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Thaler Pekar: Until We Feel Heard | 100 Stories #7 · 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project

• Paige Williams: And get started. Today, I'm speaking. Today I'm speaking with Thaler Pekar whose work centers around helping smart leaders say what needs to be said, hear what needs to be heard, and build cultures of excellent communication. invited Thaler to 100 Stories because I have ⁓ much to learn ⁓ her three decades of vast experience around communication and story. Welcome, Thaler. So glad to have you here. Thaler Pekar: It works. ⁓ I think that's here to quite work as well. Paige, I'm very happy to be here. Paige Williams: We will dive right in and I'm gonna start with tell me about the work experiences that have most shaped how you understand story leadership and human behavior. Thaler Pekar: Sorry, I'm just thinking 'cause that was a little different than what was on the sheet. Paige Williams: I did adjust them. Do you want me to go back to the original? Thaler Pekar: Okay. ⁓ It's okay. My I've worked in communication for many years. And the of this century, there is a huge focus on Telling people to talk about their values. I was doing public affairs work mainly with progressive organizations. And it was: if believe in community, talk about community. If you believe in education, talk about education. And it I very that community something completely different to a farmer in Montana. Than perhaps it means to a gay oboe player on the upper west side of Manhattan. so the only way to make it clear you meant and to invite people to really and unpack these values and invite people to see themselves in them was through story. And we weren't, I was working with progressive clients who weren't necessarily getting. Ahead as quickly as I wanted them to. brother is manager of the Brain Imaging Institute at the Kennedy Kirby Center at Johns Hopkins. And I started talking to him about how people hear and information. And that really led me down the path of story. And so I a real deep dive into story, into the neuroscience behind Into how we hear and process information. I started writing about it a lot, and I think the was ripe for somebody who didn't have a woo-woo on it, ⁓ but talking about it as a very powerful communication tool. So that was one way in. other thing that it was real pivotal moment was again working in this public. Affairs firm, I was introduced to a client once by my vice president who said, ⁓ and this is Thaler. She knows how to get feature stories for our clients. And I thought, isn't that what we all do here? And I realized it wasn't that other people were great at getting lots of reporters to show up for a press briefing. And I was terrible at that. But I was really good at going into an organization, a day with people, walking around, asking questions, listening, and would find the small story that exemplified the big narrative of what the organization was doing or the ⁓ narrative behind the advocacy that they were working on. And because of I got cover stories in the New York Times magazine and in Time magazine and in O magazine and seven pages in People magazine. And I was just able to the stories that helped invite people into understanding. Paige Williams: How did it change company who you were working with and serving in finding their stories and reporting on it? Thaler Pekar: We were really successful. I brought in a lot of business. It was it was wonderful. I I did another job while was there. I ran a huge program on religious pluralism at the Ford Foundation. I did the communications aspect of that, which was fascinating and so interesting. I also worked the worked with the United Nations Population Fund as a client and I went all over world helping Advocates different areas figure an advocacy plan for for whatever their their goal, their issue was, and then to communicate it. So my background was an intersection of communications ⁓ and public work and advocacy work. And being able to that around the world was incredible. So I would spend three days. ⁓ Over a five-day period helping people develop these plans, what did they want accomplished? Who were the who could make that happen? And did you reach them? And then I would help them practice in the last two days on camera what they ⁓ what they to say to ⁓ be heard in and help make that policy go forward. You You had asked me to coming on today, you had asked in an email about a story that was really pivotal in my in my work. And one them was early in early in life, in my late twenties, started an advocacy group in Hoboken, New Jersey, where I live. And this is a miles square town on the banks of the Hudson River directly across from New York City, we would table. This was before the internet. And you would actually stand on the street corner a weekend and get and ask people to join the list. And we became a very, very powerful organization. We could mobilize 500 people overnight. It was wonderful. It changed my career doing this work because that's when I professionalized the the advocacy work. We would have letters that people could sign and we would then send to legislators. And one day a woman came by the table and she said, ⁓ my God, I heard from my congressman. I came and stopped at the table several weeks ago and I signed the letter and he wrote me back. And she had never in democracy that way. She understand that. She had a voice, her voice could be heard, it mattered, she would get answered back, her absolute at being was I hold with to this day. And that completely changed me. think I've always long believed that p everybody deserves to be heard and deserves spaciousness to hear other people as ⁓ well. And we need to create that space. I still remember that woman getting so excited and my being dumbfounded and then realizing this pivotal and incredibly Paige Williams: In the evolution of your work and and from not just communication but storytelling and the transformation that happens people and for companies as a result of that storytelling. What are most surprised by? Why do you lean in even deeper? What's the book about? Thaler Pekar: Think I'm surprised Surprised that people find it hard. We're telling stories all the time, and I want people to lean into their innate ability to do it. And I want people to the the gift that they're being given when somebody shares a story with them, that if they listen closely, they're hearing facts and values and emotions and things that couldn't be said any other way. I am surprised that People don't realize that stories are being said whether or not they're listening to them. I'm so happy and appreciative that that that's actually not as powerful the word as I would like to say of of how thrilled I am about your work and your bringing up the idea ⁓ of of narrative and having more people. that we tell stories, we hear stories, we are living within the context of multifaceted stories. And and the more people that can appreciate that, I I talk about lack narrative leadership a and developing the narrative leadership of individuals so that can better lead teams and understand where what they're doing and what they're hearing fits into what we actually have, my my firm, Thaler Picar and Partners, has a trademarked process called the narrative guarded, where we actually map out what stories are being said and what stories do you want to grow and tamp down on and happening at those really rich edges things are synthesizing. Paige Williams: That's awesome. Is that what's going into the book? Tell me more about that. Thaler Pekar: the book that I'm working on. the the book that I would like to