Latest / Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship / Bonus: Socially Confident Kids in a Screen-Filled World (Nina on "Your Child is Normal" with Dr. Jessica Hochman)

Transcript

Bonus: Socially Confident Kids in a Screen-Filled World (Nina on "Your Child is Normal" with Dr. Jessica Hochman) · Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Do Your Nina Conversations about friendship.
0:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I am your host, Nina Boutsin.
0:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been writing about friendship for over 10 years.
0:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to play for you today.
0:13
[SPEAKER_01]: An episode where I was the guest on such a good episode of You Are A Parents.
0:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Jessica Hockman does a podcast called Your Child Is Normal.
0:24
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a board certified pediatrician, podcaster, and mom of three, and she's been practicing at Oak Park, Pediatrics in California, alongside her father, for 15 years, who was also a pediatrician in the same community where she grew up.
0:37
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot more about Jessica.
0:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find out in the show notes, and I just enjoyed talking to her so much.
0:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish that I could have,
0:43
[SPEAKER_01]: had her just as a friend when my kids are a little, but I bet that would be annoying.
0:47
[SPEAKER_01]: With that said, she and I should talk about.
0:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I should have her on as my guess to find out how annoying that must be to have your friends constantly asking you about medical question.
0:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just trying to be a fellow parent in the episode on your child's normal, which I'm going to have right here on the feed.
1:02
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about friendship being one of the most important parts of childhood and yet there's just a truth that many kids struggle to make friends and especially in today's tech heavy world It's an issue and she and I talk about how we as parents can support our children's socialize what might be too much support, what might be not enough support
1:21
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no 100% right or wrong, but we just have a really honest conversation about it.
1:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Why I think being the hosting house is a good move if you can do it, and that doesn't mean having a big house.
1:33
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean having fancy stuff in your house.
1:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It just means actually getting to meet your kids friends and also giving the kids a place to hang out.
1:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk so much in this world about how teens kids all ages don't really have as much of a third place as they used to have back in the day.
1:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And you may be your house can be a third place, not all the time,
1:51
[SPEAKER_01]: We will get into something that comes up in this podcast, Dernina, a lot, which is, it's not going to be tipped for tat.
1:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to be you hosted and then the other parent hosted.
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You hosted the other parent hosted.
2:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It's great when that works out.
2:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't always.
2:04
[SPEAKER_01]: We get into all of that in the episode and we talk about how to help your kid.
2:08
[SPEAKER_01]: deal with conflict with their friends.
2:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And to quote Dr. Jessica, this episode is full of practical tips for helping your child feel more confident, connected, and socially capable.
2:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to Dr. Jessica for letting me play this episode of your child's normal on the Dear Nina feed.
2:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you will really love hearing Dr. Jessica as the hope she's wonderful.
2:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to your child's normal.
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Dr. Jessica Hoffman.
2:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And today, we're talking about a topic that's near and dear to my heart.
2:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Something that I believe is essential for healthy childhood and honestly, for adults too.
2:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is the topic of friendships.
2:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Friendship is a skill, kids need to learn and practice, just like anything else.
2:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And as parents, we actually play a big role in helping them build those social muscles.
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Joining me today is Friendship Expert Nina Badsin.
2:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Nina is the host of the Dear Nina Podcast, which I highly recommend.
2:57
[SPEAKER_00]: She's also a writer who's spent over a decade offering thoughtful, practical advice about friendships.
3:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So whether your child is struggling to make friends or just need the little encouragement to put themselves out there, this episode is full of insight and takeaways that you can use right away.
3:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And a big thank you to Nina for being here.
3:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely learned a lot from this conversation.
3:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And also before we get started, if you're enjoying your child's normal, please consider leading a five-star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts.
3:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It really helps to show grow and reach more parents like you.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Now let's get into it.
3:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Nina Bazin, I think the subject of friendship is so important.
3:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for being here.
3:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
3:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm my whole every moment of my work life is dedicated to this topic.
3:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm so glad to be here to talk to you.
3:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have a podcast that's totally dedicated to the subject of friendship, correct?
3:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And it came from an advice column that I had for about seven years about friendship.
3:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I realized the audience is really listening now.
3:53
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not reading as much.
3:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So in 2021, I started Deer Nina conversations about friendship.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And the early days, I really based it on the letters I was still getting.
4:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And I still get letters.
4:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I use those letters on my Substack newsletter that's called Conversations about friendship.
4:08
[SPEAKER_01]: The podcast is taken on a completely different life, although the themes are the same.
4:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really focused on adult friendships, sometimes I cover teens, but the truth is, all friendships skills are ageless and timeless.
4:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I used to have a parenting column.
4:23
[SPEAKER_01]: The friendship column came from the parenting column.
4:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote a parenting column for brainchild magazine for a few years, around that time I was hired to write a friendship advice column.
4:32
[SPEAKER_01]: not because I'm a therapist because I'm not, but because I've written a lot about friendship and I have a very practical take.
4:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a topic I've always cared about and then that turned into its own body of work.
4:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been talking about this subject for a long time.
4:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there something that you can pinpoint to why this has become your passion?
4:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I would say three things.
4:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll try to make a brief.
4:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Number one, and as pertinent to this episode, friendship was so important to my parents.
4:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I talked about it all the time.
4:56
[SPEAKER_01]: They modeled it, all the time.
4:57
[SPEAKER_01]: They always were involved in their own things.
5:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Book clubs and different things.
5:01
[SPEAKER_01]: My dad would shoot hoops with his buddies in our backyard.
5:04
[SPEAKER_01]: He played tennis.
5:05
[SPEAKER_01]: He played bridge.
5:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Both my friends played bridge in a couple's group.
5:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Friendship was a big deal and they talked about it and they modeled it and they left us with babysitters a lot and then I don't mean that no resentful kind of way I've really modeled our adult life after that although We're quite a bit more religiously observant than my parents were so I mean we're home on Friday nights no matter what we have friends over for Shabbat dinner But we go out on Saturday nights like I always had a babysitter when the kids were alone We went out every Saturday night and we mostly still do so that's one thing as my parents modeling it
5:34
[SPEAKER_01]: After high school, I was ghosted by my very best friend, and that really had an effect on me.
5:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That was before ghosting was a term.
5:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I would say the next thing was moving to Minneapolis as an adult, knowing zero people, I had never really had trouble making friends before.
5:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Just because I never moved as a kid, my mom just sold a house that I grew up in.
5:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That my father grew up in, I mean, we were in Chicago forever.
6:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I had times like we all do where I was left out, where people accused me, leaving them out, the regular stuff, but not real trouble.
6:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Moving to Minneapolis, I really had a hard time.
6:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then going through that piece of it is part of what I would write about sometimes in those early writing years.
6:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I ended up
6:17
[SPEAKER_01]: having other advice columns on different topics that advice voice just really fit with me and friendship is it's always been there.
6:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been there forever.
6:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this topic tremendously.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it can relate to you on many levels.
6:29
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're talking about your parents having friendships as such a big part of their life and I wonder if a lot of people listening can relate to that as well.
6:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe this shift away from having friends so involved in your life has to do with the new world in terms of social
6:46
[SPEAKER_00]: on the screens rather than getting together in person?
6:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I agree.
6:50
[SPEAKER_01]: The screens, the social media and I agree that's a huge difference that parents nowadays had from our parents.
6:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's another thing and I know you've covered this on your show too.
6:59
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people are very involved with their kids sports and that has replaced the social time.
7:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So of course you can't make a plan on a Saturday night because your kid might have a tournament and you're not going to get the tournament schedule until a day before.
7:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So how can you make a plan?
7:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is a mistake, but I also don't know exactly the way out of it for people.
7:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would just be aware of it.
7:19
[SPEAKER_01]: If your entire social life has been based on your kids' sports, I promise you, that you were going to be writing me an anonymous letter in 10 years.
7:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I get a lot of letters from people who are newly empty nesters.
7:30
[SPEAKER_01]: and they realize, oh wait, I don't have really any close friends.
7:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true, I think there's also something about that period of life where you're raising your children.
7:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's particularly difficult because you're so busy and consumed with your kids, whether it's sports, whether it's music, you know, whatever extra curricula that they're involved in, what I try to do with my friends is just to have some touch points.
7:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'll send them a text if I'm thinking about them or we'll try to schedule something in the future and you can probably comment on this more.
7:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's worth keeping up with your friendships,
7:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But some point we become empty nesters and you want to make sure that those relationships have in somewhat nurtured because I do want to make sure that we all have friends when that time comes.
8:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a big part of my audience, I think, are people who find themselves in a time of life where they want to be working on their friendships again.
8:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's okay if you're starting over at that time, but it would be nice if you've kept that social muscle exercised, you know, that you didn't just become friends of people who happened to be in your space, but that you actively seek people out that share your interests as an adult.
8:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, this is good modeling for the kids.
8:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
8:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I love your podcast topic because I think a lot of people didn't have that mild for them or they're not quite sure how to not only make friends but then keep friends.
8:41
[SPEAKER_00]: What's some basic advice that parents can give their kids if they're having trouble making friendships?
8:47
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're talking to your kids about friends, the best skill you could give them is to focus on what they can do, not what others have done for them.
8:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a life skill you were giving them.
8:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So when my kids were a little younger, I used to ask them, who did you talk to today?
9:02
[SPEAKER_01]: That who talked to you, not who invited you.
9:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Who did you invite to hang out with a recess?
9:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Like to really constantly remind them through life.
9:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is important for adults to remember.
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling you that it isn't always about what others did for you.
9:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Your social life is in your hands.
9:19
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want plans, you make plans.
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You do not wait for someone to invite you, whether you are 10 years old or 85 years old.
9:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to be busy, then you have to make yourself busy.
9:30
[SPEAKER_01]: If you wait for people to invite you, you could be waiting a long time, or the people that your most interested might not be the people that invite you to do things.
9:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Who are you interested in?
9:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Who is somebody that seems appealing to you?
