Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / King Arthur (2004) - Antoine Fuqua | Houselights #152: Wing of King Arthur

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King Arthur (2004) - Antoine Fuqua | Houselights #152: Wing of King Arthur · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

0:03
Welcome to the NED party. Hello everybody at home, and welcome to Houselights,
0:22
specifically Wing of King Arthur, where we're taking a look at an interpretation
0:28
of King Arthur from every single decade, starting in the seventies, sixties,
0:34
but the sixties started their sixties. Yes, and we're we're in the two
0:40
thousands now, and the director this week is Anton Antoine Fuquah, and we're
0:47
talking about two thousand and threes Tears of the Sun starring Bruce Willis. Oh
0:51
wait, wait, no, that's right, that's right, it's the it's
0:53
the it's the movie King Arthur in two thousand and four. I'm sorry,
0:57
I get those two movies contest all the time, maybe because they have the
1:00
exact same plot. But this week I am super excited to talk about this,
1:07
this iteration of King Arthur as we analyze this character from a different director's
1:11
lens. Iteration is a good word. We're gonna talk about that. But
1:17
yeah, what you just heard was the voices of my co hosts, Darren
1:22
Moser and John Mills. John, how are you doing tonight? And when
1:26
was the first time you saw this movie? This is the first time I
1:30
saw the movie. Just just very shortly before we recorded, is when I
1:34
wrapped up, and it's I'm actually very interested because this is we're going back,
1:41
and you know, we're going wing of King Arthur here. But what's
1:44
really interesting is, and I think this will be an interesting back and forth.
1:48
We have the last two of these movies now are not directed by Brits
1:53
so it's interesting how that could potentially speak to the universality of the Arthur legend
2:00
and how people approach it. But I'm also very interested to find out what
2:04
my good friend Darren thinks of things, because he and I were very much
2:08
simpotico last week. I wonder if we are this week as well. Yeah,
2:14
yeah, definitely don't I'm gonna go last. I'm just all I'm gonna
2:17
say it's gonna go last this week. But yeah, no, same for
2:22
me. This was the first time watching this movie. I literally watched the
2:27
last hour of it during lunch today fit it in. But yeah, I
2:31
was joking before we started recording. When I sat down to watch this,
2:36
I just kind of chuckled to myself, going, you'll be really funny if
2:38
it started with like an opening crawl of text explaining, oh, look,
2:44
there it is why am I kind of not surprised. And then they doubled
2:49
down and had the voiceover narration as well, so they're like, what's what
2:54
are two totally separate ways that we could combine to explain what we're doing?
3:00
Because this was uh interesting. It's in Roman times, okay, and I
3:13
didn't know that Arthur was a Roman. Yeah, that was really interesting.
3:20
I love how the crawl at the beginning says something like historians agree, and
3:24
then they list it, and then I'm just like, no, they don't,
3:29
No, they don't at all. Yeah, they put it in an
3:31
opening crawl, doesn't mean that I've had six historians agree that. You know,
3:38
we're making this up as we go along, all right. Now,
3:42
The thing is there are some wacky because because I think is I finally was
3:45
motivated to do a little reading, which, boy, that's just a sacrifice
3:50
I'm not usually willing to make for these shows. But it is interesting that.
3:53
I mean, obviously it's just a conceit to try to give it the
3:55
air of authenticity. It's like, oh no, no, we're telling you
3:59
the story of you know, it's no more or less real than we found
4:04
this footage from Montgomery College Film students in the woods and there's a witch.
4:10
It's a step above what Fargo did when they said that it was based on
4:13
a true story. Right, It's completely not true at all. Yeah,
4:16
But you know, as I was reading through, there are some historians or
4:24
authors at least who are now exploring that sort of I would say cable news
4:30
channel tactic of writing books with question marks at the end, so that it's
4:34
like, was Arthur really a space alien who rode the Lochness Monster? Question
4:40
mark? And it's like it just reminds me of this sort of thing of
4:44
I read a book recently called fourteen twenty one, and the whole thesis of
4:48
the book was that China had actually conquered the world before any European had ever
4:53
even tried to circumnavigate the globe. And like, as you read through it,
4:55
you're like, there's not a shred of evidence for this, Like,
4:58
what are you going on, dude? So I can forgetting in a point
5:01
where I can give the film more than the books for that that sort of
5:05
thing. I don't know why they would. I'm not a fan of using
5:11
both narration and a crawl. It's like pick one, stick with it,
5:15
pick one, or pick one or the other. Yeah. Absolutely, And
5:17
before we go get too deep down the rabbit hole, I do want to
5:21
talk about the director a little bit because Anton Fouqua his the first movie,
5:28
like he came from like finchery came from the music video Realm and that's how
5:31
he got his start. And then his first film was The Replacement Killers starting
5:36
call Young Fat, and that is a completely underrated movie. Like if you
5:42
guys, If if you guys or if the listeners haven't seen The Replacement Killers,
5:46
absolutely check it out. It's super nineties and it's awesome. But he
5:51
made his probably his most notable work, and what really solidified him as a
5:58
name is to the Ones Training Day starring Denzel and Ethan Hawk. I mean
6:02
that that movie was a step above. Yes, that movie is incredible,
6:08
and that is an example of it. When a director comes out with a
6:12
movie like that, you put his name on something and I go, Okay,
6:15
paying attention. I'm absolutely gonna I will at least give this guy a
6:19
chance to disappoint me, because he wowed me so much that one time,
6:25
it's earned him a pass for the rest of time. And the thing is
6:29
he's also tied to the Equalizer series, and that's that is that's some righteous
6:34
action going. Okay there. I haven't seen any of the Equalizer movies,
6:39
but I saw that. I saw the trailer for the third one. I
6:42
was like, maybe I should watch these. He also did the twenty sixteen
6:46
The Magnificent Seven, which for a remake of a very classic movie. My
6:51
wife and I watch it. We actually enjoyed it. It's a it's a
6:55
nice kind of fresh take. It is a fresh take. It is a
6:59