put out into the world is a book how what say doesn't matter. It's what the other person hears. And Paige Williams: tell me more. Thaler Pekar: Well I'm real I'm hesitant to talk about this page just because yeah, I don't Yeah, I I just don't wanna ⁓ okay. Paige Williams: Then don't worry about it. Let me ask you a different question. We'll skip all that. Can we talk about the narrative garden? Thaler Pekar: Sure, we can. I'm just I'm hesitant about the book 'cause it's not at once I get the agent and I'll I'll scream it from the rooftops, but I don't want to talk about it yet. Paige Williams: Cool. if you get comfortable with it, you can always come back and tell me what I need to know. Okay. Thaler Pekar: Thank you. Paige Williams: I'm gonna ask okay, I'm gonna back up because we're gonna get into narrative leadership because that's what I wanna learn the most from. I think this is the question you were alluding to before, but I'm gonna ask it, and if it is the story of woman at the table getting a letter back, then tell me, but maybe another story as well. What story do you tell? Thaler Pekar: Okay. Paige Williams: about one of the most defining or transformative moments of your own life. And has that story changed over time? Thaler Pekar: It is the story of the woman at the table. A another story that I'm realizing threads through my life again, mentioned living in Hoboket and and what this town means to me. In nineteen there was a referendum to stop the waterfront being overdeveloped through corporate interests. ⁓ And that referendum won by the citizens by 12 votes. so to vote to witness, to organize for ⁓ and in a referendum has changed my city ⁓ and has made so beautiful and so ⁓ so more civically engaged a really big story. And changes ⁓ the sens that I'm constantly. Finding my connection to it and realizing the power that it it's had over me. I don't tell it differently, the meaning of it's getting deeper and deeper. There's another story about a a near-death experience I had. in I maybe it ⁓ twenty five, years ago, I almost drowned Costa Rica and I went under, I got caught in an undertow. I went under several times. I came up. I managed to scream for help. I happened to be on one of the few in Costa Rica that had a lifeguard, thank goodness. I went down again, I came up again, I saw that there was a crowd on the beach. So I knew that people had heard me scream. I went down again. ⁓ I I was luckily I know people who friends of a friend who actually died a year later on that same beach. That I was married a year and a half when that happened. And I really felt I was with my husband and I I felt that he had my back. And six months after that happened was when I opened my own business. And I felt I had That he had my back and I could do that. knew it was like to ask for help. I hadn't done that before much of my life. And I having that experience helped me start the business. And so that's a story that again I find different ways into over the years. It takes on it shows itself to have different meaning to me. Paige Williams: Can we go a little deeper? And having that near death experience. Connect the dots for us that feeling of desperation and having to cry out for help, six months later, saying, going to start a business and needing help and asking for it. Connect those between the experience, the story you told yourself that developed from that experience, ⁓ and then action you took as a result of that experience. Thaler Pekar: I think what I'm trying to say is I d at the time I did not connect the dots. It it was only years later that I realized I had a Paige Williams: Right. Thaler Pekar: a deep sense that my husband and I could take this risk of me going out. He's self-employed as well. for me to to walk away from a job with benefits, you know, this is before the ACA. and And so I I think I realized could do this. We we I saw I saw him, I myself survive this thing. ⁓ You you go through something like that, and once you once the water comes out of your sinuses and you get all this sand out your hair, and you know, that night you're out for dinner. Like it didn't happen. And you move on. and Yeah. I'll tell you there was something else interesting that happened at that moment that I suppose is related to storytelling that I've never thought about before. I remember this must be what it feels like to be drowning. And it was almost like a cartoon character in one ear saying that, and then this little character in the other ear said, You are drowning, Taylor. And so that was two stories I was sort of hearing in my head at at the same time. Paige Williams: How do you make sense of that? Thaler Pekar: It's a brand new experience. the the first thing that happened was sort of the gee, this must be what it feels like to be drowning. And thankfully, I had a self-preservation. I mean, we all do had the that kicked in that said, you are drowning and you need to do something. And then I remember saying to myself, just don't take water in. Whatever you do, do not. Take water in and Yeah, it all it all worked out. Paige Williams: Isn't it interesting that As humans we can be going through a terrifying like near-death experience and think, well, this would be one of those situations that would be like that, instead of recognizing that, ⁓ this is the situation, and then maybe that pops in. But I think what's interesting about that is it says a lot about how we understand life through narrative. We don't actually necessarily are in the moment experiencing something, taking in that experience. We can understand our experience through a story we've heard, interpreted, and then maybe down the road we'll realize that, ⁓ we created our own story in that moment. But in the moment, like we're not even connecting necessarily to this is the moment because we live so much in story in our head. Almost like little movies coming out. Thaler Pekar: Yeah, you know. You will like that at the moment I don't think it's fucking I was waiting for you to finish. I'm trying to think of his name now. the great Great He he teaches these books, ⁓ these courses on storytelling. I can't think of his name, but someone smarter than me has said, we cannot make sense of things while they're happening. We only make sense of them afterwards. And and what storytelling is, right? While the emotions are happening, while you're in the car crash, you're not understanding that. ⁓ You're necessarily you're not storifying it while you're in that situation. You create the story afterwards. so your question of how does that story change? We change those stories afterwards. We make sense of them when get new pieces of information and and add on new pieces. I mean, I imagine if if I were to have a religious awakening, I could then say, I was saved by. by ⁓ powers that that whatever powers I would believe in, I ⁓ could add that onto the story, understand it in a completely new way going forward. Yeah, we can't make sense of things while they're happening. We make sense of them afterwards. Paige Williams: That's what makes us unique, right, as humans? Our ability to tell story and make meaning out of what happened to us. Thaler Pekar: Yeah. Paige Williams: So five or six years late or six years later, if I'm following your timeline, you also decided to include narrative and storytelling into your work and went to your brother, who under who teaches ⁓ tell me more but brain science and understand the importance of storytelling. Thaler Pekar: I had always been working with story. I just don't think I knew how good I was at it. I wasn't giving myself the credit for being able to find the small stories that told the big narratives. knew