
It's the Miwok Indian Heritage Foundation, a guy named Glenn
31:16
Villa. It's his, it's his nonprofit.
31:19
And I go out there every year to just try to teach back to the
31:24
Meiwak people or, you know, whatever surrounding tribes want
31:26
to come for the presentation. Just trying to return that
31:30
information to them. Because as far as documented
31:35
Native American bows and arrows, there's more written and more
31:40
examples of those than anything else.
31:43
Any other peoples in in the Americas, including, you know,
31:48
they're, they had a form of flight shooting in the distances
31:52
that they made. And so I've been working on a
31:54
slightly modified incense Cedar Juniper New York Bowl that I can
32:00
hopefully shoot over over 350 yards with their equipment.
32:05
So. And you said they've been making
32:09
these for 1500 years, but how long have been have bows in
32:13
North America that we know of been made?
32:19
It's up for a little bit of debate there.
32:22
Some people claim that, you know, as as early as 100 AD, but
32:28
it's hard to find anything more than something that looks more
32:31
like a bow drill. And it's generally accepted that
32:35
they're pretty much from coast to coast by 500 AD.
32:40
And before that, you know, maybe, maybe here and there.
32:44
But they just, they hadn't, I mean, the theory I think is
32:48
they, they hadn't made them good enough to replace the atlatl and
32:53
they hadn't had use for them except for maybe shooting small
32:57
game rodents. And then they finally started
33:00
making more powerful pose and then just became widespread.
33:03
It's it's really hasn't been around for very long.
33:06
You know, when you think about how long they've been in Europe
33:09
and I heard your your podcast with Maylin Olive.
33:13
Oh yeah? Well, that was quick.
33:15
I think it was just published yesterday.
33:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were talking about all
33:20
of those, which is? Yeah, a couple of those are some
33:23
of the earliest bows. Really.
33:24
Yeah, they found one in Spain and Israel.
33:27
No way. Yeah, like 7-6 and 7000 years
33:30
old so. Wow.
33:33
Yeah. And then yeah, with with the new
33:35
World, besides Alaska, I guess in far northern Canada,
33:40
apparently bow and arrow technology existed there
33:44
thousands of years ago. I can't remember the exact
33:48
numbers, but. In the in the Arctic.
33:50
In the Arctic and their theory was that it's, it's such a harsh
33:55
terrain that maybe they had a, a bad spell which completely
34:00
annihilated like all of that technology all together, you
34:05
know, took down entire villages and then it, it returned there a
34:09
couple thousand years later or so and it was not in between.
34:13
So I don't. I don't think that really
34:16
counts, but that is. And then where is the oldest
34:20
evidence? Is that in Europe, Asia.
34:23
I'm just guessing. Yeah, what is the oldest bow of
34:27
the the old home of guard bows. You know, the $7000 or so.
34:34
Sorry, 7000 years patted. Oh, it's quite old.
34:39
I'd have to look up the oldest poem in the world.
34:41
I I think they're, I think it's in France, they're cave
34:44
paintings with Archers on those that are dated like 8 + 1000
34:50
years ago. Yeah.
34:51
So it's fascinating. And yeah, like, the technology
34:56
really hasn't changed that much, has it?
34:58
Like what you're doing is carving bows the way they've
35:01
been carved for hundreds and potentially, like with the Home
35:04
Guard bow, thousands of years. Yeah, and the Home Guard bow is
35:08
another one. You know, that's a, that's a
35:10
contestant for a flight shooting bow.
35:12
They're so extremely efficient. It's just it's perfect constant,
35:17
most of the bending near the handle where it's where it's the
35:20
widest and then tapers to extremely narrow tips so there's
35:24
no drag on the tips, nothing to slow anything down when the
35:27
strength is released. And that's from Northern Europe,
35:30
Yeah, yeah. Anywhere in particular?
35:35
It's too too hard to say I guess.
35:36
Probably. Is it Is it Denmark?
35:41
Sounds like a Danish. I think it's a Danish name.
35:44
Yeah, I mean, I don't, yeah, of course, hold me to anything that
35:48
I might be butchering amateur hours here.
35:50
But I think I think Denmark was where the first home of guard
35:53
bows were found and. What kind of wood for those?
35:58
They were Elm and then you didn't spread up there till just
36:04
a couple thousand years ago, I guess.
36:07
And it was planted up there and used for bows, but it didn't
36:11
exist. And Elm was the the wood that
36:13
was used for that. So did the uses of bows in part
36:19
determine the shape and size or was it more the wood that
36:25
determine the shape and size or combination?
