Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S5 E6 Interview with James Altgelt - Good Cops, Bad Cops

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S5 E6 Interview with James Altgelt - Good Cops, Bad Cops · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Hello, love, lies, and welcome to True Crime and Wine Time.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I am Terry true Crime in case this is your
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: first time joining us, and I guess I need to
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: let y'all know tonight it's just me. JT is not
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: feeling well, but just between you and me, I guess
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: in the universe, I'm kind of wondering if he was
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: scared to interview a former cop, and now me is
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: wondering does he got an active warrant? And do I
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: need to do some deep diving into my co host now? Seriously, guys,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: he is not feeling well, so you are stuck with
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: me for tonight, but I promise it will be entertaining
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: as always and we have a fabulous guest. Now. To
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: get all of the details out of the way, please
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: remember to like subscribe and hit the notification bell, and
• 1:07
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• 1:10
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• 1:15
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• 1:18
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• 1:23
  Speaker 1: So we are having a member's only show next Friday,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the twenty first, at eight o'clock Central and nine o'clock Eastern.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: And there goes the dog barking like she is not
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: supposed to. But that's okay. We're gonna keep going. So also,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: just to remind you, guys, True Crime and Mind Time
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: is doing an in person live show on May third
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: at Hamilton Pool Vineyard in Farms in Dripping Springs, Texas. Guys,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I've said this one thousand times. Basically, it's Austin. To me,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: it is, but we will be on the stage and
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: the vineyard has picked for us the shocking case of
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: the Austin, Texas yogurt shop murders. So if you don't
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: know anything about that case and you're in the area,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: definitely come and visit us now. Tickets are officially on
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: sale right now, so don't wait to grab yours. They
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: are on sale I believe until midnight on March fifteenth,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: so you want to try to get them while they're
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: a little bit cheaper now Tonight, I decided to be extra,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: which I know anyone that is a normal viewer is
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: not surprised. I am drinking a black box rose, but
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I have a wild hibiscus flower that's marinated in rose syrup. Guys.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: It's really cool. But here is what it says. It's
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: a tribute to the eternal romance of the rose. It's
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: a glorious feminine indulgence for your champagne or rose. It
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: adds a bit of flowery taste with a hint of sweet,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: and guys, I will tell you it smells heavenly. It's
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: the first time I've done it in a rose. I
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: used it on Valentine's Day for our party in Champagne.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: But guys, this might be my new thing. And it
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: truly I've even brought my little things. It is truly
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: a hibiscus flower. Now I've heard you can eat them,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: but I haven't done that. So just know I decided
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: to be a little extra tonight. Tonight, guys, it's gonna
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: be a great night. We have some great questions. We
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: have a great guest. If you have any questions, you
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: can put them in the chat. We will save them
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: for the end of our interview tonight so that we
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: don't break the flow. But tonight, I am honored to
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: have James ault Guelt, who is a retired police officer.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: I am not going to reach all his dossier because
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: it's vast, and he's going to share some insight into
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: his career in law enforcement. And how law enforcement has
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: changed over the years. So hello James, and welcome.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Terry. I appreciate you inviting me on the show.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: I am glad to have you here. It's exciting and
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: hopefully it's okay that I didn't read out all of
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: your experience, because it's a lot. Even somebody who knows
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: you didn't realize how vast it was. So I appreciate
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: you taking the time to be with us. So to
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: get started, the first thing I always like to start with,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about you in
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: a brief overview of your career in law enforcement.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I started my law enforcement career at a young age
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: and I went into the police Academy at age twenty.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: During my time at the academy, they changed the state
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: law that said you had to be twenty one to
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: be a peace officer in the state of Texas. I
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: was grandfathered, and so I started my peace officer career
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: in Barritt County, which is San Antonio, Texas, is the
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: county seat. As a peace officer. I actually started my
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: law enforcement career though, as a dispatcher jailer Michael County
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Sheriff's Office. So when I started as a peace officer.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: I wasn't old enough to buy my handgun. I wasn't
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: old enough to buy my handgun ammunition. I couldn't even
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: legally drink alcohol in the state of Texas, but I
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: could enforce the laws and carry the gun wherever I
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: wanted to, just as long as somebody got it for
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: me at first. And so that was started off in
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, nineteen eighty six, actually in nineteen eighty
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: six eighty five eighty six, and I've worked for a
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: civil service sheriff's office, a non civil service sheriff's office,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: a civil service police department, and a non civil service
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: police department. And did a little over eight and a
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: half years on active duty in the United States Air
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Force as a security Back then it was called security
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: policeman its security forces. I did that for a short
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: term and then was accepted to the Airport Office's Special Investigation.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: So I've seen law enforcement on the military, federal side,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: as well as on the state side in Texas.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Man, Now I have to tell you, I am shot
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: to first of all, learn you have to be twenty
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: one in Texas to be a police officer, because we
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: let people go into the military at eighteen and have guns.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: So I guess it's different on the state level.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: You know, that's the law when I went in. I've
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: been out of the law enforcement for a little over
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: five years now, and so I can't say what what
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: it is. You can you can be a jailer, I believe,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: at a younger age. But that was the big concern,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: and I was worried when I graduated the academy if
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: the sheriff of Bear County at that time what actually
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: deputized me or made me wait the extra six months
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: for me to turn twenty one.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: So well, and this just just popped in my head.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: So basically, you were grandfathered at the age of twenty
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: And I don't know anyone else who's been labeled grandfather
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: that young. So that just hit my little brain. I'm like,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: wait a minute.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Now, what is the difference between civil service and nonsense
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: and non civil service departments?
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Well, civil services has rules and make sure that there is.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: It diffuses the good old boy system, if you will, right, So,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: you have to take a civil service test. You have
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: to pass the Civil Service test. The Civil Service Commission
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: has get some advised that every step in the application
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: process as far as we dropped all kilt because he
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: failed his written test, or he failed his physical fitness
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: test or his background investigation or his oral interview or
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: his polygraph if the department requires one. They have to
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: put out advanced notice for study materials for promotional tests
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: and give you advanced warning for promotional tests. And then
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: so you're promoted based on those aspects. And then so
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: the hiring process is there, and then the firing process
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: is also that you have to be fired for just cause,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: and there is a even though Texas is an app
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: will and deployment state, in civil service, you have arbitration
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: and you have a right to appeal and work those cases.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: And I've seen there's been very few circumstances where I've
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: seen an officer terminated in a civil service department that
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: shouldn't have been terminated, seeing several get their jobs back
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: that shouldn't have gotten their jobs back. So that side
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: cuts both ways. The non civil service, they can hire
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: me on any day that they want to, They can
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: promote me on any day that they want to. They
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: can promote me for any reason, but they can also
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: demote me for any reason where it's a civil service department.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: That's not the case on a civil service department. You're
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: protected up to a certain rank and grade. On the
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: non civil service department, but the chief or a new
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: chief can come in, or a new sheriff can come
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: in and decide that he's going to bring his whole
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: family in and let everybody else go. So working in
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: a civil service department can give you the comfort to
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: believe that you can enforce the law equally and fairly
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and not worry about who you write a ticket to,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: who you arrest, or who you do not arrest, whereas
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: in a non civil service department sometimes that comes into bear,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: that comes into play. Excuse me as far as who
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: are you encountering and what are the political ramific case
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: of what you do or do not do well.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know why, but I thought all law enforcement
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: in Texas was civil service. So I don't know why
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: I thought that, but that's what I had in my brain.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: I didn't That's why I asked. I didn't know there
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: was a difference. This is one reason why I like
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: to have people like you on the show, because you
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: can teach an old lady new tricks. Because I did
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: not know that. This whole time, I thought all law
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: enforcement in Texas were civil servants.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: So we're public servants by.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Public servants, but I thought they were also civil So
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I thought because I always looked at civil I was like, Oh,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: it's kind of like a union, so to speak. But
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: it's not a union. But there's a little bit more rules.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: You just can't walk in and say bye, right thing. Okay, Now,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: what motivated you at such a young age to want
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: to go into law enforcement?