I was great at doing advocacy work and helping people find a story that would push ⁓ the issue forward. the person who exemplified The issue that we were working on. When I was state organizer for the National Aborts Right National Abortion Rights Action League in New Jersey, we were working at that time to stop parental notification in Jersey. And there was a story about a young woman named Becky Bell who had died from an illegal abortion. Because she didn't want to disappoint her parents, a straight day student, head of the cheerleading squad. And that was a story that was being for those advocacy purposes. When I coaching people ⁓ media appearances, I would help them find the story that would invite people in. So I was always innately good at it. I just didn't structure it and talk about it and hang out a shingle saying I do story. I found through knowledge management field I found a lot of people who were working with story in organizations. Stephen Denning had written the secret secret language of leadership, I believe is the title of the book. and I he Putting on these Smithsonian conferences about organizational storytelling that I actually was the opening keynote at co-keynote the last one that they held. so I started there a field that time called, or a sector called applied narrative. And there were all these who were using story in ⁓ business and advocacy and being much more intentional about it. And that was the applied narrative field at the start of the early mid two thousands. Paige Williams: When you think about your own story and how you were raised. Do you think you came out telling stories? Did your parents teach you storytelling? it in your DNA? Is it learned? Is it both? Thaler Pekar: I think it's an all our DNA. I was not from a storytelling house. Paige, I just want to say you've frozen on me. Is it okay? Should I just keep going? Okay. Oddly, Paige Williams: Just keep going, we're okay. Thaler Pekar: Storytelling was not a part of my household. Religion was. We were a very religious household. my was lucky enough that my maternal grandmother lived with us for over 20 years. And that was extraordinary. But they wasn't a storytelling family. I will say that I did realize at some point that all of best friends, ⁓ including the man married, are. Of Irish descent. So I think that I had a dividing rod for wanting this story piece in my life. Paige Williams: What drew you to it? Am I still frozen? Okay. Thaler Pekar: No, you're not. I'm just thinking. I do remember as a kid, I played with dolls ⁓ into my life. And the I stopped playing with dolls, there were entire that were created underneath the ping pong table in the basement. And ⁓ these dolls were affairs and getting divorces, and some of them were having abortions, and like it was, I was totally creating. A Creating stories in my head and out these stories. I I do not know where this comes from. I just Paige Williams: And and stories I would assume against your what I'm assuming is Irish Catholic faith of coming up? Thaler Pekar: No, I grew up as a very observant reform Jew. Paige Williams: ⁓ okay. When you said Irish, I just went to Irish Catholic. So I was like, divorces and abortions in an Irish Catholic household? What the hell is going on there? got all that Thaler Pekar: All my all my friends, my roommate that I lived with for many, many years after college, my best friend who introduced me to my husband, almost all of a lot of friends, I could think of two that are the exception that aren't Irish. Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah. Okay, let me get back to what we were what are we doing? Okay. I think I've already asked you that, I'm kinda okay. So You've worked with leaders and institutions for over three decades. And what have you learned about the stories that organizations tell who they are and how those stories shape behavior, and decision making? And I imagine that that leads us into your trademark narrative gardens. Thaler Pekar: The people need leaders need to see the entire landscape and that we can be seduced into seeing one small piece of it. We can be lazy and see one small piece of it. We can be surrounded by people are only showing us one small piece. One the perversities ⁓ of good at what you do and raise getting higher and higher in in your work is people tend to only tell you what they think you want to hear. And so a large part of my work with senior leaders is them hear the corners, helping them not be And story is a great way to elicit that information that you might not otherwise be hearing. It's a lot better bringing out details underlying the things that don't get said, the the networks that are surprising that might not fit on the org chart, the way that information gets spread in an organization, a of that comes up through story. And a large part of my coaching work is helping smart leaders get ⁓ asking stories. And how they might be able to do that. Paige Williams: Yeah. Organizations often move quickly to strategy, but strategy enacted through the stories that people already believe about the institution, which I because you're saying listening to the stories, what you hear and what you don't hear. believe about the institution, leadership and what change will cost them. What do what does a company need to understand about its existing narrative? Before a new strategy can work or their current strategy. Thaler Pekar: Well, they first have to understand what that existing narrative is, right? The narrative that they might think is the existing narrative might not be the narrative that the streets telling, that the people are telling, that their customers are telling. ⁓ the porousness, understanding that enter stories from different places is always really and and important. to point out as well that there's there's not just one door in. lots of different ways that people find their way into what might be the same story, but they're entering at different points or different places or through different people. Also that they're going to tell a strategy much ⁓ storytelling ⁓ just that is telling I'm going to tell you a story and you are going to hear it and you are going to repeat it or you're going to understand it ⁓ you're to accept it. And at Peacar Partners we talk about story sharing because the I the reality is not just the goal, but the reality is if I tell you a story you're going to hear own story. You're going to connect it to something that you already know. Right. When I talked to you about the almost drowning experience, what came to mind for you? Paige Williams: A moment in my life where I almost died but in a different way. Thaler Pekar: I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm glad that you're here. Dow. and someone else who might have been in Costa Rica would remember that, or someone who doesn't know how to swim would come at that story in a different way. But it's it's sharing because you a story to trigger a story in your listeners' mind, to invite them in to understand. You cannot force ⁓ Paige Williams: Same. Thaler Pekar: A strategy understanding onto someone. And ideally, you're offering a story that somebody can see themselves in, walk around inside of, want be a part of. And that's the ultimate goal in sharing a successful strategy story is making That it can be internalized that they're it's sticky to the people that it resonates with them at at some point. I a lot about continuity stories that and stories ⁓ are continuity or can be a continuity story, right? We don't like change. We say we don't like change, even though we change all the time, right? We get married, we get divorced, we move, there's changes