36:28
Absolutely. The the uses and there's been
36:33
people point out that the the horse bows on the planes were
36:37
very short for handling on horseback.
36:39
But yeah, it makes sense. Then you go further to the West
36:42
and they're just as short. Things and they weren't.
36:45
It wasn't mounted archery for those.
36:47
No, there's no mounted archery there, just ease of travel.
36:51
And then just the way they developed their archery and
36:54
shooting. I think, you know, a 20 inch
36:58
draw, 2022 inch draw with the amount of skill that someone
37:03
develops when they start shooting those bows when they
37:06
before they can walk, you know, and then you know, they're, they
37:10
actually are in the wild. So most people can't fathom, you
37:14
know, that they had no problem getting 5 or 10 yards away from
37:18
any kind of deer to shoot with what they knew about, you know,
37:21
where they where they passed and everything.
37:24
So you think it was mostly the use that determine the shape and
37:29
style? I mean, I just, I just second
37:31
guessed myself with what I said. I think there's plenty of of of
37:36
wood and stays long enough for for bigger, bigger bows.
37:40
That can't be an argument. I'm not not really sure why they
37:44
they chose the, you know, most of the West chose the shorter
37:48
bows, whereas, you know, of course the East Coast of the of
37:53
the United States, the Americas, they had longer bows, but.
37:57
And why is that? Don't know.
38:02
I can't tell you. They did have spots, quite a
38:04
variety of hardwood. Right.
38:06
And so then like the English Longbow, very different from a
38:11
flat bow. Why did that shape come about
38:14
with with English U? Is that partly because of the
38:18
tree or? With English UI actually heard
38:22
it mentioned one time that it was so they could get as many
38:27
bows as they could out of the wood that they had, which is why
38:31
they're English long bows are fairly narrow.
38:34
So you can cut, you know, you want to get as many stays as you
38:38
can out of something that's still, you know, it's long
38:41
enough and powerful enough. You know, there's there was the
38:45
perfect weapon right there. I know you're a big fan of
38:47
those. And you've, I don't know if
38:49
you've ever seen the footage of comparing those with, you know,
38:52
the 50 to 100 hours of time on the Asiatic horn bows, comparing
38:58
the shooting. You know, of course the horn
39:00
bows are lighter. The English bows are huge, and
39:03
they both shoot almost the same. Really.
39:05
Yeah. And so back with the, you were
39:08
talking about the the flight shooting, are there categories
39:12
for different types of bows, different lengths of bows or is
39:15
it? Yeah, OK.
39:17
There's plenty categories, you can go there with a crossbow or
39:19
a compound, but then they have a primitive class too which is.
39:25
But does the primitive class get broken down in the different
39:27
styles? Yep, there's just a self bow,
39:34
just one piece of wood. There's a simple composite which
39:37
is either 2 materials, or you know, it could be just a
39:42
sinewback wood and then a complex composite which is as
39:45
many materials as you want to put in there, but they often
39:48
made with all natural materials. The string has to be natural
39:52
material, nothing synthetic. The arrows are of course all
39:57
wood. You can use homemade paper if
39:59
you want for the feathers. Some people do or just very much
40:03
cut down feathers, but it's 100% natural materials for all those
40:07
categories. OK, what kind of string material
40:11
do you use when you make string? I used to go out there with
40:14
sinew and couldn't quite, you know, contend.
40:17
And pretty much everybody uses linen for their primitive
40:22
strings. It's got the least amount of
40:25
stretch. They break a lot for how small
40:28
you need to make the string. So if you don't have a durable
40:31
bow, you could get an explosion after you release your your
40:34
arrow. But my yeah.
40:37
Explosion of the string or the bow.
40:39
Bow so if you if you have a bow, you know if I'm if I'm using a
40:44
Juniper bow with 10 inches of reflex when it's on strung and
40:49
I'm releasing 180 grain arrow and the string breaks as soon as
40:58
it tensions, as soon as it returns to the strong position
41:02
depending on how easily it breaks, it can all that power is
41:06
just delivered straight into the reflex so the bow can.
41:09
Just so how is it through the marvels of physics that you can
41:16
shoot? I think we were talking about
41:18
this when you were here and we were shooting.
41:20
As long as you have an arrow in the bow, you can shoot it and
41:24
all of the force goes into the arrow.
41:26
But if you don't have the arrow, all of the force basically goes
41:29
back into the bow. So how is it?
41:32
Like what is that and how small of a thing could you shoot?