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Well, you know a couple of things. Number one was,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: is I like the challenge of not knowing what your
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: day is going to be and having something different every day.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: I actually started college to be an accountant, and after
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: a short lived time, I decided that while I like
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: crunching numbers, I don't know if I want to do
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: that every day on the same day for the same
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: account or the same type of accounts. And really serving
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: your community means a lot to me. And going out
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: there helping the people that that that are being taken
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: advantage of, that can't help themselves, that are going through
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: difficult situations really fed my soul, if you will. And
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: with something that that that I enjoyed and and and
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: continue to work in public service my entire life.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: So I will say a lot of things are clicking
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: now in my brain when you said accounting and then,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I also didn't realize that we had that in common
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: because that was what I went to school for as well,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: was to be an accountant. And I lasted six months
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: in accounting after getting out, and I wanted to slit
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: my wrist because you can't lock me in a room
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: with just numbers all day. You can't. I need something different.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: So I never knew we had that in common. Now,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: what and how do you think law enforcement has changed
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: since you entered the field years ago.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I think law enforcement has changed, just like society has changed.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: When I grew up, you didn't question adults when they
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: told you to do something. The teacher was always right.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: And my family, while I had and I have, very
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: loving parents, I was if somebody accused me of something
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I was, I was guilty either, even if I didn't
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: do it. I shouldn't have been there to have been
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: accused of period in the story, And we weren't as
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: at that time. When I was growing up, we weren't
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: as violent in graphic society as we are now. Right.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: And so you look at how times have changed. And
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: so when I first started, you there wasn't as much
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: high percentage of the population that that questioned your authority
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: and question what what what what you asked them to
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: do or what you told them to do. And through
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: various events in time that that mindset has changed and
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: and and now it's more so that that there's there's
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: a lack of respect for for law enforcement to listen
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: to what they do, and it becomes more of a debate,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: if you will, or a trap. And part of that
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: is is if we're being fair, is because you know, uh,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: there have been some events that have that have violated
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: the public's trust. Right. Some of that has been as
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: we become a more ligigious society and in some cases
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: and and in some cases we're society has just evolved
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: that not only do we we question leadership or question authority,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: but we defy it openly sometimes just to see what
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: will happen. So things when I, like I said, when
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I start off in law enforcement, when you ask somebody
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: for a driver's license, they gave you their driver's license.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: You know, now they ask, what's your authority? Why are
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: you asking me what did I do tell me your
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: name and your badge number before I do this, and
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: you go through this rhetoric, and so it's much more
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: it's much more challenging, and it's a lot more difficult
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, to be a police officer now than
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: it was when I first started.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: All I know is I was raised. Yes, I had
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: an uncle who was the constable or sheriff. I'm not
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: sure what its title was, but back in Hitchcock, but
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: I was raised. If a police officer asked you a question,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: you answer it. You say yes, ma'am, no, ma'am, yes
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: or no, Sara sir. And if they stop you for something,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: you were wrong because, like you said, I was in
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: the wrong place. If I wouldn't have been there, I
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be in trouble. And if I came home one
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: time and I got a ticket a warning, and I'll
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: never forget. My dad goes, well, why did you get
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: a warning? I was like, and he goes, what did
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: you do? I said, well, I told him I had
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: to go to the restroom, and he took my car
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: keys away for weeks because I lied to the police
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: officer just to get out of a ticket, and I'm
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: glad it stuck with me because I was like, Okay,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: it's a big deal to do that. But I look
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: at people nowadays, it's not a big deal. But I
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: think it's just different. Just like if a teacher tells
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: you to sit down, you sit down. You don't say why,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: And so that's true.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: It's not just interaction with law enforcement, but I think
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: his interaction with everything, you know, the conduct that you
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: hear about that's taking place in our schools is is
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: just it's very disconcerting. And even when you watch behavior
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: and extracurricular active to use like sports and things like that,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: our behavior is just and our value system has changed.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: In my personal opinion, it's changed in a lot of
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: areas for the worst, not the better.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: But oh, I agree. I tell people I was a
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: soccer coach for my kids soccer when they were younger,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: and I didn't have problem with the kids, but the parents.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: There were so many parents I had to kick off
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: the field because they were the ones acting the fools.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: The kids are doing what they were supposed to, but
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: the parents were acting of fools, and I can't help
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: but wonder if that just kept going and trickled down
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: to the younger generations. I say that like, I'm really old,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: but so I am old. Everybody knows I'm old. But
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: have you ever had a case that you would consider
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: was your most challenging that you've ever worked on.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: There's there are a lot of cases that that I've
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: worked on as as a patrolman, as a special agent
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: with the OSI, as a detective with the Sheriff's office,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: and and so to bring one to specific to form
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: to speak about is really difficult for me. It's it's
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: not a good idea to try to take cases personally.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: But but but what you do. You care about the victims,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: you care about what what happens. You give it your best,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: and you work really hard. And and that's a heavy
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: burden that that the departments that have their patrolmen that
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: in that work their cases from cradle to grave, if
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: you will, from the initial call all the way through prosecution.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: It's just it's just, you know, it takes a special
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: person to be able to do that successfully. You go
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: to a larger department, that doesn't happen. But then in
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: the larger departments you have a detective that has a
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: caseload of thirty forty fifty cases at time, and and
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: that that makes it extremely, extremely challenging. We're on the
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: street when I when I work in a larger department.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: At the end of my ship, my reports were all done.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I went home and I got to go to bed
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: with the without any of extra work hanging over my head.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Now you still have to decompress and deal with what
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: you had during the previous shift. But but the cases
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: are are challenging, and it can be challenging because of
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: lack of evidence, because of conflicting witness statements, because of
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: lack of resources, the timing of the of the incident
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: when it was reported in things, there's there's lots of
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: variables that make a case very very challenging, and so
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I can't really put my finger on one specific one
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: for you, Terry.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: But no, that's not a bad thing, I think in
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: some ways, because people ask me all the time because
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: we cover so many different cases here on true crimeline
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: time but also in midday missing and they often I'll
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: get asked, well, which case sticks out the most, and
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I'm like, they're all horrible. They are all just horrific,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: because if they weren't, we wouldn't be talking about them,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: so it's hard to pick that one. So I kind
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: of get it. And I also like the fact that
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: you said that you need to decompress and try not
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: to make it where you live and breathe at twenty
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: four to seven because the burnout I can imagine if
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: you're doing it from what I call cradle to grave,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: which might not be the rest hut, but cradle to prosecution.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine a person doing that. That's just too much.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Well, it takes a big skill set, you know. I'll
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: tell you what becomes the most frustrating is when when
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: you have a case and we'll talk about crimes against persons,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: and not to say that crimes against property isn't important,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: but crimes against persons where someone is seriously injured. It's
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: very frustrating to not be able to identify the perpetrator,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: to not be able to gather evidence and be able
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: to sent it to the district attorney for a successful prosecution,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: because you feel like you've really done the victim of disservice.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: But on the other side of the equation is when
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: you have somebody that's accused of something, you want to
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: be able to show that they did it. Beyond a
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: reasonable doubt, or you want to be able to exonerate them, right,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: because nobody to walk around with the label that they
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: did something that they may or may not have done.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: And so those are the cases that caused me the
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: most grief. Is when you have someone who's accused of
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: doing something and you can't prove it beyond a reasonable
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: doubt or get successful prosecution. So you're not only doing
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: a disservice to the victim for closure and things like that,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: but you're also doing a disservice to the person who's
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: accused of that crime because they're labeled and they don't
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: get for lack of a better phrase, vindicated or cleared.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Even though we have a presumption of innocence in our
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: country and we follow that, it only takes a picture
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: on a newspaper or on the television to say that