Raymonds. I'm just saying out of the bat, like they didn't well,
7:02
well, the thing is, though, I'm glad you bring that up,
7:05
because Magnificent Seven there's some real there's a vibe that's very similar where you feel
7:12
like there's a little bit too much oversight of Fuquah, Like there's a little
7:17
bit too much of sitting on his shoulder looking over his shoulder, because in
7:21
the notes about this, Fuquah hates he hated the experience of making this movie
7:28
because he felt that Disney was way too much in his business. Yeah,
7:31
and I think very much with The Magnificent Seven. There's so much stuff that's
7:36
legitimately. There are these really terrific moments and impulses, but it feels like
7:43
a producer came in, or an executive producer came in and said no,
7:46
no, no, we're cutting a ton out of this, which is kind
7:48
of odd because he was an executive producer for The Magnificent Seven. So I
7:54
don't know if he just had burned through his capital, like political capital or
7:59
how went down, but that one is I Yeah, looking through his list,
8:03
I'm like, oh, he's actually got quite the resume. Like you
8:07
said, Training Day was like that's the big whatever you think of some of
8:13
these movies, I mean, you recognize these movies like Shooter, Olympus has
8:16
Fallen, Sun, Equalizer Til Sun. So that was the joke that I
8:22
was making at the beginning, because here is the Okay, here, here
8:26
is the IMDb summary of Tears of the Sun for those of you who haven't
8:30
seen it. Yeah, sial Ops commander leads his team into the Nigerian jungle
8:35
in order to rescue a doctor who will only join them if they agree to
8:37
save seventy refugees too, otherwise known as King Arthur, but not in Roman
8:45
times, not in Roman times. Like it's it's very very similar, And
8:50
here I now King Arthur the movie King. The movie King Arthur was supposed
8:56
to be a Michael Bay film, and By actually developed it for five years
9:01
and then dropped out. And I can't remember exactly why he dropped out.
9:03
So Fuqual was brought in to the project. So this was not his baby.
9:07
This was not like he didn't you know, oversee the script. He
9:11
didn't like he was not one of the progenitors, like he inherited this movie.
9:16
And you know, like someone saw Tears of the Sun and was just
9:18
like, hey, that's a pretty good movie. I bet you Fuquah could
9:22
do this, and yeah, yeah, I am. I'm not surprised that
9:26
this is, you know, a Michael Bay jam beforehand, there's very there
9:31
there. You know, it's a Jerry Bruckheimer production, so you know,
9:35
there's always gonna be that sort of vibe, and if Bay drops out,
9:39
they're going to bring in somebody that can give some of that feel to it.
9:43
And there was even a Michael Bay esque shot towards the end, Yes,
9:48
when King Arthur is facing up against the lead Saxon and it's during the
9:54
White Flag and they're kind of like posturing each other. The camera starts to
9:58
rotate around them. Yes, yes, oh my god, maybe this is
10:03
a Michael Bay film. You know, I think that what's intriguing about this
10:09
is there are so many elements that I mean to speak to that because we're
10:16
you know, we're a director focused podcast. As much as I love Fuquah
10:20
as a director, overall, I am struggling to find him in it.
10:26
And maybe that's because he stepped into what was already a Michael Bay thing.
10:28
Like I look at this and there's nothing in here where I'm like, this
10:33
is an Antoine Fuquah movie. I look at this and it feels very Bruckheimer.
10:39
Yeah, Bruckheimer, but but like Bruckheimer striving to get to Kingdom of
10:46
Heaven or Gladiator Bruckheimer wants a little of that jam and that's the vibe here.
10:52
I mean. Also, it sounded like it you have Hans Zimmer and
10:56
you get a lot of Gladiator Pirates, all that mixed up, like nothing
11:01
really popped out. It's like it's like when you hear John Williams in the
11:07
nineties, like it has a sound like Episode one kind of sounds like you
11:11
know, other properties, like you can tell like he's really into this kind
11:13
of instrument right now, and it kind of goes through these seasons and yeah,
11:18
a lot of Han Zimmer. I mean, it's it's definitely its own
11:22
score, but it sounds a lot like his work from the early two thousands.
11:28
Yeah, and so I mean it's a decent score. It's not anything
11:31
that like pops out. And I think there are so many things that The
11:39
most interesting thing about the entire experience of watching it was that the first hour
11:46
plus I was really really getting into it, and then it just sort of
11:52
loses its focus in the back half. Even though we watched it, do
11:56
you kind of feel the end should have been the fight on the ice because
12:00
it kind of felt like the end, And I mean, it was a
12:03
pretty big battle, and I knew there was still more to the movie,
12:07
but I kind of could have let it go right then. I thought,
12:13
you know, yes, I understand what you're saying, where there's this big
12:18
climactic moment they make it through and then it's an odd danu mal to have
12:24
like the real climactic battle. Afterwards, it feels like this is I agree
12:28
with you. I agree with you. I think that it would have maybe
12:31
even been better to have them get through that climactic thing and then have the
12:37
the back half of the curve being setting up this idea that there's going to
12:41
be romantic conflict between yeah something and Arthur, and everything gets another tile card
12:48
that says and the Saxons went home question mark, and it's just like we
12:54
never deal with well while somebody narrates over but maybe they didn't. Maybe there
12:58
was you know, And unfortunately I can't ever hear the word Saxon's without thinking
13:01
of The Simpsons, when somebody says is asked about their heritage and he says,
13:05
I guess it's when the Angles met the Saxons, and somebody replies,
13:09
you mean when White met Bread, So it's you know. It is also
13:16
the sort of thing where I think that one of the challenges here is that
13:22
emotionally, there are a lot of moments that are really close to getting an
13:26
emotional reaction out of me, Yes, but the stuff leading up to it
13:31
doesn't feel like it got the build necessary for me to care enough. This
13:37
one felt like, you know, like I just got done watching the latest
13:41
episode of the Great British Baking Show and this I can't wait to see where
13:46
this is going. Oh yeah, strap in guys, because it's going to
13:50
be a rollercoaster. This movie felt like like somebody baking something where you have
13:56
all of the right ingredients. You're getting you're getting some of the best ingredients.