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And why?
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel around them?
9:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I tell my kids all the time, and I tell my listeners, you should be friends with people you like, who you feel good around most of the time, but not who make you feel good.
9:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Because most people, that's putting too much power in their hands.
9:57
[SPEAKER_01]: People who you like, this chemistry, there is a thing called chemistry, and sometimes we can't explain it.
10:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You can tell when you're clicking with somebody, you know, you can tell right away if there's something about them that draws you to one another.
10:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's also this practical piece of, you can have great chemistry with somebody, and maybe you met them at a baseball tournament.
10:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry to keep thinking about sports, but I'm just thinking of kids and where kids hang out.
10:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But if that kid lives 45 minutes from you, and you're the parent, and you liked that kid as a parent, I would probably not invest in that friendship.
10:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So it sounds kind of harsh, but you can have the best chemistry in the world.
10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's not convenient and that's true for adults too, you can have just okay chemistry.
10:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it wasn't love at first sight friendship, but they live around the corner.
10:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You invest in that friendship as a kid or as the parent for the kid, that's a friendship worth investing in, because proximity actually is a huge factor in friendship of all ages.
10:48
[SPEAKER_01]: proximity.
10:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I really, really urge people to focus on hyper-local friendship, not just the 20-minute away friend.
10:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking walking to some spiking distance.
10:58
[SPEAKER_01]: That is how your kid will stay busy and social.
11:00
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how you will stay busy and social.
11:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, you as a parent can get out of it a little bit.
11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: When I think about my own childhood or my husband's childhood, our best friends were people that lived around the corner from us next door to us.
11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So I agree with you, living close to somebody really does matter.
11:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And then what I was saying earlier about being the initiator, if you could teach one skill to your kids about making friends, it is like I said to make plans and to not be scared to be the first to initiate and to be the first to initiate again and again and not to keep score.
11:31
[SPEAKER_01]: These are just basic skills, but they need to be taught, I think, our default as humans is to want people to do for us.
11:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, of course, it's so much easier if someone reaches out to you.
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a wonderful.
11:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are some people that are just magnets and everyone reaches out to them and they're lucky.
11:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Those people are exceptions.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people have to do the work.
11:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you can teach your kid that there's nothing wrong with them, that they always have to be the one to reach out.
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is.
11:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So, with my kids, sometimes they're scared to go up to somebody and start talking to them, so at home, we'll practice.
12:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about giving a compliment or saying something nice about someone that comes into your head.
12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I'll say whatever it is that you like about that person, say it out loud to them and see how they respond.
12:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, my nine-year-old, she's been working on this.
12:16
[SPEAKER_00]: She came home the other day and she said, Mommy, it worked.
12:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I told someone that I like their t-shirt.
12:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Next thing you know, they're off playing handball together.
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a piece of advice that I give into my kids.
12:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great advice for adults too, by the way.
12:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you start the conversation, you offer something and a compliment, so a wonderful way to do that.
12:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a generous thing to do, who wouldn't feel good about that.
12:35
[SPEAKER_01]: We've also world played a lot with the kids growing up.
12:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I said this on the episode, you just know this, but I think it's good for listeners to know that my kids are older than yours.
12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've won that's almost 21 at 18 when that's 16 and when that is 13.
12:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've been through a lot of the things you've been through and I have the college thing going on now, I have the one going to college, you know, eventually make it to take gap years.
12:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a whole thing.
12:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been through a lot of things where they have to make friends and be in new situations and we have done the role playing, they roll their eyes now at it.
13:05
[SPEAKER_01]: because I'll even do it sometimes though.
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, mom, stuff.
13:08
[SPEAKER_00]: The other big piece to this that I also talk about is asking people questions about themselves because I find that people really like talking about themselves and you know, you start to learn as you get older that when you talk about yourself, but actually, it feels boring to already know about myself.
13:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So I tell my kids the more you ask other people about themselves, that's how you learn.
13:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And it feels good to the other person that someone's showing an interest in them.
13:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a skill that I've tried to impress upon my younger kids that trying to learn about other people that that really makes a difference because I think for little or kids in particular they're more egocentric which is natural but that's a skill to learn to show interest in others.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a new book I'll talk by a professor at Harvard.
13:49
[SPEAKER_01]: She's from the business school.
13:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I think her name's Allison Brooks.
13:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And she talks about how one of the many lessons is about asking questions and how most people worry they're asking too many questions and the truth is it's very hard.
14:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they've done research on this.
14:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very hard to actually reach the threshold where you've asked too many questions that actually most people ask less questions than they think they are asking.
14:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't be afraid to ask questions.
14:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I do feel like we live in an age now where people are shy or maybe they don't want to seem like they're prying, I think people are so afraid to offend people these days, but I do think that if you take an interest in somebody, I think that's a real positive thing to do.
14:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's very noticeable when someone doesn't.
14:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's very easy to notice when you're out in a social setting and you're asking all the questions and then you leave that thing and you're like, I don't think they asked me one thing.
14:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It's noticeable.
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you want to be
14:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so these are good tips.
14:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So just to kind of summarize so far, so we've talked about making sure that you're the initiator.
14:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be afraid to go up to others and initiate the friendship.
14:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be afraid to compliment them.
14:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be afraid to ask them questions even more than you think.
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Just keep on asking and show an interest.
14:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I know this is a topic we could keep talking about all day, but any other big points that you think we could offer as tips to parents to talk to their kids about.
15:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Scheduling is the worst part of friend making for kids and adults, being an activity is a positive thing.
15:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason activities can be a positive thing is it takes the scheduling out of it.
15:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Now your kids going to see somebody and have a social experience even if it's while they're doing an activity because it's already on the schedule.
15:22
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, they have a tennis drill every Tuesdays and those might not be their best friends, but it is exercising a social muscle too because usually kids activities are a little more fun, there's some socialization in it, but things that are more group.
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not the worst thing to have some kind of extra curricular activity for your kid because it's something that they don't have to worry about week to week.
15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It is on the schedule.
15:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's happening.
15:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're saying that scheduling is a positive for children.
15:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm saying that scheduling social stuff is the hardest part about keeping and making friends.
15:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, making first and then keeping friends is because first of all, you have to rely on your parents a lot of times to make plans for you when you're younger.
16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very hard for adults to even make their own plans and adults just have a hard time with us.
16:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when something's just on the calendar outside of you having to make the schedule is already on there.
16:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Mondays is tennis group or whatever it is.
16:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You least know that your kids having that social time that day because it's out of your hands at this point.
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: You have decided it's on the family calendar and it's happening.
16:22
[SPEAKER_00]: These are great tips in terms of initiating friendships.
16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to maintaining friendships, do you have any general advice in that capacity?
16:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'm trying to decide if we're talking about the kids doing things themselves or how parents can help the kids.
16:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think since parents are the listeners, it's really how parents can help the kids.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: What I'm finding when I talk to parents, their kids just aren't as social anymore.
16:46
[SPEAKER_00]: They're at home more.
16:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's the pandemic.
16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's the phones or all of the above.
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of kids are having struggles.
16:53
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have that many friends.
16:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a lonely world out there.
16:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think what I'm trying to figure out is how can we parents help our kids push beyond that?
17:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, have a huge tip.
17:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I divide the weekend up into four social opportunities for kids.
17:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
17:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's how I see it and how it worked in my house.
17:12
[SPEAKER_01]: You could invite somebody over for our Friday night dinner.
17:15
[SPEAKER_01]: We always have Friday night dinner and the kids can have anyone they want and they just have to let me know by Thursday so I make enough food.
17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's one opportunity.
17:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Saturday Day is another opportunity for us religiously they would have to have someone over like we are not taking them anywhere but they can have anyone over any amount of kids over that's another opportunity Saturday night is like a separate unit of time and then Sunday Day.
17:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of my kids are more social than others and because I think having friends is so important I really pushed this a lot that you had to just fill one of those boxes.
17:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Not all for though.
17:46
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be a lot of pressure to tell a kid that they need to be busy all weekend.
17:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Friday nights with Saturday mornings, Saturday nights, Sunday's one of those four boxes you had to check one basically.
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would get off your case if you told me as a teenager in my house, if you're 14 years old and you say I need to write to the mall Sunday because I'm meeting my friend.
18:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
18:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I will get off your case the rest of the weekend or what are you doing Saturday night because I actually think that can make kids feel really bad if you're always like I'm thinking slightly older kids now, you know, maybe 12 or 13, 14.
18:15
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're always saying to your kid, do you have plans or have you reached out to someone?
18:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't pester them as long as they've told me I have this one plan.
18:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it's Thursday or Friday and I haven't heard about one plan for the weekend,
18:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, did you consider reaching out to someone so we're available Sunday to drive you somewhere if you want?
18:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I think parents have to help with us and remind and encourage in a positive way, encourage your kids to reach out and make plans.
18:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I talked about this at the beginning and it is really, really important.
18:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's low hanging fruit to do the online stuff.
18:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a little easier for parents too.
18:51
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have to drive their kids anywhere.
18:53
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to worry about their feeding everybody.
18:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But you gotta step it up a little bit.
18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to help your kids and you have to be willing to host.
19:00
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are willing to host and be the hosting house, your kids will be busy.
19:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And you have to have stuff to do at your house that is not just video games.
19:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had a wonderful guest on my podcast named Katherine Matrinko and she wrote a book called Childhood Unplugged.
19:13
[SPEAKER_01]: her kids are around your kids age.
19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It talks a lot about being the hosting house, having stuff for the kids to do outside the house.
19:21
[SPEAKER_01]: She has a couple of boys that may be around 15, 16.
19:23
[SPEAKER_01]: She has lifting equipment in the garage.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: She has stuff that the kids want to do.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: She has some sort of rope thing in the backyards and ropes course.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't do it all once.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, over the years, you kind of collect things and develop things, because it isn't really fair to the kids to say, get off your screen.
19:39
[SPEAKER_01]: if there's nothing for them to do.
19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is such an important point because you're right.
19:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I think for parents it's really important to recognize that we do have to step it up a little bit.
19:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm guilty of this myself.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a working mom.
19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I come home.
19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hang out with my kids, and I'm tired, but we have to.
19:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I think for our children, for their development, for their emotional well-being, it's so important to...
20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: make that effort to help them be with their friends.
20:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Because my kids, for example, they're not of driving age.
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have to be there to assist.
20:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're totally right.
20:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I appreciate you bringing up that perspective.
20:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would push it on your kids as early as you can.
20:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Like meaning you're going to have to deal with other parents yourself when they're younger.
20:21
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way around it.
20:22
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are going to delay your kids getting a phone, which I highly recommend,
20:26
[SPEAKER_01]: as a pediatrician, like as late as possible, but that does mean you're going to have to be involved a little bit.
20:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Once they are able to communicate on their own to encourage the kids to do it, you have to say the words, reach out to so and so.
20:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You had so much fun last time.
20:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you see if you want to come over and even with my young guys, because now I'm much more experienced.
20:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I will suggest to him a see if you can go over there.
20:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that seems like kind of rude, but I'll give weith had a kid a bunch of times.
20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of being around the bush or hoping that they'll bite back, just saying, hey, come to your house this time and he'll do it.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: He'll text a friend and say, can I come over?
20:59
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good lesson in friendship too.
21:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I think reciprocity means a lot and it holds a lot of weight because nobody wants to feel like they're doing all the work and doing all the inviting.
21:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels good to be asked back.
21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, oh, by the way.
21:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you're about to reciprocity.
21:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of my biggest topics that comes up for adults.
21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: reciprocity is important.
21:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So I said earlier to not keep score, to teach kids that reciprocity is not one for one.
21:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not I came to your house.
21:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I go to your house and then I go to my house again and then your house again.
21:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people just don't like to have friends over.
21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, maybe they're more introverted and they just don't have the need as much to have a friend.
21:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So unless someone reach out to them, they're probably not going to reach out.
21:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it's important to you and your family to have these social ties, you may just have to do a little more.
21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So it might be three to one.
21:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I still consider that reciprocal.
21:46
[SPEAKER_01]: They at least did the one for the three.
21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Or they answer back quickly.
21:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Or they're good listeners.
21:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And I agree with that.
21:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Doing this one to one are always disappointed in friendship.
21:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Kids and adults.
21:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I completely agree with that.
21:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I relate to that.
21:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I think.
21:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Friends are good for different reasons and I think what's so much healthier is to look to the good that they bring in your life So maybe they're a friend that has you over a lot for dinner, but maybe they're a friend that's a really good listener Maybe they're a friend that loves to go out.
22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going out friend to me friendships about the feeling Are you bringing joy to each other's life?
22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you adding something to each other's life?
22:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I hear from so many parents that they give up on the friendship for the kids because they, we say, well, we've had so much over five times they've never had my kid over.
22:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a mistake if your kid enjoys that kid.
22:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't enjoy that kid.
22:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we could probably stop inviting that kid over.
22:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But if your kid does, you are wrapping your kid of a friendship because you as the parent are upset that the other parent doesn't have your social skills, maybe.
22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Or has a lot on their plate, has an extra job, has more kids than you have.
22:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Has a kid who's some kind of travel athlete, and they truly love that you invite their kid over, but they're not home to have a supervisor kid.
22:55
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just a lot of unknowns.
22:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We get in the way of our kids friendships by putting our own sort of sensitivity
23:05
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think you're right.
23:06
[SPEAKER_00]: To me, the bottom line is, is this a healthy friendship for my child?
23:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And if the answer is yes, the rest doesn't matter to me.
23:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I like being the house where the kids come over because I like seeing what's happening.
23:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I like being part of my kids' life.
23:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also happy when my kids go to their friend's houses, but I agree with what you're saying earlier about how you want to make your house fun for the kids beyond just screens.
23:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is something I'm constantly working on.
23:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it really is.
23:31
[SPEAKER_01]: on the parents, if you don't want your kids making TikToks 24-7 when they're hanging with friends, it is not actually fair to say that you're a kid, if you have nothing to do in your house.
23:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I have stuff to do, or let them bite to the park.
23:43
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're never going to let them out of your sight, and then you also are saying to them in the same breath, get off TikTok.
23:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, what else is there to do around here?
23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you ever put your phone down?
23:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I sound very like, lecturing right now, but again, back to
23:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Katherine, she was quoting Cal Newport, who's on a lot of wonderful work on life off of a screen and really managing your screen life.
24:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And he had a expression, fix your analog life first.
24:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's so important that this is what we're talking about.
24:10
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want anyone to spend any time off of a screen, it will work better if the things that they have off of screen exist.
24:18
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why they do some extracurricular activities or adults too.
24:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You gotta have things to do, otherwise it's impossible to get off your phone.
24:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Your phone's become your social life.
24:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, if you all the sudden put it down, you're gonna be lonely if you haven't set up a system of life that exists off the phone.