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: you're arrested for such and such and such and such.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: And then even if you get exonerated, then the question
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: is is because you had a good attorney or is
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: it because you didn't you were truly innocent. And so
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: those are the cases that caused me the most angst.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: If you will that I worked when I have those cases.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Was it not being able to get a successful resolution
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: one way or the other.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, you just made me think of because I
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: always struggle with person of interest in a case or
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: they're a suspect, and I've often wondered, especially on our
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: missing person cases or murder cases that are unresolved, that like, Okay,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: why don't you just name them as a suspect. Well,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: just hearing you talk it, I never thought about the
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: fact that it's kind of a disservice. If we don't
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: have the evidence to prove that they did it, we
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be telling people that they did it, because that
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: follows them around. And I honestly never thought about it
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: from that side until you said that, Yeah, thanks for that.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Now I have to go back and rethink everything. So
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: that's okay, that's okay now, I think, and I'm pretty
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: sure that you have worked some drug cases. I think
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: if you're in law enforcement in the Great State of Texas,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: you've worked on drug cases. What would you say were
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: the most common type of drug cases you worked on.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Well, possession of controlled substances you'll find probably pretty frequently,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: as as as as a patrol officer or patrol deputy.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you may run into a delivery case. Once again,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: if you're working that department where you start everything from,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: we'll start from the beginning of the crime and the
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: reception of the crime to the successful prosecution and appeal
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: of the crime. You may work those When when I
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: worked in units that specialized in drug interdiction, we did
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of delivery cases. Controlled deliveries. We would we
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: would do bywalks where we would we would have either
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: through an undercover agent or a a undercover officer or
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: a confidential informant. We would we would make the prerequisite
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: number of buys from the house that or the location
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: that were required to and then we've grown a search
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: worn on it. And so those are the cases that
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I got to work on quite a bit.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: On what I guess not what is frustrating about drug cases,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: but what's different between like a drug case in a
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: crime against a person or property. How is it differ?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Well, there's there's there's criminal ways that it's different. Whereas
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: a crime against a person an individual is the victim
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: more times than not, or a drug crime it's against
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: the peace and dignity of the state of Texas. Right,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: So a lot of people say that that possession of
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: crack cocaine is a victims crime. But then I say
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: say that to somebody who has a crack cocaine addiction,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: that that they're not really the victim of the crime.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: And so it's the way that society views, you know,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: drug offenses, and you know, should someone be in jail
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: for twenty five years for selling you know, controlled substances
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: as opposed to somebody who only serves fifteen years for
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: aggravated assault or something like that. So it just goes
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: back to our moral standards and what we think is
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: egregious enough to warrant a maximum amount of.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Jail time and not I mean I agree with that.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I will say there was a time that I thought
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Texas I liked that we were hard on drug crimes.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: But then I remember, being young, probably eighteen or nineteen,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, why is this person going to serve
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: more time in jail for having two joints two marijuana
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: joints than somebody who injured a child? And I was
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: so young and so naive. I was like, well, that's
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: a victimless crime. Why are they not? And then I'll
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: never forget when it came out in the Houston Post
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: that that child was injured because of drugs and that's
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: where it led to. And I was like, oh, so
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: it's not really victimless, and then I started putting all
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: those little dots together.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and there's an impact you know, for for
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: for some people that that have a drug addiction that
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: they can't they can't afford, then then they resort to
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: crime to support that habit because you know, psychologically and
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: physiologically they have no choice but to get the drug
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: or or or try to go to some type of
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: detox facility and and and and beat that, and so
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: it leads to crime. And there's a direct correlation. So
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: I don't want people to think that I think that uh, using, possessing, distributing,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: you know, controlled substances or drugs, is it doesn't is
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: bad or isn't is not bad for society because it
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: definitely has its impacts not only on the user but
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: on the people that that aren't involved in it.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: So agreed. Now, have you ever had or been in
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: the situation where you've used informants where they played a
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: role in anything. Is that something you ever dealt with?
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, we we utilized confidential informants in the military quite
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: a bit. And we absolutely yes, and and and there's
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: different motivations and why people will come forward to do
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: that for us. Some will do it because they got caught.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: And so the way you played the game is give
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: up the person above you, and we would work our
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: way up the chain for lesser penalty if they if
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: they cooperated. We had some people that did it as
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: a motivation because they were looking to be paid.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: I was just getting ready to say, didn't they get
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: paid for being a confidential informant?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Some do and whether and then some do it because
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: they just have the desire to fulfill that role and
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: it meets their internal needs. Right. Utalizing confidential informants can
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: always be problematic when it goes to court. So a
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: lot of times we would have a confidential informant that
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: would make a couple of eyes and then introduce an
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: undercover officer, right, and then those would be the cases
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: that we would prosecute.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Because Yeah, Now, death investigations, not sure how many of
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: those you had to deal with. But what are some
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: key steps in a death investigation that the general public
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: may not be aware of?
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, there are so many key steps in a death investigation.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: You you know, there's there's no more egregious crime than
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: someone who was who was murdered.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Or I think most of us get our information, or
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: I do, and I know a lot of our normal
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: of yours. We watch Chicago PD, we watch Law and Order,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: so we know it's not totally relevant and that it's
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: make believe. So we think we know the steps, but
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: I know there's got to be more steps that we
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: don't know about.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Well, we'll talk a stereotypical cases. The amount of time
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: that you spend at the crime scene. You know, an
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: episode of Chicago PD or whatever is what forty eight
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: minutes maybe for an hour show with commercials and everything
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: like that, and you're going to spend much more time
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: than forty eight minutes in the crime scene is much
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: much less finding the suspect, interviewing the witnesses, interviewing the suspect,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: going the trial, and getting the conviction right. And so
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: it's the meticulous work that you do at the crime
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: scene because you only get one shot at it right
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: to do that, to have a keen sense of attention
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: to detail, to be able to have excellent active lifting skills,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: and being able to interview witnesses, not a victim, mom
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: sleen a murder, but witnesses, families, suspects, thinking outside the
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: box for evidence, taking the time to to to catalog that,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: to write it correctly, to do that. It's it's it's
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: it's the ultimate case, right and so normally that's why
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: you have seasoned detectives that that work those cases and
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: that have that experience and that go through all the
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: training that it takes to do those various roles and
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: rely on those resources. So, uh, to say that one
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: step is more important than the other, it's really hard
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: to put your finger on because everything that that you
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: do is very important. Probably not what you're looking for.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Terry, as far as no, that's great because it just
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: made me think that you're probably not just checking boxes
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: and saying, Okay, I did this, I did this, I
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: did this, because probably each one is different in each circumstance.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Well, there are some proverbial checklists, if you'll right, so
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: you know, like you want to know, you may want
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: to know if you don't have somebody that's doing that
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: for you, if you're in the house, what was the
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: temperature inside the house, you know, and things of that diagramming, photographing, uh,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: looking for for physical evidence, trace evidence, all of that takes.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: There's basics and standards, but there's not a template for
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: every case. I'm guessing, right, But there are.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Some things that that that that I've seen officers that
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: have used checklists to make sure that they don't forget
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: to do this or to do that. But but you're right,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: you know, no, no two cases are ever exactly similar.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: But but your methodology for processing a crime scene can be.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: It's a pretty good thing. I was never in law
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: enforcement because I like checklist, so I can remember what
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: to do. Now, what if you remember, are some of
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the biggest challenges that you've faced in investigating a crime
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: or in general.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's that's that's a pretty broadcast.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: My first one. My first thought and when that question
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: got sent me, I was like, my first thought was
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: people who don't trust the police and don't want to
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: talk to them. That to me seems to be the
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: biggest challenge in my mind, because if people won't give
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: you information, how do you do anything?