41:35
How small or light of an arrow could you shoot and still have
41:38
it receive all of the force? I'm fascinated by it because I
41:41
always explain to people when I'm teaching, like don't dry
41:43
fire. But I don't.
41:45
Fully understand how like that arrow can be the recipient of
41:50
100 lbs of force on a bow. Yeah, that's the whole thing
41:55
with flight is seeing what you can get away with with dry fire
42:02
speed. And I don't think there is
42:07
anything light enough that won't take that really.
42:13
I've never, never seen a bow explode.
42:16
That's even shooting 150 Grand Arrow without a string breaking
42:22
or right. Something going wrong?
42:24
Yeah. But if you did that same thing
42:26
without an arrow, there's a good chance the bow would explode.
42:29
Yeah. So, and how much?
42:32
How much? What's 150 grain Arrow away?
42:37
Let's. See, I translate that 150 grain.
42:42
And what does that mean? A grain?
42:45
The grain, yeah. It's just a unit of measurement,
42:48
like a carrot, a grain gram, and.
42:52
So the 150 grains are referring to the weight of the components
42:55
that are attached to the front of the arrow shaft, such as the
43:00
insert that holds the broad head and or the broad head itself.
43:07
So is that like the air that's more the arrow tip determines
43:11
than the grains are a unit away commonly used in artery.
43:19
Total arrow weight including shaft, fletching and all front
43:22
end components is typically between 400 and 500 grains for
43:25
many bones, right? So typical arrow is 500 grains.
43:30
So this is quite light. Yeah, a grain is like 15.5, a
43:39
gram is 15.5 grains, I think. OK, so this is basically 10
43:43
grams. Yeah.
43:45
OK. So that's light and that's,
43:48
yeah, that's that's crazy. And that is somehow, through
43:54
physics, enough to receive all of that force and direct it away
43:57
from the bow. It is.
43:58
And then if you sometimes if you see the Super slow motion video
44:02
of a flight arrow being released, you know, some of
44:05
these may be like a 35 LB spine just in the middle, 'cause
44:11
they're all barreled, of course, being shot out of a maybe a 70
44:17
LB bow. And so the hysteris and
44:20
everything like after it, after it leaves the bow, it just
44:23
wobbles like crazy. And you know, if you get, if you
44:26
have the arrow tuned in correctly, it will straighten
44:30
out and fly extremely far if you try to take it too far.
44:34
You know, I, I had one time I couldn't find my last arrow
44:38
anywhere. I thought, you know, maybe it,
44:41
maybe it was my best shot ever, but I knew that there was there
44:44
was limits on how far it would be.
44:46
And turning around and coming back, it was it was about 40
44:50
yards from where I released the arrow facing in my direction.
44:55
So it whipped around so much it turned around in the air and
44:58
came back like a boomerang. How?
45:02
Yeah, God. Do you know how?
45:06
With how much bend how how poorly tuned it was for the bow,
45:10
I think I was just like shooting like a 68 LB bow and you know
45:14
this. This should have been shot with
45:16
a less than £50. Bow Was this lying there or was
45:20
it stuck in the ground? I was stuck in the ground.
45:23
Really. Like looked like someone been
45:25
shooting from the other side at us.
45:28
Weird. Yeah.
45:30
And now there is one more category too.
45:32
It's it's much more practical. There's a broadhead category and
45:35
all the arrows have to be at least 150 grains and they all
45:39
have to have a 5, like 5 sixth of an inch, like basically an
45:45
inch wide broadhead on the front to be legal.
45:49
And that tests really, you know, the practicality of like how
45:54
good of a hunting bow it is. I think it's a better test for
45:57
most people because no, nobody's, it's just a small
46:01
little group of flight shooting nerds out there.
46:04
You know, nobody really cares about that except for flight
46:06
shooters, but they do care about, you know, being able to
46:10
shoot, being able to get a record with an actual hunting
46:14
arrow 'cause that's showing that it's a good bow.
46:17
And with the 2 records I have, I have it, one with a 68 LB
46:24
Hickory bow and the other with a 70 LB juniper bow or roughly the
46:31
same. And they have both the Flight
46:33
and Broadhead records for that under £70.
46:38
How far? And simple composite.
46:41
Let me get this right that might ask me this so.
46:51
And I understand that it is kind of a niche thing.
46:53
And yet I can't tell you how many people I teach archery ask
46:57
this question. How far can you shoot one of
46:59
these things people always want to know.