happening. Constantly. But those stories about we've done this and so we're going to do this and it makes sense. You know, we've done this and because of that, we're going to do this. you're telling a continuity story and you're taking me through it. And I'm I'm not going to resist it. I'm I'm going to be pulled along. And with the senior leaders I work with who are visionary and and telling stories about a future and a vision, it's pulling people into seeing themselves there and how they can participate in that solution that's going to be offered in the future. Paige Williams: So you're really saying senior leadership, let's tell a great story that brings everyone ⁓ the strategy, that brings everyone along so that they can d identify. Thaler Pekar: And might be several stories. And and and there might be different protagonists, right? You might tell a story, Paige Williams: Yeah. Continuity. Thaler Pekar: Your your narrative. So I use the term narrative to talk about the big story. And then there are the the smaller stories underneath that that support that bigger narrative. the let's say you ⁓ are the of giant This strategy story that you're going share. with your tenured professors be different than the strategy story you're going to share with your the of your incoming freshmen, which might be different than the story that's being shared with your alumni that you're fundraising with. There's different that will all support the one big narrative, but understanding that Different people are going to hear and resonate in different ways, so trying to Give them the most resonant small story that attaches to the big narrative. Paige Williams: And in that case, is the big narrative the the mission statement, is it a shared value, a shared goal? Is it the vision of the dean who sets the narrative? Thaler Pekar: It can be it can be all different things d depending on the context that we're that we're talking about. Paige Williams: Have you seen an organization attempt to change its strategy without first recognizing or revising the underlying story holding its culture in place? And if so, what happened? Thaler Pekar: Immediately two stories have come to mind, but I'm not sure they're exactly answering your question. ⁓ Okay. thought about an organization that I worked with that I came in. We my ⁓ also has a trademarked communication process called Heart, Head and Hand. And a framework for motivational and persuasive communication or invitational communication. And Paige Williams: Okay, just tell me anyway. Thaler Pekar: I was teaching everybody in this financial firm this process and training them on it, and it became the way in which they were all communicating with each other and could hold each other accountable to communication as well. And kept a story about how afraid people were to present. to the partners because somebody would get fired. There's a story about the person who got fired because they said one thing wrong. I heard it over and over again and and everyone used this as the fear for why they wouldn't speak up because they had to be perfect when they spoke. And the truth was that firing never happened, Paige. It was Paige Williams: It was just a wives tell, it just kept t getting told over and over. It wasn't real. Thaler Pekar: Yeah. Paige Williams: How did the company correct that? Thaler Pekar: Yeah. Yes. so I went the senior leadership and we then developed a plan my com's training work and through the communication of senior leadership to that issue. That's a story you want to tamp down on. A story that you you actually you wanna pull out, a story you wanna weed out ⁓ because it was untrue and didn't exist. that's in contrast another organization that had a story about And it was, yeah, president that we want to innovate, but every idea that we bring to him, he squashes. And so we claim we're an innovative but we're really not. That was a story from a previous CEO, not from the current one. So that too was a story that needed to be addressed and corrected. The other thing that you have me thinking of I had the unbelievable honor ⁓ of 178 oral for Chuck Feeney's Atlantic Philanthropies. Chuck Feeney founded the duty free shops and he gave away $9 billion during his lifetime. And the central mechanism is was a foundation. That no longer exists called the Atlantic Philanthropies that was sunsetting. And over five and a half years, I traveled to six different countries on four different continents and gathered these stories. all of these are archived at Cornell, and they are there for other sunsetting foundations to about how to ⁓ ⁓ there's also tremendous stories about all the work that he did in all the different countries and and the incredible big bets that Atlantic made. and here an organization that when I started gathering these was very different than when I ended gathering stories. Because In many of the countries where it worked there wasn't a philanthropic field a sector. So people were going to lose their jobs and it was they were not going to find another job doing what they had been doing and and doing very well and at a really high level of risk and and frankly very well reimbursed for as well. So there was unbelievable and the unknown when we started out. And then that changed over those five and a half years. And the simple of those stories and sharing those stories with the staff, because as we collected them, we made Compilations of them that were shown the staff. And so they were seeing and doing collective sense making to understand this meant to the entire organization and what it meant to them individually. ⁓ And it a beautiful journey and long story to be a part of and to populate with 178 swallow stories. Paige Williams: How did you change as a result of listening to those stories? Thaler Pekar: I really like talking to people. I really like hearing people's stories. I feel deeply honored. I have been doing it for three weeks in, guess I I'd been on the road for two weeks gathering stories in Ireland and Northern Ireland. And then I went to England and saw very, very good friend. And I said, I'm dreaming in in Irish. Like I'm dream, I've got a brogue in my head. ⁓ She said, You're of your Mind that you're listening to so many stories in such an intense period of time. How did I change? I've gotten very good at gathering oral histories. Love and deeply respect the ability to Sit back and say to someone, this is your seat, you're you're the king. I'm I'm here to listen. I, behalf your organization who's me to speak with you, being given all of the space and time to think and reflect and sense in the moment because. You're respected and what you think about matters. when you give people that kind of opportunity and respect, are forever changed. Their commitment to the organization is much deeper. The story that they're going to tell about their relationship to the organization, that their impact on the organization, the organization's impact on them. is incredibly toned and the oral history work's one of the the greatest joys. I I d in addition to Atlantic Philanthropies, I've done large oral history projects for other organizations. And that ability to celebrate and voice the ⁓ of an organization and let people think alongside each other is extraordinary. It's invaluable. Paige Williams: As I go around a hundred stories and listening to a hundred stories, what advice would you give me in to be a better listener? What does it take to listen to narrative? Thaler Pekar: Feeling I'm feeling very well heard, Paige. Please know that. Oftentimes people have never been asked what's the story, or what do you think about that? You've been surprising me, and I do this