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Well? That that is that is a huge challenge, right,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: And so there are some there are some cultures that
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: that have a disherent trust for the law enforcement because
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: back in their country they've earned it, and there's some
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: areas that that perhaps here in the United States we
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: may have earned that that distrust. So, like I said
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: earlier about being able to interview, about being able to
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: establish a rapport, establishing that rapport is also establishing trust.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Being able to communicate, being able to listen, you know,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: can all be challenges if you deal with a with
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: a somebody that has English as a second language language,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: barriers can be very can be very lounging, and what
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: is said one way may mean something completely different, and
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: depending on who you're dealing with. So cultural diversity is
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: is huge when you when you when you're working and
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: being able to be successful in different neighborhoods and dealing
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: with different people. But people not wanting to get involved,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: not just because of their distrust of the police, if
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: you will, but for fear of repercussion, not wanting to
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: be the person, not wanting to be labeled or rat
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: or snitch, worried about what may happen to them, worried
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: about the other repercussions. As far as I don't want
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: to go to court, I don't want to testify, I
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: don't want to have to give up this time and
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: things like that. I just don't want to be involved.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: So there's there's a plethora of things that take place
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: and can be challenges, you know, working some cases. You
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: know another the service that the television does.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: For us is get ready to say does make it worse?
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: And you send off things to the lab and in
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: twenty two seconds you have a fingerprinting hit and it
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: doesn't work that way, or facial recognition when then five
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: seconds And so I love all.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Law enforcement has a penelope, like on what was it
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: criminal minds, I think, and she would just go hack
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: into all these systems and Penelope could tell you all
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: of this stuff. And I was like, if we could
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: ever really have a Penelope, I think the world would
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: be in a great place.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Well, and we may have some penelopes, right, But but
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: but there's a backlog and and things take time, and
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: so getting things through through crime labs take a you know,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: there's a backlog, and so you don't get some of
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: that stuff as quickly as possible. And there's there's ways
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: that you can you can ask for expedited you know,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: preference over other cases and things like that.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: But once again, everybody's doing that. I would think everybody
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: thinks their case is the most important, right right.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: And and another thing that I'll tell you that that
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: can be frustrating is you know, when you go to
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: a crime that it's your fifth crime of the day
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: as a police officer, and somebody through a brook through
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: a through a play glass window that costs several thousand dollars,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: you know, and you're saying, well, that happened, but the
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: house I just came from had everything stolen out of it,
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: and you know, these people are out twenty five thousand dollars.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: It's still the biggest crime that happened to that family
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: that had the window broken. Right. And so now they're wondering, well,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: why aren't you taking the brick as evidence and you
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: can get DNA off the brick and you can do this, Well,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: you know what for a class being misdemeanor criminal mischief case,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: We're not sending your rock off or to the lab
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: because it's just fit. There's just histhistical constraints that go
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: with that, austle. And so besides the backlog of cases,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: the probability of getting anything is extremely, extremely minimal. But
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: once again, television does as at a service because nobody
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: looks at those items, and you know, the writer writes
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: in that now we have this fingerprint and buila, we
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: have the person and they're in custody, and it goes
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: that route and it's just really not realistic.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I try to tell people would talking crime
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: stuff with them, I'm like, okay, but we've also got
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: to use common sense what I call common sense, just
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: like we all do in normal business. I have to
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: prioritize things where we're going to spend our dollars to
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: get the most stuff. And if I have to look
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: at a family who's had everything out of their house
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: stolen compared to a brick, the brick in them getting
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: a window broken is still important, but it has to
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: be deep prioritized. I don't know if law enforcement would
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: like that, but that's what I would say, you kind
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: of have to deprioritize it.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: In my book, Well, that happens, right, And so we
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: have what are called solvability factors. So what case you
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: actually go out of the patrol division and make it
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: to the detective division. If you report that your bicycle
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: was stolen three months ago, and you're reporting it today,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: you don't have a serial number for the bike, and
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: you don't have a suspect. We'll take the police report
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: more times than not, right, but it's not going anywhere.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: But then people are upset because I had my bike stolen.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: You aught didn't do anything, and you're busy drinking coffee
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: and eating donuts instead of finding the person who stole
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: my bike. And so you have to prioritize what your
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: cases are and when you look at what your crime,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: what your crime rate is, and how many cases you
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: have and how long are the cases not. Unfortunately, we
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: don't have the resources that every single report actually gets
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: a full fledged thorough and investigation because if there aren't
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: any leads, there aren't any solvability factors and there's nothing
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: to investigate. And that becomes very frustrating, and it becomes
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: for police, but it becomes frustrating for the victim too,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: especially if it's not their first occurrence. Right.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of a lose lose for both
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: because police want to but there's not stuff. Now, this
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: is a question that I threw in because those that
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: know me, I've decided to jump into missing person stuff.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: But I need to understand better why law enforcements sometimes
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: hold back information from the victims' families. Now with that question,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I say, my brain tells me, because you can't give
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: away everything in the case, you know, because the family
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: is going to talk to people. But the other side
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: of me is like, but can't you give them a
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: little bit more just to make it easier for them
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: to sleep? And so what's kind of the thought process
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: behind that?
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: as far as we can't if we divulge everything to
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: the family, then when it comes time for trial, the
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: defense is going to say, is that because you remember that?