47:01
Right. Yeah, I know for regular flight
47:04
it's close to 370 yards and for Broadhead, basically around 250
47:15
yards roughly. OK.
47:17
Which is it's, yeah, pretty good for something with a big sail on
47:21
the front. Right.
47:24
And then you said 600 yards for the horn bows.
47:26
Is that like the distance record for?
47:30
Shooting. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's
47:34
pretty amazing. And those, those guys, you know,
47:37
this is this crew of northern Europeans that come out for
47:40
that. I was talking about it.
47:41
That's all they do. They do flight and they travel
47:43
the world for it. Really.
47:45
And you guys do this on the salt flat?
47:47
Yep, it's convenient for me. Yeah, it is.
47:49
It's a less, less than two hour drive.
47:51
Yeah, 274 yards for the Broadhead.
47:57
So what would back to the English Longbow?
48:01
I guess it is one of my favourites.
48:02
How far could they shoot one of those things?
48:05
Back in the day. Or can we still shoot them?
48:07
If you've got a second, I'll tell you that right now, because
48:10
those are on here for the record too.
48:12
All right, English Longbow. And they do have to abide by all
48:18
the true long board Longbow standards as far as shape and
48:23
everything. Here's one Yosef, a Hungarian,
48:28
and this is for flight and it's unlimited, so this was probably
48:34
upwards of £100. He was 451 yards with my old
48:38
flight arrow and let me see if I can find.
48:43
Crazy. Yeah, there are a few.
48:46
Categories here. So so so where was the British
48:50
like? Were there Archer shooting that
48:53
far at their enemies like 400 plus yards or is this just?
48:58
Absolutely not. They had big, heavy arrows with,
49:01
you know, the tiny little bodkin points.
49:04
These are. I mean, that's one of the
49:05
reasons why the Native Americans, you know, I mean, I
49:09
think they had some powerful Buffalo bows, but they didn't
49:12
have any reason to make a bow over 50 lbs for what they were
49:14
doing because we didn't have armor over here, right?
49:17
And there are some examples, you know, of like slatted wood
49:20
armor, you know, Northern California, but I mean all the,
49:27
you know, throughout Asia and throughout Europe, you know, all
49:30
those upwards of £100 bows with the the tiny little arrows that
49:34
were just meant to penetrate heavy armor.
49:39
And so, yeah, they're, I'm sure under under 200 yards there,
49:46
even 100 plus # bows. It's it's just about delivering
49:51
just serious force there with a heavy arrow.
49:54
You know, the heavier the arrow, the more penetration it's
49:56
delivering. And so like the flight shooting,
50:00
that's just something that because it's so close to you
50:02
geographically, you got into or was there something else that
50:05
got you into it? Yeah, and certain people that
50:08
you know, through the online forums, let's say Steve Gardner
50:12
got me into it a bit. He's one of my favourite
50:16
followers. He he wrote.
50:18
What was it? The mass principle and
50:22
traditional bow is Barber Bible 4, which is just.
50:26
I mean, do you know about that? I, I don't have #4 No, I have.
50:32
It just it just goes to explain you know you're making with
50:37
different weight of bows, you adjust exactly, you know the
50:42
shape of the bow to get the same performance out of the bow.
50:46
So if you're using a, a Poplar, a weak Poplar wood or something
50:52
or Tulip, I guess it is, it's going to be really wide.
50:56
And then as you go all the way up Osage and then eBay, you
51:00
know, you can get make a similar, similar bow out of out
51:03
of eBay wood. It's extremely narrow and they
51:07
all weigh about the same. Can you make a self bow out of
51:10
eBay? Yeah, really.
51:13
Yeah, OK. I've only made like big, huge
51:18
round ones for replicas. But yeah, EPA is very heavy and
51:24
I would think it would be of, hey, where you are.
51:27
Yeah. The biggest fear is it drying
51:28
out here? How do you have a, you said a
51:32
big thick one. How do you do a big thick EPA?
51:34
Isn't that really heavy? It is really heavy.
51:39
And does it shoot? Yeah, I mean, it was.
51:42
Over 80 Or does it just look pretty?
51:44
Yeah, well over 80 lbs with some serious hand shock.
51:48
It is a it. It looks a lot like an English
51:51
longo. OK, so it's not E pay is not
51:53
ideal then for making? It's not no no, just replicating
51:57
like a rainforest bow for someone.
51:59
Right. I've been having a lot of
52:01
challenges finding like some original bow woods and materials
52:06
from Central America. Yeah, I imagine there's a lot of
52:11
really fast growing trees that don't seem like they'd be very
52:15
good. Yeah, and there's I from what
52:17
I've seen, Black palm was used a lot.