for a living, and and I've had to think extra hard about what you're asking me. understanding people ⁓ may saying something for the very first time, they're putting sentences together that they've never put together before. So letting them react to what they're saying is more important even than you're reacting to it. Paige Williams: How do you think it changes a person to be heard in that way? Thaler Pekar: This This is the question I would like to ask everyone all the time. did some listening research and shocked, even the the point of the research this was in some ways the thesis, but I was at the degree which. People themselves not heard. And until they feel listened to, they cannot listen to somebody else. Paige Williams: Repeat that, please. Thaler Pekar: Until you feel fully heard yourself, you're incapable of hearing somebody else completely. And the Small amounts of time that people report being heard. Some people are in absolutely wonderful marriages or or relationships and you know, if I say how much great listening time do you get each week? They you know, they would say an hour, two hours, or every night my partner listens to me. Other people would say, You mean besides my therapist? None. And far too many people would say, ten minutes? ⁓ did not feel heard as individuals. So would really like to ask everybody, what does it feel like to be fully heard? And so I'm going to ask you, what does it feel like to you? You you're you're doing this project where you're putting ⁓ the microphone on other people and listening to them, but what does it feel like to you, Paige, when you're fully Paige Williams: I'm amazed when people ask me a question about myself because I'm a really good listener. And I find that it's true that many people aren't heard. And so often I'm the listening seat. And I love the listening seat. I'm a documentary filmmaker. Thaler Pekar: Are you the person who always leaves the party and is like, ⁓ my God, I heard the craziest things tonight. So and so told me this and so and so told me that this and this and this and people are like Paige Williams: No. I'm the person who says, I'm sorry I can't come to your party. I'm such an introvert. But when I get asked a question, I just feel seen and that recognition makes me feel more whole. What does it feel like when someone Sees you and asks you a question about your life. Thaler Pekar: Yeah, it's feeling seeing. there's wonderful again, I'll find this and you can put it in the show notes. The person I want to make sure I get the name right, who talks about having doorknobs on them. And there are some people who do not converse with doorknobs. They're just talking at you. And there are other people who it's all about doorknobs and and how do you open it. And ⁓ I think what I'm hearing you say is you're very much like me. often have a long conversation I'll I will be in conversation with somebody and I'm such a good listener. They never ask me anything about myself because they're they're so happy to be heard. And sometimes they just are blowhards and they're just talking and talking and talking, but oftentimes People yeah, cherish somebody actually being curious. Paige Williams: So the doorknob represents curiosity. Thaler Pekar: And generosity? And graciousness. Paige Williams: So when we're thinking about building the field and the understanding of narrative intelligence We're really like this this dialogue we just had, I'm struck by much it is both about sharing ⁓ also about listening. And so If we think about the narrative quotient and increasing narrative intelligence as if we were going to increase our emotional intelligence, might think about our ability to listen and our listening skills in order to increase narrative intelligence. That would be a requirement. Thaler Pekar: And listening to stories a requirement. So it's this was a a book that didn't get picked up by a publisher who asked me for a book on listening, and I outlined and and delivered entire proposal on a book on listening. But I and I said We're told to listen, for stories. And incredibly Because again, you're allowing to make sense of things. You're hearing more details you ask for a You can uncover paradox. Which everybody has paradox and and to get back to an earlier question when you asked about what makes you a good listener, it's inviting and inviting people to be their ⁓ messy, nuanced, paradoxical selves. But learning how to ask for stories, think, is an incredible skill set to narrative leadership. Paige Williams: And then the properties that leadership contain curiosity, generosity, gratitude. Well, you said graciousness. Thaler Pekar: I think there's courage in there too. Because I always say, I that I'm doing an oral history project or any listening project, because I'll do deep listening projects ⁓ with sometimes to ⁓ develop narrative framework for them, to develop mission statement. I did a wonderful project with a group last year that Paige Williams: Courage. Thaler Pekar: ⁓ the smartest people, hardest project I ever did because they were the smartest people I'd worked with. I kept thinking, they know th there's something hidden because of all the surface answers they have had, and they're not sufficing to them. So we dug deeper and deeper and deeper and listened harder and harder. But there's a a courage. When what I'm hearing doesn't make sense, when things are contradicting, then I know I'm doing it right. If I'm hearing the same thing over and over and over again, not getting to the truth of what's really happening. I'm not letting really be heard. It's only when it's messy and contradictory and that and when a leader the courage ⁓ to hear things that they never heard before that might go against the status quo that I think they've really developed their narrative intelligence. Paige Williams: When you work with leaders, you help them have courage to hear stories? Cause I'm sure that goes to self worth if they're the visionary. Thaler Pekar: Yes. Yes. And the clients who choose to work with me. are willing to step into that courage, that courageous place and that confidence. Paige Williams: Would that Would that courage and confidence be a part of narrative intelligence? If you can hear feedback in order to change through story? ⁓ that's new. To me, not to you. Thaler Pekar: Yes, absolutely. Paige Williams: want to go back to something you said that I think was really important. said they're really smart, which means ⁓ they have high narrative intelligence because everyone's telling the same story in order to keep the status quo. So they're smart in keeping status quo, but that does mean that they're deep into the narrative. Thaler Pekar: the group that I was talking about is a wonderful organization in New York called Greater New York. And they create these Outstanding between nonprofit leaders ⁓ private sector and government sector leaders. And weren't, not super smart because everyone's telling the same story and they're hearing the status quo. They're super smart because they're super smart people brilliant work outside of the box. one else is doing they're doing. They might take two years to create the right match these leaders who then have Are transformed in in their leadership by working with each other, by partnering each other. And made the job so hard is they they asked us to come in and help develop a narrative framework and All the the easy answers they would have had already. So that's what I mean when I say they're they were they were just really smart people and I led my team in thinking deeply and listening and and doing intense sense making to to realize there was something under the surface because