14:01
You're going to the store and you're getting top shelf items you know you
14:05
were getting. You're like, this is going to be the best kick ever,
14:07
And so you're putting in the time, you're putting in the effort,
14:11
you study, you throw it in, you mix it together. But then
14:16
when you bake it and everybody takes a taste, you're just like, it's
14:18
all right. You know, if there's something, everything is there and it
14:24
should work, but the spark is gone and I cannot put my finger on
14:30
it. And I'm hoping that we can figure that out tonight. Well.
14:33
I wanted to ask you, Tristan, because John and I shared, but
14:37
I think you're the only one of us who had seen this before, So
14:41
got to ask Redell Family Classic or washing it in college? Had you caught
14:48
up to it, had your dad stopped fast forwarding certain scenes by two thousand
14:52
and four. I was going to say to help you out. In two
14:54
thousand and four, we're getting past the whole family favorite thing because I'm off
14:58
and away at that point in two thousand and four. Two thousand and four
15:01
is a year I graduated high school and started college. I actually saw this
15:07
in the theater and I was actually thinking as I was watching this again,
15:09
because I've watched it a couple of times since. So the summer movie July
15:13
seventh, Okay, Yeah, So this was the summer before I started my
15:18
freshman year of college. And I saw it with a buddy of mine because
15:20
he actually my buddy saw it and he's just like, I really like this
15:24
movie. If you like ladyde or you're gonna like this, you know that
15:28
kind of thing. Like that's what he was all about. And I'm not
15:31
saying he was accurate. I'm just saying that's what he said. I saw
15:33
you, Darren, And so he took me to go see it, and
15:39
I saw it. I remember liking it way more on the big screen,
15:43
and I think this is one of those movies. Now, John, you
15:45
talked about that last week about how you felt if you saw First Night on
15:50
the big screen, you probably would have been able to forgive a few more
15:52
things, and with this one, I think that was the case with me.
15:58
I saw it in the big it was just like, oh, that
16:00
battle scene was fun, this was cool, Like this was a this was
16:03
a nice summer distraction when movies only cost six bucks the ticket, and so
16:10
you were able to forgive a little bit more because not every single movie needed
16:12
to make a billion dollars, not every single movie needed to be a religious
16:15
experience that you know, made you have faith in God and mankind. You
16:21
know, like this was just you just needed you just needed a sword and
16:23
sandals kind of picture. It made two hundred million on a one twenty budget,
16:26
which is not terrible. It's not like it's great either though, it's
16:32
not great, but yeah, it's it's it's a tax right off category,
16:38
you know, it's it's a push. It doesn't count another bad film.
16:42
It just is neutral. Nobody nobody even neutral. Yeah, well nobody got
16:48
fired over it. It was like, oh, okay, well let's try
16:51
to make it up in the margins sort of end his career. So that's
16:53
good. Yeah, yeah, And so yeah, this one, you know,
16:57
was and I saw the PG three version because that's what was in the
17:02
theater, and Fuquan and Bruckheimer of course were pissed that they had to make
17:07
it. PG thirteen version that Disney made him do that absolutely, and that
17:11
was actually one of the criticisms, right, and like that was one of
17:14
the criticisms of the movie was they're like, oh man, there was like
17:17
there was no there was no risk, there was no wager, there was
17:21
there was all bloodless violence. And I was like, yeah, it's PG
17:22
thirteen, So there's all these swiping of the swords, but there's no aftermath,
17:27
Like no one loses a head a limb, there's no blood spewing from
17:30
a wound. It's all just a bunch of like lightsaber play. That's the
17:34
version you had us watched Tristan because no oil Boy. When this movie started,
17:38
I'm like, well, we're just gonna see all sorts of body parts
17:42
chopped off in blood sprayed. My goodness. So this is one of those
17:48
times when the director's cut is not a completely different film. Like you know,
17:52
there's so many director's cuts out there that are really just kind of like
17:56
unrated cuts where they just throw in a few more f words, yeah,
18:00
more decapitations, and they're kind of shots that we had to put on the
18:03
floor to make it a PG. Thirteen, and we're going to reverse that
18:07
city it's not even worth the effort of re editing or putting it out and
18:11
slapping a label of director's cut. This one is a little bit. I
18:18
think it's justified to do it because the type of violence that it throws down
18:22
changes the tone of the film, Like this isn't just like a few gunshots
18:26
here and there and someone dropping an F bomb. This was no, like
18:33
the violence has weight, like it actually feels like someone is battling and you
18:37
know, killing and trying to save people or trying to kill people and everything
18:41
like that. And also he was able to he actually removed a few scenes
18:45
that were in the PG thirteen version in the theatrical cut and reorganized so it
18:51
was much closer to his original vision, which I appreciate because the love scene
18:56
between Guinevere and Arthur was in a different place, and it actually fixed some
19:00
continuity errors. And they also removed us so funny what well just when they're
19:07
like, you know, starting to get it on. Also just like you
19:10
know, Arthur, I was just like, oh my gosh, but where
19:15
and then it starts the whole final battle like like he's like he's really pissed,
19:19
really upset. But but that's did Tristan's point about the reordering. I
19:26
did read about this what you talking about, Tristan, where like they put
19:30
that earlier. I can't even imagine it a different where you would put it
19:34
apparently it occurred later or something like that. It was like it actually it
19:38
occurred later. It was when you find out that there was not going to
19:41
be any backup from the Romans. Yeah, oh so the other people leave
19:45
and it's just him and her behind. Yeah, it was right before everybody
19:48
left. It was like the night before that. It was weird. Yeah,
19:52
no, it was. It was weird. It was weird and also
19:55
well okay, no go ahead there. And I was just gonna say,
19:56
like to your point also about the the the bloodiness, I felt it worked
20:03
better because if their whole like we're ready to get out, I think hit
20:08
way stronger by seeing what battle was like for them, whereas if it had
20:15
been the PG. Thirteen version of like oh oh I'm dead, I'm dead,
20:18
Like it's just like I'm like, yeah, they are, they are
20:21
done with war. They have put in their time. You know. I
20:26
didn't know that the Knights were from like Mongolia or whatever tribe, you know,
20:30
but that that in and of its But that in and of itself is
20:34
very interesting because I think you see a very very super modern sensibility come in,
20:40
like it happened with with Zucker's First Night, and we talked about this
20:45
where it's like it moves from sacred charge from God above Lady of the Lake
20:51
sort of thing. Too. Well, they were just very organized as a
20:53
good secular system that they have every going, yeah, sure people believe in
20:57
God, but we're not going to put it in your face sort of thing.