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Is that because Officer al told you that? And and
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: that becomes problematic, right, And so we don't release everything
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: to the to to people outside the investigation that don't
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: have the proverbial need to know for the reasons, And
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: it's not because we're callous and we don't want the
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: family to have closure, but we want to maintain the
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: integrity of the investigation, so we keep a lot of
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: things close lift if you will. And then the other
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: side of the equation is is is while the family
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: thinks they want to hear some information, some of the facts,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: they probably don't want to because that's really not the
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: way that you want to. You want to remember your
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: loved one or have that on there. And I know
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: that you there's the struggle between can I get closure
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: or not? And I need these facts so that I
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: can move on with my life. But but so, but
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: the primary reason that we don't disclose that is because
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: we want to make sure that one witness a tells
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: us something. It's because witness they saw it and heard it,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: not because we planeted it on them or a family
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: member told them things like that. So that's one of
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: the reasons, Terry, that we don't give out every piece
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: of information. That we're pretty close lips about a lot
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: of the facts in cases, especially until it's being tried.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: And I will tell people that you can just file
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: the freedom of Information acts and get all of the information.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Even as a family member you think you can get
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: everything police is done, I'm going to just tell you
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: you can't. So when they say they can't tell you,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: they are still not going to give you because we
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: have filed some and they say this is still an
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: open and active investigation. We are not sharing this with you,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: or they send it to you and it's all been redacted.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, And the freedom of information is the federal side.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: I think it's the Public Information Act or Open Records
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: in Texas. But you're absolutely right, and the law says
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: what we have to release from what we don't, and
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: an active investigation, we have to release the synopsis, a
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: brief synopsis of the case, and those are usually about
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: five or six lines and they're very generic and that's it.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: And we do that because we also don't want to
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: disclose potential names, addresses, and identities of witnesses right or
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: persons of interest. But in the crime police reports there's
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: suspects and things like that, because once again it's very
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: important that the that the integrity of the investigation remains intact.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Now, I will say some of us not looking around forbody,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: have been lucky, and I think they had a new
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: hire or an intern when you file those Information Requests
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Act and they send you everything. Because I got lucky
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: and had that happen in a case, and I was
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: shocked when I got seventy five pages that came across.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: I was like, and then I got an email asking
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: for it back, and I was like, sorry, I already
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: downloaded that that's on you. Yes, yes, so yes, I
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: did the happy dance. Now, what advice if a family
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: came to you, because with us interviewing different family members
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: and having people on what as law enforcement, would you
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: give advice to the families about why you can't give
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: them all of the answers because I know I struggle
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: with it and I'm not in law enforcement.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, be clear, concise, try to assure the
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: family that the ultimate goal is to identify whoever committed
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: this crime and have the successful prosecution so that so
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: that they're held accountable for what they do. And in
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: order to do that, there's certain things that we just
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: cannot tell you. It's not because we don't want to.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: It's because we're trying to do the best service for
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: you and for society, and we want to take this
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: after off the street and sure that somebody else isn't
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: victimized while that's the same person. And what would really
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: be tough to live with for me is if I
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: made that mistake, and I did that, and then somebody
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: got free and was not held accountable, and then even
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: worse went on to victimize somebody else, and because my
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: failure to act accordingly and you know, we go through
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: different cycles of grief, and so a lot of times
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: actually when it's when it's new, the family doesn't understand,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: they don't want to understand, they're grieving, they're mad, and
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: so sometimes you know, the officers are the recipients of that,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: that grief and anger, and and we are trained and
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: we have to remember that that it's really not you
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: personally that they're frustrated with, it's the situation and to
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: try really hard not to uh not to take it personally.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: That's that's tough sometimes, right, but but that's the mindset
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: that you have to have if you're going to be
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: able to uh to uh persevere and and have a
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: long career.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: So, now, do you think news coverage, I know we've
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: talked about TV shows, but do you think news coverage
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: of police incidents of bad things that breaks trust? Do
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: you think generally the news coverage because of those few incidents,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: do you think they're fair or they biased? Wow, I
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: will just straight up tell you, I think it depends
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: on the state you live in, because I look at
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: news from everywhere and I can pretty much pull out
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: a map and tell you where they're more law enforcement friendly.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: And non law enforcement friendly, just based on me reading
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: news clips, so I personally think news goes after whatever
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: is most salacious.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Well, part of that's true, right, you want to have
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: people come in and view in, so you want to
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: hear about things. You know, if law enforcement misconduct was
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: something that happened every single day and made the news
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: every single day, maybe in time people would become immune
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: to it. And so when I see that on television,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: you know, without knowing all the facts, I don't know
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: if they're being biased or not right. They're asking tough questions.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: But what I've learned when you do with the media
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: is you be honest, You be timely, and if you
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: don't know, you don't know. And if you're not allowed
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: to say, you explain why you're not allowed to say.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: But if you you know, where we the old stance
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: used to be was that we would just say no comment, right,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: and it's investigation, And that just doesn't satisfy our society anymore.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: And so what we've learned is is to release information
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: in the appropriate timely manner that we can and to
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: when it's not jeopardizing a case. Release video release statements.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Do that let the public decide, but a lot of
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: it will come to what is your rapport with the
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: media at that time, and if your officer, if you
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: have an officer that makes a mistake and is out
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: of lines and does wrong. Nobody likes a dishonest officer
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: more than police officers because we all carry that. And
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: something can happen in the in the state of Washington
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: and people are gonna hold Texas police officers accountable for it,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: and vice versa. And so I will tell you nobody
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: to test the dishonest cop more than than than than
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: than police officers. Now, there's a difference between being dishonest
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: and rogue and being human and making mistakes, and that
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: happens too. The difference is when you make a mistake,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: you tell the truth right and you look at what
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: the consequences are. If you're dishonest, you lie, you hide,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: you cover up, and then you try to get other
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: people to do the same with you.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: So you know on that, But don't you think it's
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: human nature if you make a mistake, And I think
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: some people their first reaction is to hide their mistake.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: And so I struggle with people who in the initial
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: aspects say, yeah, that didn't happen or no, I didn't
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: do it. Then an hour later they're like, Okay, I've
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: had time to think about it, I've settled down. Yes
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I did it. I don't know how often that happens,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: but I think some people your first reaction, if it's
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: never happened to you before, is you instantly jumped to
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: be in defensive and deny it. And maybe I'm wrong,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: but I know I see it in the non law
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: enforcement world all the time. People instantly and then I'll
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: have people who come back and say, oh, yeah, that
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: I did it because they had time to settle down.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: So I think we maybe talking about the same thing.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: But when you're referring to an incident, what we call
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: a critical incident, right, it could be an officer involved shooting.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: So many things happen to you physiologically when you're under
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: that type of stress and things, and it really takes
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: you a period of anywhere from twenty four to forty
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: eight hours to come back to homeostasis, if you will,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: and be able to calmly and recollect things. And so
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: an officer that says I only fired my weapon three times,
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: but we have twelve cartridges on the ground and it's
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: fifteen you know around magazine only has three three rounds left.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: Were able to realize that he fired more than three times,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that he's that he's lying about how
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: many times he fired.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: It just hasn't hit yet. He hasn't had time to
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: process and de compress.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: And thanks right exactly because under stress, you your your
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: your perception of time, your your your uh, your your
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: span of vision diminishes, you get auditory exclusion. There are
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: so many things that your body goes through when when
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: it's fight flight or or freeze kicks in that that
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: that had that's police officer aren't immune to that either.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: So a lot of departments and and and uh. When
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: I was the chief art department, we would ask just
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: certain questions of an officer if they were involved in
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: in involved shooting, Which direction did you shoot? Can you
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: tell us this? This, this, but all the details and stuff.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: We we gave time for that to take place, because
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: what we don't want to do is put an officer
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: in an unfair position where he says, I fired three times,
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: and then later on he goes, wait a minute, no,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: I fired seven times? Well, which was it? Was it three?