they knew everything that was ⁓ on. on the surface and we needed to come up with something more surprising for them. Paige Williams: So would you say that you can have incredibly smart people doing incredibly valuable work and they can still have room to develop their nar narrative intelligence? Thaler Pekar: ⁓ yeah. I mean, to to get back to your earlier story, your earlier question, right? Stories change all the time. Our understanding of stories change all the time. in an organizational setting, there are new people coming in, there are new projects, there are new products, the the look the we're operating in now, in terms of the economics and the tariffs and the the entire systems in which we're operating are are changing all of the time. So the sense making is ongoing and wisdom cumulative. And the more people you talk to, the more you have and the more understanding of different entry points you have. Paige Williams: In your experience, why is it so important for smart organizations to get better at sense making? Which we might call narrative their narrative intelligence. Thaler Pekar: Trying to think so your su the supposition I'm hearing you say is that the incredibly smart organizations aren't good at the sense making of ⁓ Paige Williams: Now why is it important for them to get really good at it? Like why is why is this so important? Why why is this your life's work? Thaler Pekar: Really believe that people deserve to be heard and understood and to hear and understand others. I believe that story a tool for. being heard and understanding So I am I lean into applying narrative lots of different ways that people understand themselves, can listen to other people, can think about solve problems, can can think potentiality and possibility. Paige Williams: I knew this was gonna be a good interview because I haven't been able to ask questions like this of anyone because no one I'm talking to, know, it's like this is off the record, but like I can ask them questions about their story, but really about why it matters. Like ⁓ why this why building intelligence in this field is so important to me, you know, and to you. So I really am valuing this time together, thank you. I'm taking in a lot. Like just so you know, like I'm it's you sharing with me, it's exactly ⁓ what intended to do, is that it's making more meaning me for even what I'm I feel. Like we're putting words and meaning onto what I feel that I know to be true, which is what you said. that it is so important for people to be heard and to tell their stories. And and then I went to, why? Well, perhaps it's because where we transform. Thaler Pekar: Yeah. Yes. Paige Williams: So when I tell my story, you ask me a question, I tell you a little bit, I feel seeing, that makes me feel better. That me versus disconnection and loneliness. Thaler Pekar: Yes. just I'll I'll go back to the very beginning. You asked me about ⁓ a that helped me t s start in career and I talked about tabling in in Hoboken and then going to work a public affairs director, I worked all over the world, I started my own business twenty my own firm 21 years ago. And I've continued to work ⁓ worldwide and and done more story work by doing the oral history work. And I've come full circle and I just started something called the Miles Square Conversation. Hoboken is called the Mile Square City. And ⁓ I brought people together in June to stories, to to each each other and share stories about their ⁓ experiences the city. I didn't call it story sharing because I didn't want people to ⁓ think was a moth-like performative story event. I just said there are no opinions. We're talking experiences here. And It was extraordinary to see the transformation in the room. The next morning, somebody wrote me and said, my God, I just said hello to a neighbor that I've never said hello to. Good job, Thaler. And I just believe in a changing In in the changing crazy world we're in, your neighbors and connected that way matters so much. And understanding That people are so unlike you. And that's so fantastic. always say, you know, we don't go places. I always get mad when people would travel and they'd come home and they'd say, the people were so nice. The people were nice. Like, like there aren't nice people everywhere. And we don't Go places to do exactly what we're doing home. We go on vacation and travel to shake it up, to see things differently. And so we talk about commonality as being a goal. And this goes back to sort of the turn of the century that I was talking about, and what I think was a mistake in communication ⁓ to the common values, to find the commonality. And I think that's different than finding a resonant story and and how you can attach to each other's understanding We might connect on commonality, but we really crave difference. and opening up the space for that is really important. Paige Williams: Mm. Okay. Where are we at? What time is it? Two o'c whoa. Great. Okay. Thaler Pekar: I'm looking at my notes if there was anything. I have a couple of stories. I I have more stories if you I could also stop. Paige Williams: Yeah. Thaler Pekar: Your call page. Paige Williams: What story do you have there that would teach us the most about narrative intelligence or storytelling and its power? Thaler Pekar: Paige, you had asked me about the ethics that we need to consider in story work and asking people for their stories. And think incredibly important that we understand you can't take ownership over somebody's story. in ⁓ oral we talk about rolling consent and letting people come back years later and say, you know, the the I'm seeing this story or the way I'm seeing myself, I I want to. rescind the consent that I gave for this story be shared. And people about rolling consent being the most ethical form of consent. But I was of a story, I was in South Africa and I was in the township in Just go back. I was in South Africa and was interviewing some a who ⁓ had come another African ⁓ nation to Africa, who was who was gay and had actually in gotten a not sanctioned but a had his partner. in this other country through a a small ceremony, people out and he had to flee in the middle of the night because he and his family were were at risk. And I scheduled interview him ⁓ and I got his in the morning with my crew and he said, ⁓ I can't be on camera telling this story. This is way too dangerous for you know Is this going to be shown anywhere? I was like, well, yes, this is a a film that's being made that will be shown on on the web. I he really wanted to be heard. He needed to tell the story, and that's why he had said yes to the initial outreach. And so working with wonderful we Filmed his hands he told the story. And the end he was crying and hugged me and was so happy he could be heard, but we had to create a safe way for that to happen for him. So ⁓ balancing his with his desire to tell the story and also the importance of the story for people to understand the bigger narrative of the organization that was working on gay refugee rights in in South Africa. Paige Williams: Mm. Well What did it do to you to see him be able to tell that story and cry and get it out and a part of that be a catalyst of change for his ⁓ storytelling Thaler Pekar: So honored and so grateful the who share stories with me, who trust me to share their stories and Honored and that my clients Trust me to to hold those stories and to treat them and to walk away and not hear it if if that was the right call to have been made at the time. and proud my clients who understand the importance ⁓ of of story of of l letting people be heard and sharing those stories with the world and not just the perfectly crafted