21:00
And then this becomes and I'm not saying this in a negative way at
21:04
all. I'm just saying like it just popped in my brain, as this
21:07
is the multicultural King Arthur. And what I mean by that is he's specifically
21:14
asked at one point, you haven't converted any of these people, and he
21:17
basically says, I will respect the tradition that they came from. It doesn't
21:19
matter to me what they believe. It matters to me that they fight.
21:22
And it's like that in and of itself is so not period accurate, Like
21:27
that's the biggest air horn of this is not real. That's author being like
21:33
Crusades. Why would I force my religion on others? Like why would I,
21:38
Arthur, I would never go off to search for the Grail. No,
21:42
I would never take part in that. That's true, man. But
21:45
at the same time, like I don't have a negative with it, because
21:51
yeah, you have changed already at the time, they're already Romans. I
21:53
already don't care that they're not caring Crusades. But but the thing is additionally,
21:59
like if you're get to put it where it's the Romans, the Romans
22:02
didn't really care that like the Romans Romans before it was Holy Roman Empire.
22:06
The Romans were like, no, pay your taxes and whatever, you know,
22:12
Caesar Caesar's sort of thing. But yeah, they were like, you
22:17
know, do your thing. But if we show up and we tell you
22:18
to stop doing a thing, that's what you got to stop doing a thing.
22:21
But well, we'll tend to leave you alone. Songs you're producing don't
22:23
be like Carthage. Carthage is who you don't want to be in the in
22:27
the scenario. But like, you know, it's one of those things where
22:30
it doesn't it feels both historically inaccurate, but also yeah, it's okay,
22:40
right, Like because Arthur's group here isn't they're not knights on are they're basically
22:45
like a commando's squad, tears of the Sun, like you said, Tristan,
22:48
and you don't care what your your crack commando squad believes so long as
22:52
they can get the job done. They're not saying that Einstein once had a
22:56
beer with Elvis after a weekend bender. You like, it's it's not that
23:00
kind okay, yeah, yeah, So I know that's an absurd example,
23:07
but it's it's one of those things where you're like, I guess somebody could
23:10
be like that. It kind of goes against the sentimentality of the time,
23:14
but okay, I mean, you know, it's it's one of a lot
23:15
of times they call them knights and I'm like, but they're kind of not,
23:19
like, they don't look like knights. But again, they've committed to
23:23
the bit, like they've committed to the romanness and all of that. So
23:27
I'm like, okay, I'm on board. You You threw narration and text
23:32
at me, so I get it what's going on. But yeah, I
23:36
think it did do a good job of not sticking its finger back in the
23:41
Arthurian legend, Like over and over, it's like, no, we're going
23:44
to tell our own story, like because it's so or maybe maybe maybe it
23:48
stuck its finger in there. A couple of times I was gonna say,
23:51
I was like, I don't know about that one, because if they really
23:53
didn't want to stick their finger into it, they wouldn't have involved Merlin and
23:56
Guinevere, like if they if was just a name at that point, like
24:02
there was nothing magic him. But that's but that's what's annoying about, like
24:07
even saying the name Merlin, like it feels so perfunctory and cheap, where
24:11
it's like and Merlin Merlin is their leader and it's like, eh, and
24:15
there's a ruler that he's a magician. You're like, oh, okay,
24:18
okay, Like I would have preferred, honestly for the structure to just have
24:22
Guinevere be like the warrior queen, just commit to it, just have her
24:29
be the leader in that scenario and then just fully embrace it. You've decided
24:33
to make her that way anyway, so just have her be the warrior queen
24:40
fully, no Merlin, and then their marriage even carries more weight at the
24:45
end of it. Okay, let's just let's jump ahead to the end,
24:48
because I want to talk about that. So in the originally there was no
24:53
wedding scene. Oh, in the theatrical I actually no, I think that
24:59
there there was a wedding scene in the theatrical cut, but originally I'm surprised
25:03
that it's still there in the director's cut because Fuquah wanted a much more kind
25:07
of dire ending, a much darker enduring, where you know, Lancelot's dead,
25:12
Tristan's dead, and Guinevere and Arthur are just just kind of sitting there
25:19
like, you know, what do we do now? And Arthur says something
25:23
heroic I can't remember exactly, and then we just kind of end on the
25:26
shot of the graves, and that's it. That's the movie, if I'm
25:30
remembering correctly. But then like the producers are like, now you got to
25:34
do something. You can't end on that note. You got to you gotta
25:37
do something, And so they have this wedding and watching it this time after
25:42
seeing so many different versions of King Arthur as we have for these past couple
25:48
of weeks, and then watching this version and then I'm seeing the wedding and
25:52
I'm like, what political purpose does this wedding serve? Right? Because gever