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Or was it seven because they need a time to
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: decompress also, and so witnesses and victims will can experience
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: the same thing sometimes. So you know that goes.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: I always struggle because TV it looks like, say for
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Chicago p D, they always say, oh, you know, you
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: need to talk right now to I A because you
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: fired your gun right there before you leave the scene.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: And I watched them, like how their adrenaline is still pumping.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: They are just dealing with the fact they shot somebody.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: How could you ask them to be able to give
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: back what they did? And I just sit there and go,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: I as a person, that's why I'm glad I'm not
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: law enforcement because I would be like, I don't know,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: I need to take a minute, right, And.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: So that happens. And so you know, when there's an
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: officer involved shooting, it depends on the department's policy. A
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: lot of them in Texas will that are smaller will
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: have the Texas Rangers come in, and the rangers will
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: do the criminal side of the investigation. Because there's a
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: two pronged side. There's a criminal side and an internal side.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: The larger departments will do both, but both both investigations
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: are ran separately. And the left hand doesn't talk to
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: the right hand when that's happening because they're looking on
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: the criminal side to see is the officer culpable of
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: any criminal charges, and they present that to the District
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Attorney's office, who normally will present that to the grand jury,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: and the grand jury will decide whether the in diet
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: or no ability officer on the shooting. And then the
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: other side of the house is did the officer fallo
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: a policy procedure? Was our policy procedure, our training appropriate?
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: And so they look at all the other administrative size internally,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: and that's where you see the officers from professional standards
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: or internal affairs talk to the officer at that time.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Now, everybody who watches TV or reads the newspaper our
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: I guess online news knows that there has been officers
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: who have not done the right things, and police departments
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: and law enforcement has lost some trust with the community,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: and I think it spreads. What do you think law
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: enforcement and departments can do to rebuild trust with communities.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, there's there's a saying that says it
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: only takes one to shoot and wipe out a thousand
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: out of boys, right, and so everybody forgets all the
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: great that you did in that and that's no different.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: But but I think you know to say that you're
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: going to have a perfect officer who never does anything,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter how well of a background check
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: you do, what your screening process is, there will be
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: some people that that that that make it in that
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: that shouldn't be. But that's true in any other profession
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: that we look at. Right, So when you have something
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: that goes egregiously wrong like that, then then the only
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: way that the department can can can gain trust, and
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: it's tough, is that the leadership has to say this
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: officer was wrong, we don't condone what he's doing. We're
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: holding him accountable. He's going to be prosecuted to the
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: fullest extent of the law, and he's no better, no
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: different than anybody else. And then they have to do that,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: right and then hopefully you don't have another incident the
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: next day and another incident with a different officer the
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: next day, right, because now now there's a systemic cult, right,
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: that's that's taken place as opposed to you know once,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: you know once is too much, but but reality is
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: is you're you're never going to be one hundred percent
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: on everything, no matter how hard you try and how
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: bad you desire that. And so it's I think it's
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of how the department reacts to it and
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: how they handle that and and and and how they
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: work with the understanding that that when an officer does
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: do wrong, he still has the same rights as as
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: anybody else and it's entitled process.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: So well, and I think sometimes people that don't have
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: law enforcement in their family or they don't know anyone
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: who's been in law enforcement, I think they forget they're human,
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: just like with doctors. My ex husbands was a doctor.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, doctors are still human, just like law enforcement officers.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: They can make mistakes and it happens, and if they
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: own it, deal with it. You know that it happens.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: What do you think or do you think social media?
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's made it harder or easier for
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: the public to understand the realities of what's really happening?
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, social media is is is a beast right? And
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: you know we are an instant gratification society now, where
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: when I was growing up, if I wanted to spend
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: the night at a fran's house, I had to wait
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: till my dad came home, I had to wait till
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: dinner was over than ask permission, right, And I'm making
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: a lot more stringent than maybe than what it really was.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: But the reality is now is now your child texts
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: you it doesn't matter where you're at, and that they
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: want it. They want an answer right then and there,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: and and social media is the exact same way. As
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: soon as as soon as a post hits, if you
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: can't get in front of it, somebody will get in
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: front of it for you, and and they will, they
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: will spin the story and and it's it's it's it's
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: just baffling, and it's really hard to have the time
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: and the resources to fight that and have the wisdom
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: when do I engage and when do I not engage?
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Because there would be times on social media where you
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: can lay out every fact and you can show that
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: you are absolutely correct, but if people don't want to hear,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: they're not going to hear that. So, you know, we
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: have a lot of people that if they see it
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: on social media, they really think that's what happened, and
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of times that's just really not the truth.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: But unfortunately that's the times that we live in.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now, being a person who does these kind of
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: things on YouTube before we listen on podcasts, I I
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: do like to think that some good can come from
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: it if we do it in a respectful and look
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: at it from an advocacy or public information role. So
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: like we have turned down a lot of interviews because
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: it was more about salacious shaming people and things like that,
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: and we try to do it more from an informative thing.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: But I do know, and off the top of my head,
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: producer terrorist is probably gonna kill me that some social
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: media has helped give tips to help law enforcement. But
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: I want to say that's probably the exception and not
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: the role.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: No, there were times that when I was still in
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: law enforcement, we use social media and asked to help
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: identify a person of interest, right, and posted photos and
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: things like that, or we talked about a crime and
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: said if you have any information, please crime call crime
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: stop number, and you know there could be a reward
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera on there. Stuff like. So when
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: I say social media is a beast, it can be
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: the beast that helps you and it can be the
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: beast that that that that hinders you, Right, it's just
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: every We are such a social media society right now
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: that it's there, and I don't see it going anywhere,
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: so you know, you need to learn how to interact
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: with it. But it can be just as positive as
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: it can be negative. So absolutely, I will.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Say, I personally go to respond to a lot of
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: social media posts and I stop and think, Okay, am
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: I going to be happy with myself that I respond
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: to this in two hours? And then I save it
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: as a draft, and when I come back in two hours,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: I decide if I'm going to post it or if
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: I just delete it.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: So, looking back on your career in law enforcement, what
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: would you say you're most proud of? Wow, I mean
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: my first one and this is just me and I
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: say this to any officer that I speak with. I'm
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: glad you're still here because with knowing officers who have
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: been killed in the line of duty, that is my
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: first thought, because even have a brother in law enforcement,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: when they leave the house, you never know if they're
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: coming home. So I always say the first thing that
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: we should kind of be proud of it is that
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: they are still here with us. Well, and that's because
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: I'm sappy.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: Now that that's true. You know, I'm proud of a
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: lot of things that I did, and there's a few
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: things that I wish I would have done differently, right,
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: But that's true with all aspect. But I'm proud of
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: to have worked in this career field for thirty plus years.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: I'd like to think that I've made some positive impacts
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: and in people's lives. I enjoyed the training aspect of
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: my law enforcement career, and I'm just grateful to have
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: been able to do a job for the amount of
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: time that I wanted to that I enjoyed, and that
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: that Uh, I didn't get rich, but but it paid
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: me well, took care of my family, had benefits, I
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: have retirement, and I got to help out in the
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: community and and and play a role that that was
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: important to me. And and so I'm just I'm pleased
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: with my entire career.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Now, how did you go from law enforcement to your
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: current role in emergency management? Because that's how we met.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: So I want to know how you got from point
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: A two point C because you skip point B in
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: my brain.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm not sure what point B was, but uh.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Might B is retirement and you're on a beach in Florida.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: You're so very young.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: I'm too young to sit at home and not do
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: anything yet, at least that's what I tell myself.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: How do you like helping the community?