52:19
Yeah, being a grass, they just didn't last the test of time,
52:23
so. Yeah, I've got a black palm bow
52:25
here, so a Shipibo bow. My sister picked it up down in
52:30
South America. You could get a good buy those
52:33
and I think it'd be cool because you know it's building from what
52:38
you're what you're given in your location.
52:42
Yeah, I know. I with the E pay and of course
52:45
bamboo here. I know you can make some pretty
52:46
good bow combinations with E pay and bamboo, but I'm trying to
52:50
find just some wood. Well, actually what's down here,
52:53
and not here in abundance, but in Nicaragua as a lemon wood?
52:58
Yeah. It's the national, it's the
53:00
national tree in Nicaragua. Right.
53:02
You probably can't cut it too, right?
53:03
No, it's protected there and I don't know where to find it in
53:07
Costa Rica, it's. Protected because we almost
53:10
eradicated all the lemon wood trees from because it became
53:13
like a a popular bow wood back in the really early 1900s I
53:18
think. So when?
53:19
Before that, we. Say we like in the States.
53:22
Yeah, states in Europe and yeah, lemon wood became like the main
53:26
bow wood for a while. I know that happened with you.
53:29
What I didn't know that happened with lemon wood.
53:31
Yeah, that's to show a popular archery is.
53:35
Do you have any lemon wood bows? I don't.
53:37
Have you have you ever worked with it?
53:40
No. OK.
53:41
And here it goes by a bunch of different names like the Goma
53:44
and Saloma. And I just I ask people about
53:46
and most people I just get blank stares when I go like the I
53:51
don't have many options. I'll go to like lumber yards and
53:53
find out what they have and that's typically, well, I've
53:56
never come across that so. Yeah, what are the trees called
54:00
with the little thorns? Those are the picote.
54:04
How's that wood? I don't know.
54:07
It's too honestly, yeah. No, you can but and then there's
54:12
there's another tree called Saba which crosses with a petchote.
54:16
So that's a Saba. Petchote also has the thorns.
54:19
But the true petchote is like those spikes are insane.
54:23
But I don't know if it's ever used as a a lumber wood or a
54:27
building wood of any type. I just haven't explored enough
54:29
of the woods here. But most people just use teak or
54:33
our provincial tree guanacaste, which is supposed to be
54:36
protected, but it's seems to be a very loose protection.
54:41
And I think maybe guano caustic could work for a bow, but I
54:45
haven't tried that either. So after, after the project
54:49
quiver journey, when I get some experience carving bows with you
54:53
and the other greatest in the world, hopefully then I'll be
54:56
savvy enough to try some of these woods because right now I
54:58
would just butcher them. So I'm, yeah, I don't, I don't
55:03
have that level of confidence where I can take a tree from the
55:06
jungle and and figure out what shape and size and whatnot.
55:10
So. Right, but soon.
55:13
It's a lot of fun to make the the lesser respected wood bows
55:17
as long as the piece of wood is perfect I would say.
55:20
Right, Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm definitely going to because I
55:24
want to start teaching eventually.
55:27
I would like to do something just small bow carving
55:29
workshops. Yeah.
55:31
I teach the archery and a lot of people were like, can I make a
55:33
bow? Can I make a bow?
55:34
I'm like, yeah, eventually, but I wanted to do it.
55:37
So it's using the local resources here, finding local
55:41
wood. Yeah.
55:42
So I'll have to play around with that and see what I can find.
55:47
Do you teach at all, or are you mostly just carving rows for
55:51
clients? No, I've never done a class.
55:53
I've been asked by it, asked about it a few times.
55:57
I just, I've never put it together.
55:59
Yeah, just. Kind of thin.
56:03
I mean, I guess I should be a little more open to it, but like
56:07
I say, I like to switch it up a little bit with things I do just
56:12
so I so I don't ever get tired of this.
56:15
I love going out to the shop, you know, after I haven't been
56:17
able to do anything for a couple days and just fully immersing in
56:22
it. You know, it's I love it And
56:23
then but but you know, if I'm doing that Monday through
56:27
Friday, it just it just doesn't seem right to me.
56:31
I. Think yeah.
56:33
And it's, it's so immersive. Yeah, my kids always, whenever
56:37
we go back to our farm in British Columbia, that's like,
56:39
all right, Dad, we'll arrive and they're like, we'll see you in
56:42
two weeks or however long we're there.