26:00
Or is not a queen of anything. She's she's the daughter of a loose
26:04
leader of Merlin, of the of the WoDES, which is a completely made
26:08
up name. They're not there's no such thing as the Woads. They were
26:11
the picts and yeah, but that but Fuquah. Fuquah's raisoning originally was that
26:18
picts would have been a weird word for people to say, but then agreed,
26:22
who was maybe the writer or something said like, well, it was
26:25
supposed to denote sort of like a pejorative that you would throw at an enemy,
26:30
like just like a slang term where you're like, there's just a bunch
26:33
of WoDES, right like that. They should have made that clear. I
26:36
mean, like, you know, John, you know more narration, explain
26:41
it to us. I think all historians agree that, you know, like
26:45
picks, I'm totally messing with you. The important thing is that we definitely
26:49
needed to have that narration at the end with the running horses where they go
26:53
but don't be because they're no, don't be said their names care you bye,
27:00
and then credits well like I mean my only thing for the well the
27:06
other thing with the wedding. Yeah, I totally see what you're saying Tristan
27:10
about like what and the Romans are gone, so King Arthur is a leader
27:12
of nothing. Well and that's the thing. They're like all of Britain and
27:15
I'm like, way, way wait, wait, wait wait wait. Britain's
27:18
pretty big and you guys are maybe like a hundred people in this corner,
27:23
like there's no United Britain. I can I can answer this. I can
27:27
answer this. Once the Romans left, there were very few people left in
27:32
Britain. I mean that Drew you could rule the whole island with one hundred
27:37
people. There you go and there you go they did. Yeah, I'll
27:40
explain. That's my head cannon again. But either said, this was made
27:44
by a non British person, because no British person would ever dare say this
27:48
is like how our country started. But but like it's one of those things
27:52
where, you know, as much fun as I'm having sort of like you
27:56
know, kicking at it. I want to go back to the fact that
27:59
the first like hour and twenty minutes I was fully committed to this. I
28:03
was really digging this. And I don't know if it's because Fuquah came in.
28:08
I don't know if there was too much meddling. I don't know specifically
28:12
where it happens, Like, at what point in the process does it happen
28:18
where they just lose control and suddenly it's like, oh uh, I'm not
28:23
quite sure where this is going. How early in the process could they have
28:27
caught this, should they have caught this, or could they have even caught
28:32
it? You know, with him coming in so late? Is this just
28:34
something where no matter who stepped in, this was going to get a little
28:40
messy at the end. And I want to be very clear again, while
28:44
I'm offering these criticisms, if you take these pieces, I enjoyed the battles
28:49
so much. I even enjoyed the final battle so much, like it redeemed
28:53
it a lot because I was like, I like, what's happening right now.
28:56
I like watching what I'm watching. When I step back and I'm like,
29:00
okay, I'm going to put it in the context of a storytelling thing,
29:04
then I start looking at the problems. But in the moment I have
29:08
less of a problem with it. And it's like, I don't know if
29:11
that's just a function of the development of this was just too messy and nobody
29:17
could save it. You know to make it like the big classic that The
29:21
Kingdom of Heaven director's cut is or something like that. Well, apparently,
29:25
halfway through filming, Bruckheimer sent his assistant to a local DVD store and bought
29:32
Excalibur, Braveheart, Lawrence of Arabia, Waterloo, Glory, Ran and passed
29:38
of Glory and gave them to Fuqua and said, okay, watch this,
29:41
watch these, and he did. And the reason why he wants them is
29:48
to get a better handle on large scale battle scenes. You could probably the
29:53
reason why you like that last scene, that last battle scene so much is
29:57
probably because he did his homework. Fu did his homework. But it's an
30:00
amazing battle filming. There's tactics, there's like there's some like when they send
30:07
the first flank through and they all die and you hear them from the other
30:11
side of the wall, like and then they're quiet. You're like, O
30:14
dang, Like that's like some psychological warfare there. But that would actually,
30:19
I think explain why it seems to lose some of its emotional punch is because
30:25
if suddenly in the midst of filming you have to replan or come up with
30:30
a new approach to your big climactic battle scene. You're diverting all of your
30:34
mental energy to something else than making me care the most I can about the
30:41
characters. I think what I think. For me, it started to go
30:45
off the rails when Guenevere met up with Merlin at the campsite. Yeah,
30:52
I could, I could see that. I think that's when it started to
30:55
get weird, when it is all tattooed up and like ready for warm,
31:00
like that earlier when when we first when Merlin first talks with King Arthur.