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and this is also important role modeling for our own children, what I'm having difficulty with my kids is yes, I want to be a good role model for them and also when their friends come over what's tricky is their friends come over on phones and so this is something I'm trying to figure out how to navigate because I don't want to embarrass my kids and tell their friends, hey, do you mind in our home.
24:58
[SPEAKER_00]: We try not to look at phones, or I'm not sure if I should talk to their parents first.
25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't quite found the solution to this problem yet, but I have noticed that the last number of times my kids' friends have come over, they've been on their phones, and my kids feel bad when they see their friends on TikTok or on social media or distracted by their phone, because I think that you see someone else on a screen than you think, oh, I must not be that interesting, or what am I supposed to do right now?
25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me pick up a phone as well.
25:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
25:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I adults do it too.
25:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It's completely contagious.
25:28
[SPEAKER_00]: If it is so that's I don't know if you had to do with that with your kids and their friends, but yeah, no, I still don't have to deal with that.
25:35
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have phones on Friday nights and Saturdays in our house, but what helps with that is that feels like a rule outside of ourselves.
25:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So like sometimes the kids will tell their friends now because they are kids will be like, oh, you know, we don't have phones on Friday nights.
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: What they mean is in front of my parents.
25:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm, you know, who knows what my kids are doing behind closed doors, they're much older now.
25:55
[SPEAKER_01]: They have gotten the memo, my kids, and they, without embarrassment, give it over to their friends.
26:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there's no phones at the table Friday night.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: That only helps on a Friday or Saturday.
26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But at least you have some boundaries there.
26:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Just having 24 hours where kids can learn to be without digital devices, I think is really healthy.
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Every house really struggles with this.
26:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say, just your house, your rules.
26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: your house or rules.
26:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to say one thing I'm really proud of myself for is we just got back from a vacation with my sister's kids and my parents and my daughter she's 14.
26:27
[SPEAKER_00]: She's the oldest of all the cousins.
26:28
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nine cousins and she came on the trip and she did not bring her phone because we have a rule that there's no phones on trips.
26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it makes a difference because she's more interested in playing with her cousins or younger cousins.
26:39
[SPEAKER_01]: This is actually really amazing and you're so right about the cousin thing like we've seen this to I'm family trips the second and older cousin it's always older cousin right it's some point Transitions to getting a phone that cousin's gone that cousin is like not one of the kid cousins anymore It's really sad when she got a phone that was one of my fears and I told her I don't want you to be the teenager off in the corner Gone from the party so that is a rule that we made in our house.
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy that she's taking to it.
27:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So far so yeah
27:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, another question, do you think that the number of kids that are together matters?
27:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Meaning, I was always told as a kid be careful with the number three because someone's going to be left out.
27:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something that parents should think about when we're helping our kids make plans?
27:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really good question.
27:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I did an episode on White Lotus, and the people were so into the French of Triangle in that show for listeners who haven't seen it.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That was one of many big plot points that was in social media lots.
27:34
[SPEAKER_01]: These three adult women who were childhood friends, and you're watching there forever dynamic, kind of play out in my thesis there was three, actually, it's not a problem.
27:44
[SPEAKER_01]: No number is a problem.
27:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the people themselves.
27:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Three doesn't have to be a problem.
27:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be, but I actually think three sometimes is better than two because two really puts a lot of pressure on each person to bring a lot to the table.
27:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes having that third person to bounce things off of, lightens the load for everybody socially, but yeah, the numbers in friendship and kids really is an issue.
28:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Only in that kids really crave a group when they see other kids in a group.
28:12
[SPEAKER_01]: The issue really is more teaching them to be satisfied with a smaller number.
28:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Kids, is that it's okay, and not only okay, but research backs up that just having a few close friends as well you need.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, social media TV shows everything makes you want this group.
28:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyone has been in our group.
28:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've been in groups both as a kid as an adult knows that it's not always what it looks like.
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's helpful for kids to know.
28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a great reminder.
28:39
[SPEAKER_00]: My friend, Stacey Martinucci, she's a great friend of mine from medical school.
28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: She's now an OB-GYN in New Jersey, but she's a tell me her grandma gave her this great advice.
28:47
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, if you have more close friends and you can count on one hand, you have too many good friends.
28:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And I always think about that because I do think, nowadays, people think about how many followers do you have, how many friendships do you have, we're looking at big numbers and the big numbers aren't what matter.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It really is the quality.
29:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And that inner circle, that 3-5 really close friends that you might have, they change over time.
29:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's another really important message for kids and to model as adults, that it's totally normal for those inner people to swap in and out through time.
29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I agree my best friend the name is Greg.
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't really listen to this podcast, but he's someone I talked to all the time We've been really dear friends since I was 10 years old You know, we both had friends sort of come and go and he has a line Reason season life.
29:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, but the words I'm next up a little bit season reason or lifetime I think but I don't people say them very different ways, but yes
29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: not all friendships are meant to last forever.
29:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with their friendship.
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And the bitterness and hurt that I felt about the senior year in high school or that she was sort of a forever friend that goes to me, I've virtualized on my feelings on that since then.
29:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I was devastated at the time, of course.
30:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But I understand that was an adult that that didn't necessarily have anything to do with me or even if it did, that's okay.
30:11
[SPEAKER_01]: In an abrupt way, unfortunately, fast forward at something that was going to happen anyway.
30:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I just wasn't ready for it then, but she wasn't wrong that we weren't really the right match.
30:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That everything can last forever.
30:22
[SPEAKER_01]: We change as people.
30:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You can always make new friends.
30:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You're never too old.
30:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's never too late and it's healthy to allow new people into your life as you change.
30:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I agree that you can't have a bazillion close-close friends, but you can have a wide social network.
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's good for you.
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's healthy.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Another point that is helpful to talk to kids about is how to treat friends even if you don't think the friendships can last.
30:45
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, ghosting somebody, I don't think is very kind behavior.
30:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: What is some advice that you can give to adults for adults to talk to kids about in terms of how
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: if you feel like you've outgrown a friendship, how can somebody sort of move away from that friendship?
31:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It is so hard.
31:02
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those topics where there is not one right answer and there's really no great options.
31:07
[SPEAKER_01]: The textbook thing would be to have a direct conversation and kindly explain that.
31:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You feel you're moving into different directions.
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of their friendship experts talk about that.
31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree that would be wonderful.
31:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is very, very hard.
31:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if my friend had done that, for example, I would be just as hurt.
31:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, who wants to sit down and hear like the friendships over if you're really so sure it's done I mean, are you inviting an opportunity for that friend to give their plea for why it shouldn't be that is one way So I'm just telling you what's out there is that you can have a direct but gentle conversation to explain that you're not going to be as available You're not as interested you don't like be mean about it.
31:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You can make it about you your other priorities right now I don't think it would be any easier to hear as the recipient
31:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the old song breaking up as hard to do.
31:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It is like a breakup.
31:59
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a term called quiet quitting that kind of started in the workplace.
32:03
[SPEAKER_01]: We're maybe people just weren't putting as much of an effort into work.
32:07
[SPEAKER_01]: They worked less hours.
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: They kind of just did the least in their jobs.
32:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That expression is now morphed into social context and people when they talk about quiet quitting, they're talking about friendships a lot or dating.
32:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's somewhere between ghosting and the direct conversation.
32:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not abruptly not
32:23
[SPEAKER_01]: texting back, it's not texting back as often, it's not being as available.
32:28
[SPEAKER_01]: This is probably the most common way to distance yourself from a friend and it probably is the most natural and things don't have to be so black on white.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to be the best friends and then not friends at all.
32:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Can there be room in your life to see somebody sometimes?
32:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they're not the person that you want to have at your birthday dinner if you're only having four people.
32:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you hang out with them once in a while?
32:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you text back and forth once in a while?
32:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you send a funny meme once in a while?
32:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be this formal breakup all the time.
33:00
[SPEAKER_01]: That, I think, is the lesson that there is room in life
33:06
[SPEAKER_01]: and to allow people to be in your life in that in between gray, be comfortable with a little bit of gray.
33:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think most of us would probably prefer that on the receiving end.
33:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's still a little discussion with your kid of your kids do one who wants some distance.
33:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're the kid who's on the receiving end of someone who doesn't respond as quickly anymore, or doesn't invite you over as much anymore.
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think something like ghosting feels very hurtful because nobody wants to feel ignored, but I think if you completely respond back but maybe less frequently or maybe stop inviting them over as much, I think that it's helpful advice for kids.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: They've had friends where maybe they're not as excited about the friend or maybe the spark isn't quite there anymore and I think just pulling back a little bit is like you said feels better to me.
33:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I think burning bridges is something
33:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you go to school at this person, or you're on a team at this person, or I would really encourage the kids that they will probably be on the receiving end of something like this at some time, and just to keep a pleasant for everybody, I think one of the hardest friendship ending issues that happens with kids is usually this is a very good topic and important one I think real listeners, it's when the children of adults who are friends don't really have chemistry anymore.
34:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So you probably got together when you were young, the parents would get together, you wouldn't bite them over and you'd all be together.
34:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And as the kids get a little older, I think we see this usually around, you know, fourth grade, fifth grade social group sector form and maybe at school, your best friends kid is really in a different group.
34:37
[SPEAKER_01]: That's tough, but kids have to have the ability to choose their own friends.
34:43
[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot force a friendship.
34:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, you can ask your kid to be kind at a certain point.
34:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Missed maybe a controversial thing to say, I don't think it does kids any favor.
34:53
[SPEAKER_01]: If they're always invited because the parents are doing favors for each other.
34:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Really an issue, just like this is the kid who ends up being a sophomore in high school who doesn't have a homecoming group.
35:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do they not have a homecoming group because everything they've ever been invited to before was a favor to their mom.
35:09
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to release that kid earlier on so that kid can actually find true friends who they do have good chemistry with.
35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: friends who actually want them around, not just because the moms stood over them, while they were texting to say, you better invite so-and-so because otherwise, their moms would be so upset with me.