stories, but the real messy stuff makes people as beautiful as they are. Paige Williams: I don't know that I'm gonna include this, but that's why I'm not so scared about AI. Cause AI doesn't have lived experience and story. It only learns from our stories. It can never live a story, it can never you a story, it can never make a documentary film about their life. Thaler Pekar: Yeah. that's a whole nother conversation. I mean, I I wonder that, and I think know, people are gonna have glasses on, they're gonna be hearing lots of stories, they're gonna be recording stories, they could pull up those stories. I'm Someone showed me story and how he prompted ⁓ to write a story for him for a presentation that he was doing to create a character. In fact, the character was named Paige, to create this character and And f tell AI how he wanted the other characters to respond. So I yes we must remain vigilant. Paige Williams: Love it. Okay. my final question. Well, is there anything I haven't asked you that I should have before I ask you when you hear the phrase narrative intelligence, what does it mean to you? How would you define it? Thaler Pekar: no, I think we talked I think we talked about everything. I I talked about hearing for, listening for, yeah. ⁓ Paige Williams: Okay, great. Okay. Okay. When you hear the phrase narrative intelligence, does it mean to you? How you define it? Thaler Pekar: I think of it as the ability to hear and listen for stories, ⁓ ask for stories, to understand we're operating within the context of stories, that people and organizations are operating within that. to recognize that ⁓ story is an and an output. I think that that's the difference of narrative intelligence to just being a storytelling organization or storyteller. you when you have narrative intelligence, you're it you recognize story as as input and output, as process and product. Paige Williams: Talked with David a few times since you introduced us. The man only speaks in story. ⁓ Thaler Pekar: ⁓ really? It's been a while. I had a wonderful afternoon hanging out with him in ⁓ California with ⁓ my friend Victoria. Really? Everything's a story? ⁓ now I feel like Paige Williams: Everything's a story. I did this social impact research. ⁓ I'm still doing it. We moved into phase two, but for Anderson's organization, Imagination Factory, where we're looking at innovation in child welfare and what it's out and then creating the levers w ⁓ you for social change. And I interviewed a few people and he was one of ⁓ and everything I asked every answer was a story. There was no opinion, it was only experience. Thaler Pekar: Yeah. Well he's a therapist. Paige Williams: I love what you said about that, opinion versus experience. Thaler Pekar: And he's a therapist, so going to not give opinion, he's going to share a story with you so you think of he triggers a story in your own mind. He knows the power of ⁓ story to. To elicit a story in the listener's mind and the richness of what that elicits rather than a message or an opinion or a fact. But if I wrap it up in a story, it's Cynthia Kurtz, who's wrote an series of books ⁓ called Working with Stories and has been an enormous impact. on my thinking of my life, absolutely brilliant thinker. she talks about a story being a gift and and it's this gift-wrapped package and process unwrapping it, ⁓ the process the anticipation, the making sense of it, the holding it, the touching it. Yeah, it's I I'm thinking of the improv games where we do gift giving. Yeah, th there's a lot of richness. Paige Williams: If you were to think of the people in your life who you know and think about how you just define narrative intelligence, who do you know who has a high narrative intelligence and what traits do they have makes you say that about them? Thaler Pekar: I can say that one of my clients with whom I've been working for four and a half years, I have seen his narrative intelligence develop and it's extraordinary. And his ability at a senior level of leadership to the context, to to see the narrative landscape now is extraordinary. And he didn't have that when we started. He had the courage and the curiosity and the smarts to into it and he and he wanted to develop it. And he has realized the benefit of of leaning in to narrative intelligence and that that's an absolute joy. The other person I would say my husband Tom has incredible narrative intelligence practical completely of hypocrisy Because he knows the story he's living in and that other people have their own stories he's so eager define everybody to fit into the a story that he's telling. Paige Williams: So true. identify that high narrative intelligence generally means a person who does not judge others very much or very often. Because they can step into the shoes of that person or or understand that they carry their own story. Thaler Pekar: And that that story's changeable. Paige Williams: Yes, important. Who else should I learn from on this journey of mine? Thaler Pekar: We think about that. There's a social science researcher, I think ⁓ or a social psychologist, I'm trying to think of what his specialty is, but Nicholas Epley. Nicholas Epley has a new book out now that I cannot think of what the title is offhand. but it's a really interesting book about how people don't talk to strangers because they ⁓ Overestimate that they don't the the stranger doesn't want to talk to them, the stranger won't find them interesting, the stranger doesn't want to be in conversation. And it's a wonderful book. And his previous book called Mindwise a really pivotal book in my life because he talks about how we cannot make assumptions about people. We can only ask. Because when we make assumptions, we're bringing all of our own bias. assumption we're making is about us. ⁓ not about the other person. That's that's our mind putting it together. So much better off asking people outright. A a really simple example of and I'm gonna get the numbers wrong, is when you ask couples. Paige Williams: Mm-hmm. Thaler Pekar: what does one of them want as a birthday present? The percentage of people getting it wrong is huge. way more than 50%, as opposed to just asking the person what what they really want. Yeah. and presumption, it's just all our own bias. And we need to off of that and ask for a story instead. Paige Williams: Do you know Nicholas? Thaler Pekar: I don't. Paige Williams: Okay. Is there anyone in your network who you think I should interview? This isn't for the interview. No, that's okay. Thaler Pekar: ⁓ sorry. ⁓ I can't think of anyone offhand, but I'll keep thinking about it. I mean, yeah. Paige Williams: That's okay. Keep thinking. Yeah, David was such a great intro. I really appreciate that. You've kind of already done your work there. You checked that box. if there is anyone else you're thinking, ⁓ that'd be good. okay. I'm gonna just do a little outro to help to make sure I have something to end us on. Thaler Pekar: I mean ⁓ I thought of one other I had one other story here, but it's okay. Paige Williams: Go ahead. Thaler Pekar: You would ask me about stories that change I I don't know if this matters. Never mind. Never mind. It's good. I have told myself that I can't sing. I can't sing. my very generous. He says, you're not tone deaf, because you know that you're not on tone. Paige Williams: Sure. Okay. Thaler Pekar: So I took a couple of singing lessons earlier this year and it was transformative. And I learned that I can tones sometimes. that if I was willing to put in ⁓ the I could So it shifted from I guess a ⁓ about I will be able to sing to a story about with applied real effort and intent, I can eventually sing happy