31:06
Oh, that's right where she brings him to him and like, oh,
31:07
he's not going to kill you, and yeah, that felt like it was
31:11
a part of a different movie to me. Now I felt like, obviously,
31:15
so that was Merlin in the trees that he saw at the very beginning,
31:19
right when he looks across the way, because the vibe I got,
31:26
well, when he spares the guy's life he's about to kill, like the
31:29
last guy in the first kirmish, and he looks across and so I get
31:33
it now that that's Merlin, it's the leader. Whatever the vibe I got,
31:37
which was really interesting. It's kind of said that wasn't the case,
31:41
but like or maybe it was, but the vibe I got was that that
31:45
was that soldier's father, and it was kind of like looking across the battlefield
31:49
and seeing the father in the trees and being like, I'm choosing to spare
31:53
your son because I don't want to take this isn't a combatant anymore. This
31:59
is some one son, and I've seen enough of death. I think the
32:02
visual language supports you in that. I took it the same way where I
32:07
was like, yes, they established that's Merlin. I'm like, oh,
32:09
that's Merlin's son, and this is our first step toward Arthur saying look,
32:14
we can be to each other. Yeah, And it would have been nice
32:20
to have it more clearly laid out, so that you have another father son
32:24
that he goes up against and what she does. But right, but like
32:31
if it's very clear that, it's like you understand the importance of the father
32:36
son relationship there, and then you encounter this other father son relationship and it's
32:42
like no, no, no, there's no mercy for you because I don't
32:44
want peace with your father. I want you gone, I want all of
32:46
you gone. Then suddenly it makes it heavier. But the thing is,
32:52
since that doesn't communicate the presence of the son is a distraction. And I
32:59
think that, uh, you know, scars Guard as the villain, I
33:02
want more of that guy. I don't want his son. I don't want
33:06
to build to him. I want I want to through the whole Melvie to
33:09
come and kick our but right, and he cuts such a great figure with
33:15
like that cloak and the beard and the hair. His line is like finally
33:19
someone worth killing. It's like oh dang, Like yeah, and he's a
33:24
and he's a tactician like he you know, he he knows his strength is
33:29
the size of his army, but he also doesn't throw it away like he's
33:31
not he doesn't care killing people like within his own army, but he's not
33:35
going to like throw the entire thing away. I like that you bring that
33:37
up because I do agree with you. I agree with all which of the
33:43
many points. Did you like that I said about about stilling scars Guard's character
33:49
being a tactician, Yeah, and being you know, he's he very much
33:52
plays it like he's bored with war. That he's just kind of like going,
33:55
I'm going to win. It's just a matter of time. Okay,
34:00
let's start the sequence. Yes, but then when he meets King Arthur,
34:04
he's like, oh fantastic. He he literally puts his arms in the air
34:07
in excitement. But I like, I like that you what you said about
34:10
him being a tactician, because I always thought it was weird to me that
34:15
he was the one who killed Tristan, because Tristan is clearly the best swordsman
34:20
of the group and two swords. No, that's oh no, you're right,
34:27
you're right. Sorry, So Tristan is they they build him up to
34:30
be the best swords mils and and then he's taken out by the Big Bad
34:36
But they didn't really show the Big Bad as being this fantastic hand to hand
34:42
warrior. Is really just this ominous presence with an army, with an army,
34:45
And so it was really weird to me that it took Arthur to take
34:49
down him and not Tristan. I felt like Tristan should have died in a
34:52
different way. Maybe Tristan was there to show to elevate him to a hand
34:58
to hand combat threat, because like you said, we haven't seen him fight,
35:02
so it would have been it wouldn't have made less. It makes him
35:06
more threatening when he does the second fight against Arthur whereas well. But I
35:10
see what you're saying too. I don't think well at oh, I think
35:13
that's why they did that. Yeah, I don't. I don't necessarily have
35:15
a problem with the way that it plays out, because Tristan also winds up
35:20
wounding him in such a way that you you get the sense that as great
35:25
as Arthur is, his night is still helping him in death because his night,
35:30
Yeah, a stab to the to the inside that the very last to
35:35
the leg too, righte and or something that's right yeah, So it's like
35:37
he it makes it possible for Arthur to win that battle. I will also
35:45
say that I as critical as I can be of these sorts of things that
35:47
feel like boardroom decisions. I appreciated the fact that when Kiera Knightley took out
35:53
that nameless lieutenant who's elevated above the sun at one point or whatever, that
36:00
we saw other female warriors come in and help her out because and I laughed
36:06
because thanks to Avengers endgame right, my low like the bar you had to
36:14
clear. I was like, that was more effective than what they did endgame.
36:16
Cool, all right, that's a win. I got that there's nobody
36:20
sitting there it's like, like nobody's sitting there grabbing him, going girl power.
36:24
It's just a thing that happened, and I'm allowed to just visually guess
36:28
what if, like you want to take out this giant man, maybe gang
36:31
up on him. It's a solid tactic, exactly exactly. But it also
36:36
establishes that Gwinevere herself is not She's not so uncommon that there are women who
36:45
fight in this battle, and therefore, how could you fight you not know
36:51
about the ways of war. It's like, no, no, I don't
36:52
have any of that. Well r speaking of kind of studio decisions and producers
36:58
notes when it comes to Cure and Nightly. There was some controversy when this
37:00
movie came out because the American poster of her gave her a much bigger chest
37:07
than what she has in real life and what she has in the movie.
37:10
And it's ridiculous if you've seen it, because in the movie her her chest
37:15
is practically strapped down because she's about to go into battle, and Kira Knightley
37:21
is small chested, but in the American poster, she even though she didn't
37:24
show up until the fifty two minute mark, in the American poster, she
37:28
is front and center with a large chest. I think in the you know
37:31
what is it the where they're doing promoting the film. I think that she
37:37
even like called it out and she's like pointing it and she's going like this
37:39
is all airbrush. There's like there's nothing, this is all fantasy, Like
37:44
none of this is real, and don't remember this. It's some interview.
37:47
She said that, like she points to the poster and is like, this
37:52
is not real. Yeah, I'm not saying we need to spend any time
37:57
on it. I'm just say it's the thing that happened, and it's an
37:59
interesting touchstone for for for this movie. So let's talk about the cast a
38:02
little bit. Let's talk about the casting, because that was one thing that
38:06
you know, when I gave my baking analogy, because we have Clive Owen
38:08
as Arthur Kieren Knightley as gwinne Bee. Ian I can't pronounce his name.