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: And and yes. And one of my roles before I
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: came over to the Bastrop County was I was the
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: emergency management coordinator for the City of Bastrop. It was
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: an additional job that I got to do. So I
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: got I got interested in that and it was once again,
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: like we said, serving the community in a different aspect.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: And one one the pace for the city, UH was
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: pretty high, and I was at a good point in
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: my career and I had a I wanted to take
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: off some time and spend it with my family and
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: UH and and do those types of things. So I
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: had already been doing emergency management and decided that I
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: could make the the transition from working as a as
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: a as a as a police officer and those other things.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: And I'd moved up in city management and so it
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: wasn't just police that I was doing to emergency management.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: And UH, it still meets my needs. Not every day
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: is the same in emergency management. No. Two emergencies are
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: the same. I get to help people. I get to
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: work with wonderful people. I have a great team in
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: a community that that I care very much about, and
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: that's a very resist b and strong community that that
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: perseveres through anything and everything. And so and I'm just
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: I think I would get bored just sitting at home
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: all day.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: I can't. I mean, I can't sit at home all day.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: I just got messaged on the side, not everybody knows
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: what emergency management is. So I'm sitting here thinking everybody
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: should know what that is, because I know, you know
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: two percent. What does emergency management consist of?
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: Well, the short answer is is emergency management plans, prepares, trains,
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: responds to, recovers from, and mitigates natural and man made
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: disasters that take place in our community.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Now, what would you tell a young person who was
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: wanting to go into law enforcement today? What advice would
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: you give them? Because even I asked that, and I
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: guess I shouldn't just say law enforcement. Well, we'll start
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: with law enforcement and then we can move over to
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: emergency management because they have a lot of similarities, but
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: yet they're very different.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: They do knowledge is power. The day that you think
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: that you know everything is the day that you should
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: probably stop. Realize that what you do in law enforcement
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: and you have a literally half a second or less
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: to make a decision. People will have hours, days, weeks, months,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: years to second guess you. To try to leave work
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: at home, work at work and home at home, and
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: to do something besides being a police officer twenty four
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: hours a day. Take care of your family, have a hobby,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: and do other things so that you have balance in
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: your life. That would be the and that's what we
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: try to tell the creuits that were coming into the
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: academy is that that's a very important aspect to be successful.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: I never thought about the hobby's aspect. I always just
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: thought of go home, take care of your family. But
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: now to think about it, having a hobby is probably
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: a good thing because you need something for yourself too,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: just besides the public and your family.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: The last thing that I want to say is, you
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: know is that police officers can be clickish, right. And
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: the reason they are is because when I used to
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: go to out the places and stuff like that and
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: people ask me what I did, I tell them I
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: was work for a telephone company or something. Because as
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: soon as they find out that you're a police officer,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: they want to talk about a ticket they got or
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: something that, this and that, And it's really hard to
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: be yourself, right, So we would naturally flock together and
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: hang out together all the time. And while the camaraderie
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: is very important and things like that, I also think
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: it's important to have balance and have other friends that
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: do other things besides just being in law enforcement, because
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: you deal with about ninety percent of your time, you
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: deal with the ten percent of society that is breaking
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: the law right and I'm using these numbers just for illustrating,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: but and it can make you cynical that where you
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: think everybody is a criminal and everybody is wrong, and
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: that's not the case. There are far more and better
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: people than there are bad people. But when you spend
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: all your time with that and you stay in that
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: environment all the time, it can it can it can
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: wear on you. So that's why I feel it's really
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: important for people, especially now starting off in law enforcement,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: that they have that camaraderie and they have that togetherness
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: and that bond in law enforcement, but that they also
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: have people that are outside of that so that they
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: keep that balance. Man.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, I just laughed because I just thought because double H.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: And just so you know, we on here we call
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: my spouse is double H. Twitch stands for Handsome Hobby.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: But him and my oldest son, Jeffa, they are like, Mom,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: you need to get out of the true crime world.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: You need to go drink wine, just to drink wine
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: and take a break because you know way too many
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: stats and way too many things. And hearing you, I'm like, okay,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: maybe I should like expand my friend networks to the
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: people who don't want to talk about what's going on
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: in the news and about true crime because I tend
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: to live in that world a little bit. Now, I
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: want before we wrap up because we're gonna get to questions.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: If there's any I think we have one that people
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: have asked. But I do want to cover before we
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: wrap up because I know it's important to you and
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: to others talking about social media and how law enforcement
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: and emergency management handle media communication and share information with
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: the public on social media. And the reason I wanted
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: to talk about that is because following the page in
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: Bastrop County when there's a fire, the fact that people
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: want information every five minutes when you are out trying
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: to handle the situation makes me personally insane. So I
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: think other people feel the same way, but I also
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: feel the same way. Like New Year's when the thing
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: happened in New Orleans with the guy on Bourbon Street,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: I became that person reading social media every five minutes,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: and I had to take a step back and say,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: wait a minute. They're doing their job. They can't update
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: every five minutes for me. So what would you say
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: to general viewers public? How y'all handle that?
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: On the back end, we understand that we are an
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: information meeting society, and especially when you and or your
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: loved ones are in harm's way, you want as much
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: information as possible, and you want it right now, this second,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: And so there has to be a balance between being
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: able to work the problem and then also communicate the
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: problem right and in emergency management, under the process for
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: the incident Command system and everything, the unified Commander or
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: the command or the incident commander approves all the public
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: information that we put out to make sure that it's timely,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: that it's accurate. We have a mantra in Bastrop County
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: where we work together and we want one message, one team,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: so we identify who that's going to be. We put
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: that out. On Saturday, we got report of the fire
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: that happened in the LBA area in Bastrop County. We
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: posted on social media that we were aware of it
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: and that we were responding to it. Once we got
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: there and got a size up and everything, we tried
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: to provide that information and we try to put information
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: out every hour to hour and a half, possibly two hours,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: and then that temple slows down when that when the
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: when the threat mitigates, right, And to think that, you know,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: if I'm waiting sixty minutes for an update, that's just
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: unacceptable when I'm worried about my parents' house burning down
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: or something like that going on. But the reality is
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: in order to make what's going on and happening and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: realizing that that that it's a dynamic situation when you're
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: fighting fire and the wind shifts and things happen and
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: things like that, that you know why, we feel that
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: it's very important that that that the public knows what's
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: taking place. We feel that that being successful and stopping
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: the fire or whatever thread is is has a priority
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: over that. And so we got to find a balance
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: in there, and so that that is what we try
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: to do, and we put that, we put them the
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: information out and when we say this is the last
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: update for the evening unless something else happens, that doesn't
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: mean that we just forget about the fire that firefighters
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: have left or anything like that. But reality, if if
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: if the situation has you know, fires burn and certain
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: things for a fire to go out, and uh and uh,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: if there's not going to be a dynamic change, then
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: we're not going to post because we also, right wrong
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: or indifferent, need to sleep, we need to recover, and
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: we need to do things also and and uh and
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: you never know how long an event's going to take place.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: So we understand that that both sides of the of
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: the of the equation where I want the time right away.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: And and I'm sure that if if it was in
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: an area an event was taking place where where my
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: family and my loved ones and my and in there,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: I probably would not It's very possible that I wouldn't
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: be as tolerant as as we're asking people to be.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: But we got to find a balance in between.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: That, right Well, I actually discussed it with somebody today
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: who's not law enforcement emergency management is in the medical field.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: And I laughed because she goes, so, what you're saying
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: is you think the doctor should stop doing surgery on
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: your loved one to come out and give you an update,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: or you want him to tell the nurse to stop
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: giving him the devices he needs to save your loved
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: one to come out and give you an update. And
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: I went, I had never thought of it that way,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: and considering my volunteer activities, I felt about this small
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: that I never thought of it that way. I think
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: about it knowing what you guys are doing, and I
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: was like, I never thought of it from that aspect
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: that you have to stop doing something.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: I like that analogy, and Sonna, I'm gonna use it.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: So thanks you.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I about fell over today because I was like, well,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: I felled this big asking this question. Well, I want
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: to say thank you. I do know Tara producer Tara said,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: we have one question to ask and she is gonna
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: pop it up on the screen for us. So Lady
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: and Gray said, my city just settled a lawsuit with
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: victims of alleged sa I'm assuming you know what that is.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: The PD was audit in in a dystemic failure, as
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: Essay Crimes investigation found, they have new mandatory training. Is
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: this common?