birthday. Paige Williams: Did it take you a lot of courage to go have voice lessons? Thaler Pekar: ⁓ yeah. I re huge. I remember I didn't even tell my husband the first one. I just said, I'm going out to do something now. A lot of courage. And I'd like to learn. I just I I need to yeah, I will. And I will someday. Paige Williams: awesome. Thaler, thank you so wait, I'm gonna start again. Sorry. Thaler, thank you so much for this conversation. It has been enlightening and I've enjoyed learning from you today. Thaler Pekar: Paige, thank you. You've got me thinking about things I had not thought about, doing my own sense making. wanna thank you too for the narrative assessment tool. I think I've taken it three times and learned something every single time. And Here for you. Pleasure to see what you're doing and to see where it continues to go. Paige Williams: May I ask, did you learn from the narrative assessment tool? This is at storykeys.co. I've this assessment, just so our audience knows, where you can go take a pretty deep assessment. It takes about 40 minutes to do all three parts and learn more about your story archetype, etc. So did you from it? What did you learn? Thaler Pekar: They were not questions I had asked myself. So slowing down think about the answers to the questions ⁓ The nuances between some of the questions is really interesting. And I think the first time I took it, I took it very quickly. And I said to you, I'm going to take it again. Very thereafter, I took it again and was much more deliberate in taking it. taking my time. And then I took it a third time in in preparation to meet with you today. It's not my favorite tool because you're not asking for stories. And I, of course, want to to offer up stories as as an answer to any deep question. but it is It's a lot of fun and it it's a gift leaders think about how they think. Paige Williams: You know, the problem with the assessment you you hit it. I wanna say, you know, okay, tell me a story that does this, right? But I couldn't figure out a way yet. to able to make sense of that story with technology that actually like honors the person's story and gives it back to them. Because it's almost like it requires a human on the other side of that question ⁓ be able to bring back to them in a meaningful way. Thaler Pekar: Well, you've just hit on the co-creative aspect of storytelling, right? Or of story sharing. That it takes really leaning in and listening. It takes somebody, as said earlier, to acknowledge that you a little space right now to make sense of this yourself and build on ⁓ it. And And say, ⁓ wait, let me say that a different way, or let me add to that, or you know, I said that as the first answer, but I'm really thinking that it's this now. so that kind of spaciousness, which is both physical and cognitive spaciousness. And that's one of the things that I work with in organizations to create that as well. This ⁓ Paige Williams: Yeah. Because you know, I was thinking about it, you know, you can you can take an emotional intelligence assessment, you could take Myers Briggs, you can human design is based on when you're born, where you're born, at what time, like, you know, that's very different. Enneagram and all of them are fill in the blank. I mean not fill in the blank, sorry, multiple choice, right? To take the assessment. But problem with I feel like those assessments and also my own assessment, because I'm caught in a circular logical faulty equation, is that our story is always changing. Therefore, our narrative intelligence should always be changing. Or our sense, our sense making of our story as evolves, our narrative intelligence evolves. So we shouldn't be able to stay in the same place. So For example, our Enneogram should always be the same. ⁓ Briggs would rarely change unless we had a really transformative like I used to test as an INTJ when I was a founder in technology ⁓ I took on an identity of the solo founder, very masculine, going out with a vision to raise capital. And then I realized my true identity through some sense making I made about myself and who I am today versus who I was. Thaler Pekar: Yeah. Paige Williams: I had a limited I had limited sense of who I truly was. And so that changed my Myers Briggs when I went back and filled out the questions. Thaler Pekar: Wonderful. ⁓ Paige Williams: I wanna take this assessment and put it through rigorous What would I call that, Taylor? Rigorous testing in an institution to say what's not working here, what does work here, what are we not thinking of, how might we collect stories in order to really give us our sense of narrative intelligence? Thaler Pekar: And look forward here, what's the fair system? The other thing you're helping me realize, Paige, is I think as our narrative intelligence develops, we realize that stories aren't linear. And they're not even necessarily circular. They might be spiral. They might be squiggly. They can take on all different shapes. that's huge part of developing ⁓ narrative And I Perhaps some people think ⁓ that means I'm gonna see a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. But might be a really and there may be no end. Yeah. Paige Williams: In fact you've said several times, I'm looking for the messy 'cause that's where the honesty is. That's where w that's what I heard. You didn't say that word honesty, but that's where the truth is. That's where the the perhaps the gold is. Thaler Pekar: fornomal and like the messy when I'm I have large collections of stories. If if I'm hearing if every story has the same beat and the same tone, then I know that that's wrong. But own individuals and our own stories are totally squiggly or could be circular or could be spiraled. Paige Williams: If you're in a c culture, a company culture, where you're hearing the same story over and over, could that be because of a lack of diversity and equity? Or do you mean something different? Thaler Pekar: R No, I mean that, but I also ⁓ people being silenced, people being afraid to speak up. hearing I'm ⁓ I'm big believer in pronouns too, you know, are are people telling I stories or we stories? And when hear a lot of stories, sometimes that can be sometimes that could be bad if it's high of mind. I remember once I was in a organization and they said, ⁓ yeah, we celebrate mistakes here. We're a real learning organization. And when you make a mistake, ⁓ you stand and you say, I made a mistake, and you get wear a feather boa, and you wear that feather boa all day. And that's what we believe that we make mistakes. And one young woman elbowed me and said, CEO's never worn the boa. Paige Williams: What'd you do about that? Thaler Pekar: I was just it I wasn't there working. There wasn't anything I I could do about that. What did I do about that? I got a great story that I used to illustrate ⁓ Pie of Mind. ⁓ s it Paige Williams: What do you have done about that? What would you have done about that? If they were a client? Thaler Pekar: d would have talked about the narrative landscape and probably sure I would have needed to present the information to the CEO in a way that ⁓ could have heard it. and and thought hard about that. Probably used the narrative garden to help her see it. It was a long time ago. Paige Williams: That just says everything. You wanna talk about the narrative garden we didn't Thaler Pekar: No, no, it's okay. I think I said enough about it in there. It's pretty good. Paige Williams: Okay. Taylor, you so much for this enlightening conversation. It's been such a gift and such a joy to learn from you. Thaler Pekar: Fun to hang out with you today, Paige. Paige Williams: Any time. Okay, I'm gonna push stop record.