56:44
Because I literally go to the barn and I carve from light
56:48
daylight. Actually, I go out way before
56:49
daylight and just start carving and I don't commence the way
56:51
after dark. I'm just fascinated by it.
56:55
Yeah, but you've got all that pent up and you from being down
56:58
in. Yeah, yeah, Topical paradise and
57:01
not being able to do it for so long, you know, I mean, yeah, if
57:04
I if. I'm also I'm very new to it as
57:06
well so it's still all fascinating.
57:08
Oh yeah, I'm, I'm still very into it.
57:11
I just, I think it's more the whole hermit aspect of the
57:15
thing. You know, I sit out there and
57:16
listen to podcasts and music all day and just getting very little
57:20
social interaction through work, you know, I mean, it's that's
57:24
why I went back to school, you know, just to do something
57:26
different later in life and. What's what are you doing in
57:29
school? Radiology tech.
57:33
X-ray tech. Really.
57:35
Yeah, it's very different and I'm 50 right now, but I, I don't
57:42
know, I just kind of got that idea in my head and then signed
57:45
up for a class and just started going to get, I haven't been to
57:51
school in 32 years. So you don't, you know, you
57:55
don't get any better at algebra. If you weren't very good at
58:00
algebra in high school and you have to take a statistics class
58:03
32 years later, you don't all of a sudden pick up that because
58:07
it's practical information you use every day.
58:09
But I just, yeah, just worked a lot harder.
58:12
I took up a lot of time. How far into that are you?
58:16
Not very far. I've got two more semesters of
58:22
biology and anatomy classes and then I can actually sign up for
58:25
the A2 year program. So wow, two kids and two-part
58:30
time jobs. Two kids 50% of the time and
58:32
two-part time jobs. It's I had to take my time with
58:35
this. Yeah.
58:36
If I can make it through it, I am you're.
58:39
Going to be X raying bows aren't you?
58:40
You're going to be putting the wood through the Can you see
58:43
anything with the X-ray of wood? Yeah, yeah, the interesting ones
58:47
with nails driven through them. Awesome.
58:52
Well thanks man. I really appreciate you taking
58:54
the time to do this because I was delayed getting on here.
58:58
I'm going to have to get off because I have a client very
59:00
soon. But I'm there in Salt Lake in, I
59:04
don't know, a couple weeks, 3 weeks maybe.
59:08
Really looking forward to that. And I'll have two bows under my
59:12
wings when I come to see you because both Corey and Waylon,
59:16
whose podcasts are both out, I'll be, I'll be seeing them
59:19
first and then coming to you really excited.
59:23
Yep, so am I. Thanks.
59:26
Trying to finish the downstairs bathroom before you guys get
59:29
here. Don't worry about us.
59:32
Can you tell the listeners where they can find out more about
59:34
you? Yeah, it's heartwoodbows.com.
59:39
I don't really do much. Yeah, I don't really do much on
59:41
Instagram or Facebook or anything.
59:43
I I have time to build but I don't have time to update much
59:46
stuff so. Right.
59:47
Oh, and actually, can you tell me how to pronounce your last
59:49
name? Because I've mentioned it in the
59:50
last two podcasts and I've probably butchered it.
59:53
It's all right. It's it's Leffler.
59:55
Leffler. OK, It's spelled Loffler.
59:57
So everyone calls me Loffler and I don't, I don't get offended at
1:00:00
all. So.
1:00:01
Where's what's the origin of that?
1:00:03
It's German, OK, so it's. Is it?
1:00:06
Is it like Lafleur? Is it the flower?
1:00:08
No, that's French, Yeah. I know that, but it's just like
1:00:11
some. Version of that, Yeah.
1:00:14
Leffler is the spoon. Spoon.
1:00:16
Yeah. Called wooden spoon.
1:00:20
Yeah. Do you ever carve wooden spoons?
1:00:22
Some Smith name or something? Yeah, have you ever carved
1:00:25
wooden spoons? I don't think I ever have carved
1:00:28
a wooden spoon. It's in your DNA man, you should
1:00:31
give it a try. I used.
1:00:32
A piece of a flat piece of wood when I'm camping before because
1:00:35
I don't have anything to do with, but that's about the
1:00:37
closest I've come to carving a spoon.
1:00:41
All right. Well, thank you, man.
1:00:44
I appreciate it. I look forward to seeing you.
1:00:47
Yeah. Thanks for listening to Project
1:00:58
Quiver on Salish Wolf. Follow our journey on Instagram
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