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: So forgive me, but I don't know what absolutely so
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: on a lot.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: Of social media, we try not to say sexual assault.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: That's what I thought.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: I would that it's not San Antonio because when I
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: started doing this, I thought it was San Antonio. But yes,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: so is mandatory training common they find failures, Like if
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: they find failures in the Department of Law Enforcement, do
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: they come back and say, all of you need to
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: be retrained. Our training was wrong. Let's do something different.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: Is that I mean, I would think it's common. So
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: figured out what you did wrong? You gotta fix it right?
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, and and and so you know, I haven't been
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: in law enforcement for five years, so I won't pretend
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: to know exactly what's happening. On the polls. In law
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: enforcement today, it was hard leading and so when I
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: distanced myself, I tried to rate the ties no matter
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: how bad.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: Five years is like a lifetime, but the way the
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: world has changed, I'm going to just be honest and
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: tell you five years is like a lifetime.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: But I will tell you that if the state if
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: an investigation reveals that there's a systemic problem that could
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: potentially be across the state, and things like that. They
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: can mandate training that every two years, a peace officer
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: in Texas has to take forty hours of continuing education,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: and they may mandate that four hours or eight hours
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: or whatever that timeframe may be is involved in this
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: particular topic, right, And so you know, when I was
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: in the Air Force Office of a Special Investigations, there
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: was a time where some of the Department of Defense
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: was found that maybe they were insensitive to victims of
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: essay and that you could never question Before you could
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: question the victim about their story or about the credibility
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: of their story, it had to go all the way
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: up to headquarters for approval because there were some instances
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: where victims were we're being I don't want to use
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: the word bullied, but we're being spoken to in a
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: manner where then all of a sudden they rescinded their account.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: And some will say they rescinded their account because it
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: wasn't true, but others will say they rescinded their account
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: because they're going through secondary and tertiary victimization. So unfortunately,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: to your the for the question, I can't speak intelligently
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: as far as if there's a systemic failure of essay
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: crimes being conducted in our area or in the state.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, But I mean when I read that from Lady
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: and Gray, my first thought was, even in my day job,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: if we find a department within the company that there's issues,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: we look at where the ball was dropped, what tools
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: did we not give them to perform appropriately, and we
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: go look at what training and what resources we need
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: to give them. So when I looked at that, I
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: look at it from that business aspect. Yes, you're still humans.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: You don't know what you don't know, and then when
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: you know it, you figure out what you need to
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: do to fix it.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, But like I said, unfortunately I don't know the
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: facts of the case. I haven't been anything a while,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: so I can't really answer that intelligently.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I want to say thank you so much
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: for coming on tonight and letting me ask you so
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: many questions. I have one last question as we wrap up,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: and it is a question that is going to surprise
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: you probably what is your favorite hobby outside of your job.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: It's not a hobby, it's an advocation. I really enjoy
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: sports officiating. So I officiate baseball and football from the
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: middle school level all the way up to through high school,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: some swimmer college, and some semi pro football. And uh,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: I enjoy the challenges of doing that and and and
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: getting to be interactive and be a part of that.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: So not a hobby but an applications.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: I also, I mean I call it a hobby because
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: you like to do it. So to me, hobbies are.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: Things you like to do, right, And I call it
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: an application because it's not just that I like to do,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: but because while we're paid some for it, that's a
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: big impact on on people. And so if I have
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: a hobby of painting and I make a mistake on painting,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: that's one thing. If if I make a mistake on
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: a on a call, it may mean the difference between
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: a team advancing the playoffs or not.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: So I'll see another thing I learned. I didn't think
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: you got paid for officiating until you hit a high school.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: And above what some people do volunteer and and and
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: and but uh, for for what I do, we actually
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: get paid.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: I think it's brave because the parents, after just doing
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: a couple of years of soccer. I don't want to
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: deal with parents. So I want to say thank you
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: so much for coming on. Truly appreciate you taking time
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: out of your evening to join us.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for inviting me. I enjoyed it. I
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: appreciate you.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: No, thank you, and guys, be sure to join us
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: this Sunday. Yes, we are still doing our special where
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: JT and I, along with our producer Tara, will continue
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: our special investigation series into the Zizian Cult unveiled. And guys,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you if you haven't listened to
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: episode one or watched it, you need to because if
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: it wasn't for producer Terra, my head would still be
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: spinning because it is beyond that shit crazy and bunny
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: boiler crazy. So we are still doing this special series.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: We've got one episode we did this past Sunday. We
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: will be doing it for the next six to seven Sundays,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: depending on how long we need to put the information.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: I honestly think we could do an episode every Sunday
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: for the next twelve months and still not cover everything.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: So if you're interested in cult stuff, you need to
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: go and listen or watch. And I want to also
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: ask you guys, please remember to like subscribe and hit
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: that notification bell so that you know when we are live.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: True Crime and Wine Time is live every Thursday at
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: eight pm Central Standard Time. And guys, I just got
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: asked in the last couple of days, what's the difference
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: between CST and CDT. I'm going to tell you minute
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: all the time. I am not a natural blonde, but
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: obviously I need to fix my brain. I have always
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: said CST. I know there's a difference between daylight savings
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: and standard time. I do not have the brain capacity
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: to figure that out, so I am going to always
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: say CST. If y'all want to come at me, that's great.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: If you want to email me weekly and remind me
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: where we're at, I will say please do so because
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: I am not good at that. Also, I do Midday
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: Missing every Monday and Wednesday, where we cover missing person
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: cases that are not getting the attention that they deserve.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: We at least once or twice a month have family
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: members on that share their loved ones stories. We also
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: will have an update on our special investigation into the
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: Chase Lackey case coming up soon. We are also planning
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: a special in person live event in Crosby, Texas for
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: this summer where we will cover chases event. So I
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: would like to ask you all please follow us on
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: all social media. You do get to see pictures of
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: my bruised feet and JT's craziness. And we're going to
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: start putting some outtakes from our staff meetings because they
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: are pretty funny. And I do have some great screenshot
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: photos I've taken a producer, Tara, and she can't get
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: them from me, so I will be sharing them because
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: she won't be able to stop me. So as always, guys,
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you and please stay safe, watch
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: out for crime, speak up, and I don't have much
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: wine left, but as you know, enjoy your wine time. Guys,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: have a great weekend and we'll see you on Sunday.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: To Live, to Grow Up