38:14
I am Ian Grifford as Lancelot. Nobody can just say mister fantastic, fantastic,
38:20
fantastic. He's in that movie the following year, and he looked like
38:23
they did nothing, did they just this is mister fantastic in cosplay? Is
38:28
what it saw what I saw, but we got Mad's Michelson is Tristan,
38:31
Joel Ederkin, Edgarton as GWayne, Hugh Dancy as Galahad, Ray Winstone as
38:37
Bores, and the late Ray Stevenson as Dagonette. Stealen. Scar's guard is
38:43
certic and yeah, I mean that, Holy crap, what a cast.
38:46
It's a hell of a cast. I like I And the thing is,
38:51
I felt short changed because the Stevenson stuff was really interesting, especially when he
38:55
bonds with the young young child. I wanted more and I didn't get it,
39:01
and I like that was one of those things where I just felt like,
39:06
even with this being a director's cut, I was like, is there
39:08
more of this? There's you know where I care so much more or I
39:15
care so much more when one ray is morning the other ray on the battlefield
39:22
like that. That's one of those things where like, I just wish there
39:25
had been more to hold on to because you have powerhouse acting going on here,
39:32
and it just feels like the material doesn't live up to the talent available.
39:38
And I, you know, I think that's just one of the challenges
39:44
of the film because the moments that those actors are given to shine they do,
39:49
they're just not given enough moments to shine and and they do a good
39:52
job with the costuming. Like I always felt I could identify each night which
39:59
they could all look totally the same, like they could make that mistake.
40:01
But it's like, Okay, you're the one with the ball head, with
40:04
the you know, the curve knives. Okay, you're the one with the
40:07
bird. And I mean you learn their names and their names of half of
40:10
them are from the legend. But I think that they did, they did
40:15
really well. I never get tired where they where they show, like,
40:20
oh where all that's left? Like they're this table used to be full,
40:24
you know, like that's a really interesting shot of the It is a really
40:29
interesting shot. I agree with you. The idea that like they've been whittled
40:31
down to their final members is really cool, And like I'm on the fence
40:39
about whether more attention should be brought to it with just some dialogue of like
40:45
this table used to be full. Okay, why are you asking us to
40:49
do anything else versus just have it be there and let me work with it
40:54
and be like, man, these guys have really been through a lot,
40:59
you know, and I feel like you really get that sense you really you
41:04
know, John, you talked about you know, when they when they're given
41:07
that or it might have been you, Darren, when where they give them
41:08
moments to shine, they really shine. And I think the scene where Arthur
41:14
comes to the party after everybody's celebrating and everything like that and has to be
41:19
the person to give the bad news. You know, they're all losing their
41:22
minds, like especially Galahad, Yeah, you know, he's just like we
41:25
done. Yeah, it's just like it's a game over, man, like
41:29
you know, we can't do this anymore. And it's I felt like the
41:32
scene right before that when Ray Winstone's wife or mother of his children, yeah,
41:38
and he starts got singing rude, he's got so many kids. And
41:44
when she's singing that that she has such a lovely voice, and it's such
41:46
an amazing message to the songs, like you feel it, like just the
41:51
music alone. You look at Winstone and he's crying. All the other characters
41:55
are just like just really soaking it in, realizing that they're gonna go home,
42:00
and then Arthur tells him that they're not. And I love it how
42:02
the scene ends with like Winstone losing his mind just screaming and he's like and
42:08
Gawayne goes. He's like, well you're gonna comes, I'm gonna come,
42:12
yeah right right, yeah, well yeah, And I mean to their credit,
42:16
like that scene, the scene where they all write up in full armor
42:21
to him on the hill, Like this movie plays those moments really well,
42:25
like it would be very easy to miss the mark. You have to nail
42:30
those moments where your characters are making those choices because like, we all know
42:35
they're gonna come back, like we're not surprised by that. But there's that
42:39
kind of moment where I think it was way Winston again where he he's like
42:45
calling out to Arthur on It was almost kind of like a do you want
42:49
me to come? And he and they cheer, and then he rides back
42:52
to not go at that moment, and I'm like, oh, okay,
42:55
so they're not going. And then I thought, oh, are they gonna
42:59
do a thing where they're all leaving but they're all planning on coming back.
43:02
And obviously they do come back, but through the choice they self choose,
43:08
and at the end they're rightfully so kind of taken aback by Arthur because Arthur
43:15
is like, you know, I'm saying this is I am now saying this
43:21
is my land. And that's kind of what they're all realizing is that,
43:23
yeah, this is their land, Like what fifteen years ago home? Do
43:28
they really want to go back to? Yeah? That was the moment where
43:31
I was kind of like, why didn't they choose that moment to go run
43:35
up to the hill, Like it felt like there was kind of kind of
43:37
some wasted space in between those two little I think I was okay with the
43:44
direction they took with because that gave space for Gwenevere. I think if they
43:47
were all there with him, like we need to see Gwenevere kind of.
43:51
And then the other you know, I guess call them the tree people,
43:53
but you know, the other the other tribe coming out like it's like,
43:58
oh, just call them, they're gonna help out, and they and they're
44:01
making plans and they're like creating smoke and mist, which was really awesome.
44:07
A smoke screen. I love it because that has that feeling of authenticity as
44:12
well. It's it's like, oh, look, they're creating a smoke screen
44:14
so that people can get away and they can't see what's going on. I
44:20
I am. This is just such an interestingly frustrating sort of movie to try
44:25
to to break down because there are so many pieces that work. Tristan to
44:30
your question though, is like why don't they just go like I think there
44:34
could have been dialogue, Like they choose these scenes of people just looking at
44:37
each other. It would have been nice to see the other night sort of
44:40
gather together and one of them say, listen, what's what what's it worth
44:46
being free? If we know he's in trouble, you know, like just
44:50
a piece of dialogue or something. I go back to him. I can't
44:52
even really remember what the grass look like at home, because they probably don't,
44:59
like they kind of have kept it hype in their mind for yes,
45:02
but like so something like that where they're like, you know what, I
45:05
can't even remember what my what our hut used to look like, but that
45:09
man over there has bled for us, you know, or something short line
45:15
and then he just rides off and they're all just like, okay, well
45:19
I guess, you know, and then they show up in the full armor.