35:24
[SPEAKER_01]: This is where the quiet quitting comes in.
35:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the parents at some point need to have a slightly more direct conversation and say, we're going to be friends no matter what.
35:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a good point to bring up that, yes, it's sort of a bonus if our kids get along with our friends kids, but I think a healthier, more realistic perspective to help our kids forge strong friendships is to let them find them on their own and as you pointed out earlier, this is the part that I'm really going to take from this interview in my own life to really make sure that we are encouraging and fostering those friendships and making an effort as parents
36:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and give up for the message that it's in your hands, your social life is in your hands.
36:05
[SPEAKER_01]: You make the plans, you think about who do you like, who do you feel gut around and reach out to those people?
36:11
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's why it doesn't do a favor.
36:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you see what I'm saying like how it happens?
36:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It really, I think, damages the other kid.
36:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You think you're doing your friend a favor and adults are guilty of calling each other and saying, Oh, can you make sure someone says included in homecoming?
36:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I keep using homecoming because it's just thinking about a big group.
36:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, sure.
36:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we can do that for a ninth grade.
36:31
[SPEAKER_01]: But at what point are you going to make it okay for your kid to not be included so that they have the opportunity like they sometimes have to be set free so that they can be encouraged to find real friends now
36:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Kids inevitably will fight with their friends, they'll get into an argument.
36:47
[SPEAKER_00]: How should parents in your mind help our kids navigate through conflict?
36:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any general advice that we can offer our kids?
36:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it just to be a good listener?
36:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it to help our kids stand in their shoes?
36:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Are there some general tips and guidelines that you think about when it comes to conflict?
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's all things that adults need to do a better job as well.
37:06
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't actually know what anyone else is thinking.
37:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So the story we tell ourselves about what our friend is thinking is really just a story we're telling ourselves.
37:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like no one knows what we're thinking.
37:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I really would encourage your kid to give the other kid as much of a break as they give themselves, meaning we make mistakes.
37:25
[SPEAKER_01]: We all make mistakes, but we know why we made them.
37:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that we said something not that nice at lunch because we were hungry, and we'd got a really bad grade in our test the period before, and that's why we said something kind of nasty.
37:39
[SPEAKER_01]: What if we could give the next person as much of a break as we give ourselves?
37:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people deserve forgiveness.
37:44
[SPEAKER_01]: We all mess up.
37:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you're upset with a friend, it is good to express it, but not with assumptions.
37:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm saying, not to already assume that you know they did.
37:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Some things are worth letting go.
37:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like we're saying, people do things and it's not always personal.
37:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a repetitive thing.
38:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody's always nasty to you at lunch.
38:02
[SPEAKER_01]: and you don't know why they're picking on you.
38:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well now that's a different thing than they said something one time.
38:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I'm saying is help your kid know when to let something go, when to actually bring it up with eye statements, you know, not you are, but like I felt.
38:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And then listen, let them talk, give them the opportunity to gift when you give your friend as an adult or a child, the opportunity to explain themselves.
38:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It shows you care about the friendship, like I care about this friendship enough that instead of me sulking over here in the corner,
38:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to give you the opportunity to just hear me out and I'm going to hear you out.
38:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But you can't do that for every little thing.
38:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of getting along with people is allowing for some room for mistakes because you're going to want that room too.
38:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally grew with you, I think.
38:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, if you start to hear a pattern from your child that there's a particular friend where there's a repeating theme where maybe they're not nice or they're not acting kind.
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, maybe we don't have to encourage that friendship.
38:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But if they're generally a good friend to your child, I believe 100% in giving people grace.
39:02
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what's happening in someone's life, we don't know what's going on in someone's mind.
39:06
[SPEAKER_00]: They might interpret something that your child did in the wrong way.
39:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's such helpful life advice for all of us, quite frankly.
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You never know what it's like to stand in somebody else's shoes.
39:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the more we remember that, the more you forgive somebody, the easier everything becomes.
39:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:22
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
39:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't hold people to impossible standards.
39:24
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what it comes out of.
39:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Your kids aren't perfect either.
39:27
[SPEAKER_01]: We're advising our kids on friendship.
39:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we should remember that our kids are not perfect.
39:32
[SPEAKER_00]: We are not perfect.
39:33
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a lot of growing to do.
39:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I agree.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think sometimes for as parents who want to defend our kids all the way, but it's also important for us to recognize that improving is a good thing.
39:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Learning from life experiences is going to benefit them in the long run.
39:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay, so Nina, I've so enjoyed this conversation.
39:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I think your podcast is helping so many people.
39:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for the work that you're doing, getting advice about friendships with benefit all of us.
39:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So tell everybody where, where can we find you?
40:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So my podcast is called Dior Nina Conversations about friendship.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm on Instagram and TikTok at Dior Nina Friendship.
40:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the newsletter conversations about friendship on sub-tech.
40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Nina.
40:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been really a joy.
40:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
40:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.
40:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Your Child is Normal.
40:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five-star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it.
40:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow.
40:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You can also follow me on Instagram at Ask Dr. Jessica.