45:22
Heck, you could have had somebody like look around and be like,
45:24
you know, in my in my dreams, my dad actually looks like Arthur,
45:29
and every would be like yeah, like and give that sort of like
45:31
weight to it where it's like, Arthur's our real dad. He's been leading
45:36
us in modeling life for us. Lord Tristan. Let's the bird go.
45:39
It's like, you're free, just flies straight over to Arthur. It purches
45:43
on him. It's like, well, okay, the bird says, actually
45:46
you say that as a joke, But that kind of would have been cool,
45:50
Like that would have done, that would have been cool. I do
45:53
want to slip in. I also liked how they had the sword in the
45:57
stone moment. It was quick and it was simply in the flashback where he's
46:01
pulling the sword from his dead father's you know grave and that moment of strength
46:08
like when his you know mom's being killed. But like, because I totally
46:12
forgotten about that part of the story because they're romans, guys. I don't
46:15
know if you do, but they're they're romans. But I like that it
46:20
worked out. I felt that worked for this is an Excalibur. It's not
46:24
all about the sword, but there was a moment and that's all we needed.
46:29
Yeah, all right, Well, so I feel like we've done a
46:31
nice cross section of this movie. We talked a lot about what didn't work.
46:35
But we also we didn't just kick it while it was down, you
46:37
know, we talked about what we liked and what did work and what excelled,
46:44
and I think we all agree that we would have liked to have seen
46:46
more brotherhood throughout the movie instead of just at the beginning. So Darren,
46:52
you're gonna go last. Actually no, you're gonna go second, because John
46:57
you're gonna go first. How many how many hawks flying through the air?
47:05
Are you giving this picture? You know, this might surprise a lot of
47:07
people, but I would give this a three because I could see myself putting
47:13
this on the air and just having it on in the background, maybe not
47:17
really paying close attention to it, but tuning in. Every time there's stuff
47:22
that works, like the first hour, I'm pretty much gonna be invested in
47:25
in like the back half. I know I can like now, you know
47:28
what, I'll work while I'm doing this sort of thing. So this lands
47:31
with a respectable three, which, outside of Monty Python in the Holy Grail,
47:37
is the highest rating I have given a King Arthur movie to this point.
47:43
Darren, what about you? Yeah, I'm actually also going to give
47:46
it a three, not because John gave it a three. I don't know
47:52
wavelength man on a wavelength, No, but it's funny. Like as we
47:55
were critiquing this movie, as we do, we critiqued it, we weren't
48:00
tearing it apart it. It had a lot of good stuff in it,
48:07
and I think it ripped off the band aid real fast at the very beginning,
48:12
kind of setting it in Roman times, because there was definitely like what
48:16
is going on? But once they committed to the bit, I'm like,
48:21
Okay, it's the It's it's kind of like how you have like high noon,
48:27
but it could be in space, or it could be in the desert,
48:30
or it could be like it's the say it's an archetypal story. They're
48:34
keeping it really close to Britain, but it is kind of just pushing it
48:37
into a different era, which is fine, and they have the same names
48:40
and all of that. But uh no, I think I think it totally
48:45
worked it. And I also agree with John like if this came on,
48:49
not that I watched broadcast television, but if it came on, like,
48:52
I would watch this again. It was enjoyable, even the blood. It
48:57
was gore, but it wasn't grotesque, like yeah, I don't know if
49:02
I don't know how they were shooting it, because you saw heads and legs
49:07
and arms getting chopped off and blood spray. But it didn't linger on it
49:12
like modern gore does. It was something fit. They found this happy medium
49:16
of like, I feel the impact of it, but I'm not like grow,
49:22
I'm not disturbed by it. It was just, oh, maybe that's
49:27
something from four, Like that's the magical sweet spot of you know, violence
49:31
without you know, gluttony. So yeah, so I enjoyed this, I
49:36
think. I mean, mister Fantastic is always going to be mister Fantastic.
49:38
I'm sorry, it's just what his face looks like. I can't look past
49:43
that. But but I love the parts between him and Arthur. There are
49:46
a lot of good dialogue pieces. And I really everyone I wanted to die
49:52
did die, like the Roman. You know, Dad totally needed to die.
49:58
And I loved how he got killed. I love the snitch who was
50:01
up in the tree and just got nailed by that fifty thousand yard arrow shot.
50:07
It's like it was just so satisfying. All right, Well, I
50:12
am coming close to you, guys. I'm giving this a two point five.
50:15
This is a straight down the middle rating. This is on letterbox.
50:21
I call it mediocre, where it's not great, it's not good, it's
50:25
not bad, it's just okay. This is just an okay film to me,
50:30
Like this could have been so much better. All the pieces were there,
50:32
but it needed to be reorganized a little bit and maybe a few more
50:37
rounds on the script. And I know we joked about how it was trying
50:40
to be Gladiator. This was actually written by the same man who wrote Gladiator.
50:45
Yeah that does not surprise me. Yeah that needed to be mentioned.
50:50
So there we are, two threes and a two and a half and nowhere
50:55
near as much fighting as we had last week with our first night PODCAS.
51:00
And that's Visual Visual Explanations. Next week we're concluding our wing of King Arthur
51:07
and we're jumping into a new decade with twenty seventeen's King Arthur Legend of the
51:12
Sword, directed by Guy Ritchie. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.